WEBVTT - What will Computer Implants do for our Brains? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.640 Guess what, Mango? What's up? Will do you remember back 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.040 in the episode where we asked will we ever live 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:07.920 without sleep? We talked about how sleep appears to be 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:12.720 this really critical component of our brain's memory consolidation. Right, yeah, definitely. Well, 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.320 I started thinking about some of those rat brain monitoring 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.760 studies again because I was reading about these two neuroscientists 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.239 at Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center in North Carolina. Their 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.360 names are Sam Deadweiler and Robert Hampson, and they've been 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.320 studying rat brains for a few decades now. But one 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.280 of their studies on what's going on in these tiny 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.159 rat naggins suggests some fascinating implications for the future of 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.040 adding technology to the human brain. How's that? Well, all right, 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.240 so let me set this up here. So, in a study, 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:42.120 they got two sets of rats that are trained to 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.919 run between two areas of their cage and on one 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.199 side of the cage, they learned to press these levers 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.920 at a certain sequence and that helps them get a reward. However, 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.400 over time, one set of these is trained to wait 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.840 for up to thirty seconds before they could press the 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.400 appropriate lever to get their reward. Now, the second set 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.920 didn't have a wait. But when the second set was 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.360 forced to experience a delay of their own, they were 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.559 completely thrown off and they forgot which lever they needed 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.520 to push. So here's where the crazy part comes in. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.280 The brain activity in the first set of rats. You know, 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:14.880 these are the ones that had to learn to wait. 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.640 They had been recorded, you know, once they'd learned the 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.319 lever to push, and then using electrodes dead Wilder and 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.680 Hampson stimulated this same series of brain activity for the 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.920 second set of rats, and this time they began behaving 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.040 as though they had been trained like the first set 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.160 of rats, and began choosing the right lever despite the 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.760 fact that they had not actually been trained to do this. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.679 That's insane. Yeah, It's as though they had memories and 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.080 planet of things they had not actually experienced. And this 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.759 got me thinking, you know, as this evolves, what will 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.040 it mean for humans? And how are scientists currently using 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.720 machines in the human brain? And what are our brains 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.720 capable of when computers are built in These are just 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.120 a few of the questions will be asking him today's episode. 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:15.919 So let's get started, hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.560 Part Time Genius I'm Will Pearson and as always I'm 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.920 joined by my good friend Man Guesh Ticketer and on 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.280 the other side of the soundproof glass, eating but apparently 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.520 not sharing a big old bag of Smarties as our 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:29.080 friend and producer Tristan McNeil. And that seems fitting because 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.160 in today's episode we're going to be talking about the 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:35.280 incredible advances and understanding the human brain, as well as 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.720 hacking the brain with technology so that we can treat 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.240 diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's as well as those who 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.080 have been affected by stroke, but also just to see 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.640 how much more the brain is capable of if given 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.960 some additional firepower. Yeah, I'm sure this is just the 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.080 first of a ton of episodes we'll do on the brain, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.160 but there's just something so fascinating about the research happening 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.240 right now, and so many things that once seemed like 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.840 science fiction that are now possible. So that's what we 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.400 decided to focus on. Yeah, and I'm so excited to 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.480 have a real superstar in this field on with us 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.720 in a bid. His name is John krak Our, and 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.120 he's a neuroscientist and neurologist at Johns Hopkins and he's 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.279 also the director of the Brain Learning, Animation and Movement Laboratory, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.800 also known as BLAMAM. The best aconem in the business, 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.800 and obviously he's so interesting. I can't wait to get 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.120 him on the line. But before we do, we need 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.000 to back up just a little and and talk about 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:28.800 how we got where we are in terms of the 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.120 technology being added to our neural systems. I mean, not 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.160 our specifically, but humans in general. Right right, Well, you know, 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.280 it's crazy to realize that two thousand seventeen marks sixty 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.040 years since the first human trials for cochlear implants. These 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.000 implants were designed with electrodes positioned in the inner ear 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.800 to transmit sound to the brain, and then in nineteen 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.600 sixty four, after those trials, the first cochlear implant was 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.920 tested in a human volunteer. This was a huge step 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.440 in helping us to see that electronic devices could be 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.560 built to take sense reinformation and you know, such as sound, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.280 to translate it into a language that the brain could 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.600 then process. So I really had no idea than that 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.000 long and and of course today they are much more 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.800 sophisticated cochlear implants helping tens of thousands of new patients 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.800 every year. Yeah, we should probably quickly note that there 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.960 are two general types of neural implants. First, you have 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.920 input devices, you know, like we described with cochlear implants. 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.200 These are the kind that takes sensory information from the 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.520 outside world and pass that along to our nervous system 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.080 via electrical signals. And then you have retinal implants, which 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.600 are also pretty amazing and they're another form of input device. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.120 And then you'll also find devices that are used to 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.560 help control seizures, you know from epilepsy or maybe tremors 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:46.200 caused by Parkinson's against signals brought in from the outside world. Sure, 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.159 and and the progress they're making on treating things like 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:52.680 Parkinson's through deep brain stimulation implants is incredible. So I 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.040 didn't realize that there have now been over a hundred 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.279 thousand people treated with these. And for our listeners when 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.160 Will and I were at Mental Floss, we have really 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.480 teamed up with National Geographic to help demystify brain surgery. 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.479 We did the show called Brain Surgery Live, where we 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.640 followed the story of this wonderful man who had been 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.600 suffering from Parkinson's tremors for over a decade and we 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.599 got to see how when surgeons inserted electrodes into the 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.559 patient's basil ganglia, which is this area of the brain 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.680 that's most affected by Parkinson's, and then when they stimulated 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.640 those electrodes with a battery, the patient's tremors stopped completely. 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.560 Like it was one of the most miraculous things I've 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.320 ever seen. This gentleman who couldn't easily hold a piece 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.640 of paper because he was shaking so much, suddenly had 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:36.360 these tremors turned off, and he had so much dexterity, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.560 Like he sent a message to his family from the 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.640 operating room on an iPad and it was just incredible. Yeah, 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.880 it definitely was. Alright, So so those are all examples 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.400 of input devices. So now let's talk about output devices, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.880 which have come along more recently. And you know, these 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.560 are the devices that take information in the opposite direction. 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.960 They read and record brain activity and then translate that 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.279 into signals for some outside use. You stay controlling a 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.120 prosthetic arm, for example. And I know this is much 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.960 more recent, but we're still talking to a couple of decades, right, Yeah, 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.040 I'm pretty sure it was. Which is the your most 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.760 people associate with the release of Mariah Carey and Boys, 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.120 Two Men's One Sweet Day. I mean, you remember what 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.440 a huge year that was because of that, But you know, 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.960 it was also the year that researchers first and planted 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.400 electrodes into the brain of a monkey and then helped 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.760 it use a prosthetic arm. And as we mentioned earlier 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.280 back in our will We Ever Live Without Sleep? Episode, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.080 we talked about how we've gotten so much better at 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.480 observing brain patterns and can actually see the same areas 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.080 of the brain light up as we run through those 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.560 memories again during sleep, and that helps us consolidate those 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.400 memories well in a similar kind of observation. When they 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.680 place electrodes on the motor cortex of these monkeys, they 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.800 can then observe spikes in the activity of certain neurons. 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.960 And as they observe these of the course of several studies, 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.839 they began to figure out what patterns of spikes corresponded 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.000 with certain our motions, and over time the researchers figure 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.680 about how to teach the monkeys to control a robotic arm, 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.360 you know, just using their brain signals. And of course 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.120 the next step was then to figure out how to 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.720 do this, you know, for people. Yeah, so I actually 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.040 read a good bit about this, especially as it related 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.920 to helping those dealing with paralysis, and I think the 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.160 first person to use a brain implant to both use 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.080 certain functions on a computer screen and to gain some 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.920 functionality from a prosthetic hand was this guy named Matthew 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.040 Nagle back in two thousand four. So he was paralyzed 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.280 from the neck down. So this was a big step, 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.480 and though with the brain being such a complicated organ, 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.400 there's clearly a long way to go. So researchers are 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.960 still working on ways to improve this technology, and as 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.200 of now, patients still have to be connected to a 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.320 computer for it to work. But it's still pretty remarkable 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.560 what's happened in efforts to help those fighting paralysis. Yeah, 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.640 we were talking about some of these yesterday, and I 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.280 actually think it would be helpful if you would just 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.720 walk us through some of the most recent progress in 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.160 this area. Sure, well, several things have happened in the 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.440 past year or two. On the communications front. We've placed 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.600 electrodes inside the brain of woman with a LS, allowing 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.720 her to communicate simply by using her thoughts. Basically, she 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.120 uses an eye tracker to spell words on a screen. 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.160 But at some point, like many people with a LS, 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.280 she may lose that ability as well. So she's participating 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.880 in this other study where they've implanted an electrode system 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.280 over the region of the brain that affects hand movement, 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.480 and after a bit of training, just by imagining moving 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.920 her hand, she was actually able to make selections on 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:28.040 a screen, And she's apparently gotten this down to accuracy, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.760 which is just unbelieved. I just have a hard time 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.120 wrapping my head around how this is even possible. Yeah, 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.840 it's really is amazing. So in recent years we've also 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.120 seen some major leaps in terms of motion and touch. 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.880 So last year, this partially paralyzed man was able to 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.280 pour liquid from a bottle, and even more impressively, he 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.560 was able to play guitar hero because they had an 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.360 electrode sleeve that was connected to the motor cortex in 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.400 his brain. And in another study, scientists helped this quadriplegic 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.720 man feel as though he was touching certain objects through 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.040 a robotic arm, like he could actually yield objects all 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.360 by tapping into a somatosensory cortex. I mean, I can 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.560 only imagine how strange and guessing overwhelming that was to 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.040 regain this sense of touch. Definitely, it all just seems 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.360 so unreal. And there's also this electrode cap that's actually 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.760 helped some paralyzed people begin walking again. It's a little 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.960 different than the others because the cap is connected to 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.199 this exoskeleton which is on the person's legs, and as 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.720 signals get sent from the cap to the exoskeleton, it 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.920 allows the legs to move, which is awesome. But there's 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.480 actually been some cases that paralyzed people learning to walk 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.360 without the exoskeleton in recent years. Like the cap sends 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.160 signals to electrodes implanted into the person's own legs, that's 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.160 so cool. A Alright, so we've talked about input devices 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.080 and output devices, and you might be wondering what the 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.360 next step in the evolution is, and it's something called 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:52.160 bidirectional interfaces, and these combined the input and the output 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.600 and they could be huge and helping those deal with 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.480 damaged nervous systems. So, well, let's say somebody had a 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.880 stroke and as a result of that, there are parts 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.800 of their nervous system that are not really communicating or 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.160 appropriately connected anymore. And so through the use of a 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.520 bidirectional implant, you might be able to re establish this 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.200 connection and give them the ability to use a body 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.000 part that had effectively been paralyzed due to the stroke. 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.360 But what's even more fascinating is that there's a developing 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.440 area that's still very very early days. So what's that. Well, 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.640 it involves playing with memories, and apparently we might be 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.080 able to restore memories by using an implant to replace 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.200 the input and output flow from the hippo campus. And 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.160 and this is the area of the brain that's responsible 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.880 for memory formation. Well, let's talk a little bit more 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.040 about memory and some of that research you mentioned at 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.200 the very top of the show. I mean, the idea 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.920 that scientists could basically transplant the memories of a bunch 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.600 of rats into a single rats brain and then watch 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.199 it behave as though it learned certain things through experience, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.200 even though it hadn't. I mean, that's just so crazy 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.079 to me and also just so hard to believe. And 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.920 that's pretty much what Deadweiler said about the science community's 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.400 response to his five findings at first. I mean, he said, 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.800 no one's going to believe this until I do a 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.560 hundred control experiments. But play this out for me a 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.480 little like what does all of this mean for people, Well, 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.720 there's obviously a long way to go to apply this 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.240 to the same type of neural and plant and humans, 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.760 but you know, the thinking is that something like this 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.480 could play a very real role in helping somebody with 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.520 Alzheimer's or someone who out of stroke, you know, get 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.440 some of their brain function back. I mean, the problem 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.920 of memory losses that it often results in damage in 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.640 the brain that prevents the flow of information between two locations. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:33.920 And so if you could essentially create a way to 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.040 bypass the damaged areas, you might be able to create 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.520 both new memories and hopefully regain the ability to access 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.360 old ones, which is a fascinating idea. Though obviously memories 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.640 this super complicated thing, right, I mean, while the hippocampus 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.040 is where long term memories are formed, you still have 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.199 to consider all these other areas of the brain that 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.520 are working together. And that's true, so it's it's a 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.840 very difficult task. But there are many researchers that believe 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:59.920 at some point it might be possible to put in 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.640 implant in the hippo campus and actually be able to 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.800 record memories as they come together. Of course, they then 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.040 have to figure out that you know, the neural signals 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.720 or the codes that are the indicators of certain memories. Yeah, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:13.160 and and of course no one's saying this will be 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.880 an easy task, but I was reading about some researchers 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:17.840 that are working to try and figure out how to 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.000 crack the code around certain memories and understand this has 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.080 to happen among the millions and millions of neurons firing. 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.320 But scientists like Theodore Burger at the University of Southern 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.200 California are actually making real progress towards this. Yeah. And 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.160 actually Burger was one of them that teamed up with 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.120 dead Wilder and Hampson on some of their rats studies, 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.160 so specifically in studies where they drugged rats to mimic 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.760 amnesia so they wouldn't be able to remember the whole 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.800 lever pushing thing. But then after using electrodes to stimulate 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.040 the same neural pattern, the rats were able to remember 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.600 what to do. Yeah. So, uh, I don't know about 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.079 roofy rats, but the potential applications of this are truly staggering. 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.559 But but I guess one question I have is whether 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.320 there's a neural code that applies to everyone, or whether 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.920 everyone's is different. That's a very good point that they're 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.200 still trying to figure out all the specifics of this. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.720 But I have to be honest, I can't wait to 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:09.600 get our guests on the line to get his thoughts 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.800 on some even more mind blowing possibilities of this brain 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:23.320 machine connection. Yeah, let's do it. So our guest today 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.960 is a neuroscientist and professor at Johns Hopkins. He's also 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.000 the founder and director of the Brain Learning, Animation and 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.319 Movement Laboratory or BLAM as mango and I love to say, 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.520 and his work in helping treat stroke patients is just 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.160 fascinating and we're thrilled to have him on today. John Krakauer, 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.360 welcome to part time Genius. Thank you. I certainly I'm 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.880 only a part time genius. So you're joining us from 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.280 a cafe in Lisbon, Portugal, Is that right? Yeah? I 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.120 mean Portugal. I spend a month and you know too, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.679 usually a month and a half every year. Yeah. So 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.959 that a visiting exhibition of a fantastic place. It's talking 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:09.400 about names. It's called the Shampolo mo Center for the Unknown. So, John, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.000 knowing that stroke is the leading cause of disability in 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.400 the US and often causes complete arm and or leg 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.320 paralysis and people. This is obviously very important work to 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.600 many many people. Yeah, but you've explained that one of 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.240 the things we failed to understand for so long was 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.200 just how critical it is to begin rehab as quickly 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.880 as possible. So can you talk a little bit about 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:35.120 this and the studies that led to this realization. Yeah, so, Um, 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.320 it's a it's a long story really. In other words, 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.920 Strokes has been really interesting to neurologists over a century, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:47.600 and they were very much interested in studying animals, particularly 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:53.960 primate non even primates sort of guests some of the 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:58.040 mechanisms of the deficit office Strokes. And it's ironic that 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.480 if you look at the very early study in the 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.200 early twentieth century, there was evidence that the animals had 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.960 the potential to get better early on after the lesions 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.160 were into and especially if you encourage them with training. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.920 So it was there in the early literature, um, and 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:22.360 then it's not clear that ever sort of got through 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.760 to the clinicians and the therapists, and a certain nihilism 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:34.800 and a certain pessimism seconds um, and the general impetus 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.720 was to try to make people better early but not 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.240 with very high doses or to help people cope with 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.280 what they had left. So, John, your team developed a 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:51.080 system of therapy. They're involved in exo skeleton, robotics, brain stimulation, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.960 and a game where you control a dolphin. Can Can 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.320 you tell us a little bit about the game you 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.120 developed and how things are going in you're testing well, 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.280 I should stay stay right from the beginning, it's been 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.400 a painful, low process. We are hoping to be able 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.880 to look at the data by the end of the year. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.760 I cannot tell you any results. I don't know that yet. 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:17.640 Um Now, in terms of why, it's actually a bit 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.720 of a bit of a story, the major answers, how 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.280 do you get people to make hundreds, if not thousands, 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.440 of continuous movements day in day out. In other words, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.760 the animal egg suggestive you needed thousands of movements of 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.920 titrated difficult movements. You know, you're not going to get 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.400 somebody to pick up a glass of water five hundred 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.960 times in a row. You're not going to get someone 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.280 to use in life and fork, you know, thousands of repetitions, 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.400 so it's not a trivial thing. How do you get 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.680 people into a context where they're going to be making 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:50.880 the kinds of movements you want them to use in 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.360 everyday life, but in a way you trick them into 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.840 making them in the under conditions. But there's so much 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.720 fun they don't realize they're practicing one. I mean, I 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.720 don't know if any of you've ever had the abilitation 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.159 for anything, you know, elbow surgery, shoulder surgery, and I have, 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.000 and it's so boring that I was a terrible patience. 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.600 I didn't even do the ten minutes quite a day 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.640 that I was meant to do. It was so dull. 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.560 Now imagine that in the conditions of strokes. So one 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.920 thing we know is having an illness, being brain damaged 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.240 business in it of itself an incentive to go to 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.680 the gym or the equivalent. So we had to find 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.240 a way to make people do stuff that was fun, 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.200 and we also wanted to do something that the movements 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.000 they made were general, they were useful for everyday life. 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:39.960 Because there's something, you know, the learning that's called the 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.879 curse of charte specificity. But if you practice task A, 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.479 you only get good at tak A, and it doesn't 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.879 make you any better at task B, two or D. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.640 And how do you guys, come up with a dolphin concept. Well, okay, 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.879 so there's a lot of data to show you if 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.080 you put wraps after brain injury into enriched environment and 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.240 as you put them in a little cage full of 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.320 ramps and spinning wheels and balls and friends, they do 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.480 much better even if you don't train them on the 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.199 top to test him on. So that was the final 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.120 sort of clue it needs to be in an emotional, immersive, 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:21.159 motivated environments. And then I met these remarkable to people 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:26.040 to meet Roy and o'barmage who were both graduate students, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.879 well they've both been undergrad and grad ad Hopkins and 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.360 they were doing beautiful gaming um where they were simulating 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.880 animal movements. And I had gone to the Hopkins campus 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:43.680 looking for young gamers and I found them, introduced to them, 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:45.879 and they showed me what they had done, and I 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.800 realized that I wanted to go a step further and 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:54.720 not to have people watch beautiful movement on a game, 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.000 but the to take the execlusive step of controlling it 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.120 if you became the character in the game. So basically 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:09.679 imagine gaming meats Pixar meets new controlling the characters using 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.080 into the idea that if you had a dolphin, which 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.280 is a beautiful animal that we love to watch moves. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.560 That's why we love dolph, which you love their acrobatics 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.240 and they love continuously in the water and there's no 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.280 stopping is starting. I mean you can be moving your 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.840 arms around continuously without starting and stopping because eused to 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.240 you stop moving your arm, the animal will continue to 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:37.080 move through the water. Bribesmen, So we thought that we 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:43.119 could make patients babble like children do, moving in this 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.720 cloud of everyday life. We'll tell us what else you 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.719 guys are focused on it blam right now. So you 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.480 can actually take somebody who's locked their hands through an 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.399 actiment soldier for example, so they can have just a 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:02.600 stump where their hand was and the using prospect for years. 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.800 And you can take the towns of someone who died 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:14.479 and basically reconnected to someone else's body, so you can 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:20.320 basically have someone else's hand. There are many many ways 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.440 that you could basically expand the the repertoires in the 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.840 movement by actually having more than just your hands. In 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.760 other words, the irony right on the one hand, you 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.199 want to use this app to training just to have 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:38.040 a hand like everybody else it is healthy people. You 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.600 could go beyond the hand. Yeah, that was one of 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.480 the things that Will and I were both fascinated by 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.080 in that article, the idea that we could almost like 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.359 upgrade our boring old hands. We don't know what the 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.600 upper limit times. What if you what if somebody was 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.960 to be born in eight homes? Because in the minute, 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:01.639 each of your muscle fibers might be the admit you 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.400 see many many, many many muffles make up your arm. 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.159 And we talk about just controlling, but you're actually controlling 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.000 much the d of your muscles in your heart. So 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.760 you can you start thinking the way I'm laying out now, 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:21.119 imagine what the range of its impacting, the words you 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.240 could have if you were to st combinatory slow in 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.240 that way. Yeah, it's so crazy to think where your 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:32.679 brain might max out. Yeah, instead of we could have 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:38.159 a New Yorker cartoon where the the conductor, instead of 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:43.080