1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: so great to have you here. Back for another episode. 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: Today we welcome back one of our favorite, my favorite guests. 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: She has been on the show so many times. She 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: is one of the global experts on attachment style relationships 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: how to find healthy love. She's written two books, she 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: has coached thousands of people, and has done more research 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: on this than probably any other person. The other day, 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I got an email from her about this new theory 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: that she's been working on. It's called the six Stages 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: of a Relationship, and I just knew we had to 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: talk about it because it is incredibly accurate. First of all, 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: it is so accurate how it represents almost every relationship 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in. And I also think that learning 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: about these six stages, especially in our twenties, what they represent, 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: what they mean, could help us all be more realistic 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: about love and also understand the highs and lows of 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: dating and the highs and lows of devotion and being 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: with somebody long term. Without further ado, his hye is 24 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: Tys Gibson. Welcome to the Psychology of your Twenties Again. 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. You're one of my favorite 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: people to chat with and join podcasts with and just 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: honestly catch up with. So it's really nice to be here. 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: No, it's so lovely. Every time you come on the show, 29 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: and you've been on a couple of times, you're like 30 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: my go to attachment style expert. I love your in 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: depth knowledge. I love how you talk about these topics. 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: I've kind of spoiled my next question, which is tell 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: the listeners a little bit about yourself and what kind 34 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: of work you do. 35 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I to your point. I definitely work in 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: the relationship space by trade. I am a counselor and 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: coach and I've been in the space for quite a while, 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: no more than a decade, and I tend to focus 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: a lot in the attachment style space. And I think 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: that comes from growing up with a fearful avoidant attachment 41 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 2: style myself and really pouring into trying to understand how 42 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: to heal and I put a huge emphasis in focus 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: not just on like understanding things and intellectualizing things, but 44 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 2: actually rewiring because the more we can really dig into 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: the subconscious and rewire our patterns and leverage neuroplasticity, that's 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 2: where you get to see the real healing and change 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: and growth. And so that was something that helped me 48 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: on my journey so much and something that I'm always 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: really excited to talk about and share with other people. 50 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: And you do, like, just the way you talk about 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: it is incredible. And if you haven't listened to our 52 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: other episodes, I think we did one on anxious attachment 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: and avoidant very much recommend going and listening to those, 54 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: two of my favorite episodes that we've ever done, to 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: be honest. But today we're gonna talk about this I 56 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: guess new theory that you've come up with, this new 57 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: concept that you told me about, and I was like, 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: how come no one has ever shared this or talked 59 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: about this or come up with this before. It is 60 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: the sixth stage theory of relationships. You know, I adore 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: a theory. I adore like any kind of succinct explanation 62 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: of like human phenomena. Can you just like quickly explain 63 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: this one for me before we go into each stage individually. 64 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Yes, So the theory is essentially that every relationship has 65 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: six stages. And I saw this through working with tens 66 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: of thousands of clients, that there's essentially a life cycle 67 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: of every relationship, and it starts at a high level. 68 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: We'll talk about them in detail, for sure, but at 69 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: a high level. The first stage is the dating stage, 70 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: and the intention of this stage is to really vet 71 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: and get to know somebody and like see if they're 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: a good fit for you and vice versa. And then 73 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: when we make a commitment and we move into the 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: honeymoon stage, and this is the stage where essentially we 75 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: have a rose colored glasses on and we're all excited 76 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 2: and everything feels great and it's easy and it's flowing. 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: But we're usually showing ourselves still with a good bit 78 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: of conditions. We're on our best behavior, we're still people pleasing, 79 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 2: maybe a little bit more than we otherwise would. We're 80 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: not as comfortable, and then we let down the mask 81 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: and get comfortable, and that actually is what draws us 82 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: into the power struggle stage. And the power struggle stage 83 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: you'll see where statistically most people break up. But the 84 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: crazy part is that if you don't realize that in 85 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: the long grand scheme of an entire relationship, like if 86 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: you're going to marry somebody and be with them for decades, 87 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: perhaps the dating, honeymoon, power struggle are such a small 88 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: snapshot of a whole relationship. And if we don't ever 89 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: have a relationship that makes beyond the power struggle, then 90 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: people think that the whole relationship is like this high 91 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: of infatuation, this low of fighting and more arguing, and 92 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: it breaks up. And the reality is that the power 93 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: struggle stage is actually something that presents this really unique 94 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: and powerful opportunity to know each other more deeply, to 95 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: work through conflict, to learn, to hash things out, to 96 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: learn each other, and to get into a rhythm. And 97 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: if we do that, we then progress into future stages, 98 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: which become the rhythm stage, the devotion stage, and eventually 99 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: the everlasting stage, which is where we have this true 100 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: and deep sense of lasting contentment in the relationship. And 101 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: so we'll boil into all of the stages, of course, 102 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: in a lot of detail, but the theory essentially is 103 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: rooted in the fact that every relationship, point blank period 104 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: goes through this life cycle, and there are specific rights 105 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: of passage that we need to move from one stage 106 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: to the next. So in order to continuously progress, there's 107 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 2: actually things we have to learn and get good at 108 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 2: with each other. And if we don't learn those rights 109 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: of passage, we'll actually get stuck in a certain stage. 110 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 2: And the longer we're stuck in a stage without progressing, 111 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: the more likely the relationship is to end. So what 112 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: I find to be really net meaningful because if people 113 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: are struggling in relationships and they never really have a 114 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: lasting relationship, it's always a year or two years they 115 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: break up, you know, things like this, and they're looking 116 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: for something longer lasting and more prominent for them. Or 117 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: if somebody is in a stage now listening perhaps and 118 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: they're like, I feel like I'm stuck in one of 119 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: these stages and everything's rocky and we're not progressing. It's 120 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 2: much less of the time that you have the wrong 121 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: partner and much more of the time that you instead 122 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: have the wrong tools and the wrong behaviors and relationships 123 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 2: that are actually keeping you stuck and not allowing you 124 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 2: to progress. And I would make a really strong argument, 125 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: having seen this firsthand, that so often people are like, 126 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: oh maybe I'm not compatible with somebody. Oh my gosh, 127 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: what if it doesn't work out and they feel stuck. 128 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: And actually, once they get the certain tools that they 129 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: need to unlock the next stage, things move forward much 130 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: more effortlessly. So that's essentially the theory in a nutshell. 131 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: Which I love. And we were talking before I pressed record, 132 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: and I was like, to get to be vulnerable and 133 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: to be completely honest, like I'm staying my current relationship, 134 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: Well I'm not current, just my relationship reaching well, no, 135 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: my current relationship like reach a new stage that I 136 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: never have with other partners, and like we've just definitely 137 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: passed through this like power struggle phase where you know 138 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: we're moving and like we really have to like know 139 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: each other deeper. And I've never passed through this stage before, 140 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: and I feel like we're getting to the end of it. 141 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: And this theory has like opened my eyes to all 142 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: previous relationships that I have ever had, and every single 143 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: one of them follows this and obviously, like they break 144 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: up at different points, but never beyond the rhythm stage. 145 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: Have I broken up with someone, Which is interesting. 146 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: And that is almost exactly how it goes for people, 147 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: So once people I find as a general ballpark. I 148 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: don't have like really hard data on this. I'm just 149 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: pulling from like tens of thousands of conversations and clients 150 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: over the years, but I would say generally you're looking 151 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: at like eighty percent chance of the relationship really life 152 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: asking for the long, long haul if you make it 153 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: to the rhythm stage. So at that point, it's because 154 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: you've learned how to navigate, and as we dive into 155 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: the power struggle and the rights of passage and all 156 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: these things, you'll see and learn that if we can't 157 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: get the important lessons right in that stage, that's what 158 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: makes everything fall apart. But if we get them right 159 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: in that stage, it's what exactly prepares us for everything 160 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: to come, so that we can thrive and stay connected 161 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: and know how to weather hard times in the future 162 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: if we ever go through them, or you know, be 163 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: able to really build roots that are allowing a relationship 164 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: to thrive and last for the long haul. And I 165 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: almost think of like a relationship itself, if there was 166 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: a visual analogy, every relationship is like a little tree, 167 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 2: like a little sapling, And in the dating stage, where like, oh, 168 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: there's a little tree growing and we're so excited, and 169 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: then you water it and it gets sunlight and it 170 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 2: builds slightly deeper roots and we're like, wow, it's growing. 171 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: And then the power struggle stage is like the first 172 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: storm that happens for the tree, and it's like, you know, 173 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: there's a thunderstorm, and if we don't know how to 174 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: navigate that stage, the tree can get ripped out of 175 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: the ground. But you know, if it's really windy, perhaps, right, 176 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: But if we're able to really build deeper and deeper 177 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: roots and nourish that tree across time, eventually the roots 178 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: become so deep that even if there's like a hurricane, 179 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: that tree is not going to come out of the ground. 180 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: And so that's really what this is all about. It's like, 181 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: how do we build those deep roots with the right tools, 182 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: And that's what allows people to when they make it 183 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: to the everlasting stage. People report in the everlasting stage 184 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: and not just having the longest lasting relationships, of course, 185 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 2: but they actually report being the most fulfilled in their relationships. 186 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: And what's sad and hard to see sometimes is that 187 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 2: I think everybody's seen this where you know a couple 188 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 2: in your life or maybe you're that couple now and 189 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: where you can tell people that are truly happy together. 190 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: They've been together a long time, but they're truly fulfilled. 191 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 2: And then there's other couples you see where they're together 192 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: and maybe they're married for thirty years, but you can 193 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: tell they're just not happy, like they're just kind of 194 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: sticking it out and they're just you know, they're still 195 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: fighting all the time and they're miserable, and it's like, well, 196 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: that's not success in a relationship. And what that is 197 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: is it's actually they never left the power struggle stage. 198 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: So people can stay The dating and honeymoon are different 199 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 2: time spans, but the power struggle people can actually stay 200 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: in for the long haul if they don't actually learn 201 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: how to move through it. 202 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: Okay, we need to get into these stages because I 203 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: feel like I'm gonna I have so many questions, but 204 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, let's talk about the stages first, because then 205 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: i can go from there. The beginning with step one, 206 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: which is you've got to start talking to someone, You've 207 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: got to start dating somebody. One of the key things 208 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: to like look out for during this period that may 209 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: predict like future compatibility. 210 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. So in the dating stage. The dating 211 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: sage generally lasts about zero to six months, and it 212 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: will be people will try to speed it along a 213 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: little bit based on their attachment style. Like people who 214 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: are a little more anxious, they'll want to go from 215 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: dating into honeymoon quicker, because the rate of passage into 216 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 2: honeymoon is more about did we decide to commit to 217 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: a relationship to are we just still seeing each other. 218 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: People who are a little more avoidant leaning, they'll tend 219 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: to be like, let's stay in the dating stage forever. 220 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: They'll really drag it out and usually they're closer to 221 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: the six month mark. But the really important things to 222 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: go in prepared for in the dating stage are number one, 223 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: you have to know what you're looking for. And truly, 224 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: I think people really underestimate the stage and how important 225 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: it is, because if you don't do the dating stage properly, 226 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 2: it's like you try to plant a seed or a 227 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: crop that you're trying to grow in the wrong soil. Right, 228 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: It's like, if you don't have soil conducive to growing 229 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 2: the crop, you're gonna have a hard time. And a 230 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 2: lot of people that I would see in my practice 231 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: is they would go in they would date somebody, they 232 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: would have very low standards for dating. It would be like, 233 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: I just want to find somebody I'm attracted to and 234 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: I have fun with. And then they get into the 235 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: space of trying to win the person over. When they 236 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: start dating them, they're like, oh, I just want to 237 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: get them to like me and want to commit to me, 238 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 2: and they put their focus and attention there instead of 239 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: on vetting, and the entire purpose of the dating stages 240 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: about betting, which we'll come to in a second, So 241 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: they don't vet and then because they're in this like 242 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 2: people pleasing stage trying to win the person over. By 243 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: the time you then move through the honeymoon stage, you 244 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: get into the power struggle stage. You're not set up 245 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: for success and you're going to see all of your 246 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 2: incompatibilities are more glaring. There's going to be a lot 247 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: of challenges, and so the first thing you want to 248 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: start with to your question is like, you want to 249 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: know what are my standards, what are my needs in 250 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: a relationship, and what are my non negotiables? And I 251 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: always get people to start there and then really get 252 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: clear about those things. And then the second question, and 253 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: you would think people know to just look for this 254 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: right out of the gates, but they don't. The second 255 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: question is where should I be looking for this person, 256 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: because you'd be shocked at the amount of people who 257 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: will say things like, Oh, I really want to find 258 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: somebody who's emotionally available and who's working on themselves, And 259 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, where have you been looking? And people 260 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: will be like, oh, well, I guess I just kind 261 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: of go out to the bar every Friday and Saturday 262 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: and hope to meet somebody. And it's not that there's 263 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: no more available people at a bar, of course there 264 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: will be. It's just that you're minimizing your chances of 265 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: finding the right person. Like, if you're really looking for 266 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: a healthy relationship and you're trying to master the dating 267 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 2: stage of your life, we want to be looking, okay, 268 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: emotionally available people, people working on themselves. I'm going to 269 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: go to like a personal growth meetup in my area 270 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: once a week before, Yeah, exactly exactly. So we want 271 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: intent in that stage. And what that allows us to 272 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 2: do is be mindful of our own time, not waste 273 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: our own time, and actually honor our boundaries and honor 274 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: what it is that we're looking for our standards essentially 275 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: in this stage, and once we meet somebody that we're 276 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: interested in and we're looking in the right place and 277 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: we have the intentions of what we're consciously looking for, 278 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: the next big piece underneath that is you want to 279 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 2: go in and be like, Okay, I need to start 280 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: asking the questions that are going to get to the 281 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: bottom of whether or not we're compatible. So, if we're 282 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: doing the dating stage right, it's about learning compatibility. It's 283 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: about being intentional to see if there's actually a fit. 284 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: And so what I often say to people is like, 285 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: write out your standards, write out your your needs, and 286 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: then go on your first date. Just see if there's chemistry, 287 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 2: see if you have a fun time, see if there's 288 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: a connection. And after that, you want to intend to 289 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: ask one hard question per date, so you know, I know, 290 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 2: for me, as an example, like obviously I've been married 291 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: with my husband for ten years, but if I were 292 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: going into a dating scenario, I would be like, you know, 293 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: for me, one of the first things would be I 294 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: want to know that somebody can work through conflict. I 295 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: don't want to. I don't like to sweep things under 296 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: the rug. I like to hash things out that's extremely 297 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: important to me. So you know, I might go on 298 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: the first date have fun, and on a second date, 299 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: I might say, how do you handle conflicts? I'm so curious, Like, 300 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: what do you tend to do if there's conflicts in 301 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: your life? I might ask about like with friends or family. 302 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: If I hear somebody say, oh, I just don't like conflicts, 303 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: I never have it. I just kind of ignore stuff 304 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: and you know, park it away. I don't like to 305 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 2: have conversations like that. I'm looking for things to be easy. 306 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: I might be like, well, would you be willing to 307 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: address things if it was important to you? And if 308 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: they were like ah, and I'll tell actually, I probably 309 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: wouldn't go on another date because that's a non negotiable 310 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: for me. And so you get to get to the 311 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: bottom of these hard questions, and it also draws out 312 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: interesting and meaningful conversation. And that's the whole point of 313 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: the dating stage, is to get to know the person 314 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: and see if they're actually going to fit into your life. 315 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: And on the flip side, where a lot of people 316 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: also tend to miss the mark is that we also 317 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: owe our own authenticity in the dating stage, and we 318 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: have to let ourselves get vetted too. So when we 319 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: have these conversations, we also have to share ourselves truthfully 320 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: and honestly with other people, because we have to let 321 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: them see if they're you know, we're a good fit 322 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: for them as well. And I think too many people 323 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: they kind of people please and try to say all 324 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: the right things instead of the authentic things. And what 325 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: you'll find is, even though that might seem easier and 326 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: more gratifying in the short term, it's actually much worse 327 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: for the long term relationships chance of success because if 328 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: we're people pleasing too much in the day stage and 329 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: pretending too much that we're okay with things, we aren't, 330 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: and we don't have boundaries that we actually do, or 331 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: we don't have needs that they're actually really meaningful to us. 332 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: By the time you get to the power struggle stage, 333 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: where naturally things start to come out of the woodworks 334 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: and we show our truth there, you are so much 335 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: less likely to make it through. So to successfully the 336 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 2: later stages, you set yourself up for success. You vet properly, 337 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: you show up with your authentic self, You share yourself authentically. 338 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: We know our standards and non negotiables going into the 339 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: relationship and we try to look in the right places 340 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: and those are like the big key rights of passage. 341 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: And you stop yourself from being hurt, you know what 342 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean? Like at this stage, you probably aren't deeply 343 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: emotionally bonded to someone and or bonded at all. Like 344 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, you could get to the the like the 345 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: power struggle phase with somebody and really like them and 346 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: love them because like you spent time with them, whereas 347 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: they're still the same person that they were when you 348 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: first met them, Like if you were able to rea 349 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: like we are never going to be compatible early on, 350 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: like you save yourself so much pain. I also want 351 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: to ask you about this, which is something that I 352 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: know so many people are going to be asking themselves 353 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: right now. How do I not just get carried away 354 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: with the idealized version of someone during this stage, the 355 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: version that I convinced myself could happen, especially I think 356 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: around commitment. You know, someone says like, oh, yeah, I 357 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: just really want to take things slow. I'm not really 358 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: looking for anything serious, but let's see where things go. 359 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: And in your mind you hear, oh I just need 360 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: to win them over, or they just need time, or 361 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: you start hearing things that you want to hear. How 362 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: do you deal with that maybe tendency within you during 363 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: this stage. 364 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: I love that question. That's a phenomenal question. Of course, 365 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: you always ask great questions. The first thing I would 366 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: say is that we want to set a goal and 367 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: an intention to not date people's potential. And when I 368 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: would have clients, you know, back in the day when 369 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: I was running my practice, I would get them people 370 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: who I would say, are you know, predisposed to doing that? 371 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: You know, the types of people who are a little more anxious, 372 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: they see the best in people. It's such a charming quality, 373 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: but they're much more likely to do that. I would 374 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: actually get them to keep a dating journal, and I 375 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 2: would get them too, and I would actually tell people, 376 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: and it's a great exercise to do at home, is 377 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: I would get them to after a date, after spending 378 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: time with somebody, I would ask them. I would get 379 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 2: them to say, how is this person actually making me 380 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: feel okay? Because sometimes that question, when we're so into 381 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: the fantasy and then we don't hear from them and 382 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: we're anxious, or they're they're not great at communicating, or 383 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 2: the date's not going that well. Sometimes we cope by 384 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: getting into the fantasy, and we actually leave the reality. 385 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: And when we leave reality and operate in the fantasy, 386 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: we're out of our body. We're actually not in our body. 387 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: We're slightly dissociated. We're up here in our mind and 388 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: our fantasy and we forget to feel in our body 389 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: what's actually happening, and so, hey, how is this person 390 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: actually making me feel? It's a really good place to 391 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: you anchor you back in your body. The amount of 392 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: times I would see people in very intermittent relationships or 393 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: relationships where people weren't showing up and they're chasing and 394 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: then you say, well, how is this person actually making 395 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 2: you feel? And they're like, oh, I'm actually anxious all 396 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 2: the time. I'm actually like having a hard time sleeping 397 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: at nights and stating this person, Oh my god. You know, 398 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: so it really anchors you. It's a really good question 399 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: to ask yourself. And then I get people to rate. 400 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: You know, you go in, you track your standards, you 401 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: track your needs, and as you're vetting them, you're journaling 402 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 2: about it. Are they actually showing up for this? And 403 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 2: if you're seeing oh they could or maybe they will 404 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: in the future. As you're journaling these things out, we 405 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 2: have to keep coming back to the reality are they 406 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 2: are they doing these things now? Because when we you know, 407 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: whenever we're vetting somebody, we absolutely unequivocally have to be 408 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: betting their behavior, not their words. And that is the 409 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: trick to vetting properly. If we vet their behavior, it's 410 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: what they're already doing. And it's interesting because your behavior 411 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 2: is who you actually are. Your behavior, you're your subconscious 412 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: habituated patterns, and your subconscious makes up ninety five plus 413 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: percent of all of your beliefs and thoughts and emotions 414 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 2: and actions. And so when you're moving from a place 415 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: of behavior, Oh, this person is being consistent and how 416 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: they text good, This is how they're showing up. Oh, 417 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: this person is emotionally available and really listening and being 418 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: present on dates. Okay, great, this is how they're showing 419 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 2: up versus in my desires or what I would hope 420 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: to see in their words they say, oh, yeah, I'll 421 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: try to text you more often, no problem, But they don't. Right, Well, 422 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: then that's in their desires or their words, it's not 423 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: in their behavior. So when we're vetting, that's one of 424 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 2: the best things to really keep us anchored in the 425 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: truth and in the reality, so we don't get carried 426 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: away from the fantasy. And just the last thing I 427 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: would say to that too, it was like, such a 428 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: good question is if you find yourself being the person 429 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: who has the tendency to get carried away and want 430 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: to be chosen and want to win the person over, 431 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: and you're prioritizing that, we also have to ask ourselves, 432 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: what in me feels so safe and comfortable in that, 433 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 2: Why do I keep lee myself and chasing and wanting 434 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: to be chosen and prioritizing the need to be chosen 435 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: over how I'm actually feeling how much my needs are 436 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 2: actually met. And sometimes it's because we had a childhood 437 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 2: where we felt like that. Sometimes it's because that's what's 438 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: familiar and comfortable for us and that's safe. Or sometimes 439 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 2: it's because you know, we're just caught in this huge 440 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: wound if fearing not being good enough, and if we 441 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: see those big things popping out, then it's a really 442 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: good time to dig into those things, maybe do some 443 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: rewiring or some healing around those core beliefs so that 444 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: we can free ourselves from continuously enacting those patterns. 445 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: Honestly amazing spot on advice as someone who definitely used 446 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: to have a tendency to be chosen and then changed 447 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: the way I approached those situations. It works, It definitely 448 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: does exact. Okay, so we've we've vetted well, we've done 449 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 1: our job. We've been very good at getting people's references, 450 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: getting people's character references, understanding people's like core motivations and 451 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: who they are. What does it take to move into 452 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: the honeymoon stage? And what does this stage feel like? 453 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: And how does it feel differently to the stages before 454 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: and Aftah. 455 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, great questions. So so coming out of the dating stage, 456 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: and I think it's so important to like that really properly. 457 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 2: I also want to say one thing too, because sometimes 458 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: I notice people will be like, oh, it's like a 459 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 2: job interview. Like, you don't want dating to be a 460 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: job interview. That's not the goal. So you want to 461 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: make sure that you're That's why I always say, like, 462 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: ask one question per date, because then you can have 463 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: fun and be present and do your thing. But you're 464 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: constantly getting you're moving the needle, you're constantly learning a 465 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: little bit of the important information. So generally we tend 466 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: to once we feel like we've got a really good 467 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: grasp of that, and once we feel like the other 468 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: person you can tell has a grasp of you. What 469 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: you'll start to see as you enter towards the honeymoon 470 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: stage is it's marked by spending more time with somebody. 471 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: Usually we're speaking to them quite consistently at this point, 472 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: like almost every day or every day a lot of 473 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 2: times as well. It's like you'll spend a couple of 474 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: nights a week with them. You're you're you know, spending 475 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: a lot of your time together, and you can tell, well, 476 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: you know, there's not really room for somebody to be 477 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 2: doing this with multiple people in their lives or you know, 478 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: how they hold down a job and date like this 479 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: at the same time. You know there's two it's a 480 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: lot of time commitment, and so once we see this 481 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: progress towards that, usually around the three to four month 482 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: mark is sort of the healthy space where you've had 483 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: the chance to collect enough information. As soon as there 484 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: is a commitment in a relationship, so hey, we're going 485 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: to be together, we're going to be exclusive, it's just 486 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: going to be us dating each other. Once there's a 487 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: conversation that is the exact right of passage that moves 488 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: you into the honeymoon stage. So once there's an actual conversation, 489 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 2: we've decided to commit to each other, we're going to 490 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: be with each other than there you are. You're in 491 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: the honeymoon stage. 492 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: Now. 493 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: Some people do try to move there a little earlier, 494 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 2: some people do move there a little later, But three 495 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: to four months is usually the best zone for people. 496 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: I find the most securely attached people actually move from 497 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: that space, and it's kind of the sweet spot. And 498 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: the honeymoon stage then becomes Okay, you're officially in this relationship, 499 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 2: and we'll be a little more vulnerable with each other. 500 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: We'll be a little more open with each other with 501 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: our feeling specifically expressing love, care, excitement, making longer term 502 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 2: plans like maybe to go on a trip or a vacation. 503 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 2: You know, there will be this sort of presence kind 504 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: of exactly exactly you know, there's this increase of bringing 505 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: this person into your life, introducing them to your friends, 506 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 2: sharing more of your internal world with them, and it's 507 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: a really beautiful phase. And in this phase specifically, what's 508 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 2: really interesting is you can see that people they have 509 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: elevated oxytocin in this stage, which is the bonding neurochemical. 510 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: They have elevated dopamine, which is the motivation neuro chemical. 511 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,479 Speaker 2: And what's interesting about this is have you ever noticed 512 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: how people in the the honeymoon stage, you're always like 513 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: motivated to go out with them and do things with them. 514 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: Let's go to dinner, let's go here, and. 515 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: The constantly you're always talking about them with your friends 516 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: and family. I have a friend who's in this stage 517 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: right now. Love it a bit, but you came up 518 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: for dinner last night and I was like, I cannot, 519 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: I can't hear about him anymore. I'm so sorry, but 520 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: she's like so obsessed. 521 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so we have all of this like 522 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: neurochemical ca cocktail of things. We even have the phenyl 523 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: appalalamine neurochemical, which is all about attraction. So we have 524 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: all of this like bonding, attraction, motivation, and you'll see 525 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: it in people's behavior and it's a really beautiful stage. 526 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: And after the zero to six months of somewhere in 527 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: that range of dating, we then move into about a 528 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: year to a year and a half of honeymoon. And 529 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: interestingly enough, this is often where a lot of people 530 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 2: will get engaged, get married. You know, I've seen a 531 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: lot of yeah and j at the amount of people 532 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 2: who I when I was back in the day when 533 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: I was running my practice, before I went into all 534 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: the online space, I would have so many clients who 535 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: would say, tays, I married my wife and then after 536 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: two years, as soon as after we got married, she 537 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 2: turned into a monster, or I'm married my husband. As 538 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: soon as I got married, he turned into someone he 539 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: never was. And people would get confused because honestly a 540 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: lot of people would think I'd say like roughly ten 541 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 2: percent of people would get married in the honeymoon stage 542 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 2: then move into the power struggle stage after marriage and 543 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,239 Speaker 2: think that their spouse like tricked them into marrying them, 544 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 2: or pretended to be someone that they weren't and that 545 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: they were truly the secret like monster buying closed doors. 546 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: And when people when I would explain to people, no, no, no, 547 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: you just it's too early. You never made it into the 548 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 2: power struggle stage. This as natural, this is normal. You 549 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: have to learn to navigate these things that are coming up. 550 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 2: The amount of relief people would have of like, oh, 551 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: it's a stage, It's not that I was tricked, you know, 552 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: and a lot of people would feel almost a sense 553 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 2: of betrayal when you move into the power struggle stage, 554 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: because you know, you could date somebody, feel really good 555 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: about them, getting engaged at nine months or a year, 556 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 2: get married, you know, half a year later, and you're 557 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 2: still in your honeymoon. So so at this point of time, 558 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 2: this is usually that next year to year and a half, 559 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: and well, actually, you know, it's a beautiful time. It's 560 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: lots of fun, all these great things. But something else 561 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: really important to note is that people are still moving 562 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: from more conditionally based love because you haven't had to 563 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 2: have the hard conversations show and share a lot of 564 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: your deep interferes and flaws the way that you will 565 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: just mourn the power struggle stage. And so you slow 566 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: the mask on a little bit. You're you're still kind 567 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 2: of a little on your best behavior and maybe kind 568 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: of thinking about what you're going to really show or 569 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: share with the person. And so once we start getting 570 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 2: really comfortable, and once we start letting down the mask 571 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: and letting somebody in, when we get into that space 572 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: of comfort, all of those neurochemicals actually reduce. Okay, so 573 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: the Fennel ethalalamine and the oxytose and the dopamine. We 574 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: start getting more comfortable, we enter into the power struggle. 575 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 2: And it's precisely this that actually triggers off the power 576 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: struggle itself, because we'll start saying, hey, actually, that's not 577 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 2: okay with me. Actually that's a boundary for me. Actually 578 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: I know I said I like this, but I don't. 579 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: As soon as people start sharing more of their deep 580 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: inner world, it's a crisis for people, but it's also 581 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 2: an opportunity. It's like, there's this challenge because now we're 582 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: seeing all these in depth insights into somebody and we 583 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 2: have to figure out how to and that can be 584 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: really hard at first, but you're also getting this deep 585 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 2: opportunity to see into somebody way more that you love 586 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: and to let them into your world way more and 587 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 2: to share your authenticity at a deeper level with them. 588 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: So if we do the power struggle right, then things 589 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: can can be really beautiful and a lot of richness 590 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: in the relationship can come out of that. But really 591 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: that marked right of passage from the honeymoon to the 592 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: power struggle as you start getting more comfortable, and as 593 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: soon as get more comfortable, the mask drops more and 594 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 2: that will be what triggers off the power struggle stage. 595 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm so excited to ask you some follow up 596 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: questions because I have them, of course, But we are 597 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: going to take a short break here. When we come back, 598 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about the power struggle stage, 599 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: rhythm stage, devotion stage. Stay with us, we'll be right back. 600 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: So I kind of mentioned I, me and my partner 601 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: have been together for almost three years, and we definitely 602 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: hit the power struggle stage recently. Right we are in 603 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: the process of moving overseas together and all these like 604 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 1: big milestones happened, And there was definitely a part of 605 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: me when this friction started emerging where I was like, 606 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, like this we've made 607 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: like maybe this relationship isn't right, or that like maybe 608 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: we don't we're not compatible. Having like kind of now 609 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: probably moved a little bit more over this hill. Why 610 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: do you think this stage has to happen and why 611 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: do you think a lot of people break up in 612 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: this stage, whether rightly or wrongly. 613 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: So, yeah, such a great question. So to your point, 614 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: every single person pretty much across the boards, even securely 615 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: attached people they have moments of those thoughts in the 616 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: power struggle stage. So I think that's one of the 617 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: most important things to say, is that, like when you said, 618 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: all is this right? Are we are we compatible? Is 619 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 2: this working? Like that is so normal? And that's every 620 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: person's experience, and it's because we have this friction in 621 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: this stage. And so you know, obviously there's a difference 622 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: if somebody's like having these explosive arguments every day all 623 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: day and they're miserable and then they're asking those questions. 624 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: But there is a natural just like when we we 625 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: go through stages of life, sometimes we question ourselves and 626 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: different things. Oh, you know, maybe you start a new career, Wait, 627 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: can I really do this? Am I on the right track? 628 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: You know? 629 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: There's these natural sort of insecurities that pop up when 630 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: we have problems, and I find that to be one 631 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: of the most relieving things for people to hear, because 632 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: you know, people would happen. One of the biggest reasons 633 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: people break up in that stage is they take those 634 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: thoughts so seriously and then they start catastrophizing and magnifying, 635 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: and then they see everything through that lens and they're like, see, 636 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, we're not compatible. I knew it, and 637 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: then they they like play into it more and more, 638 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,239 Speaker 2: and then the other person's doing the same thing, and 639 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: then we have this vicious cycle that happens when in reality, 640 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: I find that if people just knew that, hey, this 641 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: stage is going to be a little bit confronting, you're 642 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: gonna have moments at times in the stage, especially when 643 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: it starts off, where there's doubts and you question the relationship, 644 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 2: just like if you start a new career and it's 645 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: a learning curve, you're gonna be like, wait, am I 646 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: good enough to do this? Like we do that and 647 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: it's human and it's so normal. So I just that's 648 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: a huge thing first, and then going into it. The 649 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: stage is necessary because it is I think it's such 650 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: a beautiful stage. People don't like to hear that when 651 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: they're in it, but yeahle stage because people get this 652 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: opportunity to move the needle from more conditionally based love 653 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 2: to more unconditionally based love. And so often people would 654 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: say to me, ohday, what if I want to stay 655 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: in the honeymoon stage forever? And I'm like, do you 656 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 2: want to just conditionally love your partner forever? Like is 657 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: that because even though it's scary, you know, you get 658 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: to see into this person, You get to like really 659 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: learn about their fears and their flaws and their needs 660 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: more deeply. And you'll have to learn to move out 661 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: of the stage and move through the stage effectively. How 662 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 2: to navigate conflict, how to be vulnerable. One of the 663 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: biggest reasons people break up to the second part of 664 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: your question is that you you actually will not be 665 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: able to make it out of the stage unless you 666 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: learn vulnerability. And I remember when when I joined you 667 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: on an episode a while back and you shared it 668 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: on the episode, and it was such a touching way 669 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: you shared it, and you talked about like sort of 670 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 2: being vulnerable and sharing something that was vulnerable for you 671 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 2: and it going well, and just having this sort of 672 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: like wow like moment of receiving that, and you can 673 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: think back, you know, for anybody who's ever been through that, 674 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 2: the moment before you're vulnerable for the first time with 675 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 2: somebody in a pretty meaningful way, it's terrifying, it's so scary, 676 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: But the moment when you had the conversation that goes well, 677 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: it's a huge breakthrough. And once you do that once 678 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: and then twice and then a few more times, and 679 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: now you're both doing it with each other. You're literally 680 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: building such deep roots for your tree, Like you're truly 681 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: getting into a space where like the roots are building 682 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: and they're growing and they're becoming. They're making the tree 683 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: so much more unshakeable. And so you know, once you 684 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: get into that space, it's it's yes a crisis because 685 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: there's hard things that will come up, and it's marked 686 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: by you know, bisically, people will argue more at the beginning. 687 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: You'll see if you can almost graph relationships. You go 688 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: dating honeymoon, there's this peak of infatuation power struggle. It's 689 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: like all this fighting and then the conflict goes way 690 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 2: down and the whole point of the power struggle and 691 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: there's really like four major rights of passage, Like we 692 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: have to get these four things right or we'll stay 693 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: stuck in the power struggle forever or the relationship will 694 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 2: end within it. Number one is vulnerability. Okay, so learning 695 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: to actually share your inner world vulnerably. I'll tell a 696 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: story here for a second. I had this client once 697 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: and she was like this lovely, amazing, just beautiful human being, 698 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: had like all these great qualities put a lot of 699 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 2: pressure on herself to be perfect in every way, like 700 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: so put together, so precise about everything, had a great job, 701 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 2: everything on paper, and she never ever could make it 702 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 2: out of the power struggle stage with people, and she 703 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: just wanted a loving, long term relationship. But when we 704 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: looked into her childhood, what we found is that she 705 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: had a father who was quite narcissistic and always made 706 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: her feel like second guessing herself, and she had to 707 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 2: be perfect to get love from him and all these things, 708 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 2: so she never would let somebody see her in her imperfections, 709 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 2: and when people would break up with her in relationships, 710 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 2: the common theme is people would say, I feel like 711 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: I still don't know who you are, and I feel 712 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: like we're like not getting anywhere. Yeah, And it's truly 713 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 2: no matter how quote unquote perfect somebody is, or how 714 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 2: well they have their life together or how you know, 715 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: you name it, if we can't get vulnerable. Vulnerability is 716 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: exactly what moves us from infatuation to real love. And 717 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 2: you could make a pretty strong argument that even though 718 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 2: we can love in the dating and honeymoon stage, it's 719 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: still kind of an infatuation based love. It's still rooted 720 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: in infatuation. And you know, when we move into the 721 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: power struggle and we really deeply let somebody in and 722 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 2: really let ourselves be seen and really learn about what 723 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: each other's sensitivities are and fears, that vulnerability breeds much 724 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: more unconditionally based love and we get this opening into that. 725 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: And so vulnerability is a huge right of passage, and 726 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 2: vulnerability then goes with us deeply learning how to meet 727 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: each other's needs. Number two and number three is like 728 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: really learning how to navigate conflict around each other's the 729 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: fears and needs together. And so as an example, you know, 730 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: you can think, let's say there's a couple and let's 731 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 2: say one person in the couple is somebody who needs 732 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 2: a lot of presence. They want somebody to be attuned 733 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: to them and be present with them, and they really 734 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: value like depth of emotional connection. And let's say we 735 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: have another person in the couple who, you know, maybe 736 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: that's a big need for the one person and maybe 737 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 2: the other person they really need gentle communication when they're 738 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 2: getting feedback. Maybe they are a little sensitive to criticism, 739 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: and they don't take criticism or feedback that well. They 740 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: kind of you know, it wounds them a little bit 741 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: and they're sensitive to it. So you know, in this 742 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 2: particular case, those could be issues where if one person's 743 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 2: not that present and one person is a little more 744 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 2: harsh or critical with their words, if somebody doesn't know 745 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 2: there's a power struggle stage and know how to navigate it, 746 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 2: then they could break up. But instead, if we have 747 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 2: the ability to talk about these things, and the person 748 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 2: who's sensitive to feedback might say, hey, I want to 749 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: try to hear feedback from you, but can you be 750 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 2: a little more gentle in your delivery because you know 751 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 2: it's a little hard for me sometimes and it takes 752 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 2: a certain degree of vulnerability to say that. But then 753 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 2: if the other person is willing to do that work 754 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: and meet them on that and practice that. And then 755 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 2: if the person who you know, say, the other half 756 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 2: of the couple is going and okay, I'll work with 757 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: my delivery. I'll be a little more gentle and considerate 758 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 2: for sure. And also I need you to be a 759 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 2: little more present sometimes, you know, somebody being present and 760 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 2: you know, really listening is really important to me, and 761 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 2: the other person is okay, and I'll work on that too. 762 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: We're not going to be perfect at it all of 763 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 2: a sudden. You know, it takes a little bit of 764 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: time to practice and work these things through. But once 765 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: they actually meet in this in a middle ground, that's 766 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 2: precisely when it's like, okay, now we're building really powerful roots. 767 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 2: Now we know how to naturally take each other into 768 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 2: consideration because we were vulnerable about these things. We heard 769 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: each other each other's fears or flaws or sensitivities, we 770 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: heard each other's needs. And now that equips us to 771 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 2: properly navigate conflict. And so when conflict comes up, if 772 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 2: we can approach conflict with vulnerability, with openness, with acceptance 773 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 2: in this particular case, all of these things start feeding 774 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: together into us building healthier collective patterns. Or we may 775 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: have to make slight compromises on each side. But what's 776 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 2: so interesting here is a lot of people in the 777 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 2: power struggle stage will say, yeah, I have to learn 778 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: to navigate conflict a little bit more. In the power 779 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: struggle stage, I have to There's why do we have 780 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 2: to hash everything out or talk about everything. It's only 781 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: for a period of time. You'll have more conversations and 782 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: more arguments because you're fusing your inner world. You have 783 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 2: to talk about all these things that you don't know 784 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: about each other yet, but once you naturally Okay, so 785 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 2: let's pretend it's me and my husband, and let's say 786 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 2: I'm the person who wants more presence, and maybe he's 787 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: the person who wants conflict, you know, under criticism and 788 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: better delay devery. If we start doing those things and 789 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 2: we practice them together and we get better at them, 790 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: and I naturally am more mindful in my delivery, he 791 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: naturally makes an effort to put his phone away and 792 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: be more present when we spend time together, Then when 793 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 2: we fuse into that together, it's exactly the fusing, and 794 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: that's that fourth part that moves us out of the 795 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: power struggle and into the rhythm. Because now we're in 796 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: the rhythm, we're in the flow of doing these things. 797 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: We worked on them together. We both made compromises, and 798 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 2: by the way, usually the exact compromises that will make 799 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: actually grow both of us and bring us closer together. 800 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 2: And now in doing that, you get into this rhythm. 801 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 2: You don't have to talk about all these things so much. 802 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 2: You know how, you know naturally how to Let's pretend 803 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: it's me and my husband. I naturally know to be 804 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: kind in my delivery with my husband, I naturally have 805 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: practiced that it gets wired in and now it's just 806 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: something I do. And that's that's exactly and precisely when 807 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 2: we start exiting the power struggle stage. It's the right 808 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 2: of passage of when we've hashed out the important things 809 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: enough and we actually in these new habits in the 810 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: relationship where all of a sudden we consider each other 811 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 2: without having to think it through or argue about it 812 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 2: or talk about it, and then we feel more loved 813 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 2: as we each need to feel loved in a relationship. 814 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 2: And now we're in the rhythm of things, and that's 815 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 2: what takes us out of that stage and into the 816 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: next one. 817 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: Which all sounds honestly very positive to me. And something 818 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: I will say is you will be surprised how every 819 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: single long term couple relationship that you know has gone 820 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: through this stage, like every single one. I've been talking 821 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: to my friends so much about it, and they're like, 822 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: oh yeah, like of course we had that, of course. 823 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: And the love that you start to feel for your 824 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: partner is honestly bigger than the honeymoon stage will ever be. 825 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: Like the honeymoon stage to me and how I imagine 826 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: it is like eating a big bowl of candy and 827 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: like sweets and like malteeses and popcorn. It's like so delicious, right, 828 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: and you just want to eat and eat and then 829 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: like when you move, I'm guessing now we're going to 830 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: go into the rhythm stage. Into this stage, it's like 831 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: having like an incredibly nourishing home cooked meal. Yeah, it 832 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: might not like taste is like electric as a bowl 833 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: of like literal gummy bears, but like it's so much 834 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: better for you, and it does actually taste better as well. 835 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the rhythm stage. You've explained how we 836 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: get to this stage by moving through conflict, being vulnerable, 837 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: all those other rights of passage. What does it feel 838 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: like in this moment? 839 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love your analogy so much. I've often said 840 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: it's sort of like the pleasure seeking versus the fulfillment. 841 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: Oh I love. 842 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, we get this like exciting, but like fulfillment can 843 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: always outgrow pleasure seeking, you know, like grows and grows 844 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,879 Speaker 2: and grows, and there's a depth to it and and 845 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 2: pleasure always hits like a glass ceiling like okay, cool, 846 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 2: this is exciting, but you can only really get so far, 847 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 2: but the depth of love and care that you can 848 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 2: feel somebody for somebody when you know them so well 849 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 2: and you've talked things out and you let them see 850 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 2: you so deeply and you feel seen and known and understood, 851 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 2: Like it's just such a totally different experience. I love 852 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 2: that analogy that the candy versus the home cooked meal, 853 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 2: which is more nourishing and better for you. And yeah, 854 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,720 Speaker 2: that's fantastic. So once we get into the rhythm stage, 855 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 2: I think you described it so beautifully. It's like you'll 856 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 2: feel this depth of love and you'll feel nourished by 857 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 2: the relationship in a really profound way, and you'll know 858 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 2: that there's a sense of comfort there, the sense of peace, 859 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 2: the sense of being able to rely on this person. 860 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 2: You'll feel like that person really knows you and you've 861 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 2: let them in. And you know, so many people they 862 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 2: get stuck. And I know I mentioned this at a 863 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 2: high level earlier, but like so many people get stuck 864 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 2: in the power struggle stage and then they they don't 865 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 2: get the opportunity to think that relationships are more than 866 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: just the highs and lows. And that's another really important thing, 867 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: you know, for people to hear I find is that 868 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 2: just because you're going through hard time doesn't mean that 869 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: that's like the cap of the relationship. Once you can 870 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 2: learn communication and vulnerability in these practices, all of a 871 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 2: sudden the needle moves, like all of a sudden things 872 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: change and you get to enrich It's almost like you 873 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 2: level up in a really big way. And so in 874 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 2: the rhythm stage, one of the first things that happens 875 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: is like you catch your breath. Quite honestly, like there's 876 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: a settling in, there's a fulfillment, there's a contentment because 877 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 2: you're kind of coming from like high high of dating 878 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 2: and honeymoon and then lo lo of the power struggle 879 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 2: by comparison. And then it's like, oh my gosh, we 880 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,399 Speaker 2: get to this middle ground, this harmonious space, this space 881 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 2: where we're not having conflict, we almost like preemptively avoid 882 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 2: conflict by just looking out for each other. And this 883 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 2: is the place too. And I think this is another 884 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 2: really important thing. You know, when I was when I 885 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 2: was a kid, and I don't know if you've had 886 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,240 Speaker 2: this experience, but when I was a kid, I remember 887 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 2: being like a teenager and dating somebody and maybe even 888 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 2: being in like a pretty serious relationship at like eighteen 889 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 2: and thinking how could this possible? Like how could this 890 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 2: possibly last forever? Like how do I possibly know I 891 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 2: won't get bored in ten years or they won't get bored? 892 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: Like sure I like them now, and like we're all 893 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 2: great now, but like inevitably things have to fall apart, 894 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 2: Like how could you know you're not going to change 895 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 2: your mind? And I remember really grappling with that a 896 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: lot when I was younger and thinking like how would 897 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 2: you know? But it's because I'd never been out of 898 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 2: a power struggle stage or in anything beyond the power struggle. 899 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 2: And one of the things that happens when you leave 900 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 2: the power struggle and you get into the rhythm is 901 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 2: it's like you've just nurtured something. You've just like cared 902 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 2: so much for something, You've just cared for this relationship 903 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: and you've been cared for and you've like developed something 904 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 2: so deep and meaningful that now this idea that you 905 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 2: could just get bored of it, or that they could 906 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 2: get bored of you, or these to feel like superficial ideas, 907 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 2: Like it feels silly to think that, And and it's 908 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 2: because you put the work in and when we put 909 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 2: the work into something and we devote to it, and 910 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 2: we show up and there's all of this growth and 911 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,919 Speaker 2: progress and depth. Of course, you don't want to sabotage 912 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 2: or race, just change your mind. The rhythm stage, interestingly enough, 913 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 2: actually is quite short lived after the power struggle. So 914 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 2: usually after the power struggle, we have that that you know, 915 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 2: the power struggle can last forever. People can actually stay 916 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,399 Speaker 2: married for a decade. They'll just like live and die 917 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 2: in the power struggle. 918 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: That sounds you don't let that find me. 919 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 2: And then and then if we do make it out, 920 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 2: though the rhythm stage is short, it's usually another six 921 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 2: months or so, sometimes even three months before we move 922 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 2: into the devotion stage. And the devotion stage is where 923 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 2: we start to really move into long term commitments. We 924 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 2: start thinking about like okay, marriage and children, maybe even 925 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 2: like building a business together. These really like long long 926 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 2: term commitments, because you know, you can get to a 927 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 2: space where it's like there's a you have kids, it's 928 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 2: it's a lifelong commitment for the rest of your life. Right, 929 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 2: So you have this this space, and in the commitment stage, 930 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 2: you'll see that we feel that we're in this rhythm, 931 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 2: we're coming out of the rhythm stage. We know how 932 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 2: to navigate hard things. There's a trust in each other 933 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 2: that we can move through hard things together, and there's 934 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 2: a security in that that then allows people to start 935 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 2: really getting excited, to plan for the future and to 936 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 2: make bigger moves. And that's where we're in that real 937 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 2: devotion stage. Both people will be mutually devoted in this stage. 938 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 2: That's where you get like reciprocity. Both people know they 939 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 2: have this sort of sacred belief in the trust and 940 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 2: harmony together, and that's the space that now people are like, Okay, 941 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 2: we've got this. I know this is the right person. 942 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 2: I can see myself building a whole life with this 943 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 2: person for the long haul. And that's really the prerequisite then, 944 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 2: of course, to the everlasting stage. 945 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 1: Okay, before we talk about everlasting stage, a couple of 946 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: things I want to ask you about Slash stick around 947 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: in this space for a bit. I find it's so 948 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: interesting what you said by people trying to move from 949 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: the power struggle phase into the devotion stage without moving 950 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: either through the power struggle stage or the rhythm stage. 951 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: This is I have seen this. People are like fighting, 952 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: having terrible issues, and they're like let's move in together, 953 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: let's have a baby. And I'm like, if you if 954 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: this is hard now, imagine how much harder it's going 955 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: to be when you have find additional financial pressures, when 956 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: you have a living creature that you have to take 957 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: care of, like a baby. I just feel like it 958 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: just is so difficult to navigate with those like additional struggles. 959 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: Speaking of partners, I'm this my uncle. 960 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 2: Where you can come in. 961 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: When we get back to what I was saying, like, yeah, 962 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 1: if you think, if you think things are hard now, 963 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: like when you have additional financial pressure, when you see 964 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: each other every single day and you haven't learned how 965 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: to fight yet because you live together or have a 966 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: baby together, like, it's going to get so much worse 967 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: and so much harder. 968 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And honestly, exactly what you said is 969 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 2: like one of the truest things. So so many times 970 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 2: I would see people stuck in the power struggle, don't 971 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 2: know how to navigate it. They're a couple of years 972 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 2: in and they go, Okay, let's have a baby. And honestly, 973 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 2: it's almost like trying to put it a sense of 974 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,840 Speaker 2: novelty on something that requires vulnerability. It's like, let's do 975 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 2: a new, big thing together. And I would see countless 976 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,439 Speaker 2: countless times, quite honestly, couples who would come in and 977 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 2: they had, you know, because they obviously ran a busy 978 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 2: practice back in the day for quite a while. And 979 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 2: people come in and they say, Tice, we're here to 980 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 2: do counseling. We've broken up, we had a baby, and 981 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 2: you know, we are a couple of years into clearly 982 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 2: what was the power struggle, and they had a baby, 983 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 2: hoping it would be the save all, and instead it 984 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 2: broke them down right and broke them up. And so 985 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 2: you kind of repair those things at that point for 986 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 2: sure by learning the tools and the power struggle stage 987 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 2: that you need to. But so often people have no 988 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,839 Speaker 2: idea that there's different stages of relationships and be think 989 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 2: that they're going to solve it by just adding new 990 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 2: things to do instead of actually navigating the core problems. 991 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I just absolutely could not agree more 992 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 2: with that. 993 00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we're going to take one wall sho upbreak 994 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,800 Speaker 1: before we talk about the final stage, the everlasting stage, 995 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: So stay with us, will be right back. Okay, So 996 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: you're at the devotion stage. You know, you're very happy 997 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: you're committed, maybe you're engaged in it. You know you're engaged, 998 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: and you feel like this is the one forever. There 999 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 1: is another stage, which is the everlasting stage. And my 1000 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,760 Speaker 1: question for you is, does everyone from the devotion stage 1001 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: get to the everlasting stage or why would people in 1002 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: the devotion stage still choose to break up or have 1003 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: a breakup occur to them before they get to everlasting. 1004 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,320 Speaker 2: Such a good question. So I would say the only 1005 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,919 Speaker 2: major reason that I've ever seen people break up once 1006 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 2: in the devotion stage is because of some sort of 1007 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 2: external event that's extremely painful that essentially causes an identity 1008 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 2: crisis in one or both people, and now where everything 1009 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,680 Speaker 2: they built sort of gets destroyed. So it sounds very dramatic, 1010 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 2: and but honestly, once you're at the devotion stage, almost 1011 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 2: every person ends up in the everlasting stage. They start 1012 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 2: acting these things out. But let's say, for example, that 1013 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 2: one person and I'll tell a story. There's some sad ones. 1014 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 2: You know, if people who I saw over the years 1015 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 2: who were in the devotion stage and then broke up 1016 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,480 Speaker 2: and and and you know, in one particular case, this 1017 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 2: is one of the less sad ones. But in one 1018 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 2: particular case, one person lost both of their parents in 1019 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,399 Speaker 2: a year, right both their the less sad one, that's 1020 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 2: the less sad. Oh my god, that's a tragic one. 1021 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 2: I know. Sorry, I should have said, like a trigger 1022 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 2: warning ahead of time, it's sad, but truly, like you know, 1023 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,400 Speaker 2: And what happened is that person then spiraled into this 1024 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 2: really deep depression and then they ended up in a 1025 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 2: space where they weren't showing up for the relationship. They 1026 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 2: were kind of angry, they had a chip on their shoulder. 1027 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 2: They didn't know how to communicate what they needed from 1028 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 2: this place of depression. They knew how to communicate and 1029 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 2: navigate other things from earlier, but in this depth of 1030 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 2: what they were experiencing, they were like, what what am 1031 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,240 Speaker 2: I experiencing? What am I feeling? And so I actually 1032 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 2: ended up working with this client who came to me 1033 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 2: to heal from a breakup after that, and they didn't 1034 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,040 Speaker 2: know about the life cycle of relationships. They didn't know 1035 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 2: about how to process grief or there's sort of a 1036 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 2: lot in there. But those types of situations where there's 1037 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 2: something really tragic and extreme that causes this person to 1038 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 2: not even know how to navigate their own lives and 1039 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 2: then they can't show up for the relationship, and then 1040 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 2: we can backslide into, you know, back in the power 1041 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 2: struggle and then break up from there if there's something 1042 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 2: really big. If there's not something really big, Generally, once 1043 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,399 Speaker 2: you're in the devotion stage, people move into the everlasting stage. 1044 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 2: It's just about do we do the work necessary. Even 1045 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:46,439 Speaker 2: people who have commitment fears, and you think, okay, there's 1046 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 2: this big fear of commitment, would that be something that 1047 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 2: causes people to backslide Even people with big commitment fears, generally, 1048 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,919 Speaker 2: at the point where you've learned to navigate things, talk 1049 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,320 Speaker 2: things out, hash things through really well, those commitment fears, 1050 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 2: I sent actually don't get a chance to see daylight 1051 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 2: over time because you're showing up with such a commitment 1052 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:07,800 Speaker 2: to the relationship to get out of the power struggle 1053 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,919 Speaker 2: stage that you're learning like, oh, commitment is scary because 1054 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,399 Speaker 2: I'm scared of being trapped in a relationship that doesn't 1055 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 2: meet my needs. And when you know how to navigate 1056 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 2: your needs and talk about them and then you're fulfilled 1057 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 2: in the relationship, people's commitment fear just happens to go 1058 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,720 Speaker 2: away at the same time because commitment fears are rooted 1059 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 2: in the fear of actually being trapped and not being 1060 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 2: able to get your needs in met. So once we 1061 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 2: get into the devotion stage, you're extremely likely to move 1062 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 2: into the everlasting stage. It's sort of like the inevitable 1063 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,720 Speaker 2: next step and the right of passage that moves you 1064 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 2: from there into the everlasting stage is all about, in particular, 1065 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,839 Speaker 2: acting out the things that you were devoted to. So 1066 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,839 Speaker 2: the dev devotion stage, you'll sort of talk about them, I, 1067 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 2: you know, share ideas. We should have kids, we should 1068 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,760 Speaker 2: you know, move into this place, we should get married, 1069 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,319 Speaker 2: we should do all these things. But what moves you 1070 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 2: into the everlasting stage is then that you're actually actioning 1071 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 2: them out. You have your first you know, you have 1072 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 2: your wedding, You do all these things, and so now 1073 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 2: the everlasting stage is actually about building and creating a 1074 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 2: life together, and it's marked by things like, you know, 1075 00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,120 Speaker 2: merging your finances, having conversations about how you want to 1076 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 2: invest your money in the long run, or what things 1077 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 2: you want to spend your time doing, or who's going 1078 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,560 Speaker 2: to be, you know, taking care of the kids, what 1079 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,280 Speaker 2: kind of parents do we want to be. It's marked 1080 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 2: by like these types of conversations that are much more 1081 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 2: rooted in how do we build what life? Are we 1082 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 2: co creating? What does this look like? And really moving 1083 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 2: from that space in particular where you see you're definitely 1084 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 2: in that everlasting stage exactly. 1085 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: I also feel like I'm thinking now about those those 1086 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: like the snares, like the things that grab people and 1087 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: stop them from getting to devotion and everlasting, and I 1088 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: feel like, also that might be a requirement. I don't 1089 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: know if this is something you found as well to 1090 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,719 Speaker 1: get through something that shifts your identity or shifts you 1091 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: as people that you still are like, well that's okay 1092 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,520 Speaker 1: and we can grow through it. And I was like 1093 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,160 Speaker 1: thinking about them, I was like, you know, maybe not 1094 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,959 Speaker 1: being able to have kids would be like a really 1095 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: big one that you have to decide, like can I 1096 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,880 Speaker 1: do this on Like it's just really you know, that 1097 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: would be really difficult, Like having a bit of like 1098 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: a midl like crisis. I'm sure happens to a lot 1099 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: of people as well, like losing like a career that 1100 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,399 Speaker 1: like you were devoted to a natural disaster. Like I'm 1101 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,760 Speaker 1: thinking about all these things and I'm like, probably because 1102 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,360 Speaker 1: they changed you and maybe they put you back into 1103 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,320 Speaker 1: that stage as well. And maybe that's why you see 1104 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like kind of my parents' friends now 1105 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: and like my like older friends, and these situations where 1106 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,400 Speaker 1: it's like we something terrible happened or something so large 1107 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,680 Speaker 1: happened that we actually came out of it as a 1108 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 1: different person, but some of them still get back together 1109 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 1: and they go back through this entire thing. 1110 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,879 Speaker 2: So it's like exactly, I'm thinking about. 1111 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,719 Speaker 1: Like two instances in particular where I'm like, oh, this 1112 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: terrible like or not even it wasn't terri what was 1113 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,200 Speaker 1: just earth shattering like it happened, and then but they 1114 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: ended up getting back together and it was so interesting, 1115 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,400 Speaker 1: like they went back through all these stages and they 1116 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,080 Speaker 1: got married again and like all these things. I'm like, wow, 1117 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,440 Speaker 1: it's it's so it's so fascinating. 1118 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,279 Speaker 2: So you just nailed it. So that's exactly what it is. 1119 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,759 Speaker 2: So you can have these things and the root of 1120 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,239 Speaker 2: what actually can cause because because nobody really breaks up 1121 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 2: in the devotion stage, but we can backside back into 1122 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 2: the power struggle, and the things that would cause us 1123 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,040 Speaker 2: to backside back to the power struggle is if you 1124 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,799 Speaker 2: think of the power struggle as being rooted in our 1125 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,239 Speaker 2: ability to communicate our needs, share our fears, open up 1126 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 2: vulnerably about our feelings, learn each other through that space, 1127 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 2: learn to navigate those things collectively. Then what happens is 1128 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 2: if there's something just like you said, a natural disaster 1129 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,440 Speaker 2: or somebody not being able to have kids, one hundred 1130 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,480 Speaker 2: percent of these things, it's actually rooted in one or 1131 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,080 Speaker 2: both people having an identity crisis that then causes them. 1132 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 2: Even though you originally did the work, it changed who 1133 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 2: you were as a person, exactly like you said, because 1134 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,680 Speaker 2: you have an identity crisis, and now you're relegated, just 1135 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,360 Speaker 2: by nature, you're relegated back into the power struggle stage 1136 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 2: because now you have new fears, Now you have new wounds, 1137 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 2: now you have new needs in the relationship because you 1138 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,640 Speaker 2: became a new person. The situation or event changed you 1139 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 2: enough that the things you learned about the person in 1140 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 2: the power struggle stage in your relationship have dramatically changed 1141 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,759 Speaker 2: because they have changed dramatically, and so now you have 1142 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,400 Speaker 2: to go back through this relearning stage, relearning to navigate 1143 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,920 Speaker 2: talking about the new fears, the new flaws, and if 1144 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,600 Speaker 2: you do that, you'll then move back through the stages 1145 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,960 Speaker 2: then you progress again. But if we don't and if 1146 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 2: we don't know how to navigate ourselves, sort of like 1147 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,680 Speaker 2: that client dimension too, fell into that deep depression and 1148 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 2: came to me after they had already broken up with 1149 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,959 Speaker 2: their ex and they weren't looking to get back together 1150 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,439 Speaker 2: at that point because it was quite a while after 1151 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,319 Speaker 2: the fact, but they change. They didn't know who they 1152 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 2: were in that depression, and so they then didn't know 1153 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,600 Speaker 2: how to say what they needed. They didn't know how 1154 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,839 Speaker 2: to be vulnerable about what they were feeling or how 1155 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,280 Speaker 2: to express it or explain it, and so they ultimately 1156 00:55:58,280 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 2: had to do a lot of healing and work within 1157 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 2: themselves to then be able to come back and be 1158 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 2: functional for a new relationship as a new person. 1159 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is so fascinating. I could talk about this 1160 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: all day. I want to ask you like two final 1161 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,920 Speaker 1: questions though they've just kind of come up for me. 1162 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:16,919 Speaker 1: I'm like, listening to this, I'm like, oh, what would 1163 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 1: the listeners want to know? Like what are they thinking? 1164 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,399 Speaker 1: The first thing I'm thinking is can you skip any 1165 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,360 Speaker 1: of the stages? Because there are people who seem to 1166 00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,320 Speaker 1: really get to devotion really quickly. 1167 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,560 Speaker 2: Great question, so you can speed them up, but you 1168 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 2: don't skip, so you know, you'll generally see for example, 1169 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 2: securely attach people who have like a very secure upbringing 1170 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,480 Speaker 2: or who are are earned secure before getting into a relationship. 1171 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,040 Speaker 2: They can move into the dating quick quickly move through 1172 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 2: the dating. They know what they want, they're a little 1173 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 2: more clear. They might move from dating into honeymoon quickly. 1174 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:55,399 Speaker 2: And because securely attach people with healthy habits going into relationships, 1175 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 2: they naturally talk about their needs from the jump. They're 1176 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,600 Speaker 2: a little more vulnerable earlier on, and they're quite intentional. 1177 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,840 Speaker 2: They have healthy tools already that equipped them to navigate conflict. 1178 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,799 Speaker 2: You'll see a very short power struggle stage. Secure people 1179 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,800 Speaker 2: still go through power struggle stage, they just have a 1180 00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,719 Speaker 2: shorter version of it. And then if you're looking okay, 1181 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,960 Speaker 2: let's say somebody made a commitment within two months, so 1182 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 2: they went from dating into honeymoon. Honeymoon lasted a period 1183 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,360 Speaker 2: of time like let's say a year after the fact, 1184 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,200 Speaker 2: and then power struggle maybe another three months. Then you're 1185 00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,400 Speaker 2: in the rhythm another couple months and you're in the 1186 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 2: devotion quite quickly. So you can see like a shortened 1187 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,200 Speaker 2: time horizon for sure, especially if we date right, if 1188 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,760 Speaker 2: we have really healthy habits for conflict early on if 1189 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 2: we set ourselves up for success by having harder conversations 1190 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,720 Speaker 2: more vulnerably earlier and setting the tone that way. And 1191 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 2: so you can see a shortened version, but people will 1192 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,080 Speaker 2: still navigate each of the stages, and even people who 1193 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 2: get married and seem to be married from a secure base. 1194 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,320 Speaker 2: So let's say somebody for like religious reasons. I have 1195 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,400 Speaker 2: a friend, for example, and he proposed to his wife 1196 00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 2: I think around six months, and you know, and they 1197 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,160 Speaker 2: got married and they have a very healthy, loving relationship. 1198 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 2: But it was a quick quick turnaround, right, proposed in 1199 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:13,040 Speaker 2: six months, got married quickly, and even him people in 1200 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,280 Speaker 2: these types of situations they got married early, they had health, 1201 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,160 Speaker 2: like a really healthy foundation, but they still had their 1202 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 2: version of a power struggle stage at a point in 1203 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:21,920 Speaker 2: time right when they moved in together and got married. 1204 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,160 Speaker 2: They had to like navigate it for a minute and 1205 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,120 Speaker 2: have the harder conversations. So you'll still see each of 1206 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 2: the stages that we have. You can just see a 1207 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,160 Speaker 2: smaller time horizon for different external reasons at times. And 1208 00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,200 Speaker 2: of course that means that part of like the hack 1209 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 2: and the trick is you want to get your you know, 1210 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,200 Speaker 2: you're healing done right ahead of time, so you're ready 1211 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,200 Speaker 2: to date in a more secure way. Because it just 1212 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 2: makes the entire life cycle of a relationship so much easier. 1213 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,800 Speaker 2: And again it's part of the reason that statistically like 1214 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,200 Speaker 2: statistics show that roughly fifty percent of the population is 1215 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,400 Speaker 2: securely attached, although that seems to sort of be on 1216 00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 2: a downward trend, but when you see clearly attached people, 1217 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 2: they also report being in the long longest lasting relationships 1218 00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,560 Speaker 2: and being the most fulfilled and securely attached people. They 1219 00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 2: they tend to when they get into relationships, they say 1220 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 2: in them right, because they they they're well prepared for 1221 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,560 Speaker 2: these stages earlier on, and so. 1222 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,880 Speaker 1: They also choose better early on as well, because they like, 1223 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,840 Speaker 1: I like being about that, and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 1224 00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,280 Speaker 1: Like because they're not just going after like the emotionally 1225 00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: unavailable person, you know what I mean, they ve exactly 1226 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:29,600 Speaker 1: it all comes together. 1227 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,800 Speaker 2: And they they date really well, like they date with intention, 1228 00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 2: and they won't put up with much bs. Right, if 1229 00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,120 Speaker 2: somebody is treating them in a bad way, they're like, sorry, no, 1230 00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,680 Speaker 2: I don't I don't put up with this. And so 1231 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,720 Speaker 2: because they do that, they set themselves up for so 1232 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,520 Speaker 2: much success in the power struggle. So the power struggle 1233 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 2: is in this big, drawn out lasting thing. It's this 1234 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,320 Speaker 2: sort of short, little blip in the radar that's like 1235 00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 2: a little tiny roadbump, and they keep it moving. 1236 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, I have so many other questions that I 1237 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,960 Speaker 1: want to ask you, but like we we need to 1238 00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 1: wrap up the episode. My final question is the one 1239 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,040 Speaker 1: that we ask every single guest who comes on the show. 1240 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:05,920 Speaker 1: I think I've actually asked you this before, but I'm 1241 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,400 Speaker 1: going to ask you again, which is, what is the 1242 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,360 Speaker 1: one piece of advice you wish you had in your 1243 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,919 Speaker 1: twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked 1244 01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: about today. 1245 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,280 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's so funny, Juma, because as soon 1246 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 2: as you said it, I was like, I remembered exactly 1247 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 2: what I would say, which was what you asked me 1248 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,240 Speaker 2: the last time, and I said to be compassionate towards yourself. 1249 01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,600 Speaker 2: And I had this like flashback moment. Yeah, but you 1250 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,640 Speaker 2: know what I would say in my twenties, and I'll 1251 01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:31,240 Speaker 2: actually just say what helped me the most of my 1252 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,560 Speaker 2: twenties is, you know, I was somebody who was like 1253 01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,080 Speaker 2: I grew up in chaos, and I was fearful, avoidant, 1254 01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,880 Speaker 2: and I had all these like wounds and all of it. 1255 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:42,200 Speaker 2: And I had a lot of what you would call 1256 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,480 Speaker 2: injustice this as a kid, like lots of hard things 1257 01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:48,200 Speaker 2: and lots of really you know, pretty traumatic situations and 1258 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,080 Speaker 2: things like that. And when I was until my very 1259 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,520 Speaker 2: early twenties, I held on too that really tight. I 1260 01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:59,600 Speaker 2: was like, all these bad things happened to me, nobody understands, nobody, 1261 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,640 Speaker 2: and it was my story of myself. And I went 1262 01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:06,720 Speaker 2: through a sort of personal rock bottom in my life 1263 01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 2: where I was like, oh my god, nobody's gonna save me. 1264 01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,120 Speaker 2: I have to save me. I have to show up. 1265 01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,920 Speaker 2: And me holding on to all these hard things and 1266 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,080 Speaker 2: then justifying that I should numb out or hide from things, 1267 01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 2: or be angry or be you know, carry my herd 1268 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 2: around and have a chip on my shoulder. I'm only 1269 01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:25,920 Speaker 2: hurting me when I do that. And you know, one 1270 01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 2: of the most pivotal things that I did that I, 1271 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,640 Speaker 2: you know, thank God for, is I was like, oh, 1272 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,480 Speaker 2: I have to realize that my personal responsibility for life 1273 01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,760 Speaker 2: is my freedom, and it's not my fault that things 1274 01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,040 Speaker 2: happened to me, but it is my responsibility to change them, 1275 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,479 Speaker 2: and only I can do that. And I really poured 1276 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,240 Speaker 2: into like learning and researching and doing the work. And obviously, 1277 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,800 Speaker 2: like everybody who's listening to the show is learning and 1278 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,320 Speaker 2: researching and you know, and setting the tone to do that. 1279 01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,680 Speaker 2: And I think pouring into really doing the work. If 1280 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,000 Speaker 2: you come from like a hard background of relationships or 1281 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,160 Speaker 2: tough things, it doesn't have to be your story for 1282 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 2: the whole rest of your life. It can literally be like, Okay, great, 1283 01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,040 Speaker 2: I'm choosing to take responsibility for my own conditioning even 1284 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,920 Speaker 2: though I didn't choose it, and work to rewire, work 1285 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:10,600 Speaker 2: to recondition, work to heal. And I really think that 1286 01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,960 Speaker 2: that's like the greatest gift that people can give to themselves. 1287 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:14,640 Speaker 2: And it just opens up the world for like a 1288 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:16,160 Speaker 2: future on your terms going. 1289 01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 1: Forward, and it is freedom the way, and it is 1290 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,840 Speaker 1: freedom and it's for freedom. Well, thank you again for 1291 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,320 Speaker 1: coming on. I'm going to make sure that we leave 1292 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 1: all your links to your school and your courses and 1293 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 1: you and your YouTube, like every way and which way 1294 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,200 Speaker 1: and which place you can find Taste. I will make 1295 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,520 Speaker 1: sure that you can find her because I love what 1296 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,000 Speaker 1: you do. And I love your work and how you 1297 01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:41,840 Speaker 1: explain things, so thank you again. As always, you can 1298 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,960 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. Make sure 1299 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,680 Speaker 1: that you are following along. It's the middle of December 1300 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,680 Speaker 1: guest month and we have so many other fantastic guests 1301 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:53,640 Speaker 1: that I cannot wait for you guys to hear from, 1302 01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,320 Speaker 1: So if you're not already following us, you don't want 1303 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,880 Speaker 1: to miss listening to them and hearing from them as well. 1304 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,800 Speaker 1: But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle 1305 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,200 Speaker 1: to yourself, and we will talk very very soon. 1306 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:09,200 Speaker 2: M