WEBVTT - #048 Jason Flom with Jimmie Gardner 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.080 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.200 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.040 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.800 they are breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.360 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.519 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.559 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.640 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.200 happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.720 that could never happen to me, But. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:52.600 They can. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.000 This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:18.120 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Today. I 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.800 have a unusually strong group of guests. And I say 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.120 group because, first of all, the star of our show, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:28.959 who was on his way to being a star baseball 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.440 player actually before this insanity happened, is Jimmy Gardner. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:33.080 Jimmy C. 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.400 Gardner shares his story of being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.560 for almost twenty seven years. 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.160 Jimmy Garden was a Charleston, West Virginia minor league baseball player, 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.840 and he was accused of sexual assault in nineteen eighty seven. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.279 This case was overturned of investigators spout out the state's 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.720 expert lied on the witness stand, but his fight for 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:55.120 justice is far from over. 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:57.400 Jimmy, Welcome to wrongful Conviction. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:58.640 Thank you for having me. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:04.680 Jason Bolden, his attorney, is here. Scott, welcome to ronful Conviction. 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.320 Thank you for having us. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:11.160 And a very unusual occurrence is happening here at Wrongful 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.920 Conviction today. This is a great pleasure for me and 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.520 an honor to have you hear your honor because we 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.360 have the honorable Leslie Abrams here, federal judge from Georgia. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:23.960 So judge welcome, Thank you very much. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.200 So Jimmy, Yes, Now, first of all, let me just contextualize, 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:34.720 because obviously you can't see, but Jimmy may well be 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.840 the handsomest guy we've ever had on the show. 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.280 He's six' four and looks like a movie. Star but 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:41.960 you were actually a. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:46.560 Pitcher, yes in The cubs organization is an interesting story, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:47.520 Too BUT i want to go. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.800 Further back than, that it's. Okay so where did you grow? 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:51.840 Up how did you grow? 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.040 Up how was your life before it really was going 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:57.720 to a place that all of, us like, me as a, 0:02:57.800 --> 0:02:58.800 CHILD i fantasized. 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:00.679 ABOUT i wanted that. LIFE i wanted to play for 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:01.600 the for The. 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.320 Mets, yes quite, okay and then it turned and then 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:05.200 it turned into a horror. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.880 Show but how did it? Start, Yeah i'll take you 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.720 back to the very. BEGINNINGS i am originally born In, Dawson. 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.240 Georgia we left WHEN i WAS i say, Two my 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.760 mother says three years, old So i'll go with. Three 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.000 we left and went To, Tampa. Florida and In Tampa, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.720 florida that's WHERE i was raised. AT i went through 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.160 The Tampa Florida school, System Hillsborough County School. SYSTEM i 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:31.320 played sports in The Tampa bay. Area, football, baseball, basketball 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.519 just a variety of sports. 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.360 Where you were starting the other sports as. Well imagine 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.040 you were a starring. Baseball i'm not gonna say. STAR 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.520 i Mean i'm gonna be humble and SAY i was 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:46.119 playing amongst, great great athletes In, Tampa. FLORIDA i think 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.040 the best in the world at those. Times in the 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:50.480 in the seventies early. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.560 Eighties, yes so you had A i mean your childhood was. 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.640 Good, childhood childhood was, Great, Okay, Yeah Tampa. FLORIDA i 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.960 strongly let people Know i'm from The Bay area and 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.960 basically what you're seeing today is just representation of EVERYTHING 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.360 i came up Through Tampa. Florida, coaches my family, members great, 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.000 aunts great, uncles i, mean, cousins just my entire. Life 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.279 i've been around nothing but positivity and just total just 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.800 total acceptance and uplifting of people that were just good. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.880 People and That's Tampa. Florida so you chose, baseball, yes 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.800 how to go from? There, WELL i got drafted out 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.479 Of Tampa Baifacational Technico High school in nineteen eighty four 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.160 by The Chicago. Cubs and it's a little ironic because 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.200 playing in nineteen seventy, six seventy seven with The Little League, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.919 CUBS i told my, coach Coach Zeke god bless his. 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.479 Soul Coach Zeke Sai jimmy c you are the best 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:48.320 in the. World and that was one of his favorite. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.200 Things he tell, guys you're the best in the. World 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.280 AND i told, HIM i, Said, Coach i'm gonna play 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.080 for the Real cubs one, day and he, SAID i 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.160 know you. Will that was in nineteen seventy. Six so 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.560 in nineteen eighty FOUR i got drafted by The Chicago 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.640 cubs AND i played minor league with The Chicago cubs 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.440 for four. Seasons and out of those four, SEASONS i 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.359 had some good, seasons met some good. Guys played nineteen 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.120 eighty four With Greg maddox In, Pakeville. Kentucky played With Jamie, 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.680 Moarrior Joe. Girardi just a lot of, names a lot 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.960 of GUYS i played with and had opportunities to just 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:23.120 interact with throughout my. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.160 Career and for people who are listening who may not 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.640 be baseball fans or maybe, young these. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:28.600 Are legends that we're talking. 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.919 About you're just reeling off names that are, like you, 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.880 know The hall Of, fame one after the. Other so 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.240 there you are waiting to get the call to go 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.080 to get get tapped on the shoulder and go to 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.080 the big, leagues you, know and where The cubs uniform 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.640 and regular field and the whole, thing and then everything 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.680 goes horribly wrong in a way that, IS i think 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.920 to the average person. Unimaginable, yes and in your. Case 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.719 it's very clear that what happened to you was deliberate 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.560 on the part of not just one, person but several people, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.760 who for Reasons i'll never, understand just decided that they 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:08.640 were going to pin, horrendous inexplicable. Crime yes on, you 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.600 did you know anything about this. Crime it's a crime 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.159 that happened In West, virginia. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.440 Right, yes this crime happened in nineteen eighty. SEVEN i 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.120 was playing for The Charleston wheelers In, Charleston West virginia 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.599 during the. Season i'm going to say In may the 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:28.640 first crime, occurred and then In june the next crime, 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.479 occurred and the crime was a sexual assault against one 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.480 white woman In may and another white woman In. 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.760 June you left that an important details were talking about 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.360 at eighty six year old woman and her, daughter, right 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:40.720 a sixty year old woman. 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.360 Right in one, case eighty something year old woman and 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.400 her daughter was. Assaulted her mother was beat, up but 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.159 the woman was. Assaulted in the other, case the woman 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.760 was about forty something and she was assaulted and beat. 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.480 Up and this all came about the description that the 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.520 women gave were that this guy was a light to 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:07.040 medium Complexion African american about six foot, tall. 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.279 Right and for people listening at, home that wouldn't be 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:10.520 a way THAT i would describe. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:10.600 You. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.240 JIMMY i, Mean jimmy is a dark Skinned African american, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.600 man was about six y four and looks. Taller so, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.120 yeah the description was pretty. Off and it was a 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.200 description that was given by more than one. Person and 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.200 we know descriptions can are not. Perfect the mind is 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.680 not a. Camera but still that didn't match, up, no. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.880 Sir and during the, SEASON i, mean when these crimes, 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:36.800 occurred these horrific crimes, occurred The Charleston Police department was 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:42.520 basically gathering information and rounding up blacks from all over the. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.000 City there were over one hundred AND i believe one 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:49.560 hundred and forty or one hundred Plus African americans male that 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.200 were rounded up and taken to the police department fingerprinted 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:56.600 photos and things of that, order including myself in about 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.120 six black guys off the baseball. Team all of us 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.680 were actually taken to the police department fingerprint. Photoed they 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.960 told me nothing. Match this was in nineteen eighty. Seven 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.640 fast forward to nineteen eighty, NINE i was confronted by 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.640 policemen From Charleston West virginia saying that my prints now. Match, 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.720 well one print now matches from a crime, scene but 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.720 it no longer was a thumb. Print it was now 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.760 a left middle. Fingerprint they just made a mistake on 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.680 THE i guess the definition of the print or characterizing the. 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:33.679 Print so that's what connects, this, Right, yes so they. 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.200 And they said they rechecked my prints and now they matched. 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.120 Magically, yes they had the wrong, finger they had the 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:40.800 wrong Dest. 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.920 What they said at the time that the individuals that 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.720 were in the department didn't have the knowledge of doing. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.320 Fingerprints, well and that's an interesting. Thing It's. 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:49.760 SCOT i like to turn to you for a second, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:54.560 too because we know that the standards that are maintained 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:59.720 for fingerprint analysis are shoddy at, best, right. 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.800 Especially in smaller towns across the. 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.360 Country The, Cherlston West Virginia Police department or the state 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.840 police in this, case they had the. Expertise they certainly. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.280 Did they just had a bad. Actor the chief zerologists 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.400 for that, department who had been there for several, years 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:20.080 was known within the department to either falsify test results 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.040 or to be sloppy with his, analysis as well as 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.360 in his. Testimony so you have the test, results, right 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.760 they get turned over to the. Prosecutor. Right sometimes they 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:34.360 get challenged by defense council. Experts sometimes they. Don't most 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.600 offenders don't have enough money to hire an expert to 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.720 do that type of critical. Analysis but in this particular 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.880 case at The State department, lab it would later be 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.360 found that the chief erroologist was not only, indicted but 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.280 investigated at the federal level as well as at the state, 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:55.079 level and found that he had not, misinterpreted but purposely 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.600 testified falsely on the stand of at least twenty more 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.280 in individuals Like, jimmy and then secondly that there was 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.800 knowledge of others that he worked with that he falsified 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.240 test results in order to make the analysis match that 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.200 the prosecutors used in state court to convict individuals Like Jimmy. 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.720 Gardner, Right and That's i'm so glad you're talking. 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:21.360 About this Was Fred, zey right in absolutely, infamous terrible 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.040 let to talk about a bad. ACTOR i, mean that's too, kind, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.240 Right this is a guy who was. Vicious he was 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.360 deliberately willfully not BECAUSE i think, so not BECAUSE i say, 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.200 so but because he was convicted of doing. That it 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.440 was sence to four to twelve years in. Prison that's 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.880 such a troubling fact, because as you, said what is 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:39.680 a jury to? 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:39.960 Do? 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.800 Right they may may not be sophisticated. People they're probably not. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.320 Scientists you got a guy Like, jimmy Who's i'm guessing 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.160 you were represented by a public defender at that, Time. 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.040 Yes public defunder that was his first, case. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:54.640 First case out of law. 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.480 School, yes, Sir, Wow, okay that's a plot twist. Too 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.200 so what is either of you, guys or even You Judge, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.280 abrams what is a person to? Do like if you're 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:06.800 sitting at home and you're, going, well IF i go 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:08.480 on a jury and a guy gets up there AND 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.560 i don't know if he's lying or, not but there's 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.000 nobody to tell me any, different how is somebody even 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:14.600 supposed to get to the Truth when you have a 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.160 guy like that who's up there Going i'm accredited from 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.040 this university AND i went to, this AND i went to, 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:20.520 that what's a person to? 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.920 Do from my point of, view that's where the pre 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.040 trial process comes. In that's why we have the adversarial. 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.920 System if you have a good defense, ATTORNEY i want 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:31.360 to step back and speak a couple of steps back 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.160 Because i've read the filings in this, case BUT i 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.400 wasn't involved in this. Case but WHEN i look at, 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.480 it to even get to the point where you put 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.640 it before the, jury that's why we have all these 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.840 processes in. Place that's why prosecutors have a duty to 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.560 turn over any type of exculpatory. Information the prosecutor's. Office 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.720 everyone knew about Fred zane before this trial even. Happened 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.120 so that's a Clear brad that's a Clear brady. Violation 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.880 and as far AS i know that information was never turned, 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.360 over you know that yourseroologists has had problems and have 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.560 the credentials that he's supposed to have if you're going 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.320 to use. It first of, ALL i was a federal 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.360 prosecutor at one. POINT i would not have used that. 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.240 Information but if you are going to use, it you 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.640 have a duty to tell the other. Side if your 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.559 client is telling you they told me that the blood 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.040 type didn't, match and now it, does then the defense 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.199 attorney should have investigated. That so when you're talking about 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.040 how does a jury know what to? Do we do 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.920 have the system when it works, right when it's not 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:32.400 deliberately being. Undermined has these stops in place where that 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.959 testimony never should have come. In a jury never should 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:36.559 have been confronted with. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.480 That they had no chance of getting it. Right i'm 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.280 guessing you would probably, say as one of the exon 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.400 oraigation strong as he, said you, KNOW i would have convicted, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.400 me you, know with the evidence that was presented and 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.720 the lack of defense that my attorney, MOUNTED i would 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:49.240 have convicted. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.280 ME i, mean maybe you feel the same way in your. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.400 Case, NO i don't feel that. Way my jury deliberated 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.080 for four and a half. Days, wow they were out 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.839 and they'd always come back and say were, deadlocked and 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:03.800 in the beginning of that deadlock was in favor of 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.679 me from, US i guess. Inquiring but that process went 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:09.800 on for four and a half. 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.839 Days that's got to be four and a half days 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.040 of absolute. TORTURE i, mean as it. 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.120 Was but to hear my attorney, saying you, know this 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:20.360 is in our, favor. 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.400 And how would he Know he just got out of 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:24.480 law school that men. 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.600 Day to come back with a decision of guilty on one, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.080 case not guilty on the other, case which WAS i 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:36.600 believe a compromise verdict was that was. DEVASTATING i mean 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.400 it even gets worse than. That to add salt to the, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.440 INJURY i go back to the county jail and someone 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.720 has broken into my cell and took my family, photo 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.240 my pictures of my, family my address book with my. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.040 Numbers they've called my lady friend at the, time you, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.080 know that was compounded with the guilty verdic that was 0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:58.480 a rough. 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.280 Day oh my. God you. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.520 Know one of the THINGS i harp on and that obsess, 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.320 on is that we have an unequal system of justice 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:05.560 in this. 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:06.680 Country right with. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.560 The presumption though most of us who are on juris 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.040 or just the average man and, woman we presume the 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:19.920 stability of this institution called, justice called, Prosecutors states attorney's, 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:24.080 OFFICES us attorney's, offices we presume we rely on it 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.720 in those systems if they're not reliable or if those 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.200 systems break, down and they break down more often than we. 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.080 Think in regard to a case Like Jimmy, garden there 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.840 was a complete breakdown of fairness and justice and an 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.400 even handed. Approach whether it was the, prosecutor whether it 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.720 was a public defender who first case was a double 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.240 assault case like, this whether it was the judge who 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.600 forced him to go to trial before this young defense 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.640 attorney was. Ready whether it was the prison system and 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.680 the guards who worked the courtroom who went back and 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.880 presumably took and stole his, stuff we can't zoom justice 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:05.360 in every. Jurisdiction there are justice systems that are unjust 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.000 against whether they're, young poor black men or young poor 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.800 white men were the system doesn't. Work i'm not surprised 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:16.240 That Jimmy gardner was convicted because he was convicted before 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.760 he sat down and even tried the, case because those 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.320 systems not only, failed but those systems were unjust and 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.080 hell been on being unjust towards. Him And i'm comfortable 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.240 saying that as his attorney post conviction on his. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.600 Part where you didn't have a post, release, rather. 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.200 You didn't have a hope in, HELL i mean you 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.280 really between all the FACTORS A scott just pointed, OUT i, 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.360 mean you were. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.680 Done it's actually a miracle that they deliberated for four 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:41.240 and a half. 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.640 DAYS i would have been less surprised if you said 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.880 four and a half hours or forty five, minutes because 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.240 they were not presented with the facts at. All SO 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.440 i give some credit to the jury that they actually 0:15:51.480 --> 0:16:05.680 spent that much, time but that didn't help. YOU i, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:10.560 mean what an extreme. Right you're going from having all 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.120 star dreams from the dream LIKE i said that many of, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.120 us Most american boys grow up with, right which is 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.200 playing baseball in the major, leagues which was actually within, 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.320 reach and all of a, sudden you're going from pretty 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:28.120 close to the tippy top to the absolute depths of. 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.080 Hell can you describe the? MOMENT i, mean. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:35.160 You were there for four and a half, days twisting 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.040 in the. Wind every day you showed up in court 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.080 wishing hope and praying whatever your thing. Is then you 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.480 not only get, convicted but sentenced to essentially life, sentence, 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.480 right one hundred and ten years in, PRISONEL i, mean 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:48.560 what was that? 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:49.000 Moment? 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.040 LIKE i, Mean i'll back it up a little. Bit 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:57.240 WHEN i first arrived Into, Charleston West. VIRGINIA i can 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.400 still recall all the guys in the, jail says telling. 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.320 Me they called Me. Florida they, Said. Florida you can't win. 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.359 Here you just don't go to trial and win. Here 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.040 And i'm telling the Guys i'm not guilty of these. Crimes. 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.280 Man they, said, man but you can't. Win you don't 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.560 win In Charleston West. Virginia and at this, Time i'm 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.199 knowing THAT i did not do these, crimes AND i 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.760 don't have that worry that you guys are talking. About 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:24.480 you guys are talking. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:25.199 About you. 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.320 KNOW i had the prosecution offer ten years to, me 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.040 and my lawyer, said he, said Mister, garden this is 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.120 the best deal that you will ever. Get these are 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.720 ten years for these type of. Charges they, said you 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.200 go to, trial you'll get ten times. This he, said 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.960 you'll get beyond. That he, said this is the best. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.639 Deal he tried everything to get me to take a. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.159 DEAL i, SAID i didn't do the. Crimes i'm not 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.920 guilty of these. Crimes i'm not pleading guilty to. Anything 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:58.000 and those ten years turned into one hundred and ten 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.920 years ONCE i was. Convicted and going through that process 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:07.720 UNTIL i was actually convicted AND i heard the jury say, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:12.160 GUILTY i did not think THAT i would be found. 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:17.640 Guilty that's what made it such a shock going, back, 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.879 because AS i, say the attorney's telling, me the longer 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.040 they stay, out this is excellent for. Us you, know 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.760 this is. Excellent they can't come to an agreement and 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.600 the judge steady sends them. Back you gotta go. Back they, 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.399 said we, judge we're. Dead we're at a position we 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.000 can't move. Forward you gotta go. Back how long is a? 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:37.360 Trial probably a, week and in the END i was 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.679 actually convicted and sent it to one hundred and ten, 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.040 years which was a, shocker to say the. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.320 Least to go from that and to come to where 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.119 you are, now how did you manage to bounce? 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.520 Back how did you manage to? Persevere how did you 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:51.960 manage to? 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.840 FIGHT i, mean it's a, process and that's not a 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.800 process that's done. Overnight at that, point AFTER i was 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.600 CON i MEAN i was in, shock BUT i knew 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.000 in my MIND i was in for a. FIGHT i 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.240 knew that there's no time for crying and laying. Down 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.520 that's just the individual THAT i am and my. Upbringing you, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.440 know it's not time to really cry and. SULK i 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.639 know it's time to fight for my. Life AND i 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:26.040 GUESS i had been bred for this. Adversity adversity is 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:33.120 something That i've had to overcome and basically outlast my entire. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:38.479 Life and this guilty, verdict this guilty, verdict was a 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:42.879 slam to, me BUT i just know it changed my entire. 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.720 Life the young lady THAT i was dating at the. 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.159 TIME i had to let her know that our relationship 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.400 was over and let her know That i'm In, Charleston 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.280 West virginia with my life basically just taking from, me 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.119 AND i gotta. Fight SO i ended a relationship in 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:03.200 nineteen eighty well nineteen ninety that began in nineteen eighty, 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:08.119 three and that was a difficult, decision BUT i just 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.800 ended that BECAUSE i knew Now i'm In, Charleston West, 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.560 virginia a young man From, Tampa. Florida i'm used to 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:19.560 being in a totally different environment and Now I'm, Charleston West, 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.160 virginia where it's ninety eight percent white In West virginia 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:28.439 and two percent black at that, time which was that 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:32.520 was major to. Me BUT i have to put in 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.800 my mind this is live or. Die SO i can 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.480 still recall in the courtroom telling my mother and my, 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.040 grandmother don't. Cry you, Know i'm telling don't. Cry do 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.400 not let them see you. Cry don't show. Tears i'm 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.440 not showing tears at this. Moment this is a time 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.199 THAT i must be, strong AND i wanted them to be, 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:55.480 strong SO i just remained strong for. Them mostly of, 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:57.720 course WHEN i got back to the, CELL i had 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:04.280 to let it. Out but you, KNOW i, mean it's almost. 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.160 Indescribable it. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.119 IS i, mean it's impossible for any of us to understand. 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:15.159 It so you end up going to maximum security prison 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:15.560 In West. 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.560