WEBVTT - Why is WikiLeaks important? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:08.920 It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:18.200 tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.799 Welcome to tech Stuff. My name is Chris Pollette and 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.119 I am an editor how stuff works dot Com. Sitting 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.320 across from me, as always, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.920 You took an oath if you recall when you first 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.040 came to work for me, And I don't mean to 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.000 the National Security Advisor of the United States, I mean 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.680 to his boss, and I don't mean the president. You 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.440 gave your word to his boss. You gave your word 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.239 to the people of the United States. Your word is 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.839 who you are. Actually it seems like three words. Oh no, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.320 I'm sorry. I was just just the one. So, yeah, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.440 today we're gonna talk about a pretty sticky subject. Yeah, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.319 this is gonna be a pretty complicated subject as well. Yeah, 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.959 and it's no surprise that's sticky, because things often are 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:07.480 sticky after a leak. You like how I did that? Yeah, 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.160 I am suffering sleep deprivation, but I can still make 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:14.959 a bad pun. So we're gonna talk about wiki leaks. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.760 Now you've probably heard about this site if you're not 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.840 already familiar with it from visiting visiting it. Wiki leaks 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.800 is a site that has been in the news quite 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.200 a bit. In fact, the day that we're recording this podcast, 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:32.120 news about wiki leaks is exploding across the internet. Yeah, 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.880 it's still coming fast and furious. Um only in the 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.440 day we're recording this. It's only been a few days since. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:45.200 Uh the site posted two twenty new cables uh from 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.840 the United States government in a batch of a much 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.640 much larger batch of different communications, right, like hundreds of 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:58.520 thousands of communications. Um. So and by cables, we're specifically 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.240 saying messages. Yes, and I kind of thought that was funny, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.200 but that uh, we're still using that term to describe 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.520 these different messages. These these types of messages have been around, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.680 uh for literally hundreds of years. Uh. The United States 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:19.440 step that United States correspondence around the world. Um, we're 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.720 talking people like diplomats of different varieties, uh, intelligence officers 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.280 pass these these different kinds of cables back and forth 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.720 between one another. Some of them are are coded, Uh, 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.360 some of them are not coded, but they're still coded. Yeah. 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:35.800 Some of them are listed as secret, but they're not 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.959 necessarily top secret. It's essentially meant for, you know, for 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.600 the people to whom the cables concerned, Right, it's not 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.200 not meant for general public consumption. Yeah. And and in 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.880 a lot of cases it's uh, it's not meant for 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.720 the consumption of the people they're talking about. Two. And 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.800 in some cases they're just completely not flattering. You know, 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:01.639 the ambassador from so and so, it's a real nimrod, Right, 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.800 he's kind of or or he's flabby. Yeah, there there's 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.760 some there's some personal attacks in them. Well, let's let's 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.399 really talk about what wiki leaks is. First of all, 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:16.359 it is a nonprofit organization. Um. It's its main outlet 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.160 is its website, which, depending upon when you listen to 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.120 this podcast, may or may not be available when you 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.240 try to navigate to it. This morning, when I tried 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.600 to navigate to it, Uh, it was the the official 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.160 website u r L was was gone. Like if you 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:34.520 try to go to it, and said that there was 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.960 something wrong. Um and sometimes that just happens, was essentially 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.480 the message. But there were there are lots of mirror 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.960 sites up there that still we're working, so I could 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.280 still navigate to Wiki leaks it's just I couldn't go 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.720 to the official U r l r UM and I 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.400 think it's it's important to note um, at least, I 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.080 think it is important to say that this is not 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.400 affiliated with you know, the wiki media, right, you know 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:04.160 that that started Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons and so many 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.880 of the other wiki sites. It uses a wiki, right, 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.720 it's using the Wicki as the foundation for the website. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.480 So I don't know if there doesn't seem to be 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.120 a lot of con I'm having trouble talking today, a 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.599 lot of confusion about that. But I think it's important 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.600 to notice that despite the fact that it's got Wicki 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.839 in there, it's not like a trademarked words. It's two 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.640 separate entities. This is nothing to do with the Wikipedia folks. Now, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.320 this is this actually comes from someone else, not inside 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:36.160 the United States. Um. His name is Julian, Yes, Julian Assange. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.920 He's founder and editor in chief of Wiki Leaks, also 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.120 sort of the public face of the site. Yes, yes, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.520 he is. Indeed, he's not the only one working on this. 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.280 It's not a one man operation by any stretch of 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.680 the imagination. But he he's sort of the he's definitely 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:57.960 the personality that is, for better or worse, connected incontrovertibly 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.919 with wiki leaks. Nice, thank you. I had to slow 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.760 that down because I wasn't sure I could pronounce it. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.080 I'm also having trouble with my words today at any rate. 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.840 So Julian Assange, he finds he's one of the founders 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.440 of the site or the founder of the site. The 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:18.240 site launched publicly in two thousand seven. Um it's really 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.920 just been in the news in UH or it really 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:24.720 started to take off in the news, but in two 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.280 thousand seven was when it was when it launched. Uh 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:32.000 and it's a project of the Sunshine Press. Now. The 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.400 purpose of wiki leaks is again it's a nonprofit organization. 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.599 It's purpose is to be a place where you can 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:44.000 uh leak information. You can drop information that's important that 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.400 is being hidden in some way, that's not being um 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.919 uh distributed to the general public, but is other but 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:58.159 it's very important information or it's supposed to be right. 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.479 I mean, the idea here is that the governments are 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:08.760 performing actions and and uh and distributing, distributing information that's 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.680 above the heads of the citizens. And the philosophy of 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.760 wiki leaks is that's a bad thing. That government should 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:21.040 be much more transparent, particularly a representative government, which presumably 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.159 is representing the interests of the people. Right, you're talking 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:29.000 about people who elect specific individuals to represent them in 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:33.320 an official government capacity. Well, if this if they're if 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:35.800 the government is not transparent, you don't know if your 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.760 representatives are doing a good job or not, or or 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:40.760 doing what you want them to do. It may turn 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.440 out that the government is acting in a way that 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.080 is against the wishes of the people it represents. And 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.040 then you have to ask yourself is this a legitimate government? Now? 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.680 These are big ideas, and I'm not saying the Wiki 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.039 leaks answers them in any way, shape or form, but 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.360 it's kind of their philosophy that information needs to get 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.000 out there, and they are a kind of a dump 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.599 been ground for information, right Right, That's that's really what 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.719 I think most of the debate is at this point 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:10.280 is is this uh, is this leaked information serving a 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.440 higher purpose and serving the people? And um, you know 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.040 this isn't It's not limited to the information from the 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.640 United States. There there are other sources of information as well, 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.720 and some of the information that has been leaked from 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.760 the United States government also affects other nations. So this 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:32.120 is something that's that's affecting people the world over. Now. UM, 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.960 as a former newspaper reporter, I can tell you that, UM, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.160 this is a role that in the United States has 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.640 been typically carried out by the press, by the by 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:47.480 the news media, UM, and has has been uh also 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:53.960 done in the past by and several pretty high profile cases. UM. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.320 You know, I can think of several off hand, and 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.440 I'll bring one up later. UM when we get into 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.239 the actual source of this particular information, because really Wiki leaks, 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.000 though it has been around, it wasn't until they got 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.120 some information from one particular person, well one allegedly from 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.440 one particular person that would be a private first cup 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:19.720 Private first class Bradley Manning, who uh who has been 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:25.760 basically charged with supplying confidential information including two fifty one thousand, 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:31.239 two D eighty seven cables, UM, which apparently were gleaned 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:38.280 from a military database or databasees and smuggled out theoretically, 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.959 why I say, I should say, allegedly on a CD 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.839 labeled Lady Gaga. Yeah, this this raises some questions about 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:50.520 security within the military, you said, or what was his rank? Again, 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.720 Private private first class. He's a noncommissioned officer, right, Private 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:58.000 first class, and so you think, okay, well, at least 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.439 on some level, you would assume that the information person 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:05.200 could access would not be critical information because he's not 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.880 really of a rank that would allow him to see 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:14.560 information that's classified above secret. Right. However, you would also 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:16.520 think that there wouldn't be an easy way to get 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.559 that information off of the system and then into someone 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.480 else's hands. In fact, the a lot of government offices 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.439 and clean the military are now looking at systems that 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:31.079 would not allow you to to pull information and put 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.959 it onto another form of media. So you wouldn't be 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.600 able to use it like a USB drive or UM 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.840 burn it to a disk because the system and self 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.520 would prevent you from doing so. Yeah, I would like 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.240 to point out that I misspoke. What's private first class 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.160 is not a non commissioned officer, but he's a private 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.200 first class. Okay, Yeah, I'm glad so all of you 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.240 to me. I knew I had misspoken as soon as 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.960 I said it, And I am just gonna say I 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.680 am mostly ignorant of the military. Um. Other than the 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.880 fact it, I am very thankful for them. So yeah, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.000 That's why I didn't jump on there and correct you, 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.719 because I didn't know any better. Anyway, one of those 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:09.200 things that I knew as soon as it was itching 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.560 in the back of my head said something that, so, alright, 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.640 so we've got this the site where it's hit the 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.000 news because all these different all these messages that really 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.199 were not meant for public consumption are now out there 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:26.640 and available. Now, that doesn't mean necessarily that we automatically 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.520 go through and read them all. A lot of newspapers 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:34.480 did because you know, this was right for picking through 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.120 this and seeing what was actually interesting on there. So 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.120 a lot of the a lot of the fallout from 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:45.719 the whole wiki leaks situation really comes from secondary uh sources, right, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.600 like like other newspapers and things of that nature. Well, 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.480 that's true, um see, some of the information was also 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.560 leaked directly to some of the publications as well, right, Um, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.000 I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the New York Times 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.040 was one of those, uh they got their own copy 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.960 of these documents. And I feel compelled to point out 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.439 too that a lot of these cables, especially diplomatic cables, um, 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:15.240 they're released anyway, but they're usually released later uh, frequently 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.839 when the people involved are dead, so that we can't 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.520 hear about how flabby they are. We can't hear their 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:26.640 reactions exactly exactly. Uh yeah, they Sorry, that was another 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.080 misstatement on my part. I'm doing great today, man, because 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.560 considering I'm the one who hasn't had any sleep for 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:37.360 so long, it's no never mind anyway. Um that's what 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.319 I get for changing the day that we podcast. Um 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.880 so yeah it um. You know, these these documents are 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.679 usually published years after the fact, and in this case, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.360 these these documents are much much more uh fresh than 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.520 those I believe the number I read was the mid seventies. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.520 Is now where they're being published, where they're up to 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.599 in the East, documents typically like the official publication, and 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.360 these documents, and some of them are probably not are 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.679 held back even longer, depending on how sensitive they are. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.240 And that's that's a good point because some people maybe 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.240 under the impression that the documents that are on Wiki 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.720 leaks are um are really recent, like within the last 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:19.199 couple of years, and some of them are. I mean 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.200 there there are there are documents specifically about the war 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.360 in Afghanistan and and uh and the war in Iraq 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.040 and things of that nature. Um, So there are some 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:34.320 that are more recent. It's just this most uh, the 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.480 fresh batch that hit Wiki leaks is not among them. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:43.160 They those are older documents. But before we get too 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.840 embroiled in the whole government thing, Wiki leaks doesn't just 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.520 publish uh messages about governments. They'll also doing about companies, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:55.640 about individuals. Really, it's anything that kind of I guess 0:12:55.640 --> 0:13:00.720 that that wiki leaks feels is being um just ingenuous, 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.080 or is trying to hide something, something that that the 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.320 site feels people should know. They'll they'll go ahead and 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.560 publish it now, maybe not to the extent that everyone 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:15.400 at wiki leaks wishes the site did. And and that 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.280 tortured sentence was really a way of saying there are 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.960 some people who had worked for wiki leaks in the 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:27.400 past who felt that perhaps Assange was taking a very uh, 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.600 a very specific approach that they didn't they didn't agree with. 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.120 And the main thing, the main argument was that Assange's 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.760 m O was to wait for these really big leaks 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:43.680 like the two plus thousand UH cables to come out 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.000 and then would release them in a in a big batch, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:47.880 and it gets a lot of a lot of publicity 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.040 and a lot of attention towards Wiki leaks. Uh. The 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:56.120 argument that the people who left WikiLeaks say is more 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.160 important is you should be publishing the smaller stuff too. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.480 It doesn't attract the attention of the big leaks like 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.520 the cables, but it's equally as important to people to 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:13.520 know that information. Right, So they're they're essentially accusing Assange 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.840 of ignoring the smaller stories in favor of the big 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.240 stories and uh. And so some of them left, and 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.560 a few of them are planning on launching essentially a 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.160 competitive site to wiki leaks that would pick up where 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.280 Wiki leaks leaves off. Chief among them would be Daniel 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.760 dom scheit Berrick, one of the one of the fellows 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.840 who was working on wiki leaks in Germany. He left 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.280 UM and is publishing a novel, a book, not a novel, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:51.880 but a nonfiction book in January of about working for 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.960 wiki leaks and sort of the kind of inside baseball 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.400 on what it was like working for the website and 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:01.920 what led to his decision to leave UM. It sounds 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.280 to me like he still believes in the the official 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.120 philosophy of wiki leaks. He just doesn't feel that the 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:12.240 site is carrying that that philosophy to fruition. He thinks 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.400 that they've they've sort of lost their way. At least 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.800 that's that's what I glean from the interviews I've read. 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.560 I have not spoken with him personally, so I can't 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.080 really be certain. But at any rate, so you've got 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:29.080 this website that's publishing a hundreds of thousands of documents 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.880 that we're not necessarily meant to be read by you 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:36.040 and I, and uh, that's drawn some attention, to say 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.040 the least, um, and it's drawn a lot of criticism 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.080 as well. And some of those criticisms range from, uh, 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.720 this is irresponsible, and it puts the United States in 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:51.120 danger and other nations at risk as well by revealing 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.280 information that was not meant for everyone to to access. 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.160 And because it's on the Internet, it's not like it's 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.920 just going to one audience, it's going out to the world. Now, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.280 there are some countries that have said that they aren't 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.760 going to pay any attention to the documents that are 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.880 on wiki leaks, so they're not going to um give 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.320 it the satisfaction I guess, like like China has specifically 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.800 said that it's going to block wiki leaks, which not surprise. 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.960 Really it's China, but it's gonna block Wiki leaks and 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.560 they're not going to pay attention to the messages that 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.520 are listed in there because they think it would be 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:30.000 more harmful than good. Now, whether that that claim is 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.680 true or not, I can't say, you know, whether they'll 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.680 they'll truly not look at the messages. Who who's to 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.040 say besides China, and you know they're claiming one way. 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:45.880 So but anyway, there are other people, specifically politicians in 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:51.320 the United States, who have said that the behavior of 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.560 Assange and the Wiki leakus psych site in general has 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.359 been very irresponsible, to the point of possibly being treasonous 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:05.160 or out of espionage. Uh. These are serious charges and um, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.800 depending on your point of view, they could be punishable 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.360 to pretty big extremes. In fact, I think a few 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:16.639 politicians of more or less called for Assangea's head, you know, 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.960 I think they would. I think in their mind they 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:20.800 would put it on a pike and set it out 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.879 in front of Hudson Bay and say this is a 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:28.080 warning to all of you. Um, yeah he has Yeah, 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.760 it could end up in a with a lengthy prison term. Um. Anyway, 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.040 at least according to to uh, the information I read 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.679 from a Flaherty from the ap right. But let but 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.160 the charges that he's brought up on are not related 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.720 directly to wiki leaks, and and some have argued that 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.240 you can't. Really what would you charge him with for 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:55.479 WikiLeaks because according to the site's philosophy, again, they do 0:17:55.560 --> 0:18:01.879 not solicit information. They offer a dumping ground for information, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.159 but they don't go out and ask for it. So 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.880 in other words, he's just saying, hey, I'm just here, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.080 and I say it said that I will accept any 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.359 information that comes through my door, but I'm not going 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.000 to go out there door to door and say, hey, 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.560 do you have any secrets for me to tell? So 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.199 really that that would suggest that the responsibility lies on 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.080 the people leaking the information, not on wiki leaks for 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.919 accepting it, right, I mean, what do you charge someone 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.840 for hearing a secret? It's not like it's their fault necessarily. 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:32.480 I mean, they may say that I've got I've got 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.640 ears and I'm willing to listen, but that's different from 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:40.119 going out and seeking out secret information. So really that 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.600 there are those who support wiki leaks who argue, well, 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.439 the fault lies with people who are leaking this info, 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.080 so you can't really charge Wiki leaks with anything. They're 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.320 also those who say, well, even if Assange is guilty 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.000 of the allegations against him, which again don't have anything 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.720 to do with wiki leaks, those are they're actually it's 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.640 a it's a charge of rape, a charge of sexual molestation, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.199 and a couple of other related charges. And these are 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:09.080 very serious charges. They don't necessarily mean that Wiki leaks 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.840 is going to go away if Assange is convicted of 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:17.719 these charges. So, you know, even I think there's some 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.640 people who support WikiLeaks who go to a true extreme 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:25.080 and say that the charges against Assange are manufactured and 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.480 that's some sort of conspiracy and it's all designed to 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.679 try and make Wiki leaks go away, right, Yeah, well 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:33.760 it kind of makes me think of al Capone in 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.160 a way about you you go after whatever you can 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.440 get on him. Yeah. Yeah, So there there are those 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:40.560 people who who think that that's what it is, that's 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:45.160 the United States government pressuring Sweden to pursue these claims 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.480 against Assange in order to get him out of the way. 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.560 I I'm a little skeptical of that. First of all, 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:57.680 I think that that's placing way too much um way 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:02.000 too much skepticism against the people laiming these these allegations, right, 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.320 it's it's dismissing them entirely, and I think that's irresponsible. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:08.600 What needs to happen is there needs to be a 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:14.320 true investigation that's objective to see if the allegations are 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.400 if they hold any weight, because because otherwise you're you're 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.480 saying that these the women who are claiming these allegations 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.640 against Assange, that they don't matter. And I think that's 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.040 just as horrible as some of the other allegations being 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:33.119 thrown out by Wiki leaks supporters. Now, uh, that doesn't 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.480 necessarily mean that the allegations are true, of course, and 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.639 also it doesn't mean that if Assange were convicted that 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.879 Wiki leaks would disappear. There are other people to carry 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.240 on Wiki Leaks. If Assange left, you would just have 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.359 a different spokesperson. Yes, And as a matter of fact, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.960 apparently there is some kind of and this is going 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.040 to be sort of weird, because it is possible that 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.879 before this podcast goes out, um, some this this actually 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.760 will be triggered. Um. But they he and don't take 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.280 me literally here. Apparently he has referred to a thermonuclear 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.440 device which is not actually a thermonuclear device, but basically 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:13.000 it's a mega something. There's a giant file somewhere in 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.680 the Wiki Leaks system that if something happens to the website, 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:18.240 it is supposed to be triggered. Now it's sort of 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.960 unclear based on the research that I've done, whether it's 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.840 a giant blast of leaks that will be published somewhere 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.760 in the world that will basically dump all the information 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.320 at one time, or if it's some kind of code 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.200 um either I guess to prevent another attack or attack 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.840 the attacker or something. Um. It's sort of unclear what 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.480 exactly what it is. But Assanja said that you know, 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.400 if you come after us and and completely take down 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.440 the site, you know there is something waiting for you. 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:54.080 There will be consequences. That's not doing a many favors either, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.600 not helping him in the eyes of his critics. Um. Now, So, 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.119 so we've gotten to the point where we think that 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.199 Wiki Leaks would stay around even if Assange goes away. Well, 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.320 there are enough supporters to third party supporters who are 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.360 willing to mirror the site where I don't think that's 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.480 going to be an issue. Right now, some things that 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:18.080 are issues. Are the site uh subsists on donations? Yes, well, 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:22.119 a lot of the the avenues for donation are getting 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:27.160 cut off. There have been reports that MasterCard, Visa, and PayPal, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:32.040 among other financial services, have ceased payments to Wiki leaks. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:36.520 That's correct, I've heard that. So now you're talking about, 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.479 all right, well, this can't have anything to do with 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:44.280 the the allegations against a Sane because why would you 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:48.600 why would you connect the company with the man, Right, 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:52.240 It's two different entities, right of course, in the United 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.720 States here, if it's a company, it is treated like 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.119 a person. Right. But and then that's the same thing 0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:58.880 though you say, all right, well, the company is one person, 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:01.320 Assange is another person, and you can't you know, you 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.640 can't charge both for the crimes of one. But when 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:05.680 you when you stick yourself out there too and make 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:09.080 yourself the face of the company, you start running that 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.479 risk that you will be identified that closely. So if 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.160 if you do assume that the charges against a Sane 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.639 truly have nothing to do with his role in Wiki leaks, 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.000 and let's go ahead, we'll just say that that's well, 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:27.080 we'll assume that's true for the sake of this argument um, 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.280 it's harder to say, all right, well, what's the justification 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:35.320 for cutting off the avenues for financial support to wiki leaks. 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.480 That probably has more to do with the political aspect, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:41.960 in the financial aspect of the site than anything else. 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.000 So if Assange was gone, I would imagine that those 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.639 block blockades would still be up and uh and at 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:52.960 least PayPal, the president of PayPal, said in an interview 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:57.560 the reason why PayPal shut off payments to wiki leaks 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:01.080