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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Cat and I am

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Speaker 1: the host here. And if you are unfamiliar with me

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Speaker 1: or new to the podcast and you were like who

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Speaker 1: are you? I am a human and also a therapist

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Speaker 1: that lives and works in Nashville who started a podcast

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago to get the conversations that

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Speaker 1: I was having both in my head and in my

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Speaker 1: office out into the world. And I like to start

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Speaker 1: each episode out reminding everybody that while I'm a therapist,

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Speaker 1: and while you would probably benefit from therapy, because what

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Speaker 1: human wouldn't, this is not therapy nor a substitute for it. However,

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Speaker 1: it might guide you to start that process for yourself

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Speaker 1: one day. Now, this is a very special episode. I'm

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Speaker 1: very excited about this episode because is today. I have

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Speaker 1: Seanna Niquist on the show, and I was both very

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Speaker 1: nervous and very excited to get to talk with her

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago. So I've been really excited

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Speaker 1: about finally getting this episode in this conversation out to you.

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Speaker 1: If you are unfamiliar with who Shana is, she is

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Speaker 1: the New York Times bestselling author of cold tangerines, bittersweet

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Speaker 1: bread and wine, savor one that you guys definitely know,

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Speaker 1: present over perfect and her new book that comes out

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Speaker 1: April twelve. I guess I haven't learned that yet. And

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Speaker 1: if you have not pre ordered that book, I suggest

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Speaker 1: you go do that because it is good and she

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Speaker 1: is an amazing person. Shanna is married to her husband, Aaron,

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Speaker 1: and they live in New York City with their two kids,

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Speaker 1: Henry and Mac. And I want to say that she

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Speaker 1: is a freaking delight. I don't have another order to

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Speaker 1: describe her. I think that one fits pretty well. I

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Speaker 1: will forever treasure my time spent with her, and I

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Speaker 1: was so grateful that I got to actually talk to her.

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Speaker 1: It was over zoomed, but you know what, that counts

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Speaker 1: these days a lot more than used to. Probably it

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Speaker 1: felt like I was really in a room with her.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not going to stall anymore. And like fan

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Speaker 1: girl over here, I'm just going to let you guys

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Speaker 1: listen to the conversation I had with her. I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy it as much as I did. So here

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Speaker 1: is my conversation with Sean Anquist. Welcome Shanna, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to get to talk to you because

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Speaker 1: your book Present Over Perfect. I don't know anybody who

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Speaker 1: hasn't heard of it or read it. And so I

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Speaker 1: heard you had a new book coming out, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh, this is obviously going to

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Speaker 1: be another great book. But I'm excited to get to

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Speaker 1: talk to you to talk about that book. But also,

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Speaker 1: and I don't really know why, this is the one

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Speaker 1: thing that really it's like the one quote and I

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Speaker 1: don't even know if i'll quote it right that stuck

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Speaker 1: out from your book Present over Perfect that hit me.

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Speaker 1: It was like buried in a paragraph, in a sentence.

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Speaker 1: You said something like I was sick of being strung

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Speaker 1: out on the drug of exhaustion. I list into your book,

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Speaker 1: which you have a what I would call a very

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Speaker 1: soothing voice, So you're welcome. So if anybody's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I haven't read that book yet, listened to it, because

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Speaker 1: that was really helpful for me to to hear the

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Speaker 1: authors speak their own words. But I paused it when

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Speaker 1: you said that, and I remember being like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: it like hit me in the gut, like you saying

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Speaker 1: I was tired of being strung out on exhaustion and

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Speaker 1: I didn't ever think of like work as or doing

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Speaker 1: things as a drug, and this exhausted feeling as a drug.

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Speaker 1: And I can speak for me, and I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that I surround myself with is I

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Speaker 1: almost would get like high off of telling people all

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Speaker 1: the things I was doing, which I hate. I hate

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Speaker 1: saying that. I hate saying that, but I would be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm so busy, I have this many clients and I

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Speaker 1: have to do this, and it's like, actually, that's like annoying.

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Speaker 1: That's not something that I'm like, oh, like look at

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Speaker 1: you go. And I wasn't even enjoying it. So all

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Speaker 1: that to say, I wanted to start here because that

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Speaker 1: hit me so deep. I want to hear you're a

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Speaker 1: little bit from you and like let the listeners know too,

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Speaker 1: because I think in the world of hustle culture, which

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Speaker 1: we're like still deeply embedded in, were like trying to

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Speaker 1: get out of it, but it's still all around us,

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Speaker 1: and since it's so easy to get stuck in that,

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Speaker 1: I want to hear from you on like how did

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Speaker 1: you notice you were in that space? And then on

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Speaker 1: the other side of it, like how did you wake

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Speaker 1: up from that? Like busy achievement mindset, and and how

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Speaker 1: did you get to where you are now? Before we

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Speaker 1: get into anything else, because that was for me such

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Speaker 1: an important moment. Well, thank you. Like almost anything in life,

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Speaker 1: there are like little whispers you should listen to them,

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Speaker 1: or or then there's like the voice level, and then

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Speaker 1: there's the yelling, and then there's the screaming right when

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Speaker 1: something needs to change in your life. And I did

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Speaker 1: not listen to anything except the screaming right. I just

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Speaker 1: worked and worked and worked. And I grew up, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the Midwest in a very achievement oriented culture, where like,

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Speaker 1: working hard was part of my identity and it was

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Speaker 1: such a privilege to get to do good work that

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Speaker 1: I loved. And publishing has its own, like really weird

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Speaker 1: hustle culture associated with it, where like you want to

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Speaker 1: be known for being someone who can deliver and who

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Speaker 1: always says yes, and it was always up for the

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Speaker 1: next thing. And so when I look back, there were

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Speaker 1: one million little whisper warning signs that I bypassed. The

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Speaker 1: big thing that I noticed that the big warning flag

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Speaker 1: was I stopped being able to like, see and feel

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Speaker 1: and taste my own life. It's like I was so

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Speaker 1: numb from so much exhaustion and so much output that

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Speaker 1: the life I wanted so badly it felt like I

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Speaker 1: was watching it from behind a thick pane of glass,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, like, this isn't I've lost my way

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Speaker 1: I am. I'm out of alignment with my values. This

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Speaker 1: is not the person I want to be. What I

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Speaker 1: want is to have like a rich, juicy, lovely connected,

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Speaker 1: warm life. What I am is tired and not so

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Speaker 1: There are no overnight like I wish there was like

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Speaker 1: an overnight solution for that. It took about eighteen months

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Speaker 1: of therapy and learning and relearning and making small daily

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Speaker 1: changes in my schedule and talking to people in my life.

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Speaker 1: That was a lot of it. You know. We talked

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Speaker 1: about how we train people, how we want to be treated. Right.

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Speaker 1: I had told absolutely everybody in my life, I'm your girl,

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Speaker 1: I'll come through. I'll never say no, I will always

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Speaker 1: do the thing you want me to do. There's never

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Speaker 1: too much. All of a sudden, I had to have

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Speaker 1: conversations with everyone from my husband to my best girlfriends

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Speaker 1: to my publisher and say like, I'm gonna do things

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Speaker 1: a really different way, and I'm probably gonna do it badly,

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Speaker 1: like the first nine or ten times, but it really

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Speaker 1: need your help on this, and he needs you to

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Speaker 1: understand that it comes from some deeply held values that

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Speaker 1: I've been out of alignment with. And so you're gonna

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Speaker 1: hear me say something I've never said before, and it's no,

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna be as hard for me as it

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Speaker 1: is for you, and it's gonna be really awkward. And

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Speaker 1: I probably, like the a couple of times I tried

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Speaker 1: to say no, especially professionally. I think I said it

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Speaker 1: so badly. They were like, I don't understand what you

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Speaker 1: just what actually are you saying? They were like, I

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Speaker 1: hear you saying a lot of words. Are you coming

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Speaker 1: to that event? And I was like no, I said,

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Speaker 1: I said no so clearly. They were like, not clearly. Actually,

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Speaker 1: every part of my life had to change in order

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Speaker 1: to get back to those core values. But it was

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Speaker 1: one of the most worthwhile change processes I've ever been

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Speaker 1: a part of in my life. And I would say,

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Speaker 1: of course, there are still times when I get a

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Speaker 1: little too busy, or you know, things have been flow

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but I have not since gone back

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Speaker 1: to that way of living where I am what I do.

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Speaker 1: I am what I can make, and the what I'm

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Speaker 1: producing mattered more than who I am on the inside.

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Speaker 1: I'm a better parent than I was, partner than I was,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really grateful to be able to have made

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Speaker 1: those shifts. I wonder because I think I might be

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Speaker 1: like you were in the sense that when I say no,

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Speaker 1: I say no, but then I'm like, but I just

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Speaker 1: want you to know that I want to be able

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Speaker 1: to do this, and you know what, actually like if

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Speaker 1: maybe we can do it later, and I just can't

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Speaker 1: just make it a sentence, I'd have to like keep

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Speaker 1: going to like soften the blow. So I am curious

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Speaker 1: because saying no, I think you just have to step

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Speaker 1: into this uncomfortable like no, embrace yourself for somebody's feelings

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Speaker 1: being hurt. I'm thinking about not even professionally, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about socially, like if somebody asked me to hang out.

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Speaker 1: I want to be the friend that's always able to

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Speaker 1: do stuff, but a lot of the times at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, I want to do nothing. So

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Speaker 1: then I make plans and then I'm mad that I

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Speaker 1: made the plans. But I don't want to hurt my

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Speaker 1: friends feelings. So how did you like cope like sit

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Speaker 1: with a discomfort until it became like more of a

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Speaker 1: normal experience. I mean, it's just repetitions. It's like learning

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Speaker 1: something new at the gym. It's horribly awkward at first,

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Speaker 1: and it gets absolutely easier over time. The other that

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Speaker 1: I would say, the two things that helped me were

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Speaker 1: being really clear on my values and sometimes sharing those

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Speaker 1: with people and sometimes not, but then also letting there

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Speaker 1: be a loving, healthy plan B Like, for example, like

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Speaker 1: right now in my life, parenting schedules are different, and

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Speaker 1: work schedules are different, And I have a couple of

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Speaker 1: friends where the time that they can hang out mostly

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Speaker 1: is like pretty late night, so like they would just

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Speaker 1: love to meet for a glass of wine at ten pm,

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Speaker 1: Like that's their zone, and because that's when their kids

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Speaker 1: are in bed, it's when they finally kind of are

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Speaker 1: whatever they And I'm like, oh my gosh, I love

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Speaker 1: you so much. I can't go anywhere at ten pm.

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Speaker 1: I can't do that. But I realized that it was

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Speaker 1: like causing me like a tiny little bit of stress

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Speaker 1: that every time I was invited, I would say no.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't want them to think like like she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to be there, or she's just like to whatever,

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Speaker 1: And so I finally said, like, hey, I just need

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Speaker 1: to let you know. It's not like I go out

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Speaker 1: with my other friends at ten pm. I don't go

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Speaker 1: anywhere anywhere. This is like a no fly zone for me.

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Speaker 1: But it really care about you. And if you were

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Speaker 1: ever up for like a Saturday afternoon, even if we

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Speaker 1: had to schedule it out a little bit, I would

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Speaker 1: love that. That'd be really fun. And so then you

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Speaker 1: take it out of like the weirdness of like why

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Speaker 1: is she always saying no. I'm saying no because I

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Speaker 1: don't stay up that late, not because I don't like you,

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Speaker 1: not because I don't think your thing is fun because

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Speaker 1: I out with other people. I would explain that thing

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Speaker 1: like this part of my value is I have to

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Speaker 1: go to bed a little bit earlier apparently than you do.

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Speaker 1: And then here's here's another kind of plan B. So

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Speaker 1: I would say, letting someone into the values that drive

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Speaker 1: your no and then having a plan B that's really

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Speaker 1: loving and not just like I can't say no, so

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say no next time, Like here's an actual

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Speaker 1: thing that would work for me that's been really helpful

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Speaker 1: for me here, and you say the value part that

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Speaker 1: sticks out because I'm sitting here thinking, I guess it

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Speaker 1: might feel better to say no, set a boundary if

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Speaker 1: I know, like why I'm doing it. If it's because

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Speaker 1: because if it feels like I just don't feel like it,

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Speaker 1: But no, it's because I value my sleep or I

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Speaker 1: value having energy in the morning for X y Z.

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Speaker 1: It's like I'm not being mean, but and for work

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Speaker 1: being able to say no to certain things because I

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Speaker 1: value these kinds of experiences over this. That feels good.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, I think I know my values are

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Speaker 1: but do I Yeah, well you do because you're making

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Speaker 1: a choice based on them, right, because maybe said them

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Speaker 1: out loud. Right, so you get the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: and what your body and your spirit need after a

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Speaker 1: full work day is downtime. You value downtime, You value

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Speaker 1: being able to recharge. So your your body, and your

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Speaker 1: choices are telling you. But it's helpful sometimes to quantify

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Speaker 1: it with a statement. Even so say to those friends like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I really love hanging out with you at night, but

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you when I get to the

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Speaker 1: end of a work day, I've noticed that I need

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Speaker 1: two or three hours of like real specific downtime. I

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Speaker 1: also would say, unfortunately, in our culture, people are really

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Speaker 1: cool about people who say no because of their kids

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Speaker 1: or because of their partner, and they're really terrible about

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Speaker 1: letting single people not show up to stuff. Right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that is so true. It's like, I totally get it

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Speaker 1: if my friend who's married can't come or my friend

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Speaker 1: who has kids. But I'm like, I do it to

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Speaker 1: my friends, even though I don't want that to be

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Speaker 1: done to be Yeah, but I mean I really so.

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Speaker 1: We have this, you know, group of we just adore

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Speaker 1: and we all live in the same kind of little building,

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Speaker 1: and one thing that we work hard on together is

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Speaker 1: like one of the single men has just as much

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Speaker 1: right to not show up to something as the mama

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Speaker 1: four kids. Right, he could be just as busy or

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Speaker 1: max or need a nap, or want to help with

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Speaker 1: someone else, or want to do nothing. He doesn't even

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Speaker 1: have to tell us his time and his energy are

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Speaker 1: worth protecting as much as a parent with a full

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Speaker 1: time job. Like it, just it's important that single people

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Speaker 1: get to say I get to be the boss of

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Speaker 1: my own life and choices in the same way that

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Speaker 1: married people do, and parents do. I'm so glad you

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Speaker 1: said that out loud. That reminds me of that whole

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Speaker 1: idea of like, my free time is not my availability,

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Speaker 1: and it's so true. Yes, I might have more time

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Speaker 1: to decide freely on my own what to do with

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that I don't still get to

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Speaker 1: have ownership over those decisions A dent. Yeah, I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you said that. Okay, So I want to move into

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Speaker 1: what's happening now for you because you have a new

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Speaker 1: book coming out April twelve, and I want to start

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Speaker 1: just with the title, because if I would have known

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Speaker 1: nothing and I just would have read this title, I

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Speaker 1: would have been like, I would like five hundred copies

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Speaker 1: of this book and I would like to give it

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Speaker 1: to everybody. I think. It's like, yeah, so I want

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Speaker 1: to hear like you speak about just the title of

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Speaker 1: that I guess I haven't learned that yet, and where

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Speaker 1: that phrase came from, and then how that phrase has

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Speaker 1: been important to you, so important that you have this

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Speaker 1: book written about it. The phrase came about initially our

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Speaker 1: family moved from the suburbs of Chicago to Manhattan, and

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Speaker 1: our kids started new schools like mid year in two

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Speaker 1: different schools, to different neighborhoods, so much change for them,

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Speaker 1: and every day they were coming home with all these

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Speaker 1: new questions and and I realized that there were like

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Speaker 1: specific questions, but underneath the questions there was starting to

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Speaker 1: be this kind of building up sense of like, am

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Speaker 1: I falling behind? Is there a fundamental world of knowledge

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Speaker 1: that I cannot access? Am I dumb? Am I? And

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Speaker 1: I was like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait a minute, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we need to take this very seriously. This isn't like

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Speaker 1: why is it so hard to find my locker? This

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Speaker 1: is like, is there something wrong with me for not

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Speaker 1: knowing how to do these things? And so we, you know,

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Speaker 1: started to have really open family conversations about it. And

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Speaker 1: I wrote the phrase I guess I hadn't learned that yet,

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Speaker 1: and I put it on a little piece of paper

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Speaker 1: and I put it in our our little living room wall,

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Speaker 1: and I said, listen, here's the deal. This isn't something

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Speaker 1: just YouTube boys are experiencing. It's something both you boys

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Speaker 1: and mom and dad are experiencing. And the nature of

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Speaker 1: being the nature of being a beginner, the nature of

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Speaker 1: learning about something you haven't done before, is that every

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Speaker 1: single day, at least once a day, you have to

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Speaker 1: say that phrase. I guess I haven't learned that yet.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's a very basic kind of

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Speaker 1: version of like growth mindset. Right, instead of saying like

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Speaker 1: I don't know period, I guess I'll never know. There

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Speaker 1: is no knowing. I will always feel in the dark

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Speaker 1: about this. Yeah, I don't know now, but there's every

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Speaker 1: possibility that I can know. This is something I can learn.

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Speaker 1: And so that phrase became increasingly important to me. And

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Speaker 1: then I remember I have a neighbor who's just like

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary person and she's been in New York for

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Speaker 1: a long time. When we went out to breakfast, and

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Speaker 1: she's one of those people that you feel comfortable with,

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Speaker 1: like in a weirdly short amount of time. So we're

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Speaker 1: like at breakfast and five minutes in I was telling

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Speaker 1: her something about like our marriage, about a thing I

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Speaker 1: was just learning, like why did you take me so

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Speaker 1: long to figure this out about partnership? And I said, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: I feel like every single thing in my life can

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Speaker 1: be summed up in the sentence I guess I haven't

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Speaker 1: learned that yet, And she was like, there's your book title,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh what really She was like, A,

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Speaker 1: that's it, and she was right, it was. That was

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Speaker 1: the theme of my life for these last several years.

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Speaker 1: And I think probably you run into this in your work.

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Speaker 1: There's something about like being a therapist, where people are like,

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Speaker 1: you probably know everything as soon as you become a writer. Weirdly,

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Speaker 1: people think you're an expert in all sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: which is like massively not the case when you're a parent.

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Speaker 1: People think you know everything when you're there's just all

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Speaker 1: these little ways that we communicate to ourselves and each other,

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Speaker 1: like you kind of need to be the expert in this.

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Speaker 1: And then I went through a season of so many changes,

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Speaker 1: as so many unbelongings and so many walking away from

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Speaker 1: so many things that had been foundational and certain in

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Speaker 1: my life for so long. And then I like also

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00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 1: couldn't figure out how to take the subway or get

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Speaker 1: our laundry done, or get at our groceries home. And

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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability. It's a real gift. It's really delightful and

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Speaker 1: life giving to get to walk into a room and

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Speaker 1: say I don't have to understand everything already. I trust

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Speaker 1: that people will help me if I ask for help,

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Speaker 1: and I trust that I can learn along the way

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Speaker 1: the things I need to know for the next steps

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Speaker 1: in my life. That brought so much peace and relief,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to like, oh no, what is it that

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Speaker 1: I haven't figured out yet? There's time enough to figure

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Speaker 1: this stuff out, whether you're twenty five or forty five

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Speaker 1: or sixty five. That gave me so much peace. I

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Speaker 1: initially was sitting here thinking about when you started that

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Speaker 1: is how many times a day, whether I say it

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Speaker 1: out loud or whether I say it in my head,

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Speaker 1: is I'm so dumb? Like I do say that, and

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes I say sarcastically, but that I think

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Speaker 1: even plays a role into how I view myself when

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Speaker 1: in reality, like if I was in New York, I

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Speaker 1: would have to hire somebody to like train me how

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Speaker 1: to use a subway, like I don't know, I have

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Speaker 1: no clue or even start at all, So I would

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Speaker 1: for sure be saying like, I'm an idiot, I can't

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Speaker 1: figure this out, but I even am. Like thinking about

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Speaker 1: changing the water filter on my fridge, I didn't know

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Speaker 1: how to do it until I had to learn how

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Speaker 1: to do it. But I think when I initially was like, oh, shoot,

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Speaker 1: the alarm is going off. I think my first thing

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Speaker 1: thing was like, how dumb am I that I don't

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Speaker 1: know how to change a water filter? Well, it's not

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Speaker 1: that I couldn't figure it out, it's that you hadn't

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Speaker 1: learned it yet. Yes, yeah, yeah, so that's the I got.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole just like changing the way you speak

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Speaker 1: to yourself and the grace and what that grace offers.

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Speaker 1: The other thing is I just had a conversation with

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Speaker 1: a friend today who was went to grad school with

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Speaker 1: me ten years ago, and we were talking about like

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Speaker 1: what we wish we would have told ourselves back then

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, and then also like how we experience

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Speaker 1: people experiencing us when they find out what we do,

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Speaker 1: to the point where like when I was on dating apps,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't put my job in my profile because I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's either going to make people be like free therapy

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Speaker 1: or they're gonna be I'm not going there, and both

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Speaker 1: ends of the spectrum are not correct. And I do

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Speaker 1: think people assume that because I'm a therapist, I know

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Speaker 1: everything about every mental health disorder and the whole world.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell the future as well, And I

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Speaker 1: don't I know a lot about a specific kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: like I work in body imagine eating disorders and addiction.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot about that you bring in O

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Speaker 1: c D. I don't know. I know general stuff, but

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of I don't knows. And I think

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Speaker 1: as a beginner in school, I wish I would have

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Speaker 1: been able to say, like, you don't have to know everything.

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Speaker 1: There's no way you can. And when something comes up,

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Speaker 1: there is space for you to figure it out. So

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Speaker 1: if I have a client who comes in with a

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Speaker 1: neating disorder and anxiety and anxiety disorders go hand in

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Speaker 1: hand with that O c D stuff starts coming up,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what intervention we're gonna use, but I'm

402
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Speaker 1: gonna go figure it out and ask some of my colleagues,

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00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,439
Speaker 1: and then we're going to make a plan. But I

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00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: think that five years ago I would have been like

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Speaker 1: I would have embarrassed, or like I'm not good at

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00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 1: my job. I don't like that. I think you're touching

407
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 1: on so many really important things there, and specifically that

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00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 1: asking for help is a failure. It's a way of

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Speaker 1: respecting what you don't know and what someone else does,

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00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 1: and and it's a way of esteeming the work they've done. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like if someone if the situation is flipped and a

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Speaker 1: fellow therapist reaches out to you and says like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I know this, this, and this like the back of

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Speaker 1: my hand, but I actually don't know eating disorder stuff

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Speaker 1: that Well, I've got this particular situation. Could you walk

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Speaker 1: me through a handful of these principles or ideas you'd

417
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 1: be like, thank you, thank you for tapping into my

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00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 1: area of expertise. I think that curiosity and humility, it

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00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 1: doesn't just enrich our own lives, it enriches the people

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00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 1: around us because it gives them a chance to be

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Speaker 1: experts in the things that they genuinely are experts at.

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Speaker 1: That's really esteeming. Yeah, I mean using the word respect

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Speaker 1: to it's like, yeah, I do feel so grateful when

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Speaker 1: people do that, because I don't want people to pretend

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00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: to like their experts in treaty needed disorders because it

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00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: is so nuanced. So yeah, I want us to be

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00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: able to do that. But I wonder, like, what is

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00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 1: it that, like, the world majority of the world needs

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00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: to learn or as our culture what needs to shift

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Speaker 1: for like this to be like a general okay thing

431
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: because I am a grain with you totally, Like I

432
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 1: want to live in this space where like it's okay

433
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 1: to not know and I want to live in this

434
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,199
Speaker 1: space where I don't have to be an expert in everything,

435
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: and I want to live in a space where if

436
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 1: I mess up, that's okay. And I want to live

437
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: in that space. But I can live in that space

438
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 1: in my bubble and the people that I surround myself with.

439
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: I guess my fear is like I feel like, once

440
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 1: I get outside of my bubble, is the world going

441
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 1: to accept that? And what happens if somebody does tell

442
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 1: me I'm dumb? Well, I would say a couple of things.

443
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: I would say, we have lived for a long time culturally,

444
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 1: Like the modern era is one of the markers of

445
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 1: the modern era is so ty right things are knowable

446
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,959
Speaker 1: and I know them and I have an answer. And

447
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 1: we've really put a lot of stock on right thoughts

448
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: and right believing and like that hasn't gone great, do

449
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like I get like the

450
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 1: the level of political discourse. If we're not doing great,

451
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: we we told people, organize your certainties in a particular order,

452
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 1: and then affiliate with these people and then scream at

453
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 1: everybody else from your answer position, right like, it's not working.

454
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: And so I think if those of us who feel

455
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: comfortable enough and brave enough to admit that there's nuance

456
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 1: and and uncertainty and possibility to be curious, I think

457
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,479
Speaker 1: we're the people who can lead the way at like

458
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: breaking up some of that really like brittle, fragile certainty

459
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: um one of the things that I love. Adam Grant

460
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: writes a lot about this and Think Again and on

461
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: this podcast, but talks a lot about the the importance

462
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: of curiosity in terms of lowering people's defenses in really

463
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: high pitched conversations, right like, of course there are situations

464
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: where I would like to scream my certainties across the

465
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 1: table at someone, but not if I want to change

466
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: their mind, and that if I really want us to

467
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: learn from each other, the way to do that is

468
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,719
Speaker 1: with questions, right and with listening. And so if if

469
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: there's a group of us who are brave enough and

470
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: grounded enough to be curious as opposed to certain, we

471
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: can start to thaw that brittleness and that like sort

472
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: of frozen, stuck nous. I really believe that that can

473
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: change things in our culture. Yeah, because that sounds to

474
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: me very attractive, Like it sounds very attractive to be

475
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: with somebody who like that feels like like soft and comfortable,

476
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: and I want to be in a conversation with you,

477
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: and I would imagine it would feel like I don't

478
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: have to prove my point in that conversation because that

479
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: person is trying to understand me. Which I I talk

480
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: a lot about with clients, is in when we have arguments, Well,

481
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: what if you came at the argument and that of

482
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to prove my point, why don't you try

483
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: to understand their point? And then maybe that will give

484
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: them space to try to understand your point, because I

485
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: bet neither of you are fully right. Absolutely, if we

486
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: can be the spearhead and in a lot of those spaces,

487
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: people are gonna want to show up there, and the

488
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: more people that are going to show up there, then

489
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: that might end up being the majority. So I love that,

490
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: and I know that you say that like curiosity and

491
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: then self compassion are like one of the greatest gifts

492
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: you've been given. And that reminded me of that, So

493
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: how has that been like a gift you've been given?

494
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: And then like like how did you find those things?

495
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: And how have those become these very very important things

496
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: for you in going through a season of so many changes,

497
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: like so many of us. I mean, I feel like

498
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: I am very much not alone in in that the

499
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: last couple of years have been really, really tumultuous for

500
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: all of us in terms of a global pandemic. But

501
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: I have so many friends who have moved unexpectedly, or

502
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: whose partnerships or marriages have ended, or whose businesses have closed.

503
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 1: We're all weathering some pretty significant losses right now, and

504
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: I think self compassion is one of the ways that

505
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: we can help return some of that softness. We can

506
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: give ourselves a soft place to land. And really, as

507
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: much as we want to, we can't extend a lot

508
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: of goodness to people if we're not extending it to

509
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: our own selves. That runs through pretty thin and so

510
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: I think I realized as I was trying to help

511
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: my kids through this move, I was forced to realize

512
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: the way I speak to myself in my head is horrible.

513
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: I would never speak that way to another living human

514
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: And if someone ever spoke that way to my children,

515
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: I would just go insane. But I do it to

516
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: myself all the time. And I just thought, like, we

517
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: live in a difficult culture to be a woman, and

518
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: it's you know, we'll have our own hang ups and challenges.

519
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: But I was like, listen, I'm not twelve, I'm not seventeen.

520
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm forty five years old. And I still talked to

521
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: my own face in the mirror like she's just a naughty, gross,

522
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: terrible like how dare I? How have I not made

523
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: more progress than this? But I had? And so I thought,

524
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn every single thing there is to learn

525
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: about this, and I'm gonna do like really remedial things

526
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: like forgiving myself every day and telling myself that I

527
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: care about my own self every day and even saying

528
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: it out loud sounds like so tacky and woo woo

529
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: and also really important. Yeah, yeah, I think I get

530
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: that way when I tell people, like we're talking about

531
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: like affirmations, look at look at yourself in the mirror,

532
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: and say something kind to yourself every day. I do

533
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: an I roll in the back of my head because

534
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, what is that gonna But that is

535
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: the stuff that changes you. It does, it absolutely does.

536
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I'm grateful that those are really tiny,

537
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: tiny things because you don't have to go out and

538
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: build a big mountain to change the way that you

539
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: are showing up in the world. You just have to

540
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: say something nice to yourself. My friend Joe Anna taught

541
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: me this exercise. Can I share it with you? A

542
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: little bit enormous, but she was leading a kind of

543
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: a workshop, kind of situation situation, and she had us

544
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: all get out our phones and go to the notes page,

545
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: and she said, I want you to think about someone

546
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: in your life who's really struggling but doing a really

547
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 1: good job. Like they're carrying something heavy but like handling it,

548
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: and you admire them, but you see that it's heavy.

549
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: Put their name dear so and so, and then write

550
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: three statements, I see you, I see how brave you are,

551
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: I see what you're carrying. You inspire me, you're doing

552
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: an amazing thing, whatever, and then put love your own name.

553
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: And then she said, okay, now go to the top,

554
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: take out their name, put in your name, like, actually

555
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: do it. She made us like delete the name and

556
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: put in our name and stare at it, and you

557
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: could feel the entire room like, oh man, right, and

558
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: I have done that the actual thing now so many

559
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: times and it's really really meaningful. I also imagine that

560
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: being like the reaction from the audience being very much

561
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: so like this feels uncomfortable now, yes, but it was

562
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: powerful and uncomfortable, yes, because what it showed us is

563
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: how extremely comfortable we are piling on the truth right,

564
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: love that's true, and and respect and esteem and compassion,

565
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: and it's so easy to express to the people we love.

566
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: You're killing it. I love you, You're amazing, You're extraordinary.

567
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: That like just bubbles out of us. And then you

568
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: put your own name and you're like, oh, I don't

569
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. I don't identify with this.

570
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: I wonder if you do, But I don't know what

571
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: it says about me that I don't identify with this.

572
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: But I hear all the time like doesn't that sound egotistical?

573
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: And doesn't that sound like selfish? And doesn't that sound

574
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: just itchy to to be talking and speaking highly of yourself?

575
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, maybe it does to you, but

576
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: like why, like why can we so be out there

577
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: cheerleading everybody else on, but we have to act like

578
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: we don't care about ourselves. I think I do identify

579
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: with that. I it does feel sort of like, Oh,

580
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: you think you're so fancy, you're so great. It's so funny.

581
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: My husband will catch me sometimes, Um, I'll be like

582
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: trying to do like really aggressive self compassion, and instead

583
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: of saying things like because I'm an extraordinary person, I'll

584
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: say I'm like like a solid like five and a

585
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: half on a ten scale, just as a human, like

586
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: not amazing, but like not terrible. He's like, that's not good.

587
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 1: You're not good. It's not nice. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like,

588
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: I am squarely middle of the pack on this and

589
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm willing to say that about myself And he's like,

590
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: that's again, you're terrible at doing this. Oh my god,

591
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Well. I also can offer an argument too.

592
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to believe it, but I think there

593
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: is an argument out there that says, going back to

594
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: what you said a couple of months ago, that we

595
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: can offer compassion and love and to people, but if

596
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: we're not doing it to ourselves, and we're not really

597
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: doing it authentically and true. I think there are a

598
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: lot of people out there that don't believe that. I

599
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people out there that

600
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: are like I can hate myself and still like be

601
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: supportive for other people. And I want to hear your

602
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: perspective on why that isn't fully fully real. We can't

603
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: just be awful, tortuous, hateful to ourselves and then go

604
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: out and do the good work. I literally need to

605
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: track this down. It's gonna drive my husband crazy that

606
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: I do this. It's either Richard Roar or Ronald Rollheiser,

607
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: so I constantly confuse it's one of them. One of

608
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: those wonderful, amazing Catholic writers says, how you do anything

609
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: is how you do everything right. The idea of like

610
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: compartmentalizing and being one way in one scenario or another

611
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: way in another scenario. It is sort of all a myth, right,

612
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: the who we are and the what's happening inside of

613
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: us bleeds out into everything. And so you can say, um,

614
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: I aggressively hate myself, but I'm extremely loving to my friends.

615
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: Ask them how that feels. You pick up on that

616
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: with you know, your kids pick up on it. You

617
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: feel someone who has an inner kind of a self hatred.

618
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: You can feel that, and it feels very unsafe to

619
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: be around. Let's say I'm just really horrible. I have

620
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: horrible body image, and I'm tear myself up about the

621
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: way my body might have changed during the pandemic or

622
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: something because life changed and that happened for a lot

623
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: of people. If I'm constantly beating myself up about that,

624
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: then what I see might happen is I either I'm

625
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: no longer able to show up fully to events with

626
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: my friends and to time and space with my friends

627
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: because either I don't think I'm worth being there, are embarrassed,

628
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: or any of that. But also, I bet you're saying

629
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: stuff about yourself and your body and how your body

630
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: has changed that hurts your friends feelings, because when somebody

631
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: shows up at your house and they are like, I

632
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: feel disgusting, I feel gross. I feel like everybody's going

633
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: to think that I look this and I look that.

634
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: And let's say that they think you look beautiful. Maybe

635
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: they even think that you look better than they do,

636
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: and they were having a hard day. It's like, oh,

637
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: if you think you look like that, what did you

638
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: say about me when you walked in? Like that's hard

639
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: to sit in. Yes, I think that is absolutely true.

640
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: And in my experience, what I found is those ways

641
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: of communicating, either in the positive or the negative, are

642
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: very contagious. Right, years and years ago that I saw

643
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: a photo in a magazine and I tore it out.

644
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: I put it on my wall for a while, and

645
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: it was over the front door of a house. On

646
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: the inside it said house of love and Bragging, meaning

647
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: in this house, we're going to fuss over every little thing.

648
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: We're gonna celebrate everything, We're gonna brag about each other.

649
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: And I really love that. I grew up in a

650
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: little bit of an environment, not necessarily like my family home,

651
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: but like the larger culture was very like, don't make

652
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: a big deal about yourself. You know, you're probably just

653
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: just medium. Yes. I grew up with like really accomplished

654
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: people doing really amazing things who constantly minimize their contribution. Right,

655
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: It's a very Midwest stern thing to do. What it

656
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: means then, is as a little girl, if I come

657
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: home or go somewhere with a tiny little accomplishment, well,

658
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: if they're not celebrating their huge accomplishments, I'm not walking

659
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: in with my spelling test or whatever. You know. But

660
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: if you cultivate an environment that says, I am going

661
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: to make a wild fuss over every tiny little victory

662
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: in your life, every tiny little thing that went well,

663
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: every small thing that you applied yourself to and learned.

664
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: That's contagious too, and you start celebrating not just your winds,

665
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: but everybody's wins. It becomes an environment where you're free

666
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: to be really like loose with all your bragging in praise.

667
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: And I think that sounds lovely. Well, yeah, And I

668
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: mean when I'm talking about hustle culture, to me, that

669
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: helps like fight up against that is I don't have

670
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: to hustle for my value and worth and to be

671
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: important or I don't have to get up at three

672
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning and start working to achieve this

673
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: thing because I don't have to have the gold medal

674
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: of the Olympics of whatever I'm doing to be valuable.

675
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: I get to like just be invited to the show

676
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 1: to be valuable. Absolutely, I feel like our our little

677
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: group of friends right now. You know, it's imperfect in

678
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: all the ways that groups of friends are imperfect, But

679
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: one thing we really do is we really cheer each

680
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: other on at like resting, getting a break stopping. You know,

681
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: like if if somebody's like I'm actually gonna go away

682
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: for a couple of days which really need to recharge,

683
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: We're like, yes, get away, send me a picture of

684
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: an umbrella drink. You know. We're like, hey, I'm going

685
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: to stay in tonight and go to bed early. We're like,

686
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: go to bed early, do it? You know, congratulation hopefully,

687
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: We're like, are you taking it out? Stick it out?

688
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 1: I love that though. That's really healing for me because

689
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: I just I spent so many years in an environment.

690
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: We had this moment with item with my husband several

691
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: years ago where it was like the evening and he's

692
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: like sitting down watching TV and I come sit next

693
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: to him just for like one second. I'm like, Hey,

694
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: don't don't worry. I'm not I'm not like stopping or

695
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still got a ton of these to do.

696
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: I just needed, like my body needs like just like

697
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 1: a rest for like a minute. It's like, I'm sorry,

698
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: am I. You're a coach and you're training for the Olympics, Like,

699
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: what is happening right now? Are you're telling me your

700
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: body wants some rest? You're not going to get it

701
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: and you're like self confessing to me, like you're a weirdo,

702
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't know it, and he

703
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: said it in such a loving way. But giving my

704
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: self permission to rest has been one of the most

705
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: life changing, you know, learning processes of my life. And

706
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: so now to have a group of friends that aren't like, oh,

707
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: really taking a nap, are we but there instead like, oh,

708
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: naps for the best? It's so healing for me. And

709
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: I think it's cool to hear you say that, because

710
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that there's a fear out there that if

711
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: I rest, then I won't get the thing that I want.

712
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: And what I got from President of a Perfect is

713
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: like I was getting the things, but then like I

714
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: like the examples that felt like I was like looking

715
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: through glass, it wasn't actually experiencing them. And so I

716
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: learned that it's not about the things. Maybe it's actually

717
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: about the experience. And so it's it's really nice to

718
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: hear you say that as somebody who doesn't just think

719
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: this is a nice idea, but that knows that this

720
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: is true and that you resting and actually taking a

721
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: break has allowed you to actually enjoy your life and

722
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: be more joyful and happy and want to be in

723
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: it more than you felt when you were always achieving,

724
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: always doing. I think that there's a fear that if

725
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: I take a break, I guess I'll fall behind or

726
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: I won't end up getting that thing. And to me,

727
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: I'm here you saying like that is not true, I

728
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: would say to me, it's about reframing what the goal is.

729
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: I'm always thinking now these days about the long game.

730
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: What do I want my life to be like? I

731
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: want to be a writer for the rest of my life. Um,

732
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: I write more slowly than a lot of other writers.

733
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: I do less travel than a lot of other writers.

734
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: There's not like one big splash I want to make.

735
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: I want to keep writing for a long time, and

736
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: so I have to steward my life and my energy

737
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: and my choices. According to again, like marathon, not a sprint.

738
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: It's very easy to think about the immediate metrics in

739
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: front of us, right like next thing, next thing, next thing.

740
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: What I want is to be a lifelong writer who's

741
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: lived a life that yields the kind of wisdom that's

742
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: worth writing about. It's a totally different set of metrics

743
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: than I want X amount of followers x amount of

744
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: visibility amount. You know, they're just different things. It's like

745
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: eating junk food or eating healthy food. I know which

746
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: one makes me feel better long term. I mean, I

747
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 1: still eat a lot of junk food. That's a bad example.

748
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: But that's so interesting because we I feel like we

749
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like we should. Maybe it's

750
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: a we should know this, so maybe you can speak

751
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: to like I haven't learned that yet, but like it

752
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: feels like we should know that. The followers and the

753
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: this doesn't actually in the end do the trick. It

754
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: feels like I've heard that enough times or I've seen

755
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: happen enough times. It's that it's so hard to click

756
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: in my head. That not that I'm out here like

757
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: raging for Instagram followers, because that wouldn't be my my thing,

758
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: but I have things Well, maybe I'm sitting here thinking that,

759
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: like the fear of the rest might come also from

760
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: if I don't do it, somebody else will like And

761
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, Okay. Publishing Present over Perfect was a

762
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: little bit controversial because essentially I was breaking the rules

763
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: of the industry I'm a part of. Right, publishing depends

764
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: on people being willing to keep making content all the time, forever,

765
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: very fast, and all of a sudden, I was saying,

766
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. I'm not getting on an unlimited

767
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: amount of airplanes, I'm not standing on an unlimited amount

768
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: of stages. I choose a different way of living. I

769
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: had people very close to me say I think the

770
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: title of this book should be career suicide. Right Like

771
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 1: they were like, if you want to blow up your career,

772
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 1: you're doing it very effectively. I had another person say

773
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: to me, Oh, you're not going to show up at

774
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: this event that we invited you to stay. Get I'm

775
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: going to find another woman and I'm going to promote

776
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: her book instead. And I was like, yeah, of course

777
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: you are. That's how it works, you know. They said,

778
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: if you don't have a book out in this sales cycle,

779
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: someone else's book is going to sell. I was like, no,

780
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: I know that's true. That's not that's those aren't like

781
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: empty threats. There are books that are going to sell.

782
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: If I don't have a book in the sales catalog.

783
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: There are people who are who's whatever is going to rise.

784
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: If I'm not doing that thing to rise, that's okay,

785
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: because that's not the thing that I want for my life.

786
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: What I want for my life is to feel present

787
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: to it and like I'm experiencing it and not exhausted

788
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: and isolated and numb. And so the math gets really

789
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: clear at that point. Yeah. Also, hearing you say that

790
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: reminds me, which I believe this, But there's there's room

791
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: for like many people to be best selling authors, like

792
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: just like there's there's room for many people to be

793
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: like great therapists, or if there's room for many people

794
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: to have successful podcasts. It's so if I take a

795
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: break from putting content out, yeah, people are gonna listen

796
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: to other content. But also that is where I think

797
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 1: a lot of this comes from, this like minimizing of

798
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: the like ability for success, whatever that might be. It

799
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: feels like it's like finite and there's a pie and

800
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: there's only so many pieces, and once all the pieces

801
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: are gone, if you're not in the fight for the pie,

802
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: then like I guess you're out of luck. But it's not,

803
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: And I mean it's the classic scarcity and abundance thing, right, yes, yeah,

804
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: so like theoretically most people only own one car, right,

805
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: so if you're selling them a car while I have

806
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 1: this car, I'm not getting any other cars. Okay, that's real.

807
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: So if you're trying to say, you know, I'm only

808
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 1: gonna have one at a time, probably books aren't like that.

809
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: Albums aren't like that. Restaurants aren't like that. It's not like, well,

810
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: I bought my shan an equist book, and now I

811
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: only read her books forever. Good than I chose her,

812
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, or you know what, she didn't have a

813
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: book this year, so I chose so and so who

814
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm only ever going to read forever. It's just what works.

815
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: I want to be a part of a community that

816
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: where there's only more and more voices, more and more

817
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: great books, but the more and more voices who have

818
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: something to say because they're living lives that are deeply grounded,

819
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 1: not just content creators who can push things out fast.

820
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: I don't think we need more of that. I think

821
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: we need people who are willing to put the brakes

822
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: on a little bit and grow and do the hard

823
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: work and then emerge on the other side with something

824
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: to say. Those are the voices I'm interested in, and

825
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: I want an unlimited amount of those. Yeah, because what

826
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: happens when if my goal is just to push out content.

827
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: What happens if I run out of things to say,

828
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: do I start making things up? And I feel from

829
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: the mental health side of things, this has been something

830
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: that I've talked a lot about, not in this context,

831
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: but I get really really like sad and scared when

832
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: I see some of the content that's out on social

833
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: media right now about therapy and trauma and mental health,

834
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: and because a lot of times I'm like that's not true,

835
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: or I'm like that's kind of true, but the way

836
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: you said that can be really misleading, or like that's true,

837
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: but I don't think that everybody on TikTok needs to

838
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: see that. I think that's information you give in a

839
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: therapeutic setting, and I think that's what you're kind of

840
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: what you're speaking to though, is like there's this push

841
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: to like, I got to get content out well, I

842
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: said these general things, and now these followers want more

843
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: from me, so I guess I'll go deeper into it,

844
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: and that gets really really dangerous. You have to listen

845
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: to your audience or your followers, your readers, but only

846
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: to a point because market market demand. It can never

847
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: be your north star. Your star has to be deeper

848
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: than that, and you're not selling a product. You're building

849
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: a voice and a set up of wisdom, and you

850
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: have to steward that in a really not you. We

851
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: all of us in really protective ways. When when it

852
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: starts like I will start meeting the needs and answering

853
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: the questions of every person who wants something from me,

854
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good way to lose track

855
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 1: of what it is that drove you in the first place. Yes, yes, yes, yes,

856
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: I love all that, which I think is probably speaks

857
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 1: to some of what you are going to talk about

858
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: or what you talk about in this book, because I've

859
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: messed up plenty of times around like content I put out.

860
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the reasons that this

861
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: has become so heavy is because I think I remember

862
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: sitting at one point and being like, what am I

863
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: going to post today? And I'm like, stop, stop doing that,

864
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: because why are you posting? You want more followers? Why

865
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: do you want more followers? You have a mental health account?

866
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: Like are you trying to help people? Or you want

867
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: to be this great Instagram therapist. I actually don't want that.

868
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: I don't want to be an Instagram therapist at all.

869
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: And so I can sit here feeling like all the

870
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 1: shame in that I can't believe I was, or I

871
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: could say I didn't know, I couldn't know until I knew.

872
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: I hadn't learned that this was a whole messy playground

873
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: that social media is still knew absolutely. And there are

874
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: events I used to speak at that I don't speak

875
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: at anymore. There are outlets I used to write for

876
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: that I don't write for anymore. Not because it's like,

877
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: not for any like controversial reason, just that's who I

878
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: was then and it's not who I am now. And

879
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: in five years, I hope I'm doing a totally different

880
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: set of things. I want to go into this, and

881
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that we fully have time, but I

882
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: do want to ask this because that I think it's

883
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: really important, because we can, I think, get in this

884
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: like puddle of shame when we change and we look

885
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: back on things that we we used to do or

886
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: we used to say. I know, as I learn new

887
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: things about myself and about mental health and how to

888
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: treat clients all the time, and there are things that

889
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: I did ten years ago that I'm like, oh my gosh,

890
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: I can't believe I did that exercise that was so

891
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: not okay. That was like the gold standard back then.

892
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: So I don't like sit in this puddle of shame.

893
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, I gotta be more careful. But

894
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: what is it like for you? And what would you

895
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: say to almost like the feedback, because I imagine you

896
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: might get at a greater scale of like, let's say

897
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 1: you change your mind. We have permission to change our mind,

898
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: change our beliefs, change our opinions all the time when

899
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: we learn new information. I don't know if you've experienced this,

900
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: but I know I've seen on the internet people like

901
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: bashing people for like what they used to do, or

902
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: things they used to say, or like a text message

903
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: they sent to somebody fifteen years ago. How would you

904
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: cope with kind of people shaming you for past versions

905
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: of yourself? You know? I think that's where a little

906
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: bit like when I was talking about the kind of

907
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: that being on the one of the people who's willing

908
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: to practice curiosity. I want to be one of a

909
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: group of people who accepts that the overall goal is growth,

910
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: and that means I'm not going to be who I

911
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: was ten years ago or fifteen years ago or five

912
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: years from now, and part of just like the mortifying

913
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: thing of being a writer is it's like literally in

914
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: black and white, like, oh, yeah, you know my first book,

915
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: I was twenty nine years old, I was pregnant for

916
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: the first time. I didn't have kids yet. It's an

917
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: entirely different person and then the one that you'll meet

918
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 1: in this next book. But it's funny because people don't

919
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: always do that math. I'll meet people and they'll be like, Hey,

920
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: I just read your book, and it's so fun because

921
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: I'm pregnant for the same time too, for the first

922
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: time too, And I'm like, ohh yeah, that was definitely

923
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: sixteen years ago. It's like a little time capsule. And

924
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: I just have to be just aggressively gracious with that

925
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: girl who was twenty nine years old, and I said

926
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: everything I knew at the time, right, And then three

927
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: years later I said a totally different set of things

928
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: because I had walked through a holy, totally different segment

929
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: of life. And I hope to write books forever, and

930
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 1: I hope that along the way that what I've always

931
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: said is my contract with my readers is with every book,

932
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: I promise to become a better human and a better writer.

933
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: I don't promise that I'm going to be consistent in

934
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: all my beliefs all the way through. I don't promise

935
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: that I'm not going to get things really really wrong

936
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: and then have to make them right. I'm gonna do that.

937
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get things wrong and I'm going to make

938
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: them right. But the only thing I can promise is

939
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: I will become a better human and a better writer

940
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: along the way. And reading them all in order is

941
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: probably going to be like kind of a mess because

942
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: it's growing up, like we all are. Yeah, And I'm

943
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: thinking about how like in school, when you are getting

944
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: your textbooks, it's like by this book, this edition, because

945
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: every so often they're updating them because we're doing more research,

946
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: we're learning more stuff. Those people get to go update

947
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: their books and we get an updated version. You don't

948
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: get to do that. And we have to remember that

949
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: there's some another author. I don't know who it was,

950
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: but I was reading a book. Man is gonna bother me,

951
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: Like you can't remember who said that quote, but I

952
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: was reading and they were talking just about that thing

953
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: of like, oh my gosh. It's almost like it can

954
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: be mortifying to go back and read the stuff that

955
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: people are finding now being like oh my gosh, and

956
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't believe that anymore. But yeah, you

957
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: don't get to do a revised version of your stuff.

958
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: It's just out there. And I think, honestly, to me,

959
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: that's very like admirable that. I mean, I'm not going

960
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 1: to go back and edit these podcasts in fifteen years,

961
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: and I mean, this is a true version of me,

962
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: and that was a true version of you. It was

963
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: absolutely honest for that moment and the best I could

964
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: do in those seasons totally. Okay, well I could sit

965
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: here for about another three hours. Um, we we're not

966
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: going to do that. So thank you so much for

967
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: taking the time to talk to me. I have fully

968
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: enjoyed this and I'm wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, I've really

969
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: enjoyed this. And where is the best place for people

970
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: to get your book? Like, where do you want to

971
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: send them the book? You can get it everywhere. You

972
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: can get it online. You can get it at big stores,

973
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: little stores, local stores. There's an audio version, um, and

974
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: they will all be available on April twelve. Okay, awesome, Well,

975
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: thank you so much. And it's Friday, so I hope

976
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: you have a nice weekend. It's freezing where I am,

977
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: so I hope you have better weather than me, but

978
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: thank you. It's it's probably the same weather here, but

979
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: we think it's really warm, so okay, well, I hope

980
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: that you enjoy your warm weather. Then all right, thank

981
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: you so much. All right, I'll talk to other pie

982
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: pie m hm