1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. Why why were 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: they trying to escape? 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: You know? Why would a seven year old or an 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: eleven year old set out in the ocean in an 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: open boat in the middle of the winter. It's clear 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: that the children understood that they didn't want to be there, 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: and there was a reason why. 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: filmmakers and podcasters who we have investigated and reported on 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: notorious true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. Cuper Island is a 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: remarkable podcast an investigation into one of Canada's most notorious 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: so called Indian residential schools. Journalists Duncan McHugh explores the 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: unsolved death of a student, a tragedy that sheds light 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: on rampant abuse and exposes the trauma of three survivors. 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: A trigger warning. We talk about suicide in this episode. 24 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: When people ask you what the podcast is about in 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: a the elevator pitch really simple terms here, what do 26 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 1: you say that Cuper Island is about? 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: When people ask, I tell them it's about four kids. 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: I tell them it's about four kids that attended a school, 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 2: an Indian residential school. Three of them survived and one didn't. 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: It is about long, long history in our country. There 31 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: were over one hundred residential schools in every province of Canada, 32 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: as there were Indian boarding schools in the United States 33 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: as well. This is just the story of one boarding school. 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: But more than that, the Keeper On podcast is about 35 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: three children and we did our best, producers Jody Martinson 36 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: and Martha Troyan and I, we did our best to 37 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: try to explore the lives of those kids when they 38 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: were in school and through the eyes of the three 39 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: who survived. But it was very much a journey that 40 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: we weren't expecting when we started into the life of 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 2: one boy who died, Richard Thomas, and trying to find 42 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: out how he died and why he died, and that 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: ended up being an extraordinary, extraordinary journey. 44 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: Let's start with how you came into this project, and 45 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: once we get through that, then let's set the scene 46 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: for where we start the story. 47 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: So I have been a reporter with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: the CBC, which is our public broadcaster in Canada, for 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: over twenty five years, doing television current affairs documentaries about 50 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: all issues under the sun. But I'm also in a shnabe. 51 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: I am a Jibwa from a small First nation in 52 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: southern Ontario, and that has very much informed my work 53 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: over the years. I have never exclusively reported on Indigenous issues, 54 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: but it's always been important to me to have more 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 2: Indigenous voices in our newscasts, and so I have done 56 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: reporting on residential schools for literally two decades as a 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: journalist for the CBC because it is a huge part 58 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: of our life in this country. Some people like to 59 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: say that it's a dark chapter of Canadian history. To me, 60 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: it's the whole story kit. You know, when you start 61 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: to learn about the history of Indian residential schools, why 62 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: they were created, how the children were treated when they 63 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: were at the schools and taken away from their families. 64 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: You start to understand so many of the problems and 65 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: challenges that First Nations people face now today in Canada. 66 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 2: It all often points back to their treatment in the 67 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: residential schools. So I am well familiar being a Nishinabe myself. 68 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: I have extended family who went to residential schools, and 69 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 2: certainly I have had friends and lovers and family members 70 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 2: who are impacted by the residential schools. You can't be 71 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: an Indigenous person in Canada or the United States for 72 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 2: that matter and not be impacted by residential schools somehow. 73 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: So for me it was a personal story, but also 74 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: as a journalist, as a reporter, I have spent a 75 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: career trying to unpack that story and explain it to 76 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: Canadians and why we had, you know, a Truth and 77 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: Reconciliation Commission in this country specifically to look into residential 78 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: schools and the legacy that it has left us as 79 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: a country. It became particularly i would say heated though 80 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, when one school in particular, the 81 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: Kamloops Indian Residential School in British Columbia, announced that they 82 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: had I would say, uncovered over two hundred on marked graves, 83 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 2: that the fact that children died at residential schools was 84 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: not a mystery. It wasn't it wasn't hidden. The Truth 85 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: and Reconciliation Commission spent over five years crisscrossing the country 86 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: gathering volumes and volumes and volumes of evidence of the 87 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: mistreatment of children in the schools, and they clearly stated 88 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: that over four thousand children died while attending Indian residential 89 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: schools over the course of a century. So it was 90 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: not it wasn't a surprise to Indigenous people. We have 91 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: been telling those stories amongst our family and to the 92 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: media for a long time now, that our children did 93 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: not come home from the schools. They were sent off 94 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: to be quote educated, and many of them did not 95 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: come home. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission put a hard 96 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: number on that at well over four thousand children, and 97 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: certainly there were even headlines at the time of the 98 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: number of deaths of children at residential school but it 99 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: didn't seem to really resonate with Canadians until this announcement 100 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. Of the unmarked graves that were 101 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: found at the Kamlibs Indian residential school and I remember 102 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: it so clearly, Kate. I mean, it was sort of 103 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: a social media announcement on a late Friday afternoon. My gosh, 104 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: like you know, over the weekend, it just seemed that 105 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 2: this it was like a band aid was being ripped 106 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,239 Speaker 2: off of a wound that had not had a chance 107 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: to scar yet. Because the pain that came out of 108 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: that announcement amongst Indigenous people was just visceral. My heart 109 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: is getting heavy just telling you about it and remembering 110 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: that time. And for some reason, Kate, that I cannot 111 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: explain to you, being having been a journalist and covered 112 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: this and told Canadians this story. But for some reason, 113 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: this announcement in twenty twenty one really struck a chord 114 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: with Canadians, and all of a sudden, at residential schools 115 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: sites former residential school sites and at Catholic churches, people 116 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: were lining up to lay down flowers to put little 117 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: children's shoes, you know, And there were these kind of 118 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: growing memorials that were happening right across the country over 119 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: the course of the week. And then there were a 120 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: number of other First Nation communities who announced that they 121 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: had former residential schools on their sites where they had 122 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: been doing ground penetrating radar work and had also uncovered 123 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: on Mark Graves, and so over the course of a month, 124 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: I would say there was this announcement after announce after announcement. Again, 125 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: none of this is a surprise. It's well documented that 126 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: Indigenous children died at the schools, but for some reason, 127 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: it just Canadians got it for the first time. These 128 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: were small children who were ostensibly being educated, but that 129 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: is not what happened. They died, They literally died, and 130 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: our families have been trying to deal with that ever since. 131 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: So at that time, CBC Podcasts approached me and said, 132 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: we think you should, you should take a deeper look 133 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: at this, and I said, I'd be happy to. This 134 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: is the kind of story that deserves a treatment. And 135 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 2: I had been reporting in British Columbia for a number 136 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: of years. I've been based out of Vancouver, BC, and 137 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: as I said, I've done lots of plenty of residential 138 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: school stories, about the court cases, about sexual abuse, all 139 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: kinds of different things. I had heard a lot about 140 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 2: the Keeper Island School being a particularly notorious one. We'll 141 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: put it that way. It was It was a place 142 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: that the survivors of that school called it Alcatraz because 143 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: it was located on an island. The island the indigenous 144 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: name of the island is Pennellicate. It is a place 145 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: where the hull Caomina people have lived since time out 146 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: of mind. The colonizers or the settlers changed the name 147 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: to the Keuper Island, and that was the name of 148 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: the residential school that was located there. It was about 149 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: three I'm going to say three miles roughly from Vancouver Island, 150 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: a small island in the middle of the Salish Sea. 151 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons that it had the 152 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: reputation that it did, and certainly why it was called Alcatraz, 153 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: was because it was out of side and out of mind, 154 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: you know, a place where children from up and down 155 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: Vancouver Island were taken and dropped and left at this 156 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: school that was run by a Catholic order called the 157 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: Oblates of Mary Immaculate, and it operated for over one 158 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: hundred years. And as I said, I had heard pretty 159 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: awful things about that place. And so when we were 160 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: trying to figure out how do we explain this history 161 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: of residential schools and and also this phenomenon of the 162 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 2: deaths of children and the unmarked grades. I thought that 163 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: perhaps the easiest way to do that might be through 164 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: just one school, rather than than trying to to to 165 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: encompass this this giant history. Maybe if we just focused 166 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: on one school, we might be able to to help 167 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: Canadians understand because there there are all kinds of history 168 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: books about about residential schools, and there have been movies made, 169 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: and it's it's an unpleasant it's an unpleasant aspect of 170 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: both Canadian and American history, which serves the countries of 171 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: Canada and the United States. It serves them well to 172 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: not remember this history because it is it is. As 173 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 2: I say, it's certainly a dark period and a shameful one. 174 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: And it's not something that was part of my education 175 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: growing up, as in elementary or secondary education. Certainly not 176 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: even in my post secondary education. It's not something that 177 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: many of us of our age learned about. And so 178 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: it was important to us to try to help Canadians 179 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: understand through the lens of this one school, this place 180 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: that survivors Noah's Alcatraz, what happened there and what life 181 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: was like for children who went to that school. 182 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: Give me a very brief history of how these Indian 183 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: residential schools even came about. Help me understand why this 184 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: would be something that Indigenous people would not accept, but 185 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: it just it happened, And how can this happen? 186 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: When you look back at a why or how in 187 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: Indian residential schools were created, you do have to go 188 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 2: take a peak back into history, and it does take 189 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: you back into the eighteen hundreds at a time when 190 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: there was an incredible amount of change going on in 191 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 2: both Canada and the United States for indigenous people and 192 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: the settlers are moving across the country and defining the 193 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 2: nations that they were about to become. And at that time, 194 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 2: when you look back at the records, you'll see that 195 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: my people, the Nishnabek, for example, understood that life was changing, 196 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: that there was a new way of looking at the 197 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: world and surviving in the world, and that was going 198 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: to involve working alongside the newcomers, the white people. That 199 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: was part of the purpose of the treaties from an 200 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: Aniabk perspective, was having agreements for using the land with 201 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 2: the settlers and the white people. But they also understood 202 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: that there were skills that would be helpful to them 203 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: in terms of adjusting to a new way of life. 204 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: And so early on in the relationship. In the mid 205 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, you saw that there were First Nation people, 206 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: and again I referred to my own people, to Nishnabe, 207 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 2: who were interested in sending their kids to get the 208 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 2: white man's education. They saw that it could be valuable 209 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: to them, and so they quite willingly actually said, yes, 210 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: we would like our children to learn the white man's 211 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: skills and learn the white man's language. And so the 212 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: early residential schools were set up with the agreement of 213 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: the First Nation's people that they would share their children 214 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: for a short period of time each year, and that's 215 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: how they started. But things took a dark turn in 216 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds, around about the time that Canada 217 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: became a country. Our first prime minister, his name was 218 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: John A. McDonald. He actually looked to the United States. 219 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: John A. McDonald had a very different project in mind. 220 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: He was trying to clear the west, clear the prairies 221 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: and make way for a national railway and settlement of 222 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 2: the pioneers and Indians. Indigenous people stood in the way 223 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: of that project. That is quite clear. He made no 224 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: bones about that and he felt that the easiest way 225 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: to get rid of quote the Indian problem, and that's 226 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: how it was referred to, was to separate children from 227 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: their families. And so that idea didn't come out of nowhere. 228 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: It came out of him sending an emissary down to 229 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: the United States and studying the boarding schools that had 230 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: been set up with Indian children in the United States. 231 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: So the whole idea to separate children from their families, 232 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: to blow up Indigenous families, that was what really sparked 233 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 2: the creation of Indian residential school and for cost saving purposes, 234 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: it really helped to have a partner in that project, 235 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: and that was the churches. The churches saw it as 236 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: being an opportunity to have a whole bunch of new 237 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: converts and so quite willingly signed up to run the 238 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: education of Indian children, financed by the federal government, the 239 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: Canadian government, but it was a partnership between state and church. 240 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: And so in the late eighteen hundreds we go from 241 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: a small handful of schools with First Nations who were 242 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: interested in getting a white man's education, to it becoming 243 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: the official policy of the Canadian government with regard to 244 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: education of Indian children, and there's no bones about it. 245 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: It is quite clear in Sir John A. McDonald's writings 246 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: and his philosophy that the entire entire aim of that 247 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: project was not so much education as it was assimilation. 248 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: It was his hope and the hope of his staff 249 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: that Indians would disappear, that they would become absorbed into 250 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: the body politic is the language that is used, and 251 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: that there would be no Indians after a while. But 252 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: in the short period of time, education was the means 253 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: to get to that end. 254 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: So when we go from this time in the late 255 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds to present day, take me to the evolution 256 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: of these schools. We're talking about this and the assimilation part, 257 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: the stripping away of a culture, ripping away from the family, 258 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: sounds terrible. How do we then get to murder of 259 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: all of these at four thousand that they know of? 260 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: So is it the discipline or what I can tell 261 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: you about is that let me tell you a little 262 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: bit about the history of the Keeper Island School. I 263 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: mean it was created in eighteen eighty nine at a 264 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: time when multiple churches were interested in operating schools because 265 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: they got a sudden cash infusion from the federal government 266 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: to set up their missions essentially, and so there were 267 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: multiple churches that were interested in setting up schools. Keueper 268 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 2: Island was one of them that was set up in 269 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: eighteen eighty nine. But within the first ten, fifteen twenty 270 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: years of that school's operation, it became very clear that 271 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: there were problems in the way it was being run. 272 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: There were reports right out of the gate of children dying. 273 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: Children dying because they were either underfed, because the school 274 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: was not it was built in an inhospitable manner. They 275 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: were suffering. I mean we talk about the pandemic now, 276 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: that was the conditions that the children were living in 277 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: where there was infectious diseases that were running rampant, and 278 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: so the rate of death was very very high at 279 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: that point, as high as thirty forty fifty percent in 280 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 2: some years. In the early years of the operation of 281 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: the Keeper Island School, it became a challenge in fact 282 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: for the Catholic Church to try to encourage the Hulkamum 283 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: people to send their children to school because they weren't 284 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 2: coming home. So many of them weren't coming home, which 285 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: is in part why the federal government in nineteen twenty 286 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 2: said it is mandatory that all Indian children must be 287 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 2: educated in Indian boarding schools. They made it a law 288 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: that was punishable if families did not comply and said 289 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,719 Speaker 2: their children to school. And that happened in nineteen twenty 290 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: and it was you know, it was in the face 291 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: of and with well documented evidence of the fact that 292 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: so many children were dying at the schools that was 293 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: the backdrop of the quote education system. It is quite 294 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: clear that and the federal government's own employees were documenting 295 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 2: the fact that the reason for the the number of 296 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: deaths of children at the school had to do with 297 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: the underfunding. Children were not being fed properly. And when 298 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 2: you talk with survivors, Kate, I mean that is probably 299 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: the one thing that all of them mentioned is that 300 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: they were hungry all the time. They just they you know, 301 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: they talk about the slot that they were served in 302 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: the morning, the rare, rare opportunities that they had to 303 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: actually eat any meat or protein. So there's no doubt 304 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: that that lack of food and nutrition was was a 305 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: big problem at the schools. But at Cuper Island, you 306 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: asked the question, how did these awful things start happening 307 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: to children? I think that's where you start to get 308 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: into the unusual confluence of the fact that it was 309 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 2: the federal government that was underfunding the schools, and it 310 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: was the churches that were running the schools, often unsupervised, 311 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: and as we all now know, throughout the world, there 312 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: are all kinds of problems in terms of the relationship 313 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: that priests and nuns have had with their subjects, and unfortunately, 314 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: sexual abuse is highly, highly common. And the Keeper Island School, 315 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: one of the reasons that we went there was that 316 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 2: we had heard that it was it was particularly it 317 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: was particularly ugly in terms of the treatment of children. 318 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: I think that the issue at Keeper Island in particular 319 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: was that it was especially out of side and out 320 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: of mind. It was on an island that children could 321 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: not escape from, and there are many instances documented instances 322 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: of children trying to escape from the school, trying to 323 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: set out in the ocean on a log or on 324 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: a stolen boat, or swimming even in the open ocean, 325 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: trying to leave the school. There are instances that we 326 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: went We cam through decades and decades of records Kate, 327 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: and there were all kinds of no We had no 328 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 2: troubles finding inquiries for example, into why children had died 329 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: in the middle of the ocean, and there were often 330 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: very i would say sterile government explanations as to why 331 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: this children may have died in confirming the cause of death, 332 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: but it seemed that no one asked the question why 333 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: why were they trying to escape? You know, why would 334 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: a seven year old or an eleven year old set 335 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: out in the ocean in an open boat in the 336 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 2: middle of the winter. It's clear that the children understood 337 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: that they didn't want to be there and there was 338 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: a reason why. We uncovered, for example, a police report 339 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: from nineteen thirty nine where one officer who was asked 340 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 2: to go and retrieve children who had escaped from the 341 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: island and actually made it home to their families. He 342 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: was ordered to go and retrieve the children and return 343 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: them to the school. He asked the question to the children, 344 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: why did you leave? Why would you try to set 345 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 2: out on such a dangerous journey off the island, and 346 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: they told him that they were being sexually abused, at 347 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: which point he set out to start to interview children 348 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: and then discovered that there were dozens of children in 349 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine that were being sexually abused by multiple 350 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: people at the school, and the end result of that 351 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: report was that both the Catholic Church and the federal 352 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: government wanted the report quashed. They didn't want to see 353 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: any criminal charges laid, and the people who were being 354 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: accused or allegedly committing those sexual abuses were shuttled out 355 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: of the province quietly in the dead of the night. 356 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: So there was plenty of evidence for both the churches 357 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 2: and the federal government that there was sexual abuse happening. 358 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,479 Speaker 2: On top of all of these children dying early on 359 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 2: in the nineteen hundreds and then well into the nineteen 360 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: thirties and nineteen forties, and yet the schools continued to operate, 361 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: They continued to run year after year. And this is 362 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 2: the situation that we set out to investigate when we 363 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 2: visited Penellicant. 364 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: So take me to the main characters of your story. 365 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: So you know, we have four children, one who didn't survive, 366 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: three who did. Can we set up what year this 367 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: is and what is their experience like? 368 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: So I mentioned to you that in twenty twenty one 369 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: there was this incredible outpouring of grief and sadness amongst 370 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: indigenous people. When we set out to do this podcast. 371 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 2: That was the environment that we were kind of walking 372 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: into when we went to Pennellicut for the first time. Again, 373 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: I have had plenty of conversations with residential school survivors. 374 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: That's not something new to me, and it can often 375 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: be painful, but I'd never really experienced something quite so 376 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: raw as this. And one of the reasons that we 377 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: went to Penellicatet was because we had heard bad things 378 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: about Keeper Island. But I also knew from some of 379 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: my phone conversations that the community of Penellicant had already 380 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: started work of ground penetrating radar as early as twenty 381 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 2: thirteen twenty fourteen approximately. They had been at that work 382 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 2: for quite some time. There had been many reports among 383 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: survivors that children had died, and they were starting to 384 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 2: do that work of trying to figure out if they 385 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: were still buried on the island. So when we arrived 386 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: at Penellicot for the first time, it wasn't without some trepidation, 387 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: I will say, being indigenous, I wanted to make sure 388 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: that we did this podcast in a respectful way, and 389 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: then we did it with permission and consent of the 390 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: community because I knew how painful. It was going to 391 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: be what you know, Kate from when you sit down 392 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,239 Speaker 2: and do a podcast with someone, it's not just a 393 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: you know, one and done, ask a couple questions and 394 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: then banks see you later throw the clips on the air. 395 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: These are going to be long, in depth conversations where 396 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: you're asking people about memories from long, long ago. And 397 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: then in our case, we ended up kind of investigating 398 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: a mystery on top of that and trying to uncover things. 399 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: And so I knew that this could be potentially quite 400 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: painful and bring up a lot of really difficult memories, 401 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: traumatic memories for survivors, and the last thing that I 402 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: wanted to do was as an Indigenous person, was to 403 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: cause them even more harm. So when we arrived at 404 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 2: Penellicut for the first time, we met with the Penellicatet 405 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: Elders Committee and sat down and explained, you know, what 406 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: we wanted to do with this podcast, what we were 407 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 2: hoping might come out of it. And the first question 408 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: that these elders asked me is, you know, what's a podcast? 409 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: And so after we kind of you know, spent some 410 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: time explaining what podcasts were, you know, we got into 411 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 2: the project with them again, they they had plenty of stories, 412 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: but there there was one mention of a boy that 413 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: had died, died hanging when he was at the school. 414 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: I remember, I remember distinctly sitting in the meeting with 415 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: all these old old Hulclaminum elders and and just some 416 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: of the sadness when they talked about that that particular death. 417 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: Later on that day I had my first opportunity to 418 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: see the site of the old Keueper Island Residential School. 419 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: The school closed in nineteen seventy five, and within a 420 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: year the people of Pennecticut had made an effort to 421 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: not only have it closed, but to have it completely 422 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: torn down. And literally within the next couple of years, 423 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: they had torn that building to the ground. It was 424 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: this gigantic, you know, three story brick monolith that was 425 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: standing in the middle of a rainforest. It looked they'd 426 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 2: looked completely out of place, and they did not want 427 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: to have that building any more evidence of it. Anyway. 428 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: As soon as it was closed, they moved to get 429 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 2: rid of it completely. So it wasn't much left of 430 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: the Keeper Island School itself. There's really only just the 431 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 2: stairwell that ran up to the front steps and the 432 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: old wharf where where hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 433 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: Helcamia children had been dropped off by boat to go 434 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: to the Keeper Island School. That was really all that 435 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: was left of the school. So I met up with 436 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: a survivor, Tony Charlie. He invited his brother, who also 437 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: attended the school, James Charlie, to take me on a tour. 438 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: The reason that I wanted to talk with Tony is 439 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: because he had been vocal about sharing his experiences at 440 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: the residential school, and I know, I knew that he 441 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: had done some healing work, and I wasn't too worried 442 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: about unlocking trauma that would set him on a bad path. 443 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: I wanted to start that way with someone who had 444 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: done some healing already. 445 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: So you met with two survivors in what years were 446 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: they at Keeper Island? 447 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: So James and Tony attended Keeper Island School in the 448 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, and so they are, you know, the silver 449 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: haired elders now. But they quite graciously decided to introduce 450 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: me to the area and walk me around. The thing 451 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: you have to understand about the place the school had 452 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 2: been torn down. But what happened was that this community 453 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: kind of got built on top of the old school grounds, 454 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: and so where people line up for the ferry every 455 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: day was right where the front door of the school was. 456 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 2: And as we were walking along the road, you know, 457 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: we walked past and Tony said, oh, yeah, that's where 458 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: the gymnasium was, and there was a home sitting there now, 459 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: and he said, yeah, that's where the young boy died 460 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: when he was hanged. And the mention of this, this hanging, 461 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: this suicide as they called it, came up again during 462 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: my tour Tony. One of the reasons that I wanted 463 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: to visit with Tony was that he had spoken about 464 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: hearing that children were burned, that children were taken and 465 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: put into the place where they incinerated wood and scraps 466 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: from the school, and that he had heard from other 467 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: children that there were priests who had taken bodies of 468 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: children to be incinerated in the school. And so he 469 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: took me to that spot as well, where now there 470 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: were just gnarled old apple trees that were left over 471 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: from the orchards that used to grow around the school. 472 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: It was a shocking kind of tour, I'll tell you, Kate, 473 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: because I guess what became really obvious to me was 474 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: that every day community members of Penellicate were dry through 475 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: this area that had so many bad memories for them. 476 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: Their big house, which is their communal gathering place for ceremonies, 477 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: was right on the spot that was next to the 478 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 2: gymnasium where Richard Thomas had hung himself. And what they 479 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: found was when they were having winter ceremonies and inviting 480 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: people from all over Vancouver Island helcamedium people to come 481 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: and join them for celebrations and the traditional ceremonies that 482 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: they had done since time out of mind, people wouldn't come. 483 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: People wouldn't come to Connecticut because they were like, yeah, 484 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 2: I'm not going back to that place because I got 485 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: to walk past the place that I remember being dropped 486 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: off when I was six years old and all the 487 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: things that happened there. And so the school may have 488 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: been torn down, but these memories were just visceral and 489 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 2: being revisited upon community members daily every time that they 490 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: went down to the ferry. 491 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 1: Tell me specifically well as specific as you feel comfortable 492 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: being what Tony and James said they experienced at the school. 493 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: So they were there in the sixties, was this an 494 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: elementary school for them or were they. 495 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: Ten or how old were they? Tony and James initially 496 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 2: started going to the keep Around school as day students. 497 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: They were living with their uncle on penellicate and then 498 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 2: they shifted to as they got progressed when went up 499 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: in grades, they began going as boarding students. And again 500 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: this is where you start to find out some of 501 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: the odd ways that families were torn apart because they 502 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 2: were only about eighteen months apart in terms of age, 503 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 2: but they lived on different floors and rarely saw each 504 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 2: other because the older boys were separated from the younger boys, 505 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 2: and they had a sister that was at the school 506 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 2: who they barely knew at all. Because the boys and 507 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 2: the girls rarely interacted. They were completely separated, and so 508 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: you could begin to see just how unusual it was 509 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: and the deep impacts that it had on families. When 510 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: James and Tony told me about the fact that they 511 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: had getting to know each other was something that they 512 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: experienced in their adult lives, not so much as children, 513 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: even though they attended the same school. 514 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: How often did the kids see their parents and did 515 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: the parents get a sense for anything being wrong? 516 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: Here and again part of The reason that Tony and 517 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 2: James were at the residential school was because their parents 518 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: had had a difficult history and Tony and James's mum died. 519 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 2: She had attended to keep her island school as well 520 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: and ended up on the streets of Seattle, not in 521 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,239 Speaker 2: a good way, I'll put it that way, and she 522 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: ended up dying when both of them were young, which 523 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: is why he had been why both Tony and James 524 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: were living with their uncle and then ended up at 525 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: the school, so they had no parents to to tell, 526 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: nothing from the uncle. No. One of the important reasons 527 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: that I started with Tony, I mentioned that he had 528 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: done some healing. He had a lot of healing to 529 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: do because he experienced sexual abuse at the hands of 530 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: one of the all Blake brothers who ran the school, 531 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: and Tony was involved in both civil and criminal cases 532 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 2: that were instrumental in getting that particular all Blake brother 533 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 2: charged and convicted criminally. So Tony had been on a 534 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: long journey because he had a lot of pain to 535 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: deal with being repeatedly preyed upon and sexually abused by 536 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 2: one all Blake brother. And as I learned, as I 537 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: began to know Tony and James Moore. It wasn't just Tony, 538 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: it was James as well. And it wasn't just one 539 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: all blate brother. There were multiple ob late brothers who 540 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 2: abused the young boys. 541 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: So you have a third survivor also, is it Belvy? 542 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: Is that how you say? 543 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: Yes? Bellvy brother? 544 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: Was Belvy in their cohort or in a different cohort. 545 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: After our tour, we stopped at the place where the 546 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 2: where the gym used to be and and they, I said, 547 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: the elders mentioned this, this boy, you know, hanging what 548 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 2: happened there? And they said, oh, you know, he was 549 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: such a happy, happy kid, and we don't know what happened. James, 550 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 2: there's a lot of fire in him. And and and 551 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 2: he said, you know the story that they told about 552 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 2: the way he died, that that was a lie. That 553 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 2: was a lie. They said that he was worried about 554 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 2: his parents and going home, and that's not the truth. 555 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: That's all he told me. But it raised questions in 556 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: our heads about this boy that had died hanging in 557 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: the gym, And so we set out to try to 558 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: find any relatives of this boy, Richard Thomas, and we 559 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 2: ended up meeting his sister Bellvy brother. Bellvie is also 560 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: a member. She's a Hull Camtum from a different First 561 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: nation that's on Vancouver Island, the Hallal First Nation. And 562 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: as I said, there were families from up and down 563 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: the island that sent their children to go to the 564 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 2: Keeper Island School. Bellvie attended the Keeper Island School a 565 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 2: little bit before. She was a little bit older than 566 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 2: Tony and James. She was there in the late nineteen 567 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 2: fifties and early nineteen sixties, a little bit before Tony 568 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 2: and James, and so we ended up meeting Bellvy and 569 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 2: Bellvie had had just a was I still remember the conversation, Kate. 570 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it was horrific to hear her own memories 571 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: of the sexual abuse that she experienced at the school. 572 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 2: It just seemed like it was completely rampant there. But 573 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: also we asked her, you know, about Richard, and she 574 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 2: had this incredible conversation with me. Kate the first time 575 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 2: I met her where she said, I remember Richard phoning 576 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 2: days before he was about to graduate. I remember him phoning, 577 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 2: and they graduated in grade ten. The schools only went 578 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 2: to grade ten at that point. I remember him phoning 579 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 2: in early June morning and saying, I just can't wait 580 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 2: to get out of this hell hole. And she said, 581 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 2: you can't talk that way, Richard. She was she was 582 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: a little bit older than him. He was, he was 583 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: Bellvy's younger, younger brother. Said you can't talk that way. 584 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: And you have to understand, Kate, that in the communities 585 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 2: at that time, the priests they really held, you know, 586 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: they held a great deal of power in the community. 587 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 2: They were they were in high esteem because you know, 588 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 2: after decades and decades and decades of missionary work, the 589 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 2: many many many helkamina and people were had converted to 590 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: Christian and you listened when the priest spoke. That was 591 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 2: the way up at that time. And so she said 592 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 2: to him, you can't speak that way, and he said, 593 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell everything when I get out of 594 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,479 Speaker 2: this hell hole. And then she remembers the phone being 595 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 2: cut off, and apparently at that time it was a 596 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 2: communal phone line, and the word amongst the children was 597 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: that the priests and the nuns would listen in when 598 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 2: they tried to phone home, and Bellvy reports that the 599 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: phone kind of dropped at that point, and it was 600 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: only within a week later that there was another phone 601 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: call at Belvy's house, and this time it was the 602 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 2: head of the school who was saying that Richard had 603 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: been found dead. So Belvy had always asked questions about 604 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: her brother's death. There is no fact, there's no disputing 605 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 2: that Richard was found hanging in the gym. There are 606 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 2: news reports that he had been found hanging, and we 607 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,479 Speaker 2: ended up uncovering an on autopsy report as well, which 608 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 2: also can firm that he had been found hanging. 609 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: No other signs of struggle or defense or anything like that. 610 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 2: There did not appear to be We took that autopsy 611 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 2: report to an indigenous corner actually, who examined it carefully 612 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: for us and said, you know, this isn't how we 613 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: would do a coroner's report in this day and age. 614 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: It was about two or three pages long, and she said, 615 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 2: if a fifteen year old boy died at school, we 616 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 2: would have, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages. 617 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: We would have all kinds of samples and things like that. 618 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 2: She said, there's nothing in this that I can see. 619 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 2: No photographs. They didn't have photographs. There were photographs, yes, 620 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you, Kate, I've been a reporter for 621 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 2: for over two decades, and when I first saw those 622 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 2: pictures it was very difficult to see. I don't know 623 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: if you've seen pictures of dead people, but it is. 624 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 2: It's not something you can unsee. It's hard for me 625 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 2: to think about them right now. But the corner looked 626 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 2: at them and said, you know, it does appear to 627 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 2: be consistent with hanging. 628 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: Did she talk though, about strangulation and then a hanging 629 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: like the possibility that this would be murder that would 630 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: give you the exact same results, Patikia everything else that 631 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: she's looking at. Was it possible somebody else would have 632 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: done this and then hanged them up somehow? 633 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 2: So the point that you're raising right now is something 634 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 2: that we began to uncover as we spoke to more 635 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 2: and more survivors from Cuper Island about the death of 636 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 2: Richard Thomas. Those kinds of and i'll call them whisperings 637 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 2: had been going on amongst survivors for decades decades. It 638 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 2: happened in nineteen sixty six that Richard Thomas died, but 639 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 2: for decades people had been asking the same questions that 640 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: you had. And here's I'll tell you why. One of 641 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 2: the incredible things as we began to reach out to 642 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: more and more survivors about Richard Thomas's death, was that 643 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 2: there were lots of people who had witnessed Richard hanging 644 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 2: in the gym. As children, They had witnessed Richard hanging 645 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 2: in the gym, and this was not an uncommon story 646 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 2: where which we heard from multiple people that they had 647 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 2: been taken into the gym by the nuns and priests, 648 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 2: or that they had had access to the gym and 649 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 2: had seen Richard hanging, that Richard had been hanging there 650 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 2: for a period of time, And there were multiple children 651 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: that were in the gym and witnessed Richard hanging, and 652 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 2: that seemed to be even more incredible to us that, 653 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 2: you know, it is no doubt that this awful thing happened, 654 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 2: but the fact that there were so many children that 655 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 2: witnessed it seemed very very unusual to say the least, 656 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 2: And imagine the trauma of being a young child and 657 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 2: seeing one of your schoolmates hanging hanging in the middle 658 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 2: of the school gym. But on top of that, the 659 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 2: other thing that became very very i will say puzzling, 660 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 2: to say the very least, is that the autopsy report 661 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 2: showed that police did investigate. It wasn't that it was 662 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,399 Speaker 2: swept under the rug or anything like that. Police did 663 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 2: investigate and filed a report and interviewed the oblates, and 664 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 2: they also interviewed three children. The official story that the 665 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 2: oblatees gave was that Richard had been missing from school. 666 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 2: In the morning, he was seen having breakfast. One of 667 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 2: the oblates had left the island to take a group 668 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 2: of children off island for a school trip. The other 669 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: oblate was working with another group of children. No one 670 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 2: exactly knew where Richard was, and then suddenly, late and 671 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 2: late in the evening, after the children had gone to bed, 672 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 2: Richard was discovered missing and then found hanging in the gym. 673 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 2: That was the report that the oblates gave to the 674 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 2: police and that the police ended up affirming as the 675 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 2: cause of death. But they also interviewed three children who 676 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 2: said that they had been playing with Richard in the 677 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 2: gym and that he had been playing with a rope 678 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 2: and reading the Bible. That was the story that the 679 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 2: three children shared with the police officers. Two of the children. 680 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 2: We ended up tracking down and trying to find the 681 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 2: children who had supposedly witnessed Richard's death. Two of the 682 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 2: children had passed away, we weren't able to connect with them, 683 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 2: but one of them was still alive and he had 684 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 2: a very different version of events. Certainly, he had been 685 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 2: playing with Richard in the gym, but it was the 686 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 2: children who discovered Richard hanging in the gym after the 687 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 2: lights had gone out mysteriously while they were playing for 688 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 2: a period of time. Donnie Sampson, who was the survivor 689 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 2: who we spoke with, had a very different memory of 690 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 2: Richard's death, And all of the children who witnessed Richard 691 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 2: hanging in the gym, his wife being one of them, 692 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 2: that seemed to be very had been left out of 693 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 2: the official account of the day. So all of these 694 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:14,720 Speaker 2: things were fueling the whisperings i'll call them, the suspicions 695 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 2: amongst survivors over the years about how it was that 696 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 2: Richard had actually ended up hanging and was it possible 697 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 2: that he had been murdered. There was certainly lots of evidence, 698 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 2: and when we begin to get into this in the podcast, 699 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 2: that there was one ob late brother in particular who 700 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 2: had a terrible relationship with Richard Thomas and an ob 701 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 2: late brother who had terrible relationship, as it turns out, 702 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 2: with Tony and James Charlie, who ended up sexually abusing 703 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 2: Tony and James Charlie when he took them away to 704 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 2: his own family home in Montreal in nineteen sixty seven. 705 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 2: So there were lots and lots of uncomfortable and unpleasant 706 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 2: and inconvenient stories that we were hearing from survivors about 707 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 2: Richard's death. That certainly raised a lot of questions about 708 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 2: the way that his death had been investigated. But more importantly, 709 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 2: I guess Kate, they really raised questions about who, if anyone, 710 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 2: was caring for the welfare of these children. 711 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you what happens after these kids? 712 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: And I don't just mean this group of Tony and 713 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: James and Bellvy and any of these other kids, but 714 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: in general, when they graduate in tenth grade, what happens? 715 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 2: Where do they end up going? 716 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: Do they get jobs somewhere? Do they go back to 717 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: their indigenous communities and reunite with their families? 718 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so again, as I said, the school at 719 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 2: Keuper Island only went to grade ten. Tony and James 720 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,760 Speaker 2: ended off ended up going to a different residential school 721 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 2: where they suffered a new set of problems and unpleasantness. 722 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,439 Speaker 2: Belvie went on an interesting journey. She said she did 723 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 2: not want to be indigenous. And I keep using the 724 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,359 Speaker 2: term Indian because that is the term of the time 725 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 2: and the term, you know, she did not want to 726 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 2: be Indian. She has said, I had nuns, you know, 727 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 2: pulling my hair and saying you dirty Indian, you know, 728 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 2: throughout my entire childhood. And I internalized that and I 729 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,800 Speaker 2: didn't want to have anything to do with my family, 730 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 2: or my heritage or my culture. And so she married 731 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 2: a white man. She married a white man so that 732 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 2: she could start to try to turn the page on 733 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 2: just being indigenous at all. As it turned out, that 734 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 2: relationship wasn't a very good one either, where she suffered 735 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 2: a lot of domestic abuse and she began became a 736 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 2: drinker for a period of time. But in both cases 737 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 2: with I told you at the outset that this was 738 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 2: the story of three children, three who survived and one 739 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 2: who didn't. For Belvy, for James, and for Tony, the 740 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 2: school was never far from their memory. I mean it 741 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,279 Speaker 2: was not something that they ever felt that as they 742 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 2: grew up into their adult years, it plagued them, you know, 743 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 2: the ripple effect of residential schools began to impact, you know, 744 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 2: the way they worked, the way they loved, the people 745 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 2: who they loved. And so all of them have children, 746 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 2: and we interviewed Belvy's children and James's children, and they report, 747 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 2: you know that, and this is where things become very complicated. 748 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 2: This is where you start to talk about intergenerational abuse 749 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 2: and the things that the priests and nuns did to 750 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,800 Speaker 2: the children at the residential schools they ended up perpetuating 751 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,280 Speaker 2: on their own children. And so we had a very 752 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 2: gripping and shockingly honest conversation with Fergie Charlie, who was 753 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 2: one of James Charlie these sons, about his father and 754 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:08,439 Speaker 2: being terrified, absolutely terrified of his dad because his dad 755 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 2: had an irrational anger that would explode and he would 756 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 2: take out on his children. Put yourself in the in 757 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: the shoes of a young of a young boy, a 758 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 2: young son, not knowing anything about residential schools, not knowing 759 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,359 Speaker 2: about what his dad had experienced, that he had been 760 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 2: sexually abused at these places. He didn't know where that 761 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 2: was coming from until his late adult years. And James, 762 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 2: to his absolute credit, you know, when we began to 763 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 2: hear the stories of their children and the challenges that 764 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 2: they faced having relationships with their parents. You know, James 765 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 2: was quite open about that and said, I have done 766 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 2: harm to my wife and to my family, and I 767 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 2: will spend the rest of my life trying to heal 768 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,800 Speaker 2: and to help my family, you know, to become whole again. 769 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 2: And so when I when I talked about the goal 770 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 2: of the residential schools being to blow up the family, 771 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,319 Speaker 2: that's perhaps the most bitter irony out of all of this, Kate, 772 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 2: is that, yes, the schools operated for a period of time, 773 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 2: but the ripple effects of what the children experience there 774 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 2: are still being felt today in Indigenous communities across Canada 775 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 2: and the United States, and it's being perpetrated by our 776 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 2: own people. The lateral violence that now exists in many 777 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 2: Native American and First Nation communities in Canada often has 778 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 2: its roots in the kind of traumas that children experienced 779 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,760 Speaker 2: at residential school whether it's suffering sexual abuse, whether it's 780 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 2: being told that they were dirty Indians, whether it's being 781 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,479 Speaker 2: not learning their indigenous languages, being ripped of their mother tongue, 782 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,799 Speaker 2: being ripped away from them, and being strapped because they 783 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 2: were speaking their indigenous languages, or whether it's something as 784 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 2: gruesome as seeing a boy hanging in a gym when 785 00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 2: you really shouldn't ever be exposed to such a thing. 786 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,839 Speaker 1: How is the Canadian government now today twenty twenty five, 787 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: How does the Canadian government view that history? Is it 788 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,359 Speaker 1: not embracing the history but accepting it and amplifying it 789 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 1: so people can learn, or do you know where does 790 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 1: the Canadian government stand with this history? 791 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,439 Speaker 2: I think you have to understand that we're a little 792 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,440 Speaker 2: bit farther ahead in Canada than perhaps you are in 793 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 2: the United States, although there have been efforts in the 794 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,840 Speaker 2: past couple of years to try to try to expose 795 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 2: some of what happened and Indian boarding schools in the 796 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 2: United States, But in Canada, I think the biggest difference 797 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,439 Speaker 2: is that residential school survivors, starting in about the early 798 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 2: nineteen mid nineteen nineties, began going to court. And there 799 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 2: are reasons why the federal government, for example, launched the 800 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 2: Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It wasn't out of some kind 801 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 2: of more benevolence. It wasn't because they thought it was 802 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 2: the right thing to do. It was because it was 803 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:06,240 Speaker 2: court ordered. 804 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's usually where things start to move is 805 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 1: court ordered. 806 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 2: Yes, and so you know that entire investigation and thorough 807 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 2: investigation the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was as a result 808 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,840 Speaker 2: of a court settlement between survivors and the Canadian government. 809 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 2: The Canadian government has made many nice noises. Our former 810 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said that the Canadian government would 811 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 2: accept wholeheartedly all ninety four calls to action that the 812 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:40,240 Speaker 2: Truth and Reconciliation Commission made in twenty fifteen to fix 813 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 2: things like the justice system, to change the education system, 814 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 2: to deal with our media. For example. There were many, 815 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 2: many recommendations that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission made in 816 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,080 Speaker 2: terms of the way that Canada needed to change to 817 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,680 Speaker 2: move forward. Has the Canadian government made as much movement 818 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,160 Speaker 2: as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hoped. Absolutely not. It's 819 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,759 Speaker 2: well documented that they've only moved forward on a handful 820 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 2: of the ninety four calls to action. We have a 821 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,400 Speaker 2: new Prime minister and we'll see, we'll see whether or 822 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 2: not he's as interested in trying to earnestly move forward 823 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 2: on this project of reconciliation between indigenous peoples in the 824 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 2: Canadian state. 825 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,439 Speaker 1: But how do you take this issue that the Truth 826 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: and Reconciliation Committee has brought up all of these points, 827 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,320 Speaker 1: the things that need to change. How do you bring 828 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 1: that to the top when in Canada, much like in 829 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: the US, there's a struggle over the economy, over industry, 830 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: you have a new PM, how do you say this 831 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,279 Speaker 1: is important too, because I could absolutely, of course see 832 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,800 Speaker 1: this being pushed down, down, down, because there's so much 833 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: more you know that seems systemic, and what we're dealing 834 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: with in the US and you all are dealing with 835 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: in Canada is immediate. It's the economy, it's people paychecks 836 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: and everything. So how do you keep that? How do 837 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 1: you advocates keep that at the top of the list? 838 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 2: So the Keeper Islean podcast has been out for a 839 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 2: couple of years now and people have had an opportunity 840 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 2: to listen to it. So I don't feel badly telling 841 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 2: you about the end of the podcast. It's a bit 842 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 2: of a spoiler alert if you haven't listened to the 843 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 2: Keeper Islean podcast, I'm about to take you right to 844 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:23,439 Speaker 2: the very very end. 845 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: Let me pause by saying to the audience, you need 846 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,000 Speaker 1: to listen to this podcast because you know Duncan, and 847 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,720 Speaker 1: I cannot do justice to the voices that he has 848 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,799 Speaker 1: coming to this to illuminate the story, energize it, and 849 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: make you feel, you know, not just the pain, but 850 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,600 Speaker 1: hope that happens with this kind of story. So you 851 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: can spoil it all you want, it's still a podcast 852 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: that needs to be listened to. 853 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,160 Speaker 2: You know, well, thank you, I appreciate those. Those are 854 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,799 Speaker 2: very meaningful words, And thank you, I appreciate that. And 855 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,840 Speaker 2: we wrap it up with the way that storytellers always 856 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,160 Speaker 2: wrap it up. We bring back our or the subjects 857 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,320 Speaker 2: who we spent time with, Tony and James and and 858 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 2: and bell Vy, and we tell a little bit about 859 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 2: where they're at and and and that that, you know, 860 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 2: maybe the typical end, you know, ride off into the sunset, 861 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 2: if you will. But Jody, and and and Martha and 862 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,680 Speaker 2: I felt that after spending a year going back and 863 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,279 Speaker 2: forth to Connecticut and visiting and spending time, what we 864 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 2: began to understand is that we had told the story 865 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,920 Speaker 2: of one boy, Richard Thomas, this incredible boy who it 866 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 2: turns out, was not morose and wasn't having suicidal thoughts. 867 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,279 Speaker 2: Turned out he was a creative writer who ended up. 868 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 2: You know, we found his published works. For Heaven's sakes, 869 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,319 Speaker 2: you know, a boy who had great aspirations actually to 870 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,480 Speaker 2: become a priest of all things, which was you know, 871 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 2: unheard of at that time native priests. You know, we 872 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,759 Speaker 2: had learned that there was love in this boy's life, 873 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,000 Speaker 2: and that his death had caused incredible suffering and pain 874 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,080 Speaker 2: to his family, that that touched off sparked all kinds 875 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,839 Speaker 2: of misery for for his extended family. We learned an 876 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,480 Speaker 2: awful lot about this boy, and we had hoped that 877 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:11,480 Speaker 2: that perhaps that that by by sharing some of his 878 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,400 Speaker 2: stories and his family stories, that that people would be 879 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,360 Speaker 2: able to picture this, this loss, this you know, that 880 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,319 Speaker 2: it wasn't just a black and white archival photo that 881 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,799 Speaker 2: we see of, you know, these these dark children in 882 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,319 Speaker 2: these in these stiff uniforms, but that maybe we'd be 883 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,760 Speaker 2: able to humanize him. As we were trying to figure 884 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,279 Speaker 2: out how to wrap this thing up and finish the podcast, 885 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 2: very practical technical kind of you know, thing to do 886 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 2: as a journalist, we went, holy cow, there there are 887 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty names at Cuper Island who we 888 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,279 Speaker 2: have not spent eight episodes investigating. We've only you know 889 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 2: glancingly referred to a few of them. And so Jody 890 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 2: went out to outside of Vancouver along the beautiful sea wall. 891 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,600 Speaker 2: And for those of you ever been to British Columbia, 892 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,319 Speaker 2: you know, if you go to the Salish Sea, it's 893 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,320 Speaker 2: a stunning place. And she explained the project to people 894 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,359 Speaker 2: who happen to be just walking along the sea wall 895 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 2: and enjoying the beauty of this land, and she said, 896 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,880 Speaker 2: could you just read the names? Read the names of 897 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,040 Speaker 2: the children who died at this school, at this place. 898 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,359 Speaker 2: And there are one hundred and sixty documented names at 899 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,640 Speaker 2: this point, and that list is still growing as they 900 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 2: try to do the archival research and find out who 901 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,239 Speaker 2: all the children who died. And so we end the 902 00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,600 Speaker 2: podcast with this long scroll of people Canadians reading the 903 00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,960 Speaker 2: names of these deceased children. And I'll tell you we 904 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 2: debated this for a while, Kate, because it's kind of 905 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 2: like going to the Vietnam Memorial. You know, when you 906 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,319 Speaker 2: go there, it is it's just a black wall. But 907 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've been, but when I visited 908 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,799 Speaker 2: that place, I was staggered. I was staggered by just 909 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,480 Speaker 2: that presentation of names. And likewise, I mean, there are 910 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,919 Speaker 2: many people. You know, Indigenous people are not the only 911 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 2: people that have experienced the Holocaust, right, I mean, there 912 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,320 Speaker 2: are many human beings can be terrible to other human beings. 913 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 2: But this the residential schools, they are our Holocaust in 914 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,439 Speaker 2: many ways. And when we heard this list of names 915 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,400 Speaker 2: of one hundred and sixty children who died at this school, 916 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:28,279 Speaker 2: when federal officials knew, when church's officials knew, when Canadians 917 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,040 Speaker 2: unfortunately should have known, because it was quite public that 918 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,879 Speaker 2: children were dying, and nobody did anything. When you hear 919 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,640 Speaker 2: these names that go on for five or six minutes, 920 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,879 Speaker 2: and Canadians who wanted to do justice, I'll give them 921 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,440 Speaker 2: that they wanted. They wanted, they understood the solemnity of 922 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,120 Speaker 2: just reading a child's name. You know. Those are children 923 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 2: that never made it home. Those are Indigenous children who 924 00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:01,320 Speaker 2: never got to live their dreams. Those are Indigenous children 925 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 2: who never got to have families. And when you hear 926 00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,880 Speaker 2: that list of names, I'll tell you it's still upset. 927 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 2: It still moves me now thinking about it, because it 928 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,640 Speaker 2: just you ask me, you know, what is the Canadian 929 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 2: government doing? I like to turn it around and ask 930 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,640 Speaker 2: Canadians now that you know. Now that you know, if 931 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,880 Speaker 2: you did not know this history, now that you know, 932 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,240 Speaker 2: what are you doing about it? What are you doing 933 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:36,080 Speaker 2: about it? Because we can debate about, you know, political 934 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:41,120 Speaker 2: policy and partisanship and what one party is going to 935 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,360 Speaker 2: do with regard to Indigenous relations versus another party, but 936 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, this is going to 937 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 2: be about Canadians and honestly Americans reckoning with this history 938 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:56,160 Speaker 2: and understanding that there is a silence and there has 939 00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:01,240 Speaker 2: been an erasure about this history both of our countries 940 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 2: for a reason, and it is having ongoing impacts on 941 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 2: the certainly the health of Indigenous communities in this country, 942 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 2: but on the economies of both of our countries, the 943 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,280 Speaker 2: fact that Indigenous people are not fully contributing to it. 944 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 2: And so that's going to end up being on citizens 945 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,200 Speaker 2: to start to make a change, and that starts with 946 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,280 Speaker 2: it can be low hanging fruit. I don't you know. 947 00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,000 Speaker 2: It was incredible to me in twenty twenty one to 948 00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,360 Speaker 2: go down on Canada Day, which is a little bit 949 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,880 Speaker 2: like our July fourth or your July fourth, when Canadians 950 00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,880 Speaker 2: typically put on red and white and go in way 951 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 2: of the flag to see thousands and thousands and thousands 952 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,520 Speaker 2: of Canadians putting on orange shirts. Orange has become known 953 00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 2: and synonymous with residential school survivors. It was astonishing to 954 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,280 Speaker 2: me to go and eat with a bunch of Canadians 955 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:06,040 Speaker 2: walking down and demanding change, demanding that these kinds of 956 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:10,600 Speaker 2: injustices need to be marked and not continue. So change 957 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,480 Speaker 2: could happen that way. But we all know that it's 958 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 2: hard to sustain that kind of level of change. But 959 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,360 Speaker 2: it also needs to happen just on a simple you 960 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,880 Speaker 2: know there's low hanging fruit. You can listen to a podcast. 961 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:28,840 Speaker 2: You could go and follow five Indigenous musicians on your 962 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,080 Speaker 2: musical streaming service. You could read a book by someone 963 00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,040 Speaker 2: like Daniel Telaga, for example. There are all kinds of 964 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:40,600 Speaker 2: Indigenous authors who who will help you understand Indigenous realities 965 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 2: in this country in ways that hopefully will start to improve. 966 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,080 Speaker 2: And that was some of the goals of the Truth 967 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 2: and Reconciliation Commission. I told you that I covered these 968 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,560 Speaker 2: stories for years and years. I remember going to a 969 00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,440 Speaker 2: Truth and Reconciliation Commission event and there were I'm not 970 00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,920 Speaker 2: kidding you, Kate, there were thousands of children, thousands of 971 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,280 Speaker 2: children that attended that event, this very very very upsetting 972 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,880 Speaker 2: place where survivors were coming to tell their truths, to 973 01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:09,920 Speaker 2: tell their stories about the things that happened to them. 974 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,439 Speaker 2: And I said to the organizer of the event, why 975 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,280 Speaker 2: are there's so many children here, young children? He said, 976 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,600 Speaker 2: because we're planting seeds so that the next generation, the 977 01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,880 Speaker 2: next generation understands that this happened and that they remember it, 978 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,960 Speaker 2: and that we begin to start to see change. And 979 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,960 Speaker 2: I can say now, now I'm a journalism professor, I teach, 980 01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,040 Speaker 2: and I can say now that fifteen years ago, when 981 01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,800 Speaker 2: I started teaching and I would talk about residential schools 982 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,160 Speaker 2: in the classroom, there weren't any students who really knew 983 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,960 Speaker 2: much about residential school and that fortunately has started to change. 984 01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 2: That started to change. There are kids books about residential schools. 985 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,040 Speaker 2: There are textbooks about residential schools, and I think that's 986 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,280 Speaker 2: where the hope lies. Okay, you know, if this was 987 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:57,000 Speaker 2: a podcast about three kids who survived and one who didn't, 988 01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,320 Speaker 2: I think the hope for all of this is that 989 01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,400 Speaker 2: both Indigenous families start to repair the harm that was 990 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,400 Speaker 2: done and start to begin to say I love you. 991 01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,080 Speaker 2: And that's work that we as indigenous people's need to do. 992 01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,920 Speaker 2: We need to start healing the harms that have been 993 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,440 Speaker 2: inflicted upon our families and make our families stronger. And 994 01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:23,120 Speaker 2: Canadians need to start saying to their neighbors, I hear you. 995 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,560 Speaker 2: You know we don't ignore anymore. I hear you. 996 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 997 01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 998 01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,400 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 999 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:51,280 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 1000 01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,920 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 1001 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,720 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 1002 01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,560 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis 1003 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,440 Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode 1004 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,040 Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer, 1005 01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:14,800 Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen 1006 01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,440 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the 1007 01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:22,600 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1008 01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:27,040 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at Tenfold More Wicked and 1009 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wicked Words pod