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Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcasts, where we

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Speaker 1: cover the big money issues in the world of sports,

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Speaker 1: and we continue our conversation with Bloomberg's Jason Kelly and

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Speaker 1: Vanessa Perdomo, who have a new series called Next in

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Speaker 1: Sports premiering.

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Speaker 2: It's been premiering for a while now.

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Speaker 1: Actually, this is number five in the sport that you're profiling.

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Speaker 1: And I mean I don't again, I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: this is a sport or activity, but you're covering this

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Speaker 1: is sports.

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Speaker 3: It's a sport sport. Okay.

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Speaker 1: This is the World Chase Tag, which is basically an

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Speaker 1: elaborate game of tag.

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Speaker 4: Yes, one hundred percent. It is tag times ten. On

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Speaker 4: a whole other level. It is parkour, athletes, stunt you know,

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Speaker 4: men and women who are just elite. This is my

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Speaker 4: favorite sport that we've covered throughout the show.

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Speaker 5: Really, yes, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: Why is that other than obviously, well, we have an

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Speaker 4: episode coming up on the NWSL.

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Speaker 5: I was a soccer.

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Speaker 2: Player, so it's near your heart.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so that other than that, and you know, speaking

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Speaker 4: with your favorite news sport.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but this is my favorite at New Sport.

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Speaker 4: It is so intense, it is so much fun to

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Speaker 4: watch that The formula formula for this sport is perfect.

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Speaker 4: It is so so easy to follow. It's someone who

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Speaker 4: is literally just chasing another person. That's all you have

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Speaker 4: to know. It's this is the person running away, and

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Speaker 4: this is the person trying to chase them.

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Speaker 5: It's called evader and a chaser.

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Speaker 4: And it's only twenty seconds, so it's not like you're

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Speaker 4: sitting there watching forever. They have to run away in

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Speaker 4: twenty seconds or they'll be caught.

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Speaker 3: And on an obstacle course.

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Speaker 4: On an obstacle course, why, there's tons of stuff.

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Speaker 5: In their way.

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Speaker 4: There's you know, bars and things to jump over, things

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Speaker 4: to dive through. It is so intense, it is so

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Speaker 4: fun to watch, and I genuinely was really upset I

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Speaker 4: didn't get to try it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I have to say I'm glad I didn't have

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Speaker 6: to try. This is the difference between between us. I

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Speaker 6: went to this place in Atlanta, which is one of

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Speaker 6: the only I think it's one of It was for

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Speaker 6: a while, the only quad, which is the official of

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Speaker 6: the court. It's in suburban Atlanta. It's run by these

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Speaker 6: two young entrepreneurs, like very young. The woman who runs

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Speaker 6: is literally twenty one years old. They are former or

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Speaker 6: current American Ninja Warrior athlete. So I mean this is

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Speaker 6: so if you've watched that, you get a sense of

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Speaker 6: like the climbing and all the strength that's involved. I

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Speaker 6: didn't get it until I saw it live and how

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Speaker 6: like really intense was and how quick and nimble and

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Speaker 6: agile and.

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Speaker 3: T VP's point like you you sort of do get

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Speaker 3: sucked in.

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Speaker 6: And I watched it on TV a few times and

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Speaker 6: it's it's compelling television, and like you know, last episode

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Speaker 6: we talked about cornhole. It's on ESPN.

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Speaker 1: That is the tagline for everything. It's on ESPN's clearly

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Speaker 1: it's a sport. I mean, one thing that I remember

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Speaker 1: from watching the videos when someone described it as a

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Speaker 1: physical form of chess, I thought it as a Hollywood

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Speaker 1: chase scene meets Parkourer, because it always seemed like it

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Speaker 1: was a very laborate chase scene with a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of athleticism as well.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that was notable Vanessa was that small

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Speaker 1: people have an advantage. Yes, right, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: be big and tall and brutish and strong, right.

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Speaker 4: So I think that one of the things that we

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Speaker 4: talked to one of the brothers, who's a co founder

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Speaker 4: in the sport. About Damien Devaux, who created the quad itself,

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Speaker 4: of course, yeah, he created the course itself, so he's

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of thinking about every movement and every

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Speaker 4: obstacle they have on the course. Is that they wanted

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Speaker 4: to make sure that shorter players and taller players both

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Speaker 4: had advantages in different parts of the quad. So shorter

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Speaker 4: players can get really easily underneath or really quick and nimble,

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Speaker 4: but like if you're tall and you have really long limbs,

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Speaker 4: there's other parts where you know you're great. So you saw,

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Speaker 4: I talked to one girl who was shorter than I am,

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Speaker 4: which is really hard to do, and she was seriously,

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Speaker 4: she's an incredible athlete and she's a parkoer athlete, but

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Speaker 4: so she's maybe like five to one. But they have

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Speaker 4: another player on another team who's got to be least

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Speaker 4: six ' eight. He's the stuntman and the Predator movies.

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Speaker 4: So like, the literal difference of people who can play

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Speaker 4: this sport is really.

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Speaker 5: Incredible, and I think they do that very intentionally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again it's speaks to the accessibility and how

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Speaker 1: it's not a limiting sport. It's kind of wide open.

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Speaker 2: There are there co ed teams.

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Speaker 4: There are not co ed teams yet. I think there

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Speaker 4: might have been one girl on one of the men's teams,

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Speaker 4: so technically, I mean you could, but the divisions were

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Speaker 4: mostly men and women's teams.

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Speaker 5: But they have both.

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Speaker 4: They just started women's last year, so they've only been

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Speaker 4: in a couple of events so far. So the one

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Speaker 4: I went to in Columbus was only their second event

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Speaker 4: that women were participating in. But they worked really really hard,

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Speaker 4: you know, the athletes themselves to get it in and

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Speaker 4: they said, you know that Christian and Damien, who are

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Speaker 4: the brothers who co founded the sport, were very on

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Speaker 4: board with having you know, and they it was just

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Speaker 4: something that they sort of overlooked when they first did it.

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Speaker 4: And now there's at least four women's teams. But listen,

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Speaker 4: they're they're obviously just as incredible, and they're they're so

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Speaker 4: fun to watch.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it really, I mean it's incredible to watch. And

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Speaker 6: also I think Vanessa hit on a very key thing

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Speaker 6: that the speed of it and the length of the

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Speaker 6: you know, essentially the sessions, I mean make it very compelling.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you saw it live.

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Speaker 6: It was that I mean talk about Arnold Fest because

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Speaker 6: that that old scene.

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Speaker 2: Wait, Arnold has an Arnold Tchorsnet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Arnold Schwartzeyer.

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Speaker 5: You know, he has this event every year in Columbus, Ohio.

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Speaker 4: That is one of the biggest events in It's definitely

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Speaker 4: the biggest event that Columbus hosts all year, which is

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Speaker 4: saying something because they have a how to state football games

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Speaker 4: and they actually host a lot of events. But it

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Speaker 4: attracts like hundreds of thousands of people every year. So

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Speaker 4: many different things are going on. There's obviously it's a

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Speaker 4: bodybuilding competition for the most part, but it's branched out

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Speaker 4: into all these different ransom things like medieval fighting.

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Speaker 3: Was there.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if they were competing necessarily, but it

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Speaker 5: was there.

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Speaker 2: Sectical.

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Speaker 4: Yes, maybe that's for next season, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 5: Often take another look at balance.

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Speaker 4: We will not joust, Yeah, I will famous put on

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Speaker 4: put on the armor. And then in the corner of

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Speaker 4: this big festival you have World Chase Tag and it

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Speaker 4: is a huge setup, but I mean the middle of

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Speaker 4: a convention center.

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Speaker 5: So if you didn't.

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Speaker 4: Necessarily go there to see it, you probably heard it

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Speaker 4: because it was really loud and there was just a

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Speaker 4: bunch of people stopping into seeing it and they were

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Speaker 4: immediately sucked in. Arnold Schwarzinger himself came by to see

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Speaker 4: it and he was sitting there and he was cheering,

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Speaker 4: and he was so into it because it is literally,

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Speaker 4: like I said, you don't have to ever seen it before. Too.

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Speaker 4: When you're there and watching it, you are sucked in

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Speaker 4: and it is just so fun to watch and again

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Speaker 4: really really hard. You know you're watching. We've talked a

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Speaker 4: lot about this while we're doing this series. You want

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Speaker 4: to see people doing things that you can't do, and

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Speaker 4: you cannot do this.

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Speaker 1: This is speeds of athleticism, definitely when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: you know, stuntman and parkour athletes leading the way here.

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Speaker 1: Who's the money behind this, Jason?

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Speaker 6: So it's interesting because you know they've gathered up some sponsors,

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Speaker 6: but you know, you talked about and you talked to.

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Speaker 3: The founders of the league. It's largely been self funded.

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Speaker 6: They met up with a company called Tupelo Honey, which

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Speaker 6: is a production company which has helped fund it. Because

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Speaker 6: part of this, and I think this is a really

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Speaker 6: important aspect to all of these sports we're talking about,

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Speaker 6: part of it is it's a show, you know, and

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Speaker 6: and part of it is really creating something. You know,

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Speaker 6: later on in the season we're going to talk about

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Speaker 6: a sport called kabate in India, and that's another one

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Speaker 6: that has you know, really created a show around itself

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Speaker 6: and that really draws in an audience. And so I

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Speaker 6: think the ability to really hone the product with different

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Speaker 6: camera angles and and different length that you know, I mean,

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Speaker 6: I think they've experimented with the different obstacles and the

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Speaker 6: timing and you know, some of the rules and whatnot. Uh,

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Speaker 6: that's I think what really has made it a more

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Speaker 6: compelling proposition. But it's like you look around when it's

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Speaker 6: on TV and when you're seeing it live, and you

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Speaker 6: know they are sponsors signing on because people are watching.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that with with Tublo Honey, they

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Speaker 4: came in, like Jason said, they Tublow Honey's one who

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Speaker 4: got got them on ESPN, got them that broadcast. And

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Speaker 4: for Christian and Damien it was almost a hard sell

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Speaker 4: to them because they grew so organically on their own.

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Speaker 4: They were just streaming events from the park that would

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Speaker 4: get a million views on Facebook and on YouTube. So

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Speaker 4: they thought, you know that we're growing at grassroots. Social

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Speaker 4: media very important, which it is, you know, and they're

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Speaker 4: they have a large following on social media because their

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Speaker 4: highlights are sick. But Tuplow Honey was very integral in

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Speaker 4: making sure that they know that broadcast is still very important.

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Speaker 4: As we all know, media rights are one of the

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Speaker 4: biggest money making things in sports. But one of the

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Speaker 4: interesting things about Jason saying, it's a show, it's all this,

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Speaker 4: but they made sure to make that show a sport

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Speaker 4: and not an American you know, and not a dramatization.

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Speaker 4: Somebody tried to do that. There is this big controversy

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Speaker 4: that happened with Fox tried to basically take this sport

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Speaker 4: Tag and they had JJ Watt and his brother host

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Speaker 4: a show called Tag and they did this thing, but

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Speaker 4: it was very they dramatized it in a way that was.

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Speaker 2: They turned it into reality show ye.

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Speaker 4: Basically, and Christian and Damien were very against doing that.

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Speaker 4: So that wasn't them and they were against doing that

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Speaker 4: because they said there's enough drama in sports, you don't

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Speaker 4: have to make it silly almost, which.

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Speaker 6: I have to say, I feel like is one of

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Speaker 6: the really interesting through lines and debates through this whole

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Speaker 6: series is how do you balance what we all, to

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Speaker 6: Vanessa's point, really love about sports, which is the unpredictability

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Speaker 6: of it, but also bounce it with the storytelling that

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Speaker 6: can make the sport that much more interesting because you

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Speaker 6: can get emotionally invested in it. I mean, it's the

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Speaker 6: you know, going back to an early episode with Formula One,

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Speaker 6: one of the reasons people love Formula one so much

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Speaker 6: is now we know who the drivers are, we know

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Speaker 6: their relationships with each other, we know the relationships with

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Speaker 6: their team principles, with their partners, with all its sponsors.

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Speaker 6: Even so, there has to be that right balance of it,

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Speaker 6: and it's a tricky one because if you go too far,

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Speaker 6: you get into this sort of like Madeline. I feel

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Speaker 6: like that's one of the things that people don't like

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Speaker 6: as much about American Ninja Warriors sometimes is like, all right,

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Speaker 6: here comes the like sabby backstory you know of like

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Speaker 6: this guy is just like just trying to make it happen,

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Speaker 6: and in fact you want to see if like he

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Speaker 6: can make.

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Speaker 1: That jump right because they want to see the athleticism.

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Speaker 1: They appreciate the backstory to understand where this person's coming from.

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Speaker 1: But it shouldn't be the forefront of the.

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Speaker 4: Story exactly, and it doesn't always have to be super sad. Yes,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't always have I mean the same thing with

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Speaker 4: the voice. It's always like the saddest thing and you're like,

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Speaker 4: is this person even gonna make it on the show?

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Speaker 3: Wow? Voice call that? I like it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I do love the voice, but sometimes they just

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Speaker 4: they they lose me.

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Speaker 1: I think you brought up an interesting thing, though, which

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Speaker 1: is that Fox came up with its own version of

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Speaker 1: Chase Tag, some kind of Chase Tag. I think they

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Speaker 1: called it Ultimate Tag. What happened to it in the end? Yes,

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Speaker 1: they invested too much in the storytelling and you know

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Speaker 1: the drama behind it. But couldn't someone else come along

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Speaker 1: and create another quad or course for you know, Chase

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Speaker 1: Tag and compete with these brothers.

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Speaker 5: They they could if they want to.

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Speaker 4: They can't make a quad because that they do have

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Speaker 4: a patent on the quad itself.

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Speaker 2: But tag is you know.

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Speaker 5: You know, is universal thing.

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Speaker 4: And I think that for Christian and Damien it was

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Speaker 4: a hard time when Ultimate Tag was on because they said,

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Speaker 4: if it fails, then it would reflect badly on us

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Speaker 4: that this is not a viable business. And if it succeeds,

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Speaker 4: then they'll put us out of business.

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Speaker 5: And so it did.

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Speaker 4: Fail because I forget why they weren't renewed for another

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Speaker 4: season other than the fact that they just they didn't

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Speaker 4: do it right. Is really kind of what it was.

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Speaker 4: And I think a lot of the World Chase Tag

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Speaker 4: players tried to do that show as well, and they

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Speaker 4: said it wasn't really the same, but experience was off.

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Speaker 4: The experience was off, and so it could happen again.

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Speaker 4: But I think that them failing to renew a second

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Speaker 4: season or to go on probably makes others weary of

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Speaker 4: doing it and to just you just now invest into

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Speaker 4: World Chase Tag.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see. I mean, with

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Speaker 6: all of these worts to be interesting to see. You know,

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Speaker 6: do people keep doing doing it?

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Speaker 3: Does the skill level get better?

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Speaker 6: Do you know, the the viewing public is pretty fickled,

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Speaker 6: you know, do they sort of I mean with this

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Speaker 6: and you know, last episode we talked about cornhole, Like,

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Speaker 6: do people eventually sort of get sick of it and

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Speaker 6: move on?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I really don't.

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Speaker 6: American Ninjoyor has obviously been like a very lasting franchise.

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Speaker 3: This could be as well.

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Speaker 6: I mean, you know, I talked to some of the

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Speaker 6: executives at ESPN who are who are backing this. I mean,

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Speaker 6: they love the content, they love the live sports. So

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Speaker 6: just as we've been talking about, so we'll see. I mean,

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Speaker 6: it's a relatively low amount of investment. That's one of

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Speaker 6: the things that I think makes this appealing. So jury

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Speaker 6: still out, but.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the thing with with Christian and Damien, you know,

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Speaker 4: funding a lot of it before too blow Honey came in.

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Speaker 4: The quad itself is not expensive right to make, so

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Speaker 4: that that's what we talked about with Cornhole. It's the licensing,

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Speaker 4: the merchandising. If they license that quad and now more gyms,

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Speaker 4: our Core gyms and American Ninja Warrior gyms have them in,

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Speaker 4: that's revenue for them as well. And it's it's low.

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Speaker 4: You know, the obstacles are made of metal, like, it's

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Speaker 4: not a very expensive thing to build, so for them,

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Speaker 4: it's not as high of a risk because you don't

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Speaker 4: have to have.

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Speaker 5: Millions and millions of dollars to start it.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad we didn't play.

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Speaker 5: Though I'm not I looked dangerous.

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Speaker 6: I mean, that was it.

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Speaker 4: I would have had to sign my thousand waivers. We were,

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Speaker 4: but I'm saying I drove a Formula one car. I

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Speaker 4: think I could play some chase head.

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Speaker 3: You're very athletic, but I was.

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Speaker 6: I was worried for both of us, not playing against

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Speaker 6: each other, just playing in general, like once I watch

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Speaker 6: people actually do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: The jumping over things I definitely couldn't do.

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Speaker 2: But diving is sliding under something.

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Speaker 5: That's what I'm saying. The diving this I used to

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Speaker 5: do this. That was, you know what I for. Every

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Speaker 5: time I saw someone do that was like, I can

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Speaker 5: totally do that, but.

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Speaker 4: Not probably not their metal though. The metal bars is

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Speaker 4: something that is a little daunting. You would hear them

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Speaker 4: slap against it and maybe just walk up totally fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is what I love about this series.

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Speaker 1: In each episode, you highlight a different sport that has

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Speaker 1: succeeded for its own reason. Right, pickleball is popular because

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Speaker 1: everyone loves playing it. This is popular because on social

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Speaker 1: media it's a sensation. People can't get enough of it.

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Speaker 1: Twenty second videos of people chasing each other around like

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Speaker 1: it's Hollywood stunts is pretty compelling viewing exactly all right,

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Speaker 1: great stuff, Jason Kelly and Vanessa Perdomo of course, hosting

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Speaker 1: Next in Sports, which is available every Wednesday Bloomberg Television

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Speaker 1: at ten pm Eastern. It's also available on demand through

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Speaker 1: YouTube and on Bloomberg dot com the following day, where

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Speaker 1: you can also catch the previous installments.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, guys.

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Speaker 4: Thanks