1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,080
Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

2
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

3
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,040
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

4
00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:18,440
Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

5
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,800
Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

6
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

7
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 2: they are breaking the lord.

8
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

9
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,519
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

10
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,559
Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

11
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,600
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

12
00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:38,640
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

13
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

14
00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,840
Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

15
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,200
Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,

16
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.

17
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 3: They can.

18
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction.

19
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Today. I

20
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 5: have a unusually strong group of guests. And I say

21
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 5: group because, first of all, the star of our show,

22
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,959
Speaker 5: who was on his way to being a star baseball

23
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 5: player actually before this insanity happened, is Jimmy Gardner.

24
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 3: Jimmy C.

25
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,400
Speaker 6: Gardner shares his story of being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated

26
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,560
Speaker 6: for almost twenty seven years.

27
00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,160
Speaker 7: Jimmy Garden was a Charleston, West Virginia minor league baseball player,

28
00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,840
Speaker 7: and he was accused of sexual assault in nineteen eighty seven.

29
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,279
Speaker 7: This case was overturned of investigators spout out the state's

30
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 7: expert lied on the witness stand, but his fight for

31
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 7: justice is far from over.

32
00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 4: Jimmy, Welcome to wrongful Conviction.

33
00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

34
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:04,680
Speaker 5: Jason Bolden, his attorney, is here. Scott, welcome to ronful Conviction.

35
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 8: Thank you for having us.

36
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 5: And a very unusual occurrence is happening here at Wrongful

37
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,920
Speaker 5: Conviction today. This is a great pleasure for me and

38
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 5: an honor to have you hear your honor because we

39
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,360
Speaker 5: have the honorable Leslie Abrams here, federal judge from Georgia.

40
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 4: So judge welcome, Thank you very much.

41
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 5: So Jimmy, Yes, Now, first of all, let me just contextualize,

42
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 5: because obviously you can't see, but Jimmy may well be

43
00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,840
Speaker 5: the handsomest guy we've ever had on the show.

44
00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 4: He's six' four and looks like a movie. Star but

45
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:41,960
Speaker 4: you were actually a.

46
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 5: Pitcher, yes in The cubs organization is an interesting story,

47
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,520
Speaker 5: Too BUT i want to go.

48
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,800
Speaker 4: Further back than, that it's. Okay so where did you grow?

49
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 4: Up how did you grow?

50
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,040
Speaker 5: Up how was your life before it really was going

51
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 5: to a place that all of, us like, me as a,

52
00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 5: CHILD i fantasized.

53
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,679
Speaker 4: ABOUT i wanted that. LIFE i wanted to play for

54
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 4: the for The.

55
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 5: Mets, yes quite, okay and then it turned and then

56
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 5: it turned into a horror.

57
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,880
Speaker 3: Show but how did it? Start, Yeah i'll take you

58
00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 3: back to the very. BEGINNINGS i am originally born In, Dawson.

59
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,240
Speaker 3: Georgia we left WHEN i WAS i say, Two my

60
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 3: mother says three years, old So i'll go with. Three

61
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 3: we left and went To, Tampa. Florida and In Tampa,

62
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 3: florida that's WHERE i was raised. AT i went through

63
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,160
Speaker 3: The Tampa Florida school, System Hillsborough County School. SYSTEM i

64
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 3: played sports in The Tampa bay. Area, football, baseball, basketball

65
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,519
Speaker 3: just a variety of sports.

66
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 5: Where you were starting the other sports as. Well imagine

67
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 5: you were a starring. Baseball i'm not gonna say. STAR

68
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 5: i Mean i'm gonna be humble and SAY i was

69
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,119
Speaker 5: playing amongst, great great athletes In, Tampa. FLORIDA i think

70
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 5: the best in the world at those. Times in the

71
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,480
Speaker 5: in the seventies early.

72
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 4: Eighties, yes so you had A i mean your childhood was.

73
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 3: Good, childhood childhood was, Great, Okay, Yeah Tampa. FLORIDA i

74
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 3: strongly let people Know i'm from The Bay area and

75
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 3: basically what you're seeing today is just representation of EVERYTHING

76
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360
Speaker 3: i came up Through Tampa. Florida, coaches my family, members great,

77
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 3: aunts great, uncles i, mean, cousins just my entire. Life

78
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,279
Speaker 3: i've been around nothing but positivity and just total just

79
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 3: total acceptance and uplifting of people that were just good.

80
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,880
Speaker 3: People and That's Tampa. Florida so you chose, baseball, yes

81
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 3: how to go from? There, WELL i got drafted out

82
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,479
Speaker 3: Of Tampa Baifacational Technico High school in nineteen eighty four

83
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,160
Speaker 3: by The Chicago. Cubs and it's a little ironic because

84
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 3: playing in nineteen seventy, six seventy seven with The Little League,

85
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,919
Speaker 3: CUBS i told my, coach Coach Zeke god bless his.

86
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,479
Speaker 3: Soul Coach Zeke Sai jimmy c you are the best

87
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 3: in the. World and that was one of his favorite.

88
00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 3: Things he tell, guys you're the best in the. World

89
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,280
Speaker 3: AND i told, HIM i, Said, Coach i'm gonna play

90
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 3: for the Real cubs one, day and he, SAID i

91
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,160
Speaker 3: know you. Will that was in nineteen seventy. Six so

92
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty FOUR i got drafted by The Chicago

93
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 3: cubs AND i played minor league with The Chicago cubs

94
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 3: for four. Seasons and out of those four, SEASONS i

95
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,359
Speaker 3: had some good, seasons met some good. Guys played nineteen

96
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 3: eighty four With Greg maddox In, Pakeville. Kentucky played With Jamie,

97
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 3: Moarrior Joe. Girardi just a lot of, names a lot

98
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 3: of GUYS i played with and had opportunities to just

99
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 3: interact with throughout my.

100
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,160
Speaker 5: Career and for people who are listening who may not

101
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 5: be baseball fans or maybe, young these.

102
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:28,600
Speaker 4: Are legends that we're talking.

103
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,919
Speaker 5: About you're just reeling off names that are, like you,

104
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 5: know The hall Of, fame one after the. Other so

105
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 5: there you are waiting to get the call to go

106
00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,080
Speaker 5: to get get tapped on the shoulder and go to

107
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 5: the big, leagues you, know and where The cubs uniform

108
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 5: and regular field and the whole, thing and then everything

109
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 5: goes horribly wrong in a way that, IS i think

110
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 5: to the average person. Unimaginable, yes and in your. Case

111
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,719
Speaker 5: it's very clear that what happened to you was deliberate

112
00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 5: on the part of not just one, person but several people,

113
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 5: who for Reasons i'll never, understand just decided that they

114
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 5: were going to pin, horrendous inexplicable. Crime yes on, you

115
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,600
Speaker 5: did you know anything about this. Crime it's a crime

116
00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,159
Speaker 5: that happened In West, virginia.

117
00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 3: Right, yes this crime happened in nineteen eighty. SEVEN i

118
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 3: was playing for The Charleston wheelers In, Charleston West virginia

119
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,599
Speaker 3: during the. Season i'm going to say In may the

120
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,640
Speaker 3: first crime, occurred and then In june the next crime,

121
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,479
Speaker 3: occurred and the crime was a sexual assault against one

122
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,480
Speaker 3: white woman In may and another white woman In.

123
00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 5: June you left that an important details were talking about

124
00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,360
Speaker 5: at eighty six year old woman and her, daughter, right

125
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:40,720
Speaker 5: a sixty year old woman.

126
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,360
Speaker 3: Right in one, case eighty something year old woman and

127
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 3: her daughter was. Assaulted her mother was beat, up but

128
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,159
Speaker 3: the woman was. Assaulted in the other, case the woman

129
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 3: was about forty something and she was assaulted and beat.

130
00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,480
Speaker 3: Up and this all came about the description that the

131
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,520
Speaker 3: women gave were that this guy was a light to

132
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,040
Speaker 3: medium Complexion African american about six foot, tall.

133
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,279
Speaker 5: Right and for people listening at, home that wouldn't be

134
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:10,520
Speaker 5: a way THAT i would describe.

135
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:10,600
Speaker 4: You.

136
00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 5: JIMMY i, Mean jimmy is a dark Skinned African american,

137
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,600
Speaker 5: man was about six y four and looks. Taller so,

138
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,120
Speaker 5: yeah the description was pretty. Off and it was a

139
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 5: description that was given by more than one. Person and

140
00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,200
Speaker 5: we know descriptions can are not. Perfect the mind is

141
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,680
Speaker 5: not a. Camera but still that didn't match, up, no.

142
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 3: Sir and during the, SEASON i, mean when these crimes,

143
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 3: occurred these horrific crimes, occurred The Charleston Police department was

144
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 3: basically gathering information and rounding up blacks from all over the.

145
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 3: City there were over one hundred AND i believe one

146
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 3: hundred and forty or one hundred Plus African americans male that

147
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 3: were rounded up and taken to the police department fingerprinted

148
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 3: photos and things of that, order including myself in about

149
00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,120
Speaker 3: six black guys off the baseball. Team all of us

150
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 3: were actually taken to the police department fingerprint. Photoed they

151
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 3: told me nothing. Match this was in nineteen eighty. Seven

152
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 3: fast forward to nineteen eighty, NINE i was confronted by

153
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,640
Speaker 3: policemen From Charleston West virginia saying that my prints now. Match,

154
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 3: well one print now matches from a crime, scene but

155
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 3: it no longer was a thumb. Print it was now

156
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 3: a left middle. Fingerprint they just made a mistake on

157
00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 3: THE i guess the definition of the print or characterizing the.

158
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 4: Print so that's what connects, this, Right, yes so they.

159
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 3: And they said they rechecked my prints and now they matched.

160
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 4: Magically, yes they had the wrong, finger they had the

161
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 4: wrong Dest.

162
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 3: What they said at the time that the individuals that

163
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 3: were in the department didn't have the knowledge of doing.

164
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 4: Fingerprints, well and that's an interesting. Thing It's.

165
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 5: SCOT i like to turn to you for a second,

166
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 5: too because we know that the standards that are maintained

167
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,720
Speaker 5: for fingerprint analysis are shoddy at, best, right.

168
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 4: Especially in smaller towns across the.

169
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 8: Country The, Cherlston West Virginia Police department or the state

170
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,840
Speaker 8: police in this, case they had the. Expertise they certainly.

171
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 8: Did they just had a bad. Actor the chief zerologists

172
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 8: for that, department who had been there for several, years

173
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 8: was known within the department to either falsify test results

174
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 8: or to be sloppy with his, analysis as well as

175
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,360
Speaker 8: in his. Testimony so you have the test, results, right

176
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,760
Speaker 8: they get turned over to the. Prosecutor. Right sometimes they

177
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 8: get challenged by defense council. Experts sometimes they. Don't most

178
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,600
Speaker 8: offenders don't have enough money to hire an expert to

179
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 8: do that type of critical. Analysis but in this particular

180
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,880
Speaker 8: case at The State department, lab it would later be

181
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 8: found that the chief erroologist was not only, indicted but

182
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 8: investigated at the federal level as well as at the state,

183
00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:55,079
Speaker 8: level and found that he had not, misinterpreted but purposely

184
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 8: testified falsely on the stand of at least twenty more

185
00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,280
Speaker 8: in individuals Like, jimmy and then secondly that there was

186
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 8: knowledge of others that he worked with that he falsified

187
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,240
Speaker 8: test results in order to make the analysis match that

188
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,200
Speaker 8: the prosecutors used in state court to convict individuals Like Jimmy.

189
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 4: Gardner, Right and That's i'm so glad you're talking.

190
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 5: About this Was Fred, zey right in absolutely, infamous terrible

191
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 5: let to talk about a bad. ACTOR i, mean that's too, kind,

192
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 5: Right this is a guy who was. Vicious he was

193
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,360
Speaker 5: deliberately willfully not BECAUSE i think, so not BECAUSE i say,

194
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,200
Speaker 5: so but because he was convicted of doing. That it

195
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,440
Speaker 5: was sence to four to twelve years in. Prison that's

196
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 5: such a troubling fact, because as you, said what is

197
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 5: a jury to?

198
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 7: Do?

199
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 5: Right they may may not be sophisticated. People they're probably not.

200
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,320
Speaker 5: Scientists you got a guy Like, jimmy Who's i'm guessing

201
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 5: you were represented by a public defender at that, Time.

202
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,040
Speaker 3: Yes public defunder that was his first, case.

203
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:54,640
Speaker 4: First case out of law.

204
00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,480
Speaker 5: School, yes, Sir, Wow, okay that's a plot twist. Too

205
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,200
Speaker 5: so what is either of you, guys or even You Judge,

206
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 5: abrams what is a person to? Do like if you're

207
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 5: sitting at home and you're, going, well IF i go

208
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,480
Speaker 5: on a jury and a guy gets up there AND

209
00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,560
Speaker 5: i don't know if he's lying or, not but there's

210
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 5: nobody to tell me any, different how is somebody even

211
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 5: supposed to get to the Truth when you have a

212
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 5: guy like that who's up there Going i'm accredited from

213
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 5: this university AND i went to, this AND i went to,

214
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 5: that what's a person to?

215
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,920
Speaker 6: Do from my point of, view that's where the pre

216
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 6: trial process comes. In that's why we have the adversarial.

217
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,920
Speaker 6: System if you have a good defense, ATTORNEY i want

218
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,360
Speaker 6: to step back and speak a couple of steps back

219
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 6: Because i've read the filings in this, case BUT i

220
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,400
Speaker 6: wasn't involved in this. Case but WHEN i look at,

221
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 6: it to even get to the point where you put

222
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 6: it before the, jury that's why we have all these

223
00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 6: processes in. Place that's why prosecutors have a duty to

224
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 6: turn over any type of exculpatory. Information the prosecutor's. Office

225
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 6: everyone knew about Fred zane before this trial even. Happened

226
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 6: so that's a Clear brad that's a Clear brady. Violation

227
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 6: and as far AS i know that information was never turned,

228
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 6: over you know that yourseroologists has had problems and have

229
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 6: the credentials that he's supposed to have if you're going

230
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 6: to use. It first of, ALL i was a federal

231
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 6: prosecutor at one. POINT i would not have used that.

232
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 6: Information but if you are going to use, it you

233
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,640
Speaker 6: have a duty to tell the other. Side if your

234
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,559
Speaker 6: client is telling you they told me that the blood

235
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 6: type didn't, match and now it, does then the defense

236
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,199
Speaker 6: attorney should have investigated. That so when you're talking about

237
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 6: how does a jury know what to? Do we do

238
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 6: have the system when it works, right when it's not

239
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,400
Speaker 6: deliberately being. Undermined has these stops in place where that

240
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,959
Speaker 6: testimony never should have come. In a jury never should

241
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,559
Speaker 6: have been confronted with.

242
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,480
Speaker 5: That they had no chance of getting it. Right i'm

243
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,280
Speaker 5: guessing you would probably, say as one of the exon

244
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 5: oraigation strong as he, said you, KNOW i would have convicted,

245
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 5: me you, know with the evidence that was presented and

246
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,720
Speaker 5: the lack of defense that my attorney, MOUNTED i would

247
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:49,240
Speaker 5: have convicted.

248
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 4: ME i, mean maybe you feel the same way in your.

249
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 3: Case, NO i don't feel that. Way my jury deliberated

250
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,080
Speaker 3: for four and a half. Days, wow they were out

251
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,839
Speaker 3: and they'd always come back and say were, deadlocked and

252
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 3: in the beginning of that deadlock was in favor of

253
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,679
Speaker 3: me from, US i guess. Inquiring but that process went

254
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 3: on for four and a half.

255
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,839
Speaker 4: Days that's got to be four and a half days

256
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,040
Speaker 4: of absolute. TORTURE i, mean as it.

257
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 3: Was but to hear my attorney, saying you, know this

258
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 3: is in our, favor.

259
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,400
Speaker 4: And how would he Know he just got out of

260
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 4: law school that men.

261
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 3: Day to come back with a decision of guilty on one,

262
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,080
Speaker 3: case not guilty on the other, case which WAS i

263
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,600
Speaker 3: believe a compromise verdict was that was. DEVASTATING i mean

264
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 3: it even gets worse than. That to add salt to the,

265
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,440
Speaker 3: INJURY i go back to the county jail and someone

266
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,720
Speaker 3: has broken into my cell and took my family, photo

267
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 3: my pictures of my, family my address book with my.

268
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 3: Numbers they've called my lady friend at the, time you,

269
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,080
Speaker 3: know that was compounded with the guilty verdic that was

270
00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 3: a rough.

271
00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 4: Day oh my. God you.

272
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,520
Speaker 5: Know one of the THINGS i harp on and that obsess,

273
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 5: on is that we have an unequal system of justice

274
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:05,560
Speaker 5: in this.

275
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 4: Country right with.

276
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,560
Speaker 8: The presumption though most of us who are on juris

277
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 8: or just the average man and, woman we presume the

278
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:19,920
Speaker 8: stability of this institution called, justice called, Prosecutors states attorney's,

279
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 8: OFFICES us attorney's, offices we presume we rely on it

280
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,720
Speaker 8: in those systems if they're not reliable or if those

281
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,200
Speaker 8: systems break, down and they break down more often than we.

282
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 8: Think in regard to a case Like Jimmy, garden there

283
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 8: was a complete breakdown of fairness and justice and an

284
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 8: even handed. Approach whether it was the, prosecutor whether it

285
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 8: was a public defender who first case was a double

286
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,240
Speaker 8: assault case like, this whether it was the judge who

287
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 8: forced him to go to trial before this young defense

288
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 8: attorney was. Ready whether it was the prison system and

289
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 8: the guards who worked the courtroom who went back and

290
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 8: presumably took and stole his, stuff we can't zoom justice

291
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 8: in every. Jurisdiction there are justice systems that are unjust

292
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 8: against whether they're, young poor black men or young poor

293
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 8: white men were the system doesn't. Work i'm not surprised

294
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 8: That Jimmy gardner was convicted because he was convicted before

295
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 8: he sat down and even tried the, case because those

296
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 8: systems not only, failed but those systems were unjust and

297
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 8: hell been on being unjust towards. Him And i'm comfortable

298
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 8: saying that as his attorney post conviction on his.

299
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 4: Part where you didn't have a post, release, rather.

300
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 5: You didn't have a hope in, HELL i mean you

301
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 5: really between all the FACTORS A scott just pointed, OUT i,

302
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 5: mean you were.

303
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,680
Speaker 4: Done it's actually a miracle that they deliberated for four

304
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:41,240
Speaker 4: and a half.

305
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 5: DAYS i would have been less surprised if you said

306
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,880
Speaker 5: four and a half hours or forty five, minutes because

307
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 5: they were not presented with the facts at. All SO

308
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 5: i give some credit to the jury that they actually

309
00:15:51,480 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 5: spent that much, time but that didn't help. YOU i,

310
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 5: mean what an extreme. Right you're going from having all

311
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 5: star dreams from the dream LIKE i said that many of,

312
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 5: us Most american boys grow up with, right which is

313
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 5: playing baseball in the major, leagues which was actually within,

314
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 5: reach and all of a, sudden you're going from pretty

315
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,120
Speaker 5: close to the tippy top to the absolute depths of.

316
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 4: Hell can you describe the? MOMENT i, mean.

317
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 5: You were there for four and a half, days twisting

318
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 5: in the. Wind every day you showed up in court

319
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 5: wishing hope and praying whatever your thing. Is then you

320
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 5: not only get, convicted but sentenced to essentially life, sentence,

321
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 5: right one hundred and ten years in, PRISONEL i, mean

322
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 5: what was that?

323
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 4: Moment?

324
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 3: LIKE i, Mean i'll back it up a little. Bit

325
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 3: WHEN i first arrived Into, Charleston West. VIRGINIA i can

326
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 3: still recall all the guys in the, jail says telling.

327
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 3: Me they called Me. Florida they, Said. Florida you can't win.

328
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 3: Here you just don't go to trial and win. Here

329
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 3: And i'm telling the Guys i'm not guilty of these. Crimes.

330
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 3: Man they, said, man but you can't. Win you don't

331
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 3: win In Charleston West. Virginia and at this, Time i'm

332
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,199
Speaker 3: knowing THAT i did not do these, crimes AND i

333
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 3: don't have that worry that you guys are talking. About

334
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:24,480
Speaker 3: you guys are talking.

335
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,199
Speaker 4: About you.

336
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 3: KNOW i had the prosecution offer ten years to, me

337
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 3: and my lawyer, said he, said Mister, garden this is

338
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,120
Speaker 3: the best deal that you will ever. Get these are

339
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 3: ten years for these type of. Charges they, said you

340
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,200
Speaker 3: go to, trial you'll get ten times. This he, said

341
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 3: you'll get beyond. That he, said this is the best.

342
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,639
Speaker 3: Deal he tried everything to get me to take a.

343
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,159
Speaker 3: DEAL i, SAID i didn't do the. Crimes i'm not

344
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,920
Speaker 3: guilty of these. Crimes i'm not pleading guilty to. Anything

345
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 3: and those ten years turned into one hundred and ten

346
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,920
Speaker 3: years ONCE i was. Convicted and going through that process

347
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 3: UNTIL i was actually convicted AND i heard the jury say,

348
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,160
Speaker 3: GUILTY i did not think THAT i would be found.

349
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,640
Speaker 3: Guilty that's what made it such a shock going, back,

350
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 3: because AS i, say the attorney's telling, me the longer

351
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 3: they stay, out this is excellent for. Us you, know

352
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 3: this is. Excellent they can't come to an agreement and

353
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 3: the judge steady sends them. Back you gotta go. Back they,

354
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 3: said we, judge we're. Dead we're at a position we

355
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 3: can't move. Forward you gotta go. Back how long is a?

356
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 3: Trial probably a, week and in the END i was

357
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,679
Speaker 3: actually convicted and sent it to one hundred and ten,

358
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 3: years which was a, shocker to say the.

359
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 5: Least to go from that and to come to where

360
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 5: you are, now how did you manage to bounce?

361
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 4: Back how did you manage to? Persevere how did you

362
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 4: manage to?

363
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 3: FIGHT i, mean it's a, process and that's not a

364
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 3: process that's done. Overnight at that, point AFTER i was

365
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 3: CON i MEAN i was in, shock BUT i knew

366
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 3: in my MIND i was in for a. FIGHT i

367
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 3: knew that there's no time for crying and laying. Down

368
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 3: that's just the individual THAT i am and my. Upbringing you,

369
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 3: know it's not time to really cry and. SULK i

370
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,639
Speaker 3: know it's time to fight for my. Life AND i

371
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 3: GUESS i had been bred for this. Adversity adversity is

372
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:33,120
Speaker 3: something That i've had to overcome and basically outlast my entire.

373
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,479
Speaker 3: Life and this guilty, verdict this guilty, verdict was a

374
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 3: slam to, me BUT i just know it changed my entire.

375
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 3: Life the young lady THAT i was dating at the.

376
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,159
Speaker 3: TIME i had to let her know that our relationship

377
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 3: was over and let her know That i'm In, Charleston

378
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 3: West virginia with my life basically just taking from, me

379
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 3: AND i gotta. Fight SO i ended a relationship in

380
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty well nineteen ninety that began in nineteen eighty,

381
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 3: three and that was a difficult, decision BUT i just

382
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 3: ended that BECAUSE i knew Now i'm In, Charleston West,

383
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 3: virginia a young man From, Tampa. Florida i'm used to

384
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 3: being in a totally different environment and Now I'm, Charleston West,

385
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 3: virginia where it's ninety eight percent white In West virginia

386
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,439
Speaker 3: and two percent black at that, time which was that

387
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 3: was major to. Me BUT i have to put in

388
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 3: my mind this is live or. Die SO i can

389
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 3: still recall in the courtroom telling my mother and my,

390
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 3: grandmother don't. Cry you, Know i'm telling don't. Cry do

391
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 3: not let them see you. Cry don't show. Tears i'm

392
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 3: not showing tears at this. Moment this is a time

393
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,199
Speaker 3: THAT i must be, strong AND i wanted them to be,

394
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 3: strong SO i just remained strong for. Them mostly of,

395
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 3: course WHEN i got back to the, CELL i had

396
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 3: to let it. Out but you, KNOW i, mean it's almost.

397
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 3: Indescribable it.

398
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 5: IS i, mean it's impossible for any of us to understand.

399
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 5: It so you end up going to maximum security prison

400
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 5: In West.

401
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 4: Virginia, yes which prison did they send you? To and

402
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 4: how violent was?

403
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 5: It even among maximum security, prisons there are some that

404
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 5: are more chaotic and more.

405
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 4: Violent so what was your.

406
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 3: Experience, well WHEN i first went into The West virginia prison,

407
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 3: SYSTEM i went to The West Virginia penitentiary In, Moundsville West,

408
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 3: virginia and this penitentiary was actually declared unlivable at the.

409
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 3: TIME i guess they were in the process of closing

410
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 3: the prison. Down.

411
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 4: Unlivable that's an interesting, word.

412
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah because it had been deemed just horrible the conditions and.

413
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 3: Everything AND i still remember the DAY i arrived at

414
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 3: the prison and ALL i could do was just kind

415
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 3: of stand back on the wall and look at the

416
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 3: different faces of. INDIVIDUALS i, Mean I'm i'm From, Tampa.

417
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: Florida i'm in an ENVIRONMENT i know no, One and

418
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 3: you have, skinheads arian, brotherhoods motorcycle, games, cluecutsklant you got

419
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: a number of gangs within this. Prison and it may

420
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 3: have been out of fifteen hundred, prisoners it may have

421
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 3: been a hundred black, guys may. NOT i don't even

422
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 3: think it was one hundred black. Guys it was a different.

423
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 3: World it was a, very very different. World the majority

424
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 3: of the black guys, WERE i musta, say a little

425
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 3: subservient to a degree because they didn't want any. Trouble you,

426
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 3: know it was certain hits being sent out on. INDIVIDUALS

427
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 3: i mean it was a actual. Hits oh, yeah oh.

428
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 3: Sure and it was just a completely different world for

429
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: me at that. Time and my first objective WAS i

430
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 3: gotta get to the law. LIBRARY i gotta learn this. Law,

431
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 3: UNFORTUNATELY i was encountered by an individual that ultimately led

432
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 3: to me going to lock up for a little. Bit

433
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 3: SO i spent a few years in lock up over

434
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 3: an INCIDENT i don't choose to speak about, today but

435
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 3: it was a fight that turned into a little bit.

436
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 3: More and next thing you, Know i'm on lock up

437
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: for a period of. Years and what is that lock

438
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 3: up is punter, segregation, right and on punter segregation In,

439
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 3: Moundsville West Virginia. Penitentiary it's worse than the mainline population

440
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 3: it was pretty. Rough you had officers that had. Shotguns

441
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: there was a couple of shotguns on every. Section it

442
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 3: seems like shotgun, here shotgun over, here, shotgun, shotgun, Shotgun

443
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 3: and you're on the inside and it's just all this this,

444
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 3: steel these little. CAGES i can touch all four walls

445
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 3: by just reaching out and touching the walls from north

446
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: to southeast to. West and the sale was that little

447
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 3: with the little, sink toilet and the, bed AND i

448
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 3: stayed over there for a period of, time and that

449
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 3: gave me an opportunity to really hone in on WHO

450
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,479
Speaker 3: i was and WHO i. AM i started, READING i started.

451
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 3: STUDYING i made my way to the law library versus

452
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 3: going out to work. Out you have an, option you

453
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: can work, out or you can go to the law.

454
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: Library so my law library time started about two or

455
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 3: three in the, morning SO i would go to the law.

456
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 3: Library and it's ironic that one of The Arian brotherhood,

457
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: guys he taught me how to, shepherdize taught me how

458
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 3: to go in and read all different cases and familiarize

459
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 3: myself with the legal. Process he really helped me gain

460
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 3: a foundation in. Law on lock.

461
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: Up that's that for a, second that's kind of.

462
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 3: Amazing that Was that was my first. Encounter AND i

463
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: always tell, people you, Know i'm indebted to this, guy.

464
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 5: An arian brotherhood guy teaching one of the few black

465
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 5: guys the maximum security prison In West virginia about the

466
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 5: law is something worth spending a moment.

467
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 4: ON i, mean this Is do you remember this guy's, name.

468
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure Joker Marcus. Cockrum we became the best of.

469
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: Friends from not knowing anything to he taking the time

470
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 3: out to go over with me in this law library

471
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: about similar, cases reading up on, this understanding the different

472
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: writs and, filings and you, KNOW i, mean it was.

473
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: Priceless AND i can still hear him, saying you will

474
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: not do a lot of time on this because this is.

475
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 3: Crazy your case will be one of the biggest cases

476
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 3: in the state Of West. Virginia and all he used

477
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 3: to talk about, was, man they're gonna pay you so much.

478
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: Money that was what he was. Saying and we actually

479
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: we studied so much and we really became good. Friends

480
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 3: behind that.

481
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 4: Was he still.

482
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 3: In he's still.

483
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: In so you were moved around to a few different.

484
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 3: Presents let me, see From Moundsville Western. Penitentiary we left

485
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: there in nineteen ninety, five they closed the prison. Down

486
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: SO i Left Moundsville Western penitentiary In march of nineteen

487
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 3: ninety five AND i went To Mount Olive Correctional complex

488
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: in Mount, Olive West. VIRGINIA i stayed At Mount Olive

489
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 3: Correctional complex for a period OF i don't, know maybe,

490
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 3: TWO i don't, know seventeen, sixteen seventeen, years BECAUSE i

491
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: Left Mount olive in two thousand and eleven AND i

492
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 3: went To Huttonsville Correctional. CENTER i Left huttonsville and went

493
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 3: To Northern Correctional. Facility THEN i went To Northern Correctional.

494
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: Center THEN i came back To Mount Olive Correctional complex

495
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 3: BEFORE i was, released and that was in twenty. SIXTEEN i, mean.

496
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 5: You really had a tour of the worst places in

497
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 5: sure that anyone can. Imagine let's take the twenty seven

498
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 5: years you were. Incarcerated what was the worst thing that

499
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 5: you saw that happened in all that.

500
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 4: TIME i, mean.

501
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: It's a lot of. Worse the worst happened At. Moundsville

502
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 3: that was the. WORST i go back to the winter

503
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety three In moundsville on. Lockup i've never

504
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: been that cold in my. Life all the windows in

505
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 3: lockup are knocked. Out and this was prior to an

506
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 3: incident that happened in nineteen eighty. Six it was a

507
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 3: riot there in nineteen eighty six and the windows were never.

508
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: Replaced what, Yes so all of these windows are knocked,

509
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: out And i'm on the fourth, TIER i, believe on,

510
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: lockup and the snow is just blowing in and it's just.

511
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: COLD i got all the CLOTHES i, GOT i got

512
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: all my clothes. On i'm so cold THAT i don't

513
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: get up out of bed to eat for a few.

514
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 3: DAYS i remember writing in my, journal this is the

515
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 3: first TIME i ate oat. MEAL i was so hungry

516
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 3: with you. KNOW i got up after like day two

517
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: or three and ate oat. Meal that was. It but

518
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: it was so cold that the toilet was literally. Ice

519
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: in order for me to use the, facility to use the,

520
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: RESTROOM i had to break the ice with my. Shank

521
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: i'd used my, knife my shank to break the ice

522
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: in order to use the. TOILET i had never been

523
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 3: that cold in my. Life AND i, pitched AND i

524
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: pitched In, Wisconsin, Appleton, wisconsin right off Of Lake, michigan

525
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: AND i remember being cold off of That, Lake, michigan

526
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 3: AND i thought that was the, coldest but UNTIL i

527
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: went To, Moundsville West virginia that nineteen ninety three. Winter

528
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: it was so. COLD i kept myself warm by talking and.

529
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: Yelling just it was. Torture and you gotta try. To

530
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: you gotta try, TO i, guess yell and keep, moving

531
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: get to stay. Warm, yeah that was pretty. Rough that

532
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: was the roughest. Time and then on top of, THAT i,

533
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: mean there's stabbings over there every every, day if not

534
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: every other. Day there's so many, gangs there's so many

535
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: hits being sent out in this in this little, area

536
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: and you got stabbings going. On you have the officers

537
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: using the pump. Shotguns i'm still hearing the click. Boom

538
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,239
Speaker 3: that's that's that's the sound shooting. Guys they'll make that,

539
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: warning they say they make a warning, shot but they'll

540
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: actually shoot the buck shots into the. AREA i still

541
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: remember the guy, saying the next one will get. YOU

542
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 3: i won't miss with the next. One the ring from

543
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: that shotgun going, off And i'm crawling on the, ground

544
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: just crawling to try to get away from, this this this,

545
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: situation because you're not expecting nothing like. That to, happen

546
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,239
Speaker 3: shooting going on with then lock. UP i, mean but

547
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: the stablings are happening so so, frequent and the officers

548
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 3: are shooting to stop the stab MEANS i mean not justifying,

549
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: it but it was just Mad lands to. Me i'm,

550
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: Like i'm in a, crazy crazy. Spot SO i had

551
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 3: to take my whole psyche to another. LEVEL i am

552
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: in survival. Mode i'm gonna make it out of. HERE

553
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: i still remember That i'm gonna make it out of.

554
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 3: Here i'm saying, Myself i'm writing this, Down i'm gonna

555
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: make it out of. Here i'm not going to succumb to.

556
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 3: This and you, KNOW i had that in my writing

557
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: and my, journal BUT i kept myself, active you, know

558
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: and that's WHEN i would go to the library AND

559
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: i come, back you, know even While i'm studying the

560
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: law and getting all the INFORMATION i, CAN i started

561
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 3: reading a lot of different. Books i'm reading up On, Catholicism, Buddhism, Rostafarianism, Islam,

562
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: christianity The Bob Da. Vita i'm reading EVERYTHING i can

563
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: read and understand in different. Faiths And i'm also at

564
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: this time doing all my other. Readings you, KNOW i

565
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: always mentioned Doctor Victor frankle's Book Man search For, Meaning

566
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: AND i always Mentioned James James allen as a man

567
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: Thinking i'm just reading so much And i'm taking time

568
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 3: out of my day to read. This reading was, like

569
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: this is getting me through the.

570
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 5: Day you're, freezing you're, starving and you're trying to avoid

571
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 5: being stabbed and. Shot everything else going, OKAY i, MEAN.

572
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 3: I, mean And i'll say, THIS i, mean it was

573
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: a very it was very it was very racist in

574
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: this in this. Prison so you never know when a

575
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: hit may come your, way when when someone may come

576
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 3: you and you don't have to even be the subject of.

577
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: Intent you don't have to be that. Person you don't

578
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: even know the. Person i'll never forget the one guy

579
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 3: next to, me he wouldn't come out of the. Cell you,

580
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: know it's guys that wouldn't come out and wouldn't go

581
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: to shower and wouldn't come out of that. Cell and

582
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: it's okay with the. Officers you used to stay in the,

583
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: sell but it's guys that would not come out AND

584
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: i AND i would go to. THEM i was, like,

585
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: hey come on out to, sale come to the. Shower

586
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 3: you have a showered, today you have a shower in a,

587
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 3: week come on out of, there and you, know guys

588
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 3: would literally, Say i'm not coming out there to be. Killed.

589
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 5: Gudge let me ask, you BECAUSE i think there's something

590
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 5: in The constitution about cruel and unusual, punishment how does

591
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 5: this go on the scenario That jimmy is. Describing it

592
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 5: must be what the founding fathers had in mind when

593
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 5: they wrote.

594
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 6: That, unfortunately this is a reality of the country we

595
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 6: live in. Now, legally there would be a great uproar

596
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 6: if we found or somebody made a big deal about

597
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 6: how some of our elderly are being treated and assisted living.

598
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 6: Homes BUT i guarantee you it would be a different

599
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 6: situation where the law would react very differently for someone

600
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 6: on the outside than they do when we're dealing with

601
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 6: prisoners who sometimes we forget are still. Citizens they are Still,

602
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 6: Americans they're still entitled to all of their constitutional. Rights and,

603
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 6: so to answer the, question not, passionately but, legally there

604
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 6: is a mechanism to address. That but is it, ADEQUATE

605
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 6: i would say, no.

606
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 5: The scenario That jimmy's describing in most, STATES i think

607
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 5: if you treated your.

608
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 4: Dog that, way go to, jail you go to. Jail

609
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 4: you can't leave your.

610
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 5: Dog in a tiny enclosure in freezing temperature sub freezing.

611
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 5: Temperatures it's.

612
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 6: Unconstable AND i, MEAN i will, say because of WHAT i,

613
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 6: DO i have to, believe AND i do believe that

614
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 6: there is a possibility of. Justice so this prison That

615
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 6: jimmy was in was because of a legal case. Condemned

616
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 6: now it was condemned six years before they closed, it

617
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 6: but legally there was a case saying you cannot house

618
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 6: people in these. Conditions what happens with the administration after

619
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 6: that decision comes down is something entirely. Different SO i

620
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 6: would certainly agree the laws to protect our animals are

621
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 6: oftentime more stringent and more closely followed than we do

622
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 6: to protect our brothers and. Sisters and that is a

623
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 6: very big problem in this.

624
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 3: Country it's so.

625
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 5: Nuts right one, day you're just a person walking around

626
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 5: the street with your, Rights but as soon as that

627
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 5: switch goes off and you're caught up in the criminal justice,

628
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 5: system you're not treated as a human being.

629
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 4: Anymore that's got to, Change and when.

630
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 6: We look at, it even in the most self serving,

631
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 6: way for the most, part people are going to get

632
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 6: out of prison at some. Point they're going to be

633
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 6: in our, neighborhoods they're going to be in the, supermarkets

634
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 6: they're going to be back in, society and if we

635
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 6: have treated them as subhuman for however long they're, there

636
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 6: we are going to reap the consequences of how they're

637
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 6: going to react when they come. Out one of the

638
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 6: THINGS i admire most About jimmy is that he'll say

639
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 6: that even though he was in, jail his mind was never.

640
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: There, well, unusual he is an unusual.

641
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 6: Person but we really do have to step back and

642
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 6: look at how we're treating. People even if you don't,

643
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 6: care even if you did something bad AND i don't

644
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 6: care about, you be selfish and understand that for the most,

645
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 6: part they're going to come back out and then you're

646
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 6: going to have.

647
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: To deal with.

648
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 6: It that's why we're doing re and treat work with

649
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 6: people needing, jobs needing, housing all of these. Things we

650
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 6: have to keep in mind that we are all part

651
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 6: of the same society and we've all got live in.

652
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 5: It we need to do, Better we need to do.

653
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 5: Better we need to treat our people as. People, So,

654
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 5: jimmy how did it? Transpire how'd you? Rebound how did

655
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 5: you get. Out what was that moment like when you got?

656
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 3: OUT i, MEAN i was. OVERJOYED i was released through

657
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 3: the federal. COURTS i spent forty six months in federal

658
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 3: court on top of a twenty three year in order

659
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: to delay in state. Court and my mother Is Gladys.

660
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 3: Gardner you, know my mom's a, very very praying, woman

661
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: and she she has. VISIONS i was waiting up to

662
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: six maybe five months at the, time and my mom, said,

663
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: WELL i went in the closet and you're coming. Home

664
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: you be getting ready to get your, rule and you're

665
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 3: coming home this. Week she, says so go ahead and

666
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 3: pack up. Everything AND i, said, Okay. MOM i was

667
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 3: talking to her That, sunday AND i got the call

668
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: On friday from my attorney telling me that the case

669
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: had been, overturned conviction, vacated and either set for retrial or.

670
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: Release AND i call and let my mother know. That That,

671
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 3: FRIDAY i, Said, MAMA i got the, ruling but she

672
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 3: already saw.

673
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 4: It she saw a. Vision.

674
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah LIKE i, said my mother's very very, praying very

675
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: very prayer and. Spiritual AND i had been preparing For april,

676
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: first seemed like all my, life every year that would go.

677
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: BY i. PRAY i, Said, god please let me come

678
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: home this. Year It's january, first AND i watched that

679
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 3: ball drop right here In New. YORK i watched that ball,

680
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: drop AND i, Say, god let this be my. Year one,

681
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: Day i'm gonna go and watch that ball. Drop AND

682
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: i said, that AND i believe that one. Wholeheartedly every,

683
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 3: YEAR i would, Say, god let this be the. Year

684
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: that's a few days went, by BUT i watched that ball,

685
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 3: drop AND i watched that every. Year let this be my.

686
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: Year AND i go through my years in, prison letting

687
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: guys Know i'm going home this.

688
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 5: Year well let's go back to, that, though because you

689
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 5: actually bumped into a very principled judge who made a

690
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 5: very strong ruling and an even stronger statement when he

691
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 5: announced that.

692
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: Your conviction was being.

693
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 5: Overturned and you must have very special feelings for that.

694
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 5: MAN i don't know, him But i'd like to meet

695
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 5: him sometimes shoe his. Hand so can you talk about?

696
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: That oh YES i, can with great. Pleasure you're speaking

697
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: about The District Court Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin out The

698
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 3: Southern district Of West. VIRGINIA i fouled my case into his.

699
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 3: Court In june of twenty twelve And november of twenty,

700
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: Thirteen Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin granted my petition and enabled

701
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 3: me to come into federal, court which was a miracle

702
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i had no, standing no legal, standing AND i

703
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: also filed under the denial of access to the, court

704
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: denial of equal protection and due, process which aren't you,

705
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 3: know issues that aren't cognizable in federal. Court you, know

706
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: it has to be an issue dealing with constitution violation

707
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 3: that emanated from your. Trial So i'm going in already knowing,

708
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: this AND i tell YOU i placed one of my

709
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: petitions into my filing BECAUSE i was asked to do

710
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 3: that by a guy by the name of Courtnel. Day

711
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: so he, said, man you got so many petitions you

712
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: file in, court, man just go ahead and throw one.

713
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 3: In let them know you have. Something SO i did,

714
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: that But Judge goodwin denied my, petition but he granted

715
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: me into federal court because of my exhibit of one

716
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: of my state court. Petitions and at the end of the,

717
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: Day Judge goodwin ruled THAT i had shown THAT i

718
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 3: had issues that may want some relief in federal. Court

719
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: so he's gonna give me that opportunity to present my

720
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 3: petition to the court and get my case hurt for

721
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 3: the first, time get my case reviewed for the first.

722
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 3: Time this is the first time REVIEW i went in

723
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 3: federal court under a d novo, review my first time

724
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: getting a review in twenty four, years which was. Remarkable

725
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 3: But Judge goodwin stated in his opinion THAT i had

726
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: been in legal purgatory and that it had been a

727
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: total miscarriage of, justice which were some very strong, words

728
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 3: very strong. Words AND i just know that in order

729
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: For Judge goodwin to have the courage to do that

730
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: in the state Of West, virginia that took so much,

731
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 3: Courage that took so MUCH i, MEAN i can't even

732
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: express it to the. Audience and Within Judge goodwin's, OPINION i,

733
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: mean he's right across the, hall even the same city

734
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 3: as the state judge that sends me to one hundred

735
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 3: and ten years and they're good. Friends.

736
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 5: Wow and let me just read, something Because Judge holliday

737
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 5: said That zane's That i'm quoting pattern and practice of

738
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 5: misconduct completely undermined the validity and reliability of any forensic

739
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 5: work he performed or, reported and that as a matter of,

740
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 5: law any testimonial or documentary evidence offered By zane at

741
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 5: any time in any criminal prosecution should be deemed, invalid,

742
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 5: unreliable and inadmissible in determining whether to award a new

743
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 5: trial in any subsequent habeas corpus preceding bam. Right SO

744
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 5: i can ask the, judge it sounds to me like

745
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 5: the judge was.

746
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 6: Pissed that was from The Supreme court Of West, virginia and,

747
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 6: yes he was very, upset and that should have formed

748
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 6: the basis for an immediate, rehearing if not. Released that,

749
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 6: DECISION i believe came out in ninety.

750
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: Three november of nineteen ninety, Three so that.

751
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 6: Ruling came out out saying that every person who had

752
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 6: been prosecuted by or convicted by because of testimony From

753
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 6: zay should get a. Rehearing, JIMMY i think was granted

754
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 6: four more than.

755
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: One of the real injustices.

756
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 8: Here isn't Just zaane's deplorable and illegal. Behavior is that

757
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 8: once That Supreme court did its investigation and ordered a

758
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 8: new trial for not Just, jimmy but anyone who had

759
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 8: been convicted based On zane's, evidence they either were going

760
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 8: to be released or they would have to be, retried

761
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 8: and the local prosecutors and these jurisdictions had to determine

762
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 8: which one it was going to. Be the local prosecutors

763
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 8: In jimmy's case decided that they were going to retry

764
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 8: him rightfully or. Wrongfully but then the trial judge in this,

765
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 8: case when he would file his, petitions and you say filed,

766
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 8: FOUR i think he filed more than. That but there

767
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 8: were several state habeas corporate petitions file pursuing to The

768
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 8: Supreme court, decision the State Supreme court, decision and this

769
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 8: particular judge refused to give him a, hearing so he

770
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 8: languished for ten to fifteen, years twenty Years i'm sorry

771
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 8: forgive me twenty years in a state of legal, purgatory

772
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 8: essentially because he could not go to the federal system

773
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 8: until his state case or state habeas case had been

774
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 8: tried or. Heard and for twenty years they didn't hear

775
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 8: it or try, it and so he. Languished he finally

776
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 8: filed something in federal court out of, desperation and this,

777
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 8: judge as federal, judge took it up despite the standing,

778
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 8: issues because how abhorrent the state system had treated. Him

779
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,439
Speaker 8: he had never had a. Hearing so we talked about

780
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 8: those who were who contributed mightily to his twenty seven year.

781
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 8: Incarceration it just wasn't the state police And. Zaying it

782
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 8: was also that you did at the state level that

783
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 8: worked purposely to ensure that he would be in legal

784
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 8: purgatory for twenty. Years so twenty of the twenty seven,

785
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 8: years even After zain was found, out it was the

786
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 8: system and the court system that kept him. There and

787
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 8: so when you talk about making him, whole it's not About,

788
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 8: zayn just About zayn in the State police. Department it's

789
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 8: the state judiciary system and the prosecutors who knew he

790
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 8: was in, prison knew he was, suffering knew they were

791
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 8: on the court order to give him a, hearing and

792
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 8: knew that they weren't giving him.

793
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: That it really is.

794
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 8: Abhorrent and so the fact of the matter, is but

795
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 8: for this federal district court judge who found a way

796
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 8: legally to rule right and to direct them to give

797
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 8: him a new hearing or to let him, go because

798
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 8: now we're in with a federal court judge who's got

799
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 8: a lifetime appointment and says let him go by some

800
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 8: date certain or retrying even after all of, that the

801
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 8: same state, prosecutors the same state police offered or decided

802
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 8: to retry him, again and on the eve of, trial

803
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 8: on the day of, trial approached the bench and decided

804
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 8: they weren't going to retry him allegedly because of lost

805
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 8: witnesses or lost memory of. Witnesses that wasn't the. Case

806
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 8: they couldn't prove the case twenty seven years. Ago they

807
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,479
Speaker 8: couldn't prove it twenty seven years. Later the bottom line

808
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 8: proposition because anything That zain had, touched and anything that

809
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 8: the state lab and those working With zain had touched

810
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 8: was not. Credible and whether you had the witness or,

811
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 8: not it was the tainted evidence that ultimately convicted. Him

812
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 8: and that's the second tragedy of his.

813
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 5: Incarceration it is absolutely fucking nuts That zain was exposed

814
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 5: and actually indicted in nineteen ninety, three but.

815
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 8: He had gone To texas, right had gotten fired from

816
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 8: the position In, texas and when he came, back the

817
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 8: state police and had welcomed him back despite all the

818
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,479
Speaker 8: findings against. Him he worked as a consultant to them

819
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 8: and convicted other people on bad evidence when he returned.

820
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 5: Right powerful bad evidence, TOO i mean because, again hard

821
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 5: to argue with the guy that's up, there but talking

822
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 5: science that people may or may not even unders, well

823
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 5: people can't challenge.

824
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 8: IT i often wondered With jimmy and even the prosecution

825
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 8: on the other, side now That i'm involved in the

826
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 8: case post his, release as who could find the motivation

827
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 8: to wrongfully convict hundreds of innocent people based on bad,

828
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 8: analysis poor, analysis or just perd your testimony on a

829
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 8: repetitive basis a, practice a part and practice of wrongfully convicting.

830
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 8: People what motivates a human being in law? Enforcement who

831
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 8: most of them swear to The constitution and to the,

832
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 8: flag and where the flag on their sleeves on their,

833
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 8: shoulders right to wrongfully convict and criminally through criminal kinds

834
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 8: convict innocent? People where does that come? From what manner

835
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 8: of man is?

836
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 4: That?

837
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 5: Yeah and of course we know that in every one

838
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 5: of these cases in Which zane and others like him have, deliberately,

839
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 5: willfully wrongfully testified against people Like jimmy or they knew were,

840
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 5: innocent in every one of those, cases the actual perpetrator

841
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 5: remain free to go and go and commit.

842
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 4: Other whole another.

843
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,439
Speaker 5: Bucket it's a whole other, bucket but it's an inescapable.

844
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 5: Truth but you, KNOW i want to talk about the good.

845
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 5: Stuff when you actually were let, free did you walk

846
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 5: out of the courtroom like in the movies into the?

847
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 4: Sunlight is that what?

848
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: Happened it was On april, first after the, hearing and

849
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: this hearing is to decide whether or Not i'm going

850
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: to be retried or. Released And Judge Joanna, Tabbot i'm

851
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: in her, courtroom and like my, Attorney Scott bolden, said

852
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 3: the state decided they were going to. Retry So Judge

853
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: Joanna tabbot set a bond in my. Case and she

854
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 3: asked my, mother Miss, gardner can you please stand and

855
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 3: my mother stood up and my mother told her, yes.

856
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 3: Ma'am she, said can you tell me what kind of

857
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 3: bond can you? Make and my mom, SAID i THINK

858
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 3: i can make ten thousand. Dollars And Judge, tabot you,

859
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 3: know which is one of the greatest judges In West

860
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 3: virginia right now her And Judge JOSEPH. R goodmanin federal.

861
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 3: Judge she, said, well the bond is said at ten.

862
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 3: Thousand she, said Missus, gardner take him home with. You

863
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 3: take him, home and my, mother my Sister's Barbara, Gardner,

864
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: Harrison Tracy, simms my Brother Eric, gardner my other, brothers

865
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 3: my Friend Sheila, lewis so many other, people my nephews

866
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 3: and you, know my. Nieces it's so many people waiting

867
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: on me to walk out of that. JAIL i walked

868
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 3: out of that jail When april, first to the arms

869
00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: of my, family and that moment was so. Exhilarating you,

870
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 3: know all of. Us we just met with a big

871
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 3: group hug AND i embraced everyone and we shared a

872
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 3: lot of tears of. Joy of, course the news reporters, like,

873
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 3: well you, know they're seeking to retry Mister. Gardner in my,

874
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 3: MIND i already knew this was, over this was. Over

875
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 3: and my mother said they can do whatever they want

876
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 3: to try this and that she said this is. Over she,

877
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 3: said My god told me this is. Over AND i

878
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 3: knew it was. Over SO i embraced my. Family we. Hugged,

879
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 3: Man we went we went out to, eat we went

880
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 3: to the hotel and, partied AND i mean we. Partied.

881
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: Man you can't put you can't define, it words can't explain.

882
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 5: IT i couldn't even imagine so being. WILD a crazy

883
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 5: thing happened just a couple of months, ago because you've

884
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 5: been out now for about twenty two.

885
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 4: Months what was the date of the formal Exonerate september,

886
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: seventh twenty.

887
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 5: Sixteen so there was another mile stone right that you

888
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 5: knew it was, coming but it still had to be

889
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 5: a great. Feeling, yes, sir you were telling me earlier

890
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 5: about a crazy story in the best possible. Way do

891
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 5: you want to talk about? That?

892
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 3: OKAY i would just say. This you, know Since i've came,

893
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: Home i've had the opportunity to. SPEAK i do my

894
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 3: own speaking. Now I'M Jc Gardner. SPEAKS i have A

895
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: Gardener house incorporated In, Beckley West. Virginia that house is

896
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: a house for returning, citizens giving men opportunities to have, housing, clothing.

897
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 3: Food this is going to get off the ground pretty.

898
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 3: Soon i'm in the process of renovating it. Now And

899
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: i've been speaking and been fortunate to meet so many

900
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 3: people and attend so many different, Universities Congressional Black call

901
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 3: because IT'S i, mean it's just been, phenomenal phenomenal to

902
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 3: say the, least the opportunities That i've. Had but last

903
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 3: YEAR i happened to Meet Judge Leslie abrams in All,

904
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 3: Benny georgia at A Georgia Black Women lawyers associating a

905
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: party or something like, that AND i just happened to

906
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: Meet leslie and we, TALKED i don't, know maybe, hours maybe,

907
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 3: hours so so it was an extended time and it

908
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: was at that time THAT i realized it was it

909
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 3: was something that that was really gravitating me toward. Her

910
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 3: and you, KNOW i felt LIKE i had found WHAT

911
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 3: i was looking. For and Today leslie AND i are a.

912
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 3: COUPLE i, mean my blessings have Been it's like a river.

913
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 5: Flowing you found love in the form of the judge

914
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 5: who happens to be sitting right next to me right.

915
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 5: Now what a like an amazing circle now, RIGHT i,

916
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 5: mean talk about the criminal justice system giving. BACK i,

917
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 5: mean you, know it's like for somebody who has been

918
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 5: as wrong as you can, be it's an amazing it's an,

919
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 5: amazing amazing and, wonderful beautiful part of the. Story and

920
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 5: you're a lucky, man so very, fortunate the luckiest of

921
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 5: the unluckiest people THAT i.

922
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 3: Know i'll, Say i'll say, This, Jason i've been blessed beyond.

923
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 3: IMAGINATION i can't even describe. It i've met nothing but

924
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 3: great people Since i've been. Home it's almost like everything

925
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 3: you encounter is. Gold everything THAT i have encountered since

926
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 3: my time of being home has been good for. Me

927
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 3: i'm in a situation WHERE i Know i've been blessed

928
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 3: beyond imagination and beyond the normal human being can be

929
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: blessed their entire. Lives i'm fortunate to have a great

930
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 3: attorney such As Scott bold and sitting next to, Me

931
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,479
Speaker 3: i'm fortunate to have a great lady in my, life

932
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 3: The Honorable Judge Leslie. Abrams i'm blessed my mother and

933
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,479
Speaker 3: father are still. Here my sisters and brothers are still

934
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 3: on this earth with. Me i'm in the presence of

935
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 3: my nieces and nephews and my family members all the.

936
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 3: Time i am blessed beyond, comparison And i'm blessed with.

937
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: Health to come out Of, Mountsville West Virginia penitentiary and

938
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 3: to go Into mount all The Correctional. Complex to come

939
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 3: out of this situation now for twenty seven years and

940
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 3: be healthy, mentally, physically and spiritually is beyond a blessing the.

941
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 3: Miracle NOW i am in the process of taking some

942
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 3: getting some psychiatric help as far as because you can't

943
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: go in water and not expect to get. Wet SO

944
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 3: i do have to take some classes getting myself reacclimated,

945
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: back get some psychiatric help in that, regard just going

946
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 3: through the, process sharing my bad times perceived with individuals

947
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 3: with a, psychiatrist being in a position to, say, Hey

948
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 3: i'm not at any level trying to Say i'm totally

949
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 3: unblemished or unharmed by this, process because you. Can't you

950
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 3: can't jump in water and not get. Wet SO i

951
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 3: recognize That i'm blessed beyond. Majority but in the position

952
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 3: THAT i am, today my position is to be able

953
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 3: to tell my story to people and let them, know,

954
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 3: hey it's not how you, start it's how you, finish

955
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 3: and it's not what you go through in, life it's

956
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 3: how you deal with what you go through in, life

957
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 3: because we all go through. Something everybody got a, story

958
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 3: AND i tell people that your story is just as

959
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 3: important as my, story but it's how you deal with

960
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 3: it and how you understand that you can only get

961
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 3: through it by really tapping into your higher power and

962
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 3: understanding that it's beyond. YOU i tell people every day

963
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: they say why did this? Happen to, you it's not

964
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 3: even about. Me it's not even about, me it's beyond.

965
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 3: Me it's a level of me being placed on this.

966
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 3: Earth not to play, baseball, basketball football under, that but

967
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 3: to be an, activist an individual that's against. Injustice to

968
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: share my story with, people hoping THAT i can give

969
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 3: them the inspiration and motivation to know that whatever you

970
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 3: going through in, life you can come out of it

971
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 3: and you can be you can be in the best

972
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 3: position of your life if you truly believe in your higher.

973
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 3: Power AND i stress that to tell, People, look if

974
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 3: you can go through, it whatever you're going, Through god

975
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 3: will not place the burden upon you greater than you can.

976
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 3: Handle so no going. In if you're going through, it

977
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: you can handle. It it's, purposeful.

978
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 8: You.

979
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 5: Know usually on the, SHOW i opened up the mic

980
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 5: to the featured guest for closing.

981
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 4: THOUGHTS i feel like you actually right out of my. Mouth,

982
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 4: yeah and that was.

983
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 5: Amazing, So, jimmy how do people if they want to book,

984
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 5: you if they want to donate to your new center

985
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 5: that you're, Building.

986
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 3: Gardener house in corporate www dot jcgardner speaks dot. Com

987
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 3: i'm On twitter AT jc Gardener speaks And i'm Also

988
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 3: instagram J. C gardner, speaks.

989
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 4: You got that, Handle.

990
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 5: I'm gonna, Yeah i'm going to follow you AND i

991
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 5: hope other people will. Too And, scott how do people

992
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 5: reach you if they are in need of your?

993
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:11,760
Speaker 8: Services Ape Bolden boldn at reidre Ed smith dot com

994
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 8: with the law firm Of Reed. SMITH i would argue

995
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 8: that these are very difficult. Cases they take a long,

996
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 8: time and then there's the second story of recovery of

997
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 8: how do you make someone Like Jimmy gardner hole not

998
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 8: just emotionally or, physically or practically or, legally but. Financially

999
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 8: he's lost twenty seven years of his. Life what is

1000
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 8: his life worth after twenty seven years of being in?

1001
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 8: Prison be welcome to look at other. CASES i can

1002
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 8: tell You i'm super focused On jimmy's, case, though because

1003
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 8: we have a couple of lawsuits pending In West. Virginia

1004
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 8: so despite all of this and all the, reports the

1005
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 8: state Of West virginia continues to. Fight now they're free to,

1006
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 8: fight obviously these are civil, lawsuits but given the overwhelming

1007
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 8: evidence and even the judicial reports that confirm this type

1008
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 8: of a really abhorrent, behavior and not just by the

1009
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 8: state lab but also by individuals in the criminal justice. System.

1010
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 8: There our hope and our goal is that we will

1011
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 8: resolved those cases so he can move on completely away

1012
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 8: from those twenty seven. Years right now we're still fighting.

1013
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 5: Though and then, LASTLY i do also like to have

1014
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 5: our other featured guests share any last, thoughts anything that

1015
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 5: you want to get off your, chest or anything you

1016
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 5: want to tell the.

1017
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 4: Audience Judge, WELL i.

1018
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 6: Would say that one of my passions WHEN i was

1019
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 6: a federal, PROSECUTOR i was AN ausa in THE Us

1020
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 6: Attorney's office In. ATLANTA i was hired By Sally, yates

1021
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 6: And Sally ates always talked about doing, justice but she

1022
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 6: talked about it as a three legged, stool and one

1023
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 6: of those legs it was, enforcement, prosecution but it was

1024
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 6: also prevention and re. Entry she was very adamant about that.

1025
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 6: NIGHT i hope that if anything comes out of. This

1026
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 6: one of the things that WHEN i Met, jimmy he

1027
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 6: said we talked for a very long time, time and

1028
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 6: part of that was talking about one how someone could

1029
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 6: go through that experience and come out with the spirit

1030
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 6: that he has come out, with but also what he was.

1031
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 6: Doing we talked About Gardner, house about how he was

1032
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 6: trying to help other people re enter into. SOCIETY i

1033
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 6: was the community outreach coordinator for THE Us Attorney's office

1034
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 6: a period during my time, there AND i did re entry.

1035
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 6: WORK i continue to do re entry work as a

1036
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 6: judge BECAUSE i think it's, very very important for us

1037
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 6: to give returning citizens an. Opportunity not everybody has a

1038
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 6: family that's going to be standing outside when they come.

1039
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 6: Home not everybody is going to have a home to go,

1040
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 6: to food to, eat even understand the. Resources jimmy is extremely,

1041
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 6: educated but the majority of people THAT i see in

1042
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 6: my court have not graduated from high. School would not

1043
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 6: be able to navigate the system as he. Did because

1044
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 6: it hasn't been. Said but understand the petition that got him.

1045
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 6: Out he, wrote he had thirteen lawyers over the. Years

1046
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 6: the only one to file that federal writ was, him

1047
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 6: and he did it. Himself not everybody has that. Opportunity and,

1048
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 6: so if, anything WHAT i would, say and is the

1049
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 6: most important thing THAT i think can come, out is

1050
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 6: that people understand that these are our brothers and sisters

1051
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 6: when they went into, prison whether rightfully or wrongfully, convicted

1052
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 6: and there are our brothers and sisters when they come.

1053
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 6: Out one of the, reasons And jimmy AND i talk about.

1054
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 6: Faith i'm the daughter of Two United methodist. Ministers my

1055
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 6: father ran close prison ministries WHEN i was a, child

1056
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 6: SO i spent a good deal of time in. JAIL

1057
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 6: i spent several birthdays in. Jail and one THING i

1058
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 6: was always taught is not your, circumstances it's how you

1059
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 6: deal with those. Circumstances and one of the things that

1060
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,919
Speaker 6: really has drawn me To jimmy IS i have been

1061
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 6: inordinately blessed in my. LIFE i can't imagine confronting what

1062
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 6: he's confronted and doing it with the grace.

1063
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 4: That he has done it with amen to, that.

1064
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 6: And SO i just, say if anyone is, listening please reach,

1065
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 6: out look at what opportunities for re entry are there

1066
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 6: in your, communities and try to get, involved because we

1067
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 6: are all part of the society and we've got to

1068
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 6: figure out how to make us all.

1069
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 3: One As leslie, SAID i went through thirteen attorneys throughout

1070
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 3: a twenty about a twenty three year. PERIOD i went

1071
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 3: through thirteen attorneys that never foul a habit's corpus or

1072
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 3: on my, behalf AND i strongly suggest the people to

1073
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 3: have legal representation before you encounter any type of situation

1074
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 3: that that is similar to mine or just like. Mine

1075
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 3: we have life, insurance we got home, insurance car, insurance

1076
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 3: and these. Insurance these insurances are something that we're paying

1077
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 3: for prior to us getting involved in an, accident or

1078
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 3: prior to us, dying or prior to us having something

1079
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 3: happened to our home or. Something SO i am A

1080
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,919
Speaker 3: Legal Shield. Associate you can pay a fee that will

1081
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 3: cover you and if you're getting involved in any type of,

1082
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 3: accidents be, covered having an attorney already on, standby then

1083
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 3: have access to your. Attorney twenty four to seven questions

1084
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 3: twenty four to, Seven i'm. COVERED i want you to be.

1085
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 3: Covered and It's Legal Shield associate dot com Slash JIMMY.

1086
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 3: C gardner and you can actually reach me and go

1087
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 3: on and sign up right now and be.

1088
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 5: Covered don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever

1089
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 5: you get your.

1090
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 4: Podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor.

1091
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 5: To The Innocence, project AND i really hope you'll join

1092
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 5: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to

1093
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 5: prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to

1094
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 5: learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to

1095
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 5: thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the

1096
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 5: music in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated

1097
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 5: Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram

1098
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 5: At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction. Podcast

1099
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 5: Wrongful conviction With Jason flamm is a production Of lava

1100
01:00:53,360 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 5: For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company number one