1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today has a 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Michigan, but 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: hasn't practiced in over twenty years. As is often the case, 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: life had other plans for Christopher Rothcoe. Today he is 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: the driving force behind preserving the work and legacy of 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: his father, painter Mark Rothko. Christopher Rothko, along with his 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: sister Kate, are the copyright holders to their father's work 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: and oversee exhibitions of Mark Rothko's paintings all over the world. 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: It's a job Taylor made for the Rothkoe family, but 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: it was not the path that Christopher Rothko saw for 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: himself until later in life. 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 2: My intention was to live my own life and independent 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: of the artwork, not by any means arm's length. But 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: I had some administrative duties, but it was my intention 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: to have my own career and that was something to 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 2: be very much apart from them. 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: The artworks in clinical psychology. 19 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: In clinical psychology, before that, I was going to be 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: a musicologist. I kept trying on different hats and then 21 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: in the end the Rothco had is the one that fit, 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: and it kind of snuck up on me. I don't 23 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: think I would have done this if I didn't have 24 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: my own practice and hadn't gotten my degree. I'd gone 25 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: out there, I'd done what I intended to do, and 26 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 2: then I found that the artwork appealed more. 27 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 3: And that's okay. 28 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: Was there a moment, Was there a clarifying moment for 29 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: you where all of a suddenly you were said, I'm 30 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: going to go do this now? 31 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: No, I think it was cumulative. But there were a 32 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: series of exhibitions happening, mostly in Europe in the late 33 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,639 Speaker 2: nineties and early two thousands, and typically done by younger 34 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: curators who hadn't worked with my father's work before. And 35 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: my phone just kept bringing and they had questions for me, 36 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: and to my surprise, I actually knew the answers to 37 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: the questions and answer to the question. And they invited 38 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: me to help light and hang the works, which again 39 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: I found that I had more to contribute than I realized, 40 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: and I really enjoyed it, and I felt like I 41 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: had a kind of a knack for it, and I 42 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: really just voted with my feet. I kept taking on 43 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: more and more of those projects, and I stopped taking 44 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: on new patients and eventually especially involved with a move 45 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: back to New York City where I was going to 46 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: have to get relicensed and there was could be a 47 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 2: real process to rebuilding my practice. It just made a 48 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 2: lot of sense to do Rothko. But if there hadn't 49 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: been the passion there, I wouldn't have done it. I 50 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: would have proceeded with the psychology. 51 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: Now, talk about your psychology career. When your father was 52 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: gone and then your mother was gone months later. 53 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: Correct, that's right. You were raised and ann Arbor. Correct. 54 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: No, in actually Columbus, Ohio, the enemy territory for people 55 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: from at Harbor. My mother's sister lived in Columbus, and 56 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: I lived with her and her husband during elementary school 57 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: and into junior high. 58 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: And what was it in your background that invited you 59 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: to study clinical psychology? 60 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: You know, it's I just found that always the way 61 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: that I looked at the world. I was a literature 62 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: major in college. I always was fascinated with deeply psychological literature. 63 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 3: I wrote a. 64 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: Huge paper on Moby Dick and another one on a 65 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: couple of different Doscasci novels. And I've always been fascinated 66 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: by how people tick and what are motivations? Are the 67 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: ones that we maybe aren't so conscious of until they 68 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: sort of keep up on us and bite us in 69 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: the ass. 70 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: And where did you go undergrad? 71 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: I was a Yale undergraduate and then at Michigan, if 72 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: that's the anobrapy s. 73 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: I was at Michigan or graduate school. 74 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: For graduate school in clinical psychology. 75 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: And that's right right. 76 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: I only asked people where they went to college, not 77 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: with an eye toward prestige, but more toward climate. You know, 78 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: when I learned the number of people that went to 79 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: Bennington College, I'm like, oh my god, they all went 80 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: up there and froze to deaf. So you studied clinical 81 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: psychology and to the best of your ability, without you know, 82 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: violating anything. What kind of work did you do, Like 83 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: you saw patients, your your patients, you interacted with them 84 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: on a whole breadth of topics and problems and so forth. 85 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: Or did you focus on. 86 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: Something well, well, yes, and especially when you're first starting out, 87 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: you can't be so selective about what you do if 88 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: you want to have patients. So the distinction you're making 89 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: between psychiatrists who can prescribe in psychologists who who don't 90 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: of course, the insurance companies like the psychiatrists a lot 91 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: more because it's you know, it's expensive. Those medications are 92 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: there still cheaper than paying for an hour our psychotherapy. 93 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: Psychologists have actually gotten a little bit of the squeeze 94 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: over the last few decades because of that. But yes, 95 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: I did a full range, always adult, an adolescent. I'd 96 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: done a training with adolescents and what's called a day hospital, 97 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: a partial hospitalization program, and I found if you work 98 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: with adolescents you get a lot of referrals because adolescents 99 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: are tough. It's really rewarding because they are still so 100 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: capable of making change and everything is so raw. But 101 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: you know, most of them don't want to talk to 102 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: you know. I was, I think twenty eight years old 103 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: when I saw my first adolescent, and the first thing 104 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: they said was could I see somebody younger? So, you know, 105 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: if you're the other and they're not there because they 106 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: wanted to be there, there because somebody made them go. 107 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: So you eventually wound up working with a lot of kids. 108 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: I did. 109 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: I ended up working with a lot of adolescents, never 110 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: young kids. Except for a very brief moment in my 111 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: training during what period of time, what years it would 112 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: have been, like ninety six to ninety nine. 113 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: Right, because I was wondering how much children in the 114 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: analytical field are changing and how different they are because 115 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: of devices, paths. And my kids are in a private 116 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: school because they were in a full language immersion program. 117 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: But I didn't have any problem with them going to 118 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: public school. In fact, down the street from where we 119 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: live in the city is a great public school, but 120 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: we wanted to go to this particular school. And I'm 121 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: steeped in parents not just in our school but elsewhere where. 122 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: They give the kids the meds, even if it's reluctant, 123 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: they give them to them early. I mean, these kids 124 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: are on ADHD medication when they're you know, seven, eight 125 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: years old, and I'm like, I mean that was just 126 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: not a part of the landscape when I was a 127 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: kid at all. 128 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's absolutely psychiatric medications have changed things. And 129 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: of course, as you alluded to, having phones in their 130 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: hands and a really young age really changes things. 131 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: And maybe maybe those two things go together. 132 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: Right, they need psychiatric meds because they have so much 133 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: of a stimulation from those phones. Some day one we're 134 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: starting to see some studies now about how damaging that 135 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: can be, especially for younger kids. 136 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: Well, I find also that I mean, yes, I would 137 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: blame devices maybe, and there's obviously a linkage between devices 138 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: in this, but I would also think to myself that 139 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: I'm just horrified about how their face is ground into 140 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,799 Speaker 1: the news and events and the darkness of the world. 141 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: The world is an unsafe place, and they know that 142 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: there's no we don't really prioritize making them believe that 143 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: they're in a safe world. They walk out into the 144 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: world as a young kid, unshielded, you know, Yeah. 145 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: My version of theirs. 146 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: We moved back to New York in the year two 147 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: thousand from Michigan, right, and nine to eleven happened thirteen 148 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: months after we got here, and we knew lots of 149 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 2: parents who were like sitting there watching the news with 150 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 2: their kids, you know, their four year olds, their two 151 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: year olds watching with them, and we really just kept 152 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: it off. We thought, like, they don't need to see 153 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 2: these pictures. They're going to learn about it, they're going 154 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: to hear about it. Eventually, they'll see the pictures, but 155 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: they don't need to see that. 156 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: Now as your wife, you're married. 157 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: I think so, right, I was this morning. 158 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: Right right, exactly, that's I'm going to use that. Your wife, 159 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: where's she from? 160 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 3: Originally she's originally from Long Island. 161 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: What town Comack? I know, Comac Rosie o'donald coming. 162 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, actually she knew it was the Donald growing up. 163 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,239 Speaker 3: That's funny. Yeah, she's an attorney. Aha. 164 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: Now I guess what I come back to, And if 165 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: and if you don't want to answer this question, I'm 166 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: completely fine. So your father passed when he was you 167 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: were six, So you so your father dies and kills himself, 168 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: as everybody knows, and then your mother, who was not 169 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: as healthy as one might hope. She was an alcoholic. 170 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: So you're left with the mother at home. And I'm 171 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: even assuming when you were a child, even younger, if 172 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: you can recall that, was your father gone all day 173 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: in a studio. 174 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he kept kind of bankers hours. I mean 175 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: he was gone all day, but he was home in 176 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: the evenings for dinner. I mean he really was not 177 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: like down at the Cedar dark bar with public and 178 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: decoting and all those guys like tanking away all night. 179 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: Peter Taffert. Yeah, yeah, but he was around on a 180 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: reliable basis. But was your childhood something that might have 181 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: propelled you into the first stage of your work. 182 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: You know, I do I do get asked that. The 183 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: answer is yes, I don't have any direct experience of that. 184 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: You know, I was always a pretty happy kid, and 185 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: those you know, years five and six were pretty bad. 186 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: They were really difficult, and my parents both both my 187 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: parents were not in good shape, but my sister looked 188 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: out for me a lot, and my mother, you know, 189 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: she was not in good shape, but she was still 190 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: very much a functional malfunction. 191 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 192 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: So I don't know how that launched me on my 193 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: current trajectory. But my sense is because I think my 194 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: father also looked at the world quite psychologically. My senses 195 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: that I got that from him, and it wasn't my 196 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: trying to find answers desperately having had this terrible period 197 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: in my childhood. 198 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: Where'd your dad grow up? 199 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: He well, he was born in what's today Latvia. 200 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I think he thought of it as Russian Empire, 201 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: had been for a couple hundred years, and they moved 202 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: to Portland, Oregon when he was ten years old, where 203 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: my daughter. 204 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: Lost, oh different place in those days. 205 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: When did he come to her? 206 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: So he got a scholarship to Tale when he was eighteen, 207 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: and he lasted there a couple of years, lost his scholarship. 208 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: They had a very Yale would go back and forth 209 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: between welcoming Jews and saying we have too many Yes, 210 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: So his scholarship got taken away after his freshman year. 211 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 2: He toughed it out for another year and then he 212 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 2: just left and he went to New York and just 213 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 2: as he put it, bummed around and starved a bit. 214 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: So he went to Yale and studied painting. Was he somebody? 215 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: Is that what he studied there? No, not at all. 216 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: He really had no contact with it. I mean some 217 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: some exposure to the arts, but no, he hadn't taken 218 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: art classes, didn't take any. He was studying economics, in history, 219 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 2: in math at Yale and he came to New York 220 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: and he actually got involved in theater. He actually got 221 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: involved in theater, but not on a professional level, although 222 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: he did do some I think paid summerstock. He told 223 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 2: the story for years and we thought it was just 224 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 2: him bsing, but he said that he had been in 225 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: a play and that Clark Gable had been his understudy. 226 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 3: And isn't it isn't that isn't that funny? 227 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: But in fact, that's the funniest thing I've ever But 228 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: in fact we found the program and there he is 229 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 2: listed in the lead role, and Clark Gable is like 230 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: well down and apparently was he it was had a 231 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: much more minerral but was also my father's understudy. 232 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: Kid. No, so it's really chewed out the story. 233 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: My father's story in this we have no way of confirming, 234 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 2: is that Clark Gable only got a part because his 235 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 2: girlfriend was the director. But in any case, so that 236 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 2: but my father had no contact with art until a 237 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: friend invited him to the Art Students League to a 238 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: drawing class one day, just kind of on to lark. 239 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: My father went and he fell in love with it, 240 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: and oh my god. But it was largely self taught, 241 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: just took a couple of courses there and was largely 242 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: self taught and doing this evenings and weekends because he 243 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,599 Speaker 2: had to work odd jobs and had he had to 244 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: pay the rent, which occasionally he did so, so. 245 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: You guys weren't alive then, No, no, no, no, this 246 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 3: is this is your mother as in the theater. 247 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: No, my mother was an artist too. My mother was 248 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 2: a graphic artist and they got introduced by a mutual friend. 249 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: Now, your father goes to the Art Students League. I 250 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: find that intriguing because I have a few friends of 251 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: mine who passed through there and it was maybe not 252 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: where they landed as a career, but they recall it 253 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: as one of the most beautiful times of their life 254 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: being able to go there. And your dad was how 255 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: old when you were born? Almost sixty? Wow, we could 256 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: have been great. And he was famous and I low 257 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: that word, but he was famous and successful. How long 258 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: before you were born? You were born into a roth 259 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: go the Rothko that was your father was successful. 260 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but my sister was not. My sister's thirteen 261 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: years older than me, and she was born in nineteen fifty. 262 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: And that's just the moment he starts getting discovered along 263 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: with the other New York artists, new York School artists, 264 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: I should say. But you know, even though he got 265 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: discovered at that point and he starts having some exhibitions, 266 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: he can't support himself just painting until about the time 267 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: I'm born shortly before that. So it's you know, it's 268 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: still is a long, long, hard slug. And you know 269 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: he was born in nineteen oh three, so it's really 270 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: he's almost fifty years old before he gets recognition and 271 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: almost sixty before he really can just just be an artist. 272 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: Now, your father passed away and you were six, so 273 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: many years go by before you're doing these installations and 274 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: things like that was your entree into that world. That's right, 275 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: and you're lighting and installing and so forth. The current 276 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: position you hold is what is your title? 277 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: I don't have a title. I'm self employed as i'm 278 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 3: mart those. I'm an occasional curator. 279 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: But you know, for me, it's been the collaboration work 280 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: with professionals in the field, with you know, just really 281 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 2: brilliant people who have completely different viewpoints about my father's work. 282 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 2: That's been incredibly satisfying to have those kind of interactions. 283 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: It's also given me an opportunity to write a lot. 284 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 2: I went into college thinking I was going to emerge 285 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: a writers. Somehow I didn't. But I've written as a 286 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: music critic and other things over the years. But this 287 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: really got me a chance to be an essays and 288 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: I've written now twenty some essays on my father's art 289 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: and related topics. And I lecture a good deal too, 290 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: which you know, if you'd asked me twenty years ago, 291 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,599 Speaker 2: would I enjoy that? I'd tell you no, no, I 292 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: really I don't like the public landlight. But in fact 293 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: it's been great. 294 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: I see this bibliography of things related to you and 295 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,599 Speaker 1: your father. I want to get to the chapel for 296 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: a moment, because I mean I live in East Tampton, 297 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: Long Island and Amagansett, and the Demon Hills were a 298 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: big presence out there. The Demon Hills donated the structures 299 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: on their property that was sold. They sold their private 300 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 1: land of fifty eight or so in front acres to 301 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: two people. They built two houses on fifty acres, and 302 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: the houses are not really compatible because they skin them alive. 303 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: I mean, they just all the trees are gone, all 304 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: the growth has gone, and you see this soaring or 305 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: this looming pathway down to these houses toward the ocean. 306 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: But the Demonills sold their property and they took the 307 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: structures on the property and donated them and the money 308 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: to restore them to become town hall of the town 309 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: of Eastampa brother not the village. And I mentioned that 310 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: only because you know, I mean, everybody knew the Demonills 311 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: out there and so forth. So the chapel, it was 312 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: their idea. That's why it's in Houston. How did your 313 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: father end up or this thing end up in Houston. 314 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: This was after he passed away. 315 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: No, no, well he was alive. No, well before he 316 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 3: passes by. Okay. 317 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: So they had known my father for a number of years. 318 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: They were instrumental in getting him one of his early 319 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: big shows, which is at the Contemporary Art Museum in 320 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: Houston in nineteen fifty seven. They've been collecting his work 321 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: for a number of years. And then it was really 322 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: Jean Demonil had the idea to make a chapel. They 323 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: were deeply, deeply religious people, spiritual Catholics, and they were 324 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: collecting a broad range of art, particularly contemporary art, and 325 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: he had an idea to create a chapel and a 326 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: quiet place for reflection and one that would speak to 327 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: the believer or the non believer with a different voice. 328 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 2: So not one that's going to be filled with the 329 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: crucifixes and PTRs, but in fact use contemporary art to 330 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: engage the seekers. Really, and they thought that that sort 331 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: of modern language of art would connect with a modern 332 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: generation in a way that older churches were not. 333 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 3: So they immediately thought about my father. 334 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: They knew about the mural series he'd done for the 335 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: Four Seasons restaurant, which he had withdrawn. They thought about 336 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: those works, they approached him and he said, no, no, no, 337 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: I want to do something from scratch. I want to 338 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: do something that's specific to this idea, specific to this place, 339 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: and in fact, I want to design the space as well, 340 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: says in nineteen sixty four, and he basically put everything 341 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: else aside for the next three years to create not 342 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: just the paintings, but the whole interior of that space. 343 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 3: It's really one artwork. 344 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: Remind people, by the way, what the Four Seasons restaurant 345 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: Brolio was about. 346 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: So he was hired to decorate a private dining room 347 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: at the Four Seasons Restaurant by by Philip Johnson, the 348 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: famous architect. To my father, it was not a decoration job. 349 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: It was he was going to create a temple basically 350 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: inside this restaurant. And over courts of a couple of years, 351 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: there are different visions for what that was going to 352 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: be clashed too much, and my father realized he's never 353 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: going to make artwork that anyone's going to look at seriously. 354 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 2: When they're cutting private deals. The wine is flowing, you know, 355 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: there's you know, the most expensive food in New York 356 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: in front of them. 357 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 3: They're not going to look at his art work. 358 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: So he eventually withdraws from that from that commission, having 359 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: painted like five times more paintings than he needed to 360 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: for the commission. But he got completely caught up in 361 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: the whole idea. What happen of the pain Did he 362 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: destroy them? 363 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 3: No? No, no, he never destroyed anything. No, never destroy anything. 364 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: From the earliest works from that, we have hundreds of 365 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: sheets of you know, sometimes just doodles, but little line 366 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: drawings and things. Never destroyed anything, and continued to hang 367 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: some of his early work at home. So it's home 368 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: was at East ninety sixth Street, or that was the 369 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: home I knew. My sister grew up in house kitchen, 370 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: and the studio was where well, the last studio again, 371 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: which was rented for that chapel commission, because he wanted 372 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: to be able to mock up three walls of this 373 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: chapel was a carriage house in East sixty ninth Street. 374 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: Did d Minills gift him that, well, they rented it 375 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: for him and then and then he maintained he took 376 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: it over in the three years that he was still painting. 377 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: After the commission was done, he took over the rented 378 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 2: that and stayed in that studio because he just found 379 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: it such an inspiring space. 380 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: Rothcoe Foundation Conservator Christopher Rothcoe. If you enjoyed conversations with 381 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: the families of legendary artists, check out my episode with 382 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: the children of Leonard Bernstein, Jamie and Alex Bernstein. 383 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 4: There was this aunt Clara who moved to Florida, and 384 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 4: so she sent all her furniture over to her brother 385 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 4: Sam's house, and along with all the couches and breakfronts, 386 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 4: arrived this upright piano. Our dad was ten years old. 387 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 4: The piano got hauled in to the house, and as 388 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 4: our father told it, he touched the piano and that 389 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 4: was it. He knew it's one of those stories, and 390 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 4: he taught himself theory. He just played the piano. 391 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: He could figure it all out. To hear more of 392 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: my conversation with Jamie and Alex Bernstein, go to Here's 393 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. After the break, Christopher Rothcobe reveals 394 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: what his father would have thought of the current price 395 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: tag on his paintings and the commodification of art today. 396 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the thing. In 397 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: March of twenty ten, playwright John Logan's Red made its 398 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: Broadway debut after opening in London the year before. Red 399 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: tells the story of the Rothcombe Murals that the painter 400 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: was commissioned to create for the world famous Four Seasons 401 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: restaurant and his ultimate decision to walk away. I wanted 402 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: to know what Christopher Rothkoe thought of the depiction of 403 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: his father in the show. 404 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: There are a lot of very compelling things about read, 405 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: but it's not truly truly a biographical work. The two 406 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: things that are not true about his first the assistant, 407 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: who is his foil? And all of this is and 408 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: he really bullies throughout most of the play. It didn't 409 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 2: really exist. And my father was certainly highly opinionated about art. 410 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: It was very passionate at art, and I think it's 411 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: great ninety minute play, really about a philosophy of art 412 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: and a philosophy of life. But he would not have 413 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: I don't think he would have beaten up on his 414 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: assistant for an hour and a half. 415 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 3: He wasn't rude, no, no, he was. 416 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: He was actually quite caring. He was a big, big 417 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: hearted man. I think you can see that in the 418 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: art work. But you know that said we get together 419 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: with his artist buddies and they would certainly debate into 420 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: the night. You know, they're different ideas of what's important 421 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: artwork and what is the role of the artists, and 422 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: you know, and especially when he's younger, a lot of 423 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: a lot of political ideas as well. 424 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: So well, I think it's interesting to me that someone 425 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: for dramatic effect, obviously they create a character. I mean, 426 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: I'm glad to know that. 427 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 3: I didn't know that. 428 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: I thought there was some guy walking around New York. 429 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: They talked him to himself for twenty years after your 430 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: father was gone, So damage from that whole relationship. But 431 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: the other thing is this idea of money and wealth 432 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: and paintings. Your father he hated that the speculative market 433 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: and painting which we have, which is Waltwall Now, he 434 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: was a really down on that. 435 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: I mean, he was adamant that an artist should be 436 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: well paid, that they should be able to support themselves 437 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: to their livelihood. He was very pleased when he had 438 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 2: some success, and he he would sometimes self from a 439 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 2: studio and he would you insist on getting what he 440 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: felt he should get for his paintings. That said, when 441 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: it became a commodity, it really started to bother him. 442 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: And if he saw it today, you know, with investment 443 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 2: groups buying his paintings rather than people who love the paintings, oh, 444 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: he would be he would be devastated. 445 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: I was often said. I thought that was a term 446 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: as to where the painter their estates should be paid 447 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: for every transaction of the painting. If you take a 448 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: painting and you buy it for four million dollars sold 449 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: for twenty million dollars ten years later, you've got to 450 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: kick back some. 451 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: Big on that to the estate. So there actually is 452 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 3: a term for that. 453 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 2: As a French chirwan, it's called the delt de suite, 454 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: which means you basically, it's the right of what follows. 455 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: So in France it's and much of the European unions 456 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: it's ten percent. Yeah, and the Artist Right Society, who 457 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: works with our estate but many others as well, has 458 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: been pushing for years to try and have something similar 459 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: in the US. But America is you know, America is 460 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,959 Speaker 2: about the art of the deal, right, the businessman who 461 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 2: makes a clever purchase. 462 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 3: And I don't think we're going to see that for 463 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: a while. 464 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Now, one would imagine from a layman's perspective that it's 465 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: easier to knock off a wroth Code because it's the 466 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: classic frame and two bands of color or three bit 467 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: or a box. It's it's his interaction of color. And 468 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: I think to myself, it's much easier to knock off 469 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: wroth code than these much more complex, detailed, intricate figures. 470 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: And then I thought to myself, is it the opposite 471 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: within in the modern world, because of all the resources 472 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: that are available to do, is how have you dealt 473 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: with in your career with this now that you're in charge, 474 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: so to speak, knockoffs of your father's paintings. 475 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 2: Well, so I think there there's a certain format that's 476 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: familiar and people sort of recognized, oh, that's a Rothco 477 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 2: or it's Rothcoe, like we see them knocked off in 478 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: advertisements all the time. But what's hard to do is 479 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: create the magic. And you know, there's nowhere to hide 480 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 2: if you make a mistake, there's nowhere for it to hide. 481 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: You have to be pretty good to make something really 482 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: wonderful happen from those very simple elements. But in fact, yes, 483 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: we we and this is not the ory. We this 484 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: is my sister and me because we're the co copyright holders. 485 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: You know, we've had to deal with this over the years. 486 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 2: We know that my father was really protective of his art. 487 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: He really wanted to see only be seen in the 488 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: best circumstances and really in situations, particularly museums, where people 489 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: could go and appreciate it and really have, you know, 490 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: commune with the painting if you will. So the very 491 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: you know, the very idea that it's used in advertising, 492 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: for example, was something that he would not be happy about. 493 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: So you know, when we do see that, we use 494 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: our copyright agency. We try to get the ads taken down. 495 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's successful, sometimes it's not, but you know, for 496 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: us it's and I really have really learned this from 497 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: doing big exhibitions the work. When it works, it's so 498 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: much an experience. It's so much that interaction between the 499 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 2: viewer and the painting that we try to limit how 500 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: many other ways there are to see the paintings or 501 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: things that are. 502 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: Like roth Goes. They wanted people to really have that 503 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 3: face to face interaction. 504 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: Where's the location around the world, in the US and 505 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: in New York Literally, I want to ask all three 506 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: that hangs the most of your father's art. 507 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 2: Well, the National Gallery of Art in Washington would they 508 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: were the recipients of my father's foundation. That's a complex story, 509 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: but let's just leave it at that. And so they 510 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: have a dedicated Rothko room on the top floor of 511 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 2: one of the towers of the Impay Building, and they 512 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 2: often have roth Goes dotted elsewhere in their collection. They're 513 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: also incredibly generous alone in their works to Rothco exhibitions elsewhere, but. 514 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 3: They consistently have a room. 515 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 2: MoMA has for the last five years had a room 516 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: up They have I think ten roth Goes on canvas 517 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: plus more on paper. And the Metropolitan has also hung 518 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 2: room off and on for the last several years. But 519 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: they're major Rothko holdings in Los Angeles at the Houston Houston, 520 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: at the Menil Collection. Of course, the Rothko Chapel is 521 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: its own artwork, but La Mocha has a fabulous collection 522 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: of Rothko's. A Museum of the Artistitute of Chicago has 523 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 2: three major Rothkoes, so they're dotted around this country. And 524 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: then the Tate Gallery in London they have a set 525 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: of those murals that my father painted for the Four Seasons, 526 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: as well as three other wonderful painters. 527 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: And one your father painted for the Four Seasons are 528 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: on display at the Tate. 529 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: They have nine of the thirty three, so he put 530 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 2: together the others. He put together a group and gifted 531 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: them to the Tates in nineteen seventy because he had 532 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: such good interactions with them and with the British public 533 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: around his artwork. So they've had that Rothko room basically 534 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: on a more or less permanent display for the last 535 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: fifty years. And then there's another group in Japan at 536 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 2: the calm War Museum, a group of seven that was 537 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 2: a group that my sister and I put together and 538 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: they've created a dedicated room, and the others are at 539 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: the National Gallery and a few in private collections. 540 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: What's a book you would recommend which I'm going to 541 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: run out the door and go buy it right now, 542 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: that shows this field of paintings of your father's. If 543 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: I want to see in a book what the Four 544 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: Seasons paintings were, what they look like, because I've never 545 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,959 Speaker 1: seen them, I don't think. What do you think as 546 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: a book? That's a great book in terms of displaying 547 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: a sampling of your father's work. 548 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: Well, my sister and I put together the most comprehensive 549 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: book that's ever ever been done a few years ago. 550 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: It's a resolute published it's just a public publishist in 551 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: two thousand and twenty three, I believe it was, and 552 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: it's a large slipcase volume. It's just called Mark Rothko 553 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: and Rizzoli is a publisher, and I think there are 554 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: are two hundred and forty works. That's both paintings and 555 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: on paper. And then the Rothki Catalog reson of paintings 556 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: of just the paintings on canvas. It's over eight hundred 557 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: works and that's still in print, and that's a Yale University. 558 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 2: So both of those are going to get you more 559 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 2: enough Rothkie for a lifetime. 560 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: Enough bang for the buck there. I think it's interesting 561 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: that you say it's a strong presence of this stuff 562 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: in Japan. I'm wondering, does your father's work this is 563 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: a glib word, but does it play better in certain 564 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: parts of the world than others? Absolutely absolutely did the 565 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: Japanese love his work. They were early collectors of his work. 566 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: There are major paintings in multiple collections around Japan, both 567 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: private and public, and they have this Miural Room, and 568 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: there's going to be There was a really good show 569 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: in ninety six there, and we're going to do another 570 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: show in twenty twenty eight. That is not my show, 571 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: but working with a dear friend of mine who's a 572 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: fabulous curator, Sorommi Hayashi, and she has a fabulous team. 573 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: This could be shown at multiple locations around Japan and 574 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight. Now, you mentioned something about the gestalt 575 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: of your father's paintings. You approached it that way. I think, 576 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: what did you mean by that? 577 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting In the course of doing this 578 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: exhibition in Paris that was last year and which had 579 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: I think eight hundred and fifty thousand. 580 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 3: Visitors, which was remarkable. 581 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 2: But I did a lot of tours during that time 582 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: and somebody actually pulled me aside at one point we 583 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: say and said to me, you know, I noticed you 584 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: never get up close to the paintings. You're never like 585 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: looking at the details. You're always standing back. And it's true, 586 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: and I do that with my father's work. I do 587 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 2: that with other work as well, but especially my father's. 588 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: There are a lot of details. 589 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: There are a lot more details than people would think 590 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 2: in these big, broad, abstract works, but in fact it's 591 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: all additive. It's all these different layers of color. There's 592 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: a summation and sort of one feeling that you get 593 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: from the painting. And so while it's interesting to see 594 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: how it's made, I think the idea is to have 595 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: a conversation with the painting. Through that painting, have a 596 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: conversation with my father about what's important in the world, 597 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: what's our common human experience, Where are you at psychologically 598 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: right now? And you don't get that from looking at oh, 599 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: there's a little hint of white coming out here. You 600 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: get that from actually taking in the whole painting. And 601 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: it's almost a full body experience it really, it's beyond 602 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: just the sensation of looking when I go. 603 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: To museums and I want to look at art, and 604 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: of course art for me is as much as paintings, 605 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: and on an even keel with paintings is film and photography. 606 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: I went to the Prato once because I was there 607 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: making a film and I was off this day, and 608 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: I realized I couldn't devour it in a day or 609 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: a week, but I spent two days and I walked 610 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: one section of it, and then I finally get to 611 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: what I'm after, which is the Velasquez christ that's at 612 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: the Prado, and I finally confronted towards the end of 613 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: the second day. It's kind of at the buzzer here 614 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: I find the painting and I'm standing there. I mean, 615 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: the tears just start rolling down my face. 616 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 3: I mean, this is my this is my Jesus, you 617 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 3: know what I mean. 618 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: What I learned at that trip to the Prado in 619 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: those two days was you have to drain yourself and 620 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: you have to really really do the concentrated relaxation that 621 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: is the hallmark of Strasburg's teaching about acting. You must 622 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: empty yourself and just be present and just keep your 623 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: focus on yourself. And the same I found was seeing 624 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: and experiencing painting. I had to go and really really be, 625 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: turn my phone off and just to have everything happen. 626 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 3: You know, when it was there. I get exhausted. 627 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: In museums, like after a couple of hours, it is 628 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: draining because if you're really having those intense interactions, it 629 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: pulls a lot out of you. That is arguably my 630 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: favorite museum in the world, the Proudu, and it just 631 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: I'm incredulous. 632 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: My father never saw it. I mean it was it 633 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 3: was all Franco controlled all through his adulthood. And he 634 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 3: never never went. 635 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: And I mean he saw great alpgrad coach in Velascz 636 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: in New York, but he never saw the whole suite 637 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: that they had at the Prado, along with you know, 638 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: the Broigels and the Bosches and the Goyas and the Yeah, 639 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: it's pretty, it's. 640 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: Pretty incredible place. 641 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: Was he much of a traveler, No, hated to travel, 642 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: didn't want to leave the studio, so didn't want to 643 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 2: leave the studio, would not fly. So all he went 644 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 2: three trips to Europe, all by boat and almost exclusively 645 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 2: in Italy. So I have an upcoming exhibition, last one 646 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to do in Fernanzi in Florence. Not so 647 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: we've we've this, this show has almost happened. A show 648 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: contemporary ardor now for the not in their own, not 649 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: in their collection. Occasionally they'll do, you know, comparisons, or 650 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: they'll do they'll do discussions between contemporary and older art. 651 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: But it's complicated working in Italy because all the museums 652 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: are controlled by the municipalities and the government changes, which 653 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: it does frequent. 654 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 3: Then your exhibition is paused, discarded, what have you. 655 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: So this is our third go of it, but we're 656 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: working with a private foundation this time, so I'm pretty 657 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: confident it's going to come off next year or at 658 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: a year and a half. 659 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 3: But that was my father. 660 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: My father was just basically in a lifelong wrestling match 661 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: with all those Italian Renaissance artists, loving so much of 662 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: what they did, questioning a lot of what they did, 663 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 2: and really just seeing artists who were asking the same 664 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: kind of questions that he was, and fascinated by their 665 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: attempts to answer them and not always thinking that they 666 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: got it right. 667 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 3: But he loved going. 668 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you'd spend eight or ten hours a day 669 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: in churches and museums in Italy and just take it 670 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: all in and just sort of put himself in their 671 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: shoes and look at each of these paintings or altarpieces 672 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: or frescoes or whatever it was, and try to imagine 673 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: what is he trying to say in that, How is 674 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: he trying to achieve it? What am I trying to 675 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: do in my own painting that's similar and different? 676 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: Was your father a fan of other painters? 677 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 3: Oh? 678 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, there were many artists that he just worshiped Turner 679 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: primary Rembrandt. Also loved Turner and Rembrandt and Matis for 680 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: amongst more modern voices. So Matisa's famous red studio painting, 681 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: there's been there was a show at a moment few 682 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: years ago. It's now traveled to France. That painting came 683 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: to MoMA in the nineteen forties and my father went 684 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: there to look at it every single day for six months, 685 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: and he was just overwhelmed by the idea that you 686 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: could basically take a canvas and just make it just 687 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: covered in a color. And yes there are a few 688 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: details around the canvas, but you're just overwhelmed by the 689 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: redness the red studio Matis Matis. He loved Matis. He 690 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: loved both the simplicity but also the boldness to just 691 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: say what he wanted to say very directly, and not 692 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 2: to decorate the painting with things that were not necessarily 693 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: only put in exactly what he needed. 694 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: Was he a fan of any contemporary artists? 695 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: I mean Matisa was contemporary. Matist dies not that long 696 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: before my father does, so, I mean he had a 697 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: very long life and my father did not. But I 698 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 2: mean he certainly not only looked at, but actually helped 699 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: promote some of the work of his contemporaries in the 700 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: New York school. Clifford Still, who was a few years 701 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: is older, he got him his first show at Peggy 702 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: Guggenheim's Art of the Century Gallery and actually curated that 703 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: and hung it himself. He I think was more than 704 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 2: respectful of the other artists in that school, but he 705 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: didn't hang. 706 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: Out with them at Somehowgonquin Roundtable of artists. 707 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: Of Continers Well, I mean they had their own little, 708 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 2: more private roundtable that He and Barnett Newman and Af 709 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 2: Gottlieb were particularly a trio, and they wrote little manifestos together. 710 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 3: But they talked out art a lot, and eventually that 711 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 3: broke down. 712 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: But he was friendly with Franz Klein, he was friendly 713 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: with Mother Well, and he certainly knew Paulack and Decooning 714 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: well too. 715 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: Christopher Rothko, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend 716 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: and they sure to follow. Here's the thing on the 717 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When 718 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: we come back, Christopher Rothkoe details how the Mark Rothkoe 719 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: estate was defrauded after his father's death and who stood 720 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: to profit. I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is here's the thing. 721 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: Before Christopher Rothko was traveling the world as the ambassador 722 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: of his father's legacy, he worked as a clinical psychologist. 723 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 3: He gave up his practice when he. 724 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: Moved to New York and began curating exhibits of his 725 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: father's work full time. I was curious if he missed 726 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: his previous career and whether he's ever considered returning to 727 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: that field of work. 728 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 3: You know, I missed it when it was at its best. 729 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: I worked at some clinics when I was in Michigan 730 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: that were just fabulous places where I could see people 731 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: at low feet and I saw a really broad spectrum 732 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: of people and could work with them multiple times a 733 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: week for extended periods of time. World of the HMO 734 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: came into being right around the time I got my degree, 735 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: and it really limited how much I could see patients 736 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: for how long And they sometimes come to me with 737 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: a diagnosis and a medication plan already, and what I 738 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: really could do with him was was very limited. So, 739 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: you know, there's been a lot of push and pulls 740 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: since then. But the freedom I had in those in 741 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: those early years. I think she has gone Yeah, I 742 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: think it's gone so. 743 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: Well that way, which and which you know, someone said 744 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: that to me. They said that some doctor I was 745 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: saying maybe said to me that it's all changed in 746 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: the sense that it's like you know, people lying sitting 747 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: in a chair, lying on a couch and talking. Those 748 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: days are over because it takes too long. You know, 749 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: that takes a long time. 750 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 3: Lock down. 751 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: It costs money, crazily expensive. I mean, insurance won't pay 752 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: for that. So either you're charging a lot of money 753 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 2: or you it's hard. You this in New York, But 754 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: in other places where maybe your rent's not so high, 755 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: you can have a sliding scale, which is what I 756 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: was able to do in ann Arbor. I was able 757 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: to see people at different levels of fees. But you know, 758 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: in New York, you're you're hoping that you cover your 759 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 2: rent after like three weeks of doing therapy. 760 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: What's next for you in terms of the you have 761 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: more books in you or do you have more you 762 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: wrote a memoir about growing up with. 763 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: Your father or no, no, I haven't ridden a memoir. 764 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: I've been actually urging my sister, who you knew HI 765 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: much better. She was nineteen when he died, so she 766 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: knew him much better. So we've been slowly she's she's 767 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: written a couple of biographical glass Hayes for catalogs, but 768 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 2: the family has been urging her to write her want 769 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: to you know, I think maybe she's slowly coming around. 770 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: You know, we both went off into our own professions. 771 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: She was a medical doctor, our psychologist or kind of 772 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: medicine to ship practice. Well she's retired now, but she 773 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: was a pathologist and really and then ended up being 774 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: a doctor who was doing blood chemistry. So yeah, so 775 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 2: she Yeah, she never really wanted the limelight. She does 776 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 2: two interviews, but she really wants to keep the focus 777 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: on our father. 778 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: We couldn't have done this without your sister as well, 779 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: obviously could because you wouldn't be here right now if 780 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: the two of you hadn't been doing this on a 781 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: collaborative level of maintaining this. 782 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 3: And one thing we didn't talk about all today, but 783 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: you know, the estate was defrauded. You were defrauded. How 784 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: this stay? 785 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 2: So, My father's is one of the first artists foundations, 786 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: and it was set up for him by his accountant 787 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: slash lawyer, who turns out was also the CFO of 788 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: his gallery, and really as soon as my father passed, 789 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 2: before my mother even passed away, they started passing all 790 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 2: the major works from the estate to the gallery for 791 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: sale had never yet to Marlborough Gallley, which had never 792 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 2: been never been the understanding they were supposed to. They 793 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: were supposed to take the work and place it in museums. 794 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: They were supposed to do charitable work on behalf of 795 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: older artists who had not had success. And my sister 796 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: started catching wind of this. She was nineteen years old 797 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 2: and asked. These were people she'd known for years, the 798 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: executors of the estates, And I said, what's going on? 799 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 2: And they were just completely dismissive of her. They just 800 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 2: assumed she was stupid and she would go away. And 801 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: the more dismissive they were, the more curious she got. 802 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 2: And she ended up getting a lawyer and it found 803 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: and it turns out that they were really defrauding the state. 804 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 2: They were selling them to Marlborough Gallley for next to nothing, 805 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: and Marlborough was turning around and selling them for eight 806 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: ten times the price. So it was an incredibly long 807 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: legal battle. We had very little money to fight it, 808 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: and they almost bled us dry. But after years and 809 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 2: years and years of court battle and documents back and forth, 810 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: I mean we have filebox after filebox of legal documents, 811 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 2: we actually we actually prevailed, and we prevailed through two appeals, 812 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 2: and we actually got back quite a few paintings and 813 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 2: some financial compensation for the one set that we couldn't 814 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 2: get back. 815 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 3: But it was really quite miraculous. 816 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 2: And my sister gave up, I mean really some of 817 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: the best years of her life, while somehow she did 818 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 2: this while she was in college and medical school, going 819 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: to med school, having got her her first two children. 820 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 2: She somehow managed her to do this. And I am forever. 821 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: I'm forever in her dath. 822 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 3: Others hears she will never lord that over me because 823 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 3: she is just a very generous soul. But she is 824 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 3: forever my hero. 825 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: Is there a documentary I can recommend when I want 826 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: to study a subject, I don't just neecessarily reflexively go 827 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: into the documentary boo, because so many of them are 828 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: just very tepid and very you know, not that special. 829 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: Is there one of your father that you think is 830 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: worth people watching to learn more about him? 831 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: There have been a bunch of documentaries I don't know 832 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 2: how many of them are readily available for streaming or 833 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 2: on DVD. But there was one that was done just 834 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 2: for the pandemic called Paintings Must Be Miraculous And it 835 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: was done actually by Oregon Public Broadcasting and then got 836 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: taken up by the PBS Masters series. 837 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: Oh, he was an American Masters. American Masters. 838 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 3: Wow. And yes, and well it's a well done film. Yeah, yeah, no, 839 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 3: it's just about him. 840 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: When can we expect the next major exhibition of your 841 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: father's work in New York? 842 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 3: So we're actually a little overdue for a New York show. 843 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 2: There's been so much activity around around the world that 844 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 2: we haven't really had a big New York show. There 845 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 2: was a fabulous exhibition of his paintings on paper this 846 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 2: past year that was in Washington, but then it traveled 847 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 2: overseas to Oslo. So we really overdue for a New 848 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 2: York show. And yeah, it's my sister and I've actually 849 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 2: talked to each other. It's time to start talking to 850 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 2: museums and find out what's the right moment, what's the 851 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: right location. But yeah, I think before the end of 852 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 2: the decade. It's been since nineteen ninety nine, and what. 853 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: You reveal from people who don't know as much as 854 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't know much about this. What you insinuate there 855 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: is that the key to these exhibition is you've got 856 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: to gather and glean everything together that you want from 857 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: around the world. You have to get them to give 858 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 1: you the paintings. Correct. 859 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean that was my big job with the 860 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 2: Paris Show. It's one hundred and fifteen works and they 861 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 2: all had to be they all had to be requested 862 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 2: and I mean timed. Yeah, and some of those were, 863 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: you know, immediate yeses, and others we went back three 864 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 2: or four times and then sometimes had to redirect. Yet, No, 865 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: it's especially you know, these are often large paintings and 866 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 2: very complex to ship, and people and institutions are reluctant 867 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 2: to let them go. 868 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: Are you perplexed by the prices that are attached to 869 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: your father's work? 870 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I'm perplexed by those prices. I'm perplexed by 871 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 2: a lot of prices in the. 872 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 3: Yeah. 873 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: And so I don't think you can really put a 874 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: price on great art. But I'm you know, I think 875 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 2: it's I'm glad that's something that is so valued, because 876 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 2: I think there's a whole lot of garbage out in 877 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 2: the world that people you know, spend crazy amounts of 878 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 2: money for, and you know, the idea of life the 879 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 2: art is it's forever on some level, hopefully it lasts forever, 880 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 2: but certain the feeling behind it is something that is, 881 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 2: you know, reaching back and looking forward, as opposed to 882 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: some piece of plastic that it catches your fancy and 883 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: you pay some crazy amount of money. 884 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: For what's the highest number of your father's paintings have 885 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: ever commanded? 886 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 2: He has been whispered to me about private sales that 887 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: are well in excess of this, but publicly, I think 888 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: ninety two million was the highest. Eying, Yeah, it's I mean, 889 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 2: he be scratching his head. I mean, I think after 890 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 2: a certain number well below that, it's kind of monopoly money. 891 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 2: And obviously it's a very limited group of people who 892 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 2: can afford that. 893 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: But hopefully he'd be scratching his head online at the 894 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: bank so he can do it head scratching there. Well, 895 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: was there anything you learned about your father surprised you 896 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: as you immersed yourself more in his work and. 897 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: His over I think the moment of discovery for me 898 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 2: came in two thousand and three, two thousand and four 899 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 2: when I edited his book of philosophical writings. He wrote 900 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: actually a relatively young man, before he had any recognition 901 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: as an artist, and I see him really churning through ideas, 902 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,399 Speaker 2: and I'm trying to get a hold of what he's 903 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 2: trying to say. He doesn't acknowledge at any point in 904 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: the book that he's an artist, doesn't have his he 905 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: never really sort of takes an eye position as an artist, 906 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 2: doesn't acknowledge. 907 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 3: That he paints. 908 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 2: But he's working through all of these questions, all of 909 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,479 Speaker 2: these questions, and I realize as I'm editing this book 910 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: that not only am I asking myself, as a non artist, 911 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 2: a lot of the same questions. These are questions about painting, 912 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 2: but there are also questions about how we see the world. 913 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 2: I ask myself these same questions. I also realize that 914 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 2: he and I write quite similarly, which actually, to my mind, 915 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 2: gave me license to edit the book because I felt 916 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 2: like I was editing with a similar voice. And in 917 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 2: the end, it was the conversation about art that we 918 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 2: never had. And you know what, I'm not sure even 919 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 2: if he had lived another twenty five years, maybe we 920 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 2: never would have had it either. And this was a 921 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 2: chance to really be sort of inside his head a 922 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: little bit and have that talk. 923 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,479 Speaker 3: I mean sometimes it actually stop and say, you know, Dad, 924 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 3: what the hell are you saying? 925 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 2: Trying to crack a nut that he had really, you know, 926 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: it was an unfinished manuscript, so he didn't some flesh 927 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 2: out the ideas sometimes and I had to do my 928 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 2: best tur into it that but it was fabulous because 929 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 2: I felt like it brought me closer to him in 930 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 2: this strange way posthumously, and it was really was really gift. 931 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: You know, when you see paintings that speak to you 932 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: this way, that pull you in in this way, you 933 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: just want to learn more and more about the artists, 934 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 1: you know. I wanted to learn everything I could about 935 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: Caravaggio when I would go to Italy and stay at 936 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: the Hostler and go down to the Pope below and 937 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: go into the cathedral. They are the little mini cathedral 938 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: and there are the two framing side to side Caravaggio 939 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: there in front of that, which they had to protect 940 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: with some It looks like a not really very sturdy 941 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: security system. I mean, somebody could go in there to 942 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: throw these people who want to kill art. What do 943 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: you think about these people that are throwing buckets of 944 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: soup and all kinds of organic matter on paintings and 945 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: protesting climate change for example. 946 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 2: Well, I'm all for protesting climate change. I wish they 947 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 2: would find other ways to protest it. I mean, you know, 948 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 2: I think they're targeting artwork because they see these as 949 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 2: icons and trophies. But in fact, the artists who made these, 950 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 2: in almost every case struggled their whole life to try 951 00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 2: and get their message across and get it before the public. 952 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 2: So it's I think they choose a very unfortunate target. 953 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 2: And uh, yeah, you know, I am all for making 954 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 2: a lot of noise about climate change. It's it's something 955 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 2: I'm passionate about. But please don't go into a museum 956 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 2: and damage something that belongs to all of us. It's there, 957 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: it's there for. 958 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 3: All of us. 959 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: My thanks to Christopher Rothkoe. This episode was recorded at 960 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, 961 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: Zach MacNeice, and Victoria De Martin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 962 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the thing 963 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: is brought to you by iHeart Radio