1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: You know, we hear of scenarios like this in other 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: countries like Russia or China or North Korea, where people 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: are rounded up in the night and arrested, and they're 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: never really sure about what they're being charged with, and 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: they don't have a voice, they can't speak out, they 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: can't fight back. Well, it's not just Russia and China 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: and North Korea. It happened right here, not just in 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: our beloved America. It happened in Wenatchee, the so called 9 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: apple capital of the world, where there's nothing but apple 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: orchards and green as far as the eye can see. 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you it pains me to tell the 12 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: story because I've told so many juries that they should 13 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: believe a child, because children don't have the skills a 14 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: deception that adults have. It's much harder for them to 15 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: lie and stick to a long, complicated story. Well, that 16 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: much is true unless that statement was coerced forced. I 17 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: am talking about the Valley of Sin, mothers, fathers, pastors, pastors, 18 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: wives being herded up like cattle and thrown behind bars, 19 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: many of them illiterate, couldn't read, didn't understand what was 20 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: going on. Let me introduce to you an all star 21 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: panel joining me today. First of all, Robbie and Connie Robertson, 22 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: let me correct myself. Pastor Robertson and his wife Connie, 23 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: who spoke out against what they saw happening, and how 24 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: did they get paid back? They were thrown in jail 25 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: and Pastor Robertson was beaten. Rebecca Osborne, the Robertson's daughter. 26 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Tom Grant Award winning journalist thirty plus years, former reporter 27 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: k R em now Professor Journalism at a back Abraham 28 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: Baldwin Agricultural College and co producer of In the Valley 29 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: of Sin and many other documentaries at doctor Thomas Grant 30 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Elizabeth Loft us with us. She's especially important. 31 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: She's a distinguished professor psychological sciences and she is the 32 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: author of the myth of Repressed Memory. Some of these 33 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: children were put into treatment to regain their lost memories. 34 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: There were no memories to regain. They were coerced to 35 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: say their parents raped them. Shocking right here in our country. 36 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: And Catherine Lyon, author of a witch Hunt, A true 37 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: story of social hysteria and abused justice, former public defender 38 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: right there in Pierce County, Washington, to all of you. Welcome. 39 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: It's a very bitter pill for me to swallow to 40 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: realize what happened within our justice system. First of all, guys, 41 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: take a listen to Pastor Robertson. Plus, it's really weird. 42 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: I guess what really started the whole ball roll? And 43 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: then this thing was on a Thursday night prayer meeting 44 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: that happened to be kneeling here at the altar, had 45 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: been praying for all these people because it was really 46 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: troubled me, especially about the Everts in this old Bible 47 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: right here. You know, it was like this, and I 48 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: just happened to kind of look over like this, and 49 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: it was a passage in Psalms or Proverbs. I don't 50 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: remember which one, but basically it said who is going 51 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: to defend those who cannot speak for themselves? And I 52 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: just looked at that and I'm going like, Wow, that's 53 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: Harold and Idella, that's mister and missus Everts. Your words, 54 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: Pastor Robertson really moved me. I never try in a 55 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: single case without my Bible on the table, hoping for 56 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: a divine intervention and praying that I always do the 57 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: right thing. Pastor Welcome, Connie welcome, and to Rebecca Osborne, 58 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: your daughter, welcome first to you, Pastor Robertson what happened. 59 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: I can't believe this. I'm already crying. I I feel 60 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: like crying. If that makes feel any better, good, thank you. Yeah, 61 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: I'll be okay in a minute. No, camp, are you 62 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: still a working pastor? Yes, ma'am. Maybe five years. The 63 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: only time we weren't behind the pulpit was when we 64 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: were in jail, when even in jail, I think it 65 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: was a Nistro service that I preached on the telephone 66 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: until they finally found out what was happening, and then 67 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: they picked that away from even But yeah, that was 68 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: the only time that Connie and I haven't been behind 69 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: the pulpit. There's a Pentecostal church and guide House of 70 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: Prayer in East Winnaci and it's been, like I said, 71 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: thirty thirty five years. And I'm very difficult for the 72 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: last few years because of the stigma still from the 73 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: Winnaci sect. Oh well, you know, I gotta tell you, 74 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: whenever I would be prosecuting and I look at somebody's 75 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: rap sheet and I'd say dismissed, dismissed, dismissed, vaka, and 76 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: I'm like, you're right. I didn't wouldn't really believe it. 77 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: And the other day, Pastor I spoke to well many 78 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: many of the then child victims of rape and molestation 79 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: and the guilt and the self loathing and hatred they 80 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: suffer because they blamed their mother and their father of 81 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: raping and abusing them and it was all a lie, 82 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: and mommy and daddy went to jail and they got 83 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: to carry that around. I mean, the mommies and daddies 84 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: were ultimately released, but you're right, you carry the stigma 85 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: of being arrested and charged with, for peak's sake, child molestation, 86 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: the lowest of the low, and your children have to 87 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: live with their forced statements that ended up putting you 88 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: in jail. I mean, what a travesty. Okay, I don't 89 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: want to hear me. I hear me all the time. 90 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: I want to hear you. So you're at prayer service 91 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: and it's a Thursday night. You see that phrase out 92 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: of the Bible, and what did you do. I turned around, 93 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: I stood up and I say season everybody, and everybody 94 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: was on the kneel underneath brain. Some of the cues 95 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: and some of the pulpits and some of the altar, 96 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: and I told everybody, I said, I need to go down. 97 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: There's a meeting tonight with a guy from from Spokane, 98 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: the Vocal group who put it together. I said, I 99 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: need to take all this material I put together, and 100 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: unfortunately I may be causing trouble for everybody. We need 101 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: him be arrested. But I'm going down to this meeting 102 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: and we'll just see what happens. People need to know 103 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: what I've been finding out. Nobody will listen, I said, 104 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: I tried everything and nobody will listen. And that was it. 105 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: Went down to the meeting and sat there and listened 106 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: to everybody, and mister Grant was sitting the way up 107 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: in front with his camera guy. And now this was 108 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: a town hall meeting. Oh it wasn't. There was a 109 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: town hall meeting that was What wasn't This was a pud. 110 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: This was a meeting just called by a number of 111 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: just citizens from Wenachi, East Wenachi actually at the PD 112 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: Auditorium in East Wenachi. The big town meeting was in Wenachi. 113 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: So when you go there, what led you to go there? 114 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: Why did you feel like you had to take up 115 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: for mister and missus Everett. Well, at that time it 116 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: was kim Albe. It was Donna Rodriguez's daughter who had 117 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: made the recantation. They had forced her. And as you 118 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: were telling them about these kids in the stigma, I 119 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: gotta tell you what happened in Wenachi. All these kids. 120 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: The reason they said what they said, they weren't so 121 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: much cohersting to saying these things to put the people 122 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: in prison. They were cohersting to saying these things to 123 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: keep their parents out of prison. They were told if 124 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: they would say these things, we'll talk to your parents, 125 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: they'll get treatment or whatever, and we will reunite you. 126 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: You'll be back home. And so that was a reason 127 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: that all of this started, was because the kids, oh, 128 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: well okay, and they said, well, yeah, then this did happen. 129 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: And that was that. That's what started this whole thing. 130 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: Did you know the Everett Harold and Idella did I 131 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: know him for years? Richard the oldest son. I tried 132 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: to adopt him, even he was like my own little boy. 133 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: And every day Harold and Idella can't read or write, 134 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: I was there every day at their house. I would 135 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: pick up Richard from school on Saturday mornings. I would 136 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: go over. He was the youngest kid, probably in with 137 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: Nancy too, to write or writing lawn more around my 138 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: church as he would help me. Every day Sunday he 139 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: was there. I literally at one time said that I 140 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: was in the house probably every day, and I think 141 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: it pretty close and I knew everything that was going on. 142 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: The house was never locked. There were times I'd take 143 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: Richard home, maybe at one in the morning, two in 144 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: the morning, three in the morning, I mean late at night, 145 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: sometimes in and out during the day. I was there 146 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: every day. There was never anything in that house. Harold 147 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: and Idella loved their kids. Very poor people. Boy, let 148 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: me tell you. They to carry their children. You know what. 149 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: It reminds me so much of home my mother and thought, well, 150 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: we were poor, There's really no other way to put it. 151 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: But I never knew that. As a child. We were 152 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: so happy and loved. Connie Robertson, Pastor Robertson's wife, also 153 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: with us. Connie, do you remember when you're a husband. 154 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: Pastor Robertson spoke out against these prosecutions and said, there's 155 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: no way the Everetts molested their children. Oh yes, And 156 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: when he decided to go to that meeting. I thought, 157 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: oh man, we're going to be targeted. I really did, 158 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: you know what? It reminds me so much of Daniel 159 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: going in the lions Den when you know you are 160 00:10:47,640 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: aheaded for trouble, but you go anyway crimes to stories 161 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Do you remember, guys, after Pastor Robertson 162 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: goes to the meeting and says what he has to 163 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: say about how the Everetts, Harold and Idella would never 164 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: have molested their children, do you remember what happened next? Connie? Well, 165 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: I wasn't at the meeting. I stayed at the prayer 166 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: meeting at the church with the people that were there. 167 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: But when he told me what went on, I was 168 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: even more sure that we were next. It was like 169 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: guilt by association situation. So yeah, I was shattered. I 170 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: was shaking. Robbie, what happed? Pastor Robbie? What happened after 171 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: you spoke out at that meeting? Nancy called me, Robbie 172 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: from now and don't worry about the pastor part. Tom, 173 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: I can do no kid, do you, preacher? But okay, okay, 174 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: I'll preciate Anyways, Tom Grant, I got down there with 175 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: my file sat in the back, and I noticed when 176 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: I walked in some when Ascie cops. I knew two 177 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: of them, and I just thought, what are these guys 178 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: doing here? And then I looked around and I saw 179 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people that I knew and that 180 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: had been talking about this stuff, mister Robert Kincaid and 181 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: I think maybe Jean Wait. Anyway, there was a number 182 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: of people from when Nancy that I knew had been 183 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: going forward with this. And finally at the end, after 184 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: they talked about all of this stuff, I think it 185 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: was mister Grant or maybe mister Kincay, I don't remember 186 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: who it was, said something about me having this file, 187 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: and you know, was I there, and I tried to 188 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: get up to the front, and as I was walking 189 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: up to the front, Mike McNaughty calling mad Dog. And 190 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: I still believe, despite all this stuff against Bob Perez, 191 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm the one. I believe that Mike mcnah is the 192 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: one that started this whole thing with the Kimball family, 193 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: with Michelle and the kids, not Bob Herres. And I 194 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: think he was the one that led Bob the wrong way, 195 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: and Mike tried to get the file from him, and 196 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: John cruising. As they stopped me going up there, I'm 197 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: more or less one of them said, hey, Mike, the 198 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: camera's on it, and mister Grant's cameraman had the camera 199 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: focused on him, and as they turned around, I took 200 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: my elbows and shoved my weight through both of them, 201 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: almost knocked mister McNaughty over and I went up to 202 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: the front. Naturally, they didn't follow me up there, but 203 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: I went up and I remember mister Grant introduced myself 204 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: and he was sitting in the very front row. I 205 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: can remember this so clear. Right now, I could paint 206 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: a picture for I as an artist, and I said, 207 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: you need to see this stuff, and I said, especially 208 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: this one. And it was a file that had been 209 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: slipped under the door of my church, and the one 210 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: that I showed him I think was from maybe Cindy Andrews, 211 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: I don't remember from who, but it said more or less, 212 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: as of this time, we've not been able to obtain 213 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: any discorders from these children, will continue to work towards this, 214 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, to assist you in the prosecution of their parents. 215 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: And this was from a counselor. This is a counselor's file. Okay, 216 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: hold on, let me understand what you're saying, preacher. You're 217 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: saying that somebody shoved this these documents at your door 218 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: and you looked at them. And it's said, have not 219 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: been able to what obtain enough evidence, but will continue working. 220 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: Oh they don't say evidence that we have not obtaining 221 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: any disclosures from these any of these children as to 222 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: any abuse. I understand, yeah, not just evidence. It was 223 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: discoorsing and others. A kid weren't saying anything. And anyway, 224 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: I actually had it outlined in highlighted and yellow, and 225 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: I remember, and I don't know if Tom remembers this 226 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: that I will never I told this story so many 227 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: times in the last twenty five years. Tom sat in 228 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: the he was on the left, he was on the 229 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: chair in the front. His cameraman had the camera over 230 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: tom shoulder shooting this document that Tom was reading. And 231 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: Tom started reading through it, and I remember him stopping 232 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: and looking at it, and he turned around. He looked 233 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: at me, and I remember this period in his eyes. 234 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: He looked at me and he said, my god, these 235 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: people are innocent or something that's real close to that, 236 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: and actually pretty chure. Joining me right now is Tom Grant, 237 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: an award winning journalist who has co executive produced in 238 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: the Valley of Sin, and asked my wife what he 239 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: put what he calls Tom grantow, I tried never to 240 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: do what a pastor tells me not to do. Knowingly, 241 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: Tom Grant, do you remember that night? I remember that night. 242 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I shad any tears, but you know, 243 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to be exposed. And as an old softie, 244 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: I guess that night was a gathering of people who 245 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: were all interested in these cases. And I had been 246 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: done there and done interviews earlier that day with people 247 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: who were already casting some doubts about about the case. 248 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: And UH, and that night Pastor Robbie and other people 249 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: stood up and said that that the police had been 250 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: had failed to examine this closely and clearly, and that 251 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: there were real problems with the investigation, and of course 252 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: the police who were there refused to answer any questions 253 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: about that, which was one of the things that I 254 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: discovered as time went on, and UH, and Pastor Robbie 255 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: showed me some documents, and I loved documents, and many 256 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: of these documents came from Child Protective Services showing them 257 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: how they were treating the children, what was happening the children, 258 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: because they had to make reports every three months when 259 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: the kid went into two custody, and these these reports 260 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: would indicate that especially the you know, the most credible 261 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: child in the family, Richard was saying that none of 262 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: this ever happened, and that other kids were not making 263 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: you know, incredible disclosures either, and sou so to me 264 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: it was it was raising questions from the very beginning 265 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: about just what kind of investigation was going on. Well, 266 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, there became there came a 267 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: moment where not only was it kept secret that the 268 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: children were not ratting out their parents, documents played a 269 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: major role in discovering the truth. Take a listen to this. 270 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: The documents that Pastor Robbie got, like initial reports, but 271 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: other investigating materials that would have been disclosed to the 272 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: attorneys of these of these people who were accused, and 273 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: in particular the most the most interesting documents were the 274 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: ones that came from child protective Services Because anytime a 275 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: child is taken away from a parent, child protective Services 276 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: has to do regular reports, and those regular reports are 277 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: available to the parents. Crime stories with Nancy Grace guys, 278 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: we are telling you the story of Actually the title 279 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: says it best. In the Valley of Sin, this most 280 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: beautiful rural landscape, a place you had moved to keep 281 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: your children safe. One Natchee, Washington, the Apple capital of 282 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: the world. A massive child molestation, trafficking and child rape scheme, 283 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: a prosecution underway where you have about forty adults charged 284 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: with nearly thirty thousand offenses of child sex molestation involving 285 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: sixty children. It all has turned out to be a lie. 286 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: This after parents put in jail, children torn away from 287 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: their parents, moms and dads literally dragged away from the 288 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: supper table at night to go to jail. And why well, 289 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: after Pastor Robbie Robertson speaks up, well you know what happens. 290 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. Pastor Robbie had been speaking 291 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: up for a long time, and whenever Pastor Robbie spoke up, 292 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: notes would be made, Conversations would be had that well, 293 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: Pastor Robbie must have a reason for doing this, and 294 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: obviously some bad reason, like he's involved with something, and 295 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: they began to target him. Pastor Robbie, do you remember 296 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: when you were arrested only too well, only too well, 297 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: it's March twenty eighth. It was just a couple of 298 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: days after that meeting with Tom Grant actually, and I'll 299 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: never forget it that it was they aired that the 300 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: documents that I showed Tom. They aired it that night 301 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: on Crampton News. It was pretty interesting and at that 302 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: point I began to be pretty scared. On Monday, I 303 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: remember I was doing pickups and stuff down to Top 304 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: Foods and the owners of Top Foods, the managers down 305 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: to the big grocery chain, they had bought a huge 306 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: reefer truck for us for our food bank. We were 307 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: hauling food up to a water golf. Anyway, it was 308 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: here are some cops pulled in and they just pulled 309 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: in and Rebecca and I were unloading food and they 310 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: go through and I looked and they just kind of 311 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: looked and drove by, and that was it. And I thought, well, 312 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: that's weird. That was on Monday, Tuesday morning. The next 313 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: morning here it was food and hundreds of people. And 314 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: that night on Monday night a national television. It was 315 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: really weird. I think it was Dan rather whatever the 316 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: CBS network was, And here just come up about when 317 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: Anti and the document and hear that very same one 318 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: that I had given to Tom. They showed the documents, 319 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: they showed the highlighting on it and everything, and this 320 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: was the document about no you know, no disclosures from 321 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: the kid. And I'm going like, oh man, this is dangerous. 322 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: What happened here? They came over the fences, cops all over, 323 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: state patrol, Sheriff's department, one anti police Department, East, one 324 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: anti police department. I mean, there was like somewhere around 325 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: eight to ten cars from what I can remember, they 326 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: were coming over the fence in the back of the chair, 327 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: people all over the place. Next thing I know, here 328 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: they are coming up and it was healthy was his name. 329 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: To the Douglas County Sheriff's Department said mister Roberson, you're 330 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: under arrest and for child molestation or child rape. And 331 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: they handcuffed me, literally slammed me on the ground. They 332 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: drugged me across the parking a lot basically after I 333 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: got up and put me in the car. And as 334 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: I was being put in the car, just as they 335 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: went by. Unfortunately or fortunately here, Rebecca had been stayed 336 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: overnight with our best friends and they pulled up and 337 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: I kind of mouthed the mark, get her out of her, 338 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: get her out of here. And anyway, all three of 339 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: his two girls and Rebecca were in the back, all 340 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: dressed in the same coat. I walked by, they slammed 341 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: me in the car and that was it. To your wife, Connie, Connie, 342 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: you were actually arrested where you were taking classes at college? 343 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: What happened? Well, I was at the Winnache Valley College 344 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: taking a course on home schooling because I wanted to 345 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: teach my daughter at home. Well, I was sitting in 346 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: the class room Robin Wag and another man. The only 347 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: reason why I know it was Robin Wag because I 348 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: learned out later who he was. Anyway, they came in 349 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: and they had everyone leave the room and they looked 350 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: at me, and I said, what's going on? And they said, well, 351 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: you're under arrest for so many counts of child abuse. 352 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: And I said what. So they handcuffed me in the 353 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: back and marched me down the hallway and right up 354 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: the front where the registration was going on for the 355 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: spring quarter. Lots and lots of people there, through the 356 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: front doors and into the squad car, which is almost 357 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: back behind the school building. They couldn't have taken me 358 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: out the back, but they took me out the front, 359 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: and when I got in the cup car, I realized 360 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: that trouble was on the brew. Let me ask you, 361 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: mister Roberson. Ye're now charged at that point with child molestation. 362 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: Who was supposedly the child you molested? Oh? Many didn't know. 363 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: I had no idea. I had no idea, they didn't. 364 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: But now do you know who the children were that 365 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: you allegedly molested? Yeah, even our own daughter, not only 366 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: the Everitt girls, Evert kids. Does that include Rebecca? And 367 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: joining me right now is Rebecca Osborne, the Robertson's daughter. Rebecca. 368 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, Thank you for having me. Rebecca, 369 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: you pulled up in a car and saw your dad arrested. Yes, 370 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: madam gys me, I remember it clear as day what happened. Oh, 371 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: in that particular instant, I remember, like you said, I 372 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: had stayed the night with some family friends because he 373 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: had two girls that were right around the same age 374 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: as me. Um, we played together all the time, So 375 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: I remember that we had all just gotten coats just 376 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: a couple months prior to this, that were literally all 377 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: exactly the same because we all wanted to look like sisters, 378 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, And so we all had these coats that 379 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: were exactly the same, just different sizes for all three 380 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: of us girls. And we had pulled in because we 381 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: were supposed to meet my dad there for food bank 382 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: that morning. And I remember it was like almost right 383 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: as we got there, looking out the back window, and 384 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: there my dad was being thrown on the ground and 385 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: handcuffed by all the priests and it was just a 386 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: mad house. Everybody was just you know, confused of what 387 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: was going on. And Marv, my dad's friend, was like, 388 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, what do we do? And you know, 389 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: I do remember my dad saying something quietly but tomorrow 390 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: he was like, get her out of here. And so 391 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: Marv just said okay, you know, didn't even say anything, 392 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: just kept going. Pulled out the parking lot. One of 393 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: the cops stopped him and said, what are you doing here? 394 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: And he said, we're just here for food bank. It's Tuesday, 395 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: but looks like there's a bunch of stuff going on. 396 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: So you know, I'm just going to take my girls 397 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: back home. We'll come back another day. And he said, well, 398 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: who's back here? He said, my girls, And they said 399 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: all right, we'll get out of here. And he took 400 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: off and that was the first time the police saw me, 401 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: and they didn't even realize that I was right in 402 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: front of him. Only by the grace of God, Rebecca, 403 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: were you ever questioned, Were you ever questioned as to 404 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: whether your mother and father sex molested you? Oh? Absolutely, 405 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: you know. I was in hiding for a few weeks 406 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: before they finally found me and took me into custody, 407 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: and with your grandma. Yes, yep, I was with my 408 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: grandma when they finally found me. Guys, hold on just 409 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: one moment. We keep referring to Pastor Robertson as being arrested. 410 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: He wasn't just arrested. They kept calling me all kinds 411 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: of dirty names and you child molester, and you rapist 412 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. And when they bent me over 413 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: to to strip searched me and check the cavities and 414 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: all for contraman, I was bending over and he took 415 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: his foot and he kicked me in the back and 416 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: smashed my head into the cement walk walls and literally 417 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: almost knocked me out. And I hit the ground and 418 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: he said, stand up, you so obia crime Stories with 419 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: Nancy grace. Guys, we were talking about a witch hunt 420 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: and Winnatchi, the so called apple capital of the world, 421 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: where you moved to keep your children safe. You were 422 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: hearing Rebecca Osborne, who was taken away from her father, 423 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: Pastor Robertson, and his wife Connie her mother and questioned 424 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: repeatedly as to whether her parents had sex male dust 425 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: at her. She gets taken to her grandparents, to her 426 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: grandmother's away from her parents. Can you imagine being thrown 427 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: in jail on false charges and being torn away from 428 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 1: your children. Take a listen to this. And then I 429 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: remember being at my grandma's house for a while, and 430 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: I remember every night when she took me in for bed. 431 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: You know, she'd be like, just remembered and pray to 432 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: God and his angels will be all around you. That 433 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: she always told me that every night, just pray to 434 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: God and his angels will be all around you. Sorry, okay, 435 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: I remember a cop knocked on a door and we're 436 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: looking for Rebecca and we know she's here. You've got 437 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: to give her up. It is clastic, she said to me, Avis, 438 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: just pray to God's angel's whole watch over you. So 439 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: at first, Rebecca while your mother and father are thrown 440 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: into jail for chamelestation, you go to your grandma's until 441 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: you're taken away from her. Where did you end up? 442 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: I ended up in a police station or CPS office. 443 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: I honestly can't remember which one it was. I just 444 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: remember cubicles and stuffed animals. I think it was honestly 445 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: Perez's office because Bob Perez was there and CPS worker 446 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: was there, and the brain question. Yeah, yeah, the brainwashing 447 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: instantly started. It wasn't question. When you say brainwashing, what 448 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: do you mean? What were you told or asked? I 449 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: was never asked anything. I was told everything. Being four 450 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: years old, I think that they just thought that they'd 451 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: get me to parrot everything that they wanted to say. 452 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: So it was we know your parents molested you. We 453 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: know that you had molestation go on at their church, 454 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 1: we know that all these other children were involved, and 455 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: we know that you've seen it and you just are 456 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: scared to say it. But it's okay. You can tell 457 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: everybody what's going on and then you'll hopefully get to 458 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: see your parents again. Was you know, always the carrot 459 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: that they'd dangle, you know, just say these things and 460 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, we'll get you back to your parents. But 461 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: it was never asked. It was always told. We were 462 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: literally told exactly what to say. Did you say, Rebecca, 463 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: you were four years old? Yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am, I 464 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: was four years old. I believe my children would say 465 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: anything to get back to their mother and father. I 466 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: really believe that much less four years old. Yeah, and 467 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: what did they ultimately have you say? Ultimately it was 468 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: alleged child abuse and molestation, and that things were happening 469 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: in the church. I know that it was just the 470 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: grace of God because I knew very clearly, even though 471 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: I was only four, I knew I was in an 472 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: unsafe situation. I knew that if I didn't tell these 473 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: people what they wanted to say, that I was never 474 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: going to see my parents. But I also knew that 475 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: if I told a lie, I was never going to 476 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: see my parents again. So it's kind of a catch 477 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: twenty two and you know, definitely a god thing that 478 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: I realized that at four years old. But every time 479 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: I went in for one of these sessions, I would 480 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: just kind of agree with them, be like, yep, okay, 481 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: let me now go to distinguished Professor doctor Elizabeth Loftus, 482 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: author of the Myth of Repressed Memory. Doctor Loftus, thank 483 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What do you make of 484 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: so many efforts to make these children remember being raped? 485 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: That what was going on not only with the investigators 486 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: but also with the so called therapists that we're trying 487 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: to extract these disposures. They were not giving the kids breaks. 488 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: They were not they were not taking no for an answer. 489 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: They were telling them what happened and insisting on what 490 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: happened before there'd been any mention out of the mouth 491 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: of the And then you do this with a four 492 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: year old, they are they are even more suggestible than 493 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: the older children. So you know, it's a it's a 494 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: recipe for disaster, you know, doctor Loftus. In all the 495 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: molestation cases I ever took to trial, I always asked 496 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: an open ended question, or even have a child draw 497 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: to me, draw picture to me for me what happened, 498 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: because I wanted to hear it in their words, not 499 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: my words. And I learned a lot by listening. Rebecca, 500 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: how many times do you think you said no, this 501 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: didn't happen every single time, every single time, And it 502 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: wasn't just it was multiple people. I mean, I had 503 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: moments where it was Bob Perez, the chief of police 504 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: at the time. I remember being CPS workers. I remember 505 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: it being my foster parents when they finally put me 506 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: into foster care after they put me in custody, and 507 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: it was a daily thing. If it wasn't one of 508 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: the persons, it was one of the other persons, and 509 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: I was adamant. I was like, no, it didn't happen. 510 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: But I will say that after an hour, two hours 511 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: of you know, these brainwashing sessions, I'd finally just be like, yep, 512 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: m okay, yep, whatever you say, just to kind of 513 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: get out of that situation. But ultimately, as you'll find out, 514 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: when it boiled down to me being really apt in 515 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: the courtroom, I flat out said no, and I'm not 516 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: gonna lie because I knew the big question in so 517 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: many people's minds is who is behind this. Take a listen. 518 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: He causes problems by crossing arms, puffing up his chest. 519 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: Obviously a reaction is let's get it on. Likes having 520 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: power over people. He appears to pick out people and 521 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: target them. Has the idea that people always have to 522 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: do what he tells them. All of the time, I'd 523 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: forgotten these is like wound up? Why are ready to spring? 524 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: His performance evaluation of a person who I wouldn't trust 525 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: in a position of such extreme power over people, power 526 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: and arrogance. Joining me now, Catherine Lawing, an author of 527 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: witch Hunt, a true story of social hysteria and abused justice, 528 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: the former public defender there and Pierce County, Washington. Catherine, 529 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Who was Perez? Detective 530 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: Perez and what motivated him and others that would not 531 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: stand up for what was right? Why? Well, first of all, 532 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: what you heard, what he was expressed was of the 533 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: performance evaluations he had, and that gave you a good 534 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: indication of who he was. He was actually volunteered with 535 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: the police for a while. He had a former incident 536 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: with his own child where he'd spent time in jail 537 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: over stealing a cigarette. Writer. I think he spent forty 538 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: five days or thereabouts in custody because of what was 539 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: a minor incident, And so when it came to children, 540 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: he had a very definite view of using his authority 541 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: to get what he wanted. He had minimal training, he 542 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: didn't have any training at all. When he's rotated into 543 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: the position, he rotated into the position, became a detective 544 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: while he was in the position, and then at some 545 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: point was going to rotate out that What do you 546 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: think was the motivation to coerce children into line? Well, 547 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: I don't doubt that he has the concern about children, 548 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: but he also had a lot of bias about this, 549 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: the people that were limited in intelligence and money and 550 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: so on in the community, and it started some theories 551 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: he had the power to do it. He said, I'm 552 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: no better than any other policeman. I I just took 553 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: the next step, and his next step was purely coercive. 554 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: Did you try and speak up? Did you try and 555 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: speak up? Catherine? Yeah, what I tried to do I 556 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: put together an investigative report, which ended up being about 557 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: two hundred pages. I didn't go to meetings and say 558 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: this was wrong, But what I did was document things. 559 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: I started out by reviewing all the records going back 560 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: years with some of the kids, especially the child who 561 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: was placed at his foster home. Katherine Lyon is the 562 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: author of a witch Hunt, A true story of social 563 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: hysteria and abused justice. A former public defender there in 564 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: Pierce County, Washington, and let me ask you, Robbie and Connie, 565 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: how long were you in jail? Well, it was like 566 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: it was like it was like, I think around four 567 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: and a half month. Let me go to Rebecca Osborne, 568 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: your daughter, Rebecca, how has it affected your life being 569 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: taken away from your mother and your father, even being 570 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: part of the investigation against them, Being pulled away from 571 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: your grandmother and put in foster care. I was very 572 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: traumatizing in the moment. I do have to always just 573 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: preach I had this hedge of protection. I always said 574 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: that I can feel my parents praying for my protections 575 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: because although all of this stuff was going on, I 576 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: still felt say to Elizabeth Loftus, doctor Loftus, I've spoken 577 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: with then children now adult victims that bear the guilt 578 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: of having put their parents behind bars because of forced statements, 579 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 1: allegations of rape and molestation. I really don't know how 580 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: you can ever get past that self loathing of doing 581 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: that to your parents. Well, it's interesting, It's it's so 582 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: many years his wife were acquitted eventually, so many years 583 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: and lots of litigation that followed. So many years since 584 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: they've been free, and you can still feel the pain 585 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: in Rebecca just it may never go away. For her, 586 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that it will ever go away. To 587 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: Tom Grant, it's really hard for me to take in 588 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 1: that even when these children try to recant and say 589 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: this didn't happen, no one would listen. And that's one 590 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: of the huge problems of this case is that there 591 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: was only one answer that the investigators would accept, and 592 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: that was the answer that they yes, the children had 593 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: been abused, and yes they were they were hurting, and 594 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 1: as you've seen in other cases, that they should feel 595 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: good when their parents go to jail. And that's that 596 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: is to me, is so disturbing. It must create such 597 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: a huge cognitive dissonance and children that I don't know 598 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: how they can deal with it. And I see the 599 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 1: trauma existing years later, Years and years later, Tom guys 600 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: Pastor Robertson had permanent hearing damage because of the beating 601 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: he took behind bars. I want to tell you about 602 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: the Robertson Recovery PayPal to help them, to donate to 603 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 1: help this family after all they have been through. As 604 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: we go forward, we are looking in depth into what 605 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 1: happened to the families there in Wenatchee. The families that 606 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: are sent to jail that are torn away from their children. 607 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: We're following each and every one of them. Next, a 608 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: shocking twist in the Valley of Sin. I'm Nancy Grace 609 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,