Speaker 1: Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Joining Me Now is an exceptionally talented man
Speaker 1: that I am so grateful to also call my friend.
Speaker 1: While we definitely connected during our time together on the
Speaker 1: Mass Singer, we actually go back a lot further. We
Speaker 1: sang a duet together on my Today Is Christmas album
Speaker 1: a few years ago, and in the spirit of the
Speaker 1: Mass Singer, all throw out some clues. He was born
Speaker 1: Egbert Nathaniel Dawkins, the third to Panamanian parents in Southern California.
Speaker 1: He was a renaissance and trustee scholar at the University
Speaker 1: of Southern California, where he majored in linguistics and psychology,
Speaker 1: and after graduating, he went on to become the international
Speaker 1: recording superstar known as drum Roll Allow Black, and I
Speaker 1: am so happy to welcome him on the Holy Human Podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you worsing with me. Hallo Black, Welcome to the
Speaker 1: Holy Human Podcast. Thank you so much for coming on here.
Speaker 1: Thank you, It's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for
Speaker 1: inviting me. I have to say, if anyone has met
Speaker 1: this man, you are one of the kindest human beings
Speaker 1: I have ever been around, and it brings me such
Speaker 1: joy to just even be in your energy because your
Speaker 1: heart is so full and what you give to people
Speaker 1: is so beautiful. Um, so just thank you for that.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You seem the same. So I think this
Speaker 1: game recognized game, right. I'm so glad that we actually
Speaker 1: get to sit here and talk about our experience on
Speaker 1: the Mass Singer because, first off, as I have been
Speaker 1: keeping this in for months weeks now, and it's been
Speaker 1: really difficult, people hitting us up thinking it's us on
Speaker 1: the show, how has the experience been for you? Of
Speaker 1: just like, of just keeping it quiet. Keeping it quiet
Speaker 1: is is definitely the hard part because I was trying
Speaker 1: to keep it a secret and make it a surprise
Speaker 1: for my wife. And there was one I think it
Speaker 1: was like a holiday, labor day or something came up
Speaker 1: and she was wondering, why am I working on labor day?
Speaker 1: So I can't I cancel whatever I'm doing, and and
Speaker 1: so I had to open up and let her know that, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's the deal. I know you didn't sign the NDA,
Speaker 1: but this is this is the secret, and I was
Speaker 1: going to surprise you with it. But now let's keep
Speaker 1: it a secret and we can surprise the kids. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I mean, how old are your children? I have
Speaker 1: a four year old and a seven year old. Okay,
Speaker 1: so yeah, have you and your family ever watched the
Speaker 1: show before previous seasons, and no, we hadn't watched as
Speaker 1: a family. This season, we're certainly watching as a family.
Speaker 1: And recently my daughter said, oh, my gosh, mushroom kind
Speaker 1: of sounded like daddy for a second, and then I
Speaker 1: realized that that's the end of this group uh episode
Speaker 1: that we're gonna watch. We're gonna watch all the other groups.
Speaker 1: We're not going to watch my group's episodes anymore. That
Speaker 1: is too funny, I know. For me, Like I was
Speaker 1: in the studio recording, it was my I want I
Speaker 1: don't want to say, lie, but that my white life.
Speaker 1: What were you out doing in the studio? Same exact,
Speaker 1: same exact I had. I had on the calendar, you know,
Speaker 1: this thing about a toy company I was negotiating with
Speaker 1: and then I was making children's music four and it's
Speaker 1: true I am doing it, but it just wasn't happening then,
Speaker 1: and so that was what was on the calendar. And
Speaker 1: that's what the do we say, lie? Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: the lie was Our fib Yeah, because I was in
Speaker 1: the studio too at the same time. Is so it
Speaker 1: wasn't really like quite the lie. But what led you
Speaker 1: to say yes to the mass Singer? I had been
Speaker 1: asked to participate in a mess singer in another country
Speaker 1: and I was really seriously considering it, but I thought
Speaker 1: the travel, the time away from family, all of that
Speaker 1: was going to be a bit overbearing. The fact that
Speaker 1: it was in Los Angeles, just down the street from
Speaker 1: my house sealed the deal. But also to be able
Speaker 1: to be someone completely different and experience what I do
Speaker 1: on stage as a brand new character and with a
Speaker 1: brand new energy. I thought that was an exciting part
Speaker 1: of the show. And it doesn't hurt that it's the
Speaker 1: most popular show on TV right right right? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's such a character and developing the character was such
Speaker 1: an interesting piece. And one of my favorite things about
Speaker 1: the show was the team that we got to work with,
Speaker 1: Like every single person was so creative and just brought
Speaker 1: their own gifts to the show. And there were so
Speaker 1: many gifted people. Like when you started creating your character,
Speaker 1: did they present you with the mushroom? Did you have
Speaker 1: an idea to do the mushroom? Like tell me that
Speaker 1: whole process a few ideas of what character they could
Speaker 1: present me. They all seemed a bit too close to
Speaker 1: who I am. Right, My stage name is Alo, and
Speaker 1: one of the characters was broccoli, and I thought, that's
Speaker 1: a little bit too close a green vegetable. And then
Speaker 1: there was this other character, I think it was a
Speaker 1: shark or something like that, and with a fedora or
Speaker 1: a Trilby hat, and it felt like, Okay, that's a
Speaker 1: bit too close to my style as well, like in
Speaker 1: a suit. So I thought, um, what is the complete opposite?
Speaker 1: That looks different? And the mushroom outfit looked very different
Speaker 1: from me and from the artist that I am in
Speaker 1: my career, so I figured this was the one I
Speaker 1: wanted to play the game and try to throw everybody
Speaker 1: off the trail. I have to say, I had no idea,
Speaker 1: no idea until until the day were the same, Yeah,
Speaker 1: until the day we were in the same building at
Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah. No, Well, because we were also
Speaker 1: in different groups, so I hadn't gotten to hear you perform,
Speaker 1: and you were next to me warming up singing Stevie Wonder,
Speaker 1: and I started like harmonizing with you, like underneath my
Speaker 1: breath and literally I go, damn, we sound good together.
Speaker 1: We should do we should do it whoever that is,
Speaker 1: we've already done that, which you are so gracious to
Speaker 1: come on my Christmas record and that's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite favorite It's so good. I love your voice so much.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I remember after the whole finale and after
Speaker 1: I won, and I was like, can I go hug him?
Speaker 1: I know we had all been, you know, tested, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's my friend. I just want to go
Speaker 1: hug him. He's the sweetest man. I'm so glad. It
Speaker 1: was a real moment in this in this uh masked world,
Speaker 1: right and of um putting on airs and like trying
Speaker 1: to be something different. That was a real moment. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Oh yes, and thank you. And I actually I was
Speaker 1: crying the other day because I was I was thinking
Speaker 1: of our our conversation today and I was going through
Speaker 1: just your life and just questions and thinking about things.
Speaker 1: And one of the things you said to me right
Speaker 1: after was I hope she was hearing how much love
Speaker 1: they had from her. And I literally I remembered that
Speaker 1: the other day and I told my husband. I started crying.
Speaker 1: I was like, that's so sweet, like but it was
Speaker 1: it was so cool to have a friend like next
Speaker 1: to me at the final and not even knowing it.
Speaker 1: That was awesome. You know. I didn't realize um, who
Speaker 1: you were either until the end. There was a text
Speaker 1: that I received out of the blue from uh Darryl,
Speaker 1: and I thought was Darryll texting? Right? And I thought,
Speaker 1: do I respond? Does he know he has to know?
Speaker 1: Is that lee Anne? Oh my goodness, that is Leanne.
Speaker 1: I just want to quickly explain to you guys that
Speaker 1: Darryll is my wonderful manager. And so I texted him
Speaker 1: back and was like, hey, how's everything going. I try
Speaker 1: to keep it, you know, a bit casual and not
Speaker 1: not blow my cover. Yeah. No, he knew, I know,
Speaker 1: like at the very very end, and he didn't tell
Speaker 1: me because I was like, I was totally like, I
Speaker 1: just had no idea. And it was so interesting to
Speaker 1: me because I don't know, this is something I want
Speaker 1: to get into with you as competition, Like how are
Speaker 1: you with competition? Because for me, I've really kind of
Speaker 1: dug into this because I haven't had to be in
Speaker 1: kind of that kind of competition and like mode for
Speaker 1: a very very long time and it's interesting what it
Speaker 1: turns on inside of me. Um, there's like this like
Speaker 1: I'm going for it, like full out, like you know,
Speaker 1: everything I've got goes into the creation or went into
Speaker 1: the creation of my character and the songs and the
Speaker 1: whole thing. When it was down to you and me,
Speaker 1: it was like, it was so interesting what I recognized
Speaker 1: for myself about what competition does because I started competing
Speaker 1: when I was really really young. Competition for me was
Speaker 1: almost like to win was the way that I learned
Speaker 1: how to receive love or less. That's what I equated
Speaker 1: it with. And so I know what comes out in
Speaker 1: me to avoid the feeling of loss or how I
Speaker 1: equate quote unquote losing is like a loss for me.
Speaker 1: So I think in my mind and my body like
Speaker 1: what comes out is like I have to win. And
Speaker 1: then when it's your friend next to you, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't anybody else feeling opposite of winning, like, which
Speaker 1: who knows how you out? But in my mind it's
Speaker 1: like for anyone to have to win this at this
Speaker 1: moment is like really sad me because you're my friend,
Speaker 1: you know, so how does that play out in your world?
Speaker 1: So for me, okay, I haven't had to compete since
Speaker 1: high school, like in sports and music festival when I
Speaker 1: played the trumpet and I had to compete for first chair.
Speaker 1: What comes up for me in competition now is like
Speaker 1: just have fun and winning doesn't matter. That's what comes
Speaker 1: up for me. It's like I was in this game,
Speaker 1: playing it to see how long I could last and
Speaker 1: and fool the panel. So that's what I thought. Really
Speaker 1: the mask scene was about fooling the panel, not standing
Speaker 1: the final who is the last person to win the
Speaker 1: Golden Mask? You did amazing? I thought I did pretty good.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm I'm fooling him. This seems like
Speaker 1: it's you know, I'm I'm getting away with it. So
Speaker 1: I felt I felt like I was doing all right.
Speaker 1: I think that's where all my my competitive spirit was in,
Speaker 1: like making sure that I was, you know, ducking all
Speaker 1: the clues. Yeah, it was interesting for me because I
Speaker 1: actually have said no to the show. They've asked me
Speaker 1: to do the show before, and even this time, I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't think I can do that because
Speaker 1: I don't think I can fool people with my voice.
Speaker 1: And then am I doing myself an injustice if I'd
Speaker 1: go to try to disguise my voice and how would
Speaker 1: that sound? And from their point of view, they were like, no,
Speaker 1: just be you and do you. And like from the
Speaker 1: first show, my Twitter was blowing up like that, oh
Speaker 1: yeah instantly, and I'm like, I knew, I just knew.
Speaker 1: People like people have grown up with listening. There was
Speaker 1: just no way. I tried to throw different voices as
Speaker 1: often as I could. I love that because I knew
Speaker 1: if I went in with my regular you know and
Speaker 1: well known timber, immediately they would guess who I was
Speaker 1: and the show would be over and I wouldn't I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have any fun. And so for me, the fun
Speaker 1: was really just coming back and singing something different with
Speaker 1: a different voice. I asked for um female power ballads
Speaker 1: so that I could try to approximate a whole different
Speaker 1: kind of energy in a different timbre, and especially with
Speaker 1: the mushroom outfit that had you know, the stem that
Speaker 1: was basically a skirt. Then I put on this this
Speaker 1: character that was like my little daughter's energy when she
Speaker 1: dresses up in her princess dresses? Have you ever worn
Speaker 1: a skirt before that? The first time? And you know what,
Speaker 1: when I perform on stage, I do a lot of
Speaker 1: funky soul music. So I'm dancing. I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: doing James Brown moves and all kinds of stuff, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't move the way I wanted to move on
Speaker 1: stage because the skirt was really restrictive. So you know,
Speaker 1: if I ever do this again, I'm definitely getting pants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you did great, and that's we actually we're backstage.
Speaker 1: I remember talking about how well you play that skirt,
Speaker 1: because I mean, you did it well, and we were like,
Speaker 1: oh no, like you had kind of a feminine, feminine
Speaker 1: quality about it, which was so beautiful. I don't how
Speaker 1: did that feel for you to like bring out that
Speaker 1: side of it. Just kept thinking of like when I'm
Speaker 1: playing with my daughter and she's you know, she's dressing
Speaker 1: up and her princess outfits when she's on stage. We
Speaker 1: have this uh, raised area over by the fireplace where
Speaker 1: she'll perform, and all of that really started to be
Speaker 1: the kind of character of the mushroom who I was.
Speaker 1: And even though I know they changed the voice, I
Speaker 1: would still even speak into the microphone like this. I
Speaker 1: was changing my voice on purpose, knowing that they're going
Speaker 1: to change my voice later. It was it worked so
Speaker 1: well though, because you really had everyone fooled. I mean,
Speaker 1: to me, you were my favorite part of that show
Speaker 1: because of that reason. Like you clearly you thought out
Speaker 1: that process of really disguising who you were, and it
Speaker 1: was your voice sounded from a phenomenal on all of
Speaker 1: the songs, and the way that you performed Billie Eilish's
Speaker 1: when the Party's Over was stunning. It was inspiring. Thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was interesting because the arrangement was really interesting, what
Speaker 1: was going on in my ears and what people couldn't
Speaker 1: see because everything was acapella. So then it was all
Speaker 1: of these different counts right too, they want like and
Speaker 1: so I was so nervous before that because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm so going to screw this up. Like this is
Speaker 1: the hard part about the show. There's so much going
Speaker 1: on your ears, there's a count, there's stage managers, and
Speaker 1: then there's the nervousness of performing but not having a
Speaker 1: second chance because you're in front of the panel, right,
Speaker 1: and so it's not a rehearsal. This is real. You're
Speaker 1: doing it live. You're you're stuck in this hot costume.
Speaker 1: You're not sure if it's picking up all your your
Speaker 1: moments perfectly like it was. It's really tough. This is
Speaker 1: not an easy, easy show. No it's not. It was
Speaker 1: a lot more w than I expected ever to for
Speaker 1: anything like that to be. And what was your experience
Speaker 1: inside the costume because I know for me, like, you know,
Speaker 1: the head piece, are you like at all claustrophobics. I'm
Speaker 1: not claustphobic, but the headpiece was heavy, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to need two weeks worth of massages every
Speaker 1: day to get over get over this. Uh you know
Speaker 1: this muscles, the muscles that are growing in my neck
Speaker 1: right now. Oh yeah. No. It was definitely a challenge
Speaker 1: because as a singer, as you know, like everything needs
Speaker 1: to be open and free. And I actually lost my
Speaker 1: voice so right after the first show because they had
Speaker 1: a singing they had us pre recording everything I had.
Speaker 1: There was so much to do in so little time.
Speaker 1: And after the first show, I came the next day
Speaker 1: to record and I all of a sudden start warming
Speaker 1: up and I'm like, oh my god, I'm losing my voice. Okay,
Speaker 1: We're going to be right back with the more inside
Speaker 1: scoop from behind the mess singer. Welcome back, you guys.
Speaker 1: So yes, after the very first show, I started to
Speaker 1: lose my voice. So I ended up on like drugs
Speaker 1: and steroids, not drug drugs, but like steroids, and like,
Speaker 1: I was so worried, Like I had the worst experience,
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons was because of the weight
Speaker 1: of the costume, like made me start contorting myself and
Speaker 1: doing things that I wouldn't normally do, so people have
Speaker 1: no idea what's going on. That's one of the things.
Speaker 1: I didn't prepare properly either, and there was no one
Speaker 1: to tell me. Like my producer. It was amazing, but
Speaker 1: I don't think he understands the nuances of of a singer.
Speaker 1: So when I went into pre record the justin cases
Speaker 1: like in the studio, I went hard. I went like
Speaker 1: six takes of each song and and the next day
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I gotta actually do this on stage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wasn't strategizing properly. So then by the end of
Speaker 1: the whole thing, I think my last song, the finale song,
Speaker 1: was when my voice was the weakest. I remember rehearsing
Speaker 1: backstage because I had vocal coaches for us, rehearsing with
Speaker 1: a vocal coach, and I was like you know what,
Speaker 1: let's just take it down another half step. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: go down another half step, just so I can get
Speaker 1: the notes that I normally get, because at this point
Speaker 1: my voice was tired. Yeah, well, it's interesting because we
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I mean, I'm on
Speaker 1: the road a lot of the time. I'm sure you
Speaker 1: are too, and this whole situation wouldn't have happened. I
Speaker 1: don't think I would have said yes to the show
Speaker 1: because they usually spread it out over a significant period
Speaker 1: of time and oh yeah, it's usually like several weeks,
Speaker 1: and so for us, we got like this condensed version
Speaker 1: for us. Then, Okay, I thought this was I thought
Speaker 1: actually was good. It was great, but it was definitely challenging.
Speaker 1: I feel you on the costume. But I did love
Speaker 1: being like you were saying a different character of ourselves
Speaker 1: as an artist. Do you really feel like you wear
Speaker 1: a mask as an artist? Do you feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's any fragmentation there? There's definitely, yeah, fragmentation. I call
Speaker 1: it compartmentalization. Like there's a there's a there's a Nathaniel
Speaker 1: Dawkins that's my legal name, and then there's an Alo
Speaker 1: Black and then because I came up as an MC
Speaker 1: as a as a rapper, there's a whole other kind
Speaker 1: of character and energy to what I do as an
Speaker 1: as a rapper. And then there are songs that I
Speaker 1: write that are literally, you know, kind of teeny bopper
Speaker 1: pop songs that I could never present as the bow
Speaker 1: tie and and Fedora with a three piece soup guy. Right,
Speaker 1: So you know, I feel like there's all kinds of compartmentalization.
Speaker 1: And then the real me that you get is when
Speaker 1: we do an interview like this. You know, I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not being Alo Black right now. I'm not on stage.
Speaker 1: I'm just being myself. How does that stage persona serve you?
Speaker 1: Could you walk on stage? Is just you? You know
Speaker 1: I can. I've walked on stage. It's just me, and
Speaker 1: I do that when it's an acoustic performance. Um, when
Speaker 1: I'm with my pianist or my guitarist and we're really
Speaker 1: the bare bones, just voice and instrument, and I get
Speaker 1: to tell the stories behind the songs, how I wrote
Speaker 1: them and how the ideas came to me. That's when
Speaker 1: it's not the showman. When I've got my full six
Speaker 1: piece band, sometimes with background singers, usually not I've got
Speaker 1: to put so much energy out and I love calling response.
Speaker 1: I love getting the audience to dance and clap and
Speaker 1: be participating in the concert. I call it a party
Speaker 1: instead of a concert. Then that's when I know I'm
Speaker 1: something else, right, I'm I'm putting on the Aloe black character. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that also comes into play too, from like
Speaker 1: you said, you being a rapper and MC and guarantee
Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head so becau because
Speaker 1: I came up as a teenager having to rock a stage.
Speaker 1: There's no getting on. I have ballants. I have really tender,
Speaker 1: soft moment songs that I never do on stage with
Speaker 1: my band because when I'm on stage with a best
Speaker 1: I need to make the crowd say hey and yes, yes,
Speaker 1: y'all and home. And you know that's I'm still trying
Speaker 1: to be LLL cool Ja run d m C on
Speaker 1: stage as the soul singer. So I love that. I
Speaker 1: love that. What I feel for me was you really intuitive,
Speaker 1: sensitive human being? And with that being said, what revelations
Speaker 1: did you have? Were there any things that surprised you
Speaker 1: about yourself or things that you learned being another character
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't have learned unless you would have been
Speaker 1: on the show. Um. Definitely a new level of endurance. Um.
Speaker 1: There were moments where they're like, oh, do you want
Speaker 1: some water? And I was like nah. And then I
Speaker 1: got to the point where I was like, you know
Speaker 1: what when they asked if I want water, just take it,
Speaker 1: Just take it. I'm not proving nothing to nobody. Just
Speaker 1: take the water. It was like, I can do this.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna rough through it. Um. So you know, a
Speaker 1: new level of endurance, but also just um the idea
Speaker 1: that I could probably do theater. I'd never done choreography
Speaker 1: on stage. For me, it's all about freestyle. When I
Speaker 1: was young, the hip hop clubs, going to the dance circles,
Speaker 1: and it's all freestyle. It's not there's no choreography, not
Speaker 1: the kind of things that kids are doing on TikTok
Speaker 1: nowadays where they memorize movements. Right. It's like I had
Speaker 1: in this moment to learn how to move while I
Speaker 1: was singing, and that is brand new and I'm interested
Speaker 1: to do it more now, to have some choreography, but
Speaker 1: probably not with my soul music, probably with something else,
Speaker 1: and it could be a whole new artist character that
Speaker 1: I developed that will be doing. But that's cool. I mean,
Speaker 1: have you always wanted to do theater? Is that something
Speaker 1: that you keep thinking about? It? The I just I
Speaker 1: just keep thinking about how it would feel like a
Speaker 1: prison to me because music is such a free form
Speaker 1: of expression and I get to control every single piece
Speaker 1: of it since I was young, writing, producing, mixing, mastering,
Speaker 1: all the engineering, even the artwork. All of that stuff
Speaker 1: I would do either by myself or with my hip
Speaker 1: hop partner DJ Exile. But being in a film or
Speaker 1: on a TV show or on stage and having to
Speaker 1: do the same exact thing over and over again, and
Speaker 1: having to be at a specific place and time the
Speaker 1: same place and time over and over again feels very
Speaker 1: restrictive to me. And that's something I think I would
Speaker 1: have to get over to engage. But I think I
Speaker 1: would love to do theater. I've been coming up with
Speaker 1: a one man piece that's awesome. Is it the monotony
Speaker 1: or the lack of control? I think it's the lack
Speaker 1: of control. My wife says I have control issues. I
Speaker 1: know it's true I do, but you know, I feel
Speaker 1: like this is what I'm I'm in a comfort zone
Speaker 1: with this much freedom, and I can do these other
Speaker 1: things where there's less control for little bits of time.
Speaker 1: But then I just so, does that control bleed over
Speaker 1: into like into all of your whole life? I think,
Speaker 1: I mean my wife would say yes, absolutely, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, but definitely, um, there are other parts.
Speaker 1: You know, musicians that I work with is I love
Speaker 1: working with new musicians all the time, and that's because
Speaker 1: they get to color their personality onto the performance in
Speaker 1: a different way. I have a band in Paris, I
Speaker 1: have two bands in l A, you know, when I
Speaker 1: go to Australia, have a band in Australia, and they
Speaker 1: all play my songs differently, and I'm not controlling or
Speaker 1: strict about how they share their personality on the music.
Speaker 1: Where the control comes in is like strategies, processes, functionality.
Speaker 1: I'm a process driven individual. So when I can foresee
Speaker 1: like ten move was ahead, I want to be sure
Speaker 1: all those moves are met, and I don't want to
Speaker 1: take any extra time to explore any other avenues because
Speaker 1: I already know it, like I saw it clear as day. Well,
Speaker 1: so that's your intuition, like that's you trust, but you
Speaker 1: know I trust myself. That's me trusted myself. I have
Speaker 1: to do some work to open up and be a
Speaker 1: bit more relaxed when other people are involved. Because of
Speaker 1: my status, and this has been for many years, not
Speaker 1: just as a career artist, people assume that I have
Speaker 1: executive power, and it's because I take the position of
Speaker 1: executive power and that then subordinates others in a way
Speaker 1: that makes them feel that anything that I say could
Speaker 1: and is incisive. And I, you know, I don't want
Speaker 1: to let that assumption of power subject others to a
Speaker 1: feeling of subordination. You know, how do your chill? Because
Speaker 1: when you have kids, like I have two stepsons, and
Speaker 1: I know when I have kids like all because I'm
Speaker 1: I like to control things also, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I've definitely done some work on being able to be
Speaker 1: a lot more collaborative in many ways. I had a
Speaker 1: writing session with someone the other day who was another artist,
Speaker 1: and it was the first time I've ever done that,
Speaker 1: and it was so interesting because I'm like having to
Speaker 1: hold myself back then, like, oh, I'm not gonna I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna say that right now, like really trying to
Speaker 1: walk the line of allowing that real collaboration, of allowing
Speaker 1: someone else the process having my own process, and it's
Speaker 1: so interesting. I feel like my stepsons have taught me
Speaker 1: so much about allowing everyone's personality into the room and
Speaker 1: allowing for flexibility, because you know, I grew up an
Speaker 1: only child and I talked about non flexible I mean,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, I was also very much
Speaker 1: a kind of codependent caretaker with everyone. So I would
Speaker 1: still make sure that everyone's feelings were taken care of,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, I felt like I was
Speaker 1: for my own safety need control And I just wonder
Speaker 1: what your kids have taught you around that. Okay, kids
Speaker 1: have taught me that my concept of control has to
Speaker 1: be thrown out the window completely. Okay, um, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize it until my son was three years old. These
Speaker 1: four now, you can't just constantly exert your will over kids.
Speaker 1: They need, they want, and they're supposed to push and
Speaker 1: pull to find out what the boundaries are. And sometimes
Speaker 1: you allow them to find those boundaries on their own,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes, you know, like when it's something dangerous,
Speaker 1: you make sure that you set that boundary. Kids need
Speaker 1: to to play through. Some moments, when my son is
Speaker 1: acting up or acting out, I changed my mind and
Speaker 1: I say, he's not acting up, he's not acting out,
Speaker 1: he's not being disagreeable. He just wants to play through this.
Speaker 1: And so when I changed my mind about it, I
Speaker 1: play with him through it. Then we eventually get there,
Speaker 1: like brushing teeth or you know, putting on your pajamas
Speaker 1: before bed. It's not that he doesn't want to do it.
Speaker 1: Why is he running around the house naked. He he's
Speaker 1: not trying to make me upset. He just wants attention
Speaker 1: in a certain way, and he wants to play through it.
Speaker 1: And at the end of everything, when my kids are
Speaker 1: older and I'm at the end of my life, what
Speaker 1: I want them to say about me is that Daddy
Speaker 1: was fun. We always have fun with Daddy. So instead
Speaker 1: of me saying, hurry up and get to the bedroom
Speaker 1: and put on your pajamas, I'll chase him. I'll chase
Speaker 1: him around, pick him up, tickle him, and carry him
Speaker 1: to the bedroom and put on his pajamas. Because ultimately,
Speaker 1: when he's ten years old, he's not going to be
Speaker 1: running around the house naked. And and I think he
Speaker 1: is then and then I take back everything I'm saying.
Speaker 1: But I'm hoping that when he's ten years old. I
Speaker 1: didn't leave those moments of you know, parenting where I
Speaker 1: could have used more authority. I didn't leave them in
Speaker 1: a way that made him a derelict. That's what I hope,
Speaker 1: and I don't think it will be that way. So
Speaker 1: beautiful that you brought up the word play, because you know,
Speaker 1: I started so young, and I I lost so much
Speaker 1: of my childhood and it didn't really dawn on me
Speaker 1: till I had children around me and saw I mean,
Speaker 1: their dad is so wonderful with them and how he
Speaker 1: played with them, and I'm like, oh, I didn't being
Speaker 1: an only child and having a job so early on, like,
Speaker 1: I missed play. And part of my discovery with the
Speaker 1: Massinger was getting to play again, like as a character,
Speaker 1: because I remember growing up, you know, being outside and
Speaker 1: playing on my own and having all these characters and
Speaker 1: people that I talked to and I created those, you know,
Speaker 1: when I was little, and it was all most like
Speaker 1: it took me back to being five again and getting
Speaker 1: to create a character and play. It's amazing that you're
Speaker 1: doing that with your children, because I think that adults
Speaker 1: forget that piece. I think we as songwriters, as performers
Speaker 1: entertainers and singers. We are almost very last playground, the
Speaker 1: last real playground for adults. There, of course, are other
Speaker 1: forms of art that are entertaining and our playgrounds as well,
Speaker 1: but they're a bit rigid. Television shows and films, everything
Speaker 1: spelled out for you. Music, there's still a whole lot
Speaker 1: of interpretation going on. Visual art, there's still a whole
Speaker 1: lot of interpretation going on, and we um we get
Speaker 1: to play with our fans and they get to play
Speaker 1: with us the whole day. You hear a song and
Speaker 1: it stays in your head the whole day, maybe a
Speaker 1: whole week or month, and you're constantly in this playground
Speaker 1: and you can go to it whenever you want because
Speaker 1: nobody else can hear it. And I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the beautiful things that we have as songwriters, and
Speaker 1: hearing your story about the song session writing with other folks.
Speaker 1: I got into that a couple of years ago, and
Speaker 1: I dove, you know, headfirst into it with a bunch
Speaker 1: of blind date songwriting sessions, like just random people I
Speaker 1: never met in my life when I'm gonna go write
Speaker 1: a song with them. And I started to learn a
Speaker 1: lot of different techniques and songwriting methods, and I think
Speaker 1: it's improved my ability as a songwriter. It's broadened my
Speaker 1: perspective as a songwriter as well. How does that control
Speaker 1: play into that piece? You know, I I surrendered, I
Speaker 1: surrendered right away. Not right away. Sorry, I didn't surrender
Speaker 1: right away. There was there was there were sessions where
Speaker 1: I was really really silly with the control. So I like, again,
Speaker 1: I enjoyed process, and I was experimenting, had theories and
Speaker 1: I had all kinds of you know, concepts about how
Speaker 1: to make the best song. At one point, I was like,
Speaker 1: writing a song with a producer who's making a beat
Speaker 1: in the room, creating a vibe is cheating because is
Speaker 1: what you're doing is you're borrowing that vibe and you
Speaker 1: may end up skimping or slipping on the quality and
Speaker 1: the strength of the words. So I was like, let's
Speaker 1: just go in. We're going to write a song. We're
Speaker 1: just gonna write some lyrics and we're gonna come up
Speaker 1: with a melody. I'll have a piano nearby, so we
Speaker 1: can come up with chords around the melody. But let's
Speaker 1: come up with a concept words lyrics, And you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of times that rubbed the songwriting partner the
Speaker 1: wrong way because they totally needed a vibe. They come
Speaker 1: from a vibe place, and um, you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: surrender and I didn't check their needs and I didn't
Speaker 1: acknowledge what the moment required. And so at this point
Speaker 1: I kind of sit back and I, you know, I
Speaker 1: glean the best from the people that I'm in the
Speaker 1: room with. It's interesting, it's an interesting process to dance
Speaker 1: on that line and collaborate. And you know, I think,
Speaker 1: like I said, as an only child and someone who's
Speaker 1: been running my life for so long, thank god I
Speaker 1: actually had kids in my life to teach me a
Speaker 1: little bit of that. I think it's made me a
Speaker 1: much softer human being and be able to collaborate with
Speaker 1: people because it's, uh, we're meant to be communal. People
Speaker 1: were meant to meant to collaborate like this, you know,
Speaker 1: when you do it with art, like you're all painting
Speaker 1: a picture together, And it's a beautiful experience to have
Speaker 1: to be able to connect with people on that level. Absolutely, Okay,
Speaker 1: on that beautiful note, We're going to take a quick pause,
Speaker 1: but when we return, Ala reveals his greatest takeaway from
Speaker 1: behind that mushroom masque. Welcome back everyone. So I have
Speaker 1: a question I'd love to ask, given our shared ex barience,
Speaker 1: what did you learn from the anonymity of wearing the
Speaker 1: mask that you think you will take forward with you. Okay,
Speaker 1: this may sound a bit functional or clerical, but really
Speaker 1: it is be prepared no matter what. So part of
Speaker 1: me felt like, oh, I'm wearing a mask. I can
Speaker 1: phone it in, but it's not true, and you should
Speaker 1: never phone it in. Should always always be prepared and
Speaker 1: always you know. The great thing about the mask for
Speaker 1: me as a woman was I could phone in my
Speaker 1: hair and make up. I was in sweats, sweats outfit
Speaker 1: back into sweats, like, did not care. I'd come in
Speaker 1: with wet hair. It was awesome. So yeah, definitely, always
Speaker 1: be prepared. And I think you had to be even
Speaker 1: more prepared, which we didn't know when we first started.
Speaker 1: I think you had to be even more prepared because
Speaker 1: of the masks, Like you really had to know what
Speaker 1: you were doing because you were contending with many things interesting.
Speaker 1: I just want to pivot here and go into your
Speaker 1: history with your psych major I did. I did major
Speaker 1: in um psychology and linguistics when I was in college,
Speaker 1: which is very cool. When I was little, I was
Speaker 1: like five or six. I have no idea how this
Speaker 1: came to my head, but I either wanted to be
Speaker 1: a singer, or I wanted to be the first female
Speaker 1: baseball player because I loved a baseball or I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a psych major I mean five or had
Speaker 1: no idea how all that came to be. But I
Speaker 1: just found that so interesting about you, Like, as far
Speaker 1: as wearing the mask, if we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: that from your psych brain, how do you see that
Speaker 1: playing out in the world right now? Like the we've
Speaker 1: all been wearing masks for I mean, our whole lives.
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you feel do you feel like
Speaker 1: this is a time of as we're being revealed, do
Speaker 1: you feel this is a time that people are actually
Speaker 1: like starting to take those off. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think people think they're starting to take their masks off.
Speaker 1: But I feel like social media has doubled down on
Speaker 1: our superficiality. I think because we have these over enhanced,
Speaker 1: embellished lives where we only get to show the best
Speaker 1: sides on our Instagrams and our facebooks and twitters, that
Speaker 1: it's a mask that exists, and it it also it
Speaker 1: persists in a way that is wholly untrue because it's
Speaker 1: not the whole story. And it also makes other people
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable or inadequate or insufficient. When we look at
Speaker 1: our social media feeds and we see other people's lives
Speaker 1: that are so amazing, we're not qualifying the fact that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff they're not showing us. So
Speaker 1: when we measure against our own reflection, we see all
Speaker 1: of the bad and all of the good, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't measure up to someone who's only showing you all
Speaker 1: the good. That's why I feel like I don't know
Speaker 1: that we are unmasked yet. I thought that the pandemic
Speaker 1: would be a moment that would fully ignite this concept
Speaker 1: and enlighten everyone that we are all super connected and
Speaker 1: in the most existential ways, especially when it's just the
Speaker 1: air between us, that it is ultimately what could affect
Speaker 1: us right interesting politically, it just got spun terribly and
Speaker 1: I think we as artists are opportunity. Our challenge is
Speaker 1: to unify, is to unify people again through music and
Speaker 1: bring people together and give them a chance to feel
Speaker 1: whole and human um without the pretense you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that wholeness piece is like you're saying, there's and I
Speaker 1: call it fragmentation. There's so much fragmentation that happens, especially
Speaker 1: on social media, where people feel like, oh, this piece
Speaker 1: of me. And it's not just social media. I feel
Speaker 1: like for myself, you know, this has been kind of
Speaker 1: my life, of my whole life of don't bring that
Speaker 1: piece of you to the party because it's not accepted,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, the mask of especially for
Speaker 1: me being the good girl and like all the things
Speaker 1: that were fed to me from a very young age,
Speaker 1: and that fragmentation for me, my healing of that has
Speaker 1: actually been the way I use social media is actually
Speaker 1: to share the pieces that haven't been brought to the table.
Speaker 1: And that's new for me. That's a new revelation. And
Speaker 1: I think that this whole pandemic has actually enlightened me
Speaker 1: in the way of like, I want to bring all
Speaker 1: the things to the table that haven't been accepted, because
Speaker 1: that's the way healing happens to me, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: And you're right, I feel like this pandemic allowed us
Speaker 1: to touch upon that. But there's a lot of bravery,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know it takes a brave
Speaker 1: soul to walk that path of being fully exposed and honest,
Speaker 1: and I'm still digging into the layers of that. But
Speaker 1: I do think it is our responsibility as artists who
Speaker 1: connect people. But also if we have the opportunity in
Speaker 1: the platform. For me, at least, it's like, I want
Speaker 1: to show up fully. The fragmentation for me has been
Speaker 1: so painful. I think sometimes if people really sit down
Speaker 1: and think about it as painful for them too. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like if you can't if there are pieces of
Speaker 1: you that are unacceptable, they can't be brought forth, then
Speaker 1: like there's pieces of you that you aren't loving, that
Speaker 1: you aren't extending love to. I think that's like you're
Speaker 1: saying that that door opened for people, but did they
Speaker 1: walk through it? You know? Who knows. I feel like um,
Speaker 1: as an artist, I have not offered enough of who
Speaker 1: I am, of myself. I've been I've been playing the
Speaker 1: game of presenting art and not presenting myself. And I
Speaker 1: always had this idea, this theory. You know, as an artist,
Speaker 1: I get to create characters. That's my artistic license, poetic license,
Speaker 1: is to create stories and characters and present something other
Speaker 1: than who I am. But this last album for me
Speaker 1: was an opportunity to start trying to share are more
Speaker 1: that's emotional sharing, more that's personal sharing, more that's intimate,
Speaker 1: and getting even deeper and closer to who I am,
Speaker 1: hopefully in subsequent projects, so that I am showing up
Speaker 1: fully and not just as the showman. Now I I
Speaker 1: I dug into your new record a bit, and and
Speaker 1: I see that, and I appreciate that because I think
Speaker 1: you have so many beautiful things to share and you're
Speaker 1: such a beautiful human being in your heart is just
Speaker 1: so in it, and I just really appreciate that and
Speaker 1: respect that about you as an artist, So so thank you.
Speaker 1: And speaking of artistry, because I know music obviously, like
Speaker 1: we're saying, unites so many of us. And I always
Speaker 1: find it interesting to dig into everyone's little like music
Speaker 1: catalog and see what interests them and like what they're into.
Speaker 1: So we have this thing on here called the Holy Five.
Speaker 1: And so what would be like your five top songs
Speaker 1: that could be just what you're interested and now or
Speaker 1: what you've been like throughout your life, like what you've loved.
Speaker 1: What would be your top five? Okay, so it's all
Speaker 1: over the place like that. One of my favorite artists
Speaker 1: of all time is Bill Withers. I feel like when
Speaker 1: I started singing, I adopted a lot of his style.
Speaker 1: Lean on Me would be one of my top five
Speaker 1: songs for sure, Lead on Me when You're I'm a huge,
Speaker 1: huge fan of Stevie Wonder. There are too many songs
Speaker 1: of his name put into a top five. But you know,
Speaker 1: I remember when I very first accepted Steve Wonder as
Speaker 1: my own. It wasn't my parents anymore, he was my own.
Speaker 1: Golden Lady was one of the songs, and that's the
Speaker 1: one that I remember having a huge impact on me
Speaker 1: and my love for Stevie Wonder. When I started singing
Speaker 1: the artist that sort of made me make that transition
Speaker 1: from rapping to singing. I saw an infomercial for Cat Stevens,
Speaker 1: and in this infomercial, I saw his face and I
Speaker 1: saw him playing guitar and singing, and he felt like
Speaker 1: he believed every word he said. And the emotion that
Speaker 1: I just felt from just seeing him made me want
Speaker 1: to do that. And so there's a song called Father
Speaker 1: and Son that he has that's really powerful. Now that's
Speaker 1: away and I know, but I have to go. His
Speaker 1: writing is amazing. Yeah, absolutely, Who do you love now? Like,
Speaker 1: what's something that's inspiring you are? Like? That's I cry
Speaker 1: to a song called be Good by Gregory Reporter. He's
Speaker 1: one of the new talents in jazz music. I have
Speaker 1: to heard that. I have to go listen the music video,
Speaker 1: the song, the lyric voice, the musicianship, all of it
Speaker 1: is above a D percent in my opinion. But the
Speaker 1: one I think this mess so my best hasn't left
Speaker 1: me rude hi and it's hard for me to find
Speaker 1: that a lot of times where someone's punching way above
Speaker 1: average on so many different variables. Yeah, I agreed. What's
Speaker 1: about for your fifth song? If I may, what is
Speaker 1: your favorite off of your new record? Do you have? Harvard?
Speaker 1: Is my favorite off my new record Everything They Need? Do?
Speaker 1: We all got issues? It's just the stuff we live through.
Speaker 1: Everybody's got the coffee stains. I ain't complained and I'm
Speaker 1: just singing. It's the last song on the album, and
Speaker 1: it's just, in my opinion, a touching story about how
Speaker 1: connected we are. We may have different livelihoods, different sources
Speaker 1: of income, we if under potentially different circumstances, but there
Speaker 1: are still emotionally some of the things that we just
Speaker 1: are trying to do that. It's all the same. We
Speaker 1: all want to be happy, we all want comfort, we
Speaker 1: all want to provide a life for our kids. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, I really like that that song. I feel
Speaker 1: like it's one of the stronger songs that I've written.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love what I hear in your
Speaker 1: music is what I feel like. I'm where I'm going
Speaker 1: with mine right now, and like you're saying, it is
Speaker 1: connecting people, and it is reminding people of who we
Speaker 1: are and where you're going and where where you are
Speaker 1: right now and you're with your music is just beautiful.
Speaker 1: So congratulations on your new record. I know that takes
Speaker 1: a lot to birth something into the world. So and
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on here, thank you for chatting
Speaker 1: with me about life and the mass singer, and I'm
Speaker 1: just honored that we're able to connect. Well, thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'm really happy that you asked me
Speaker 1: to come and talk to you and nice to catch
Speaker 1: up again. And if I didn't get my fifth song,
Speaker 1: then I would say Joni Mitchell's anything any anything, Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe Big Yellow Taxing very fun there's your playful side.
Speaker 1: I love that. Well. Thank you, my friend, thank you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: much love. I'll see you sooner. Al Right, everyone, that's
Speaker 1: it for this episode. Please don't hesitate to share with
Speaker 1: anyone you think would benefit from listening, and I would
Speaker 1: love to hear from you too, so leave me a
Speaker 1: message and a rating and wherever you get your podcast
Speaker 1: on the next Holy Human will be with the incredibly
Speaker 1: amusing and inspiring Amber Hawken, the force of nature behind
Speaker 1: an amazing book called The Unfunck Withible Life. Seven codes
Speaker 1: to embrace connection and vulnerability to create a life of
Speaker 1: inspiration and freedom. Until then, I wish you peace and
Speaker 1: much connection with those you love, especially yourself. Listen and
Speaker 1: follow Holy Human on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts.