WEBVTT - Camouflage Bias: Part 2 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.156 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake Today. We're continuing with the Ronnie 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:26.636 Kiskio story. This is part two, so if you haven't 0:00:26.636 --> 0:00:29.116 listened to part one yet, you should definitely go back 0:00:29.396 --> 0:00:34.676 and do that now. So last episode we ended with 0:00:34.836 --> 0:00:38.036 Ronnie getting some good news or what seemed like it. Anyhow, 0:00:38.636 --> 0:00:41.676 the court basically told him, we think your sentence of 0:00:41.756 --> 0:00:45.116 two hundred to six hundred years may have violated a 0:00:45.196 --> 0:00:48.996 clause in the Illinois Constitution. That clause, by the way, 0:00:49.156 --> 0:00:53.636 says quote, all penalties shall be determined both according to 0:00:53.676 --> 0:00:56.636 the seriousness of the offense and with the objective of 0:00:56.676 --> 0:01:02.916 restoring the offender to useful citizenship. Bottom line, Ronnie could 0:01:02.916 --> 0:01:07.436 now be resentenced. Well maybe. Last June there was yet 0:01:07.516 --> 0:01:10.476 another hearing to figure this all out. He took days. 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:14.356 Ronnie's lawyer, Michael Deutsch, brought in over a dozen witnesses 0:01:14.396 --> 0:01:18.556 to testify about who Ronnie was and is now, about 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:20.636 the type of man that Ronnie has become in prison. 0:01:21.156 --> 0:01:24.156 One of those witnesses was Ali Pruitt, a lawyer and 0:01:24.276 --> 0:01:28.036 Chicago activist. She talked about Ronnie and the people he'd 0:01:28.076 --> 0:01:31.436 mentored or inspired. What really has stuck out to me 0:01:31.516 --> 0:01:34.476 over the years is the positive impact he's left I 0:01:34.636 --> 0:01:38.316 not only folks who have been incarcerated, but folks who haven't. 0:01:38.996 --> 0:01:44.276 He has this sort of positive influence and inspiring story, 0:01:44.316 --> 0:01:46.796 and it's just such a motivator for so many people, 0:01:46.836 --> 0:01:50.876 for his family, for his friends. The State of Illinois 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:54.916 had lawyers there arguing the other side, it's always difficult 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:57.996 in a post conviction proceeding to take what we know 0:01:58.156 --> 0:02:02.236 today and apply it to a trial proceeding that happened 0:02:02.756 --> 0:02:07.156 years and in this case, decades ago. The circumstances of 0:02:07.196 --> 0:02:10.076 the crime, the facts of the under lying crime, those 0:02:10.116 --> 0:02:12.596 have all been litigated, and its council said, we're not 0:02:12.636 --> 0:02:16.276 here to relitigate the facts of the case. Basically, the 0:02:16.356 --> 0:02:19.356 state was saying, look, we're not here for a new trial. 0:02:19.836 --> 0:02:24.996 We're only here to determine if Ronnie Kariskio should be resentenced. Now, 0:02:25.316 --> 0:02:28.676 Ronnie claimed that his sentence was unfair and disproportionate to 0:02:28.716 --> 0:02:32.516 his crime. But the state then argues, what really matters 0:02:32.556 --> 0:02:35.116 here is that Ronnie has a shot at release, and 0:02:35.196 --> 0:02:39.156 as long as he does well, then the sentence is fair. 0:02:39.916 --> 0:02:42.116 And that is key to the decision and the key 0:02:42.156 --> 0:02:47.796 to the analysis here because mister Karasko is eligible for parole. 0:02:48.476 --> 0:02:51.556 In other words, perhaps six hundred years sounds like a 0:02:51.596 --> 0:02:55.556 long time, but he's eligible for parole. So what's the problem. 0:02:56.156 --> 0:03:00.436 And the judge basically agrees. What does this mean for Ronnie? Well, 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:02.596 it means that he now has to place all of 0:03:02.596 --> 0:03:07.316 his hopes on getting parole. There's just one problem when 0:03:07.356 --> 0:03:10.116 it comes to the parole boards. Seems that he can't 0:03:10.276 --> 0:03:14.076 escape the notoriety of his own story. Ronnie's been in 0:03:14.116 --> 0:03:17.876 prison for nearly half a century and he's stuck in 0:03:17.956 --> 0:03:21.756 a convoluted legal system, a system that perhaps could be 0:03:21.836 --> 0:03:25.156 gamed by an operator like Bob Cooley, but which was 0:03:25.396 --> 0:03:28.676 terrifying to a guy like Ronnie who was trapped inside 0:03:29.036 --> 0:03:32.436 with no fixer to call. And I gotta tell you, 0:03:32.836 --> 0:03:35.716 at times, Ronnie's story felt a bit like a Franz 0:03:35.796 --> 0:03:39.436 Kafka novel. There's a guy and he's stuck trying to 0:03:39.476 --> 0:03:42.436 find his way out of one darkened labyrinth after another, 0:03:43.036 --> 0:03:45.676 and every time it looks like there might be an exit, 0:03:46.596 --> 0:04:13.916 the lights flicker out. I'm Jake Halpern and this is 0:04:13.996 --> 0:04:49.596 deep cover mob Land. Thank you for using Securist. You 0:04:49.636 --> 0:04:53.796 may start the conversation. Now this morning, Hey Ronnie, how 0:04:53.836 --> 0:04:58.396 are you well? It will go again. Ronnie's been incarcerated 0:04:58.436 --> 0:05:02.396 since October of nineteen seventy six. Back then, Ronnie was 0:05:02.436 --> 0:05:05.716 a teenager and a gang member. One night, he got 0:05:05.716 --> 0:05:08.076 involved in a fight. He says he shot off the 0:05:08.116 --> 0:05:11.636 gun to break things up and accidentally killed an off 0:05:11.676 --> 0:05:16.876 duty policeman, a man named Terence Loftis. Ronnie was sentenced 0:05:16.876 --> 0:05:20.196 to two hundred to six hundred years in prison, and 0:05:20.436 --> 0:05:23.756 afterwards he was sort of stunned. He says. It took 0:05:23.796 --> 0:05:26.596 him years to realize what the sentence would really mean 0:05:26.676 --> 0:05:32.196 for him and realize. He filed some early appeals that 0:05:32.276 --> 0:05:37.436 went well, nowhere, that's my father. Don't buy no more appeals. 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:39.636 I'll buy no more lawyers. I go to the provok 0:05:39.676 --> 0:05:41.716 I'm gonna see it and I shot this type from 0:05:41.716 --> 0:05:45.676 far away. There's no attention in it, and I'll make parole. Parole. 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:49.876 That was Ronnie's big hope. Yeah. Sure, maybe he'd gotten 0:05:49.916 --> 0:05:53.636 slammed on his sentencing, but with good behavior, he hoped 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:56.596 he'd get out on parole. So he gradually turned his 0:05:56.596 --> 0:06:00.156 life around in prison. He renounced his gang membership. He 0:06:00.236 --> 0:06:03.836 learned a number of trades got his geed, found religion, 0:06:04.076 --> 0:06:07.396 became a mentor, he says, in so many ways, he 0:06:07.436 --> 0:06:10.636 became a different person. And he figured the parole board 0:06:10.756 --> 0:06:13.676 would see this, that they'd review the facts of his 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:17.396 case and release him. How many times have you been 0:06:17.436 --> 0:06:21.596 before a parole board? I think thirty five times. At 0:06:21.676 --> 0:06:25.836 least thirty five times. Over thirty times Ronnie's gone before 0:06:25.836 --> 0:06:29.036 the parole board. That's almost once a year. It's kind 0:06:29.036 --> 0:06:31.836 of like going to the Super Bowl annually and losing 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:37.116 every single time. Ronnie just keeps getting told Nope, you're 0:06:37.116 --> 0:06:40.316 not getting out. Even so each year or so, when 0:06:40.436 --> 0:06:44.236 Ronnie comes up for parole, he keeps trying, keeps providing 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:48.236 evidence of his rehabilitation, and talks about how far he's come. 0:06:49.116 --> 0:06:52.196 My life is transform so much from what I came 0:06:52.236 --> 0:06:54.996 as a youth. I was a poor student. I was 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:58.436 not help right educational wise, book wise, not that I 0:06:58.596 --> 0:07:01.436 got my gez started going to college a half sixty 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:05.916 seven different trades while behind bars, He's worked as an electrician, 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:10.116 a welder, a locksmith, a pipe bend and a washer 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:13.716 dryer repairman. He's also trained to become a typist and 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:17.436 a paralegal. He's mentored fellow inmates, given them legal advice. 0:07:17.916 --> 0:07:21.516 He's coached the prisons baseball team and organized soccer tournaments 0:07:21.516 --> 0:07:24.476 for his jailmates. He's a pastor, and he's even written 0:07:24.476 --> 0:07:29.276 a Bible study workbook called Covenant with Abraham. Ronnie is 0:07:29.316 --> 0:07:32.556 not allowed to attend parole hearings in person, but his 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:35.956 supporters are and they do. They show up and vouch 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:40.516 for him. All different kinds, black, white, Latin, whatever, races, 0:07:40.516 --> 0:07:43.356 different ex gang members, different and all of them write 0:07:43.436 --> 0:07:46.036 letters that I impacted their life. And I've been coaching 0:07:46.076 --> 0:07:48.236 them in Christianity for long to say, oh you'll live 0:07:48.236 --> 0:07:50.236 your life, will help your modi, health, your family, and 0:07:50.276 --> 0:07:53.196 there's all I do for my whole forty six years. 0:07:53.716 --> 0:07:56.836 Over the years, Ronnie has won over a number of supporters, 0:07:57.076 --> 0:08:01.516 including religious leaders, an Alderman, a US congressman, even one 0:08:01.516 --> 0:08:04.356 of the prosecutors who originally brought the case against him. 0:08:04.956 --> 0:08:08.996 That prosecutor, Thomas Breen, noted that Ronnie's years of men 0:08:09.516 --> 0:08:12.636 showed him to be a model for other inmates. Breen 0:08:12.716 --> 0:08:15.076 went so far as to compare Ronnie to the police 0:08:15.116 --> 0:08:18.836 officer he killed. He said that Ronnie had quote many 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:23.116 of the generous characteristics of a caring person, not unlike 0:08:23.356 --> 0:08:28.116 Terry Loftus. Members of the media have also written about 0:08:28.156 --> 0:08:32.476 Ronnie's story, tracking his bid for freedom. All of this 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:35.676 seems like it might tip the scales in Ronnie's favor, right, 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:40.636 the only problem being the parole board itself. It's known 0:08:40.636 --> 0:08:44.356 in Illinois as the Prisoner Review Board. Now in theory, 0:08:44.636 --> 0:08:47.756 it's a neutral body that can reach its own independent verdict. 0:08:48.236 --> 0:08:51.556 Its members are appointed by the governor. Its ranks include 0:08:51.596 --> 0:08:57.036 former parole officers, prosecutors, social workers, cops, and politicians. The 0:08:57.116 --> 0:09:00.956 board operates with virtually no oversight, and its decisions are 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:05.356 not reviewable in court. Jorge Montez sat on that parole 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:10.876 board for sixteen years. I was law and order and 0:09:11.156 --> 0:09:15.636 conservative Republican, and I was going to do what all 0:09:15.876 --> 0:09:18.876 conservative people should do, is keep them all in and 0:09:19.396 --> 0:09:22.076 not let anybody out. That's what I set out to do. 0:09:22.516 --> 0:09:25.876 Jorge was a former prosecutor, and he was tough. He 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:29.796 wasn't inclined to let many guys out. And then one 0:09:29.876 --> 0:09:33.836 day this one inmate comes up for parole. Jorge says, 0:09:33.876 --> 0:09:36.596 this inmate had a very strong case for being released, 0:09:37.156 --> 0:09:40.636 but Korge still voted no. He said, he did it 0:09:40.836 --> 0:09:44.196 almost automatically, like that's just what he was supposed to do. 0:09:44.996 --> 0:09:49.916 And then something kind of odd happened. The very conservative 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:53.876 Republican chairman told me, mister Montez, is there something we're 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:57.876 missing here? I said, well, why would that be. You're 0:09:58.036 --> 0:10:00.716 voting to deny parole for what appears to be a 0:10:00.716 --> 0:10:04.676 pretty perfect candidate for a parole. I said, in that case, 0:10:04.796 --> 0:10:07.276 I withdraw my emotion and I would move that we 0:10:07.476 --> 0:10:10.596 parole them, and we did. It was almost like on 0:10:10.596 --> 0:10:14.476 some level, Jorge was looking for permission to show leniency, 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:19.076 to say, you know what, Yeah, this guy does deserve 0:10:19.076 --> 0:10:22.076 a second chance. Let him out. And that started my 0:10:22.156 --> 0:10:27.916 journey on these issues. So increasingly I began to scrutinize cases, 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:31.916 to really consider whether there's somebody had changed their lives 0:10:32.476 --> 0:10:38.076 and that warranted a second look, a second chance. And 0:10:38.476 --> 0:10:40.756 increasingly I began to find that a lot of these 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:45.316 people were really redeemable, and my votes started to reflect that. 0:10:46.116 --> 0:10:49.396 All of that being said, when Jorge first heard Ronnie's 0:10:49.436 --> 0:10:53.156 case for parole, he says he wasn't persuaded, not at 0:10:53.156 --> 0:10:56.916 first anyhow, especially given the fact that Ronnie had killed 0:10:56.916 --> 0:11:00.476 a police officer. Jorge says that he voted against Ronnie 0:11:00.516 --> 0:11:03.996 a few times. At these hearings, the inmates are not 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:07.636 allowed to show up and speak for themselves. Instead, one 0:11:07.676 --> 0:11:10.556 member of the parole board speaks with the inmate and 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:14.636 then presents their case, almost like a lawyer, but not really, 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:17.996 because the presenters they may have their own agenda and 0:11:18.076 --> 0:11:21.276 they might not advocate for that inmate at all. So 0:11:21.396 --> 0:11:23.596 maybe you're starting to get what I'm talking about when 0:11:23.636 --> 0:11:27.356 I say this whole process at times feels like something 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:32.356 that Franz Kafka cooked up. Anyway, one day, Ronnie is 0:11:32.436 --> 0:11:36.036 up for parole yet again, Jorge, I'm still not convinced 0:11:36.076 --> 0:11:39.116 that Ronnie should be set free. And on this occasion, 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:43.716 Ronnie's presenter is well, I'll just let Jorge explain. There 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:47.276 was a gentleman on the board named Dick Doria, and 0:11:47.396 --> 0:11:51.596 Dick Doria was a sheriff of Tuopage County formerly the sheriff, 0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:57.116 a hard conserve, ultra conservative. So bad news for Ronnie. Right, 0:11:57.716 --> 0:12:02.276 But wait, because Dick Doria, the conservative former sheriff, when 0:12:02.316 --> 0:12:06.116 he made his presentation, he said something that really surprised 0:12:06.196 --> 0:12:11.196 Jorge and Dick said than it was impossible, in his 0:12:11.316 --> 0:12:17.836 professional opinion, that Ronnie would have killed this officer purposefully intentionally. 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:21.836 Impossible the kind of weapon he used. And mister Doria 0:12:21.956 --> 0:12:26.236 knew all about ballistics and weapons and calibers, and he 0:12:26.356 --> 0:12:29.676 made a wonderful presentation. He said, I'm not well, I'm 0:12:29.756 --> 0:12:32.636 voting to release this man because I think he did 0:12:32.676 --> 0:12:37.516 not intentionally kill the police officer. According to Jorge, Dictoria 0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:40.476 said that he looked at the evidence, the distances, the 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:43.996 ballistics and the like, and determined it did not up. 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:47.916 It didn't make sense that Ronnie had killed this cop intentionally, 0:12:49.436 --> 0:12:53.596 and this really got Jorge thinking critically about Ronnie's whole case, 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:57.836 about Ronnie's intentions, his efforts to redeem himself, and even 0:12:57.876 --> 0:13:00.996 about the original sentence back in the nineteen seventies from 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:04.356 Judge Wilson, and whether it had been fair. In fact, 0:13:04.516 --> 0:13:07.276 Jorge says he came to feel that Ronnie's sentence of 0:13:07.396 --> 0:13:10.716 up to six hundred years did seem a bit fishy 0:13:11.036 --> 0:13:13.196 coming on the heels of the Harry alam On trial, 0:13:13.676 --> 0:13:17.836 and that this might be an instance of camouflage bias. Well, 0:13:17.836 --> 0:13:20.476 it makes sense to me that that a judge would 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:24.116 behave this way and take it out on poor Carraskio 0:13:24.636 --> 0:13:29.116 because he had just given this sniper who was well 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:32.956 known in the community for being a Fielso he gives 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:35.596 them an out, he gives them, he gives them a pass, 0:13:36.236 --> 0:13:38.076 and then of course he's got to cover his tracks 0:13:38.116 --> 0:13:42.836 by then overreacting on the Carraskio man. I thought that 0:13:42.876 --> 0:13:47.556 was an excellent argument, and I believe that we'll be 0:13:47.636 --> 0:14:04.876 right back throughout this process. Ronnie has also faced another 0:14:04.916 --> 0:14:08.876 big challenge. The Chicago Police Department and the union representing 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:12.476 its officers do not want him to get parole, so 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:14.916 much so that they have physically showed up at his 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:19.116 parole hearings. Jorge remembers this. He says, they made quite 0:14:19.156 --> 0:14:24.436 an impression. The conference room was very tight, and Chicago 0:14:24.516 --> 0:14:27.556 would send bus loads of police officers and they would 0:14:27.596 --> 0:14:30.236 all crowd in to the conference room that just fit 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:33.996 the conference table, and there were all there thirty cops 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:37.956 standing around us, and they were looking over our shoulder 0:14:38.436 --> 0:14:41.156 and literally and so as we're casting boats. It was 0:14:41.276 --> 0:14:45.076 very intimidating and very difficult. I've seen a picture of 0:14:45.076 --> 0:14:47.596 this scene and I got to describe it to you. 0:14:48.196 --> 0:14:51.076 You can see the Parole board members sitting at a table, 0:14:51.556 --> 0:14:54.556 and then like a foot behind them is a whole 0:14:54.636 --> 0:15:00.956 crowd of uniformed officers literally hovering over them. With time, 0:15:01.196 --> 0:15:04.476 Jorge came to realize that Ronnie might not ever receive 0:15:04.556 --> 0:15:07.236 enough votes for parole. In fact, at one point he 0:15:07.316 --> 0:15:11.476 even wrote an affid David, Ronnie's behalf. In that Affidavid, 0:15:11.676 --> 0:15:15.556 he said that despite Ronnie's quote excellent prison record and 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:19.436 his strong family and community support, that he was repeatedly 0:15:19.476 --> 0:15:24.356 denied parole because quote, the victim was a Chicago police officer. 0:15:25.236 --> 0:15:28.756 Montez concluded that quote, there are several members of the 0:15:28.796 --> 0:15:32.476 board then and now who will never vote for parole 0:15:32.716 --> 0:15:38.036 when the victim is a police officer. For Ronnie, none 0:15:38.036 --> 0:15:41.276 of this is encouraging. You know, the constitution says we 0:15:41.396 --> 0:15:43.436 have voice that we don't care. How must you got 0:15:43.316 --> 0:15:44.716 that we don't care? None of that? You kill the 0:15:44.756 --> 0:15:47.556 police officer, and they blatantly say, I'm not gonna have 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:51.516 vote for a police killer. So you know, how can 0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:53.916 I ask them for mercy when they're telling me before 0:15:53.996 --> 0:15:56.676 this the hearing's even done. So, I mean, if I 0:15:56.796 --> 0:15:59.876 bring anybody in there to testifying, I'll hope for anything 0:15:59.916 --> 0:16:02.476 like that. We don't want to hear that. And this 0:16:02.556 --> 0:16:06.596 creates a real logistical challenge for Ronnie. Can he get 0:16:06.596 --> 0:16:10.036 the votes he needs to be released. Each time Ronnie 0:16:10.076 --> 0:16:13.036 is up for parole, the board is different. Old members 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:16.756 cycle out, new members cycle in, and he's come close 0:16:16.796 --> 0:16:20.356 a few times. Each one of these moments is seared 0:16:20.396 --> 0:16:23.676 into his memory, moments when it seemed like maybe the 0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:27.356 door was about to swing open for him. In Justice Watch, 0:16:27.476 --> 0:16:31.516 a Chicago based nonprofit newsroom, has done some excellent reporting 0:16:31.556 --> 0:16:34.956 on Ronnie's bid for parole. They found that in the 0:16:35.036 --> 0:16:37.836 years between two thousand and five and two thousand and eight, 0:16:38.396 --> 0:16:41.356 Ronnie had a series of parole hearings and each year 0:16:41.676 --> 0:16:45.436 he came within one vote of winning his freedom. Jorge 0:16:45.596 --> 0:16:48.796 can still remember these votes, how excitement would build as 0:16:48.796 --> 0:16:51.756 the board members cast their votes one at a time 0:16:52.116 --> 0:16:55.596 for those of us that were favorable to his release. 0:16:56.276 --> 0:17:00.436 It builds up a lot of momentum in an expectation. 0:17:00.796 --> 0:17:04.996 And there's one, there's two, there's three. Oh, we're getting closed. 0:17:05.036 --> 0:17:07.396 I think this is it. He's gonna go home. And 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:12.916 then we get to know. So that's it's very tense 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.796 in two thousand and eight, Ronnie actually won a majority 0:17:17.796 --> 0:17:21.116 of votes from the board, six yeses and five nos. 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:25.956 That's a win, right, Nope, The Illinois Prisoner Review Board 0:17:26.116 --> 0:17:29.316 requires that he get a majority of all members, not 0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:32.036 just those in attendance, and that day there were two 0:17:32.116 --> 0:17:34.916 no shows and only thirteen members on the board at 0:17:34.916 --> 0:17:38.836 the time, so his six vote majority it didn't count. 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:42.196 Jorge was the chairman of the parole Board at this point, 0:17:42.716 --> 0:17:45.796 and he says, to come this close and to fall short, 0:17:46.276 --> 0:17:50.876 it was really hard for him personally. You feel deflated 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:55.516 and you feel demoralized because if you really believe in 0:17:55.556 --> 0:17:58.156 this and you work his work and you try to 0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:02.836 keep work away from home, but if you believe that 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:06.716 it's the right thing to do and that we're keeping 0:18:06.756 --> 0:18:10.436 somebody locked up, a human being locked up that in 0:18:10.516 --> 0:18:14.196 the year, you're sympathizing with the family and you see 0:18:14.196 --> 0:18:18.236 all the tears and you see people leaving devastated. Yeah, 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:22.516 it impact, It impacts you. Ronnie wasn't there, but he 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:26.276 soon got the news. According to my law, I was 0:18:26.316 --> 0:18:29.236 supposed to be granted parole. I made the majority of 0:18:28.916 --> 0:18:31.116 the of the vote. To me, like, what's it my 0:18:31.236 --> 0:18:34.436 going before the parole Board thirty five times and getting 0:18:34.876 --> 0:18:38.716 rejected every time. I never go in front of the 0:18:38.716 --> 0:18:41.716 whole committee. I see one person. One person comes and 0:18:41.956 --> 0:18:44.796 they call him my hearing officer. After that, talk to nobody, 0:18:44.836 --> 0:18:48.396 but this one person up against an invisible body that 0:18:48.436 --> 0:18:52.356 I never see. In two and twenty, Ronnie was up 0:18:52.396 --> 0:18:55.676 for parole once again, and the event attracted attention from 0:18:55.676 --> 0:19:01.036 the local press. WGN investigates cop killers going free. Now 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:04.676 another officer's murderer is appealing to the Illinois Prisoner Review 0:19:04.716 --> 0:19:08.076 Board for freedom. This is a news report from WGN 0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:11.036 in Chicago that aired in September of twenty twenty, a 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:13.516 few weeks before Ronnie was set to appear before the 0:19:13.516 --> 0:19:16.276 parole board. You might think that killing a cop would 0:19:16.356 --> 0:19:20.076 lead to an automatic life sentence, but under old sentencing rules, 0:19:20.116 --> 0:19:24.076 inmates are fighting themselves eligible for release, and as we found, 0:19:24.196 --> 0:19:27.596 it often lands in the lapse of deceased officers families 0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:31.076 to fight to keep them locked up. The family members 0:19:31.076 --> 0:19:34.196 of the victim often come to these hearings. It's a 0:19:34.196 --> 0:19:37.316 tortured process. They talk about how hard it's been for 0:19:37.396 --> 0:19:39.516 them and how they hope that the killer will not 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:42.636 be allowed to just walk away. In the wug N 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:46.556 news story about Ronnie, a cousin spoke for the Loftis family. 0:19:47.116 --> 0:19:50.356 We are aging and we need to speak for him. 0:19:50.756 --> 0:19:53.476 We need to speak for his parents and for his brother, 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:57.476 and they are all gone. I did read an interview 0:19:57.476 --> 0:20:00.596 with Loftus's brother before he passed away. He told the 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:05.356 Chicago Sun Times that the shooting devastated the family, saying, quote, 0:20:05.916 --> 0:20:09.676 our mother was never the same. After that, the Fraternal 0:20:09.796 --> 0:20:12.796 Order of Police declined my request for an interview, and 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:16.636 the Chicago Police Department didn't respond my requests for comment. 0:20:17.356 --> 0:20:20.156 But I did manage to find a web page commemorating 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:23.756 Terence Loftis. A number of his friends and fellow police 0:20:23.756 --> 0:20:30.196 officers had posted messages here. One read, I remember the 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:32.716 night he was killed. He was showing me his new 0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:36.396 green leather jacket in the tactical office. A few hours 0:20:36.476 --> 0:20:39.836 later he was shot. I remember seeing him later at 0:20:39.876 --> 0:20:42.596 the hospital with a breathing tube in his mouth and 0:20:42.676 --> 0:20:46.156 the sounds of the air machine pumping in a steady rhythm. 0:20:46.316 --> 0:20:49.316 That vision to this day has haunted me and will 0:20:49.396 --> 0:20:53.436 until the day I die. Unlike the reprobate that killed him, 0:20:53.676 --> 0:20:57.956 Terry was an honorable and exceptional person. Some of the 0:20:57.996 --> 0:21:01.356 posts were written directly to Terry, like letters sent to 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:05.716 him in the beyond. One of those read quote, once again, 0:21:05.876 --> 0:21:08.636 parole has been denied for the individual that took your 0:21:08.716 --> 0:21:11.436 life and cause so much pain to those that love you. 0:21:12.236 --> 0:21:14.796 This time, the parole board said, he has to wait 0:21:14.916 --> 0:21:18.396 three years to be heard again. When that time comes, 0:21:18.716 --> 0:21:21.516 your brother, officers will be there again like they have 0:21:21.636 --> 0:21:24.596 been in the past, to stop this individual from getting 0:21:24.596 --> 0:21:32.516 out of prison. You have not been forgotten. Reading these posts, 0:21:32.956 --> 0:21:35.996 it was heartbreaking, and I could see how, even all 0:21:36.036 --> 0:21:39.236 these years later, his friends and family would still be 0:21:39.316 --> 0:21:42.676 simmering with anguish and rage at the tragedy of it all. 0:21:43.436 --> 0:21:48.156 It also seemed almost cruel that year after year Loftus's 0:21:48.196 --> 0:21:51.276 friends and family members would be expected to attend these 0:21:51.316 --> 0:21:54.916 parole hearings and share these kinds of sentiments, that they'd 0:21:54.956 --> 0:21:59.876 have to relive their trauma again and again. I also 0:21:59.956 --> 0:22:03.436 have to wonder what Terence Loftus himself would say about 0:22:03.476 --> 0:22:05.836 all of this. I wonder how he would want to 0:22:05.876 --> 0:22:10.196 be remembered, what he would want his legacy to be, Because, 0:22:10.436 --> 0:22:13.956 after all, this was a man whose defining act was 0:22:13.996 --> 0:22:18.116 one of courage and decency. His biggest mistake, the thing 0:22:18.116 --> 0:22:21.396 that got him killed, was his inclination to help to 0:22:21.436 --> 0:22:24.556 step into the fray when he absolutely didn't have to. 0:22:30.756 --> 0:22:35.276 For Ronnie, the whole situation is confounding. He accepts his 0:22:35.316 --> 0:22:38.916 responsibility for the death of Officer Loftus, he knows he's 0:22:38.916 --> 0:22:40.956 the one who pulled the trigger, and he says that 0:22:40.996 --> 0:22:44.476 he's done everything in his power to redeem himself. But 0:22:44.556 --> 0:22:47.676 as far as the justice system is concerned, there appears 0:22:47.716 --> 0:22:51.276 to be no real path forward. I'm not supposed to 0:22:51.756 --> 0:22:55.436 mature and be able to have the constitutional right of 0:22:55.556 --> 0:22:59.276 being restored a useful citizenship. The judge didn't leave me 0:22:59.356 --> 0:23:01.956 no room for it. He just waste to me. I'm 0:23:02.036 --> 0:23:06.076 wondering how, in the face of being rejected for parole 0:23:06.236 --> 0:23:09.876 for thirty five times and being in is in from 0:23:09.876 --> 0:23:12.556 almost half a century, like, how do you keep that 0:23:12.676 --> 0:23:17.756 safe in that hopeful lives? Well. I study two hours 0:23:17.756 --> 0:23:19.876 a day, I stay in the scripture, I pray every day, 0:23:20.076 --> 0:23:26.476 I pray with other people. Uh. It's it's heartbreaking, especially 0:23:26.556 --> 0:23:28.996 when you lose family members down the line, and to 0:23:29.116 --> 0:23:32.876 keep your faith. So there's a scripture in there where 0:23:32.876 --> 0:23:37.396 it says, what is a Genesius fifty twenty? Where Mann's 0:23:37.596 --> 0:23:41.156 men means for evil, God means for good. And in 0:23:41.276 --> 0:23:44.756 the Bible, God is a just God is just all justice. 0:23:45.316 --> 0:23:48.636 This whole exchange oddly reminded me of something that Bob 0:23:48.756 --> 0:23:52.036 Cooley once said to me. He said that in his mind, 0:23:52.476 --> 0:23:55.636 the world of justice was divided into man's law and 0:23:55.756 --> 0:23:58.596 God's law, and then he put little faith in Man's law, 0:23:58.956 --> 0:24:02.476 I think because he saw it as arbitrary and fundamentally corrupt. 0:24:03.316 --> 0:24:06.916 But God's law, on the other hand, was pure and transcendent, 0:24:07.556 --> 0:24:11.436 and according to Bob, it's had meaning for him. And 0:24:11.556 --> 0:24:14.596 I kind of understood this. In a city like Chicago, 0:24:14.916 --> 0:24:19.796 where corruption and politics and gang violence and lingering class 0:24:19.876 --> 0:24:24.076 resentments all skewed the law of man, he almost had 0:24:24.116 --> 0:24:27.996 to grasp for something higher, hope that true justice might 0:24:28.076 --> 0:24:32.036 exist elsewhere, in some better realm. And it was here 0:24:32.076 --> 0:24:36.516 that Ronnie's faith resided. Though I wondered if he thought 0:24:36.516 --> 0:24:39.316 that this faith alone would actually get him past that 0:24:39.396 --> 0:24:43.156 parole board. What do you think your chances of being 0:24:43.156 --> 0:24:46.116 released are. I'm gonna get release. I have faith in God. 0:24:47.516 --> 0:24:50.716 I pray every day that he uh put on the 0:24:50.756 --> 0:24:53.556 hearts of the just people, you know, to see the scenario, 0:24:54.116 --> 0:24:59.796 and they don't address the politics of it and give 0:24:59.836 --> 0:25:03.236 the judgment by law. I'm not gonna surrender myself all 0:25:03.316 --> 0:25:05.156 gonna die here. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go 0:25:05.276 --> 0:25:07.836 for it. I'm not I'm not living that way. If 0:25:07.836 --> 0:25:11.476 you were released tomorrow, what's the first thing you would do. 0:25:12.596 --> 0:25:14.956 I will sit in the backyard basically look up to 0:25:14.956 --> 0:25:18.076 see the sky, see the stars at night. And the 0:25:18.796 --> 0:25:21.636 threat is over. So I came from a gang life. 0:25:21.916 --> 0:25:24.756 That threat never goes away. So the first thing I 0:25:24.756 --> 0:25:27.316 want to do is just go and just life, oh 0:25:27.356 --> 0:25:30.396 man and all it's over, and then go go live 0:25:30.516 --> 0:25:32.716 the life from there. I got so much time left 0:25:32.756 --> 0:25:36.516 to live. Basically, Gopia helped in humanity is supposed to 0:25:36.516 --> 0:25:38.076 do in the first place, be a giver. I was 0:25:38.116 --> 0:25:40.636 a taker as a kid. I can't take back my 0:25:41.236 --> 0:25:44.036 criminal activity as again, I can't take back I can't 0:25:44.036 --> 0:25:45.436 put the bulls back and I go I can't do 0:25:45.476 --> 0:25:50.916 any of them. I'm going to go forward. This summer, 0:25:51.196 --> 0:25:54.396 Ronnie was moved to a new facility, a reentry center. 0:25:54.996 --> 0:25:58.796 Ronnie's attorney petition to have him moved there. He's there 0:25:58.836 --> 0:26:01.316 to learn some basic life skills like how to write 0:26:01.316 --> 0:26:04.716 a resume and how to manage finances, skills that he 0:26:04.756 --> 0:26:08.876 would need if he ever makes parole. Ronnie is now 0:26:08.876 --> 0:26:11.756 sick four years old. He'll be up for parole again 0:26:12.156 --> 0:26:30.836 in November of twenty twenty two. This episode of deep 0:26:30.876 --> 0:26:34.796 Cover was produced by Amy Gaines and edited by Karen Shakerge. 0:26:35.516 --> 0:26:39.876