Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.
Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,
Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have
Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but
Speaker 2: they are breaking the lord.
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.
Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.
Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something
Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,
Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.
Speaker 3: They can.
Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Today. I
Speaker 5: have a unusually strong group of guests. And I say
Speaker 5: group because, first of all, the star of our show,
Speaker 5: who was on his way to being a star baseball
Speaker 5: player actually before this insanity happened, is Jimmy Gardner.
Speaker 3: Jimmy C.
Speaker 6: Gardner shares his story of being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated
Speaker 6: for almost twenty seven years.
Speaker 7: Jimmy Garden was a Charleston, West Virginia minor league baseball player,
Speaker 7: and he was accused of sexual assault in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 7: This case was overturned of investigators spout out the state's
Speaker 7: expert lied on the witness stand, but his fight for
Speaker 7: justice is far from over.
Speaker 4: Jimmy, Welcome to wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: Jason Bolden, his attorney, is here. Scott, welcome to ronful Conviction.
Speaker 8: Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5: And a very unusual occurrence is happening here at Wrongful
Speaker 5: Conviction today. This is a great pleasure for me and
Speaker 5: an honor to have you hear your honor because we
Speaker 5: have the honorable Leslie Abrams here, federal judge from Georgia.
Speaker 4: So judge welcome, Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: So Jimmy, Yes, Now, first of all, let me just contextualize,
Speaker 5: because obviously you can't see, but Jimmy may well be
Speaker 5: the handsomest guy we've ever had on the show.
Speaker 4: He's six' four and looks like a movie. Star but
Speaker 4: you were actually a.
Speaker 5: Pitcher, yes in The cubs organization is an interesting story,
Speaker 5: Too BUT i want to go.
Speaker 4: Further back than, that it's. Okay so where did you grow?
Speaker 4: Up how did you grow?
Speaker 5: Up how was your life before it really was going
Speaker 5: to a place that all of, us like, me as a,
Speaker 5: CHILD i fantasized.
Speaker 4: ABOUT i wanted that. LIFE i wanted to play for
Speaker 4: the for The.
Speaker 5: Mets, yes quite, okay and then it turned and then
Speaker 5: it turned into a horror.
Speaker 3: Show but how did it? Start, Yeah i'll take you
Speaker 3: back to the very. BEGINNINGS i am originally born In, Dawson.
Speaker 3: Georgia we left WHEN i WAS i say, Two my
Speaker 3: mother says three years, old So i'll go with. Three
Speaker 3: we left and went To, Tampa. Florida and In Tampa,
Speaker 3: florida that's WHERE i was raised. AT i went through
Speaker 3: The Tampa Florida school, System Hillsborough County School. SYSTEM i
Speaker 3: played sports in The Tampa bay. Area, football, baseball, basketball
Speaker 3: just a variety of sports.
Speaker 5: Where you were starting the other sports as. Well imagine
Speaker 5: you were a starring. Baseball i'm not gonna say. STAR
Speaker 5: i Mean i'm gonna be humble and SAY i was
Speaker 5: playing amongst, great great athletes In, Tampa. FLORIDA i think
Speaker 5: the best in the world at those. Times in the
Speaker 5: in the seventies early.
Speaker 4: Eighties, yes so you had A i mean your childhood was.
Speaker 3: Good, childhood childhood was, Great, Okay, Yeah Tampa. FLORIDA i
Speaker 3: strongly let people Know i'm from The Bay area and
Speaker 3: basically what you're seeing today is just representation of EVERYTHING
Speaker 3: i came up Through Tampa. Florida, coaches my family, members great,
Speaker 3: aunts great, uncles i, mean, cousins just my entire. Life
Speaker 3: i've been around nothing but positivity and just total just
Speaker 3: total acceptance and uplifting of people that were just good.
Speaker 3: People and That's Tampa. Florida so you chose, baseball, yes
Speaker 3: how to go from? There, WELL i got drafted out
Speaker 3: Of Tampa Baifacational Technico High school in nineteen eighty four
Speaker 3: by The Chicago. Cubs and it's a little ironic because
Speaker 3: playing in nineteen seventy, six seventy seven with The Little League,
Speaker 3: CUBS i told my, coach Coach Zeke god bless his.
Speaker 3: Soul Coach Zeke Sai jimmy c you are the best
Speaker 3: in the. World and that was one of his favorite.
Speaker 3: Things he tell, guys you're the best in the. World
Speaker 3: AND i told, HIM i, Said, Coach i'm gonna play
Speaker 3: for the Real cubs one, day and he, SAID i
Speaker 3: know you. Will that was in nineteen seventy. Six so
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty FOUR i got drafted by The Chicago
Speaker 3: cubs AND i played minor league with The Chicago cubs
Speaker 3: for four. Seasons and out of those four, SEASONS i
Speaker 3: had some good, seasons met some good. Guys played nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty four With Greg maddox In, Pakeville. Kentucky played With Jamie,
Speaker 3: Moarrior Joe. Girardi just a lot of, names a lot
Speaker 3: of GUYS i played with and had opportunities to just
Speaker 3: interact with throughout my.
Speaker 5: Career and for people who are listening who may not
Speaker 5: be baseball fans or maybe, young these.
Speaker 4: Are legends that we're talking.
Speaker 5: About you're just reeling off names that are, like you,
Speaker 5: know The hall Of, fame one after the. Other so
Speaker 5: there you are waiting to get the call to go
Speaker 5: to get get tapped on the shoulder and go to
Speaker 5: the big, leagues you, know and where The cubs uniform
Speaker 5: and regular field and the whole, thing and then everything
Speaker 5: goes horribly wrong in a way that, IS i think
Speaker 5: to the average person. Unimaginable, yes and in your. Case
Speaker 5: it's very clear that what happened to you was deliberate
Speaker 5: on the part of not just one, person but several people,
Speaker 5: who for Reasons i'll never, understand just decided that they
Speaker 5: were going to pin, horrendous inexplicable. Crime yes on, you
Speaker 5: did you know anything about this. Crime it's a crime
Speaker 5: that happened In West, virginia.
Speaker 3: Right, yes this crime happened in nineteen eighty. SEVEN i
Speaker 3: was playing for The Charleston wheelers In, Charleston West virginia
Speaker 3: during the. Season i'm going to say In may the
Speaker 3: first crime, occurred and then In june the next crime,
Speaker 3: occurred and the crime was a sexual assault against one
Speaker 3: white woman In may and another white woman In.
Speaker 5: June you left that an important details were talking about
Speaker 5: at eighty six year old woman and her, daughter, right
Speaker 5: a sixty year old woman.
Speaker 3: Right in one, case eighty something year old woman and
Speaker 3: her daughter was. Assaulted her mother was beat, up but
Speaker 3: the woman was. Assaulted in the other, case the woman
Speaker 3: was about forty something and she was assaulted and beat.
Speaker 3: Up and this all came about the description that the
Speaker 3: women gave were that this guy was a light to
Speaker 3: medium Complexion African american about six foot, tall.
Speaker 5: Right and for people listening at, home that wouldn't be
Speaker 5: a way THAT i would describe.
Speaker 4: You.
Speaker 5: JIMMY i, Mean jimmy is a dark Skinned African american,
Speaker 5: man was about six y four and looks. Taller so,
Speaker 5: yeah the description was pretty. Off and it was a
Speaker 5: description that was given by more than one. Person and
Speaker 5: we know descriptions can are not. Perfect the mind is
Speaker 5: not a. Camera but still that didn't match, up, no.
Speaker 3: Sir and during the, SEASON i, mean when these crimes,
Speaker 3: occurred these horrific crimes, occurred The Charleston Police department was
Speaker 3: basically gathering information and rounding up blacks from all over the.
Speaker 3: City there were over one hundred AND i believe one
Speaker 3: hundred and forty or one hundred Plus African americans male that
Speaker 3: were rounded up and taken to the police department fingerprinted
Speaker 3: photos and things of that, order including myself in about
Speaker 3: six black guys off the baseball. Team all of us
Speaker 3: were actually taken to the police department fingerprint. Photoed they
Speaker 3: told me nothing. Match this was in nineteen eighty. Seven
Speaker 3: fast forward to nineteen eighty, NINE i was confronted by
Speaker 3: policemen From Charleston West virginia saying that my prints now. Match,
Speaker 3: well one print now matches from a crime, scene but
Speaker 3: it no longer was a thumb. Print it was now
Speaker 3: a left middle. Fingerprint they just made a mistake on
Speaker 3: THE i guess the definition of the print or characterizing the.
Speaker 4: Print so that's what connects, this, Right, yes so they.
Speaker 3: And they said they rechecked my prints and now they matched.
Speaker 4: Magically, yes they had the wrong, finger they had the
Speaker 4: wrong Dest.
Speaker 3: What they said at the time that the individuals that
Speaker 3: were in the department didn't have the knowledge of doing.
Speaker 4: Fingerprints, well and that's an interesting. Thing It's.
Speaker 5: SCOT i like to turn to you for a second,
Speaker 5: too because we know that the standards that are maintained
Speaker 5: for fingerprint analysis are shoddy at, best, right.
Speaker 4: Especially in smaller towns across the.
Speaker 8: Country The, Cherlston West Virginia Police department or the state
Speaker 8: police in this, case they had the. Expertise they certainly.
Speaker 8: Did they just had a bad. Actor the chief zerologists
Speaker 8: for that, department who had been there for several, years
Speaker 8: was known within the department to either falsify test results
Speaker 8: or to be sloppy with his, analysis as well as
Speaker 8: in his. Testimony so you have the test, results, right
Speaker 8: they get turned over to the. Prosecutor. Right sometimes they
Speaker 8: get challenged by defense council. Experts sometimes they. Don't most
Speaker 8: offenders don't have enough money to hire an expert to
Speaker 8: do that type of critical. Analysis but in this particular
Speaker 8: case at The State department, lab it would later be
Speaker 8: found that the chief erroologist was not only, indicted but
Speaker 8: investigated at the federal level as well as at the state,
Speaker 8: level and found that he had not, misinterpreted but purposely
Speaker 8: testified falsely on the stand of at least twenty more
Speaker 8: in individuals Like, jimmy and then secondly that there was
Speaker 8: knowledge of others that he worked with that he falsified
Speaker 8: test results in order to make the analysis match that
Speaker 8: the prosecutors used in state court to convict individuals Like Jimmy.
Speaker 4: Gardner, Right and That's i'm so glad you're talking.
Speaker 5: About this Was Fred, zey right in absolutely, infamous terrible
Speaker 5: let to talk about a bad. ACTOR i, mean that's too, kind,
Speaker 5: Right this is a guy who was. Vicious he was
Speaker 5: deliberately willfully not BECAUSE i think, so not BECAUSE i say,
Speaker 5: so but because he was convicted of doing. That it
Speaker 5: was sence to four to twelve years in. Prison that's
Speaker 5: such a troubling fact, because as you, said what is
Speaker 5: a jury to?
Speaker 7: Do?
Speaker 5: Right they may may not be sophisticated. People they're probably not.
Speaker 5: Scientists you got a guy Like, jimmy Who's i'm guessing
Speaker 5: you were represented by a public defender at that, Time.
Speaker 3: Yes public defunder that was his first, case.
Speaker 4: First case out of law.
Speaker 5: School, yes, Sir, Wow, okay that's a plot twist. Too
Speaker 5: so what is either of you, guys or even You Judge,
Speaker 5: abrams what is a person to? Do like if you're
Speaker 5: sitting at home and you're, going, well IF i go
Speaker 5: on a jury and a guy gets up there AND
Speaker 5: i don't know if he's lying or, not but there's
Speaker 5: nobody to tell me any, different how is somebody even
Speaker 5: supposed to get to the Truth when you have a
Speaker 5: guy like that who's up there Going i'm accredited from
Speaker 5: this university AND i went to, this AND i went to,
Speaker 5: that what's a person to?
Speaker 6: Do from my point of, view that's where the pre
Speaker 6: trial process comes. In that's why we have the adversarial.
Speaker 6: System if you have a good defense, ATTORNEY i want
Speaker 6: to step back and speak a couple of steps back
Speaker 6: Because i've read the filings in this, case BUT i
Speaker 6: wasn't involved in this. Case but WHEN i look at,
Speaker 6: it to even get to the point where you put
Speaker 6: it before the, jury that's why we have all these
Speaker 6: processes in. Place that's why prosecutors have a duty to
Speaker 6: turn over any type of exculpatory. Information the prosecutor's. Office
Speaker 6: everyone knew about Fred zane before this trial even. Happened
Speaker 6: so that's a Clear brad that's a Clear brady. Violation
Speaker 6: and as far AS i know that information was never turned,
Speaker 6: over you know that yourseroologists has had problems and have
Speaker 6: the credentials that he's supposed to have if you're going
Speaker 6: to use. It first of, ALL i was a federal
Speaker 6: prosecutor at one. POINT i would not have used that.
Speaker 6: Information but if you are going to use, it you
Speaker 6: have a duty to tell the other. Side if your
Speaker 6: client is telling you they told me that the blood
Speaker 6: type didn't, match and now it, does then the defense
Speaker 6: attorney should have investigated. That so when you're talking about
Speaker 6: how does a jury know what to? Do we do
Speaker 6: have the system when it works, right when it's not
Speaker 6: deliberately being. Undermined has these stops in place where that
Speaker 6: testimony never should have come. In a jury never should
Speaker 6: have been confronted with.
Speaker 5: That they had no chance of getting it. Right i'm
Speaker 5: guessing you would probably, say as one of the exon
Speaker 5: oraigation strong as he, said you, KNOW i would have convicted,
Speaker 5: me you, know with the evidence that was presented and
Speaker 5: the lack of defense that my attorney, MOUNTED i would
Speaker 5: have convicted.
Speaker 4: ME i, mean maybe you feel the same way in your.
Speaker 3: Case, NO i don't feel that. Way my jury deliberated
Speaker 3: for four and a half. Days, wow they were out
Speaker 3: and they'd always come back and say were, deadlocked and
Speaker 3: in the beginning of that deadlock was in favor of
Speaker 3: me from, US i guess. Inquiring but that process went
Speaker 3: on for four and a half.
Speaker 4: Days that's got to be four and a half days
Speaker 4: of absolute. TORTURE i, mean as it.
Speaker 3: Was but to hear my attorney, saying you, know this
Speaker 3: is in our, favor.
Speaker 4: And how would he Know he just got out of
Speaker 4: law school that men.
Speaker 3: Day to come back with a decision of guilty on one,
Speaker 3: case not guilty on the other, case which WAS i
Speaker 3: believe a compromise verdict was that was. DEVASTATING i mean
Speaker 3: it even gets worse than. That to add salt to the,
Speaker 3: INJURY i go back to the county jail and someone
Speaker 3: has broken into my cell and took my family, photo
Speaker 3: my pictures of my, family my address book with my.
Speaker 3: Numbers they've called my lady friend at the, time you,
Speaker 3: know that was compounded with the guilty verdic that was
Speaker 3: a rough.
Speaker 4: Day oh my. God you.
Speaker 5: Know one of the THINGS i harp on and that obsess,
Speaker 5: on is that we have an unequal system of justice
Speaker 5: in this.
Speaker 4: Country right with.
Speaker 8: The presumption though most of us who are on juris
Speaker 8: or just the average man and, woman we presume the
Speaker 8: stability of this institution called, justice called, Prosecutors states attorney's,
Speaker 8: OFFICES us attorney's, offices we presume we rely on it
Speaker 8: in those systems if they're not reliable or if those
Speaker 8: systems break, down and they break down more often than we.
Speaker 8: Think in regard to a case Like Jimmy, garden there
Speaker 8: was a complete breakdown of fairness and justice and an
Speaker 8: even handed. Approach whether it was the, prosecutor whether it
Speaker 8: was a public defender who first case was a double
Speaker 8: assault case like, this whether it was the judge who
Speaker 8: forced him to go to trial before this young defense
Speaker 8: attorney was. Ready whether it was the prison system and
Speaker 8: the guards who worked the courtroom who went back and
Speaker 8: presumably took and stole his, stuff we can't zoom justice
Speaker 8: in every. Jurisdiction there are justice systems that are unjust
Speaker 8: against whether they're, young poor black men or young poor
Speaker 8: white men were the system doesn't. Work i'm not surprised
Speaker 8: That Jimmy gardner was convicted because he was convicted before
Speaker 8: he sat down and even tried the, case because those
Speaker 8: systems not only, failed but those systems were unjust and
Speaker 8: hell been on being unjust towards. Him And i'm comfortable
Speaker 8: saying that as his attorney post conviction on his.
Speaker 4: Part where you didn't have a post, release, rather.
Speaker 5: You didn't have a hope in, HELL i mean you
Speaker 5: really between all the FACTORS A scott just pointed, OUT i,
Speaker 5: mean you were.
Speaker 4: Done it's actually a miracle that they deliberated for four
Speaker 4: and a half.
Speaker 5: DAYS i would have been less surprised if you said
Speaker 5: four and a half hours or forty five, minutes because
Speaker 5: they were not presented with the facts at. All SO
Speaker 5: i give some credit to the jury that they actually
Speaker 5: spent that much, time but that didn't help. YOU i,
Speaker 5: mean what an extreme. Right you're going from having all
Speaker 5: star dreams from the dream LIKE i said that many of,
Speaker 5: us Most american boys grow up with, right which is
Speaker 5: playing baseball in the major, leagues which was actually within,
Speaker 5: reach and all of a, sudden you're going from pretty
Speaker 5: close to the tippy top to the absolute depths of.
Speaker 4: Hell can you describe the? MOMENT i, mean.
Speaker 5: You were there for four and a half, days twisting
Speaker 5: in the. Wind every day you showed up in court
Speaker 5: wishing hope and praying whatever your thing. Is then you
Speaker 5: not only get, convicted but sentenced to essentially life, sentence,
Speaker 5: right one hundred and ten years in, PRISONEL i, mean
Speaker 5: what was that?
Speaker 4: Moment?
Speaker 3: LIKE i, Mean i'll back it up a little. Bit
Speaker 3: WHEN i first arrived Into, Charleston West. VIRGINIA i can
Speaker 3: still recall all the guys in the, jail says telling.
Speaker 3: Me they called Me. Florida they, Said. Florida you can't win.
Speaker 3: Here you just don't go to trial and win. Here
Speaker 3: And i'm telling the Guys i'm not guilty of these. Crimes.
Speaker 3: Man they, said, man but you can't. Win you don't
Speaker 3: win In Charleston West. Virginia and at this, Time i'm
Speaker 3: knowing THAT i did not do these, crimes AND i
Speaker 3: don't have that worry that you guys are talking. About
Speaker 3: you guys are talking.
Speaker 4: About you.
Speaker 3: KNOW i had the prosecution offer ten years to, me
Speaker 3: and my lawyer, said he, said Mister, garden this is
Speaker 3: the best deal that you will ever. Get these are
Speaker 3: ten years for these type of. Charges they, said you
Speaker 3: go to, trial you'll get ten times. This he, said
Speaker 3: you'll get beyond. That he, said this is the best.
Speaker 3: Deal he tried everything to get me to take a.
Speaker 3: DEAL i, SAID i didn't do the. Crimes i'm not
Speaker 3: guilty of these. Crimes i'm not pleading guilty to. Anything
Speaker 3: and those ten years turned into one hundred and ten
Speaker 3: years ONCE i was. Convicted and going through that process
Speaker 3: UNTIL i was actually convicted AND i heard the jury say,
Speaker 3: GUILTY i did not think THAT i would be found.
Speaker 3: Guilty that's what made it such a shock going, back,
Speaker 3: because AS i, say the attorney's telling, me the longer
Speaker 3: they stay, out this is excellent for. Us you, know
Speaker 3: this is. Excellent they can't come to an agreement and
Speaker 3: the judge steady sends them. Back you gotta go. Back they,
Speaker 3: said we, judge we're. Dead we're at a position we
Speaker 3: can't move. Forward you gotta go. Back how long is a?
Speaker 3: Trial probably a, week and in the END i was
Speaker 3: actually convicted and sent it to one hundred and ten,
Speaker 3: years which was a, shocker to say the.
Speaker 5: Least to go from that and to come to where
Speaker 5: you are, now how did you manage to bounce?
Speaker 4: Back how did you manage to? Persevere how did you
Speaker 4: manage to?
Speaker 3: FIGHT i, mean it's a, process and that's not a
Speaker 3: process that's done. Overnight at that, point AFTER i was
Speaker 3: CON i MEAN i was in, shock BUT i knew
Speaker 3: in my MIND i was in for a. FIGHT i
Speaker 3: knew that there's no time for crying and laying. Down
Speaker 3: that's just the individual THAT i am and my. Upbringing you,
Speaker 3: know it's not time to really cry and. SULK i
Speaker 3: know it's time to fight for my. Life AND i
Speaker 3: GUESS i had been bred for this. Adversity adversity is
Speaker 3: something That i've had to overcome and basically outlast my entire.
Speaker 3: Life and this guilty, verdict this guilty, verdict was a
Speaker 3: slam to, me BUT i just know it changed my entire.
Speaker 3: Life the young lady THAT i was dating at the.
Speaker 3: TIME i had to let her know that our relationship
Speaker 3: was over and let her know That i'm In, Charleston
Speaker 3: West virginia with my life basically just taking from, me
Speaker 3: AND i gotta. Fight SO i ended a relationship in
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty well nineteen ninety that began in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 3: three and that was a difficult, decision BUT i just
Speaker 3: ended that BECAUSE i knew Now i'm In, Charleston West,
Speaker 3: virginia a young man From, Tampa. Florida i'm used to
Speaker 3: being in a totally different environment and Now I'm, Charleston West,
Speaker 3: virginia where it's ninety eight percent white In West virginia
Speaker 3: and two percent black at that, time which was that
Speaker 3: was major to. Me BUT i have to put in
Speaker 3: my mind this is live or. Die SO i can
Speaker 3: still recall in the courtroom telling my mother and my,
Speaker 3: grandmother don't. Cry you, Know i'm telling don't. Cry do
Speaker 3: not let them see you. Cry don't show. Tears i'm
Speaker 3: not showing tears at this. Moment this is a time
Speaker 3: THAT i must be, strong AND i wanted them to be,
Speaker 3: strong SO i just remained strong for. Them mostly of,
Speaker 3: course WHEN i got back to the, CELL i had
Speaker 3: to let it. Out but you, KNOW i, mean it's almost.
Speaker 3: Indescribable it.
Speaker 5: IS i, mean it's impossible for any of us to understand.
Speaker 5: It so you end up going to maximum security prison
Speaker 5: In West.
Speaker 4: Virginia, yes which prison did they send you? To and
Speaker 4: how violent was?
Speaker 5: It even among maximum security, prisons there are some that
Speaker 5: are more chaotic and more.
Speaker 4: Violent so what was your.
Speaker 3: Experience, well WHEN i first went into The West virginia prison,
Speaker 3: SYSTEM i went to The West Virginia penitentiary In, Moundsville West,
Speaker 3: virginia and this penitentiary was actually declared unlivable at the.
Speaker 3: TIME i guess they were in the process of closing
Speaker 3: the prison. Down.
Speaker 4: Unlivable that's an interesting, word.
Speaker 3: Yeah because it had been deemed just horrible the conditions and.
Speaker 3: Everything AND i still remember the DAY i arrived at
Speaker 3: the prison and ALL i could do was just kind
Speaker 3: of stand back on the wall and look at the
Speaker 3: different faces of. INDIVIDUALS i, Mean I'm i'm From, Tampa.
Speaker 3: Florida i'm in an ENVIRONMENT i know no, One and
Speaker 3: you have, skinheads arian, brotherhoods motorcycle, games, cluecutsklant you got
Speaker 3: a number of gangs within this. Prison and it may
Speaker 3: have been out of fifteen hundred, prisoners it may have
Speaker 3: been a hundred black, guys may. NOT i don't even
Speaker 3: think it was one hundred black. Guys it was a different.
Speaker 3: World it was a, very very different. World the majority
Speaker 3: of the black guys, WERE i musta, say a little
Speaker 3: subservient to a degree because they didn't want any. Trouble you,
Speaker 3: know it was certain hits being sent out on. INDIVIDUALS
Speaker 3: i mean it was a actual. Hits oh, yeah oh.
Speaker 3: Sure and it was just a completely different world for
Speaker 3: me at that. Time and my first objective WAS i
Speaker 3: gotta get to the law. LIBRARY i gotta learn this. Law,
Speaker 3: UNFORTUNATELY i was encountered by an individual that ultimately led
Speaker 3: to me going to lock up for a little. Bit
Speaker 3: SO i spent a few years in lock up over
Speaker 3: an INCIDENT i don't choose to speak about, today but
Speaker 3: it was a fight that turned into a little bit.
Speaker 3: More and next thing you, Know i'm on lock up
Speaker 3: for a period of. Years and what is that lock
Speaker 3: up is punter, segregation, right and on punter segregation In,
Speaker 3: Moundsville West Virginia. Penitentiary it's worse than the mainline population
Speaker 3: it was pretty. Rough you had officers that had. Shotguns
Speaker 3: there was a couple of shotguns on every. Section it
Speaker 3: seems like shotgun, here shotgun over, here, shotgun, shotgun, Shotgun
Speaker 3: and you're on the inside and it's just all this this,
Speaker 3: steel these little. CAGES i can touch all four walls
Speaker 3: by just reaching out and touching the walls from north
Speaker 3: to southeast to. West and the sale was that little
Speaker 3: with the little, sink toilet and the, bed AND i
Speaker 3: stayed over there for a period of, time and that
Speaker 3: gave me an opportunity to really hone in on WHO
Speaker 3: i was and WHO i. AM i started, READING i started.
Speaker 3: STUDYING i made my way to the law library versus
Speaker 3: going out to work. Out you have an, option you
Speaker 3: can work, out or you can go to the law.
Speaker 3: Library so my law library time started about two or
Speaker 3: three in the, morning SO i would go to the law.
Speaker 3: Library and it's ironic that one of The Arian brotherhood,
Speaker 3: guys he taught me how to, shepherdize taught me how
Speaker 3: to go in and read all different cases and familiarize
Speaker 3: myself with the legal. Process he really helped me gain
Speaker 3: a foundation in. Law on lock.
Speaker 4: Up that's that for a, second that's kind of.
Speaker 3: Amazing that Was that was my first. Encounter AND i
Speaker 3: always tell, people you, Know i'm indebted to this, guy.
Speaker 5: An arian brotherhood guy teaching one of the few black
Speaker 5: guys the maximum security prison In West virginia about the
Speaker 5: law is something worth spending a moment.
Speaker 4: ON i, mean this Is do you remember this guy's, name.
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure Joker Marcus. Cockrum we became the best of.
Speaker 3: Friends from not knowing anything to he taking the time
Speaker 3: out to go over with me in this law library
Speaker 3: about similar, cases reading up on, this understanding the different
Speaker 3: writs and, filings and you, KNOW i, mean it was.
Speaker 3: Priceless AND i can still hear him, saying you will
Speaker 3: not do a lot of time on this because this is.
Speaker 3: Crazy your case will be one of the biggest cases
Speaker 3: in the state Of West. Virginia and all he used
Speaker 3: to talk about, was, man they're gonna pay you so much.
Speaker 3: Money that was what he was. Saying and we actually
Speaker 3: we studied so much and we really became good. Friends
Speaker 3: behind that.
Speaker 4: Was he still.
Speaker 3: In he's still.
Speaker 4: In so you were moved around to a few different.
Speaker 3: Presents let me, see From Moundsville Western. Penitentiary we left
Speaker 3: there in nineteen ninety, five they closed the prison. Down
Speaker 3: SO i Left Moundsville Western penitentiary In march of nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety five AND i went To Mount Olive Correctional complex
Speaker 3: in Mount, Olive West. VIRGINIA i stayed At Mount Olive
Speaker 3: Correctional complex for a period OF i don't, know maybe,
Speaker 3: TWO i don't, know seventeen, sixteen seventeen, years BECAUSE i
Speaker 3: Left Mount olive in two thousand and eleven AND i
Speaker 3: went To Huttonsville Correctional. CENTER i Left huttonsville and went
Speaker 3: To Northern Correctional. Facility THEN i went To Northern Correctional.
Speaker 3: Center THEN i came back To Mount Olive Correctional complex
Speaker 3: BEFORE i was, released and that was in twenty. SIXTEEN i, mean.
Speaker 5: You really had a tour of the worst places in
Speaker 5: sure that anyone can. Imagine let's take the twenty seven
Speaker 5: years you were. Incarcerated what was the worst thing that
Speaker 5: you saw that happened in all that.
Speaker 4: TIME i, mean.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of. Worse the worst happened At. Moundsville
Speaker 3: that was the. WORST i go back to the winter
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety three In moundsville on. Lockup i've never
Speaker 3: been that cold in my. Life all the windows in
Speaker 3: lockup are knocked. Out and this was prior to an
Speaker 3: incident that happened in nineteen eighty. Six it was a
Speaker 3: riot there in nineteen eighty six and the windows were never.
Speaker 3: Replaced what, Yes so all of these windows are knocked,
Speaker 3: out And i'm on the fourth, TIER i, believe on,
Speaker 3: lockup and the snow is just blowing in and it's just.
Speaker 3: COLD i got all the CLOTHES i, GOT i got
Speaker 3: all my clothes. On i'm so cold THAT i don't
Speaker 3: get up out of bed to eat for a few.
Speaker 3: DAYS i remember writing in my, journal this is the
Speaker 3: first TIME i ate oat. MEAL i was so hungry
Speaker 3: with you. KNOW i got up after like day two
Speaker 3: or three and ate oat. Meal that was. It but
Speaker 3: it was so cold that the toilet was literally. Ice
Speaker 3: in order for me to use the, facility to use the,
Speaker 3: RESTROOM i had to break the ice with my. Shank
Speaker 3: i'd used my, knife my shank to break the ice
Speaker 3: in order to use the. TOILET i had never been
Speaker 3: that cold in my. Life AND i, pitched AND i
Speaker 3: pitched In, Wisconsin, Appleton, wisconsin right off Of Lake, michigan
Speaker 3: AND i remember being cold off of That, Lake, michigan
Speaker 3: AND i thought that was the, coldest but UNTIL i
Speaker 3: went To, Moundsville West virginia that nineteen ninety three. Winter
Speaker 3: it was so. COLD i kept myself warm by talking and.
Speaker 3: Yelling just it was. Torture and you gotta try. To
Speaker 3: you gotta try, TO i, guess yell and keep, moving
Speaker 3: get to stay. Warm, yeah that was pretty. Rough that
Speaker 3: was the roughest. Time and then on top of, THAT i,
Speaker 3: mean there's stabbings over there every every, day if not
Speaker 3: every other. Day there's so many, gangs there's so many
Speaker 3: hits being sent out in this in this little, area
Speaker 3: and you got stabbings going. On you have the officers
Speaker 3: using the pump. Shotguns i'm still hearing the click. Boom
Speaker 3: that's that's that's the sound shooting. Guys they'll make that,
Speaker 3: warning they say they make a warning, shot but they'll
Speaker 3: actually shoot the buck shots into the. AREA i still
Speaker 3: remember the guy, saying the next one will get. YOU
Speaker 3: i won't miss with the next. One the ring from
Speaker 3: that shotgun going, off And i'm crawling on the, ground
Speaker 3: just crawling to try to get away from, this this this,
Speaker 3: situation because you're not expecting nothing like. That to, happen
Speaker 3: shooting going on with then lock. UP i, mean but
Speaker 3: the stablings are happening so so, frequent and the officers
Speaker 3: are shooting to stop the stab MEANS i mean not justifying,
Speaker 3: it but it was just Mad lands to. Me i'm,
Speaker 3: Like i'm in a, crazy crazy. Spot SO i had
Speaker 3: to take my whole psyche to another. LEVEL i am
Speaker 3: in survival. Mode i'm gonna make it out of. HERE
Speaker 3: i still remember That i'm gonna make it out of.
Speaker 3: Here i'm saying, Myself i'm writing this, Down i'm gonna
Speaker 3: make it out of. Here i'm not going to succumb to.
Speaker 3: This and you, KNOW i had that in my writing
Speaker 3: and my, journal BUT i kept myself, active you, know
Speaker 3: and that's WHEN i would go to the library AND
Speaker 3: i come, back you, know even While i'm studying the
Speaker 3: law and getting all the INFORMATION i, CAN i started
Speaker 3: reading a lot of different. Books i'm reading up On, Catholicism, Buddhism, Rostafarianism, Islam,
Speaker 3: christianity The Bob Da. Vita i'm reading EVERYTHING i can
Speaker 3: read and understand in different. Faiths And i'm also at
Speaker 3: this time doing all my other. Readings you, KNOW i
Speaker 3: always mentioned Doctor Victor frankle's Book Man search For, Meaning
Speaker 3: AND i always Mentioned James James allen as a man
Speaker 3: Thinking i'm just reading so much And i'm taking time
Speaker 3: out of my day to read. This reading was, like
Speaker 3: this is getting me through the.
Speaker 5: Day you're, freezing you're, starving and you're trying to avoid
Speaker 5: being stabbed and. Shot everything else going, OKAY i, MEAN.
Speaker 3: I, mean And i'll say, THIS i, mean it was
Speaker 3: a very it was very it was very racist in
Speaker 3: this in this. Prison so you never know when a
Speaker 3: hit may come your, way when when someone may come
Speaker 3: you and you don't have to even be the subject of.
Speaker 3: Intent you don't have to be that. Person you don't
Speaker 3: even know the. Person i'll never forget the one guy
Speaker 3: next to, me he wouldn't come out of the. Cell you,
Speaker 3: know it's guys that wouldn't come out and wouldn't go
Speaker 3: to shower and wouldn't come out of that. Cell and
Speaker 3: it's okay with the. Officers you used to stay in the,
Speaker 3: sell but it's guys that would not come out AND
Speaker 3: i AND i would go to. THEM i was, like,
Speaker 3: hey come on out to, sale come to the. Shower
Speaker 3: you have a showered, today you have a shower in a,
Speaker 3: week come on out of, there and you, know guys
Speaker 3: would literally, Say i'm not coming out there to be. Killed.
Speaker 5: Gudge let me ask, you BECAUSE i think there's something
Speaker 5: in The constitution about cruel and unusual, punishment how does
Speaker 5: this go on the scenario That jimmy is. Describing it
Speaker 5: must be what the founding fathers had in mind when
Speaker 5: they wrote.
Speaker 6: That, unfortunately this is a reality of the country we
Speaker 6: live in. Now, legally there would be a great uproar
Speaker 6: if we found or somebody made a big deal about
Speaker 6: how some of our elderly are being treated and assisted living.
Speaker 6: Homes BUT i guarantee you it would be a different
Speaker 6: situation where the law would react very differently for someone
Speaker 6: on the outside than they do when we're dealing with
Speaker 6: prisoners who sometimes we forget are still. Citizens they are Still,
Speaker 6: Americans they're still entitled to all of their constitutional. Rights and,
Speaker 6: so to answer the, question not, passionately but, legally there
Speaker 6: is a mechanism to address. That but is it, ADEQUATE
Speaker 6: i would say, no.
Speaker 5: The scenario That jimmy's describing in most, STATES i think
Speaker 5: if you treated your.
Speaker 4: Dog that, way go to, jail you go to. Jail
Speaker 4: you can't leave your.
Speaker 5: Dog in a tiny enclosure in freezing temperature sub freezing.
Speaker 5: Temperatures it's.
Speaker 6: Unconstable AND i, MEAN i will, say because of WHAT i,
Speaker 6: DO i have to, believe AND i do believe that
Speaker 6: there is a possibility of. Justice so this prison That
Speaker 6: jimmy was in was because of a legal case. Condemned
Speaker 6: now it was condemned six years before they closed, it
Speaker 6: but legally there was a case saying you cannot house
Speaker 6: people in these. Conditions what happens with the administration after
Speaker 6: that decision comes down is something entirely. Different SO i
Speaker 6: would certainly agree the laws to protect our animals are
Speaker 6: oftentime more stringent and more closely followed than we do
Speaker 6: to protect our brothers and. Sisters and that is a
Speaker 6: very big problem in this.
Speaker 3: Country it's so.
Speaker 5: Nuts right one, day you're just a person walking around
Speaker 5: the street with your, Rights but as soon as that
Speaker 5: switch goes off and you're caught up in the criminal justice,
Speaker 5: system you're not treated as a human being.
Speaker 4: Anymore that's got to, Change and when.
Speaker 6: We look at, it even in the most self serving,
Speaker 6: way for the most, part people are going to get
Speaker 6: out of prison at some. Point they're going to be
Speaker 6: in our, neighborhoods they're going to be in the, supermarkets
Speaker 6: they're going to be back in, society and if we
Speaker 6: have treated them as subhuman for however long they're, there
Speaker 6: we are going to reap the consequences of how they're
Speaker 6: going to react when they come. Out one of the
Speaker 6: THINGS i admire most About jimmy is that he'll say
Speaker 6: that even though he was in, jail his mind was never.
Speaker 4: There, well, unusual he is an unusual.
Speaker 6: Person but we really do have to step back and
Speaker 6: look at how we're treating. People even if you don't,
Speaker 6: care even if you did something bad AND i don't
Speaker 6: care about, you be selfish and understand that for the most,
Speaker 6: part they're going to come back out and then you're
Speaker 6: going to have.
Speaker 3: To deal with.
Speaker 6: It that's why we're doing re and treat work with
Speaker 6: people needing, jobs needing, housing all of these. Things we
Speaker 6: have to keep in mind that we are all part
Speaker 6: of the same society and we've all got live in.
Speaker 5: It we need to do, Better we need to do.
Speaker 5: Better we need to treat our people as. People, So,
Speaker 5: jimmy how did it? Transpire how'd you? Rebound how did
Speaker 5: you get. Out what was that moment like when you got?
Speaker 3: OUT i, MEAN i was. OVERJOYED i was released through
Speaker 3: the federal. COURTS i spent forty six months in federal
Speaker 3: court on top of a twenty three year in order
Speaker 3: to delay in state. Court and my mother Is Gladys.
Speaker 3: Gardner you, know my mom's a, very very praying, woman
Speaker 3: and she she has. VISIONS i was waiting up to
Speaker 3: six maybe five months at the, time and my mom, said,
Speaker 3: WELL i went in the closet and you're coming. Home
Speaker 3: you be getting ready to get your, rule and you're
Speaker 3: coming home this. Week she, says so go ahead and
Speaker 3: pack up. Everything AND i, said, Okay. MOM i was
Speaker 3: talking to her That, sunday AND i got the call
Speaker 3: On friday from my attorney telling me that the case
Speaker 3: had been, overturned conviction, vacated and either set for retrial or.
Speaker 3: Release AND i call and let my mother know. That That,
Speaker 3: FRIDAY i, Said, MAMA i got the, ruling but she
Speaker 3: already saw.
Speaker 4: It she saw a. Vision.
Speaker 3: Yeah LIKE i, said my mother's very very, praying very
Speaker 3: very prayer and. Spiritual AND i had been preparing For april,
Speaker 3: first seemed like all my, life every year that would go.
Speaker 3: BY i. PRAY i, Said, god please let me come
Speaker 3: home this. Year It's january, first AND i watched that
Speaker 3: ball drop right here In New. YORK i watched that ball,
Speaker 3: drop AND i, Say, god let this be my. Year one,
Speaker 3: Day i'm gonna go and watch that ball. Drop AND
Speaker 3: i said, that AND i believe that one. Wholeheartedly every,
Speaker 3: YEAR i would, Say, god let this be the. Year
Speaker 3: that's a few days went, by BUT i watched that ball,
Speaker 3: drop AND i watched that every. Year let this be my.
Speaker 3: Year AND i go through my years in, prison letting
Speaker 3: guys Know i'm going home this.
Speaker 5: Year well let's go back to, that, though because you
Speaker 5: actually bumped into a very principled judge who made a
Speaker 5: very strong ruling and an even stronger statement when he
Speaker 5: announced that.
Speaker 4: Your conviction was being.
Speaker 5: Overturned and you must have very special feelings for that.
Speaker 5: MAN i don't know, him But i'd like to meet
Speaker 5: him sometimes shoe his. Hand so can you talk about?
Speaker 3: That oh YES i, can with great. Pleasure you're speaking
Speaker 3: about The District Court Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin out The
Speaker 3: Southern district Of West. VIRGINIA i fouled my case into his.
Speaker 3: Court In june of twenty twelve And november of twenty,
Speaker 3: Thirteen Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin granted my petition and enabled
Speaker 3: me to come into federal, court which was a miracle
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i had no, standing no legal, standing AND i
Speaker 3: also filed under the denial of access to the, court
Speaker 3: denial of equal protection and due, process which aren't you,
Speaker 3: know issues that aren't cognizable in federal. Court you, know
Speaker 3: it has to be an issue dealing with constitution violation
Speaker 3: that emanated from your. Trial So i'm going in already knowing,
Speaker 3: this AND i tell YOU i placed one of my
Speaker 3: petitions into my filing BECAUSE i was asked to do
Speaker 3: that by a guy by the name of Courtnel. Day
Speaker 3: so he, said, man you got so many petitions you
Speaker 3: file in, court, man just go ahead and throw one.
Speaker 3: In let them know you have. Something SO i did,
Speaker 3: that But Judge goodwin denied my, petition but he granted
Speaker 3: me into federal court because of my exhibit of one
Speaker 3: of my state court. Petitions and at the end of the,
Speaker 3: Day Judge goodwin ruled THAT i had shown THAT i
Speaker 3: had issues that may want some relief in federal. Court
Speaker 3: so he's gonna give me that opportunity to present my
Speaker 3: petition to the court and get my case hurt for
Speaker 3: the first, time get my case reviewed for the first.
Speaker 3: Time this is the first time REVIEW i went in
Speaker 3: federal court under a d novo, review my first time
Speaker 3: getting a review in twenty four, years which was. Remarkable
Speaker 3: But Judge goodwin stated in his opinion THAT i had
Speaker 3: been in legal purgatory and that it had been a
Speaker 3: total miscarriage of, justice which were some very strong, words
Speaker 3: very strong. Words AND i just know that in order
Speaker 3: For Judge goodwin to have the courage to do that
Speaker 3: in the state Of West, virginia that took so much,
Speaker 3: Courage that took so MUCH i, MEAN i can't even
Speaker 3: express it to the. Audience and Within Judge goodwin's, OPINION i,
Speaker 3: mean he's right across the, hall even the same city
Speaker 3: as the state judge that sends me to one hundred
Speaker 3: and ten years and they're good. Friends.
Speaker 5: Wow and let me just read, something Because Judge holliday
Speaker 5: said That zane's That i'm quoting pattern and practice of
Speaker 5: misconduct completely undermined the validity and reliability of any forensic
Speaker 5: work he performed or, reported and that as a matter of,
Speaker 5: law any testimonial or documentary evidence offered By zane at
Speaker 5: any time in any criminal prosecution should be deemed, invalid,
Speaker 5: unreliable and inadmissible in determining whether to award a new
Speaker 5: trial in any subsequent habeas corpus preceding bam. Right SO
Speaker 5: i can ask the, judge it sounds to me like
Speaker 5: the judge was.
Speaker 6: Pissed that was from The Supreme court Of West, virginia and,
Speaker 6: yes he was very, upset and that should have formed
Speaker 6: the basis for an immediate, rehearing if not. Released that,
Speaker 6: DECISION i believe came out in ninety.
Speaker 3: Three november of nineteen ninety, Three so that.
Speaker 6: Ruling came out out saying that every person who had
Speaker 6: been prosecuted by or convicted by because of testimony From
Speaker 6: zay should get a. Rehearing, JIMMY i think was granted
Speaker 6: four more than.
Speaker 3: One of the real injustices.
Speaker 8: Here isn't Just zaane's deplorable and illegal. Behavior is that
Speaker 8: once That Supreme court did its investigation and ordered a
Speaker 8: new trial for not Just, jimmy but anyone who had
Speaker 8: been convicted based On zane's, evidence they either were going
Speaker 8: to be released or they would have to be, retried
Speaker 8: and the local prosecutors and these jurisdictions had to determine
Speaker 8: which one it was going to. Be the local prosecutors
Speaker 8: In jimmy's case decided that they were going to retry
Speaker 8: him rightfully or. Wrongfully but then the trial judge in this,
Speaker 8: case when he would file his, petitions and you say filed,
Speaker 8: FOUR i think he filed more than. That but there
Speaker 8: were several state habeas corporate petitions file pursuing to The
Speaker 8: Supreme court, decision the State Supreme court, decision and this
Speaker 8: particular judge refused to give him a, hearing so he
Speaker 8: languished for ten to fifteen, years twenty Years i'm sorry
Speaker 8: forgive me twenty years in a state of legal, purgatory
Speaker 8: essentially because he could not go to the federal system
Speaker 8: until his state case or state habeas case had been
Speaker 8: tried or. Heard and for twenty years they didn't hear
Speaker 8: it or try, it and so he. Languished he finally
Speaker 8: filed something in federal court out of, desperation and this,
Speaker 8: judge as federal, judge took it up despite the standing,
Speaker 8: issues because how abhorrent the state system had treated. Him
Speaker 8: he had never had a. Hearing so we talked about
Speaker 8: those who were who contributed mightily to his twenty seven year.
Speaker 8: Incarceration it just wasn't the state police And. Zaying it
Speaker 8: was also that you did at the state level that
Speaker 8: worked purposely to ensure that he would be in legal
Speaker 8: purgatory for twenty. Years so twenty of the twenty seven,
Speaker 8: years even After zain was found, out it was the
Speaker 8: system and the court system that kept him. There and
Speaker 8: so when you talk about making him, whole it's not About,
Speaker 8: zayn just About zayn in the State police. Department it's
Speaker 8: the state judiciary system and the prosecutors who knew he
Speaker 8: was in, prison knew he was, suffering knew they were
Speaker 8: on the court order to give him a, hearing and
Speaker 8: knew that they weren't giving him.
Speaker 3: That it really is.
Speaker 8: Abhorrent and so the fact of the matter, is but
Speaker 8: for this federal district court judge who found a way
Speaker 8: legally to rule right and to direct them to give
Speaker 8: him a new hearing or to let him, go because
Speaker 8: now we're in with a federal court judge who's got
Speaker 8: a lifetime appointment and says let him go by some
Speaker 8: date certain or retrying even after all of, that the
Speaker 8: same state, prosecutors the same state police offered or decided
Speaker 8: to retry him, again and on the eve of, trial
Speaker 8: on the day of, trial approached the bench and decided
Speaker 8: they weren't going to retry him allegedly because of lost
Speaker 8: witnesses or lost memory of. Witnesses that wasn't the. Case
Speaker 8: they couldn't prove the case twenty seven years. Ago they
Speaker 8: couldn't prove it twenty seven years. Later the bottom line
Speaker 8: proposition because anything That zain had, touched and anything that
Speaker 8: the state lab and those working With zain had touched
Speaker 8: was not. Credible and whether you had the witness or,
Speaker 8: not it was the tainted evidence that ultimately convicted. Him
Speaker 8: and that's the second tragedy of his.
Speaker 5: Incarceration it is absolutely fucking nuts That zain was exposed
Speaker 5: and actually indicted in nineteen ninety, three but.
Speaker 8: He had gone To texas, right had gotten fired from
Speaker 8: the position In, texas and when he came, back the
Speaker 8: state police and had welcomed him back despite all the
Speaker 8: findings against. Him he worked as a consultant to them
Speaker 8: and convicted other people on bad evidence when he returned.
Speaker 5: Right powerful bad evidence, TOO i mean because, again hard
Speaker 5: to argue with the guy that's up, there but talking
Speaker 5: science that people may or may not even unders, well
Speaker 5: people can't challenge.
Speaker 8: IT i often wondered With jimmy and even the prosecution
Speaker 8: on the other, side now That i'm involved in the
Speaker 8: case post his, release as who could find the motivation
Speaker 8: to wrongfully convict hundreds of innocent people based on bad,
Speaker 8: analysis poor, analysis or just perd your testimony on a
Speaker 8: repetitive basis a, practice a part and practice of wrongfully convicting.
Speaker 8: People what motivates a human being in law? Enforcement who
Speaker 8: most of them swear to The constitution and to the,
Speaker 8: flag and where the flag on their sleeves on their,
Speaker 8: shoulders right to wrongfully convict and criminally through criminal kinds
Speaker 8: convict innocent? People where does that come? From what manner
Speaker 8: of man is?
Speaker 4: That?
Speaker 5: Yeah and of course we know that in every one
Speaker 5: of these cases in Which zane and others like him have, deliberately,
Speaker 5: willfully wrongfully testified against people Like jimmy or they knew were,
Speaker 5: innocent in every one of those, cases the actual perpetrator
Speaker 5: remain free to go and go and commit.
Speaker 4: Other whole another.
Speaker 5: Bucket it's a whole other, bucket but it's an inescapable.
Speaker 5: Truth but you, KNOW i want to talk about the good.
Speaker 5: Stuff when you actually were let, free did you walk
Speaker 5: out of the courtroom like in the movies into the?
Speaker 4: Sunlight is that what?
Speaker 3: Happened it was On april, first after the, hearing and
Speaker 3: this hearing is to decide whether or Not i'm going
Speaker 3: to be retried or. Released And Judge Joanna, Tabbot i'm
Speaker 3: in her, courtroom and like my, Attorney Scott bolden, said
Speaker 3: the state decided they were going to. Retry So Judge
Speaker 3: Joanna tabbot set a bond in my. Case and she
Speaker 3: asked my, mother Miss, gardner can you please stand and
Speaker 3: my mother stood up and my mother told her, yes.
Speaker 3: Ma'am she, said can you tell me what kind of
Speaker 3: bond can you? Make and my mom, SAID i THINK
Speaker 3: i can make ten thousand. Dollars And Judge, tabot you,
Speaker 3: know which is one of the greatest judges In West
Speaker 3: virginia right now her And Judge JOSEPH. R goodmanin federal.
Speaker 3: Judge she, said, well the bond is said at ten.
Speaker 3: Thousand she, said Missus, gardner take him home with. You
Speaker 3: take him, home and my, mother my Sister's Barbara, Gardner,
Speaker 3: Harrison Tracy, simms my Brother Eric, gardner my other, brothers
Speaker 3: my Friend Sheila, lewis so many other, people my nephews
Speaker 3: and you, know my. Nieces it's so many people waiting
Speaker 3: on me to walk out of that. JAIL i walked
Speaker 3: out of that jail When april, first to the arms
Speaker 3: of my, family and that moment was so. Exhilarating you,
Speaker 3: know all of. Us we just met with a big
Speaker 3: group hug AND i embraced everyone and we shared a
Speaker 3: lot of tears of. Joy of, course the news reporters, like,
Speaker 3: well you, know they're seeking to retry Mister. Gardner in my,
Speaker 3: MIND i already knew this was, over this was. Over
Speaker 3: and my mother said they can do whatever they want
Speaker 3: to try this and that she said this is. Over she,
Speaker 3: said My god told me this is. Over AND i
Speaker 3: knew it was. Over SO i embraced my. Family we. Hugged,
Speaker 3: Man we went we went out to, eat we went
Speaker 3: to the hotel and, partied AND i mean we. Partied.
Speaker 3: Man you can't put you can't define, it words can't explain.
Speaker 5: IT i couldn't even imagine so being. WILD a crazy
Speaker 5: thing happened just a couple of months, ago because you've
Speaker 5: been out now for about twenty two.
Speaker 4: Months what was the date of the formal Exonerate september,
Speaker 4: seventh twenty.
Speaker 5: Sixteen so there was another mile stone right that you
Speaker 5: knew it was, coming but it still had to be
Speaker 5: a great. Feeling, yes, sir you were telling me earlier
Speaker 5: about a crazy story in the best possible. Way do
Speaker 5: you want to talk about? That?
Speaker 3: OKAY i would just say. This you, know Since i've came,
Speaker 3: Home i've had the opportunity to. SPEAK i do my
Speaker 3: own speaking. Now I'M Jc Gardner. SPEAKS i have A
Speaker 3: Gardener house incorporated In, Beckley West. Virginia that house is
Speaker 3: a house for returning, citizens giving men opportunities to have, housing, clothing.
Speaker 3: Food this is going to get off the ground pretty.
Speaker 3: Soon i'm in the process of renovating it. Now And
Speaker 3: i've been speaking and been fortunate to meet so many
Speaker 3: people and attend so many different, Universities Congressional Black call
Speaker 3: because IT'S i, mean it's just been, phenomenal phenomenal to
Speaker 3: say the, least the opportunities That i've. Had but last
Speaker 3: YEAR i happened to Meet Judge Leslie abrams in All,
Speaker 3: Benny georgia at A Georgia Black Women lawyers associating a
Speaker 3: party or something like, that AND i just happened to
Speaker 3: Meet leslie and we, TALKED i don't, know maybe, hours maybe,
Speaker 3: hours so so it was an extended time and it
Speaker 3: was at that time THAT i realized it was it
Speaker 3: was something that that was really gravitating me toward. Her
Speaker 3: and you, KNOW i felt LIKE i had found WHAT
Speaker 3: i was looking. For and Today leslie AND i are a.
Speaker 3: COUPLE i, mean my blessings have Been it's like a river.
Speaker 5: Flowing you found love in the form of the judge
Speaker 5: who happens to be sitting right next to me right.
Speaker 5: Now what a like an amazing circle now, RIGHT i,
Speaker 5: mean talk about the criminal justice system giving. BACK i,
Speaker 5: mean you, know it's like for somebody who has been
Speaker 5: as wrong as you can, be it's an amazing it's an,
Speaker 5: amazing amazing and, wonderful beautiful part of the. Story and
Speaker 5: you're a lucky, man so very, fortunate the luckiest of
Speaker 5: the unluckiest people THAT i.
Speaker 3: Know i'll, Say i'll say, This, Jason i've been blessed beyond.
Speaker 3: IMAGINATION i can't even describe. It i've met nothing but
Speaker 3: great people Since i've been. Home it's almost like everything
Speaker 3: you encounter is. Gold everything THAT i have encountered since
Speaker 3: my time of being home has been good for. Me
Speaker 3: i'm in a situation WHERE i Know i've been blessed
Speaker 3: beyond imagination and beyond the normal human being can be
Speaker 3: blessed their entire. Lives i'm fortunate to have a great
Speaker 3: attorney such As Scott bold and sitting next to, Me
Speaker 3: i'm fortunate to have a great lady in my, life
Speaker 3: The Honorable Judge Leslie. Abrams i'm blessed my mother and
Speaker 3: father are still. Here my sisters and brothers are still
Speaker 3: on this earth with. Me i'm in the presence of
Speaker 3: my nieces and nephews and my family members all the.
Speaker 3: Time i am blessed beyond, comparison And i'm blessed with.
Speaker 3: Health to come out Of, Mountsville West Virginia penitentiary and
Speaker 3: to go Into mount all The Correctional. Complex to come
Speaker 3: out of this situation now for twenty seven years and
Speaker 3: be healthy, mentally, physically and spiritually is beyond a blessing the.
Speaker 3: Miracle NOW i am in the process of taking some
Speaker 3: getting some psychiatric help as far as because you can't
Speaker 3: go in water and not expect to get. Wet SO
Speaker 3: i do have to take some classes getting myself reacclimated,
Speaker 3: back get some psychiatric help in that, regard just going
Speaker 3: through the, process sharing my bad times perceived with individuals
Speaker 3: with a, psychiatrist being in a position to, say, Hey
Speaker 3: i'm not at any level trying to Say i'm totally
Speaker 3: unblemished or unharmed by this, process because you. Can't you
Speaker 3: can't jump in water and not get. Wet SO i
Speaker 3: recognize That i'm blessed beyond. Majority but in the position
Speaker 3: THAT i am, today my position is to be able
Speaker 3: to tell my story to people and let them, know,
Speaker 3: hey it's not how you, start it's how you, finish
Speaker 3: and it's not what you go through in, life it's
Speaker 3: how you deal with what you go through in, life
Speaker 3: because we all go through. Something everybody got a, story
Speaker 3: AND i tell people that your story is just as
Speaker 3: important as my, story but it's how you deal with
Speaker 3: it and how you understand that you can only get
Speaker 3: through it by really tapping into your higher power and
Speaker 3: understanding that it's beyond. YOU i tell people every day
Speaker 3: they say why did this? Happen to, you it's not
Speaker 3: even about. Me it's not even about, me it's beyond.
Speaker 3: Me it's a level of me being placed on this.
Speaker 3: Earth not to play, baseball, basketball football under, that but
Speaker 3: to be an, activist an individual that's against. Injustice to
Speaker 3: share my story with, people hoping THAT i can give
Speaker 3: them the inspiration and motivation to know that whatever you
Speaker 3: going through in, life you can come out of it
Speaker 3: and you can be you can be in the best
Speaker 3: position of your life if you truly believe in your higher.
Speaker 3: Power AND i stress that to tell, People, look if
Speaker 3: you can go through, it whatever you're going, Through god
Speaker 3: will not place the burden upon you greater than you can.
Speaker 3: Handle so no going. In if you're going through, it
Speaker 3: you can handle. It it's, purposeful.
Speaker 8: You.
Speaker 5: Know usually on the, SHOW i opened up the mic
Speaker 5: to the featured guest for closing.
Speaker 4: THOUGHTS i feel like you actually right out of my. Mouth,
Speaker 4: yeah and that was.
Speaker 5: Amazing, So, jimmy how do people if they want to book,
Speaker 5: you if they want to donate to your new center
Speaker 5: that you're, Building.
Speaker 3: Gardener house in corporate www dot jcgardner speaks dot. Com
Speaker 3: i'm On twitter AT jc Gardener speaks And i'm Also
Speaker 3: instagram J. C gardner, speaks.
Speaker 4: You got that, Handle.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna, Yeah i'm going to follow you AND i
Speaker 5: hope other people will. Too And, scott how do people
Speaker 5: reach you if they are in need of your?
Speaker 8: Services Ape Bolden boldn at reidre Ed smith dot com
Speaker 8: with the law firm Of Reed. SMITH i would argue
Speaker 8: that these are very difficult. Cases they take a long,
Speaker 8: time and then there's the second story of recovery of
Speaker 8: how do you make someone Like Jimmy gardner hole not
Speaker 8: just emotionally or, physically or practically or, legally but. Financially
Speaker 8: he's lost twenty seven years of his. Life what is
Speaker 8: his life worth after twenty seven years of being in?
Speaker 8: Prison be welcome to look at other. CASES i can
Speaker 8: tell You i'm super focused On jimmy's, case, though because
Speaker 8: we have a couple of lawsuits pending In West. Virginia
Speaker 8: so despite all of this and all the, reports the
Speaker 8: state Of West virginia continues to. Fight now they're free to,
Speaker 8: fight obviously these are civil, lawsuits but given the overwhelming
Speaker 8: evidence and even the judicial reports that confirm this type
Speaker 8: of a really abhorrent, behavior and not just by the
Speaker 8: state lab but also by individuals in the criminal justice. System.
Speaker 8: There our hope and our goal is that we will
Speaker 8: resolved those cases so he can move on completely away
Speaker 8: from those twenty seven. Years right now we're still fighting.
Speaker 5: Though and then, LASTLY i do also like to have
Speaker 5: our other featured guests share any last, thoughts anything that
Speaker 5: you want to get off your, chest or anything you
Speaker 5: want to tell the.
Speaker 4: Audience Judge, WELL i.
Speaker 6: Would say that one of my passions WHEN i was
Speaker 6: a federal, PROSECUTOR i was AN ausa in THE Us
Speaker 6: Attorney's office In. ATLANTA i was hired By Sally, yates
Speaker 6: And Sally ates always talked about doing, justice but she
Speaker 6: talked about it as a three legged, stool and one
Speaker 6: of those legs it was, enforcement, prosecution but it was
Speaker 6: also prevention and re. Entry she was very adamant about that.
Speaker 6: NIGHT i hope that if anything comes out of. This
Speaker 6: one of the things that WHEN i Met, jimmy he
Speaker 6: said we talked for a very long time, time and
Speaker 6: part of that was talking about one how someone could
Speaker 6: go through that experience and come out with the spirit
Speaker 6: that he has come out, with but also what he was.
Speaker 6: Doing we talked About Gardner, house about how he was
Speaker 6: trying to help other people re enter into. SOCIETY i
Speaker 6: was the community outreach coordinator for THE Us Attorney's office
Speaker 6: a period during my time, there AND i did re entry.
Speaker 6: WORK i continue to do re entry work as a
Speaker 6: judge BECAUSE i think it's, very very important for us
Speaker 6: to give returning citizens an. Opportunity not everybody has a
Speaker 6: family that's going to be standing outside when they come.
Speaker 6: Home not everybody is going to have a home to go,
Speaker 6: to food to, eat even understand the. Resources jimmy is extremely,
Speaker 6: educated but the majority of people THAT i see in
Speaker 6: my court have not graduated from high. School would not
Speaker 6: be able to navigate the system as he. Did because
Speaker 6: it hasn't been. Said but understand the petition that got him.
Speaker 6: Out he, wrote he had thirteen lawyers over the. Years
Speaker 6: the only one to file that federal writ was, him
Speaker 6: and he did it. Himself not everybody has that. Opportunity and,
Speaker 6: so if, anything WHAT i would, say and is the
Speaker 6: most important thing THAT i think can come, out is
Speaker 6: that people understand that these are our brothers and sisters
Speaker 6: when they went into, prison whether rightfully or wrongfully, convicted
Speaker 6: and there are our brothers and sisters when they come.
Speaker 6: Out one of the, reasons And jimmy AND i talk about.
Speaker 6: Faith i'm the daughter of Two United methodist. Ministers my
Speaker 6: father ran close prison ministries WHEN i was a, child
Speaker 6: SO i spent a good deal of time in. JAIL
Speaker 6: i spent several birthdays in. Jail and one THING i
Speaker 6: was always taught is not your, circumstances it's how you
Speaker 6: deal with those. Circumstances and one of the things that
Speaker 6: really has drawn me To jimmy IS i have been
Speaker 6: inordinately blessed in my. LIFE i can't imagine confronting what
Speaker 6: he's confronted and doing it with the grace.
Speaker 4: That he has done it with amen to, that.
Speaker 6: And SO i just, say if anyone is, listening please reach,
Speaker 6: out look at what opportunities for re entry are there
Speaker 6: in your, communities and try to get, involved because we
Speaker 6: are all part of the society and we've got to
Speaker 6: figure out how to make us all.
Speaker 3: One As leslie, SAID i went through thirteen attorneys throughout
Speaker 3: a twenty about a twenty three year. PERIOD i went
Speaker 3: through thirteen attorneys that never foul a habit's corpus or
Speaker 3: on my, behalf AND i strongly suggest the people to
Speaker 3: have legal representation before you encounter any type of situation
Speaker 3: that that is similar to mine or just like. Mine
Speaker 3: we have life, insurance we got home, insurance car, insurance
Speaker 3: and these. Insurance these insurances are something that we're paying
Speaker 3: for prior to us getting involved in an, accident or
Speaker 3: prior to us, dying or prior to us having something
Speaker 3: happened to our home or. Something SO i am A
Speaker 3: Legal Shield. Associate you can pay a fee that will
Speaker 3: cover you and if you're getting involved in any type of,
Speaker 3: accidents be, covered having an attorney already on, standby then
Speaker 3: have access to your. Attorney twenty four to seven questions
Speaker 3: twenty four to, Seven i'm. COVERED i want you to be.
Speaker 3: Covered and It's Legal Shield associate dot com Slash JIMMY.
Speaker 3: C gardner and you can actually reach me and go
Speaker 3: on and sign up right now and be.
Speaker 5: Covered don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever
Speaker 5: you get your.
Speaker 4: Podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor.
Speaker 5: To The Innocence, project AND i really hope you'll join
Speaker 5: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to
Speaker 5: prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to
Speaker 5: learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to
Speaker 5: thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the
Speaker 5: music in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated
Speaker 5: Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram
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Speaker 5: Wrongful conviction With Jason flamm is a production Of lava
Speaker 5: For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company number one