1 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up a weekly markets podcast. 2 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and I'm Aldana Higher Across Acid reporter at Bloomberg. 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: And this week on the show, well, we didn't see 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: this coming, but turned out to be the year when 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: the crazy things we normally talked about at the end 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: of the podcast turned into the things we talked about 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: during the serious part of the show too, with crypto 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: executives being called before Congress, tokens that started out as 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: jokes skyrocketing to tens of billions of dollars in value, 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: n f t s of board apes selling for millions 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: of dollars, coin based, going public, you name it. It 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: was hard to avoid the crypto headlines this year and 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: wonder what it all means going forward. We're gonna talk 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: to the woman leading Bloomberg's coverage of it all about 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: what a wild year was and what's a lookout for 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: in two And speaking of crazy and wild things, are 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: operators are standing by to take your crazy things. So 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: if anybody saw something that they wanted to flag or 20 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: wanted to let us know about, you can call us 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: on the crazy things hotline. That's six four six three 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: two four three four zero. Leave us a voicemail. Maybe 23 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: we'll play it on the show. And as always, you 24 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: can always tweet at us as well. But first I 25 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: want to bring in Stacy Marie Ishmael. She's the managing 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: editor for Crypto at Bloomberg. Welcome to the show. Hi, 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me. Stacy also my neighbor 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: in the office. Although I'm getting kicked out of that 29 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: row about kicked out. They're moving me closer to the 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: men's room, which for a guy my agees is a 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: good it's an upgrade, So I'll take let's Stacy, I 32 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: just want you to tell the listeners a little bit 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: about yourself. I mean, how does such a nice, smart, 34 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: level headed woman, what career path takes her into this 35 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: crazy world of crypto that you found yourself in. Give 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: us sort of your your your resume in a nutshell here. Sure. So, 37 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: I'm a person who has bounced between technology and media 38 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: for a long long time, and my very first job 39 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: in journalism as a kind of a baby reporter, was 40 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: covering structured finance credit to false swaps and derivatives from 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: two thousands sticks to two thousand nine, which you know, 42 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: it was an interesting time for a baby reporter. While yeah, 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: it was, you know, it's what you do. Um you 44 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: sort of get you get thrown into the deep end. 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: You start writing these stories about market in disease of 46 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: credit to false swaps that seven people read, and then 47 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: for lots of different subprime and housing related reasons six 48 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: months later that everybody in the whole country in the 49 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: world are reading. So, you know, I come at finance 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: from this perspective of what goes up must go down, 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: But sometimes it goes sideways, and you don't always understand 52 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: what the structural transmission mechanisms might be. Something that looks 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: totally un correlated actually turns out to be a hundred 54 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: percent correlated with something else. And that's a perspective that 55 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: I found really helpful in in crypto, where you have 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: to both take it I suppose seriously but not literally 57 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: when when you're thinking about these things. And I also 58 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: have you know, a technology background of workers technology companies. 59 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: I have more kind of technical skills. I know, I 60 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: know enough programming and codes be dangerous, which has also 61 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: come in really handy from the perspective of evaluating on 62 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: understanding some of the white papers in crypto about like 63 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: why you should trust this OME token, or just on 64 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: understanding how disruptive some of the conversations that we're having 65 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: about the underpinnings of blockchain can be for the rest 66 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: of the sector. So just to start out really broadly speaking, 67 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: I know you wrote an article for Bloomberg recently. It's 68 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: titled Wall Street Finally Learned it Can't ignore Crypto and 69 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: n f T S. So I was hoping we could 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: start out with you just sort of talking about the 71 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: year in crypto. It seems like the big theme was 72 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: street acceptance. We heard that over and udging or otherwise, 73 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: right exactly, So maybe can you later lay that out 74 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: for us and what some of those factors were and 75 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: why that is important for the crypto community. Three three 76 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: good questions at once. Okay, So I'll start with what 77 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: what happened? Right, which is if you think back to 78 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, millions of years ago in January one, when 79 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: so much of the conversation about crypto was tied up 80 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: in scams, fraud and ransomware, right, if you were if 81 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: you were talking about bitcoin, you were talking about how 82 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: somebody lost all of this and you know, I think 83 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: that that really had set been the tone and set 84 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: the tone for all but the truest of believers for 85 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: quite a long time. I think there are a lot 86 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: of media companies, Bloomberg included, that had much more sophisticated 87 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: coverage of crypto than just it's all scams all the time. 88 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: But you know, if you were to ask a person 89 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: on the street, odds are that if they had heard 90 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: about it, they either thought it was totally sketchy or 91 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: they also were like Team by Gold, you know, high, 92 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: high guns and in basement kind of kind of stereotype. 93 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: And then a few things happened all at once, right, 94 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: which is that you had the beginnings of fairly significant 95 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: price appreciation because coin base went public and coin based 96 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: being this major major exchange and hopefully helped well, I 97 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: think the people who were backing it, who helped hope 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: that it would help institutionalize the idea of this is 99 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: something that you can take seriously. Look it's it's serious 100 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: enough for this to be part of the public markets. 101 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: And that was in kind of March April, those conversations 102 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: were happening, and you you started to see that first 103 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: run up in prices. I would also say that right 104 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: around that time, when some of the buzz around meme 105 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: stocks was kind of hitting its peak, there was a 106 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of overlap between people who were spending a lot 107 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: of time on Reddit forums talking about its etcetera. With 108 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: people who are spending a lot of time in Discord 109 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: talking about different crypto tokens. And I have what I 110 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: sometimes call my unified unified theory of crypto, which is 111 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: that it's roughly the same groups of folks who are 112 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: interested in sports, betting, poker, video games, n f t S, 113 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: Wall Street Bets, Discord, Reddit, Twitch, and YouTube. And not 114 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: everybody is part of every single one of those communities, 115 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: but chances are that if you belong to any one 116 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: of them, you are adjacent to people who belong to 117 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: the others. And I think there was a lot of 118 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: interesting overlap and conversation between some of the folks who 119 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: were like die hard on meme stocks and you know, 120 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: trading those in robin hood with people who were like, hey, 121 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: have you heard about the theory um maybe you should, 122 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: maybe you should add that to your portfolio. And this 123 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: is kind of what I mean about when you you 124 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: have to say crypto seriously but not always literally, which 125 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: is like you you wouldn't look back and say, Okay, 126 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: Wall Street now has to take crypto seriously because of 127 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: Wall Street bets. But you could also say one of 128 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: the reasons that Wall Street is taking crypto seriously is 129 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: because another thing that was driving material performance and markets 130 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: from the equities perspective, there were similar trends driving material 131 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: performance in crypto, you know, a totally different asset class. 132 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: And then, of course, I think one of the biggest 133 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: things that happened, and they happened within not too far 134 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: apart from each other, is al Salvador was like we're 135 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: all in on bitcoin, and China was like bitcoing completely legal, 136 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: and you had these totally different approaches to the asset 137 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: class that had you know, some interesting ripple effects, right, 138 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: which is one folks were like, well, if this is 139 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: serious enough for an entire country to ban it, and 140 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: it's also seriously enough for an entire country to go 141 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: all in on on bitcoin, perhaps we should pay more attention. Right. So, 142 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: whether you were pro or con the fact that this 143 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: asset class had is into sovereign attention as it were, 144 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: was I think another marker for folks that Okay, they 145 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: can't just be like la la la, I don't know 146 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: what's going on here. They really need to engage with 147 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: it in a serious way. So if your portfolio included 148 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: emerging market exposure of any kind, or your portfolio included TESLA, 149 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: or it included micro strategy, you know you were suddenly 150 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: having to be way more up to speed on Bitcoin 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: than you were maybe comfortable with or even aware of. Right, 152 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: so all of all of this is happening in a 153 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: very short amount of time. You know, we we kind 154 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: of go from like, ah, this is all bad and 155 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: ran somewhere to like WHOA, I need to I need 156 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: to understand this better. And then you have this incredible 157 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: run up in prices. Well, you know, at the time 158 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: of recording, like crypto is obviously nowhere near the old 159 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: time highs that we hit in November. You know, we're 160 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: about thirties down from the peak depending on the day, 161 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: but we are still so far above you know, the 162 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: when you could buy a bitcoin for like eight hundred 163 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: dollars that it's almost a different universe. And I think 164 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: that when you when you consider as Mike question in 165 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: the intro, you have n f T selling for millions 166 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: of dollars, you have single tokens experiencing three thousand percent 167 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: appreciation in a given window. You have bitcoin trading above 168 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: sixty dollars. If you are a serious person in financial markets, 169 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: there is too much money on the table, whatever your 170 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: personal opinion of the asset class might be, to ignore that. Yeah, absolutely, 171 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: I love your unifying theory there, you know, I pictured 172 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: is like a big ven diagram with all these little bubbles, 173 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: but all of them sort of dip into the crypto space. Uh, 174 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: to some I know personally, I know a lot of 175 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: I have some friends who were online poker players who 176 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, when there was a crackdown on that all 177 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: of a sudden, the only way you could really bet 178 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: on online poker was was with crypto, you know. So 179 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting the different sort of you avenues that 180 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: you can get sucked into it. Um. But Stacy, I 181 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: wanted to talk sort of from the journalistic perspective because 182 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: along with the growth of crypto, there's been this whole 183 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: new growth of media companies covering crypto, and you know, 184 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: whatever that happens there, You know, these publications have some 185 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: sort of vested interest in the space, and to me, 186 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: there's a risk of sort of coverage that that borders 187 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: on cheerleading, you know, and I don't want to use 188 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: cheerleading in a derogatory term, Bildona. I'm the father of 189 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: two cheerleaders. I actually I could be pressed into service. 190 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: Is like a backspot in a stunt group if needed. 191 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: So I I all all the respect it is for 192 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: if we if you ever want to do a stunt 193 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: at work, let you know, you know all the respect 194 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 1: in the world for cheerleading. Um. But you know from 195 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: that notion of and I think I know the answer. 196 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: I think Plato knows the answer. But to listeners out 197 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: there who are used to reading a different type of 198 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: coverage of crypto, how how do you approach Bloomberg's coverage? 199 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: And how how my it be different than say and 200 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: I'm la going to name any names, but a website 201 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: that obviously has has direct skin in the game of 202 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: the crypto world more so than we would. Yeah, I 203 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: mean this is this is the perpetual question of trade magazines, 204 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: right in the sense of and you know, for a 205 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: place where if you're direct owner is incentivized because they 206 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: participate in the crypto ecosystem to have all prices go 207 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: up that can present interesting editorial challenges and compromises. But 208 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: it's I think, as a as a universe of media, 209 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: it's not something we're totally unfamiliar with. What I would 210 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: say that I'm trying to bring to Bloomberg is, in 211 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: terms of crypto coverage, is a phrase that I use 212 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: a lot, which is rigorous skepticism, And that is to say, 213 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: I'm not actually interested in being cynical or nihilistic about 214 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: the asset class. I'm not interested in starting from a 215 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,599 Speaker 1: place of well, all of this is, you know, potentially fraudulent, 216 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: Like I don't think that's journalistically useful, and I also 217 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: think it's untrue, right, Like is there an above average 218 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: number of sketchiness happening at all times? Yeah? Sure, but 219 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: it's it's not that's not the entirety of the universe. Similarly, 220 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: I'm not like a starry eyed believer, who will, you know, 221 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: take for granted any claim that a aggressively well funded 222 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: crypto ceo makes about this is the pathway to wealth redistribution. Like, sure, how, 223 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: give me, give me evidence, give me examples, you know, like, 224 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: show me materially what this means in practice. Um, And 225 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: I think that's that's where I would like all of 226 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,479 Speaker 1: our coverage to live right that we are appropriately curious 227 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: and we're appropriately questioning, but we are sufficiently open minded 228 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: that we don't miss interesting stories. So, speaking of some 229 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: of the conversations we've been having internally, know we're we've 230 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: been working on a lot of stories that are you know, 231 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: looking at the year and review for crypto and for 232 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: bitcoin and for all these other offshoots, and so I'm wondering, 233 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, I've been asking a lot of people like 234 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: what will it take to continue to see the market mature? 235 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you're thinking about that. I think 236 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: any markets in which you have individual tokens or groups 237 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: of tokens that can go up or down by two 238 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: percent in one day is not mature yet. And I 239 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: think that when you're in a situation in which individual 240 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: CEOs tweeting about their puppies can cause entirely new classes 241 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: of things to spring into existence, I would also say 242 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: it's not you know, fully baked from from that kind 243 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: of perspective, and so I look at a couple of 244 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: different things. If you think about, you know, some traditional markers, 245 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: like what's the depth of the liquidity, right, what's the 246 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: what's the sort of proportion of pure momentum driven speculation 247 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: to fundamental analysis and investment. Like how many people are huddling, 248 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: as it were, not merely because they think that if 249 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: they outlast everybody else there will be gains for them, 250 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: but because they're making a more fundamental bet on something else. 251 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: I look at the frankly, the quality of the executive 252 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: bench of a lot of these crypto companies, Like, you know, 253 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: what is what is the experience of the folks involved, 254 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: What are their backgrounds? How do they spend a lot 255 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: of time on Twitter raging against the machine or are 256 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: they doing work? You know, it's it's things that you 257 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: tend to from a more traditional perspective. You see a 258 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: lot of activity happening in crypto that makes you think 259 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: that there is a degree of un seriousness which can 260 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: be funny but is also troubling. Um I'll give an example. 261 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: You know, just this year, we have seen a tremendous 262 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: number of outages and downtime across you know, even some 263 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: of the biggest players in the space. And it'll be 264 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: while you can't log in for x amount of time, 265 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: or you can't withdraw or you can't liquidate this particular position, 266 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: or you've been locked out of your accounts for X 267 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: number of days. And if you are a person who's 268 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: used to sort of technology, and perhaps some of our 269 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: listeners might remember when if you use Twitter, you would 270 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: see the fail whale, like every five minutes, it's like, 271 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: oh Twitter is down again, and it's like that that 272 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: can be funny for a while, but then you start 273 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: to have people who are like, hang on a minute, 274 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: this is my primary bank account, or I have positions 275 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: that at risk of being liquidated here because the market 276 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: is moving against me and I can't log into my 277 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: account to adjust an adapt accordingly, you start to move 278 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: into one actually needing customer service, like actually needing to 279 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: be able to service and meet the needs of your 280 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: customers who might be facing some kind of difficulty and 281 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: to way better reliability and uptime. Right, It's like you 282 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: get past the point of trillions of dollars where joking 283 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: around on your social platforms while people are locked out 284 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: of their accounts goes from like funny, ha ha, we're 285 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: all in this together to just unprofessional and inappropriate. You know, Stacey, 286 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: I want to sort of unpack something you said earlier 287 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: on there in that answer, and um, it really it's 288 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: to an interesting quote I saw recently, and I wish 289 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: I had written down who who tweeted it or said it, 290 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: but it was it was basically the notion that defied 291 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: the centralized finance is a solution in search of a problem. 292 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: And you know, people kind of been saying that about 293 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: crypto all all along. But I do think you know, 294 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: it's it's ah, you know something that is a criticism 295 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: of DeFi. That's that's worth talking about, you know, you know, 296 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: the real believers and DeFi will tell you, well, it's 297 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's opens the doors to the unbanked and 298 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: to the populations that have been sort of neglected by 299 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: traditional financial services. Is there validity to that? I mean, 300 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: is that sort of just the nice bow you put 301 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: on top of a real gambler's market to make it 302 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: look like, you know, it's a virtue signal? It a 303 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: little bit, But how do you think of that, you know, 304 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: the whole world of the centralized finance and you know 305 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: the ability to to solve real world problems that people 306 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 1: might be having with the traditional financial system. Sure, if 307 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: I put my curious and also skeptical hat on for 308 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: a second. I think back to a couple of things. 309 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: I think back to when people were like why do 310 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: we need email? Fox machines are great and then or 311 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: or like this internet thing will never take off, or 312 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: video chatting never gonna need that we were in person constantly, right, 313 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: Like there's always a moment when you are standing at 314 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: a technological fork in the road where whatever you are 315 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: doing right now seems still fine, adequate, appropriate, well suited 316 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: to whatever. The problem is that anything that isn't that 317 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: seems ridiculous, right, And I think there are certain there 318 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: is a risk in in some of the discussion of 319 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: Defy that is that idea of what we have now 320 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: is fine, Like what you're talking about is overly complicated 321 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: and doesn't make any sense and it's never gonna work, right, 322 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: And now we say this while recording on zoom in 323 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: in in full video for something organized by email that 324 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: we will publish through the Internet. So I think there's 325 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: some of that, But I also think that there are 326 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: insufficiently compelling arguments for some of the valuations and some 327 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: of the claims that we see in Defy right, Because 328 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: I think it's like you could argue that the the 329 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: mare fact of being able to offer twelve a p 330 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: y in a lowish interest rates environment is like useful 331 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: for people who are looking for yield. Right, That's that's 332 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: certainly a problem that's being solved through some applications of Defy. 333 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: You could argue that the idea of smart contract is 334 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: kind of genius actually, that you know, you have this 335 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: notion of within an agreed set of parameters and variables, 336 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: you can automate things right now that are otherwise very manual. 337 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: Any lawyers listening to this like hatesmart contracts because it's 338 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: so potentially ultimating them out of jobs. But you know, 339 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: there's like lots of interesting stuff out there, But there isn't, 340 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, to use a phrase from our colleague Olga Crief, 341 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: there isn't a killer app for defy yet other than like, 342 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: here's like yield farming with super attractive interest rates, or 343 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: here's a handful of particularly technical or you know, niche 344 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: uses that some people find really helpful, but for the 345 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: vast majority, their eyes glaze over when you try to 346 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: explain to them how it works. I'm glad you brought 347 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: up the fax machine. I'm so old all Donna. When 348 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: I was a baby reporter, the newspaper had a fax machine, 349 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: but like the police department didn't, and the funeral homes didn't, 350 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: So you know, I'd have to to the police station 351 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: take notes on all the police reports. You know, the 352 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: funeral home would call and and read me in about 353 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: thirty seconds, the super long o bit that that I'd 354 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: have to take down, and you know, so uh to me, 355 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: the facts machine was revolutionary when when those places starting 356 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: to get I can see where Paul Krugman was coming 357 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: from when he said, you know, the internet is is 358 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: just going to be as influential as the facts machine. 359 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: I've got it to be pretty influential. I'm imagining baby 360 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: Mike Reagan reporter. I'll bring by the fax machine here, 361 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: browner hair, you know, otherwise not the same Stacy. I 362 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: also wanted to ask you, speaking of all things defy, 363 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: there's also this trend of regular, you know, old school 364 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: traditional financial products, things like e t f s maybe 365 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: also moving into the DeFi space, or some version of 366 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: it moving into the DeFi space. I'm wondering if you're 367 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: surprised by sort of that whole world recreating itself in 368 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: the crypto world not at all. Um, you know, sort 369 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: me say this because as we said, we're basically deskmates 370 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: where I'm like everything old is new and crypto, which 371 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: is you know, the idea that in whatever you have 372 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: a starry eyed industry that's like, we're going to change 373 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: the world, but first we're going to rebuild everything we've 374 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: left behind. We're gonna make them better, but we're going 375 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: to start from recreating this infrastructure. It happens all the 376 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: time because inventing things that are genuinely new and have 377 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: never existed before is you know, super hard actually, um, 378 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: And what I what I also think is that there 379 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: are parts of crypto, there are parts of defy that 380 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: let you do certain things more efficiently potentially or you know, 381 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: with less friction, even if the underlyings are very similar. Right. 382 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: So you know, we've we've kind of looked at different 383 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: things around what would it mean if remittances didn't take 384 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: days on average but instead took hours and you could 385 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: initiate them from WhatsApp Right, You're still doing the same thing. 386 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: You're moving money across borders, but the cost of moving 387 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: that money and the convenience of moving that money is 388 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: like transformational in in its distinctiveness. And so I don't 389 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: think that the that recreating old things in a in 390 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: a with a new code of paint is necessarily a 391 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: bad thing. And it's often helpful to help skeptics migrate 392 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: along with you because somebody's like, oh, I understand E 393 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: T S, or I understand tokenization, or understand fractional shares, 394 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: and so I have now a useful mental model to 395 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: approach something that I couldn't make head or tail of before. 396 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: As they said, I wanted to get into the n 397 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: f T market a little bit. You know, it's fascinating 398 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 1: me because NFC has really started out as sort of this, 399 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, it seemed to come from the artistic community 400 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: more than anything else, and kind of the the outsider community. 401 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: And there's obviously, you know, uh, sort of an appeal 402 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: and and uh a natural nous, a sort of I 403 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: don't know if it's it's something to feel good about. 404 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: I feel like, but then, you know, every day I 405 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: come in now and there's some corporation or some celebrity 406 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: in my inbox talking about a new corporate sponsored n 407 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: f T or some celebrity getting involved in it. It 408 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: seems to me to kind of cancel out that sort 409 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: of grassroots artist end of it. You know, is there 410 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: attention there? Do you think? And you know, I know 411 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: it's impossible to say which way it goes, but does 412 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: the sort of corporate you know, intrusion on the n 413 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: f T market kind of kind of ruin you know, 414 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: the fun on the arts side of it. This is 415 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: the absolute punk rocker in you. It's like down down 416 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: with the man him, absolutely, and so I mean it. 417 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: I'll say a couple of things about that. One is, 418 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: when people think about n f T s right now, 419 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: they often will have a visual in mind, because you know, 420 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: the thing's selling for dollars seventy million dollars. Are visual 421 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: representations that are akin to or in some cases are art, right, 422 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: So I don't necessarily consider an ape smoking a cigarette 423 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: high art, but it is it is highly visual. And 424 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: then there are some pretty cool and interesting experiments you know, 425 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: from like folks like everybody, from people to banks see 426 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: that are much more in that like fine art with 427 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: a digital perspective, um kind of persuasion. But but the 428 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: visual is not what defines the n f T right, 429 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: What defines the idea of the of an n f 430 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: T is this idea of uniqueness and that you can 431 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: only have one, not because the thing itself is not replicable, 432 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: but because there is a one to one ownership claim. 433 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: And so I do think that right now, art is 434 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: where n f t s have like captured the popular imagination, 435 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: and there is some fun outsider energy just as much 436 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: as there is you know, massive corporations like a MC 437 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: and Marvel and others being like, ha ha, we can 438 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: make more money on this. Here's a spider Man n 439 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: f T for you. But I also think n f 440 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: T s are like massively under imagined in their ultimate 441 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: potential right because it's like you could represent anything with 442 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: an n f T. It's it's it's a container for ownership. 443 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: And I think when you know, it could be drawings, 444 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: it could be music. I um, I was reading a 445 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: story that an unreleased Whitney Houston track was just sold 446 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: as an n f T. Right, It's like it is 447 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: a container that represents authenticity. And I am looking forward 448 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: to folks putting more interesting things in those containers over time. 449 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: And I'm also looking for there to be kind of 450 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: a shakeout. I mean, you know, my you and me 451 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: are probably old enough to remember when like A O 452 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: L was a thing. There you go and in addition 453 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: to all of the unused cd s with an hour 454 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: of A L access that so many of us connected 455 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: over the years, brands would like claim their A O 456 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: L identity right and they were like, we have to 457 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: set up shop on a O L. And then it 458 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: was like, well, we have to have our own dot 459 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: com presence, and it's like we have to have our 460 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: own Facebook page, we have to have our own Twitter handle. 461 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: There's always a digital brand rush to make sure that 462 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: one they have some control over their intellectual property on 463 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: whatever the hot new thing is, and to that if 464 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: there's any money to be made or any audience engagement 465 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: to be generated, that they don't miss out on it. 466 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: And then there's a shakeout right where the brands who 467 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: understand how to like interact on that platform survive and 468 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: the ones who don't don't. So I I it's a 469 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: great point about sort of the potential of of what 470 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: an n f T can be. I always bring up 471 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: the notion of the z racing, you know, based digital 472 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: thoroughbred horses that can race each other and can breed 473 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: and you know, sort of recreating the whole horse racing 474 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: industry in n f T. Whenever I talk about it 475 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: to like, I won't say it used the word degenerate, 476 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: but a gambling enthusiast friend of mine there. You know, 477 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: they may roll their eyes at the notion of n 478 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: f T S, but then you mentioned that and then explained, right, 479 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: but horse racing Okay, now this is this changes everything. Yeah. 480 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to my in 481 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: laws who just last year got rid of their A 482 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 1: O L dial up internet. Wow. I know, I know 483 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: they've been paying all these years. I think it was 484 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: like a monthly fee. So and there are the listeners 485 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: of the podcast, So shout out to the in laws. Hello, 486 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: shout out. But just to wrap everything up, obviously a 487 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: big through line here is that there were all these 488 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: new people who entered the market for whatever reason, as 489 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: you laid out at the start out of the show, 490 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: and I know we are constantly thinking about, just as 491 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: we are with the stock market, thinking about whether or 492 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: not these new investors are going to stick around. I 493 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: know for a while the idea was that as economies 494 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: everywhere start to reopen, that people will become less interested. 495 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: There won't be as much stimulus, etcetera, etcetera. So do 496 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: you think that this huge new wave of investors is 497 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: here to stay. I think every generation looks for a 498 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: place to put their money. And I also think that 499 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: it's never been true that investing is a solitary act, 500 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: because I've certainly read a lot of coverage that is like, oh, 501 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're just saying that it's about community, but 502 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: it's actually just about money. Like yeah, but you know, 503 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: fund managers in the mad Men era, we're all trying 504 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: to impress their smoking buddies with like whatever, whatever their 505 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: picks were. That there's always been an element of social 506 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: approval to portfolio management, even when new approval is the 507 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: rejection of the status clue, right, you want to be 508 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: the contrarian, you want to be the bear in a 509 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: bowl market. And so I think when people underestimate the 510 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: social and community elements of crypto, they miss a very 511 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: large part of the story because unlike you know, the 512 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: previous times when your social universe will like your fellow 513 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: men at the country club, because let's be clear, there 514 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: are mostly no woman there. Now it's the five thousand 515 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: people in the discord with you, right, and they can 516 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: be all over the world, and they're going to come 517 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: at things from different places, and that is you know, 518 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: discord is it's a big chat for him. It's like slack, 519 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: it's like a well, a messenger, but it's a place 520 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: where people are communicating, and it's it's built into how 521 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: we live our lives. And I don't think that communication 522 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: is going to go away. And I don't think the 523 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: expectation of I'm going to ask perfect strangers what gotchi? 524 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: They're gonna buy U? I don't think that's going away either. 525 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: And so even if we see a major shakeout, I mean, 526 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: like we are down again from the high um, all 527 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: of this money still needs places to go and folks. 528 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, sure some folks will reallocate them. They be 529 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: like I can't handle this volatility and buy some bonds. 530 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: But I don't think it's going to disappear just because 531 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: some people have moved on to the next thing. Like 532 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: there are signs, you know, even with what I said 533 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 1: about the relative immaturity of the asset class, there are 534 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: absolutely signs of institutionalization. Right, you mentioned e t s. Right, 535 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: there are so many more ways to get exposure to 536 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: something that is still offering really impressive returns and yields 537 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: compared with you know, lots of other things out there. 538 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: All it's basically before we get to our crazy things 539 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: of the year, not just the week. I think we've 540 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: got to do over the year this time, just briefly. 541 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: What so, where do you see the whole plot line 542 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: going for crypto? And you know, both the regulatory front 543 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: and just the the space itself, you know what, I know, 544 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: it's impossible. It's such a fast moving space to try 545 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: to predict what I feel like if I could answer 546 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: that question, i'd be I'd be a hedge fund. Fair enough, 547 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: fair enough, you know, the journalist. But I do think 548 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: the biggest open question in crypto is what a regulator 549 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: is going to do. You know, I don't think it's 550 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: going to be an all or nothing. It's all all 551 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: in in the in Salvador way or all against in 552 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: the China way. I think there's and I actually think 553 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: that is much harder in some ways, because it means 554 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: if you're interested in this space, you have to become 555 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: an expert on the regulatory regimes of like fifty different 556 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: governments and you know, an equal number of central banks, 557 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: but the amounts of uncertainty over whether just in state 558 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: by state in the US, for example, you are allowed 559 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: to like access meta mask or some other kind of 560 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 1: wallets is considerable, and that is certainly weighing on consumer 561 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: access because institutional investors will always find ways around um 562 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: whatever regulations are. And then I would say the second 563 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: thing is we'll probably start to see some price normalization 564 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: across various types of asset classes. And I don't think 565 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: the price normalization necessarily means we're going to decline in 566 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: another for I think there's going to be more of 567 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: a reliable median for certain types of things. You know, 568 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: like the the NFC market right now is such a barbell. 569 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: It's like hundreds of millions of dollars or two. It's 570 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 1: like and there's there's you know, significant concentration on the 571 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: two end, and a handful of examples on the hundreds 572 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars, and and that's not super sustainable 573 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: or attractive or interesting, right Like it's it's hard to 574 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: become a mass market product if you either offer very 575 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: little or you offer a ton, but only if you 576 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: have significance capital too to guess into that space. And 577 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: so I think we'll probably start to see a little 578 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: bit more of a shake out there, just so things 579 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: kind of settled to a place that make more intuitive 580 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: sense to folks. Tiden up your straight jackets. It's time 581 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: for the craziest things we saw in markets this week. 582 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: Stand clear of the craziest things we saw this year. 583 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: What's the craziest crypto or other story in markets he 584 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: saw this year? Well, I've been thinking a lot about 585 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: this because obviously I covered a lot of them, and 586 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: it was really hard to make up my mind. But 587 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: something that I read recently is sticking out, and Stacy 588 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 1: a little bit already was alluding to this. So Stacy 589 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: earlier had said at the start of the year it 590 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: was all scams all the time, and so and so 591 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: lost their crypto keys, etcetera, etcetera. And there actually is 592 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: this amazing story from the New Yorker called half a 593 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: billion in bitcoin lost in the dump. So my second 594 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: shout out today that one goes out to the New Yorker. 595 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: It's an amazing story of this person who claims to 596 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: be the fifth person to have been mining bitcoin like 597 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: way way long ago, and he unfortunately lost his hard 598 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: drive that has all the information on it. So he's 599 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: trying so hard to literally dig it out from a 600 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: dump in England. Is that the guy he's like in Wales? Yeah? Right, 601 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: I remember reading about that. Yeah. And he's trying to 602 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: the UK, trying to pay off the operator to let 603 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: him in with the metal. I mean, is finding it though, 604 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 1: But it's something like a few hund million dollars worth 605 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: five it's I think it's five hundred million dollars right, yeah, So, 606 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: but it's amazing he has all these blueprints for how 607 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: he's going to dig it up little by little and 608 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: have it go through metal detectors and all these people 609 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: who are going to be working on it. Who's going 610 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: to get a cut and you just you you feel 611 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: his pain. But at the same time, I love the 612 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: idea of it being about, you know, him actually just 613 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: losing a little computer a piece, so, but an actual 614 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: physical thing that he lost. If I were him, my 615 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: first line of questioning would be, like, did any employees 616 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: of the dump retire early? I I want to know 617 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: who they It's a really good point. That's that's who 618 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: I That would my investigation would start there. But Stacy, 619 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: how about you? I don't suppose you saw anything crazy? 620 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: And crypto markets show every everything is super chill all 621 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: the time. Um, in October, if there were a bunch 622 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 1: of headlines about the fact that, like, whoa, this crypto punk, 623 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: which is a collection of n f T has just 624 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: sold for five hundred million dollars. What's happening? Mind is 625 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: blown And then we're like, wait a minute, the person 626 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: who sold and bought the crypto punk is of the 627 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: same it was. You know, it was wastrating, right, and 628 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: like the person was doing it for the lulls whatever. 629 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: But it was enabled by a kind of a smart contract, 630 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: a flash loan, right, which is the idea that you 631 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: could just in the space of seconds, like the time 632 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: it takes to perform that transaction on the blockchain, put 633 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: something up for sale, borrow a bunch of money to 634 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: buy it back, and then repay that money in the 635 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: process of selling it back to yourself. Like this just 636 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: with computer code was fascinating to me because I thought, okay, one, 637 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: here's the world for which regulates is a completely unprepared 638 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: and it's just sort of another example of you know, 639 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: there will be some folks who always have alpha because 640 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: they understand different ways to end run the system, right 641 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: and you know, you could argue that wash trading is 642 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: kind of victim lest crime. The I R S might 643 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: have perspectives on that, the mere fact that the cost 644 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: of that transaction was minimal to this person because like 645 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: flash loans are generally on collateralized, like you don't have 646 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: to put up a bunch of money to borrow it. 647 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: Like what what are the if you think expansively about 648 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: what that might mean for more interesting transactions. It was 649 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: a little bit mind blowing that. Yeah, and it goes 650 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: back to your point of everything old is new again. 651 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,959 Speaker 1: I think I was supposed to write a story about 652 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: that night. Prodecy we do about it? Then that you 653 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: were busy is another year, the new opportunity for more 654 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: balls to drop. So we're recording this a couple of 655 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: weeks early here, right in the middle of December, and 656 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: mine was just the really just a couple of nights ago, Stacy, 657 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: when we're sitting there and you all of a sudden said, 658 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: the price of bitcoin is up about eight million percent 659 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: or something. I forget the exact number, but some data 660 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: era happened I guess somewhere between coin base and coin 661 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: market cap, where prices just went bananas. You know, I 662 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: don't even know what the top tick of bitcoin was 663 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: and that that error, but it was. It was something 664 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: in the hundreds of millions, I think, maybe even in 665 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: the billions, and even shiba you know. I think at 666 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: one point it was worth twenty nine thousand dollars uh 667 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: per shiba, you know, which is worth way below it 668 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: a fraction of a penny. But it does, you know, 669 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: it goes back to that notion of where how the 670 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: industry needs to mature and and where it's going. I mean, 671 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: to me, what was amazing is people just left it off. 672 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: You know, people were doing screenshots of their accounts with 673 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: billions of trillionaire a trillionaire and a hundred billion dollars 674 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: in my coin basis. I mean, in a way, it 675 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: makes me think, well, the users kind of have matured 676 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: enough to know an error when they see it. So 677 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: maybe maybe that's part of it, is the user base. 678 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: Now it's not just sort of the plumbing of the 679 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: market and everything, but the users themselves kind of know 680 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: when they say it, you know what I mean. I 681 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: think I think the reason that that was okay was 682 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: that everything went up. That's true, I mean, because you know, 683 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: imagine let's say everything had massively gone down and that 684 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: had triggered like liquidations for instance, or you know, or 685 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: like blew through someone's stop orders. We might have been 686 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: having a very different conversation yesterday. Then that would not 687 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: be as funny, would not have been as a funny joke. Well, 688 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: I think instinctively, you know, that's kind of what you 689 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: worry about. You could you could see theoretically, you know, 690 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 1: something happening to cause a massive you know, dropping bitcoin 691 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: to see a massive million, ten million percent rally would seem, 692 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, on its face, less pausible. I guess I know. 693 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: With that said, I don't know. I it's hard gonna 694 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: be hard to top the crazy things of words. I 695 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: hopefully I'm chexing it. We have. We've got plenty of 696 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: more crazy stories to write next year. What do you 697 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: think filled out of Yeah, for sure, no way that 698 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: it's not going to be crazy again. Stacyvil that is 699 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: most excited about bitcoin and crypto being seven because that 700 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: means she gets to work on the weekends, like she 701 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: she does not have to like figure out something like 702 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: absolutely not. My eyes go wide every time somebody brings 703 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: it up. There they go. They did just go eyes. 704 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: I think the laser beams shot out of her eyes 705 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: on that one too. Anyway, I think that's all the 706 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: time we have it. Stacy. Is so great to have 707 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: you on the show, and we're definitely gonna bring you 708 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: back a few times to make sense of all this 709 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: because it's here to stay like it or not, it's 710 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: here today exactly. Thank you Stacy a pleasure What Goes Up. 711 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find 712 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 1: us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app or wherever 713 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took 714 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: the time to rate and review the show on Apple 715 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And you can 716 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter, follow me at Reaganonymous. Will Dotta 717 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: Hirich is that Will Dota Hirich. You can also follow 718 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcasts at podcast and Thank you to Charlie Pellett 719 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Radio. What Goes Up is produced by Laura Carlson. 720 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: The head of Bloomberg Podcast is Francesco Levy. Thanks for listening, 721 00:40:44,800 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 1: See you next time. Four