WEBVTT - Am I in a Trauma Bond? (Cheryl Burke recap) 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.200 Hey, y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to Let's Red 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.840 Table that I'm Tracy t Row and I'm Cala Presley. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.920 How are you feeling about today's episode? Tracy, Okay, first 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.079 of all, let me say this, I learned what trauma 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:21.919 bonding is. I no, no, no. I brought my own narrative. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.960 I gave myself its definition of what I thought trauma 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:27.600 bonding was. And I'm sure they're probably some other people 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.200 who believe what I believe trauma bonding was. If you're 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.760 out there, I'll if you hear me. So I thought 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:38.960 trauma bonding was people that had experienced trauma, that had 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.519 similar traumas and they connected and went through healing and 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.000 bonded in that way. I didn't understand it to mean 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:51.040 that you were in your own trauma bonding experience. You 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.000 understand what I'm saying, M I do? I do? I do? 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.000 Like it's more I definitely realized in this episode it's 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.880 more of a subconscious thing that we are connected to 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.920 and or drawn to people who have familiar behaviors that 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.880 weren't as positive and or successful. So yeah, it's uh, 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.360 it was eye open, and I'll say that it really 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.280 was before we get into it, let's back up and 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.680 make sure we know what it is. Trauma bonding is 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.039 the connection an abused person feels towards their abuser and 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.800 develops out of a repeated cycle of abuse, devaluation, and 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:30.360 positive reinforcement. Healthline says leaving an abusive relationship isn't as 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:36.640 simple as walking out the door. So that right which 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.840 you know they say with domestic violence, with people that 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.160 have suffered from domestic violence, that they leave seven times 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.440 and go back before they are gone for good. I 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.240 believe it, you know. I just feel like any abusive 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.200 situation that when people here domestic violence of what have you, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.760 I think they all automatically think romantic, you know your partner. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.880 But I think it happened clearly. The season is showing 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.280 this is happening more and more. Parent child relationship, any 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:07.200 power dynamic, there's something many power dynamic people literally are 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.359 abusing their power out here. Bless my heart. I really 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.919 thought people were living the right way. Okay, well, speaking 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:14.200 of people not living in the the right way, I'm gonna 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:15.760 tell you who I'm sick of. Because this is a 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.960 common thread. Dr Romney, maybe we can get you one. 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.360 You can help us all these dog on narcissists. The 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.360 narcissists are literally the common denominator for a good number 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.880 of the things we've experienced. Am I right or wrong? 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:31.079 They're live in their best life out here. I mean, 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:36.040 I'm not sure if they're winning or not, but they're everywhere. 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:40.040 They're they're losers because they're winning. They're definitely losers. But 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.280 it's like, what is that that perspective that they are 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.919 drawn to, that they have chosen this life of narcissism. Well, 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.720 I can tell you that once I knew what the 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.240 definition was, I was like, oh, well, heck yeah, I 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.760 got trauma bond and which one do you want to 0:02:55.760 --> 0:03:02.160 talk about? The knee jerk for us is to start laughing, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.840 card like land to keep crying friends, all right and well? 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.280 And as we go through the episode, I had more 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.680 of a relation in the workplace than any romantic connection. 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.200 I just was thinking and listening like, oh yeah, oh yeah, 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.760 wait a minute, So that's gonna be interesting. I can't 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:21.080 wait to tap into it. Now it's time to share 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.720 with our online Red Table Talk community has to say 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.560 about this episode. So I can kick this off first, right, So, 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.320 Kristin Morrigan says, my goodness, that last couple got me. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.880 I came into my relationship exactly like Brianna. I had 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.400 major daddy issues and didn't understand why anyone would want 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.480 to be with me. So I tried my hardest to 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.480 run my now husband off, but he stayed the course 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.040 and together we worked through my issues. I got a 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.480 little choked up on this one. Another great episode. Well 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.160 thank you, Kristen. We appreciate that. I enjoyed it too. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:58.160 Gretchen Marie meg Guyer said, Wow, I took notes during 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.800 this episode for real, this one, I think a lot 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.880 of people can relate to. Gretchen. You are so absolutely right, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:06.120 because I want you to know you weren't the only 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.160 one taking notes. Our very own car was taking those 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.720 two weren't your car? Yes, I was notebook and all, 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:18.200 So I understand. Tracy Brooke Chapelle said this was so phenomenal. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.479 I saw myself and Justin and his wife tears just 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.520 rolling down my face as a serious truth hit me. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.520 Understand you, Tracy, great name, Tracy, and Kim Booie said 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.680 I was engaged four times before I finally married at 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.920 twenty nine. I was a mess in my teens and 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.160 early twenties. Can't even remember a lot of it, totally 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.359 blocked it out, but all rooted in my parents divorce 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.240 and the breakup of our family. Glad I put in 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.839 the work, made the change and found someone who helped 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.279 me get to the other side. Been married for thirty 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.599 one years now and enjoying the best years of my life. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:01.400 Oh that's nice, Kim, so good. One of We're gonna 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.440 take a quick break, but when we get back, we'll 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:09.280 be joined by one incredible guest from our Red Tabletop community. 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.360 We're bringing a fellow RTT community member to the Virtual 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.920 Red Table. Ingrid Clayton is a psychologist and author who 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.839 comes at her work with a deeper level of understanding, 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.159 and she is a trauma survivor herself, growing up with 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.800 the narcissistic stepdad. Ingrid has worked to break the bonds 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.440 of trauma in her life and support her patients in 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.360 doing the same. Ingrid, thank you for coming on Let's 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.320 Red Table Dad. How are you. I'm well, Thank you 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.200 so much for having me, so much for joining, so 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.000 excited for you to be here. Yes, Ingered, I have 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.599 lots and lots of questions. I mean, I'm first off, 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.240 you want to start out by saying that we're grateful 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:50.919 you're here and we're gonna learn a lot. And we 0:05:51.040 --> 0:06:00.120 have a segment that we love. This is a out 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.640 of the show where we reveal which moments made us pause, rewind, 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:08.400 and listen again. We call it Wait, What So White? 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.320 There were lots of white woods in this episode, Like 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.080 several in this episode. One of the first ones, Dr 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.760 Alfie said, you know how they used to say to 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.400 W know was Ben, W don't know. But it's still 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.800 the devil, right, But it's the devil that both of 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.200 you are familiar with. Do you find yourself drawn to 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.679 what you know even if it's bad for you? Well, 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.760 if you're asking me personally, I'm sad to say the 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.680 answer is yes. And in fact, this is why I'm 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:43.000 so passionate about sharing my personal experience, because I never 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:48.240 understood that even though I thought I knew better growing 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:53.520 up in a narcissistic family system and addicted family system, dysfunctional, toxic, 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.440 however you want to label at family system, I knew 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.840 very young. I did not want this for the rest 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.440 of my life. I wanted to do it differently, and 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.880 I saught so much help and guidance and support to 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:11.120 attempt to do it differently. I have three degrees in psychology, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.240 I've sat on a million therapy couches, I've been sober 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:20.160 for twenty seven years, and none of this information gave 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:25.920 me the release from what my nervous system learned as 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.920 a child growing up in this home. And so I've 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.640 really come to understand it that we almost have two 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.000 distinct parts of ourselves. There's the conscious rational mind that 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.920 can intellectually understand, of course I want to be in 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:45.080 a healthy relationship. And then there's what I learned in 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:51.680 my body through these very subtle, subconscious experiences about oh no, 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:53.840 this is what I have to do to be safe, 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.920 this is what I have to do to maintain connection, 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.320 this is what I have to do to have a voice. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:05.240 And this experience is what ultimately led me to my 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:14.760 chemistry of being attracted to unavailable, narcissistic, actively addictive partners 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.239 over and over again, even though I was working so 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:22.680 hard to try to do it differently. So this idea 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.520 of the way that I've heard it is red flags 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.600 don't look like red flags when they feel like home. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.240 Hold on, now, that's red flags and look like red 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.280 flags when they feel like home. So I didn't know 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.600 that it was the devil, because the devil to me, listen, 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.400 I learned how to survive in the face of these 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.680 sort of be devilments. That's I can handle that, no worries. 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.040 I can do that. Jada said it somewhere in the episode. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.920 She's Oh, I can fix it. I can. It was 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:01.920 deeply compelling to me because it was so familiar, and 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.320 so I really had to learn that that crazy kind 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.960 of chemistry that felt like, oh, there's so much potential 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:17.960 here was not healthy chemistry. And in fact, my now marriage, that, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.240 thank goodness, the longest healthiest relationship I've ever had, felt 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:28.400 night and day different entering into it than every relationship 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.439 that I had before. That's really something. What you're gravitating 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.240 to is what feels familiar, Right, it feels like home. Yeah, 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.360 it feels like home. It's not necessarily that it's a 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.800 red flag. It's home. It may be red flags for 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.040 everybody else, but what I see it's home. Do you 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.920 find that you're conscious of the decisions you make out 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.280 of trauma in the moment, where do you look back 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.800 later and see it clearly it's more of a hindsight, 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.200 especially in the beginning as you start to heal your trauma. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.839 So I think, for me, this is I talked about 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.400 my experiences in the lens of trauma at all because 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.760 it finally allowed me to make sense to myself. Right. So, 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.040 if I was going to all these therapists and going 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.000 what do I keep getting in these relationships? I can't 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.160 figure it out. The thing that finally helped me was 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:23.240 to understand, first of all, the body will always prioritize safety, okay, 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.680 And we have these trauma responses that are in effort 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.880 to keep us safe, to help us survive, to maintain connection, 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:36.600 even if it's not great connection. They are fight, flight, freeze, 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.040 and fawn. And this last one here, fawning is not 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.440 only my experience, but it's what Jada talked about and 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.040 the eye can fix it. It's what Shay talked about 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:52.479 in her people pleasing tendencies. So the fawning trauma response 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.880 is when we abandon ourselves in order to show up 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.280 for someone else. It's the heartbeat of codependency. Is what 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.080 fawning is. When I fawn, it's in service of I'm 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.760 going to abandon myself and show up for you. And 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.520 then you're gonna show up for me to write I'm 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.040 gonna fix your stuff, I'm going to help you along. 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.720 I'm gonna smile when you need me to smile. But 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.720 eventually that's gonna come full circle, isn't it? And unfortunately 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.600 it often does not. And where we lay prosody there, 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.760 that's right, And so where we end up is just 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:31.600 abandoning ourselves and staying abandoned. When you say we're abandoning ourselves, 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.560 is it's the exhaustion of it, like just subconsciously, like 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.800 I don't think I can fight this any longer. What 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.200 I mean when you say people abandon themselves, Like in 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.720 my spirit, I believe that no one wants to really 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.280 just abandon them I feel like they're doing all they 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.960 can and they're gonna do all they can for someone else. 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.120 But when you say they are, we know that the 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.680 actor now is abandoning themselves. But I think in the 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.840 moment it's like exhaustion. I think it shows up. It 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:02.000 may be depression, it may be the whole entire experience 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.160 has spiraled them into a sense of I gotta just 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.640 let go. I've done. This is such a smart point 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.520 that you're making and so Pete Walker is the trauma 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.600 therapist to coin the term fawning, and what he says 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.480 is that fawning is the last house on the block. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.760 In other words, when you've tried to fight response, the 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:28.160 freeze and flight response and you have found them not 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.920 to work in these toxic relationships, fawning is the last town. No. 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.960 Nobody wants to abandon themselves. Nobody wants to say I 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.520 don't matter. I'm going to privilege you because I don't 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.160 really want to have any self worth. Right. Trauma responses 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.520 are not conscious. These are based on our instincts. Okay, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.640 so when you think about an animal surviving in the wild, 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.520 they don't think do I want to play dead when 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.360 this other animal comes to attack? Do I want to 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.520 fight back and growl up? They just do it. These 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:05.360 are instincts. We have the same instincts. They're not conscious. 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.080 And again that also allows me to have self compassion, 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.800 because who would want to abandon themselves. It's so painful 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.920 to have to look at how many times I personally 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.520 did that, And a part of healing is going back 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:26.160 and grieving everything that I lost every time I couldn't 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.079 have a real voice or participate fully in relationship. What 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.640 you just said there too about grieving is important because 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:34.800 if you don't see it as a loss, and you 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.680 see it's possibly still something I can fight for, something 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.600 that's worth it, then you don't even get to grieve, 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.480 to let go, to move on. You're still grieving in 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.959 real time and hurt. You're just hurt. You can't even 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.439 allow it to be a grief. Like a part of 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.360 grief is the acceptance that it's over and done and 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.280 I can't do a thing about it, you know, and 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:55.840 you hate to say. It's a little bit easier when 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.880 it's a person that's passed right right grieving people that 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:03.200 are still alive. And that's why breaking these trauma bonds, 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.880 it's one aspect of why breaking the trauma bond is 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.440 so hard, because we also want to have hope. We 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:11.920 want to believe that this person is going to come 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.600 around and they're gonna show up and take responsibility and 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:17.720 do right by themselves and do right by me. And 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.920 who doesn't want to have that sort of hope and 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.960 belief in humanity? And we have to look at the 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.000 writing on the wall and that all the hope and 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.880 belief in the world is never going to change another person. 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.200 So if they are not exhibiting true behaviors, not talking 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.160 to talk, I'm talking about walking the walk, then I 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.320 think someone really has to look at maybe it's time 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.200 to grieve this relationship and stop investing more of myself 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:54.000 in it. Okay, So, Ingra we've been talking about trauma bonding. 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.280 We gave a quick definition of what trauma bonding is 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.880 in the beginning of this episode, but Angry, can you 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.600 explain more thorough the what exactly trauma bonding is. So 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.360 trauma bonding, it does often get confused with this idea 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.200 of two people that have trauma that are coming together 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.160 and sort of bonding over that shared experience. I think 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.320 that's often how it's talked about. But what we're talking 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:21.880 about in the literature of trauma is it's a hormonal, 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:28.360 chemical attachment between two people that is based on alternate 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.480 experiences of either abuse and neglect, sprinkled in with some 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.640 normal behavior some what seems like healthy attachment or even love. 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.640 And so there are two building blocks to trauma bonding. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:48.160 One is intermittent reinforcement, which is the receiving or giving 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.200 of a reward rather at inconsistent intervals. Basically, this is 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.000 Las Vegas, Okay, intermittent reinforcement. I'm gonna sit down to 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.240 the slot machine. I know I'm gonna lose most of 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.400 the time, but I'm pulling at lever because i want 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.800 the big payout. Right, It's worth it to me to 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.560 keep throwing my money in because I'm like, there's a chance. Right. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.880 That's basically intermittent reinforcement. The second building block is a 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.280 power differential. Okay, So when we see it in apparent 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:22.640 child relationship, through employment, through financial situations, all kinds of things. 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:27.120 So here's the thing that makes trauma bonding really tricky, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:32.520 I think is that when we are abused or neglected, 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.840 we are chemically wired Okay, our entire body. The mission 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.720 again is about survival, So we are wired to focus 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.000 on getting to the other side. Right. We want to 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.239 be saved, we want to be free. And when the abuser, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.760 the person that's neglecting you or unavailable, when they are 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:56.960 the person that brings you relief, the brain now associates 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.160 them with safety. Here's what I'm understanding. Yeah, I had 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.160 to jump in here because based on what you just said, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.520 every single dog own body that's bleeping has had some 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.879 type of trauma bonding. I mean, and maybe not at 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.560 an instagred bible. On some spectrum, all of us have 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.240 had some measure of trauma bonding. Because what I understand 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.800 you saying is, even if the person doesn't know that 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:29.439 they're inflicting trauma, you could be traumatized by them, and 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:31.960 it could still be the very person that could either 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.359 do one of the two building clocks, that is, to 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.320 be the person that gives you the reward or the 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.080 person that is the power. This start this started to school. 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.960 I'm just listen. I'm listening like this started to school. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.000 One too plus to is pick me and pick me, 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.159 pick me, like the too plus to is four for me, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.400 Like I know that I enjoyed the attention of school 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.120 and getting things right and it was a stellar student, right, 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.479 So then when that started falling off, Hello middle school, 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.679 it's going on here, you know what. But it translated 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.120 into different ways for me, including like work. So when 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.080 you said workplace, if you're dealing with a terrible manager 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.840 and you and all your coworkers are all, that's a bond, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.000 not romantically. I think we often see it, and of 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.040 course we're talking about romantic settings in this conversation here, 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.280 but I can see that in the workplace. Yeah, it's 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.920 definitely not just romantic relationships, right like the building box 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.600 for mine were with my stepfather and then my mother. 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.320 And so if we look at how the brain latches 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.800 onto the positive experience right about, oh, I've been chosen, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.280 I've raised my hand and now I'm the favorite student 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.560 or whatever it is. Once we're chosen, the brain does 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.600 not hold onto this long term experience of every single 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.199 time that you weren't chosen. Okay. It turns off the 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.600 part of the brain that can think long term. And 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.760 this is what creates the feeling that we need the 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:55.800 abuser to survive. It's why leaving trauma bonds are so hard. 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.040 It's why so many people go, why didn't you just leave? Right? 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:04.680 They don't under stand what's happening in these deep dynamics 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.840 in terms of a really hormonal connection. And so if 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.880 you look at this intermittent reinforcement and go, okay, so 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.440 the brain is only latching onto the part where, oh, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.600 thank goodness, we're back. We're good, right, I'm feeling good again, 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.399 the relationship is good, and you're looking at these power 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:27.640 dynamics where oftentimes someone's self esteem is so whittled away, right, 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.720 so their sense of themselves has become so small that 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.639 they genuinely do think that they need the other person 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.760 in order to survive. It feels like annihilation to leave 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:45.080 these relationships. It is bigger than devastation. Yeah, my life, 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:49.800 My life, that's a common phrase. That's a common phrase 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.919 I hear, whether they're leaving a job or relationship. Have 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.320 you never heard someone said even no mind, it's probably 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.040 in a moment of just exacerbated exhaustion, but my life 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:08.280 is over. What am I going to do? We talked 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.159 a little bit about Cheryl's story, but now we do 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.760 want to really hear from you, Ingrid. How did your 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.800 stepdad as narcissism affect your life and cause you trauma specifically? 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.760 First of all, the building blocks for trauma bonding are 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.840 right there when you have a narcissist, because narcissists intuitively 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:29.400 know how to exploit this intermittent reinforcement right there, just 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.520 masters at giving you just enough and then ripping it 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:39.119 all away. So for me, I would be given the 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:43.240 silent treatment in my own home for weeks, sometimes months 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.119 at a time by him, where I'd come out to 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.920 breakfast and my brothers exist, Oh, good morning, and how 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.520 are you? And it was literally like I I didn't 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.800 exist in my own home where the brothers, the sons 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.200 of his or you all stepped there. He was stepped 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.879 down to all of you. One was my iological brother, 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.399 one was his son, my stepbrother. But he only ignored you. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.199 He only ignored me. So I was the scapegoat child. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.720 And what I now know, which is what I finally 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:15.040 pieced together only very late in life, unfortunately, is that 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.160 my experience with my stepdad was one that he had 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.760 created many times before me in terms of grooming a 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:26.040 young girl in the hope of really for me being 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.400 he was grooming me to be his girlfriend. And so 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.840 in order to try and achieve that, he was engaging 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.359 in these trauma bonding techniques. Again not consciously, I don't know, 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.680 and had that language back then anyway, But he would 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:45.639 ignore me, ground me, steep punishments for the tiniest little things. 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.520 And then one day he'd say, Hey, there's a new 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.640 restaurant in town, and you love Italian food. I'd love 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.720 to pick you up from school and take you to lunch, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:56.879 and then we'd go to lunch, and he'd say, you 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.840 know what, there's this jewelry store across the street, and 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:02.639 I have to do some business there. Why don't you 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.000 accompany me? And suddenly I'm walking out with this ring 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.920 that I've been coveting in the window. Right. So it's 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:14.919 these types of highs and lows that contribute to this 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.560 trauma bonding. How did you get to the point where 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.960 you learned about his kind of pattern behavior with grooming 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:26.000 and bread from me and really pedophilic behavior. Yeah, well, 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.320 so there's two things. There's the story that I've always known, 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.560 which was just my experience as I understood it at 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.400 the time, and the experience I shared on every therapist 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.640 couch that I ever went to. But two things never 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.520 happened in my journey. No one ever named narcissism or 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.520 narcissistic abuse, and no one ever named trauma. And so 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.240 it was about five years ago when my stepdad died 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:55.240 and I was suddenly called to do this writing and 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.280 I wasn't even sure what I was writing, but it 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:59.560 was stories from my own life. You know, I'll just 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.639 make a long story short that I ended up for 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:08.840 five years writing these experiences. What happened what they did 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:13.359 to me, the trauma responses. And it was only then 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:17.400 that I could see my own story through the lens 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:21.600 of trauma as a trauma therapist, and finally give myself 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.479 proper names and diagnoses for these things that I had 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.119 been living with my whole life, and I didn't know, 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:39.639 and you didn't know. Cheryl said that she was just 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:44.280 not attracted to kind men. I just was not attracted 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:46.600 to the nice guy. I'll never forget my very first 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:52.440 competitive dance partner, so sweet. I was so disgusted by 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.399 how sweet he was. And I was only attracted to 0:23:55.560 --> 0:24:01.400 chauvinistic man. This is because as the relationship she experience, 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:04.680 we're unhealthy. That's right, angry. Have you found yourself re 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:08.399 enacting your own trauma, whether in relationships or other ways. 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.600 I re enacted it so many times. I lost count. 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:14.680 I re enacted it so many times it makes me 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:18.679 emotional to think about it. Even now. I genuinely thought 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:23.040 I was broken. I thought there must be something so 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:28.000 deeply wrong with me because I cannot get into a 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.040 healthy relationship to save my life. When Cheryl talked about 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:37.719 the kind person, I understand that so completely available kind people. 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.800 It was a little repulsive, and I also thought, if 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.159