1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. This is a topic I've 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: had on my list forever, but I kept getting distracted, 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: and a big reason was because at first glance, it 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: just kind of seemed like there might not be enough 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: information to really make it work. So whenever this topic 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: would come back to the forefront, as I was figuring 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: out what was going to come next, it was just 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: very easy to get pulled onto something else instead. It 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: turns out plenty of information did not need to be worried. 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: I also thought this episode was mostly going to be 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: about a fish, specifically the selacanth, which scientists in Europe 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: and North America believed had gone extinct about sixty six 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: million years ago until one was spotted in South Africa 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eight. Naturalist and museum curator Marjorie Courtney 17 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: Latimer played a key part in that, and I'm just 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: gonna say I've heard people say her last name slightly 19 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: different ways, depending on exactly where their accent is from. Uh. 20 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: I always planned for this episode to be at least 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: partially about Marjorie Courtney Latimer, because she's the person that 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: you know spotted this fish. Uh. Turns out though, she 23 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: became one of my favorite people to have researched on 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: the show in a long time, so now it became 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: her episode. Marjorie is a gift. Uh. Marjorie Eileen Doris 26 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Courtney Latimer was born on February twenty fourth, nineteen oh seven, 27 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: in East London in what was at the time Cape Colony. 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: As a child, friends and family called her Margie or 29 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: my Genie, and after she grew up most people called 30 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: her Marge. The family was white. Marjorie's father, Eric Courtney Latimer, 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: was born in British India, and her mother, Willie Fulton Rait, 32 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: was born in South Africa to British parents. Willie was 33 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: a widow who had two daughters from her first marriage, 34 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: and she and Eric had seven more together, although one 35 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: of those children died as a baby. Marjorie was the 36 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: oldest of Eric and Willie's daughters. Marjorie was born about 37 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: two months premature after her mother experienced a serious fall 38 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: during her pregnancy and was just very badly injured. They 39 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: weren't sure she was going to survive. Today, babies born 40 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: that early who have access to modern medical care often 41 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: do really well, but baby Marjorie was not expected to survive. 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: She had to be dressed in doll clothes and fed 43 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: with an eye dropper because she was just so tiny. 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: Even so, the whole family moved to Cape Town about 45 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: a month later after Eric got a new job, and 46 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: they moved a lot during Margie's early life. Eric worked 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: at an assortment of jobs before inheriting some money that 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: he used to try to start a diamond mine. That 49 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: mine failed. He eventually got a job working for the railroad, 50 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: and for the next couple of decades they all moved 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: from one outpost to another as the job demanded it. 52 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: These outposts often were kind of remote. Sometimes there wasn't 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: a school in the place where they were living, or 54 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: if there was a school, it didn't really offer a 55 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: full curriculum. So Willie really tried to make sure her 56 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: daughters always had something at home to interest them and 57 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: learn from. She had been raised on an ant's farm 58 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: without any other children around, and she'd spent most of 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: her time as a kid exploring nature and befriending the 60 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: African laborers who worked on her aunt's farm, so while 61 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: Willie didn't have formal education beyond being tutored by a governess, 62 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: she became something of an amateur naturalist and ethnographer, and 63 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: these were often the things that she really focused on 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: with her children. Family members described baby Margie as small 65 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: and frail, and as she got older, she was sick 66 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: a lot, including several serious illnesses like whooping cough, scarlet fever, diphtheria, 67 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: and the nineteen eighteen pandemic flu. But she also took 68 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 1: her first steps at the age of only seven months, 69 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: and from there quickly grew into a very bright, relentlessly 70 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: curious child with a deep and fearless love of the 71 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: natural world. She was tomboyish, but she also loved to 72 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: wear pretty dresses and was known to gather up ducklings 73 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: and kittens in her pinafore to carry them home with her. 74 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: From a very early age, she collected shells and rocks, 75 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: and bird eggs and flowers, and she developed a thorough 76 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: knowledge of all the plants that grew where they lived. 77 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes this fearlessness and curiosity could be dangerous. Family diaries 78 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: and correspondents describe a number of pretty close calls, including 79 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: when Margie was too an encounter with a cobra on 80 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: the family's porch. Apparently, the family thought had that cobra 81 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: not been separated from her by the porch rail, she 82 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: probably would have been bitten. When she got a little older, 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: she and one of her sisters accidentally poisoned another sister 84 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: by feeding her mud pies that had been seasoned with 85 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: seeds that turned out to be from a deadly nightshade. 86 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 1: Margie also nearly died after climbing up a windmill, only 87 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: for the windmill veins to start turning after a sudden 88 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: gust of wind. But there were also times when young 89 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: Margie's fascination with the natural world helped her family survive. 90 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: This was a violent and uncertain time in Southern Africa, 91 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: with the British South Africa Company and British colonists waging 92 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: war against African peoples and against the Boors, who were 93 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: people of Dutch, German and Huguenot ancestry. When Marchie was 94 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: about seven, five was called a serve during a Boer 95 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: uprising against the British government that would eventually grow into 96 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 1: the Third Anglo Boer War. The family had no way 97 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: of getting supplies after the boor sabotaged the railway lines, 98 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: and Margie taught her sisters how to forage and which 99 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: mushrooms were safe to eat. I would probably be hesitant 100 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: to trust the mushroom gathering of a seven year old 101 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: who also accidentally fed a sister deadly nightshade, but this 102 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: worked out for everyone. When Margie was about fifteen, she 103 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: and her three oldest sisters were sent to boarding school 104 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: at the Convent of the Sacred Heart in East London, 105 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: South Africa, and in spite of their erratic education up 106 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: to that point, all four of them did really well there. 107 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: Margie particularly excelled in biology. When she was sixteen, she 108 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: caught the attention of naturalist doctor George Ratre, who was 109 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: one of the examiners in her end of year tens. 110 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: He thought that she would be well suited for a 111 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: position working in a museum, and he really encouraged her 112 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: parents to send her to college, but that was something 113 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: that the family could not afford. It was also still 114 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: fairly unusual for women to go to college. The assumption 115 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: was that they would get married and become mothers after 116 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: leaving the Convent of the Sacred heart. In nineteen twenty five, 117 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: at the age of eighteen, Margie got a part time 118 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: job at a grocery store so she could pay for 119 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: art supplies, and she continued to live at home, spending 120 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,239 Speaker 1: a lot of free time building her collection of things 121 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: like flowers and bird eggs, and carefully painting what she 122 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: observed in the natural world. In June of nineteen twenty eight, 123 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: Margie became engaged to Alfred Hill, known as Alfie, but 124 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: it turned out Alfie didn't want a wife who went 125 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: tromping through the woods picking up bird eggs. He wanted 126 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: a wife who would stay home and keep house, so 127 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: she eventually broke off their engagement, and then turned down 128 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: her proposal from another suitor when it was clear from 129 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: the very beginning that he was not looking for a 130 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: naturalist wife. Eventually she started training as a nurse, but 131 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: then in nineteen thirty one, she was invited to apply 132 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: for the position of curator at the East London Museum. 133 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: This natural and cultural history museum had been founded by 134 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: the East London Museum Society, and its president was George Ratre. 135 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: Although the museum had technically existed since nineteen twenty one, 136 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: its first physical location was a one room shed rented 137 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty six. When Margie was approached about the position, 138 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: it was preparing to move to a new purpose built location, 139 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: which was the first purpose built museum in East London. 140 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: George Rattray, of course, was the person who recommended that 141 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: Marjorie Courtney Latimer apply for this role of curator. She 142 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: was only twenty four and she hadn't gone to college. 143 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: It's not even clear whether she took her matricula exams 144 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: from the Convent of the Sacred Heart before leaving that school, 145 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: but the hiring committee was really impressed by her thorough 146 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: knowledge of the natural and cultural history of Southern Africa. 147 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: She and her family had also visited a lot of 148 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: museums all around as they had been moving through her 149 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: father's work. She had very definite opinions about what museums 150 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: should be like. She thought they should be fascinating and 151 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: engaging to all of their visitors, not moldy and dusty 152 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: and boring. The committee also liked her enthusiasm and her 153 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: very obvious dedication to the idea of running the museum. 154 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: After she was offered the job on July fifteenth, nineteen 155 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: thirty one, she left her nursing training, although she kept 156 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: wearing her homemade nurses uniforms because it just didn't make 157 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: sense to her to throw them out. Repurposed nursing uniforms 158 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: were a staple of her wardrobe for the next couple 159 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: of years, and for the rest of her life. She 160 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: often wore outfits that we're in a very similar style. 161 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: She started work at the museum on August twenty fourth, 162 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, which was a month before it opened 163 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: at its new location. Although there had been other women 164 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: applicants to the position in East London, this made her 165 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: one of only two women in South Africa to be 166 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: running a major museum. For the next twenty two years, 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: she was the museum's only professional level employee. The other 168 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: people who worked there were things like custodians and gardeners 169 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: and a general assistant. More about the museum is coming, 170 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: as well as the celycanth after we paused for a 171 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: sponsor break. When Marjorie Courtney Latimer started working at the 172 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: East London Museum in nineteen thirty one, it really did 173 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: not have much of a collection, and some of the 174 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: specimens that it did have had to be destroyed because 175 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: they had been very badly damaged by a beetle infestation, 176 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: so she supplemented what was already there with her own 177 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: family's collections, like her collection of bird eggs, which was substantial, 178 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: and her sister's collections of butterflies and pressed plants. Her mother, Willie, 179 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: also had a collection of African cultural items that she 180 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: had built well before Marjorie was born with the help 181 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: of the African workers on the farm where she had 182 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: grown up. These became the foundation of the museum's ethnographic collection. 183 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: In addition to providing many of the items for the 184 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: museum's displays, Courtney Latimer also reworked the displays themselves. In 185 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: her opinion, some of the display cases were completely unusable. 186 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: In one case, she got an axe and chopped out 187 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: the central beams that were in the way and used 188 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: evening dresses belonging to her and her sisters to make 189 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: backdrops for a display of china and historical items that 190 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: belonged to her mother. The museum's born was impressed with 191 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: what she was doing, but also recognized that she needed 192 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: some more training, so she was sent to other museums 193 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: to get more experience in things like mounting and labeling specimens. 194 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty four, Courtney Latimer was part of an 195 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: expedition to excavate a fossil skeleton, which turned out to 196 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: be a nearly complete Canemiria that's a large herbivore from 197 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: the Triassic period. Excavating and mounting the skeleton was an 198 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: extremely long process, and during that time she got to 199 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: know Eric Wilson, whose father was a member of the 200 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: museum board, and whose sister, Bess, she knew from school. 201 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: This really seems to have been the only time that 202 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: Marjorie was courted by somebody who truly shared her interests 203 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: and encouraged her pursuits as a naturalist and a museum curator. 204 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: But in nineteen thirty five, Eric was called up to 205 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: the military, and while he was serving, he contracted pneumonia 206 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: and died. Marjorie was heartbroken. In her words to an 207 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: inter you were later on quote, he was the love 208 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: of my life and I never fell in love again. 209 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: To make things worse, Eric's mother was asking for her 210 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: after his death, but she was too sick herself to travel. 211 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: She had both bronchitis and the flu. Marjorie recovered and 212 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: she kept on with her work at the museum. One 213 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: day in July of nineteen thirty six, she saw a 214 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: woman sitting out in the museum's garden with her head 215 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: in her hands. She asked this woman what was wrong, 216 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: and she said she had a terrible headache. So Courtney 217 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: Latimer invited her into her office for a cup of 218 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: tea and some aspirin. They had a very nice conversation 219 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: about how much this woman liked museums. After she left, 220 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: Courtney Latimer saw her name in the guest registry and 221 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: it was Amelia Earhart, who was in East London refueling 222 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: her plane after making an emergency landing nearby. By that point, 223 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: Courtney Latimer had spent five years working almost entirely on 224 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: the museum. Whenever she took time off, she spent it 225 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: studying the natural world and gathering specimens for its collection. 226 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: She never wore trousers to do this work, and she 227 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: was also never bear legged, so she usually came home 228 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: from all of these excursions with her stockings in shreds. 229 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: This is like thing number four that made me go, 230 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: I love you so much. In nineteen thirty six, the 231 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: museum board insisted that she takes some actual leave and then, 232 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: of course she spent that leave on her work as 233 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: a naturalist. She arranged a trip to Bird Island in 234 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: Algoa Bay. This is a place that had fascinated her 235 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: since she was a child, and she could see the 236 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: light from its lighthouse when visiting her grandparents, but Bird 237 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: Island was not a place that women visited. In nineteen 238 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: thirty six, the superintendent of the islands in the Union 239 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: government literally told her that women were not allowed there. Finally, 240 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: he said that if Courtney Latimer found another woman to 241 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: accompany her, he would permit her to go. So she 242 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: asked her mom. Willie agreed to make the trip, but 243 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: then Marjorie's dad tried to put a stop to it, saying, quote, 244 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: I do not approve of this escapade at all. Eventually 245 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: he agreed, and then at the last minute decided that 246 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: he would join them. Yeah. I read on all this 247 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: is that the superintendent thought there was no possible way 248 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: she would get another woman to agree on this to 249 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: go on this trip, and that that would just mean 250 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: he wouldn't have to allow it. But he got caught, 251 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: and now he had so many women on bird Eyelid. 252 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: Now there were twice as many women as before. This 253 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: trip was an absolute dream come true for Marjorie. She 254 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: gathered fifteen cases of specimens there, including birds and their 255 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: eggs and nests, sea life and mammals, but her father 256 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: quickly regretted his kind of last minute decision to also go. 257 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: He found this whole trip incredibly boring. And then on 258 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: top of that, while they were there, King Edward the 259 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: Eighth abdicated the throne so he could marry Wallace Simpson. 260 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: They were almost completely cut off from the news, so 261 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: his dad was like, there's this drama happening and I 262 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: can't even get it on the radio. I can't watch 263 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: my programs. During this trip, Courtney Latimer met Hendrik Housen, 264 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: captain of a supply ship who would stop at Bird 265 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: Island to get rabbits so that his crew could have 266 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: something to eat besides fish. He and Courtney Latimer developed 267 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: a friendship, and he eventually helped her get those fifteen 268 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: cases of specimens back to East London, carrying them one 269 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: at a time when he stopped at port. Courtney Latimer 270 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: wrote a paper based on her research from this trip 271 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: called Observations of Turns on Bird Island, and one of 272 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: the tools that she implemented in the research she did. 273 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: There was banding, also called ringing, so that's just placing 274 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: a small ring or band on a bird, usually on 275 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: the leg, to identify it in later study. Courtney Latimer's 276 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: notes from this trip describe her as doing this on 277 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: Bird Island as early as December of nineteen thirty six, 278 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 1: which was more than a decade before banding became a 279 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: standard practice among ornithologists in South Africa. After she got 280 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: back to East London, Courtney Latimer kept in touch with 281 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: Hendrik Housen. She'd already developed a network of local birders 282 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: and nature enthusiasts to keep her informed about their observations 283 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: and to collect specimens for her. When Husin moved from 284 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: the packet ship to a trawler called the Nereene, she 285 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: asked him to keep an eye out for anything unusual 286 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: in his nets. He even had a tank on board 287 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: for keeping potential specimens until they got back to shore. 288 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: On December twenty second, nineteen thirty eight, Courtney Latimer got 289 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: a call at the museum letting her know that the 290 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: Noreene was at the dock with a load of like 291 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: one and a half tons of potential specimens. She really 292 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: didn't want to go down there though, While she did 293 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: really like looking for new fines for the museum, she 294 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: had reached a point where the fishing boats were mostly 295 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: bringing her things that she already had. It was also 296 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: summer and it was particularly hot that day. She was 297 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: trying to finish cleaning and mounting the Canemiria skeleton that 298 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, but she finally decided that this really 299 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: might be her only chance to pass along holiday wishes 300 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: to Housin and the crew. She considered all of them 301 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: to be friends, so she stopped what she was doing 302 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: and headed down to the docks. She took her assistant, 303 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: Enoch with her. Some accounts give his family name as 304 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: Thought and others as Elias. Enoch was Josa and his 305 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: work at the museum involved whatever needed to be done, 306 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: but he was also a big part of Courtney Latimer's 307 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: work with the African cultural objects and ethnography. Biographer Mike 308 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: Bruton describes Courtney Latimer as ahead of her time in 309 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: developing respectful relationships with the local African population and recognizing 310 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: that their lives and cultures were actively under threat from 311 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: European colonial and military efforts. Brutin also cites her experiences 312 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: with different African cultures as honing her instinct for storytelling 313 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: and with a realization that every object she encountered had 314 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: a story to tell. When they got to the dock, 315 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: Courtney Latimer didn't initially see anything of interest among all 316 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: of these fish, some of which were very large. But 317 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: then she saw a beautifully colored fin sticking out from 318 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: the pile, and at first she thought this might be 319 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: a lungfish. But then, in her words, quote, I picked 320 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: away in a layer of slime to reveal the most 321 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: beautiful fish I had ever seen. It was a pale, 322 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: movy blue with faint flecks of whitish spots. It had 323 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: an iridescent silver blue green sheen all over. It was 324 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: covered in hard scales, and it had four limb like 325 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: fins and a strange puppy dog tail. This fish was 326 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: very big, measuring roughly five feet or one and a 327 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: half meters long and weighing about one hundred and twenty 328 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: seven pounds. It's roughly fifty seven kilograms, way too big 329 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: for Husan's tank or for any kind of storage available 330 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: at the museum, so she and Enoch wrapped it in 331 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: the green sack that they had brought with them, and 332 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: they loaded it into a taxi, something the taxi driver 333 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: was understandably not especially happy about. They took it back 334 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: to the museum while they figured out what to do 335 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: with it. A lot of people they encountered with this 336 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: fish were like, I'm not taking that stinking fish, and 337 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: she was like, the fish does not stink like it 338 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: was a live hours ago. At this moment, it is fine. 339 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: Please chill out and let me put the fish in 340 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: the trunk or the boot, as she would have called it. 341 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: Uh as often happens when somebody is called to recount 342 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: the same story for years and years after it happened. 343 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: There are several somewhat different versions of what Courtney Latimer 344 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: did when they got back to the museum with this fish. 345 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: One is that she consulted some of their reference books 346 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: and concluded that it might be somehow related to Sela Cants, 347 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: but some later research suggests that the reference book that 348 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: could have told her that was not one that was 349 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: in the museum's collection. Another is that, in like thing 350 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: number five that I love about her, she remembered some 351 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: lines she had been made to copy as punishment in school. 352 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: When she had been caught not paying attention, and that 353 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: lesson was about fossil fish and the lines she had 354 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: to write out where something like a fossil fish has 355 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: ganoid scales, a fossil fish has limb like fins, and 356 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: still other retellings. She really did not know what it was. 357 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: She did bring up this fish to the head of 358 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: the museum board, who said that he thought that it 359 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: was just a rock cod, and then he left for 360 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: the Christmas holiday. Courtney Latimer could not ignore the possibility 361 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: that this fish might be important, though. She sent Enoch 362 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: to borrow a hand cart and together they loaded the 363 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: fish into it. First, they carted the fish to the 364 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: morgue at the Hospital, one of only two places in 365 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: East London that could keep something that big cold. After 366 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: being turned away from the morgue, they went to the 367 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: Cold Storage Commission, which also refused to store the fish. 368 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: Then they took the fish to taxidermist Robert Center. He 369 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: agreed to hold on to it if they could find 370 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: some way to preserve it. So Courtney Latimer went home, 371 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: where she got some old sheets from her mother. Then 372 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: she went to a chemist to get some formalin, which 373 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: is a preservative made of formaldehyde and methanol. She took 374 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: all this back to where center was. They tore the 375 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: sheets into strips and then wrapped the fish up in them. 376 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: They soaked all of this in the formalin and then 377 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: covered it up with newspaper, and then she went back 378 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: to the museum where she tried to call James Leonard 379 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: Brierley Smith at Rhodes University. Courtney Latimer and Smith had 380 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: known each other since nineteen thirty three. He was a 381 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: chemistry professor, but he had also become an expert in ethology. 382 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: Smith was not in so she left a message, and 383 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: when she had not heard back from him the next day, 384 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: she sent a letter with a rough sketch of the 385 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: fish asking what he thought. What followed was an incredibly 386 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: frustrating and stressful series of delays and missed communications. Courtney 387 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: Latimer would later describe it as the greatest trauma of 388 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: her career, and we will get to it after a 389 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: sponsor break. Rhodes University, where j LB Smith worked, was 390 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: about one hundred and sixty kilometers or roughly one hundred 391 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: miles from East London in but they were connected by rail. 392 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: He and Marjorie Courtney Latimer even had an arrangement with 393 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: the local railway superintendent to send marine specimens from the 394 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: museum to the university at no charge. She was basically 395 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: sending him duplicates of things that the museum already had 396 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,719 Speaker 1: when they came in on the fishing boats. Smith, though, 397 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: was not actually at the university when Courtney Latimer tried 398 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: to call about the fish she had found. He was 399 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: in Nicna, which was much farther away, recovering from an illness. 400 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: He and his wife had a second home in Nicsna, 401 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: and this home had a laboratory for his research, but 402 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: no phone. There was a phone at the museum, installed 403 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: just about a month before all of this happened, but 404 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: Courtney Latimer also did not have a phone at home. 405 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: Even if they had both had phones, the long distance 406 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: lines in South Africa at this point were such that 407 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: it could take hours for calls to go through, and 408 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: then long distance calls were also very expensive, and letters 409 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: between East London and Nisnak could spend up to a 410 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: week in transit. Courtney Latimer looked for a response from 411 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: Smith and checked on the fish every day, since she 412 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: didn't know he was away. When she hadn't heard from 413 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: him by the twenty sixth, She thought he must not 414 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: have thought the fish was important. By then, the fish 415 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: was exuding large amounts of oil, which she thought was 416 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: probably keeping the formulin from doing anything to preserve it, 417 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: so she told Robert Center to go ahead and try 418 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: to mount it with the hope of preserving its external parts. 419 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: Center was self taught as a taxidermist, and he had 420 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: very little experience mounting fish. Courtney Latimer directed him to 421 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: make his incision through the fish's belly rather than down 422 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: the side, as was typically done at this time when 423 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: mounting fish, because she wanted to preserve as much of 424 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: the skin and scales and like external identifying marks as possible. 425 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: He started his work on the fish on the twenty seventh. 426 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: Smith finally got Courtney Latimer's letter on January third, after 427 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: a friend came to Nisna and brought the mail in. 428 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: In Smith's words, when looking at the sketch she had drawn, 429 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: quote a bomb seemed to burst in my brain. He 430 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: did not think he would be able to get a 431 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: long distance call through to the museum before it closed 432 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: for the day, so he sent her a telegram reading quote, 433 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: most important preserve skeleton and gillsfish described. Smith then sent 434 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: a letter with some more detail, saying that this looked 435 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: like a fish that had been extinct for quote many 436 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: a long year, but that otherwise he had no idea 437 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: what it could be. He said he hoped that she 438 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: had retained the gills and the viscera to help him 439 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: identify the fish. Then he got up early on January 440 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: fourth to call her from a nearby shop, and this 441 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: call took almost three hours to actually connect. When she 442 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: told him that the viscera had been discarded because they 443 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: were rotting. At that point, he offered to hire a 444 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: plane and fly to East London himself so he could 445 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: pick through the dump to look for them. She called 446 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: him back on the fifth to let him know that 447 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: she had learned East London's trash was disposed of at sea. 448 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: That's its own issue, but that meant there would be 449 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: no picking through trash looking for fish guts. It was 450 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: days after this that Courtney Latimer finally received Smith's letter, 451 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: meaning she got a letter saying he hoped she'd kept 452 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: the fish's organs long after they'd been discarded, and after 453 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: they had already had multiple phone calls about it. And 454 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: this was really how their correspondence progressed over the next 455 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: few weeks. She kept getting letters telling her not to 456 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: do things she had already done, and suggesting that the 457 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: things she'd already done, which of course Smith didn't know 458 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: about yet, would be the wrong thing to do. Like 459 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: Smith sent a letter on the ninth saying the fish 460 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: must not be stuffed before it had been examined. That 461 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: was a week and a half after the taxidermist had 462 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: started work, and five days after she'd sent a letter 463 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: that made it clear that the taxidermy work had started, 464 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: but he had not received her letter yet when he 465 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: wrote his on the ninth. Smith's own accounts of this 466 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: time describe him making himself sick with worry over this specimen. 467 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: I'm not judging him for this, I absolutely understand the feeling. 468 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: But he was not shy at all about letting her 469 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: know how anxious he was about it. And he also 470 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: told her that the loss of the fish's organs was 471 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: quote one of the greatest tragedies of zoology. This was 472 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: something he said to her after she had already gotten 473 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: a telegram and a letter and two phone calls about 474 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: needing to retain the organs. Meanwhile, she was trying to 475 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: deal with so many things that were totally outside her control, 476 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: like the lack of refrigeration or a professionally trained taxidermist 477 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: in East London, and the fact that the photographer who 478 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: took pictures of this fish on the deck of the 479 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: fishing boat had accidentally dropped the film into the mud 480 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: and ruined it. Smith eventually decided to cut his trip 481 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: to Niceness short by a week, leaving on February eighth, 482 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: although he noted to Courtney Latimer that he didn't really 483 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: think he needed to hurry since he wouldn't be able 484 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: to examine the fish's internal organs. He planned to go 485 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: directly to East London, but torrential rains meant that he 486 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 1: did not get there to see the fish until February sixteenth. 487 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: By that point, based on Courtney Latimer's sketches, her very 488 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: detailed descriptions of everything about the fish, and some scales 489 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: she had sent to him, he had concluded that this 490 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: fish must be some sort of sela canthd. This fish 491 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: had first been described and named by Lewis Agassiz in 492 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,239 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty nine, with a name coming from words that 493 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: meant space and spine. Which referenced the hollow spines along 494 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: the fish's backbone as we sat up at the top 495 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: of the show. Though Western science had believed selacanthed fish 496 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: to be extinct and to have gone extinct all the 497 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: way back in the late Cretaceous period. After looking at 498 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 1: the mounted fish in East London, Smith asked for it 499 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: to be sent to the university so that he could 500 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: spend more time studying that. But before that it was 501 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: put on temporary display at the museum, and on February twentieth, 502 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, more than fifteen hundred people came to 503 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: see it. Local newspapers covered the event and published photos, 504 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: something Smith was concerned about because he was afraid that 505 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: someone else would try to claim credit for the fish's discovery. 506 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: A LB. Smith published a letter in Nature on March eighteenth, 507 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty nine, titled a Living Fish of the Mesozoic Type. 508 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: This described the fish as a close enough relative to 509 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: the Mesozoic selacanthods as to be included in that family, 510 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: and he named the fish Latimeria Chalumney after Marjorie Courtney 511 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: Latimer and the Chelumna River, near where Hendrik Housen had 512 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: caught it in his trawling nets. When Smith called Courtney 513 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: Latimer to tell her he had named this fish for her, 514 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: she said the credit should have gone to Housen, who 515 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: was the person who actually found it. After spending some 516 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: time studying the fish at Rhodes University, Smith sent it 517 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: back to the East London Museum. By that point it 518 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: had become clear that Robert Center had done his best 519 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: on the taxi Derby, but that it really needed to 520 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: be remounted by someone who had experience with fish, particularly 521 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: very oily fish. So Courtney Latimer person escorted the selacanth 522 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: to the South African Museum in Cape Town to be 523 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: remounted by taxider Miss James Drury. Meanwhile, she was facing 524 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: backlash from the scientific community about how she had handled 525 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: the fish, as scientists and researchers jumped to the conclusion 526 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: that she just hadn't known what she was doing, or 527 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: had been inattentive or thoughtless or unaware of the specimen's 528 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: potential importance. Smith acknowledged this criticism in a longer piece 529 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: published in Nature on May sixth, writing quote, several letters 530 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: from overseas have contained very harsh criticism about the loss 531 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: of the carcass of this fish. Few persons outside South 532 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: Africa have any knowledge of our conditions and the coastal belt. 533 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: Only the South African Museum at Cape Town has a 534 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: staff of scientific workers, among whom is an ichthyologist. The 535 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: other six small museums serving the coastal area are in 536 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: extremely poor circumstances and generally have only a director or 537 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: curator who cannot possibly be an expert in all branches 538 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: of natural history. There are not uncommon fishes in the 539 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: sea which to any of the latter would appear as 540 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: strange as, if not stranger than a cela canthid. It 541 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: was the energy and determination of miss Latimer which saved 542 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: so much, and scientific workers have good cause to be grateful. 543 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: The genus Latimera stands as my tribute. This did not 544 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: really quell all the criticism, though, and scientists kept taking 545 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: potshots at Courtney Latimer in their papers. For example, on 546 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: July thirteenth, nineteen forty, Arthur Smith Woodward published a paper 547 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: in Nature which claimed the specimens quote scientific value was 548 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: not appreciated, saying this was why only its external parts 549 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: had been preserved. Woodward's name may sound familiar because he's 550 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: come up on the show before he and Charles Dawson 551 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: published work on a skull that came to be known 552 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: as the Piltdown Man, which was revealed to be a 553 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: hoax after both of their deaths. Courtney Latimer was deeply 554 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: hurt by these criticisms. I mean, she had gone above 555 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,479 Speaker 1: and beyond trying to save as much of this fish 556 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: as possible, but she also had other things to worry about. 557 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: The United Kingdom and Germany declared war on one another 558 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: the day she returned to East London after escorting the 559 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: fish to Cape Town. She had helped establish a chapter 560 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: of the Red Cross in East London, and she became 561 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: actively involved in it during the war, including being elected 562 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: chair of the East London Chapter. She eventually had to 563 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: step back from a leadership role with the Red Cross 564 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: to keep up with her work at the museum, but 565 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: she remained active in it for the duration of the war. 566 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: As the war was ongoing, the East London Museum received 567 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: a grant from the Carnegie Trust which allowed a display 568 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: to be made for the taxidermy fish, as well as 569 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: a cast. Part of the money was used to compensate 570 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: Who's in for his work in collecting the specimen. Smith 571 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: desperately wanted to find another selacanth to study, but the 572 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: war put a complete stop to his efforts to find one. 573 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: After the war ended, he tried to establish the African 574 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: Selacanth Marine Expedition or ACME to find another specimen, but 575 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: he couldn't get funding for it. In nineteen forty eight, 576 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: he started distributing pamphlets to fishers offering one hundred pound 577 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: reward for a specimen, with very clear instructions not to 578 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: cut or clean the fish, but to get the entire 579 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: thing into cold storage right away. The East London Museum 580 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: moved into a larger space in nineteen fifty, by which 581 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: point Courtney Latimer's title had changed from curator to director. 582 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: In the nineteen fifties, the museum also started hiring additional 583 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: professional staff, so it was no longer just her and 584 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: an assistant doing everything themselves. In nineteen fifty two, Achman 585 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: Hussein caught a selacanth off of the Comoro Islands in 586 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: the Indian Ocean. Captain Eric Hunt, who was one of 587 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: the people who had distributed some of those pamphlets, contacted 588 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: Smith about it. Smith was in a weird coincidence once 589 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: again traveling. This time, he was away on a fish 590 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: collecting expedition. Word reached him about the find four days 591 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: after the selacanth was caught, basically the next time he 592 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: came to shore. This is kind of like how when 593 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: you're at a sporting event, your team will only score 594 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: if you go to the bathroom. Yeah. Getting to the 595 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: specimen was a challenge this time because there were no 596 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: commercial flights connecting where he was on the eastern coast 597 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: of South Africa to islands that were between the north 598 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 1: parts of Madagascar and Mozambique. Smith convinced the Prime Minister 599 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: of South Africa to deploy a military aircraft for this purpose, 600 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: which then required negotiations with the government of Mozambique to 601 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: explain why a military flight needed to cross its airspace 602 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: and make a refueling stop there. It did not seem 603 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: believable that all of this was to get a fish. 604 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: Marjorie Courtney Latimer really was not involved in this effort 605 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: to find another selacant specimen, but she was there on 606 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: December thirty first, nineteen fifty two, when Smith arrived with 607 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: it along with his wife Margaret, and their son William, 608 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: on a South African air Force, Dakota. Marjorie Courtney Latimer 609 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: was awarded an honorary doctorate from Rhodes University in nineteen 610 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: seventy one. She retired from the East London Museum in 611 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, at which point she moved to vittelsboth 612 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: South Africa. She did a lot of hiking and bird 613 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: watching and grew a garden full of indigenous plants and 614 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: expanded the kitchen of her home herself, and she also 615 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: worked with museums in the area. She had been kind 616 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: of worried that if she stayed in East London she 617 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: would never actually leave the museum and her successors wouldn't 618 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: get to fully step into their roles. And the fact 619 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: that she was soon doing museum work in her retirement, 620 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: I think her impulse was correct. Yeah. She did move 621 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: back to East London around nineteen eighty seven at the 622 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: age of eighty, as her family members became concerned about 623 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: her living in an area that was so much more 624 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: remote and very far away from them. She had a 625 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: heart attack in nineteen ninety five and experienced some other 626 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: health issues afterward, including developing shingles. In two thousand and one, 627 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: she had a pacemaker implanted. After having another heart attack, 628 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: she was eventually diagnosed with osteoporosis, and after a fall, 629 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: she was moved into Fairland's Frail care Home. Marjorie Courtney 630 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: Latimer really wanted to go back home, but for a 631 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,479 Speaker 1: number of reasons, her pension was very small. Her stay 632 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: at Fairland's Frail Care Home was subsidized, but she couldn't 633 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: afford the care that she would need to live at home. Eventually, 634 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: her friends worked out a plan to arrange for the 635 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,439 Speaker 1: care she would need to live safely and comfortably at home, 636 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: and a plan to pay for it, but she died 637 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: on May seventeenth, two thousand and four, at the age 638 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: of ninety seven before she could be told about these arrangements. 639 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: Speakers at her funeral included Nossimo Ballindela, Premiere of the 640 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: Eastern Cape. Marjorie Courtney Latimer worked at the East London 641 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: Museum for more than forty years, shaping it into one 642 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: of the most respected museums in South Africa and developing 643 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: our reputation both for its permanent collection and its temporary exhibits, 644 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: which she always tried to make very lively and engaging. 645 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: During her career, she also published forty two papers on ornithology, 646 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: and she became known for her conservation advocacy. There is 647 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: some irony here, since collecting all these specimens for the 648 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: museum involved killing animals and removing plants and other objects 649 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: from their environment, but she wrote extensively about clean water 650 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,720 Speaker 1: and air and habitat conservation and environmental protections. She also 651 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: advocated for domestic cats to be licensed because of the 652 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: impact they have on bird populations when they're kept outdoors. 653 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: The June two thousand and four edition of the Selacanth, 654 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: the Journal of the Border Historical Society, was dedicated to 655 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: Marjorie Courtney Latimer, and Latimer's Landing Docks in East London 656 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: are named after her. The East London Museum also still exists, 657 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: and it has a seilacanth on its logo. Today there 658 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: are two recognized species of selacanth. Latimia chelamney lives in 659 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: the Indian Ocean near the coasts of southeastern Africa, Madagascar 660 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: and the Comoro Islands, and Latimara mennaedoensis lives near northern 661 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: Sulawesi in Indonesia. Although Western science had believed these fish 662 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: to be extinct, they were known to people in the 663 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: Comoro Islands and Sulawtan, Although since they usually live in 664 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: deep water and they only feed at night, they were 665 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,959 Speaker 1: not fish that were just routinely seen all the time. 666 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: They weren't caught or observed all that often. Because of 667 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: their habitat and behavior. Not much is known about them, 668 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: but Latimria Chelimnay is considered to be critically endangered and 669 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: Latin Maria Menadonsis is considered vulnerable. As a way to 670 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: sum it all up here is something Marjorie Courtney Latimer 671 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: wrote in nineteen seventy nine, quote this story is one 672 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: of the most astounding records of a woman's intuition. For 673 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: had I never gone to Bird Island, had I never 674 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,760 Speaker 1: met doctor J. LB Smith, who, of all the scientists 675 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: I meant as a young girl struggling with meager funds 676 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: in a small museum, always gave encouragement and never criticism. 677 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: And had I not gone to the wharf to wish 678 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: the men a happy Christmas, there never would have been 679 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: a Sela camp discovery in South Africa on twenty two 680 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: December nineteen thirty eight. I love her, She's great. I 681 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: also have some great listener mail. This is from Kelly 682 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: and it was written after our episode in the London 683 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: Frost Fairs, and Kelly wrote, Dear Holly and Tracy, I'm 684 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 1: a high school history teacher for twenty seven years. Not 685 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,879 Speaker 1: sure how that happened, as I am as young as 686 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: the day I started. I teach APUs history to sophomores 687 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: and accelerated humanities to seniors. I started listening to the 688 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: podcast during the pandemic. I listened in the many walks 689 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 1: I took with my sweet dog Charlie, who has sadly 690 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: passed away. I went all the way back to the 691 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: really short episodes, and I will earn my PhD in 692 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: stuff you miss in history class later this month or 693 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: in early March. I am finally writing to you both 694 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: to first of all, thank you for an amazing podcast. 695 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what I will do when I don't 696 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: have a seemingly endless que to listen to. But I 697 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: was recently listening to the episode on Frost Fairs and 698 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: you mentioned that you were interested in frozen water stories. 699 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: I live in Michigan, and the Jewel of up North, 700 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,760 Speaker 1: as we Michiganders call it, is Mackinaw Island. The island 701 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: is in the Straits of Mackinaw, which is where Michigan's 702 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,280 Speaker 1: Upper and Lower peninsula are joined by the beautiful Mackinaw Bridge. 703 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: Yet the spelling changes in case you are not familiar. 704 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: The first Mackinaw I've been saying is m acki Nac. 705 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: You're right, it doesn't match. And then the bridge is 706 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: m acki Naw. Macinaw Island is a quaint place that 707 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: does not allow motor vehicles except for emergency vehicles. All 708 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: transport is done with horses and bicycles. It is also 709 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: well known for its fudge, which comes in many varieties 710 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: and are so delicious. The island is also well known 711 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: for the Grand Hotel, which has served the rich and famous, 712 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,760 Speaker 1: and was the backdrop for the movie Somewhere in Time 713 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: starring Christopher Reeves and Jane Seymour. Ferries run from the 714 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: mainland in the late spring through fall, but historically in 715 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: the winter, when the straits would over they would line 716 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: an ice path from the mainland with the discarded Christmas 717 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: trees from the holiday season. Macinaw has a rich history. 718 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: It might be a great episode for the future. Thank 719 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: you for all you do, Kelly ps attaches my pet tax. 720 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 1: This is Quincy, my two year old pity mix. This 721 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: dog is so cute. We have a dog sleeping on 722 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: a little bed that's been made of what looks like 723 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: a cushioned bed type thing of some sort and some blankets, 724 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: sleeping in an almost catlike position there. And then we 725 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: have puppy face looking in a window and looking over 726 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: what I think is the arm of a chair. I 727 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: love these dog pictures. I also love earing stuff about 728 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: Mcinaw Island. As you probably noticed when I spelled the word, 729 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: it is not spelled Mackinaw. And every time I'm listening 730 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: to a podcast or the radio or whatever and I 731 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: hear somebody say Mackinac, I'm like, oh no, your emails, 732 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: your mansions, they're gonna be full of corrections. There are 733 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: a couple of places that prompt that response for me 734 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the time when I hear someone 735 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: say them that one, I would probably never mess up 736 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: because that is a place my mom and dad used 737 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: to go a lot when they were recording. Yeah. Yeah, 738 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: it is a place that if you live locally, you 739 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,240 Speaker 1: know how to say it, and if you live anywhere 740 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 1: else and you sound it out as how it is spelled, 741 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: it would be Mackinac. I think at some point, many 742 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 1: many many years ago we might have even said it 743 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: Mackinac on the podcast. Uh So, anyway, I love these 744 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: dog pictures. I love hearing about making an ice path 745 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 1: and lining it with the leftover like with the Christmas 746 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: trees from the season. I love all of this. Thank 747 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: you so much Kelly for this email. Uh if you 748 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 1: would like to write to us about this any other 749 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,840 Speaker 1: podcast or a history podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com and 750 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: we're all over social media on mist in History, and 751 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: you can subscribe to our show on the iHeartRadio app 752 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: or wherever you like to get your podcasts. Stuff you 753 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 754 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,439 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 755 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,439 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.