WEBVTT - The Barriers to Reform

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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<v Speaker 1>where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Noah Feldman. The death of George Floyd set off

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<v Speaker 1>demonstrations across the country calling for fundamental reforms of policing.

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<v Speaker 1>Since then, activists and politicians are trying to give substance

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<v Speaker 1>to the idea of change and reform. Democratic members of

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<v Speaker 1>the House of Representatives are in the process of proposing

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<v Speaker 1>reform legislation. Meanwhile, local officials are calling for different sets

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<v Speaker 1>or reforms, including in some cases, the dismantling or defunding

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<v Speaker 1>of the police. To discuss both what needs to be

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<v Speaker 1>done to address police brutality and the capacity of reform,

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<v Speaker 1>more generally, to make meaningful change, I'm joined by Paul Butler.

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<v Speaker 1>Paul as a professor at the Georgetown University Law Center.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a former federal prosecutor and the author of the

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<v Speaker 1>extraordinary book Chokehold Policing Black Man. He's also one of

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<v Speaker 1>the leading scholars in the United States working on the

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<v Speaker 1>confluence of policing, criminal law, and race. Paul, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for joining me. Let me start by asking

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<v Speaker 1>you you're in DC, where you teach and live. Have

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<v Speaker 1>you been out in the protests? I had to go

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<v Speaker 1>on Saturday. I joined multicultural, multi generational, huge group of

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<v Speaker 1>people as close to the White House as the Coward

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<v Speaker 1>in Chief would allow us to get. What was so

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<v Speaker 1>moving was the spirit of the crowd. People are fed up.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hoping that this is different, this is the movement

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<v Speaker 1>and not the moment. But unfortunately I've had that hope

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<v Speaker 1>before and been disappointed. You and other people of our

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<v Speaker 1>generation remember the la riots, and then we remember Ferguson

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<v Speaker 1>and then lots of other specific events, Eric Garner's death,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, which is one of the things that inspired

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<v Speaker 1>your book with the prescient and terrifying titled Chokehold. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think, in fact that the feeling that a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people have right now that this time is different

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<v Speaker 1>with respect to reform is probable? I think you posed

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<v Speaker 1>the question perfectly. I think the feeling that people have

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<v Speaker 1>is different in the sense that many people now understand

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<v Speaker 1>the scale of the problem. This week, we've seen countless

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<v Speaker 1>acts of police brutality. When they're policing marches to protest brutality,

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<v Speaker 1>it's almost like they can't help themselves. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>that now people get people understand, but what folks may

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<v Speaker 1>not understand as well as they do the problem, the

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<v Speaker 1>barriers to challenging, the barriers to transformation. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>see as the greatest barriers to transformation? Starting with the

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<v Speaker 1>reforms that I would say are kind of concrete reforms

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<v Speaker 1>anti brutality reforms, reorganization of police departments. Will come later

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<v Speaker 1>to the more grand reform suggestions that some people are

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<v Speaker 1>making about defunding and abolishing. But starting with the ones

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<v Speaker 1>that I might call the kind of the more low

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<v Speaker 1>hanging fruit, what are the primary barriers to those going

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<v Speaker 1>into effect. Well, one of the biggest is unions and

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<v Speaker 1>other organizations that represent police that consistently resist change, even

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<v Speaker 1>common sense reform. Percent of the police officers in Minneapolis

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<v Speaker 1>live in the city, just seven percent. We know that

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<v Speaker 1>when law enforcement officers are neighbors in the communities that

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<v Speaker 1>they serve and protect, they're more invested in those communities,

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<v Speaker 1>they're more accountable, and unfortunately that low number seven percent

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<v Speaker 1>is consistent with the low numbers in many urban police departments.

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<v Speaker 1>How do cops get away with this? They get away

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<v Speaker 1>with it because of their powerful collective bargaining organizations and

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<v Speaker 1>other groups that represent them. It's not just with residency requirements.

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<v Speaker 1>Virtually every proposal for reform gets squelched by these all

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<v Speaker 1>powerful organizations. What are some other barriers to reform? The

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats probably won't get adopted under the Trump administration, but

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<v Speaker 1>they propose fairly comprehensive reforms coming from the federal level

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<v Speaker 1>that the unions couldn't technically block, although the unions will

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<v Speaker 1>probably oppose them. What are the other barriers that are

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<v Speaker 1>out there? One of the barriers, well, let's not say

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<v Speaker 1>one of the barriers, let's say eighteen thousand of the barriers.

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<v Speaker 1>So they're eighteen thousand different police departments in the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're eighteen thousand different ways of policing. I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to be testifying at the House Judiciary Committee hearing on

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<v Speaker 1>this bill, and one of the issues is how Congress

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<v Speaker 1>can use its authority to help these local police departments

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<v Speaker 1>serve and protect their citizens more effectively. It turns out

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<v Speaker 1>that while Congress has the power of the purse, it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have a lot of direct authority over departments other

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<v Speaker 1>than by allocating funds or withholding funds. If these departments

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<v Speaker 1>refused to be accountable and transparent. You know, it's this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of traditional tension between local control and civil rights

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<v Speaker 1>and human rights for people of color. What will the

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<v Speaker 1>main thrust of your testimony be. I mean, the fact

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<v Speaker 1>you're testifying suggests that you're at least broadly in support

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<v Speaker 1>of the proposals. Well, I'm there to talk about what

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<v Speaker 1>I've learned in twenty five years of thinking about these issues,

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<v Speaker 1>and during some of that time working as a prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 1>So as a prosecutor, one of my specialties was corrupt

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement officers. And when I look at what happens

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<v Speaker 1>when police officers are charged with crimes, most times those

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<v Speaker 1>officers are not convicted. So in the last fifteen or

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years, there have been roughly one hundred cops who've

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<v Speaker 1>been charged with murder. The majority of those officers walked,

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<v Speaker 1>the charges were dismissed, or they were found not guilty.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe a quarter of those officers who were found guilty

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<v Speaker 1>of lesser included offenses like manslaughter or negligent homicide. So

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<v Speaker 1>roughly a hundred officers charged with homicide, roughly seven convicted

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<v Speaker 1>of murder. We know that US cops kill about one

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people a year. I say we know, really, I

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<v Speaker 1>should say, we think we estimate. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that this bill would do would be to require the

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<v Speaker 1>federal to maintain accurate data about police use of force.

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<v Speaker 1>The FBI has been supposed to do that for the

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<v Speaker 1>last five years, but unfortunately they just have it. And

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<v Speaker 1>so if this bill is passed, getting accurate data on

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<v Speaker 1>stop and frisks on police use of force would go

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<v Speaker 1>a long way in helping explain the scope of the

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<v Speaker 1>problem and letting us take a closer look at the

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<v Speaker 1>race dispurities that we know are there. Paul, One of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that's been happening in the last you know,

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<v Speaker 1>ten days or so, is that the protests have begun

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<v Speaker 1>to include not just calls to stop killing black people,

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<v Speaker 1>but also a policy recommendation or demand to defund, abolish,

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<v Speaker 1>or dismantle police departments. Please give me your reaction to

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<v Speaker 1>that development. When people talk about defunding police departments, there's

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<v Speaker 1>not a consensus now and exactly what they mean, what

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<v Speaker 1>I think of what the concern is. Remember that when

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<v Speaker 1>people call nine one one, often having someone respond with

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<v Speaker 1>a gun and the power to arrest makes things worse,

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<v Speaker 1>not better. Sometimes people call nine one one when they're

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<v Speaker 1>experiencing a mental health crisis, a breakdown in a relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>a family problem, or a medical problem, and the men

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<v Speaker 1>and women in blue with guns in those instances aren't

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<v Speaker 1>the most effective first responders. So what I think this

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<v Speaker 1>I idea of reinvesting some of the money that goes

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<v Speaker 1>to the police in community services, in healthcare, in schools.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that that's a more holistic way of keeping

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<v Speaker 1>communities safe. So the people I know who are enthusiastic

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<v Speaker 1>about defunding police departments understand that public safety has got

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<v Speaker 1>to be paramount. But what they also understand is they

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<v Speaker 1>are more effective ways of keeping families whole and neighborhoods

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<v Speaker 1>secure than our current approach. And ironically, when I talk

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<v Speaker 1>to the range of my friends who are in different

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<v Speaker 1>areas of the workforce in the criminal legal process, some

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<v Speaker 1>of the people who most agree with the concerns that

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<v Speaker 1>the protesters are expressing our cops police officers are the

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<v Speaker 1>first to say, people call us for a whole range

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<v Speaker 1>of problems that we're not equipped to address. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think a lot of author steers well, they might have

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<v Speaker 1>legitimate concerns about what it means to die vest from

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<v Speaker 1>the departments that are paying their salaries. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>they will embrace the hope that there's a broader range

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<v Speaker 1>of services from the state when people are in danger

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<v Speaker 1>than just during somebody under the jail. Do you have

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<v Speaker 1>any concern that the rhetoric of dismantle or abolish plays

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<v Speaker 1>into the hands of Donald Trump, who can then treat

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<v Speaker 1>out and say again and again in his run for office,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, we can't abolish or dismantle the police, and

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<v Speaker 1>the Democrats are behind that. He can say that falsely

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<v Speaker 1>and use that to try to win over middle of

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<v Speaker 1>the road voters who otherwise seem to be very fed

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<v Speaker 1>up with Donald Trump according to the polls, but who

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<v Speaker 1>are of course crucially important to the election in November.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm certain that the President and some other Republicans will

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<v Speaker 1>look at some of the demands from this nationwide movement

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<v Speaker 1>against police brutality and highlight some of those demands to

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<v Speaker 1>suggest that they're extreme or anti cop. That's not new.

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<v Speaker 1>For the last fifty years, almost every presidential candidate has

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<v Speaker 1>exploited anxiety about law and order. The subtext is anxiety

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<v Speaker 1>about African American men and Latino men, and sometimes that's

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<v Speaker 1>actually the text not the subtext. So the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>the president will make some of the demands political and

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<v Speaker 1>a campaign issue is to be expected. We know that

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump has already won the white foe statistically, most

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<v Speaker 1>white people are going to vote for him. That's been

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<v Speaker 1>true of every Republican candidate since the election of JFK.

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<v Speaker 1>And so rather than worry about kind of the white

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<v Speaker 1>body politic as a whole, we're I'm focused is that

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<v Speaker 1>forty three forty four percent that the Democratic candidate has

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<v Speaker 1>to get in order to win. And when I look

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<v Speaker 1>at who's marching. Oh, one of my African American buddies

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<v Speaker 1>said to me, almost as a critique, that he'd driven

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<v Speaker 1>by one of the protest rallies in DC and most

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<v Speaker 1>of the people he saw, most of the protesters were white.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's a really good thing. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>now we're assembling on this issue the kind of broad

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<v Speaker 1>based coalition that we need to create change. And so,

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<v Speaker 1>just like in the civil rights movement in the nineteen sixties,

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<v Speaker 1>when a lot of people from the faith community, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people from labor unions, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>who were in allied movements like the Women's movement, the

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<v Speaker 1>LGBT movement came out. I think we're seeing that now,

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<v Speaker 1>so that fifty three fifty four percent of white folks

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<v Speaker 1>who just don't get it, or who aren't concerned, or

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<v Speaker 1>who think that basically the victims of police violence deserve

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<v Speaker 1>what they get. No, we're not going to reach them,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think that there are many other people of

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<v Speaker 1>good will who will rise to this occasion. We'll be

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<v Speaker 1>right back. There's a lot of talk among white liberals

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<v Speaker 1>about what the right way is to show support for

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<v Speaker 1>Black Lives Matter, showing respect for the leadership that BLM

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<v Speaker 1>has taken and respect for African American voices while simultaneously

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<v Speaker 1>expressing support and connection. Do you have a view on

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<v Speaker 1>what the right approaches in that subtle balance for white

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<v Speaker 1>people who are supportive of BLM. I have a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of ideas. So in my book Choco Policing Black Men,

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<v Speaker 1>I suggest arrange of things that folks can do. So

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<v Speaker 1>it can be as simple as contributing to a bail fund.

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<v Speaker 1>It could be coming out and joining a march. I

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<v Speaker 1>have a bunch of students who are future lawyers, and

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<v Speaker 1>have this future lawyer uneasy mix of wokeness and professional ambition,

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<v Speaker 1>who ask should I go to a protest? And I

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunately told one student yes, about the protests in Lafayette

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<v Speaker 1>Square or last Monday, I told her, as long as

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<v Speaker 1>you followed the rules and left before the curfew should

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<v Speaker 1>be fine. As the whole world knows. That turned out

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<v Speaker 1>not to be true. But I do think that showing

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<v Speaker 1>up that makes a difference, and particularly for people who

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<v Speaker 1>aren't of color, and for people who aren't black, to

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<v Speaker 1>show that you understand that this is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most important human rights movements and civil rights movements of

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<v Speaker 1>our time, that makes a huge difference. And that same

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<v Speaker 1>section in my book have a subsection called for run

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<v Speaker 1>alway Slaves only, and that is about this this question.

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<v Speaker 1>I asked myself sometime like back in the day, what

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<v Speaker 1>would I have done during slavery? I hope that I

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<v Speaker 1>would have been a run away slave or been one

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<v Speaker 1>of the enslave people who led an uprising. Reality is

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<v Speaker 1>that most people, including most enslaved people, didn't do that.

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<v Speaker 1>And then during the civil rights movement, I hope that

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<v Speaker 1>I would have marched with Martin or ticket to the

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<v Speaker 1>streets with Malcolm. And the reality is most folks, including

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<v Speaker 1>most African American people didn't do that, and the movement

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<v Speaker 1>for Black lives. The question is, if you want to

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<v Speaker 1>know what you would have done back in the day,

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<v Speaker 1>ask yourself, what are you doing right now? And so

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's a question that we all need to

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<v Speaker 1>ask ourselves, know in terms of the work that we do.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I wonder, like the day after Kamatsu was decided, well,

0:18:39.436 --> 0:18:44.076
<v Speaker 1>what was the conversation like in the Georgetown Law faculty

0:18:44.236 --> 0:18:49.476
<v Speaker 1>lounge where the Harvard Law School faculty dining room. So

0:18:49.636 --> 0:18:52.636
<v Speaker 1>I think we all want to rise to this occasion.

0:18:52.676 --> 0:18:55.756
<v Speaker 1>We all want to want to meet this moment, you know,

0:18:55.836 --> 0:19:00.436
<v Speaker 1>subject to our own kind of personal capacity. And so

0:19:00.676 --> 0:19:03.996
<v Speaker 1>for runaway slaves in this context, again you could talk

0:19:04.036 --> 0:19:12.356
<v Speaker 1>about abolition. You can practice civil disobedience, you can you know,

0:19:12.516 --> 0:19:18.716
<v Speaker 1>be a leader in the transformation that we need. I

0:19:18.756 --> 0:19:21.236
<v Speaker 1>think you're absolutely right. And you know, in response to

0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:24.156
<v Speaker 1>your point about how did law professors, you know our

0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:27.836
<v Speaker 1>job respond, probably most didn't say much. There was a

0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:31.276
<v Speaker 1>famous Larva article that came out almost immediately called something

0:19:31.316 --> 0:19:35.636
<v Speaker 1>like the Japanese internment cases a disaster. So there were

0:19:35.676 --> 0:19:38.156
<v Speaker 1>there were some voices saying, you know, this isn't right.

0:19:38.716 --> 0:19:41.236
<v Speaker 1>But I think the mainstream, as you say, had the

0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:44.116
<v Speaker 1>view of, you know, loyalty to the Roosevelt administration, and

0:19:44.676 --> 0:19:47.356
<v Speaker 1>indeed that was true of the liberal Supreme Court justices

0:19:47.436 --> 0:19:51.516
<v Speaker 1>who decided the Quotamatsu decision. The FDR appointees were trying

0:19:51.556 --> 0:19:54.196
<v Speaker 1>to be loyal to the president, and they also believed

0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:57.796
<v Speaker 1>mistakenly that another case decided at the same time called

0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:01.236
<v Speaker 1>Endo would effectively close the internment camps. And they said, well,

0:20:01.236 --> 0:20:03.796
<v Speaker 1>you know, pragmatically, it'll be fine. So yeah, I mean,

0:20:03.796 --> 0:20:06.756
<v Speaker 1>the point you're raising is very powerful. It's extremely powerful.

0:20:07.556 --> 0:20:08.796
<v Speaker 1>If we want to know what we would have done,

0:20:08.796 --> 0:20:12.996
<v Speaker 1>then the question is now, what will we do now? Paul?

0:20:13.076 --> 0:20:15.036
<v Speaker 1>What am I not asking you that I should be

0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:19.996
<v Speaker 1>asking you in this moment? Is reform enough? And the

0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:27.036
<v Speaker 1>answer is no. So when we think about different expressions

0:20:27.036 --> 0:20:31.436
<v Speaker 1>of exactly what the problem is, I think people have

0:20:31.836 --> 0:20:36.956
<v Speaker 1>four kind of competing ideas, maybe some overlap. Some people

0:20:37.116 --> 0:20:42.676
<v Speaker 1>say the problem is brothers, it's the way that we

0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:45.836
<v Speaker 1>perform masculinity. If we would just pull up our pants,

0:20:46.476 --> 0:20:49.436
<v Speaker 1>we wouldn't have to worry about being stopped in fisk

0:20:49.516 --> 0:20:52.716
<v Speaker 1>or were shot by the police. Some other folks say

0:20:52.716 --> 0:20:58.276
<v Speaker 1>the problem is under enforcement of law, and there the

0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:03.156
<v Speaker 1>remedy is stopping fisk more law. The third framing, I

0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:07.276
<v Speaker 1>think is the one that has the most reach. It's

0:21:07.316 --> 0:21:10.796
<v Speaker 1>the liberal idea that the problem as a relationship thing

0:21:10.956 --> 0:21:14.556
<v Speaker 1>between African Americans communities are coloring the police. If we

0:21:14.556 --> 0:21:18.036
<v Speaker 1>would just try to see each other's side, it's almost

0:21:18.076 --> 0:21:20.876
<v Speaker 1>like we're calling a bad marriage and we just have

0:21:20.996 --> 0:21:26.276
<v Speaker 1>to come together. There the remedy is things like body cameras,

0:21:27.076 --> 0:21:31.676
<v Speaker 1>pattern and practice investigations of local police departments, better training.

0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:36.636
<v Speaker 1>This is the liberal frame. And then finally, some folks

0:21:36.876 --> 0:21:44.396
<v Speaker 1>diagnose the issue as white supremacy and mass incarceration and

0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:51.876
<v Speaker 1>brutal prisons and violent policing are just symptoms. And the

0:21:51.996 --> 0:21:56.596
<v Speaker 1>concern there is if you just fix the symptom, you're

0:21:56.636 --> 0:22:00.196
<v Speaker 1>not treating the disease. So even if we could make

0:22:00.236 --> 0:22:02.636
<v Speaker 1>the police do better, then it's just going to mutate.

0:22:02.796 --> 0:22:09.796
<v Speaker 1>The way in this telling, white supremacy devolved from slavery

0:22:10.116 --> 0:22:13.276
<v Speaker 1>to the old gem crow to the New Germ crow.

0:22:14.276 --> 0:22:17.556
<v Speaker 1>So when I think about my experiences as an African

0:22:17.556 --> 0:22:24.596
<v Speaker 1>American man, as a prosecutor, and as a scholar, I'm

0:22:24.636 --> 0:22:29.836
<v Speaker 1>most persuaded by that last critique, So I think we

0:22:29.916 --> 0:22:34.716
<v Speaker 1>have to think beyond reform. I think reform is hugely

0:22:34.836 --> 0:22:39.676
<v Speaker 1>important because what reform means that, in the short term,

0:22:39.756 --> 0:22:43.796
<v Speaker 1>the police kill fewer people, and they beat up fewer people,

0:22:44.596 --> 0:22:49.156
<v Speaker 1>and they arrest fewer black and brown people in situations

0:22:49.156 --> 0:22:53.156
<v Speaker 1>in which they wouldn't arrest white folks, and so reformers

0:22:53.236 --> 0:22:57.396
<v Speaker 1>literally life saving. But at the end of the day,

0:22:57.436 --> 0:23:01.116
<v Speaker 1>I think we have to think more broadly about transformation.

0:23:02.236 --> 0:23:06.356
<v Speaker 1>I want to close by asking you about that grand problem,

0:23:06.396 --> 0:23:09.556
<v Speaker 1>which can be called white supremacy and then systemic I

0:23:09.596 --> 0:23:12.876
<v Speaker 1>think could be described as the application of the idea

0:23:12.876 --> 0:23:16.076
<v Speaker 1>of white supremacy. White supremacies the idea, and systemic racism

0:23:16.116 --> 0:23:18.876
<v Speaker 1>is the consequence of that in the real world that

0:23:18.916 --> 0:23:21.636
<v Speaker 1>we actually live in. I know a lot of people

0:23:21.676 --> 0:23:25.276
<v Speaker 1>who are sympathetic to that conclusion I think I am myself,

0:23:25.996 --> 0:23:29.596
<v Speaker 1>and who really worry about what that means for the

0:23:29.676 --> 0:23:34.996
<v Speaker 1>reform effort overall, because they think that situational reforms are good,

0:23:35.076 --> 0:23:38.396
<v Speaker 1>they're desirable, but they're just depressed about the fact that

0:23:39.036 --> 0:23:42.596
<v Speaker 1>years after the Civil rights movement, we're still not that

0:23:42.716 --> 0:23:48.356
<v Speaker 1>close to even a set of proposed solutions that would

0:23:48.396 --> 0:23:52.676
<v Speaker 1>seem to remedy this that even reparations would not potentially

0:23:52.716 --> 0:23:55.956
<v Speaker 1>have the capacity to make the structural and systemic change

0:23:56.516 --> 0:24:00.156
<v Speaker 1>to shift racial equality in the United States into something

0:24:00.396 --> 0:24:03.116
<v Speaker 1>viable and real. What do you say to that kind

0:24:03.156 --> 0:24:07.996
<v Speaker 1>of concern that sometimes in some people's minds veers into pessimism.

0:24:08.156 --> 0:24:15.516
<v Speaker 1>I get it. I'm frequently pessimistic myself. What I'm encouraged

0:24:15.556 --> 0:24:20.636
<v Speaker 1>by is kind of the creativity I see, the energy

0:24:20.796 --> 0:24:23.796
<v Speaker 1>that I see in this moment, that it's making me

0:24:24.596 --> 0:24:31.996
<v Speaker 1>pessimistically optimistic. Sometimes I get almost corny. I get, you know,

0:24:32.196 --> 0:24:35.956
<v Speaker 1>proud of you know what black folks have been able

0:24:35.996 --> 0:24:40.516
<v Speaker 1>to accomplish in this country, how much we've given in

0:24:40.636 --> 0:24:45.196
<v Speaker 1>terms of culture, science, government. We're the people who invented

0:24:45.836 --> 0:24:49.796
<v Speaker 1>jazz and hip hop and rock and roll and gospel.

0:24:49.916 --> 0:24:53.636
<v Speaker 1>And then I go all American and think, well, gee,

0:24:53.676 --> 0:24:57.556
<v Speaker 1>this is the country that gave the world the Worldwide

0:24:57.676 --> 0:25:04.316
<v Speaker 1>Web and Amazon and Google. And then I think, well,

0:25:04.356 --> 0:25:06.516
<v Speaker 1>if we ask what is it that we expect the

0:25:06.556 --> 0:25:10.836
<v Speaker 1>criminal legal process to do, which is to keep us

0:25:10.876 --> 0:25:16.316
<v Speaker 1>safe and to make people who've caused harm responsible, surely

0:25:16.436 --> 0:25:20.556
<v Speaker 1>we can find ways to do that that don't evolve.

0:25:20.796 --> 0:25:25.836
<v Speaker 1>Cages don't evolve the police pointing guns at people. That

0:25:26.516 --> 0:25:29.716
<v Speaker 1>don't result in the US having five percent of the

0:25:29.716 --> 0:25:32.956
<v Speaker 1>world's population and twenty five percent of the world's image.

0:25:32.996 --> 0:25:36.996
<v Speaker 1>I just think we can use our creativity, our ingenuity,

0:25:37.836 --> 0:25:43.156
<v Speaker 1>or know how to come up with better ways to

0:25:43.356 --> 0:25:46.916
<v Speaker 1>be safe. What I think is, you know, the most

0:25:46.956 --> 0:25:51.436
<v Speaker 1>tragic one of the most tragic words on a ten

0:25:51.476 --> 0:25:55.836
<v Speaker 1>minute videotape full of tragic words, the videotape of the

0:25:55.956 --> 0:26:01.676
<v Speaker 1>police crushing the life out of George Floyd, some of

0:26:01.676 --> 0:26:06.636
<v Speaker 1>the most tragic words come from a bystander who, as

0:26:06.676 --> 0:26:12.716
<v Speaker 1>he's watching sets to the cop he's human, bro. But

0:26:12.956 --> 0:26:18.876
<v Speaker 1>to these four officers, mister Floyd was not human. And

0:26:18.876 --> 0:26:21.916
<v Speaker 1>when I think, how do you deal with that problem, right,

0:26:22.756 --> 0:26:26.756
<v Speaker 1>how do you deal with policing that seems designed to

0:26:26.916 --> 0:26:31.876
<v Speaker 1>enforce the dehumanization of black folks? Then I understand the

0:26:31.916 --> 0:26:36.676
<v Speaker 1>problem is much deeper than our criminal legal process. But

0:26:36.756 --> 0:26:38.556
<v Speaker 1>I have to hope at the end of the day

0:26:38.596 --> 0:26:41.636
<v Speaker 1>that what Martin Luther King said was right when he

0:26:41.676 --> 0:26:48.196
<v Speaker 1>said the moral arc of the universe leans towards justice.

0:26:49.116 --> 0:26:53.836
<v Speaker 1>I have to hope that that's right. Paul, thank you

0:26:53.916 --> 0:26:57.596
<v Speaker 1>for your clarity and your voice, and thank you for

0:26:57.676 --> 0:27:01.596
<v Speaker 1>being crucial to the diagnosis and also for being part

0:27:01.596 --> 0:27:04.236
<v Speaker 1>of our efforts to find a cure. Thank you for

0:27:04.676 --> 0:27:08.756
<v Speaker 1>devoting your podcast to this important issue. It's always a pleasure,

0:27:08.796 --> 0:27:13.356
<v Speaker 1>no pleasure, Thanks Paul. Talking to Paul, I walked away

0:27:13.396 --> 0:27:15.756
<v Speaker 1>with the sense that I always have in talking to him,

0:27:15.796 --> 0:27:19.636
<v Speaker 1>of being in the presence of an extremely clear, rational,

0:27:19.956 --> 0:27:24.636
<v Speaker 1>analytic thinker addressing some of the most intractable and terrifying

0:27:24.716 --> 0:27:28.796
<v Speaker 1>problems of our times. Paul is also a powerful moral voice.

0:27:29.356 --> 0:27:31.996
<v Speaker 1>One crucial thing I take away from my conversation with

0:27:32.076 --> 0:27:34.156
<v Speaker 1>him is the statement that if you want to ask

0:27:34.196 --> 0:27:37.356
<v Speaker 1>yourself what would I have done during slavery? What would

0:27:37.356 --> 0:27:39.636
<v Speaker 1>I have done during the civil rights movement? You can

0:27:39.676 --> 0:27:41.876
<v Speaker 1>answer that question by looking at yourself in the mirror

0:27:41.876 --> 0:27:46.556
<v Speaker 1>and asking what am I doing? Now? Make sure to

0:27:46.556 --> 0:27:50.476
<v Speaker 1>follow Paul's testimony before the Judiciary Committee. We will continue

0:27:50.516 --> 0:27:54.636
<v Speaker 1>to follow the pressing question of police reforms in policy

0:27:54.876 --> 0:27:57.836
<v Speaker 1>and in principle until the next time I speak to you.

0:27:58.316 --> 0:28:04.796
<v Speaker 1>Be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep background is

0:28:04.796 --> 0:28:07.996
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia

0:28:08.036 --> 0:28:11.476
<v Speaker 1>Jane Cott, with research help from zooe Win and mastering

0:28:11.516 --> 0:28:15.956
<v Speaker 1>by Jason Gambrel and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon.

0:28:16.516 --> 0:28:19.836
<v Speaker 1>Our theme music is composed by Luis GERA special thanks

0:28:19.836 --> 0:28:23.556
<v Speaker 1>to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel.

0:28:24.276 --> 0:28:27.196
<v Speaker 1>I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a regular column for

0:28:27.276 --> 0:28:30.716
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at Bloomberg dot com

0:28:30.756 --> 0:28:35.036
<v Speaker 1>slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go

0:28:35.116 --> 0:28:39.316
<v Speaker 1>to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. And one last thing,

0:28:39.756 --> 0:28:42.916
<v Speaker 1>I just wrote a book called The Arab Winter, a Tragedy.

0:28:43.276 --> 0:28:45.236
<v Speaker 1>I would be delighted if you checked it out. You

0:28:45.236 --> 0:28:46.876
<v Speaker 1>can always let me know what you think on Twitter

0:28:47.116 --> 0:28:50.116
<v Speaker 1>about this episode, or the book or anything else. My

0:28:50.156 --> 0:28:53.836
<v Speaker 1>handle is Noah R. Feldman. This is deep background