Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
Speaker 1: There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, Dave Kustin's in here with us.
Speaker 1: I just heard him laugh and snicker to himself, which
Speaker 1: is always a heartwarming sound. And it's as he mispronounced
Speaker 1: his name. No, no, I said it right. Couston thought
Speaker 1: it was Coustan. No, that's what you wanted to sound
Speaker 1: like when you're French. No, this is Couston, like Houston exactly,
Speaker 1: but with the sea instead of an h. Couston means
Speaker 1: that I'm one day closer to you. What. That's a song, right,
Speaker 1: Houston means that I'm one one step. That's a country jam. Okay,
Speaker 1: I was gonna guess Dion Warwick. She always like singing
Speaker 1: about about Susan, Yeah, about San Jose at cetera. Okay,
Speaker 1: that was a Backer act Burt Backer act song. Um,
Speaker 1: and she popularized it because she did it so well.
Speaker 1: Do you know the way to San Jose? Okay, I
Speaker 1: didn't know she's saying that. Oh yeah, I guess she
Speaker 1: popularized it with everyone but you. Okay, that was sarcastic. No,
Speaker 1: that was that was pretty straightforward direct sarcastic would have
Speaker 1: been like, um, oh, I'm sure you didn't know that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess that would be sarcastic. It wouldn't have made
Speaker 1: much sense, but yes, you know what's funny, chuck in.
Speaker 1: In researching this, I kept trying to come up with
Speaker 1: um examples of sarcasm, and it's one of the hardest
Speaker 1: things in the world to do with with thought. Sarcasm
Speaker 1: is like almost always off the cuff or not very
Speaker 1: well thought out. It's which which um, I think is
Speaker 1: one reason why you know, most people will agree that
Speaker 1: somebody who is an employing sarcasm, even when they're not
Speaker 1: very good at it, is the funniest person in the world.
Speaker 1: Right then, see that's sarcasm. I I can't help myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this researching sarcasm really makes you take a long, hard
Speaker 1: look in the mirror, doesn't it. It really does, and
Speaker 1: at people who are big fans of Deadpool. Oh I
Speaker 1: do like Deadpool. Uh, here's my ideal with sarcasm. It
Speaker 1: is laying ones. I mean I definitely can be sarcastic.
Speaker 1: I think all of us can be, and I think
Speaker 1: it can be used for funzies but I definitely see
Speaker 1: where I can be a real a hole sometimes by
Speaker 1: being sarcastic, like to Emily. And that's like the sort
Speaker 1: of that goes back to my end. Boy, I'm sort
Speaker 1: of revealing some stuff here, but that it falls under
Speaker 1: the umbrella of of my communication issues instead of being
Speaker 1: like straightforward with something may be being sarcastic but passive
Speaker 1: aggressive and me and and sarcasm all kind of go
Speaker 1: hand in hand. I think, Yeah, so you've hit upon
Speaker 1: something that I think is not really necessarily obvious to
Speaker 1: just anybody when they are confront of a sarcasm. Is
Speaker 1: that No, sarcasm is a way to hide. It's a
Speaker 1: way to hide from emotions. It's a way to hide
Speaker 1: from direct conflict if you're not um big into conflict.
Speaker 1: It's a way to hide from criticizing somebody when you're
Speaker 1: not big into that but you really need to or
Speaker 1: you want to. And you said it it's passive aggressive.
Speaker 1: But I think we should make the distinction. And I
Speaker 1: I um came across this very late in research, but
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense to me that there's
Speaker 1: a distinction between sarcasm and verbal irony, and that sarcasm
Speaker 1: is at its core, insulting, mocking, harmful, and hurtful, whereas
Speaker 1: verbal verbal irony is just basically like a joke where
Speaker 1: no one gets insulted, where where maybe a situation is
Speaker 1: being made fun of, Like if it's exactly if it's
Speaker 1: raining cats and dogs, yes, that would be verbal irony,
Speaker 1: not sarcasm. Um. I saw a really great example about
Speaker 1: the distinction on I can't remember. It was like a
Speaker 1: TV and film writing website, but they basically said, in
Speaker 1: that sense, that would be verbal irony. But if you
Speaker 1: were the spouse of a meteorologist who for forecast a
Speaker 1: sunny day when they came home and it was raining
Speaker 1: cats and dogs, and you said, great weather today, that
Speaker 1: would be sarcasm because you're insulting or mocking them for
Speaker 1: getting it wrong. Right, Like, let's say you and I
Speaker 1: are neighbors. Great weather today, Josh, Oh you said it
Speaker 1: their neighbor. Hey, I can speak for myself, Oh you
Speaker 1: said it there, neighbor. Different than Hey, nice job with
Speaker 1: your front lawn, Josh, and I sank swimming under you.
Speaker 1: You're the six year old that takes everything literally exactly
Speaker 1: because I have, uh, I have noticed that. What made
Speaker 1: me think of sarcasm. You picked this article, but I
Speaker 1: was like, that's kind of perfect because having a kid
Speaker 1: will make you realize how often you're sarcastic because they
Speaker 1: don't get it, at least not yet. She's uh, just
Speaker 1: during six same days you happy birthday, Yeah, happy birthday,
Speaker 1: Ruby too, and very sweet gifts that you sent, and
Speaker 1: you guys exchange the video messages, which was adorable. But um,
Speaker 1: she's six and she still doesn't get sarcasm. And I've
Speaker 1: had to say like that was sarcasm and she's like
Speaker 1: what And I'm like, man, why just keep that purity
Speaker 1: alive of them taking things literally? Yeah, yeah, don't don't
Speaker 1: introduce sarcasm to your kid, but you can't help it. No,
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, Like, there's there's a whole school
Speaker 1: of thought that it's like to heck with sarcasm, Like
Speaker 1: we don't need it. People who use sarcasm are annoying,
Speaker 1: insecure people. Um there, it's it's not a nice thing
Speaker 1: to do or say, like there's better ways of getting
Speaker 1: your point across, and it's not even particularly funny. But
Speaker 1: the thing is is I've found that when you follow
Speaker 1: that thread, there's like something inherently problematic with it, and
Speaker 1: that there is some value to sarcasm in some some instances.
Speaker 1: It's just one of those things that should be wielded
Speaker 1: very delicately and infrequently in the right context. But if
Speaker 1: you do it like that, sure, and if you do
Speaker 1: it like that though, it can be um very useful
Speaker 1: and actually some studies have found um that it's actually
Speaker 1: beneficial brain wise too. Although researching all of the sarcasm
Speaker 1: stuff has just reiterated my um my belief that social
Speaker 1: psychology as a field should be completely dissolved and they
Speaker 1: should just start from scratch again because it is almost
Speaker 1: exclusively useless. It is so bad. We should have a
Speaker 1: every time you go off on social psychology, we should
Speaker 1: have a sound effect. We would just start employing again,
Speaker 1: just get that part. We should hire a barbershop quartet,
Speaker 1: just full time to stand behind us. Made up was
Speaker 1: exclusively as social psychologists exactly who can also sing the
Speaker 1: sweet sweet tunes? So Webster's defines, Um, that's a great start,
Speaker 1: chuck Uh. It's actually the Oxford English Dictionary if you
Speaker 1: want to go back to the original definition, which I
Speaker 1: think it is useful. We don't love to read definitions,
Speaker 1: but its first definition was a sharp, bitter or cutting
Speaker 1: expression or remark, a bitter jibe or taunt. And the
Speaker 1: word itself even derives from ancient Greek from to tear flesh,
Speaker 1: gnash the teeth, and speak bitterly. So it seems like
Speaker 1: from the beginning sarcasm was not like a nice and
Speaker 1: and super funny thing for people. Know, And apparently the
Speaker 1: ancient Greeks um had their own famous sarcast and Socrates
Speaker 1: who was um known for what's now known as sark
Speaker 1: Socratic irony, which is terrible where basically you play dumb
Speaker 1: uh when you're talking to somebody in order to kind
Speaker 1: of get their true opinion out about something, and then
Speaker 1: you destroy their opinion and you suddenly become intelligent and
Speaker 1: destroy their opinion. It's a terrible, terrible thing to do.
Speaker 1: But apparently Socrates was well known for that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: so much so that they named it after him. That's right.
Speaker 1: He it's called the how how about them? Apple's approach? Right?
Speaker 1: Um Interpreting sarcasm, That's that's where it gets tricky because
Speaker 1: and that's why a six year old and we'll get
Speaker 1: two kids more because and some people say that by
Speaker 1: that age they can detect sarcasm. But we'll get to that. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that that my daughter can't yet because that
Speaker 1: means that she's not a jerk yet. But as far
Speaker 1: as picking up on these clues, you, the words themselves
Speaker 1: you can't rely on. So what you're looking for? Other
Speaker 1: kinds of clues uh that are myriad um. One of
Speaker 1: which is obviously the tone of voice. Uh. Let's say
Speaker 1: you can't even see the person. If you see someone
Speaker 1: say great weather today, like you, you know without even
Speaker 1: looking out the window, that that probably means it's it's
Speaker 1: raining or something. Yeah, I don't even need to look.
Speaker 1: They just saved you the effort, right. And some people
Speaker 1: say that that's a nasal tone. Uh. This kind of
Speaker 1: seemed a little hinky to me, But some researchers have
Speaker 1: said that there's a connection between that, um, sarcasm and
Speaker 1: extreme disgust, and that's why it comes out nasally, like
Speaker 1: you're trying to expel something through like your mouth and
Speaker 1: your nose. Great weather, like your nose wrinkles. I guess
Speaker 1: a little bit I can see maybe. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: of course their physical cues like a a good eye
Speaker 1: roll or at least like looking up when you say
Speaker 1: something is a big, big clue. Yeah, that one in
Speaker 1: particulars because your brain is going haywire because you're saying
Speaker 1: the opposite of what you mean. And researchers have concluded
Speaker 1: that that looking up, which kind of looks like an
Speaker 1: eye roll, is actually processing difficulty. Your brain was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what, dude, You just make the eyes
Speaker 1: look up while I try to figure out what I'm
Speaker 1: doing here. That that's that. Yeah, there's social psychology is
Speaker 1: big contribution. Um. As far as the intonation, uh, there's
Speaker 1: some researchers that have called that inverse pitch obtrusion, which, uh,
Speaker 1: great weather is if it was really great weather, you
Speaker 1: would say great weather today. Huh. And if not, you'd
Speaker 1: say great weather. So your your tone and your intonation
Speaker 1: goes down as a clear signal of sarcasm. Yeah, which
Speaker 1: supposedly intonation or pitch um inverse pitch obtrusion is um
Speaker 1: pretty universal as far as languages go. Are different cultures
Speaker 1: because other cultures are sarcastic just American, No, And there's
Speaker 1: a big there's a big debate online about whether it's
Speaker 1: a universal whether sarcasm is universal, and some people are
Speaker 1: saying like, yes, it's everywhere, like even if a culture
Speaker 1: has a taboo against it, which some could, although I
Speaker 1: couldn't find which ones. Um, although I think China has
Speaker 1: widely pointed to is a not a very high sarcasm culture. Um.
Speaker 1: But that if you have if your culture has a
Speaker 1: taboo against sarcasm, you have to be aware of sarcasm
Speaker 1: to have a taboo against it. So it's still in
Speaker 1: that sense universal, even if it's not universally used or
Speaker 1: accepted by each culture. Yeah, for sure, I could see
Speaker 1: Japan is not being super sarcastic. So I read an
Speaker 1: article about Japan. It was like a business writer's um experience,
Speaker 1: like a British expat working in Japan, and he said
Speaker 1: he used sarcasm and like he didn't really get much
Speaker 1: laugh much of a laugh, And later on he said
Speaker 1: he was explaining it to his Japanese call colleague was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know it was sarcasm. We we know all about sarcasm.
Speaker 1: Grossly inappropriate to use it. Right then I think I
Speaker 1: was like, oh god, I love it. Oh we know
Speaker 1: what sarcasm is. That just that was just not good. Sorry.
Speaker 1: Another thing you can do is elongate your words. Um,
Speaker 1: it's much difference to say oh sorry than to say sorry, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's a great, great one. That's intonation and elongating a word.
Speaker 1: I guess combined with that eye roll, you can also
Speaker 1: go the opposite way and take a word that should
Speaker 1: be said kind of um with oomph and deflating it.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I'm big. I'm big on that one, like, um,
Speaker 1: like wow, yeah great. I say that a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we we We are very sarcastic people. I've come to realize.
Speaker 1: I use for some reason. I know you didn't see
Speaker 1: Fletch and you hate Chevy Chase, but I well you no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I love Yeah, He's my favorite. He's so funny. Um.
Speaker 1: I will would use a line from his flag occasionally. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I would use it. I guess
Speaker 1: whenever there was a cop or something, I would say,
Speaker 1: thank God the police. And he says that line like
Speaker 1: that in the movie. Yeah, I can. I can totally
Speaker 1: see it wearing a baseball cap too, I'll wager m hmmm,
Speaker 1: probably maybe. Uh. You mentioned other cultures. Um, if you're
Speaker 1: a teacher of Esaul, English is a second language that
Speaker 1: is one of the trickier parts of teaching English to
Speaker 1: UH people as a second language, as adulter as kids
Speaker 1: even is is trying to teach them things like sarcasm
Speaker 1: if they're not super familiar with it. And sometimes apparently
Speaker 1: they will say, here, watch watch this TV show because
Speaker 1: you know, there's quite a bit of sarcasm on TV sitcoms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: supposedly that's a really good way to pick up on
Speaker 1: on sarcasm is watching sitcoms. Probably Friends in particular, I
Speaker 1: would guess. I'm guessing they assigned Friends a lot to
Speaker 1: be any more sarcastic. So, Chuck, this is kind of
Speaker 1: a willy nilly episode, and I kind of like them
Speaker 1: that way. I'm just gonna go ahead and confess. So
Speaker 1: there's no clear place where we should put an AD
Speaker 1: break in, So I suggest that we put an AD
Speaker 1: break in right about here. That's a great idea. Stuck, Stuck, Stuck.
Speaker 1: I don't know that you know it. Stuck in this.
Speaker 1: It's a great name. That's the name of it. It's
Speaker 1: a great name, alright, stuck with a with an X.
Speaker 1: You know. I have to say, when I was researching this, Chuck,
Speaker 1: I was wondering if we were gonna just do the
Speaker 1: weird thing in not be sarcastic. I just think that
Speaker 1: that was there was never gonna happen, was it. No,
Speaker 1: I think it's it was clear from the beginning to
Speaker 1: me that we were gonna throw our own little brand
Speaker 1: of sarcasm in. I can't help it, chunk, I can't
Speaker 1: tell if you're being straight. I can't either. So we're
Speaker 1: talking about kids, um and whether or not they understand sarcasm.
Speaker 1: And there's been um some research on this kind of thing, um,
Speaker 1: and of course it's come up with contradictory findings. One
Speaker 1: thing I saw was that kids you kept mentioning six
Speaker 1: year old's not really getting sarcasm. That's about when they
Speaker 1: start to pick it up somewhere around age six. That's
Speaker 1: when they start grade school. Okay, do with it, maybe so,
Speaker 1: But but from what I saw, they might recognize it
Speaker 1: as sarcasm. They just don't understand it as a way
Speaker 1: to employ humor. And that that comes at about age ten,
Speaker 1: which happens to coincide when kids become obnoxious. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: and then it's all then you reap what you sow
Speaker 1: as a parent because you're like I taught you this
Speaker 1: method and UH, it's being used used against me like
Speaker 1: a weapon. There was a study in France French speaking
Speaker 1: kids in two thousand five that showed UH kids the
Speaker 1: age of five understood sarcasm when they when the sarcastic
Speaker 1: speaker was using intonation um. Where it took to be
Speaker 1: over seven to be able to tell by context, and
Speaker 1: context is when like I think the example they used
Speaker 1: in the article was if you're like having a longer
Speaker 1: conversation about UH family member being a bad gift giver,
Speaker 1: and then at the very end you say, but I
Speaker 1: love my sweater that they got me, and maybe see,
Speaker 1: like I said it even sort of regular, but contextually
Speaker 1: it would still be sarcastic. I don't know, Like even
Speaker 1: in that example, I just found it confusing to tell you. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess it could be I was a little too
Speaker 1: I sold it too well. It sounded yeah, it sounded
Speaker 1: really genuinely earnest. Right, that's the slip. That's the slippery
Speaker 1: SLOPO sarcasm, so um one of the other uh. In
Speaker 1: addition to kids not necessarily getting sarcasm, people with dementia
Speaker 1: or Alzheimer's um or brain lesions have been found to
Speaker 1: not necessarily, um, get sarcasm. And if you stop picking
Speaker 1: up on sorry sarcasm all of a sudden, Uh, that's
Speaker 1: a really good indicator that you might need to go
Speaker 1: get an m R. I too sweet, Yeah for sure. Uh.
Speaker 1: And not just that, they are all kinds of neurodiversities
Speaker 1: that people can have that make them not able to
Speaker 1: pick up on sarcasm. I know that sometimes people with
Speaker 1: autism have difficulty understanding sarcasm. Um. They might take things
Speaker 1: a little more literally then uh, neurotypical people might. So
Speaker 1: it's you know, you gotta know who you're dealing with, um,
Speaker 1: when you're throwing sarcasm around and being sensitive that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, right for sure. So um, So people with
Speaker 1: autism are famously kind of associated with an inability to
Speaker 1: detect sarcasm. And from what I've seen, that's not really
Speaker 1: the best way to put it. That they that many
Speaker 1: people with autism can detect a detect sarcasm, use sarcasm um,
Speaker 1: some find it funny, Others can recognize it but don't
Speaker 1: necessarily find it funny. Um. But there's different I don't
Speaker 1: know if they're competing or not. There's different theories as
Speaker 1: to why that's the case. It supposedly UM. People with
Speaker 1: autism tend to use more literal thinking than UM. The
Speaker 1: kind of UM, well, let me just say, sarcasm is
Speaker 1: known as a form of unplaine speaking, along with some
Speaker 1: other kinds like UM forced politeness, where you like, are
Speaker 1: nice as somebody who who's got you hate UM are
Speaker 1: using aphorisms UM or ritual language like when you say
Speaker 1: I'm fine when somebody asks you how you're doing, even
Speaker 1: though you're not fine. UM. Sarcasm falls under that. It's
Speaker 1: it's not saying what you mean directly. And so if
Speaker 1: people with autism tend to use direct thinking and literal thinking,
Speaker 1: if you use indirect or unplane speaking, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: hard for them to pick up on. They're gonna take
Speaker 1: it at its literal meaning, they might not pick up
Speaker 1: on the sarcasm um. And so that that kind of
Speaker 1: tend that UM tendency to think literally combined with UH
Speaker 1: an undeveloped theory of mind, which is where you can
Speaker 1: put yourself in the other person's shoes and imagine what
Speaker 1: they're thinking easily, which is what sarcasm requires you to do,
Speaker 1: because they're saying something different, but you know that's not
Speaker 1: what they mean, and that requires that you go into
Speaker 1: their mind and tool around. Those two things combined tend
Speaker 1: to explain why people with autism are kind of thought
Speaker 1: of as not detecting sarcasm. You got a job, Okay, thanks? Thanks.
Speaker 1: If I had rainbow suspenders on right now, I would
Speaker 1: have just snapped him after them. I actually had those
Speaker 1: when I was a kid. I wanted those for a
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, I mean it was the whole Mork
Speaker 1: and mindy thing. I even had the buttons on them,
Speaker 1: and I wore the khaki pants. I did my best
Speaker 1: to beat work from work. Yeah, so Morks suspenders are
Speaker 1: obviously primo. But there's an overlooked vest, a puffy vest
Speaker 1: that he wears in the credits when they're on the
Speaker 1: football field that I would say even top the rainbow suspenders.
Speaker 1: I would love to get my hands on that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: looking back, I was just trying to be in work
Speaker 1: from work, but I was dork from dork. I don't
Speaker 1: have any pictures of that, unfortunately. Can you mention wearing
Speaker 1: those with like a spinning bow time like now? No,
Speaker 1: especially as a kid like I don't know about this guy,
Speaker 1: but this kid wearing that you'd be all right, Uh,
Speaker 1: if you're talking about the brain. That was a study
Speaker 1: in two thousand five that, um, and this kind of
Speaker 1: stuff is always I feel like we just have to
Speaker 1: say it, even though people are like, Okay, those are
Speaker 1: the three parts of the brain. Thinks nothing to me.
Speaker 1: But the three parts the language cortex and the left hemisphere,
Speaker 1: the frontal lobes and the right hemisphere and the right
Speaker 1: the right ventro medial prefrontal cortex. You're gonna hear the comment,
Speaker 1: and your language cortex kicks in and understands the literal
Speaker 1: meaning great weather. Right. Then the frontal lobe and the
Speaker 1: right hemisphere have the context it's raining. And then that
Speaker 1: right ventro medial prefrontal cortex puts the two together and
Speaker 1: it goes sarcasm dummy, right, and the laugh region goes
Speaker 1: bananas down the laugh region. It's sometimes it can be funny,
Speaker 1: but it's you've got to really be good at it.
Speaker 1: So um, Chuck, I was talking about how sarcasm qualifies
Speaker 1: as unplane speaking. That's like the general umbrella that it
Speaker 1: falls under, right, Um, and that the fact that it
Speaker 1: is unplaine speaking where you can get a message across
Speaker 1: just as easily directly saying the weather sucks today. What
Speaker 1: is the point then, of using sarcasm, of saying great
Speaker 1: weather today rather than this weather sucks today. Um. There,
Speaker 1: and so linguists, researchers, um, you know, speech scientists, talkie doctors,
Speaker 1: all these people together have have come up with this
Speaker 1: idea that there must be some additional thing that's going
Speaker 1: on there. Clearly that there is something gained by using
Speaker 1: sarcasm over using the direct message that gets the same
Speaker 1: point across, because sarcasm has got a little extra mustard
Speaker 1: on it, and they've tried to get to the bottom
Speaker 1: of exactly what that mustard is. And I'm sorry to
Speaker 1: use mustard. I know you don't like it very much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And by the way, my dog might actually be barking
Speaker 1: some in this episode and there's just nothing I can do,
Speaker 1: and I think that makes it folcasy. We usually trying
Speaker 1: to edit that out. But well, to see, um, there
Speaker 1: are a couple of ideas on why people do it. Um,
Speaker 1: Like when it's a purposeful thing and not just like
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be funny or whatever. Um. Sometimes well,
Speaker 1: sometimes it could just be as easy as like you
Speaker 1: have a very hard time being straightforward with someone, and you,
Speaker 1: like you said, you use it to high, to use
Speaker 1: it as a defense or something like that, Um, cloaking
Speaker 1: something in a positive term. Oh, you did a really
Speaker 1: great job with that episode, Josh. Um. That's sarcastic criticism,
Speaker 1: whereas you can do the exact opposite. Uh, if you
Speaker 1: and I were out. Um. I mean the example that
Speaker 1: use in the article is fishing and I'm not catching
Speaker 1: any fish and you're just like catching tons of fish.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh boy, you're really you really suck at
Speaker 1: that fishing thing. That is a sarcastic compliment. And this
Speaker 1: is all wrapped up under what's called the Tinge theory
Speaker 1: of sarcasm, which is you're you're trying to mute either
Speaker 1: your criticism or your praise of somebody by throwing like
Speaker 1: slapping that mustard on it. Yeah, by tinging it with iron.
Speaker 1: Hence the name. Right. There's also like a related one
Speaker 1: that really just kind of looks at them the criticism
Speaker 1: part um. It's called politeness theory, and it basically just
Speaker 1: says that we use sarcasm to criticize because it makes
Speaker 1: the criticism more palatable. And so you put that together,
Speaker 1: and that is one interpretation of what sarcasm is. Therefore,
Speaker 1: it's meant to boost, it's meant to mute either the
Speaker 1: compliment or the praise or the criticism. But then there's
Speaker 1: another one that's that basically says the exact opposite, that
Speaker 1: sarcasm is meant to be like more biting, that it's
Speaker 1: meant to really make the mustard spicy and put it
Speaker 1: right near your eye. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing.
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, get the value somewhat of using
Speaker 1: sarcasm rather than God, if you're just straightforward about everything,
Speaker 1: it's like it's sort of borish. Like if let's say
Speaker 1: you're you were with the friend who you're hanging out
Speaker 1: and your friend is always talking over you and you
Speaker 1: don't get a chance to get a word in edgewise,
Speaker 1: and you made a little sarcastic dig in front of
Speaker 1: people like like, oh no, I'm sure they're gonna let
Speaker 1: me speak any minute now. That person would go, all right,
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying, Like it may be a
Speaker 1: little bit of an a whole sarcastic comment. But what
Speaker 1: if someone was always just like pulling you aside and
Speaker 1: being like you just never let me speak, and it
Speaker 1: would just really like, I think there are times to
Speaker 1: be straightforward, but like that, but if you're like that
Speaker 1: all the time, it's like, God, no one's gonna be
Speaker 1: around you either yeah, or or even if you didn't
Speaker 1: pull him aside at the table, if you were like, shuck,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but it's my turn to speak. You you're
Speaker 1: not letting me speak, so I'm going to speak now. Really,
Speaker 1: just like straightforward happened to say, Yeah, that's gonna just
Speaker 1: like just gonna be a record scratching. Like you said,
Speaker 1: no one wants to hang out with you. And that's
Speaker 1: what I was talking about the outside of this that
Speaker 1: it's like the idea of just getting rid of sarcasm altogether,
Speaker 1: there's something inherently wrong with that, because if use correctly,
Speaker 1: sarcasm is a it's a social lubricant that just keeps
Speaker 1: the party going. Yeah, totally, because at least everyone gets
Speaker 1: a laugh. It might be at their expense a little.
Speaker 1: They get the message, and you don't like stop the
Speaker 1: fund of the party by make having a real serious
Speaker 1: talk about interrupting people and then starting your point that's right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then everyone wants to hear what you gotta say, right. So,
Speaker 1: so the other idea is that sarcasm is used to
Speaker 1: make criticism more biting. That it's basically like this this.
Speaker 1: If I did just say, you know, um, uh, you
Speaker 1: know you didn't screw that up. Or no, if I said,
Speaker 1: you know, Josh, you really screwed this episode up, I
Speaker 1: can't even criticize you hypothetically. I'm sorry. If you said
Speaker 1: to me, Josh, you really screwed this episode up, um,
Speaker 1: I would be like, oh, well, go sit on it, Chuck.
Speaker 1: But if you said, boy, you didn't screw that episode
Speaker 1: up at all, Josh, I would be leveled for months, basically.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what that interms. That's what that
Speaker 1: theory is, the rival theory to Tinge theory, that that
Speaker 1: it actually gives an even more emotional impact to criticism
Speaker 1: than otherwise would have directly. Yeah, and I think not
Speaker 1: to get too personal, but I think you and I
Speaker 1: as partners have learned to deal with each other a
Speaker 1: little more straightforwardly over the years that I think that's
Speaker 1: how we both prefer to be handled by each other
Speaker 1: as and that's with us, like it's different. For it's
Speaker 1: not like I can be super sarcastic with other people,
Speaker 1: but I know that that wouldn't be a very nice
Speaker 1: thing to do to you. Does that make sense? Sure,
Speaker 1: it makes sense. I think that you can be sarcastic
Speaker 1: with me. Well I can't give it a try. Come on,
Speaker 1: you got uh? I could be. I can be. Just
Speaker 1: held their breath there, like is he about to level Josh?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can be, And I am sarcastic
Speaker 1: with you, but only in like fun ways, like I
Speaker 1: would know never a no now to not make try
Speaker 1: and make a real point with you. I see, I
Speaker 1: see what you mean. Yeah, And and they have like
Speaker 1: a real conversation if it's really yeah, yeah, okay, I
Speaker 1: got you, I got you? Sure yeah, oh so chuck.
Speaker 1: The other thing about this, too, is there's a there's
Speaker 1: another theory. It's like, no, this is everybody you're just overthinking.
Speaker 1: This is just humor. Like people are dressing up and
Speaker 1: otherwise boring or pedestrian point that they want to get
Speaker 1: across with with just a little bit of humor. And
Speaker 1: it's like sarcasm is an easy way to use humor.
Speaker 1: Oscar Wilde said it was the lowest form of wit,
Speaker 1: but the highest form of intelligence, and that second part,
Speaker 1: I think he was referring to the fact that it
Speaker 1: it takes some something and to make a sarcastic comment,
Speaker 1: and it also takes them thinking to decode it too.
Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily funny. Right, But that is supposedly
Speaker 1: the humor, and it is another theory for why we
Speaker 1: use sarcasm, that it's just it's just humor. And I
Speaker 1: think from researching all this, all of those makes sense.
Speaker 1: And social psychology, in typical fashion, has found um findings
Speaker 1: that support all of them and none of them at
Speaker 1: the same time. Should we take a break? Sure, all right,
Speaker 1: let's take a break. We'll talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: that and a little bit of the use of it
Speaker 1: throughout history and culture and arts and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Right after this. Stuck Stuck. I don't know that you
Speaker 1: know it's stuck Stuck. It's a great name, that's the
Speaker 1: name of it. It's a great name. Alight with with
Speaker 1: an X. All right. If you want to talk uh literature,
Speaker 1: you can't get any more sarcastic at times than Mark
Speaker 1: twain Um. Shakespeare was pretty sarcastic at times, Chaucer was
Speaker 1: fairly sarcastic at times. They used an example in this
Speaker 1: article of the Bible that I didn't read as sarcasm.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a bit of a stretch myself,
Speaker 1: and we'll go ahead and read it. This is from
Speaker 1: Ecclesiasts eleven nine. Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and
Speaker 1: let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood.
Speaker 1: And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires
Speaker 1: of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you
Speaker 1: to judgment for all these things. That feels more just
Speaker 1: sort of like a one to joke than sarcasm, I guess. So, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they were like, there's got to be something
Speaker 1: in here, and that's the best they could come up with. Maybe,
Speaker 1: like we gotta find some sark them in the Bible, guys.
Speaker 1: Get um. The thing is with that, like that kind
Speaker 1: of reveals like the one of the problems with sarcasm
Speaker 1: is that when it's just written, especially it's written a
Speaker 1: couple of thousand years ago, it's really difficult to discern sarcasm.
Speaker 1: You have to use whatever cues you can get because
Speaker 1: you've had a lot of the normal cue stripped, like
Speaker 1: all those facial expressions, the intonation um, all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Is gone, and now it's just the printed words, so
Speaker 1: basically what you have as context. Um. And for that
Speaker 1: reason and because we are entering I guess we've already
Speaker 1: entered this digital age where like the written word is
Speaker 1: basically how we convey thoughts. Now, sarcasm has really taken
Speaker 1: a beating lately because um, study after study keeps finding
Speaker 1: that people grossly over overestimate how clearly their sarcasm is
Speaker 1: coming through in like texts and tweets and emails and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and that it actually isn't being understood
Speaker 1: as sarcasm on the other end, even though the person
Speaker 1: who's sending the email or text thinks they're sarcasm is
Speaker 1: clear as a bell. Yeah, just don't try to be
Speaker 1: sarcastic in emails, especially for work. I think it's just
Speaker 1: a good rule. It's like, don't even try because it's
Speaker 1: not going to come through. And like you said, you
Speaker 1: probably think it does. It's not obvious to other people.
Speaker 1: If you're texting with friends and stuff, you can you
Speaker 1: can do things like overspell things like say great or
Speaker 1: you know, say insert the I roll emoji or even
Speaker 1: say sarcasm in parentheses or something like that. The one
Speaker 1: I've seen. It's the backslash s yeah. I mean that's
Speaker 1: definitely no backslash. Which one is it? It's one of
Speaker 1: the slashes. It's a backslash followed by an say so
Speaker 1: backslash s um. Because you know, for the first I
Speaker 1: don't I remember. For for the first few years of
Speaker 1: like social media and texting and stuff like that, there
Speaker 1: was a lot of talk about like how do we
Speaker 1: indicate sarcasm and uh, and the emojis kind of help
Speaker 1: solve that problem, but you can't do that in emails,
Speaker 1: like professional emails. You're not gonna send an emoji I
Speaker 1: roll emoji. No, don't do it. Okay, you might as
Speaker 1: well put three exclamation points at the end of that's great.
Speaker 1: Are we not doing that either? This is why I
Speaker 1: don't email anybody. I don't know what I'm doing. But
Speaker 1: when I do email them, it's at like ten o'clock
Speaker 1: on a Saturday night. One of the cons of sarcasm um.
Speaker 1: You know, it's, like you said, you can use it
Speaker 1: and employ it in certain certain circumstances, but there are
Speaker 1: people who just think it is a hostile act and
Speaker 1: it is a way to say something and also let
Speaker 1: yourself off the hook for saying that thing at the
Speaker 1: same time, and that it is hostility veiled as humor,
Speaker 1: is what uh how they put it in this article,
Speaker 1: and you know, at times it very much can be that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the UM like marriage counselors, um uh therapists, like
Speaker 1: basically anybody who's who's dedicated to improving you as a
Speaker 1: person in exchange for money, UM has kind of zeroed
Speaker 1: in on the worst version of sarcasm. The the very
Speaker 1: strict definition of sarcasm is not verbal irony, but as
Speaker 1: an insult, as mocking somebody, as it being veiled hostility,
Speaker 1: Like you're saying passive aggressiveness, that kind of thing, and
Speaker 1: that that is no way to communicate, especially with somebody
Speaker 1: that you care about or love, that you should be forthright, direct,
Speaker 1: honest with them. They're not saying, like, you know, make
Speaker 1: sure you cut out humor. They're basically saying, sarcasm isn't humor,
Speaker 1: and if you if you think it's humor, like seriously,
Speaker 1: like like, just go find better humor because there's plenty
Speaker 1: of better stuff out there. He's right, and they so
Speaker 1: they're they're basically saying, like kind of just cut that
Speaker 1: out of your interpersonal relationships, at least again with people
Speaker 1: you care about, because it probably does mask passive aggressiveness
Speaker 1: and it's not doing anything but harming your your relationship.
Speaker 1: And in fact, John Gottman UM, who is a very
Speaker 1: renowned couples therapist and his wife are together, UM says
Speaker 1: that UM sarcasm is one of the indicators of contempt,
Speaker 1: along with eye rolling, along with like raising a lip
Speaker 1: like kind of in disgust while you're talking. That that
Speaker 1: if you pickiece together, that you you are signaling that
Speaker 1: you have contempt for your significant other, and that contempt
Speaker 1: is one of the He calls them the four horsemen
Speaker 1: of UM of a marriage. That it's a it's a
Speaker 1: really good predictor of divorce when couples speak to each
Speaker 1: other with contempt, and one of those ways that they'll
Speaker 1: speak to each other with contempt is through sarcasm. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's just not a pleasant Like it's one thing
Speaker 1: to be sarcastic here and there, But I have a
Speaker 1: friend whose father, stepfather whether is the most sarcastic I
Speaker 1: roy person I've ever met in my life to an
Speaker 1: alarming degree. And it's just so like it's such a
Speaker 1: turn off to be around this dude. You're like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to have sex at all when I'm around,
Speaker 1: certainly not with him. Uh yeah, he just and you
Speaker 1: can tell like his marriage is suffered and there's he
Speaker 1: can't be straight, and it's just a it's just a
Speaker 1: chore to be around this guy. I hope he listens
Speaker 1: to this and it's like talking about he's talking about
Speaker 1: me and he changes his life. No, he would never
Speaker 1: listen to this. He wouldn't give me dissatisfaction. So wow,
Speaker 1: that guy. Huh yeah, he's that guy. So there there.
Speaker 1: This is not to say that there's like, no, nothing
Speaker 1: good about sarcasm. There. There's this one group of social
Speaker 1: psychologists who made names for themselves by basically saying no, no.
Speaker 1: We figured out that if you take a test of
Speaker 1: creativity immediately after engaging in a sarcastic exchange, you're going
Speaker 1: to score higher on that test of creativity than you
Speaker 1: would had you not been involved in a sarcastic exchange
Speaker 1: immediately beforehand, and that has been turned into in the
Speaker 1: popular precess Sarcasm Boost Creativity across the Board. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess the idea that it it challenge you challenges you
Speaker 1: to think in a different way because it's not straightforward.
Speaker 1: May have a little something to it, but I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a reach. There's other things. It
Speaker 1: provides social bonding, like you and your friends, um, being
Speaker 1: sarcastic about stuff, especially if you're being sarcastic about like
Speaker 1: a shared target, yeah, like your teacher. Sure, it's a
Speaker 1: great example. Um. It maintains social egalitarianism, like taking that
Speaker 1: fisherman down a peg before he gets a big ego
Speaker 1: for catching some fish. Um. And it can make you
Speaker 1: seem apparently, as far as Harvard Business Review says, more
Speaker 1: competent and intelligent at work. Um, which makes sense in
Speaker 1: that you know, you do kind of have to be
Speaker 1: sharp at the very least, you're paying a little more
Speaker 1: attention probably if you deliver a sarcastic remark successfully. Right.
Speaker 1: It's also risk by that you can also really come
Speaker 1: off looking like like your friend's dad basically. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: just professionally like that stuff back. That's my advice. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the one thing I saw was I came across
Speaker 1: a k State I think it's Kansas State newspaper from
Speaker 1: like two thousand eleven maybe where they were talking about
Speaker 1: how sarcasm just totally pervades our society, and um, they
Speaker 1: gave an example of how primed we are for sarcasm,
Speaker 1: that when we encounter earnestness, like we we might be
Speaker 1: confused set first in some situations. And the writer gave
Speaker 1: this great example of Michael Richard's apology after he went
Speaker 1: on that racial tirade at the laugh Factory and then
Speaker 1: like a couple of days later went on Letterman and
Speaker 1: the audience did not get Some of the audience who
Speaker 1: hadn't heard about this, I guess, did not get that
Speaker 1: this was like a real apology, and part of it
Speaker 1: was his presentation that it seemed like he was doing
Speaker 1: a bit kind of and the audience remember tittering, and
Speaker 1: Jerry Seinfeld, who was like in the studio with Letterman,
Speaker 1: had to turn to the audience and be like, stop laughing,
Speaker 1: it's not funny, and like tell them like he wasn't,
Speaker 1: that this wasn't sarcasm, that this was for real, and like,
Speaker 1: if you go back and watch it, if you're a
Speaker 1: fan of laughing at things that make you deeply uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: like you will love that bit. It was. I remember
Speaker 1: it at the time. I think it had a lot
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that it was Kramer and
Speaker 1: it was hard to just take him seriously. That's exactly
Speaker 1: what it was. Yeah, man, what a mess. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was a massive made it even worse. Yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go watch that again today. Actually I could
Speaker 1: use some cringe humor. Yeah, um, have you got anything else? Oh? No, Josh,
Speaker 1: I had nothing else. Yeah, I check. This went real well.
Speaker 1: We did a great job. Man, I'm annoying myself even now,
Speaker 1: So let's just send this to Since I said I'm
Speaker 1: annoying myself, let's go to listen to ma'am. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: call this Elton John song because why not? Hey guys,
Speaker 1: love Love, Love your podcast and making making my way
Speaker 1: through the whole catalog. I've been tempted to write, but
Speaker 1: it didn't think I hadn't even interesting to say before.
Speaker 1: You may not think it's interesting now. I do, though,
Speaker 1: But what finally prompted me is when you were talking
Speaker 1: about Elton John and the Soul Train episode so long ago,
Speaker 1: Josh said he'd never heard the song burned Down the mission.
Speaker 1: That made me think of the powerful song ticking from
Speaker 1: Elmon John seventy four Caribou album. Song was way ahead
Speaker 1: of its time in the way that it foretold many
Speaker 1: future her events. I can't ever remember it being a popular,
Speaker 1: well known song, but you've not heard it. Go listen
Speaker 1: to it gives me chills every time I hear it.
Speaker 1: Keep up the good work, guys. And this is from
Speaker 1: Dinah Clay Melvin in Fort Worth, Texas. And I went
Speaker 1: back and looked at the lyrics and dude Ticking is
Speaker 1: a song about a uh an aggressive ticking time bomb,
Speaker 1: white male shooter from ninety four, and it's all right there.
Speaker 1: I I'm assuming Bernie Taupin wrote it. I'm not. I
Speaker 1: didn't look it up, but I think he was kind
Speaker 1: of writing all of his stuff back then. Who Bernie Taupin?
Speaker 1: Oh you do? That's a referential joke to another episode
Speaker 1: from the conversation we had. I guess probably in the
Speaker 1: episode that this guy is talking about oh boy um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's interesting to go back and listen
Speaker 1: to that song from early nineteen seventies. Of and of
Speaker 1: course it wasn't a big hit like she said, but
Speaker 1: it's a I don't know, it's just interesting to hear
Speaker 1: that and be like, man, you can't. You couldn't write
Speaker 1: a song that on the nose today. So there, he
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one who was predicting that at the time.
Speaker 1: Like Stephen King had a short story about a kid
Speaker 1: who comes in and like just shoots up his school,
Speaker 1: and it's basically it's like this teenage revenge fantasy, but
Speaker 1: it was exactly what ended up happening. Like twenty years later,
Speaker 1: he wrote that I can't remember what that one was called, um,
Speaker 1: and then there's like, um, remember falling Down that movie
Speaker 1: with Michael Douglas from The Ladies that was basically about
Speaker 1: that as well. Yeah, um, so yeah, I could see.
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure we don't give Elton
Speaker 1: John undue credit here is kind of what I'm going after.
Speaker 1: Oh man, okay, you're classic beef with Elton John. Alright,
Speaker 1: so I think we're at the end of this episode,
Speaker 1: aren't we. I hope we are, all right. While it
Speaker 1: was a little bit of short stuff crossover right there,
Speaker 1: So let's let's end this as we normally do. If
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, like Diana did,
Speaker 1: h you can send us an email to Stuff Podcast
Speaker 1: at iHeart Radio dot com Stuff you Should Know is
Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H