WEBVTT - What the Berkshires Learned by Launching its Own Currency 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:14.040 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:18.239 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. So, Tracy, one 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.360 of the big themes and economics this year has been 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.720 this idea of sort of you know, you see it 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.920 at the national level, of sort of local reliance. Are 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.720 the President talks about buying American and how that's a value. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.440 But it's kind of interesting because this idea of like 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.880 buying local or buying American, it's a it's an idea 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:46.040 that sort of transcends traditional sort of a political viewpoints. Yeah, 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.200 that's right, So everyone wants well, it feels like everyone 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.080 kind of wants to look inward right now, at least economically. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.880 And when we think about that, I guess on a 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.520 global basis, a lot of people tend to get outraged, 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.080 you know, the end of globalization, less free trade. But 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:04.880 it's funny because when you look at it on a 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.080 smaller basis, the idea of buy local is kind of 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.720 a cugly concept, right, Yeah, it seems like buying local 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.840 is one of those things that economists who teach or 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.600 academic economists say, oh, it's a bad idea, and free 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.360 trade is what's most wealth maximizing, and it really shouldn't 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.080 matter where you get it from as long as the 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.160 cheapest and best quality. But it feels like people always 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.039 have this sort of intuition about it and and some 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.240 level of another, whether it's sort of more protectionist, more 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.560 right wing, whether it's more left wing, sort of buy 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.479 from the local farmer. There's a lot of people seem 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.839 to have some sort of moral intuition relating to buying 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.800 local that sort of conflicts a little bit with what 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.240 the you know, the proper economics literature would say. Yeah, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.360 it's a really funny tension in economics, isn't it. Why 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.120 Why are we talking about this? I'm glad you asked, 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:03.160 because today we're going to um combine this topic of 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:07.280 buying local with another favorite topic of the Odd Lots podcast, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:11.320 which is sort of alternative currencies and the nature of 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.480 money and stuff like that, because we're going to be 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:22.919 talking about something called birk Shares, like Berkshire exactly right. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:27.480 It's um the local currency, or it's a local currency 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.720 that was launched in the Berkshires, which is a sort 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:35.000 of well known region in western Massachusetts, and it's a 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.600 local currency for a specific region. In a specific state. 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.440 It's super local exactly right, a hyper local currency. It's 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.400 been around a little over ten years, I think. And 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.320 today on the show we have Ellis Maggio I'm just 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.160 gonna call her. She's sort of like the Federal Reserve 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.440 chair of the Janet yelling of Berkshares. So there's this currency, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.760 birk Shares. She's the ecutive director of it. She's also 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.600 at the Center for New Economics, and she's going to 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.800 join us and we're going to talk about what she 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.440 and others have learned in launching the sort of how 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.440 it works this own regional currency. All right, I guess 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.400 we'll have to ask her about the elusive wage growth 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:30.280 in the Berkshires as well. Let's get right to it. Elis, 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.079 thank you very much for joining us, Thanks for having me. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.160 So let's just answer the first obvious question for people 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:41.200 are what are Berkshires. Well, you've described it pretty well. 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:46.040 Berkshairs are a local currency that are only used in 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:51.040 the Berkshire region of Massachusetts, and their paper currency. They 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:56.200 have really beautiful design by John isaacs Um that features 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.480 local heroes on the front and local artwork on the back. 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.960 So we celebrate people who are associated with the Berkshire 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:07.040 Is in some way who have done important things, including 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.760 Norman Rockwell and Herman Melville and W. E. B. Du Bois, 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:15.960 but also a Stockbridge Mohican and Robin van And who 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.880 started the first c s A in the country. Now 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.039 I want to talk about the economics and all that 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.479 and the monetary policy of Berkshares, but before I do, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.960 I don't want to forget another question, because it's something 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.920 we overlook a lot. It's interesting that you immediately talked 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.640 about the designs on the money, because when people talk 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:40.359 about money from a sort of economic or monetary policy standpoint, 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.960 but no one really ever talks about the designs on money. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.760 But it's always there. Every country has always put a 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:50.000 lot of pride into honoring people on their money money, 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.279 and no country has ever just had like a sort 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.520 of blank token that doesn't represent anything. Part of what 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.760 makes the currency work is sort of this sort of 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.920 uh uh, this sort of mythical way, you know, we 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.200 we imprint on it important symbols. Yeah, it's it's a 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.680 symbol and it's something that you have in your hand 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.280 every day, so why not make it mean something, um 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.039 that you care about and so we tried to. We 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.400 took very good care to make sure that berk shares 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.239 were beautiful and it would be something that people could 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:24.120 take pride in using and also just be intrigued by 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.400 and attracted to. And so I think that we were. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.839 I'm really glad that they are so beautiful because it 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.760 makes it so much easier to talk about. And UM, 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.360 I think it's something that we've always done, but I 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.600 think it's also in a longer tradition of um of 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:47.200 local currencies in this country. We've actually had local currencies before, 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.719 and UM, there were That's why we have such things 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.160 as bank notes. That's why we know them as bank notes, 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.400 because banks used to issue their own currencies and they 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.840 often had symbols on them of the local industry or 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.560 locally significant people. UM. So we're kind of touching on 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.719 a long history here. So I'm going to ask the 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.200 basic question then, UM, walk us through exactly what the 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:17.440 thinking was behind launching this beautifully designed currency and how 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.080 exactly it works, because I mean, I know there's a 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.960 long history of local currencies in the US, but there 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.839 aren't that many around nowadays, right. UM, Well, we'll start 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.919 with how it works, so you can go to any 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.839 of sixteen branches of four different banks in this area 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:39.320 all the way from Sheffield and Great Barrington, Massachusetts up 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.560 to North Adams and Williams Williamstown, Massachusetts, which is from 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:48.640 the south to the north of of Berkshire County UM 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.640 and you can walk into one of these banks. They're 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.919 all community banks, so they're pretty small and they're focused 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:58.160 on this area, and you can change your dollar into berkshares. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.520 Sos will get you in Berkshire and then you can 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.680 take that Berkshire and spend it in the local economy. 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.120 There are four hundred participating businesses throughout the region, so 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.200 you can spend your work shares with any of those 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.520 businesses as if they were dollars, which means that if 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.160 you're the one who goes to the bank to get 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.280 birk shares, then you are getting a five percent discount 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.040 when you spend them. And then it's on the other 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.320 end if you wanted to take your berk shares back 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.720 to the bank, you could, you would only gets per berkeshare, 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.400 So it's a disincentive for leaving the system and an 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.120 incentive for starting to use berkshares. And I think there's 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.760 an example on your website that makes it very clear. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.960 But let's say I know I want to go out 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.320 and have a nice dinner that's cost gonna cost me 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.120 a hundred dollars. I buy a hundred dollars worth of 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:51.160 berk shares and go out and buy the hundred dollar dinner. 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:56.080 The participating businesses commit to accepting them at a one 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.560 to one exchange rate, and then they take they can 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.080 then re cycle them back into normal US dollars. But 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.160 in a sense, it's a way for them to give 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.920 a five percent discount to people who have, you know, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:14.160 committed to shopping and eating and doing business locally. Yeah, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.600 it is UM, And then if they wanted to, they 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.000 could keep spending their berkshares. That's actually the ideal situation 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.160 where they would take the hundred birk shares that you 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.320 spent with them, and they would turn around to their 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.240 suppliers and spend some birk shares with them, so that 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.440 it keeps the money circulating in this area with other 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.520 local suppliers. And it's already been shown that UM local 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:40.000 locally owned businesses actually choose to spend their money with 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.480 other locally owned businesses much more than any kind of 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:48.000 chain or corporate UM box store would. So this is 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.440 kind of reinforcing that um what what people call the 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:56.160 local multiplier effect and making it even stronger. Already, if 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.680 if you're just dealing with dollars, you're one dollar that 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.080 you bend in a locally owned retail store is going 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:06.280 to circulate four times more in a locally local economy, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.960 spend your one dollar spent in a chain store. So already, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.800 with dollars you you can make a big difference spending locally. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.400 But with birk shares, we try to go to the 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.600 next level and also build in a whole educational and 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.640 symbolic element to it. So we kind of touched on 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.760 this in the intro. But the idea here is to 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:32.960 amplify that local multiplier effect and get more money circulating 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.520 around your particular region. But do you ever get like, 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.880 it sounds really great, you're boosting local businesses, But do 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.160 you ever get people say in the in the next 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.520 stay over complaining about the local currency and the fact 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:49.800 that they you know, can't get in on it, or 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.439 it's limiting business in some way. Oh I don't think so, um, 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.920 because we don't really limit birk shares to state lines. UM. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.480 Our banks right now are all in Massachusetts, UM, but 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:06.400 we have businesses over in New York State, in Columbia County, UM, 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.160 and a little bit into UM maybe into Vermont but 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.800 probably not that much, but a little bit into Connecticut. 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.120 So we kind of wanted to be more organic UM 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.480 and follow the lines of the Berkshire economy, and with 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:24.960 the Berkshire economy doesn't follow necessarily UM state lines. So 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.400 if you have business with somebody across the state, across 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.520 the line in New York State, UM, and they want 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.440 to take berkshares from you, then that's fine with us. 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.400 We don't get involved. We think that you should just 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.960 do what makes sense for your business, all right. I 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.120 want to really get into the nitty gritty about the 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.680 mechanics of this. So one of one question I have 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.760 is how do you guarantee that there is always the 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:56.800 money to redeem your berkshares for cents on the dollar? 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.719 I mean, what is the institutional setup you have in 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.160 place to guarantee that the amount of money available for 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.760 redemption is always perfectly matched with the amount of burk 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.840 shares out in circulation. So ten years ago, when we 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:15.319 started burk Shares. We actually we turned to the bank 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:20.200 branch managers to help us figure out those mechanics because 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.880 we're not community bankers, but we really wanted to work 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.880 with our community banks and we didn't want to create 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.480 a local currency that cut them out of the picture 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.240 because they are just as important as the locally owned 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.319 businesses in our local economy. So we turned to them. 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.320 And we actually have a long history of the Schumacher 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:43.120 Center for New Economics UM has kind of fostered local 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.280 economy projects UM local currencies in this region, and there 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.959 have been experiments here over the course of the last 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.480 thirty five plus years UM, and that's kind of what 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.960 led up to berk Shares as they are now. But 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.400 when we started burk Shares, we turned to those branch 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.920 managers and we said, how would it work for you? 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.560 What would be the best system, and they came up 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.440 with a system we have, which is that Berkshares Incorporated 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:13.120 has a checking account with each different branch that has 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:18.160 birk shares for exchange available for exchange, and UM, when 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.160 you go with your dollars to get your hundred birk shares, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.160 those go into that checking account owned by birk Shares, Inc. 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.560 And they sit there and they're backing the hundred berkshares 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.760 that come out and UM that happens at any of 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.800 the branches that are involved, and we just keep an 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.439 eye on those balances because we own all of them. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.319 So we get regular checking account statements every month UM, 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:46.640 and we have online banking and we can check those 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.160 accounts and make sure that none of them fall too 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.479 low or anything. But generally they serve as the UM. 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.440 They basically are allowing for liquidity so that you could 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.360 go back and get your change of berkshares back into 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.160 dollars at any of those branches. So Joe joked that 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.560 you were kind of like the Janet Yellen for berk shares. 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.319 Is that true? Like, to what extent does this currency 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.280 mimic an actual currency like the US dollar? And I 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:21.840 know it's pegged at the moment um to a hundred. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:27.480 Have you ever, for instance, considered deep hagging it. No, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.280 it's a good question, UM, we have so kind of 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:37.440 the way that berkshares differs from a national currency is 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.960 is exactly the way we want to differ. We want 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:48.160 to be a local, place based, nonprofit issuer of currency 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.600 UM with an open membership and democratic governance. So anybody 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.880 who lives here can become a member of berk Shares 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.760 for birk Shares or twenty five dollars a year. Those 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.679 membership dues will give you are right to vote at 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:03.720 the annual meeting, and you could run for the board 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.680 or you could vote for the board. So the Board 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.920 of Directors has chosen from among residents of the Berkshires. 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.800 By residents of the Berkshires, the Board of Directors then 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.760 gets to make decisions about the currency. Of course, the 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.720 federal Reserve and the national national currency is meant to 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.880 be in some respect governed by the people of the 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.120 United States, but it's definitely far beyond our reach to 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.560 make very many decisions about our currency or about monetary policy. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.560 So we're trying to create another system, another layer that 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.600 isn't going to ever replace the dollar, but that's going 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.400 to be a currency where we have a lot more 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.960 say at the local level, and we can create a 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:49.000 currency that will respond to local conditions uh in a 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.560 more agile way and basically fill in gaps in the 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:58.040 local economy and use local knowledge to do that. So 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.800 that's what the structure birk Shares looks like. And so 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.160 I work with the Board of Directors of berk Shares 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.520 and the board of directors is elected by UM, the 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.440 members of the organization. And so I guess that's kind 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:18.400 of how it works structurally. And then what else? What 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.200 was there your other part of your question? I was asking, 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.480 have you ever considered depegging it, you know, in times 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.400 of economic crises or something. Yeah, well, that is what 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.040 we're kind of. We're trying to create another level of 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.120 like what you guys were saying earlier, resilience at the 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.600 local level, so that UM we have a tool. We 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.920 think of Birkshares as a tool for community self reliance 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.200 and that way, the Board of Directors could, working with 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.880 our partner banks and businesses, make a decision to change 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.560 the exchange rate. And we actually have done that. We 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.880 started off with ninety cents to the dollar to the 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.840 burkeshare UM and now it's to the birchtry. That was 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.200 a big deal to change it. But the Board of 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.880 Directors decided to do that UM based on feedback we got. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.640 And so we could in the long run decide to 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.400 unpeg from the dollar if we wanted to, and UM 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.600 that would actually be going more in the direction of 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.200 those local currencies we were talking about before, because um, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:27.480 those local currencies weren't really tied to other currencies. They 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.200 were kind of based on They were issued based on 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:34.360 productive loans that the banks would make too local businesses. 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.480 So the amount of money going out into the local 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.560 community from the bank would be based on the need 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:46.160 for that that capital by local businesses, and the basically 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.240 would be backed by the future production of those local businesses. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.440 So the money they were issuing was backed by future 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.560 production of goods and services in the local economy. And 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.840 if we were to move in that direction, which we 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:04.760 actually aspire to do, um, then we would be moving 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.840 towards the currency that was not backed so much by 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.880 the dollar, but backed by production of goods and services 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.639 in the local local economy. Here, that's cool, all right, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.159 Here's a here's a cynical question. There's a fot So 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.960 at one point there was a ten cent spread between 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.600 the amount data costs to buy them and the amount 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.479 at a cost to redeem them. Has anyone ever tried 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:32.960 to game it by, say, you know, offering offering establishments 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.040 for their berk shares or nine cents or anything like 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.919 that an attempt to profit or arbitrage away that that 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:47.320 bid ask spread Joe, You're always looking for the arbitrage everyone, 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.320 you know, everyone was thinking it. Who's listening to this? 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:54.359 So we do UM so we have agreements with our 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.360 banks about the way that the exchange takes place. So 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.360 the banks all know that the UM the exchange rate 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.200 iss per Berke share, and that's kind of baked in 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.560 and we when we changed that, we had to do 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.760 it in secret, so it had to be an overnight 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.240 shift where we created all new publicity materials and everything, 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.800 and we trained the bank tellers and everything had to 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.679 happen in secret so that people couldn't um try to 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.720 profit off of that. Um So it is a big 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.439 that would be a big, a big deal to change 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.640 the exchange rate and it was UM but so far 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.399 nobody can really do that because the bank tellers know 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.520 that at the bank the exchange rates per Berke share. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:44.280 What people do on their own is not our business. 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.840 Like you, I've gone to Europe and people have traded 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.879 me euros for Berk shares and it's definitely been in 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:55.640 my favor and I was happy to do that. Um So, 0:18:55.720 --> 0:19:01.280 whatever that that's kind of nobody really knows. It's basically 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.800 up to the value that you place on the birk share. 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.879 UM I have a similar question, I guess, but um like, 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.399 has anyone ever tried to counterfeit Berkshire's Do you get 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:19.240 the same sorts of issues that we see in national currencies. Well, actually, 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.359 we have had. We're kind of proud to say that 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.960 we had one attempt at counterfeit because we think that's 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:27.959 the highest form of flattery. We don't want it to 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.440 happen again. But it is really hard to counterfeit birk 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.920 shares because they are UM. They're printed on extremely high 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:41.240 quality currency paper with high quality printing done by Excelsior 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.840 Printing in North Adams and UM with very intricate design. 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:51.040 So it would be very hard to successfully counterfeit a Berkshire. 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:56.440 And we have, uh, we've trained the cashiers at some 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:01.800 of the bigger establishments that take berkshares to check for 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.359 real birk shares, and it's it's pretty easy to spot 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.360 a fake one, and we've only had happen once one 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.679 Bill And it's such a small community really that it 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.919 would be it would be pretty silly to try to 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.400 counterfeit of Berkshire, because if you got caught, your name 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:23.760 would be mud. So it's been around, you launched it 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.480 in two thousand and six. So what are the big 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.040 lessons you've learned? What are some of the takeaways that 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.040 you've seen in terms of how this affects the local economy. 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.400 If they if say there are two competing family restaurants 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.160 and one excepts birk shares and the other one doesn't, 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.800 do you notice do they notice a difference in their um, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.600 you know, how they do business wise? Like, what are 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.920 some of the you know, the big results and takeaways 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.240 you've seen from this project. Well, I think that the 0:20:53.480 --> 0:21:00.680 educational value is um not to be understated, because um, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:05.000 we just it gets people thinking about the local economy 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.800 and local businesses in a way that we don't really 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.720 do very often normally, because we just kind of look 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.879 for the most convenient way, or we look for the 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:22.199 um the cheapest solution to what we need, and we 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.840 don't always take into account the more human aspect and 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.560 the effects on our environment of our spending choices. So 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.120 birkshires are a tool that can be in everybody's wallet 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.880 and that are very kind of flashy and they've been 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.440 a great way to get conversations going. And so we've 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:43.800 built out, just in the last year, we've built out, 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.119 or the last two years, we've built out an educational 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.720 program for young people that helps them write business plans. 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.639 We brought in mentors for that program. UM and Birkshires 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.159 are kind of like the the the little tool that 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.159 gets people in the door and kind of flips the 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.280 switch to get them thinking about these things. And so 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:09.360 I think that the we always need to remember that 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:14.040 that it's not just a monetary tool, but that it's 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.120 a it's an educational tool, so we have to think 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.800 of ourselves as educators. And then I think beyond that, 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.800 it's a way of kind of seeing our region and 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:28.760 giving ourselves an identity that has to do with the economy. 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:34.600 And to think about a regional economy is something that 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.040 Jane Jacobs called for UM and that Schumacher talked about. 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:44.720 But it's not in our general economics text books necessarily, 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:49.679 it's not in the mainstream UM way of thinking, and 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:53.159 UM I think it's kind of necessary now. So it 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:59.879 has sparked really good conversations at our regional Economic Development 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:06.560 UM organizations, and I think that's really valuable. And then 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.720 it's the other aspect of it is that it's something 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.120 that everybody could have in their pockets. So it's not 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.920 like it's not something that only the people that know 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:20.639 about economics can have their hands on. It's something that 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:24.040 middle schoolers can look at and use, it's something that 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:29.440 retirees can use. It's people who of all different types 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.680 who can then have a say in the local economy 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.240 so that we're not leaving it up to the experts. 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:38.640 We're kind of all becoming economists. So that's the thing 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:42.320 that really gets me most excited about Berkshires, And I 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:46.080 think it's something that we kind of need because we 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:48.480 don't want to just leave it up to the the 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.920 experts because it's not necessarily working for all of us. 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.840 So to take it back and kind of have our 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:57.880 hands on it and have a say is really important 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.560 at this point. And I think that to the Buddhist economics, 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:05.720 yeah conversation. As you were saying that, I was thinking 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:10.880 about exactly that a recent a recent episode on Buddhist 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.080 economics and the sort of other values that we don't 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:18.280 traditionally talk about in economics conversations, but that I think 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:20.480 as we were saying the beginning, people have some sort 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:25.760 of intuitive, intuitive sense that they're important. Yeah, the idea 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:30.440 that morals have a place in economics is I think 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:36.359 a really important concept, but it's not something that's that's 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:42.919 generally talked about. So I think that thinking about how, um, 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:45.880 how the economy is not something that just happens to us. 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.560 It's something that we should be shaping in the way 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:54.840 that aligns with our values. And if our values are two, 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:58.320 take care of each other, take care of ourselves and 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:05.760 um have livelihoods that are really fulfilling, and trying to 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:08.600 find ways that more people can have those livelihoods, and 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:12.920 then we need to take control because really, and that's 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.200 kind of goes back to just the most basic understanding 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:18.320