1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake Today. We're continuing with the Ronnie 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:26,636 Speaker 1: Kiskio story. This is part two, so if you haven't 3 00:00:26,636 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: listened to part one yet, you should definitely go back 4 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:34,676 Speaker 1: and do that now. So last episode we ended with 5 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: Ronnie getting some good news or what seemed like it. Anyhow, 6 00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:41,676 Speaker 1: the court basically told him, we think your sentence of 7 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:45,116 Speaker 1: two hundred to six hundred years may have violated a 8 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 1: clause in the Illinois Constitution. That clause, by the way, 9 00:00:49,156 --> 00:00:53,636 Speaker 1: says quote, all penalties shall be determined both according to 10 00:00:53,676 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: the seriousness of the offense and with the objective of 11 00:00:56,676 --> 00:01:02,916 Speaker 1: restoring the offender to useful citizenship. Bottom line, Ronnie could 12 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:07,436 Speaker 1: now be resentenced. Well maybe. Last June there was yet 13 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:10,476 Speaker 1: another hearing to figure this all out. He took days. 14 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:14,356 Speaker 1: Ronnie's lawyer, Michael Deutsch, brought in over a dozen witnesses 15 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 1: to testify about who Ronnie was and is now, about 16 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:20,636 Speaker 1: the type of man that Ronnie has become in prison. 17 00:01:21,156 --> 00:01:24,156 Speaker 1: One of those witnesses was Ali Pruitt, a lawyer and 18 00:01:24,276 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 1: Chicago activist. She talked about Ronnie and the people he'd 19 00:01:28,076 --> 00:01:31,436 Speaker 1: mentored or inspired. What really has stuck out to me 20 00:01:31,516 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 1: over the years is the positive impact he's left I 21 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:38,316 Speaker 1: not only folks who have been incarcerated, but folks who haven't. 22 00:01:38,996 --> 00:01:44,276 Speaker 1: He has this sort of positive influence and inspiring story, 23 00:01:44,316 --> 00:01:46,796 Speaker 1: and it's just such a motivator for so many people, 24 00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 1: for his family, for his friends. The State of Illinois 25 00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:54,916 Speaker 1: had lawyers there arguing the other side, it's always difficult 26 00:01:54,996 --> 00:01:57,996 Speaker 1: in a post conviction proceeding to take what we know 27 00:01:58,156 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: today and apply it to a trial proceeding that happened 28 00:02:02,756 --> 00:02:07,156 Speaker 1: years and in this case, decades ago. The circumstances of 29 00:02:07,196 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 1: the crime, the facts of the under lying crime, those 30 00:02:10,116 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 1: have all been litigated, and its council said, we're not 31 00:02:12,636 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 1: here to relitigate the facts of the case. Basically, the 32 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:19,356 Speaker 1: state was saying, look, we're not here for a new trial. 33 00:02:19,836 --> 00:02:24,996 Speaker 1: We're only here to determine if Ronnie Kariskio should be resentenced. Now, 34 00:02:25,316 --> 00:02:28,676 Speaker 1: Ronnie claimed that his sentence was unfair and disproportionate to 35 00:02:28,716 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 1: his crime. But the state then argues, what really matters 36 00:02:32,556 --> 00:02:35,116 Speaker 1: here is that Ronnie has a shot at release, and 37 00:02:35,196 --> 00:02:39,156 Speaker 1: as long as he does well, then the sentence is fair. 38 00:02:39,916 --> 00:02:42,116 Speaker 1: And that is key to the decision and the key 39 00:02:42,156 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 1: to the analysis here because mister Karasko is eligible for parole. 40 00:02:48,476 --> 00:02:51,556 Speaker 1: In other words, perhaps six hundred years sounds like a 41 00:02:51,596 --> 00:02:55,556 Speaker 1: long time, but he's eligible for parole. So what's the problem. 42 00:02:56,156 --> 00:03:00,436 Speaker 1: And the judge basically agrees. What does this mean for Ronnie? Well, 43 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 1: it means that he now has to place all of 44 00:03:02,596 --> 00:03:07,316 Speaker 1: his hopes on getting parole. There's just one problem when 45 00:03:07,356 --> 00:03:10,116 Speaker 1: it comes to the parole boards. Seems that he can't 46 00:03:10,276 --> 00:03:14,076 Speaker 1: escape the notoriety of his own story. Ronnie's been in 47 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:17,876 Speaker 1: prison for nearly half a century and he's stuck in 48 00:03:17,956 --> 00:03:21,756 Speaker 1: a convoluted legal system, a system that perhaps could be 49 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:25,156 Speaker 1: gamed by an operator like Bob Cooley, but which was 50 00:03:25,396 --> 00:03:28,676 Speaker 1: terrifying to a guy like Ronnie who was trapped inside 51 00:03:29,036 --> 00:03:32,436 Speaker 1: with no fixer to call. And I gotta tell you, 52 00:03:32,836 --> 00:03:35,716 Speaker 1: at times, Ronnie's story felt a bit like a Franz 53 00:03:35,796 --> 00:03:39,436 Speaker 1: Kafka novel. There's a guy and he's stuck trying to 54 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 1: find his way out of one darkened labyrinth after another, 55 00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:45,676 Speaker 1: and every time it looks like there might be an exit, 56 00:03:46,596 --> 00:04:13,916 Speaker 1: the lights flicker out. I'm Jake Halpern and this is 57 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:49,596 Speaker 1: deep cover mob Land. Thank you for using Securist. You 58 00:04:49,636 --> 00:04:53,796 Speaker 1: may start the conversation. Now this morning, Hey Ronnie, how 59 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: are you well? It will go again. Ronnie's been incarcerated 60 00:04:58,436 --> 00:05:02,396 Speaker 1: since October of nineteen seventy six. Back then, Ronnie was 61 00:05:02,436 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 1: a teenager and a gang member. One night, he got 62 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 1: involved in a fight. He says he shot off the 63 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:11,636 Speaker 1: gun to break things up and accidentally killed an off 64 00:05:11,676 --> 00:05:16,876 Speaker 1: duty policeman, a man named Terence Loftis. Ronnie was sentenced 65 00:05:16,876 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 1: to two hundred to six hundred years in prison, and 66 00:05:20,436 --> 00:05:23,756 Speaker 1: afterwards he was sort of stunned. He says. It took 67 00:05:23,796 --> 00:05:26,596 Speaker 1: him years to realize what the sentence would really mean 68 00:05:26,676 --> 00:05:32,196 Speaker 1: for him and realize. He filed some early appeals that 69 00:05:32,276 --> 00:05:37,436 Speaker 1: went well, nowhere, that's my father. Don't buy no more appeals. 70 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 1: I'll buy no more lawyers. I go to the provok 71 00:05:39,676 --> 00:05:41,716 Speaker 1: I'm gonna see it and I shot this type from 72 00:05:41,716 --> 00:05:45,676 Speaker 1: far away. There's no attention in it, and I'll make parole. Parole. 73 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 1: That was Ronnie's big hope. Yeah. Sure, maybe he'd gotten 74 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 1: slammed on his sentencing, but with good behavior, he hoped 75 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 1: he'd get out on parole. So he gradually turned his 76 00:05:56,596 --> 00:06:00,156 Speaker 1: life around in prison. He renounced his gang membership. He 77 00:06:00,236 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: learned a number of trades got his geed, found religion, 78 00:06:04,076 --> 00:06:07,396 Speaker 1: became a mentor, he says, in so many ways, he 79 00:06:07,436 --> 00:06:10,636 Speaker 1: became a different person. And he figured the parole board 80 00:06:10,756 --> 00:06:13,676 Speaker 1: would see this, that they'd review the facts of his 81 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:17,396 Speaker 1: case and release him. How many times have you been 82 00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:21,596 Speaker 1: before a parole board? I think thirty five times. At 83 00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: least thirty five times. Over thirty times Ronnie's gone before 84 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 1: the parole board. That's almost once a year. It's kind 85 00:06:29,036 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 1: of like going to the Super Bowl annually and losing 86 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: every single time. Ronnie just keeps getting told Nope, you're 87 00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: not getting out. Even so each year or so, when 88 00:06:40,436 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 1: Ronnie comes up for parole, he keeps trying, keeps providing 89 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:48,236 Speaker 1: evidence of his rehabilitation, and talks about how far he's come. 90 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:52,196 Speaker 1: My life is transform so much from what I came 91 00:06:52,236 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 1: as a youth. I was a poor student. I was 92 00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: not help right educational wise, book wise, not that I 93 00:06:58,596 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: got my gez started going to college a half sixty 94 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:05,916 Speaker 1: seven different trades while behind bars, He's worked as an electrician, 95 00:07:06,236 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 1: a welder, a locksmith, a pipe bend and a washer 96 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 1: dryer repairman. He's also trained to become a typist and 97 00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 1: a paralegal. He's mentored fellow inmates, given them legal advice. 98 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: He's coached the prisons baseball team and organized soccer tournaments 99 00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:24,476 Speaker 1: for his jailmates. He's a pastor, and he's even written 100 00:07:24,476 --> 00:07:29,276 Speaker 1: a Bible study workbook called Covenant with Abraham. Ronnie is 101 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:32,556 Speaker 1: not allowed to attend parole hearings in person, but his 102 00:07:32,676 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 1: supporters are and they do. They show up and vouch 103 00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:40,516 Speaker 1: for him. All different kinds, black, white, Latin, whatever, races, 104 00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,356 Speaker 1: different ex gang members, different and all of them write 105 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:46,036 Speaker 1: letters that I impacted their life. And I've been coaching 106 00:07:46,076 --> 00:07:48,236 Speaker 1: them in Christianity for long to say, oh you'll live 107 00:07:48,236 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 1: your life, will help your modi, health, your family, and 108 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:53,196 Speaker 1: there's all I do for my whole forty six years. 109 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:56,836 Speaker 1: Over the years, Ronnie has won over a number of supporters, 110 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 1: including religious leaders, an Alderman, a US congressman, even one 111 00:08:01,516 --> 00:08:04,356 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors who originally brought the case against him. 112 00:08:04,956 --> 00:08:08,996 Speaker 1: That prosecutor, Thomas Breen, noted that Ronnie's years of men 113 00:08:09,516 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 1: showed him to be a model for other inmates. Breen 114 00:08:12,716 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 1: went so far as to compare Ronnie to the police 115 00:08:15,116 --> 00:08:18,836 Speaker 1: officer he killed. He said that Ronnie had quote many 116 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:23,116 Speaker 1: of the generous characteristics of a caring person, not unlike 117 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:28,116 Speaker 1: Terry Loftus. Members of the media have also written about 118 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 1: Ronnie's story, tracking his bid for freedom. All of this 119 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 1: seems like it might tip the scales in Ronnie's favor, right, 120 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 1: the only problem being the parole board itself. It's known 121 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:44,356 Speaker 1: in Illinois as the Prisoner Review Board. Now in theory, 122 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 1: it's a neutral body that can reach its own independent verdict. 123 00:08:48,236 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 1: Its members are appointed by the governor. Its ranks include 124 00:08:51,596 --> 00:08:57,036 Speaker 1: former parole officers, prosecutors, social workers, cops, and politicians. The 125 00:08:57,116 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 1: board operates with virtually no oversight, and its decisions are 126 00:09:01,076 --> 00:09:05,356 Speaker 1: not reviewable in court. Jorge Montez sat on that parole 127 00:09:05,356 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: board for sixteen years. I was law and order and 128 00:09:11,156 --> 00:09:15,636 Speaker 1: conservative Republican, and I was going to do what all 129 00:09:15,876 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 1: conservative people should do, is keep them all in and 130 00:09:19,396 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 1: not let anybody out. That's what I set out to do. 131 00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:25,876 Speaker 1: Jorge was a former prosecutor, and he was tough. He 132 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:29,796 Speaker 1: wasn't inclined to let many guys out. And then one 133 00:09:29,876 --> 00:09:33,836 Speaker 1: day this one inmate comes up for parole. Jorge says, 134 00:09:33,876 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: this inmate had a very strong case for being released, 135 00:09:37,156 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: but Korge still voted no. He said, he did it 136 00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 1: almost automatically, like that's just what he was supposed to do. 137 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:49,916 Speaker 1: And then something kind of odd happened. The very conservative 138 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:53,876 Speaker 1: Republican chairman told me, mister Montez, is there something we're 139 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: missing here? I said, well, why would that be. You're 140 00:09:58,036 --> 00:10:00,716 Speaker 1: voting to deny parole for what appears to be a 141 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 1: pretty perfect candidate for a parole. I said, in that case, 142 00:10:04,796 --> 00:10:07,276 Speaker 1: I withdraw my emotion and I would move that we 143 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:10,596 Speaker 1: parole them, and we did. It was almost like on 144 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:14,476 Speaker 1: some level, Jorge was looking for permission to show leniency, 145 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:19,076 Speaker 1: to say, you know what, Yeah, this guy does deserve 146 00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,076 Speaker 1: a second chance. Let him out. And that started my 147 00:10:22,156 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 1: journey on these issues. So increasingly I began to scrutinize cases, 148 00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:31,916 Speaker 1: to really consider whether there's somebody had changed their lives 149 00:10:32,476 --> 00:10:38,076 Speaker 1: and that warranted a second look, a second chance. And 150 00:10:38,476 --> 00:10:40,756 Speaker 1: increasingly I began to find that a lot of these 151 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 1: people were really redeemable, and my votes started to reflect that. 152 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:49,396 Speaker 1: All of that being said, when Jorge first heard Ronnie's 153 00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:53,156 Speaker 1: case for parole, he says he wasn't persuaded, not at 154 00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:56,916 Speaker 1: first anyhow, especially given the fact that Ronnie had killed 155 00:10:56,916 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 1: a police officer. Jorge says that he voted against Ronnie 156 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: a few times. At these hearings, the inmates are not 157 00:11:04,036 --> 00:11:07,636 Speaker 1: allowed to show up and speak for themselves. Instead, one 158 00:11:07,676 --> 00:11:10,556 Speaker 1: member of the parole board speaks with the inmate and 159 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:14,636 Speaker 1: then presents their case, almost like a lawyer, but not really, 160 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 1: because the presenters they may have their own agenda and 161 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:21,276 Speaker 1: they might not advocate for that inmate at all. So 162 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: maybe you're starting to get what I'm talking about when 163 00:11:23,636 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 1: I say this whole process at times feels like something 164 00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 1: that Franz Kafka cooked up. Anyway, one day, Ronnie is 165 00:11:32,436 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 1: up for parole yet again, Jorge, I'm still not convinced 166 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:39,116 Speaker 1: that Ronnie should be set free. And on this occasion, 167 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:43,716 Speaker 1: Ronnie's presenter is well, I'll just let Jorge explain. There 168 00:11:43,956 --> 00:11:47,276 Speaker 1: was a gentleman on the board named Dick Doria, and 169 00:11:47,396 --> 00:11:51,596 Speaker 1: Dick Doria was a sheriff of Tuopage County formerly the sheriff, 170 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:57,116 Speaker 1: a hard conserve, ultra conservative. So bad news for Ronnie. Right, 171 00:11:57,716 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 1: But wait, because Dick Doria, the conservative former sheriff, when 172 00:12:02,316 --> 00:12:06,116 Speaker 1: he made his presentation, he said something that really surprised 173 00:12:06,196 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: Jorge and Dick said than it was impossible, in his 174 00:12:11,316 --> 00:12:17,836 Speaker 1: professional opinion, that Ronnie would have killed this officer purposefully intentionally. 175 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:21,836 Speaker 1: Impossible the kind of weapon he used. And mister Doria 176 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 1: knew all about ballistics and weapons and calibers, and he 177 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:29,676 Speaker 1: made a wonderful presentation. He said, I'm not well, I'm 178 00:12:29,756 --> 00:12:32,636 Speaker 1: voting to release this man because I think he did 179 00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:37,516 Speaker 1: not intentionally kill the police officer. According to Jorge, Dictoria 180 00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:40,476 Speaker 1: said that he looked at the evidence, the distances, the 181 00:12:40,516 --> 00:12:43,996 Speaker 1: ballistics and the like, and determined it did not up. 182 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:47,916 Speaker 1: It didn't make sense that Ronnie had killed this cop intentionally, 183 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:53,596 Speaker 1: and this really got Jorge thinking critically about Ronnie's whole case, 184 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:57,836 Speaker 1: about Ronnie's intentions, his efforts to redeem himself, and even 185 00:12:57,876 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 1: about the original sentence back in the nineteen seventies from 186 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:04,356 Speaker 1: Judge Wilson, and whether it had been fair. In fact, 187 00:13:04,516 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 1: Jorge says he came to feel that Ronnie's sentence of 188 00:13:07,396 --> 00:13:10,716 Speaker 1: up to six hundred years did seem a bit fishy 189 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: coming on the heels of the Harry alam On trial, 190 00:13:13,676 --> 00:13:17,836 Speaker 1: and that this might be an instance of camouflage bias. Well, 191 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,476 Speaker 1: it makes sense to me that that a judge would 192 00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 1: behave this way and take it out on poor Carraskio 193 00:13:24,636 --> 00:13:29,116 Speaker 1: because he had just given this sniper who was well 194 00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:32,956 Speaker 1: known in the community for being a Fielso he gives 195 00:13:32,996 --> 00:13:35,596 Speaker 1: them an out, he gives them, he gives them a pass, 196 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 1: and then of course he's got to cover his tracks 197 00:13:38,116 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 1: by then overreacting on the Carraskio man. I thought that 198 00:13:42,876 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 1: was an excellent argument, and I believe that we'll be 199 00:13:47,636 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 1: right back throughout this process. Ronnie has also faced another 200 00:14:04,916 --> 00:14:08,876 Speaker 1: big challenge. The Chicago Police Department and the union representing 201 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: its officers do not want him to get parole, so 202 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 1: much so that they have physically showed up at his 203 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 1: parole hearings. Jorge remembers this. He says, they made quite 204 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:24,436 Speaker 1: an impression. The conference room was very tight, and Chicago 205 00:14:24,516 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 1: would send bus loads of police officers and they would 206 00:14:27,596 --> 00:14:30,236 Speaker 1: all crowd in to the conference room that just fit 207 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:33,996 Speaker 1: the conference table, and there were all there thirty cops 208 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 1: standing around us, and they were looking over our shoulder 209 00:14:38,436 --> 00:14:41,156 Speaker 1: and literally and so as we're casting boats. It was 210 00:14:41,276 --> 00:14:45,076 Speaker 1: very intimidating and very difficult. I've seen a picture of 211 00:14:45,076 --> 00:14:47,596 Speaker 1: this scene and I got to describe it to you. 212 00:14:48,196 --> 00:14:51,076 Speaker 1: You can see the Parole board members sitting at a table, 213 00:14:51,556 --> 00:14:54,556 Speaker 1: and then like a foot behind them is a whole 214 00:14:54,636 --> 00:15:00,956 Speaker 1: crowd of uniformed officers literally hovering over them. With time, 215 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 1: Jorge came to realize that Ronnie might not ever receive 216 00:15:04,556 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 1: enough votes for parole. In fact, at one point he 217 00:15:07,316 --> 00:15:11,476 Speaker 1: even wrote an affid David, Ronnie's behalf. In that Affidavid, 218 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 1: he said that despite Ronnie's quote excellent prison record and 219 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:19,436 Speaker 1: his strong family and community support, that he was repeatedly 220 00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:24,356 Speaker 1: denied parole because quote, the victim was a Chicago police officer. 221 00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 1: Montez concluded that quote, there are several members of the 222 00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:32,476 Speaker 1: board then and now who will never vote for parole 223 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:38,036 Speaker 1: when the victim is a police officer. For Ronnie, none 224 00:15:38,036 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 1: of this is encouraging. You know, the constitution says we 225 00:15:41,396 --> 00:15:43,436 Speaker 1: have voice that we don't care. How must you got 226 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: that we don't care? None of that? You kill the 227 00:15:44,756 --> 00:15:47,556 Speaker 1: police officer, and they blatantly say, I'm not gonna have 228 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 1: vote for a police killer. So you know, how can 229 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 1: I ask them for mercy when they're telling me before 230 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 1: this the hearing's even done. So, I mean, if I 231 00:15:56,796 --> 00:15:59,876 Speaker 1: bring anybody in there to testifying, I'll hope for anything 232 00:15:59,916 --> 00:16:02,476 Speaker 1: like that. We don't want to hear that. And this 233 00:16:02,556 --> 00:16:06,596 Speaker 1: creates a real logistical challenge for Ronnie. Can he get 234 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: the votes he needs to be released. Each time Ronnie 235 00:16:10,076 --> 00:16:13,036 Speaker 1: is up for parole, the board is different. Old members 236 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:16,756 Speaker 1: cycle out, new members cycle in, and he's come close 237 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:20,356 Speaker 1: a few times. Each one of these moments is seared 238 00:16:20,396 --> 00:16:23,676 Speaker 1: into his memory, moments when it seemed like maybe the 239 00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:27,356 Speaker 1: door was about to swing open for him. In Justice Watch, 240 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:31,516 Speaker 1: a Chicago based nonprofit newsroom, has done some excellent reporting 241 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:34,956 Speaker 1: on Ronnie's bid for parole. They found that in the 242 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 1: years between two thousand and five and two thousand and eight, 243 00:16:38,396 --> 00:16:41,356 Speaker 1: Ronnie had a series of parole hearings and each year 244 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:45,436 Speaker 1: he came within one vote of winning his freedom. Jorge 245 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:48,796 Speaker 1: can still remember these votes, how excitement would build as 246 00:16:48,796 --> 00:16:51,756 Speaker 1: the board members cast their votes one at a time 247 00:16:52,116 --> 00:16:55,596 Speaker 1: for those of us that were favorable to his release. 248 00:16:56,276 --> 00:17:00,436 Speaker 1: It builds up a lot of momentum in an expectation. 249 00:17:00,796 --> 00:17:04,996 Speaker 1: And there's one, there's two, there's three. Oh, we're getting closed. 250 00:17:05,036 --> 00:17:07,396 Speaker 1: I think this is it. He's gonna go home. And 251 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:12,916 Speaker 1: then we get to know. So that's it's very tense 252 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:17,796 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, Ronnie actually won a majority 253 00:17:17,796 --> 00:17:21,116 Speaker 1: of votes from the board, six yeses and five nos. 254 00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: That's a win, right, Nope, The Illinois Prisoner Review Board 255 00:17:26,116 --> 00:17:29,316 Speaker 1: requires that he get a majority of all members, not 256 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:32,036 Speaker 1: just those in attendance, and that day there were two 257 00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: no shows and only thirteen members on the board at 258 00:17:34,916 --> 00:17:38,836 Speaker 1: the time, so his six vote majority it didn't count. 259 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:42,196 Speaker 1: Jorge was the chairman of the parole Board at this point, 260 00:17:42,716 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 1: and he says, to come this close and to fall short, 261 00:17:46,276 --> 00:17:50,876 Speaker 1: it was really hard for him personally. You feel deflated 262 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:55,516 Speaker 1: and you feel demoralized because if you really believe in 263 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:58,156 Speaker 1: this and you work his work and you try to 264 00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:02,836 Speaker 1: keep work away from home, but if you believe that 265 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:06,716 Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do and that we're keeping 266 00:18:06,756 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 1: somebody locked up, a human being locked up that in 267 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:14,196 Speaker 1: the year, you're sympathizing with the family and you see 268 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: all the tears and you see people leaving devastated. Yeah, 269 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: it impact, It impacts you. Ronnie wasn't there, but he 270 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 1: soon got the news. According to my law, I was 271 00:18:26,316 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: supposed to be granted parole. I made the majority of 272 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:31,116 Speaker 1: the of the vote. To me, like, what's it my 273 00:18:31,236 --> 00:18:34,436 Speaker 1: going before the parole Board thirty five times and getting 274 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:38,716 Speaker 1: rejected every time. I never go in front of the 275 00:18:38,716 --> 00:18:41,716 Speaker 1: whole committee. I see one person. One person comes and 276 00:18:41,956 --> 00:18:44,796 Speaker 1: they call him my hearing officer. After that, talk to nobody, 277 00:18:44,836 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 1: but this one person up against an invisible body that 278 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 1: I never see. In two and twenty, Ronnie was up 279 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,676 Speaker 1: for parole once again, and the event attracted attention from 280 00:18:55,676 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: the local press. WGN investigates cop killers going free. Now 281 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 1: another officer's murderer is appealing to the Illinois Prisoner Review 282 00:19:04,716 --> 00:19:08,076 Speaker 1: Board for freedom. This is a news report from WGN 283 00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:11,036 Speaker 1: in Chicago that aired in September of twenty twenty, a 284 00:19:11,076 --> 00:19:13,516 Speaker 1: few weeks before Ronnie was set to appear before the 285 00:19:13,516 --> 00:19:16,276 Speaker 1: parole board. You might think that killing a cop would 286 00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:20,076 Speaker 1: lead to an automatic life sentence, but under old sentencing rules, 287 00:19:20,116 --> 00:19:24,076 Speaker 1: inmates are fighting themselves eligible for release, and as we found, 288 00:19:24,196 --> 00:19:27,596 Speaker 1: it often lands in the lapse of deceased officers families 289 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 1: to fight to keep them locked up. The family members 290 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: of the victim often come to these hearings. It's a 291 00:19:34,196 --> 00:19:37,316 Speaker 1: tortured process. They talk about how hard it's been for 292 00:19:37,396 --> 00:19:39,516 Speaker 1: them and how they hope that the killer will not 293 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 1: be allowed to just walk away. In the wug N 294 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 1: news story about Ronnie, a cousin spoke for the Loftis family. 295 00:19:47,116 --> 00:19:50,356 Speaker 1: We are aging and we need to speak for him. 296 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 1: We need to speak for his parents and for his brother, 297 00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 1: and they are all gone. I did read an interview 298 00:19:57,476 --> 00:20:00,596 Speaker 1: with Loftus's brother before he passed away. He told the 299 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 1: Chicago Sun Times that the shooting devastated the family, saying, quote, 300 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:09,676 Speaker 1: our mother was never the same. After that, the Fraternal 301 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:12,796 Speaker 1: Order of Police declined my request for an interview, and 302 00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:16,636 Speaker 1: the Chicago Police Department didn't respond my requests for comment. 303 00:20:17,356 --> 00:20:20,156 Speaker 1: But I did manage to find a web page commemorating 304 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 1: Terence Loftis. A number of his friends and fellow police 305 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:30,196 Speaker 1: officers had posted messages here. One read, I remember the 306 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:32,716 Speaker 1: night he was killed. He was showing me his new 307 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 1: green leather jacket in the tactical office. A few hours 308 00:20:36,476 --> 00:20:39,836 Speaker 1: later he was shot. I remember seeing him later at 309 00:20:39,876 --> 00:20:42,596 Speaker 1: the hospital with a breathing tube in his mouth and 310 00:20:42,676 --> 00:20:46,156 Speaker 1: the sounds of the air machine pumping in a steady rhythm. 311 00:20:46,316 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 1: That vision to this day has haunted me and will 312 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: until the day I die. Unlike the reprobate that killed him, 313 00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:57,956 Speaker 1: Terry was an honorable and exceptional person. Some of the 314 00:20:57,996 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 1: posts were written directly to Terry, like letters sent to 315 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 1: him in the beyond. One of those read quote, once again, 316 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:08,636 Speaker 1: parole has been denied for the individual that took your 317 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 1: life and cause so much pain to those that love you. 318 00:21:12,236 --> 00:21:14,796 Speaker 1: This time, the parole board said, he has to wait 319 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 1: three years to be heard again. When that time comes, 320 00:21:18,716 --> 00:21:21,516 Speaker 1: your brother, officers will be there again like they have 321 00:21:21,636 --> 00:21:24,596 Speaker 1: been in the past, to stop this individual from getting 322 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:32,516 Speaker 1: out of prison. You have not been forgotten. Reading these posts, 323 00:21:32,956 --> 00:21:35,996 Speaker 1: it was heartbreaking, and I could see how, even all 324 00:21:36,036 --> 00:21:39,236 Speaker 1: these years later, his friends and family would still be 325 00:21:39,316 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 1: simmering with anguish and rage at the tragedy of it all. 326 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:48,156 Speaker 1: It also seemed almost cruel that year after year Loftus's 327 00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:51,276 Speaker 1: friends and family members would be expected to attend these 328 00:21:51,316 --> 00:21:54,916 Speaker 1: parole hearings and share these kinds of sentiments, that they'd 329 00:21:54,956 --> 00:21:59,876 Speaker 1: have to relive their trauma again and again. I also 330 00:21:59,956 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: have to wonder what Terence Loftus himself would say about 331 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:05,836 Speaker 1: all of this. I wonder how he would want to 332 00:22:05,876 --> 00:22:10,196 Speaker 1: be remembered, what he would want his legacy to be, Because, 333 00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 1: after all, this was a man whose defining act was 334 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:18,116 Speaker 1: one of courage and decency. His biggest mistake, the thing 335 00:22:18,116 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 1: that got him killed, was his inclination to help to 336 00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 1: step into the fray when he absolutely didn't have to. 337 00:22:30,756 --> 00:22:35,276 Speaker 1: For Ronnie, the whole situation is confounding. He accepts his 338 00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 1: responsibility for the death of Officer Loftus, he knows he's 339 00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:40,956 Speaker 1: the one who pulled the trigger, and he says that 340 00:22:40,996 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 1: he's done everything in his power to redeem himself. But 341 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:47,676 Speaker 1: as far as the justice system is concerned, there appears 342 00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:51,276 Speaker 1: to be no real path forward. I'm not supposed to 343 00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:55,436 Speaker 1: mature and be able to have the constitutional right of 344 00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:59,276 Speaker 1: being restored a useful citizenship. The judge didn't leave me 345 00:22:59,356 --> 00:23:01,956 Speaker 1: no room for it. He just waste to me. I'm 346 00:23:02,036 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: wondering how, in the face of being rejected for parole 347 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:09,876 Speaker 1: for thirty five times and being in is in from 348 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:12,556 Speaker 1: almost half a century, like, how do you keep that 349 00:23:12,676 --> 00:23:17,756 Speaker 1: safe in that hopeful lives? Well. I study two hours 350 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:19,876 Speaker 1: a day, I stay in the scripture, I pray every day, 351 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: I pray with other people. Uh. It's it's heartbreaking, especially 352 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:28,996 Speaker 1: when you lose family members down the line, and to 353 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 1: keep your faith. So there's a scripture in there where 354 00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:37,396 Speaker 1: it says, what is a Genesius fifty twenty? Where Mann's 355 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:41,156 Speaker 1: men means for evil, God means for good. And in 356 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 1: the Bible, God is a just God is just all justice. 357 00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:48,636 Speaker 1: This whole exchange oddly reminded me of something that Bob 358 00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:52,036 Speaker 1: Cooley once said to me. He said that in his mind, 359 00:23:52,476 --> 00:23:55,636 Speaker 1: the world of justice was divided into man's law and 360 00:23:55,756 --> 00:23:58,596 Speaker 1: God's law, and then he put little faith in Man's law, 361 00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:02,476 Speaker 1: I think because he saw it as arbitrary and fundamentally corrupt. 362 00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:06,916 Speaker 1: But God's law, on the other hand, was pure and transcendent, 363 00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:11,436 Speaker 1: and according to Bob, it's had meaning for him. And 364 00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:14,596 Speaker 1: I kind of understood this. In a city like Chicago, 365 00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 1: where corruption and politics and gang violence and lingering class 366 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:24,076 Speaker 1: resentments all skewed the law of man, he almost had 367 00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:27,996 Speaker 1: to grasp for something higher, hope that true justice might 368 00:24:28,076 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 1: exist elsewhere, in some better realm. And it was here 369 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:36,516 Speaker 1: that Ronnie's faith resided. Though I wondered if he thought 370 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: that this faith alone would actually get him past that 371 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 1: parole board. What do you think your chances of being 372 00:24:43,156 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: released are. I'm gonna get release. I have faith in God. 373 00:24:47,516 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 1: I pray every day that he uh put on the 374 00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:53,556 Speaker 1: hearts of the just people, you know, to see the scenario, 375 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: and they don't address the politics of it and give 376 00:24:59,836 --> 00:25:03,236 Speaker 1: the judgment by law. I'm not gonna surrender myself all 377 00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:05,156 Speaker 1: gonna die here. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go 378 00:25:05,276 --> 00:25:07,836 Speaker 1: for it. I'm not I'm not living that way. If 379 00:25:07,836 --> 00:25:11,476 Speaker 1: you were released tomorrow, what's the first thing you would do. 380 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:14,956 Speaker 1: I will sit in the backyard basically look up to 381 00:25:14,956 --> 00:25:18,076 Speaker 1: see the sky, see the stars at night. And the 382 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 1: threat is over. So I came from a gang life. 383 00:25:21,916 --> 00:25:24,756 Speaker 1: That threat never goes away. So the first thing I 384 00:25:24,756 --> 00:25:27,316 Speaker 1: want to do is just go and just life, oh 385 00:25:27,356 --> 00:25:30,396 Speaker 1: man and all it's over, and then go go live 386 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:32,716 Speaker 1: the life from there. I got so much time left 387 00:25:32,756 --> 00:25:36,516 Speaker 1: to live. Basically, Gopia helped in humanity is supposed to 388 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 1: do in the first place, be a giver. I was 389 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:40,636 Speaker 1: a taker as a kid. I can't take back my 390 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:44,036 Speaker 1: criminal activity as again, I can't take back I can't 391 00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:45,436 Speaker 1: put the bulls back and I go I can't do 392 00:25:45,476 --> 00:25:50,916 Speaker 1: any of them. I'm going to go forward. This summer, 393 00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 1: Ronnie was moved to a new facility, a reentry center. 394 00:25:54,996 --> 00:25:58,796 Speaker 1: Ronnie's attorney petition to have him moved there. He's there 395 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:01,316 Speaker 1: to learn some basic life skills like how to write 396 00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 1: a resume and how to manage finances, skills that he 397 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:08,876 Speaker 1: would need if he ever makes parole. Ronnie is now 398 00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 1: sick four years old. He'll be up for parole again 399 00:26:12,156 --> 00:26:30,836 Speaker 1: in November of twenty twenty two. This episode of deep 400 00:26:30,876 --> 00:26:34,796 Speaker 1: Cover was produced by Amy Gaines and edited by Karen Shakerge. 401 00:26:35,516 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 1: Our managing producers Jacob Smith. Original music and our theme 402 00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:45,196 Speaker 1: was composed by Luise Gara, mastering by Jake Korski. Mia 403 00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: LaBelle is our executive producer. Additional thanks to Jesse de 404 00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 1: Bartelomeo and Emily Horner, formerly of Injustice Watch and now 405 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:57,756 Speaker 1: at the Chicago Tribune for her reporting on Ronnie's case. 406 00:26:59,716 --> 00:27:10,276 Speaker 1: I'm Jake Halpern. Deep Cover is a production of Pushkin Industries. 407 00:27:10,836 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: For ad free listening and early access to upcoming seasons 408 00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:18,276 Speaker 1: of deep Cover, consider becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. You 409 00:27:18,316 --> 00:27:21,276 Speaker 1: can find Pushkin Plus on the deep Cover show page 410 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:27,356 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.