1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,064 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 7 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 8 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,784 Speaker 3: the world, and part. 9 00:00:30,584 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 4: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,424 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of 12 00:00:40,464 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 3: you may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 4: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:46,263 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. 15 00:00:48,263 --> 00:00:52,783 Speaker 5: Today, we would like to welcome rich Lochus and Ericode 16 00:00:52,824 --> 00:00:57,864 Speaker 5: wrote from leaving Mega, which is a community an organization 17 00:00:57,984 --> 00:01:01,064 Speaker 5: for those who have left the Mega organization. 18 00:01:01,464 --> 00:01:07,744 Speaker 4: You were both deeply entrenched inside of Mega ideology and mindset, 19 00:01:08,264 --> 00:01:11,063 Speaker 4: and you both left and so we're really pleased to 20 00:01:11,064 --> 00:01:13,944 Speaker 4: have you here to talk about what led you into Mecca, 21 00:01:14,143 --> 00:01:16,624 Speaker 4: what motivated it, and what brought you out and what 22 00:01:16,664 --> 00:01:19,904 Speaker 4: the consequences are. So Rich or Erica, would you like 23 00:01:19,944 --> 00:01:22,744 Speaker 4: to start off and give us to sensed your journey 24 00:01:22,904 --> 00:01:24,423 Speaker 4: into the Belly of the Beast. 25 00:01:24,503 --> 00:01:27,624 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm a former q Andon supporter follower. 26 00:01:28,703 --> 00:01:33,703 Speaker 6: It's a long story, but summed up in my life, 27 00:01:33,863 --> 00:01:37,544 Speaker 6: I kinda like always thought that conspiracies were fun, They 28 00:01:37,584 --> 00:01:40,744 Speaker 6: were entertaining, They were a what if, Like what if 29 00:01:40,783 --> 00:01:43,064 Speaker 6: there's this grand thing going on that the government is 30 00:01:43,104 --> 00:01:45,064 Speaker 6: trying to hide from us? And it was like a 31 00:01:45,063 --> 00:01:48,704 Speaker 6: little adventure that I could go on. And for me, 32 00:01:48,744 --> 00:01:51,784 Speaker 6: it all started surrounding nine nine to eleven. But I 33 00:01:51,824 --> 00:01:54,464 Speaker 6: wasn't like a at first. I wasn't like a hardcore 34 00:01:54,664 --> 00:01:58,303 Speaker 6: like nine to eleven truth or anything, but I liked 35 00:01:58,464 --> 00:02:02,024 Speaker 6: entertaining the idea that Bush had allowed this to happen, 36 00:02:02,944 --> 00:02:06,704 Speaker 6: and on and off into my early twenties, I started 37 00:02:06,704 --> 00:02:10,624 Speaker 6: following like the New World Order conspiracy in the Illuminati, 38 00:02:11,504 --> 00:02:15,664 Speaker 6: thinking that Alex Jones was like the greatest truth teller ever. 39 00:02:16,024 --> 00:02:21,184 Speaker 6: And then I got sucked into conspiracies after leaving an 40 00:02:21,184 --> 00:02:26,384 Speaker 6: abusive relationship, Like I just threw myself into it, and 41 00:02:26,824 --> 00:02:29,744 Speaker 6: I think it was a coping mechanism for me, And 42 00:02:30,144 --> 00:02:34,264 Speaker 6: unfortunately what happened was it led to me finding q 43 00:02:34,544 --> 00:02:39,824 Speaker 6: drops and the Dakotas and in the comment sections of 44 00:02:39,944 --> 00:02:43,424 Speaker 6: these posts, people believed the same things I believe, and 45 00:02:43,664 --> 00:02:47,144 Speaker 6: I thought that I had finally found my place, and 46 00:02:47,184 --> 00:02:53,144 Speaker 6: I got heavily, heavily entrenched in this world from twenty eighteen, 47 00:02:53,544 --> 00:02:59,224 Speaker 6: probably until just after January sixth, twenty twenty one. At 48 00:02:59,304 --> 00:03:04,424 Speaker 6: one point I was a admin in Telegram for a 49 00:03:04,944 --> 00:03:09,304 Speaker 6: large Q influencer. He's no longer posting anymore on Twitter, 50 00:03:09,344 --> 00:03:14,944 Speaker 6: but he went by the Punisher, and I would spend 51 00:03:14,944 --> 00:03:18,304 Speaker 6: my days not only just researching all this stuff and 52 00:03:18,384 --> 00:03:22,704 Speaker 6: promoting all sorts of new conspiracies that I researched on 53 00:03:22,744 --> 00:03:26,184 Speaker 6: my own, and some days I was on Telegram for 54 00:03:26,264 --> 00:03:28,904 Speaker 6: up to twenty twenty two hours doing this stuff. 55 00:03:29,264 --> 00:03:34,384 Speaker 4: So it started out as fun and interesting, and basically 56 00:03:34,424 --> 00:03:36,864 Speaker 4: you sort of wandered into quicksand is what you're saying right, 57 00:03:36,984 --> 00:03:39,104 Speaker 4: that sort of and that became really involved rich what 58 00:03:39,224 --> 00:03:40,424 Speaker 4: was your experience? 59 00:03:40,744 --> 00:03:44,504 Speaker 7: Yeah, So for me in twenty fifteen, I was someone 60 00:03:44,984 --> 00:03:50,104 Speaker 7: who was very politically lonely. I believe that both parties 61 00:03:50,704 --> 00:03:54,224 Speaker 7: were the same. I felt that they did not represent 62 00:03:54,424 --> 00:03:57,904 Speaker 7: most Americans, only represented a small sliver of the country, 63 00:03:57,984 --> 00:04:02,144 Speaker 7: the wealthy and the powerful. I had voted third party 64 00:04:02,184 --> 00:04:04,744 Speaker 7: many times in my life and very rarely did I 65 00:04:04,824 --> 00:04:08,184 Speaker 7: vote for a major party candidate. My first vote ever 66 00:04:08,224 --> 00:04:11,544 Speaker 7: for president was Ralph Nader in the year two thousand, 67 00:04:11,544 --> 00:04:13,624 Speaker 7: when I was living in New York. You know, being 68 00:04:13,664 --> 00:04:16,383 Speaker 7: in New York, al Gore was gonna win anyway, so 69 00:04:16,824 --> 00:04:20,023 Speaker 7: my vote was safe. But I didn't vote. I didn't 70 00:04:20,064 --> 00:04:25,264 Speaker 7: vote third party solely because of being anti two parties. 71 00:04:25,303 --> 00:04:31,664 Speaker 7: I was long attracted to the rogue, iconoclastic candidates, and 72 00:04:31,704 --> 00:04:34,224 Speaker 7: when Trump came on the scene in twenty fifteen, I 73 00:04:34,424 --> 00:04:37,264 Speaker 7: was curious in the beginning, and even though he ran 74 00:04:37,303 --> 00:04:42,183 Speaker 7: as a Republican, what enticed me about his candidacy was 75 00:04:42,664 --> 00:04:44,823 Speaker 7: that both parties saw him as a threat and that 76 00:04:44,904 --> 00:04:47,823 Speaker 7: he was a true outsider. He had no government, no military, 77 00:04:47,823 --> 00:04:54,944 Speaker 7: no political experience. And after many months of justifying away 78 00:04:55,664 --> 00:04:59,824 Speaker 7: comments that I knew were indefensible, like the John McCain 79 00:04:59,904 --> 00:05:04,383 Speaker 7: comment and the comments about Muslims, the comments about women, 80 00:05:05,424 --> 00:05:09,664 Speaker 7: I came to believe that if the Democrats had had 81 00:05:10,344 --> 00:05:14,984 Speaker 7: one in twenty sixteen, that they would have seized power permanently. 82 00:05:15,464 --> 00:05:20,143 Speaker 7: So I fell prey to the demographics or destiny mythology. 83 00:05:20,623 --> 00:05:24,104 Speaker 7: And it was in early twenty sixteen when I went 84 00:05:24,144 --> 00:05:26,863 Speaker 7: from Trump curious to being all in and I worked 85 00:05:26,863 --> 00:05:30,863 Speaker 7: on the campaign. I was a grassroots volunteer. I did 86 00:05:30,904 --> 00:05:33,584 Speaker 7: phone banking, I recruited people to vote for Trump. I 87 00:05:33,623 --> 00:05:38,503 Speaker 7: even contributed some of my journalistic and writing skills to 88 00:05:38,544 --> 00:05:42,984 Speaker 7: the call script for the campaign. And I felt something 89 00:05:43,024 --> 00:05:46,504 Speaker 7: that I had never felt before from the campaign, which 90 00:05:46,584 --> 00:05:50,823 Speaker 7: was a communal sense, a sense of feeling belonging. And 91 00:05:51,264 --> 00:05:54,704 Speaker 7: I feel like that's going to be a motif that's 92 00:05:54,743 --> 00:05:58,784 Speaker 7: going to run throughout this conversation, because you know the 93 00:05:58,784 --> 00:06:01,984 Speaker 7: way Erica was talking about having a community through QAnon 94 00:06:02,063 --> 00:06:05,224 Speaker 7: and conspiracies. For me, I wouldn't say my entrain to 95 00:06:05,303 --> 00:06:09,584 Speaker 7: Maga was conspiratorial initially, but once I was in and 96 00:06:10,183 --> 00:06:13,224 Speaker 7: I bought into lock stock and barrels, so many of 97 00:06:13,264 --> 00:06:17,024 Speaker 7: the conspiracies that still exists right now. The Democrats are 98 00:06:17,024 --> 00:06:20,664 Speaker 7: coming for your guns, and the schools are indoctrinating children 99 00:06:20,743 --> 00:06:25,544 Speaker 7: into transgender Marxism, and we're replacing white people with brown 100 00:06:25,584 --> 00:06:30,504 Speaker 7: people and foreigners. There's this really toxic amalgam and mix 101 00:06:30,904 --> 00:06:35,384 Speaker 7: of lies and conspiracy theories that magas buttressed on. And 102 00:06:35,424 --> 00:06:40,544 Speaker 7: I allowed myself to fall prey to those mythologies really quickly, 103 00:06:40,664 --> 00:06:44,183 Speaker 7: and I was around people who were Trump voters, people 104 00:06:44,183 --> 00:06:46,904 Speaker 7: I knew, people, I was close with people I trusted. 105 00:06:48,024 --> 00:06:51,063 Speaker 7: And it was throughout the course of the next several 106 00:06:51,183 --> 00:06:53,823 Speaker 7: years after the twenty sixteen election, that I just got 107 00:06:53,863 --> 00:06:58,343 Speaker 7: deeper and deeper. I became a Maga influencer, or I 108 00:06:58,383 --> 00:07:01,384 Speaker 7: aspired to be a Maga influencer. I was writing freelance 109 00:07:01,503 --> 00:07:06,144 Speaker 7: articles for writing publications. My media diet was steadily Maga media. 110 00:07:06,623 --> 00:07:10,184 Speaker 7: I was professionally producing a podcast. Was doing all of 111 00:07:10,224 --> 00:07:12,704 Speaker 7: this because I felt that I was in this existential 112 00:07:12,744 --> 00:07:15,504 Speaker 7: battle between good and evil, and I wanted the president 113 00:07:15,624 --> 00:07:20,024 Speaker 7: to see my work because it was my aspiration to 114 00:07:20,544 --> 00:07:24,304 Speaker 7: be a Maga pundit and influencer, and that's how I 115 00:07:24,424 --> 00:07:30,104 Speaker 7: lived my life devoutly, every hour of every day before 116 00:07:30,184 --> 00:07:33,424 Speaker 7: my doubts started. So I really relate to Erica talking 117 00:07:33,464 --> 00:07:37,864 Speaker 7: about being online for twenty twenty two hours because for me, 118 00:07:38,584 --> 00:07:42,744 Speaker 7: Maga consumed my identity. It was my being, my personhood, 119 00:07:42,824 --> 00:07:45,824 Speaker 7: and it was my It was completely how my worldview 120 00:07:45,824 --> 00:07:46,664 Speaker 7: had been shaped. 121 00:07:47,104 --> 00:07:51,304 Speaker 3: So it sounds like you're both saying separately that community 122 00:07:51,384 --> 00:07:53,984 Speaker 3: was a big part of it, right rich You're saying, yes, 123 00:07:54,104 --> 00:07:57,224 Speaker 3: you actually were out dealing with people and stuff, Eric 124 00:07:57,224 --> 00:07:59,584 Speaker 3: If I understand yours was more of an online experience. 125 00:07:59,584 --> 00:08:02,624 Speaker 3: You're watching infro war as you got onto Twitter. Did 126 00:08:02,664 --> 00:08:05,744 Speaker 3: you also go to rallies and do all that type 127 00:08:05,784 --> 00:08:06,384 Speaker 3: of stuff. 128 00:08:06,144 --> 00:08:09,264 Speaker 6: Or was it mostly I didn't participate in some protests 129 00:08:09,624 --> 00:08:13,264 Speaker 6: in the capital of New York and Albany with some 130 00:08:13,704 --> 00:08:17,784 Speaker 6: people who were rallying at the time against Governor Cuomo. 131 00:08:18,144 --> 00:08:20,384 Speaker 6: I mean it wasn't like on a regular basis, but 132 00:08:20,504 --> 00:08:24,824 Speaker 6: it was significant. But most of my interaction within my 133 00:08:24,984 --> 00:08:29,143 Speaker 6: community at the time was online. But I did enter 134 00:08:29,264 --> 00:08:33,424 Speaker 6: into real world spaces with those same types of people 135 00:08:33,464 --> 00:08:33,864 Speaker 6: as well. 136 00:08:34,264 --> 00:08:37,624 Speaker 4: This is something I've always often wondered about. What is 137 00:08:37,664 --> 00:08:40,624 Speaker 4: between the two of you? What is the difference between 138 00:08:40,624 --> 00:08:44,544 Speaker 4: a cult and a community? I mean, both have shared beliefs, 139 00:08:44,624 --> 00:08:47,024 Speaker 4: both have this sort of fellowship, Both have an us 140 00:08:47,103 --> 00:08:49,463 Speaker 4: them sort of relationship with the rest of the world, 141 00:08:49,944 --> 00:08:53,304 Speaker 4: and both both can be comforting. One is more threatening. 142 00:08:53,343 --> 00:08:58,024 Speaker 4: The word word community seems more fluffy and huggable. What 143 00:08:58,304 --> 00:09:01,304 Speaker 4: for you is the difference between cult and community? 144 00:09:01,864 --> 00:09:02,944 Speaker 2: So for me, I. 145 00:09:04,703 --> 00:09:09,384 Speaker 6: Thought that community was people who had shared beliefs with you, 146 00:09:09,624 --> 00:09:15,144 Speaker 6: believe the same things and influenced your views. But also 147 00:09:15,223 --> 00:09:17,743 Speaker 6: at the same time, you could disagree that I thought 148 00:09:17,784 --> 00:09:21,383 Speaker 6: that's what I was in. A cult for me is 149 00:09:21,544 --> 00:09:24,944 Speaker 6: actually what I was in. You can't question the leader, 150 00:09:25,463 --> 00:09:30,984 Speaker 6: you can't have different opinions on anything, and no matter what, 151 00:09:31,144 --> 00:09:33,224 Speaker 6: you have to toe the line. You have to believe this, 152 00:09:33,424 --> 00:09:36,144 Speaker 6: You have to believe that there's no questioning what is 153 00:09:36,184 --> 00:09:37,024 Speaker 6: being told to you. 154 00:09:37,144 --> 00:09:39,703 Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember reading what you some of your experience. 155 00:09:39,824 --> 00:09:41,784 Speaker 3: You talk about how even as you were still part 156 00:09:41,824 --> 00:09:44,224 Speaker 3: of the community, you would start to ask some questions, 157 00:09:44,223 --> 00:09:46,544 Speaker 3: but people really then turned against you and docs. 158 00:09:46,624 --> 00:09:46,824 Speaker 4: Yeah. 159 00:09:47,024 --> 00:09:50,304 Speaker 6: Yeah, I ended up getting docksed. There was an anonymous 160 00:09:50,304 --> 00:09:54,024 Speaker 6: police reports to my local sheriff's office, to the local 161 00:09:54,223 --> 00:09:58,384 Speaker 6: child's Protective Services unit. My house was attempted to be 162 00:09:58,504 --> 00:10:00,743 Speaker 6: broken into. I had to change my phone number a 163 00:10:00,784 --> 00:10:05,504 Speaker 6: couple times, my email addresses. It got very serious and 164 00:10:05,624 --> 00:10:09,503 Speaker 6: quite scary. Honestly, It's why I hesitated for so long 165 00:10:09,784 --> 00:10:12,863 Speaker 6: to become a public face. It wasn't until I met 166 00:10:12,984 --> 00:10:16,664 Speaker 6: Rich that I had the courage to step out from 167 00:10:16,784 --> 00:10:18,944 Speaker 6: an anonymous Twitter user. 168 00:10:19,223 --> 00:10:20,983 Speaker 2: He really gave me the courage to do that. 169 00:10:21,384 --> 00:10:24,064 Speaker 3: It's tough because they seem to go after people who 170 00:10:24,144 --> 00:10:26,664 Speaker 3: were I mean, even at the highest level, we're seeing 171 00:10:26,703 --> 00:10:30,344 Speaker 3: it right now with Marjorie Taylor Green. Right, Trump he 172 00:10:30,424 --> 00:10:33,864 Speaker 3: brings people in as long as they're very much fawning 173 00:10:33,904 --> 00:10:36,624 Speaker 3: towards him, but the minute they question anything, they become 174 00:10:36,664 --> 00:10:39,064 Speaker 3: an enemy. If you look at the people that they're 175 00:10:39,103 --> 00:10:41,743 Speaker 3: trying to send to jail, that they're putting, they got 176 00:10:41,744 --> 00:10:44,424 Speaker 3: the Justice Department going after right now. Almost all of 177 00:10:44,424 --> 00:10:47,104 Speaker 3: the our people he brought in, the FBI director Ray 178 00:10:48,664 --> 00:10:52,104 Speaker 3: Kelly Bolton, all these people were his own people, but 179 00:10:52,144 --> 00:10:55,024 Speaker 3: they if they disagree with them, they then become enemies. 180 00:10:55,024 --> 00:10:57,743 Speaker 3: And so even Marjorie Taylor Green has become an enemy. 181 00:10:57,784 --> 00:11:00,864 Speaker 3: So you know, it's a difficult thing because I think 182 00:11:00,864 --> 00:11:04,104 Speaker 3: it's has to do with I think Trump's psyche more 183 00:11:04,144 --> 00:11:05,424 Speaker 3: than even the movements. 184 00:11:05,703 --> 00:11:08,983 Speaker 6: But at the same aspect, they see him doing those things, 185 00:11:08,984 --> 00:11:11,983 Speaker 6: so they think it's okay to do it to everybody else, 186 00:11:12,064 --> 00:11:14,984 Speaker 6: which is why you're seeing Marjorie Taylor Green, for example, 187 00:11:15,103 --> 00:11:19,944 Speaker 6: being swarmed. Her comment sections are atrocious, they're horrifying. I 188 00:11:19,984 --> 00:11:23,544 Speaker 6: don't think that Marjorie Taylor Green is a great person, 189 00:11:24,304 --> 00:11:29,224 Speaker 6: but she has every room and every opportunity to change 190 00:11:29,223 --> 00:11:31,024 Speaker 6: her mind and change her stance on things, and I 191 00:11:31,024 --> 00:11:34,424 Speaker 6: would allow her. I would give her that grace. She 192 00:11:34,463 --> 00:11:37,344 Speaker 6: doesn't deserve this treatment. Nobody does. 193 00:11:37,864 --> 00:11:41,304 Speaker 7: I understand, guys, why people would look at MAGA and 194 00:11:41,343 --> 00:11:43,984 Speaker 7: say this is a cult. I can attest to the 195 00:11:44,024 --> 00:11:47,503 Speaker 7: fact that in my life there were some cult like aspects. 196 00:11:47,544 --> 00:11:52,104 Speaker 7: I always mentioned in this context that I had a 197 00:11:52,184 --> 00:11:56,503 Speaker 7: magas second family, and that second family oftentimes took precedence 198 00:11:56,544 --> 00:12:00,584 Speaker 7: over my own blood family, where I neglected husband and 199 00:12:00,824 --> 00:12:05,944 Speaker 7: familial and parental duties in the pursuit of this movement. 200 00:12:05,984 --> 00:12:09,503 Speaker 7: That I was a part of the reason I'm ambivalent 201 00:12:09,624 --> 00:12:13,743 Speaker 7: about referring to MAGA as a cult is largely informed 202 00:12:13,784 --> 00:12:16,064 Speaker 7: by my work at leaving MAGA and the kind of 203 00:12:16,103 --> 00:12:19,144 Speaker 7: advocacy that Erica has done for our organization as well. 204 00:12:19,744 --> 00:12:23,024 Speaker 7: We want to extract people out of MAGA, especially as 205 00:12:23,064 --> 00:12:25,184 Speaker 7: they start to have doubts, and we feel that if 206 00:12:25,223 --> 00:12:28,624 Speaker 7: we refer to people in MAGA as cultists, it's going 207 00:12:28,703 --> 00:12:30,743 Speaker 7: to make them dig their heels in. You know, when 208 00:12:30,784 --> 00:12:33,944 Speaker 7: I was in MAGA, we used to hear the cult language, 209 00:12:33,944 --> 00:12:37,264 Speaker 7: and we used to all the time say not even 210 00:12:38,184 --> 00:12:42,144 Speaker 7: half facetiously, but half seriously, that we weren't in the cult, 211 00:12:42,184 --> 00:12:44,463 Speaker 7: that everyone in the outside world was in the cult, 212 00:12:44,504 --> 00:12:47,583 Speaker 7: and that we weren't the crazies. Everyone else in the 213 00:12:47,583 --> 00:12:50,463 Speaker 7: outside world were the crazies. And as hard as it 214 00:12:50,544 --> 00:12:54,944 Speaker 7: is to leave MAGA, it's still, I believe, easier to 215 00:12:55,064 --> 00:12:58,144 Speaker 7: leave MAGA than it would be a bona fide cult 216 00:12:58,223 --> 00:13:01,384 Speaker 7: of which I've never been a part of. Unless we're 217 00:13:01,424 --> 00:13:03,984 Speaker 7: going to call my Catholic upbringing that, No, I shouldn't say. 218 00:13:04,544 --> 00:13:07,304 Speaker 7: That's a joke. Everyone that's a joke. One's a Catholic, 219 00:13:07,343 --> 00:13:09,944 Speaker 7: always a Catholic. My wife and my family's to hear 220 00:13:09,944 --> 00:13:11,904 Speaker 7: that and say, is that what you really think about 221 00:13:11,904 --> 00:13:15,024 Speaker 7: your Catholic upbringing? No, I don't really think of it 222 00:13:15,064 --> 00:13:18,344 Speaker 7: that way. But I've not been in an actual cult. 223 00:13:18,384 --> 00:13:22,544 Speaker 7: But I do see where people can think that about MAGA, 224 00:13:22,544 --> 00:13:25,664 Speaker 7: and there are certain traits about it that would match 225 00:13:26,024 --> 00:13:28,504 Speaker 7: most likely being in an actual cult. 226 00:13:28,944 --> 00:13:31,024 Speaker 4: Yeah, Rich you said something really interesting that I want 227 00:13:31,064 --> 00:13:34,824 Speaker 4: to touch back on. You mentioned Trump's comments about John McCain. 228 00:13:35,264 --> 00:13:38,384 Speaker 4: John McCain, you know, just to remind people, was shot 229 00:13:38,424 --> 00:13:41,464 Speaker 4: down over North Vietnam. He was tortured. He could have 230 00:13:41,544 --> 00:13:44,544 Speaker 4: left early the prison, he refused. He was stayed with 231 00:13:44,624 --> 00:13:47,464 Speaker 4: his men. This is a guy who was crippled lifelong, 232 00:13:47,664 --> 00:13:50,504 Speaker 4: and I've had the opportunity to meet with John McCain 233 00:13:51,304 --> 00:13:54,143 Speaker 4: inside CIA to brief him in Bagdad, a place that 234 00:13:54,264 --> 00:13:56,944 Speaker 4: was really dangerous at the time he flew in. He 235 00:13:56,984 --> 00:13:59,384 Speaker 4: was really interested in the truth. He was interested in 236 00:13:59,424 --> 00:14:02,384 Speaker 4: the people who were serving on the front lines, troops, 237 00:14:02,463 --> 00:14:06,384 Speaker 4: CIA officers. I have enormous respect for the guy. And 238 00:14:06,864 --> 00:14:08,983 Speaker 4: when Trump a draft died, or at least he never 239 00:14:09,024 --> 00:14:11,984 Speaker 4: served in the mid military called him a loser because 240 00:14:12,024 --> 00:14:15,103 Speaker 4: he was shot down and tortured by the North Vietnamese, 241 00:14:15,583 --> 00:14:17,624 Speaker 4: I thought, as so many of us have in so 242 00:14:17,703 --> 00:14:20,744 Speaker 4: many occasions, that's the end of it. Right, There's certain 243 00:14:20,784 --> 00:14:22,784 Speaker 4: third rails you can't touch, and one is like going 244 00:14:22,824 --> 00:14:26,104 Speaker 4: after genuine bona fide war heroes. I mean, you can 245 00:14:26,144 --> 00:14:28,624 Speaker 4: disagree with their political stance, but the fact that they 246 00:14:28,664 --> 00:14:33,464 Speaker 4: serve their country and sacrificed is undebatable. And yet that 247 00:14:33,584 --> 00:14:36,984 Speaker 4: didn't happen. And yet people who swore that they loved 248 00:14:37,024 --> 00:14:40,704 Speaker 4: the military and swore by American heroism and they just 249 00:14:40,744 --> 00:14:44,143 Speaker 4: abandoned John McKay and so I was wondering, what is 250 00:14:44,184 --> 00:14:46,304 Speaker 4: it for both of you? But that is an example 251 00:14:46,544 --> 00:14:51,264 Speaker 4: when a tenet of the community interferes with what you've 252 00:14:51,384 --> 00:14:55,584 Speaker 4: always believed in or interferes with basic reality. How do 253 00:14:55,624 --> 00:14:57,744 Speaker 4: you react to it. Is it like I've got to 254 00:14:58,024 --> 00:14:59,704 Speaker 4: I don't really believe it, but I've got to say 255 00:14:59,744 --> 00:15:02,024 Speaker 4: this in order to stay in the community, or do 256 00:15:02,064 --> 00:15:03,584 Speaker 4: you actually change your mind? 257 00:15:03,904 --> 00:15:07,984 Speaker 6: For example, we'll take McCain because that's relatively easy to 258 00:15:08,344 --> 00:15:08,864 Speaker 6: talk about. 259 00:15:09,024 --> 00:15:09,464 Speaker 2: Unfortunate. 260 00:15:10,464 --> 00:15:14,704 Speaker 6: So regardless of his war hero status, the being a 261 00:15:14,704 --> 00:15:17,864 Speaker 6: political prisoner, the being tortured, all of that, because Trump 262 00:15:17,904 --> 00:15:20,024 Speaker 6: called him out. Within the q Andon community, he was 263 00:15:20,064 --> 00:15:23,304 Speaker 6: a trader to his country and that was justifiable. The 264 00:15:23,344 --> 00:15:26,504 Speaker 6: way that it works within q Andon is Trump highlights 265 00:15:26,664 --> 00:15:30,984 Speaker 6: people who we need to dig into to find out 266 00:15:30,984 --> 00:15:34,424 Speaker 6: what traitorous actions they did against the United States and 267 00:15:34,464 --> 00:15:37,984 Speaker 6: the American people. So as soon as he says these 268 00:15:38,024 --> 00:15:40,944 Speaker 6: types of awful things about John McCain or any other 269 00:15:41,064 --> 00:15:45,424 Speaker 6: but any anybody else, they're a trader, they did something horrific. 270 00:15:45,504 --> 00:15:48,104 Speaker 6: They deserve to be put to death. That's why you'll 271 00:15:48,144 --> 00:15:51,624 Speaker 6: still see to this day they compare like Dan Crenshaw 272 00:15:51,704 --> 00:15:54,544 Speaker 6: to being the new John McCain. And then at John 273 00:15:54,624 --> 00:15:59,544 Speaker 6: McCain's funeral, the flag on his casket was wrinkled, so 274 00:15:59,664 --> 00:16:02,944 Speaker 6: that meant that he was executed in the q Andon world, 275 00:16:03,504 --> 00:16:07,464 Speaker 6: and because it's something that gets pushed and pushed and 276 00:16:07,464 --> 00:16:11,383 Speaker 6: pushed and pushed, it's that repetition that makes it believable, 277 00:16:11,424 --> 00:16:13,704 Speaker 6: and you just go along with it whether you believe 278 00:16:13,744 --> 00:16:17,064 Speaker 6: it or not. But eventually, if you are a true 279 00:16:17,104 --> 00:16:19,144 Speaker 6: believer like I was, you believe it. 280 00:16:19,504 --> 00:16:24,904 Speaker 7: Even before the Obamacare vote from Senator McCain, John McCain was, 281 00:16:25,464 --> 00:16:29,824 Speaker 7: amongst many in MAGA a hated person, and one of 282 00:16:29,864 --> 00:16:35,144 Speaker 7: the disparaging remarks that was often made about the late 283 00:16:35,224 --> 00:16:37,864 Speaker 7: John McCain and MAGA was that he was a globalist. 284 00:16:38,304 --> 00:16:42,104 Speaker 7: This was something that was which I'm thinking about again, 285 00:16:42,144 --> 00:16:47,384 Speaker 7: the conspiratorial way of how people opposed to Trump and 286 00:16:47,464 --> 00:16:51,024 Speaker 7: MAGA were, how they're identified, just like with Mitt Romney, 287 00:16:51,184 --> 00:16:54,424 Speaker 7: similar referred to as the same way as a globalist, 288 00:16:54,624 --> 00:16:58,664 Speaker 7: a crony capitalist, these kinds of monikers. But that's the 289 00:16:58,744 --> 00:17:01,904 Speaker 7: moment for me, the John McCain comment that I should 290 00:17:01,944 --> 00:17:06,024 Speaker 7: have run. Whatever curiosity I had about the Trump campaign 291 00:17:06,624 --> 00:17:09,584 Speaker 7: should have ceased at that moment because I knew that 292 00:17:09,584 --> 00:17:13,824 Speaker 7: that it was an unjustifiable comment. But I so quickly, 293 00:17:14,144 --> 00:17:17,263 Speaker 7: and I should preface by saying that none of anything 294 00:17:17,344 --> 00:17:19,984 Speaker 7: I say, I want to be construed as a self 295 00:17:19,984 --> 00:17:23,584 Speaker 7: defense because everyone has agency, and I made these choices 296 00:17:23,624 --> 00:17:27,264 Speaker 7: on my own. Nolan coaxed to course me into my support, 297 00:17:27,664 --> 00:17:31,744 Speaker 7: but I so quickly fell prey to the idea that 298 00:17:32,064 --> 00:17:35,584 Speaker 7: the Democrats would win in political power indefinitely and I 299 00:17:35,584 --> 00:17:37,944 Speaker 7: would be an irrelevant citizen of my country that I 300 00:17:37,944 --> 00:17:40,984 Speaker 7: look the other way on the John McCain statement. And 301 00:17:41,304 --> 00:17:45,664 Speaker 7: throughout Trump's presidency, there were several times that I had 302 00:17:45,904 --> 00:17:50,944 Speaker 7: very critical private conversations about Trump. Charlottesville was another one. 303 00:17:51,224 --> 00:17:53,984 Speaker 7: I was very close with someone who worked as a 304 00:17:54,024 --> 00:17:58,544 Speaker 7: paid staffer in Trump's campaign, and I remember when Charlottesville happened. 305 00:17:58,984 --> 00:18:01,424 Speaker 7: I'm a little embarrassed to talk about it the way 306 00:18:01,464 --> 00:18:05,944 Speaker 7: that I will, and ashamed because my concern wasn't the 307 00:18:06,024 --> 00:18:08,904 Speaker 7: fact that a woman, Heather Hire, had died and that 308 00:18:08,944 --> 00:18:13,744 Speaker 7: people were in My worry when Charlottesville happened was that 309 00:18:13,784 --> 00:18:17,024 Speaker 7: the press and Democrats and anti Trump Republicans were going 310 00:18:17,104 --> 00:18:20,424 Speaker 7: to label all of we and NAGA as neo Nazis 311 00:18:20,544 --> 00:18:25,224 Speaker 7: and white supremacists. So my concern was damage control. It 312 00:18:25,264 --> 00:18:29,384 Speaker 7: wasn't the fact that a woman was innocently run over 313 00:18:29,504 --> 00:18:33,264 Speaker 7: and murdered and that others committed violence. So I had 314 00:18:33,264 --> 00:18:38,024 Speaker 7: that kind of I remember we censured Trump privately, but 315 00:18:39,144 --> 00:18:42,824 Speaker 7: that's private. We never did it publicly. Maybe they hurt 316 00:18:42,864 --> 00:18:45,624 Speaker 7: our cult explanation and they're still thinking, well, it still 317 00:18:45,664 --> 00:18:48,464 Speaker 7: sounds like a cult. I'm going to give them fodder 318 00:18:48,464 --> 00:18:52,584 Speaker 7: on this one because you just never criticized Trump publicly. 319 00:18:53,024 --> 00:18:54,824 Speaker 7: You didn't do it because if you did it, you'd 320 00:18:54,824 --> 00:18:56,984 Speaker 7: be exiled, just like Eric is saying, and just like 321 00:18:57,024 --> 00:18:59,864 Speaker 7: we're seeing what Marjorie Taylor Green right now, if you 322 00:18:59,904 --> 00:19:04,064 Speaker 7: go and censure the president in your remarks publicly, you're 323 00:19:04,064 --> 00:19:07,584 Speaker 7: going to become persona and on grive. And that's because 324 00:19:08,384 --> 00:19:11,384 Speaker 7: you absolutely will be. Because Trump is the he's the 325 00:19:11,424 --> 00:19:14,944 Speaker 7: titular leader of the community. He's the one who took 326 00:19:15,504 --> 00:19:18,384 Speaker 7: a brand of right wing politics that are not new, 327 00:19:18,504 --> 00:19:22,064 Speaker 7: not novel, but he branded them. And for me, make 328 00:19:22,104 --> 00:19:25,744 Speaker 7: America Great Again was not nostalgic. I was thirty nine 329 00:19:25,824 --> 00:19:29,704 Speaker 7: years old in twenty sixteen. As delusional as it sounds, 330 00:19:29,984 --> 00:19:32,784 Speaker 7: Make America Great Again, for me was very forward facing 331 00:19:32,824 --> 00:19:35,864 Speaker 7: and progressive. I saw it even as a second kind 332 00:19:35,904 --> 00:19:40,304 Speaker 7: of founding of the country. So that's that was just 333 00:19:40,544 --> 00:19:45,504 Speaker 7: that was my fealty to Maga and whenever Trump was attacked, 334 00:19:45,984 --> 00:19:49,064 Speaker 7: we felt that we were attacked. So I even had 335 00:19:49,064 --> 00:19:51,704 Speaker 7: a phrase that I used for the media that I trademarked. 336 00:19:51,704 --> 00:19:55,783 Speaker 7: I called it the Democrat media industrial complex. You know 337 00:19:55,904 --> 00:19:58,904 Speaker 7: that it was in that trademark's now available if anyone 338 00:19:58,904 --> 00:20:01,744 Speaker 7: wants it. I don't have I don't have it anymore 339 00:20:01,864 --> 00:20:03,704 Speaker 7: because I don't think that there I don't think there 340 00:20:03,784 --> 00:20:07,184 Speaker 7: is a I don't believe that there's a liberal media conspiracy. 341 00:20:07,224 --> 00:20:09,104 Speaker 7: But I did believe that at one time. 342 00:20:20,624 --> 00:20:23,184 Speaker 3: Being part of a tribe, being part of something bigger 343 00:20:23,184 --> 00:20:26,144 Speaker 3: than yourself is powerful. Did you come out of it? 344 00:20:26,184 --> 00:20:28,584 Speaker 3: What was the hardest part about realizing you no longer 345 00:20:28,664 --> 00:20:30,944 Speaker 3: believed in it, or how you were coming out of it? 346 00:20:30,984 --> 00:20:32,544 Speaker 3: And we could tell there's probably a lot to this, 347 00:20:32,664 --> 00:20:35,304 Speaker 3: but just start to talk a little bit about like 348 00:20:35,344 --> 00:20:37,344 Speaker 3: when did you start to realize there was a problem 349 00:20:37,384 --> 00:20:40,144 Speaker 3: if you could justify all those things for so long, 350 00:20:40,224 --> 00:20:42,904 Speaker 3: when did it turn? For both the Maybi era, cos So, for. 351 00:20:42,904 --> 00:20:47,344 Speaker 6: Me, it was towards the tail end when the vaccines 352 00:20:47,384 --> 00:20:52,304 Speaker 6: were being discussed. Operation warp Speed was almost completed. That's 353 00:20:52,584 --> 00:20:56,264 Speaker 6: for me where my doubts started coming in. On one hand, 354 00:20:56,544 --> 00:21:01,784 Speaker 6: Trump was touting and just so excited about Operation Warp 355 00:21:01,824 --> 00:21:04,024 Speaker 6: Speed and the COVID vaccines that were going to be 356 00:21:04,064 --> 00:21:07,664 Speaker 6: coming to Fruition soon. And on the other hand, everybody 357 00:21:07,704 --> 00:21:09,504 Speaker 6: in my community was telling me that it was built 358 00:21:09,584 --> 00:21:14,104 Speaker 6: Gate's death job coming to populate us. So it was 359 00:21:14,184 --> 00:21:19,264 Speaker 6: a very confusing time for me. And then January sixth happened, 360 00:21:19,584 --> 00:21:23,504 Speaker 6: and I knew people who were there. I'd had an 361 00:21:23,544 --> 00:21:26,584 Speaker 6: opportunity to go, but I didn't have anybody to watch 362 00:21:26,584 --> 00:21:28,824 Speaker 6: my kids, and I couldn't leave them for a couple 363 00:21:28,864 --> 00:21:31,184 Speaker 6: of days by themselves, so I didn't go. But the 364 00:21:31,264 --> 00:21:34,104 Speaker 6: fact was that I could have met up with my 365 00:21:34,224 --> 00:21:38,864 Speaker 6: friends there and participated in what unfolded that I watched 366 00:21:38,904 --> 00:21:42,144 Speaker 6: live happening. It was just such a shock to the 367 00:21:42,184 --> 00:21:47,944 Speaker 6: system that I couldn't ignore my questions anymore. But a 368 00:21:47,984 --> 00:21:50,104 Speaker 6: lot of my doubt was around COVID because I had 369 00:21:50,144 --> 00:21:53,184 Speaker 6: actually gotten COVID and I got very, very sick. I 370 00:21:53,264 --> 00:21:56,384 Speaker 6: got pneumonia after I was recovering from the COVID and 371 00:21:56,424 --> 00:21:59,064 Speaker 6: I was sick for almost three months. It damn near 372 00:21:59,144 --> 00:22:02,824 Speaker 6: destroyed my lungs. So it wasn't just a flu, It 373 00:22:02,944 --> 00:22:05,504 Speaker 6: wasn't just you know, something that's going to go away 374 00:22:05,544 --> 00:22:08,504 Speaker 6: in fifteen days and go away. If we don't test, 375 00:22:09,624 --> 00:22:12,544 Speaker 6: possibly could have killed me. So I knew that we 376 00:22:12,544 --> 00:22:17,344 Speaker 6: were being misled somehow. And then the COVID vaccine talks started, 377 00:22:17,384 --> 00:22:19,264 Speaker 6: and I just I couldn't ignore it anymore. 378 00:22:19,584 --> 00:22:22,944 Speaker 7: So I like to paraphrase the late and venerable Ernest 379 00:22:22,984 --> 00:22:26,384 Speaker 7: Hemingway and say that my epiphany out of MAGA happened 380 00:22:26,384 --> 00:22:30,504 Speaker 7: gradually and then suddenly all at once. Trump's mismanagement of 381 00:22:30,584 --> 00:22:35,264 Speaker 7: COVID January sixth, the stolen election lies, those were all 382 00:22:35,424 --> 00:22:37,984 Speaker 7: some of the cracks, but they weren't enough for me. 383 00:22:38,704 --> 00:22:41,824 Speaker 7: The first accelerant for my leaving of MAGA was actually 384 00:22:41,824 --> 00:22:44,624 Speaker 7: not Donald Trump. It was my governor, Ron de Santees. 385 00:22:45,264 --> 00:22:48,424 Speaker 7: In the summer of twenty twenty one, if we recall, 386 00:22:48,504 --> 00:22:51,744 Speaker 7: there had been the delta surge of COVID and children 387 00:22:51,784 --> 00:22:55,064 Speaker 7: were getting sick, children were dying from the virus, and 388 00:22:55,184 --> 00:23:00,464 Speaker 7: Ron de Santees, rather than continue his vaccine advocacy, he 389 00:23:00,584 --> 00:23:04,824 Speaker 7: started platforming anti vaxers at his press conferences, people who 390 00:23:04,864 --> 00:23:08,584 Speaker 7: said that the COVID vaccine was changing people's RNA and 391 00:23:08,744 --> 00:23:11,624 Speaker 7: was deadlier than the virus. Now, I am a parent 392 00:23:11,784 --> 00:23:16,784 Speaker 7: of two children, and I recall when I would read 393 00:23:16,824 --> 00:23:20,504 Speaker 7: the stories about children getting sick and dying from COVID, 394 00:23:20,584 --> 00:23:23,224 Speaker 7: all I could think about was the suffering that those 395 00:23:23,304 --> 00:23:26,184 Speaker 7: kids went through, and the parents and the parents, the 396 00:23:26,224 --> 00:23:30,704 Speaker 7: bereaved parents, grieving and in mourning. So when Ron Desantas 397 00:23:30,784 --> 00:23:33,584 Speaker 7: did that when kids were getting sick, it really shocked me, 398 00:23:33,624 --> 00:23:38,824 Speaker 7: and I didn't understand why he took that approach. And 399 00:23:38,864 --> 00:23:42,504 Speaker 7: it was shortly thereafter that I did something that sounds 400 00:23:42,584 --> 00:23:46,104 Speaker 7: very simple but was very profoundly life changing and altering 401 00:23:46,104 --> 00:23:49,304 Speaker 7: for me, which was I diversified my news and information sources. 402 00:23:49,784 --> 00:23:53,584 Speaker 7: And as soon as I did that, I started to slowly, 403 00:23:54,504 --> 00:23:59,544 Speaker 7: painfully but liberatingly realize that so much of what it 404 00:23:59,664 --> 00:24:03,664 Speaker 7: was that I had believed and had created an identity around, 405 00:24:04,624 --> 00:24:08,184 Speaker 7: was not true. You know, the conspiracies I mentioned earlier 406 00:24:08,304 --> 00:24:13,904 Speaker 7: about gone and our kids being indoctrinated in white replacement theory, 407 00:24:14,064 --> 00:24:20,184 Speaker 7: these kinds of conspiracies that exist legion within MAGA. I 408 00:24:20,224 --> 00:24:23,184 Speaker 7: had a lot of late nights just myself and my thoughts, 409 00:24:23,224 --> 00:24:26,384 Speaker 7: where I would sit at my desk and I would say, 410 00:24:26,824 --> 00:24:29,984 Speaker 7: I have been believing lies for years, and not just 411 00:24:30,064 --> 00:24:33,624 Speaker 7: one or two wives, but years accumulated of them. And 412 00:24:33,664 --> 00:24:37,304 Speaker 7: the final straw for me was May twenty fourth, twenty 413 00:24:37,384 --> 00:24:39,824 Speaker 7: twenty two, which was the day of the Uvalde, Texas 414 00:24:39,824 --> 00:24:44,784 Speaker 7: school shooting, another incident where children died and were injured 415 00:24:44,784 --> 00:24:48,344 Speaker 7: and others died and were injured. And I knew exactly 416 00:24:49,104 --> 00:24:52,104 Speaker 7: how the Republican Party and Donald Trump were, how they 417 00:24:52,104 --> 00:24:54,664 Speaker 7: were going to respond to that incident, and they responded 418 00:24:54,744 --> 00:24:58,464 Speaker 7: exactly as I knew they would. They would nonchalantly accept 419 00:24:59,144 --> 00:25:03,664 Speaker 7: yet another incident of avoidable deaths and suffering, just like 420 00:25:03,824 --> 00:25:07,824 Speaker 7: ron De Santees did with the anti vaxxer, just like 421 00:25:07,944 --> 00:25:13,224 Speaker 7: January sixth of politically motivated violence and acceptance of avoidable 422 00:25:13,264 --> 00:25:17,624 Speaker 7: debts and suffering. And it was shortly after Uvalde that 423 00:25:17,664 --> 00:25:20,584 Speaker 7: I quietly left MAGA. I only told my wife and 424 00:25:20,624 --> 00:25:23,584 Speaker 7: a few other people. But there was something, guys, that 425 00:25:23,744 --> 00:25:27,304 Speaker 7: was really gnawing at me. After Uvalde and after I 426 00:25:27,424 --> 00:25:32,384 Speaker 7: silently left MAGA. I was always so unapologetically public in 427 00:25:32,464 --> 00:25:34,344 Speaker 7: my support for Trump. I felt that I needed to 428 00:25:34,384 --> 00:25:37,544 Speaker 7: be public and my renunciation of the movement, And it 429 00:25:37,624 --> 00:25:40,824 Speaker 7: was on August thirtieth of twenty twenty two, which is 430 00:25:40,864 --> 00:25:44,904 Speaker 7: what I call my leaving magaversary. I wrote a mea culpa, 431 00:25:45,584 --> 00:25:48,784 Speaker 7: and in that story I said that I was wrong 432 00:25:48,864 --> 00:25:51,304 Speaker 7: for supporting Trump and Maga, that I was sorry, and 433 00:25:51,344 --> 00:25:54,064 Speaker 7: that I wanted to apologize to anyone I may have 434 00:25:54,144 --> 00:25:56,944 Speaker 7: hurt with my words and deeds. And the God's honest 435 00:25:56,944 --> 00:25:59,584 Speaker 7: truth is that I never thought anybody would care. I 436 00:25:59,664 --> 00:26:02,023 Speaker 7: thought that I would just do it, I would close 437 00:26:02,064 --> 00:26:05,184 Speaker 7: that chapter of my life. It would bring the catharsis 438 00:26:05,224 --> 00:26:10,824 Speaker 7: of finally severing myself from that world and moving on. 439 00:26:11,264 --> 00:26:13,424 Speaker 7: But it turned out that people did care, and I 440 00:26:13,544 --> 00:26:18,184 Speaker 7: received instantaneously, one after another from friends and family of 441 00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:22,384 Speaker 7: people in MAGA. And I was completely naive and oblivious 442 00:26:22,424 --> 00:26:26,024 Speaker 7: to how many relationships had been torn asunder by this movement. 443 00:26:27,104 --> 00:26:29,584 Speaker 7: And I had a hand in that. I was culpable, 444 00:26:29,704 --> 00:26:35,144 Speaker 7: I was complicit. I was complicit in helping the president 445 00:26:35,384 --> 00:26:38,464 Speaker 7: divide the country and amplify conspiracy theories. 446 00:26:38,704 --> 00:26:41,184 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean reach individuals. It's a large country. You 447 00:26:41,224 --> 00:26:43,984 Speaker 3: can't put too much on yourself, but I think it 448 00:26:44,024 --> 00:26:46,824 Speaker 3: is important for the people who are listening to hear, 449 00:26:46,984 --> 00:26:48,904 Speaker 3: like if there are other people looking to come out 450 00:26:48,904 --> 00:26:51,944 Speaker 3: of the movement, you know, the guilt, the anger, the relief, 451 00:26:52,024 --> 00:26:54,504 Speaker 3: how you deal with it as a person. It sounds 452 00:26:54,544 --> 00:26:57,424 Speaker 3: like you had some guilt around it and how you 453 00:26:57,464 --> 00:26:59,504 Speaker 3: got over that guilt, and Erica, it sounds like you 454 00:26:59,544 --> 00:27:02,864 Speaker 3: started to question things. Did you find yourself all of 455 00:27:02,904 --> 00:27:05,784 Speaker 3: a sudden having all sorts of anger issues or was 456 00:27:05,824 --> 00:27:06,384 Speaker 3: it relieve? 457 00:27:06,704 --> 00:27:09,904 Speaker 6: At first, I was very hesitant. I thought again against 458 00:27:09,904 --> 00:27:13,504 Speaker 6: it as hard as I could, because I knew that 459 00:27:13,624 --> 00:27:16,744 Speaker 6: on the other side of my beliefs was things in 460 00:27:16,864 --> 00:27:21,104 Speaker 6: people and events that were truly horrific that I justified 461 00:27:21,464 --> 00:27:26,504 Speaker 6: for years, and I didn't want to face that. At first, 462 00:27:27,264 --> 00:27:32,104 Speaker 6: I was scared, but I found a great little support 463 00:27:32,184 --> 00:27:38,064 Speaker 6: system online, people who had been debunking QAnon conspiracies for 464 00:27:38,224 --> 00:27:42,144 Speaker 6: years at that point, and it took about probably six 465 00:27:42,184 --> 00:27:45,384 Speaker 6: months after I started talking to them, and then, like 466 00:27:45,544 --> 00:27:49,984 Speaker 6: Rich said, it was slow at first and then suddenly 467 00:27:50,024 --> 00:27:54,064 Speaker 6: it was all at the same time. I resisted hard though, 468 00:27:54,184 --> 00:27:57,864 Speaker 6: because I truly believed that the deep state had conspired 469 00:27:57,904 --> 00:28:02,104 Speaker 6: to get Trump out in twenty twenty, because the Democrats 470 00:28:02,104 --> 00:28:06,264 Speaker 6: wanted to unfold the sixteen Year Plan, which ushered in 471 00:28:06,304 --> 00:28:09,744 Speaker 6: globalism in the New World Order and pretty much just 472 00:28:09,824 --> 00:28:14,464 Speaker 6: capalist slavery and depopulation. I believed it to my core 473 00:28:14,984 --> 00:28:18,584 Speaker 6: and the things that I justified, the things I accepted, 474 00:28:18,624 --> 00:28:22,304 Speaker 6: the things in relationships that I fractured. 475 00:28:22,144 --> 00:28:23,024 Speaker 2: All that pain. 476 00:28:23,704 --> 00:28:25,904 Speaker 6: If I accepted that I was wrong this whole time, 477 00:28:25,944 --> 00:28:27,904 Speaker 6: all that pain was going to be front and center. 478 00:28:28,464 --> 00:28:31,264 Speaker 6: And it took a while to get to that point. 479 00:28:31,424 --> 00:28:35,384 Speaker 6: And then I spent probably a good year grieving, grieving, 480 00:28:35,664 --> 00:28:40,584 Speaker 6: re educating myself, diversifying my media, and take the people 481 00:28:40,624 --> 00:28:43,224 Speaker 6: around me, the people I spoke to, And it was 482 00:28:43,264 --> 00:28:48,064 Speaker 6: a long, very painful, very like agonizing to realize just 483 00:28:48,504 --> 00:28:49,624 Speaker 6: what I had believed in. 484 00:28:50,184 --> 00:28:54,104 Speaker 4: So bringing in John and I are CIA background, this 485 00:28:54,224 --> 00:28:58,504 Speaker 4: is really interesting because in our careers we dealt with 486 00:28:58,544 --> 00:29:01,704 Speaker 4: a lot of people, people who were in Al Qaeda, 487 00:29:02,184 --> 00:29:05,384 Speaker 4: people who were in the Russian system, the North Korean system, 488 00:29:05,864 --> 00:29:10,584 Speaker 4: and they tell similar stories that I remember sitting across 489 00:29:10,624 --> 00:29:14,344 Speaker 4: from one North Korean and he had too many drinks 490 00:29:14,344 --> 00:29:16,384 Speaker 4: and he really wasn't supposed to be talking to me. 491 00:29:16,424 --> 00:29:18,544 Speaker 4: Although he didn't know I was CIA at the time, 492 00:29:18,544 --> 00:29:22,464 Speaker 4: he probably could have suspected it, but he'd lowered his voice. 493 00:29:22,904 --> 00:29:26,224 Speaker 4: He looked around after telling the greatness of North Korea 494 00:29:26,264 --> 00:29:29,784 Speaker 4: how wonderful it was, and he said, it's really not 495 00:29:30,064 --> 00:29:34,704 Speaker 4: that great, the dear leader isn't as good as people say, 496 00:29:35,344 --> 00:29:38,784 Speaker 4: and he had just committed treason. He had committed a 497 00:29:40,024 --> 00:29:43,304 Speaker 4: capital crime by saying that he could have been ostracized. 498 00:29:43,344 --> 00:29:46,704 Speaker 4: It was dangerous to his family. And yet he clearly 499 00:29:46,744 --> 00:29:49,624 Speaker 4: had been saying to everyone who would listen, to his 500 00:29:49,664 --> 00:29:52,944 Speaker 4: own family, this is what I think, but inside he 501 00:29:53,104 --> 00:29:57,384 Speaker 4: knew it wasn't true. And oftentimes, at least in our 502 00:29:57,464 --> 00:30:01,024 Speaker 4: world of espionage, we look for people Russians, people inside 503 00:30:01,024 --> 00:30:03,784 Speaker 4: the Russian government of the Chinese government, who like, they 504 00:30:03,904 --> 00:30:06,904 Speaker 4: know it's not true, right, and they can't live with 505 00:30:07,024 --> 00:30:09,824 Speaker 4: the lie, and eventually they want to do so something 506 00:30:09,864 --> 00:30:12,984 Speaker 4: about it, and some go into internal exile, some just 507 00:30:13,104 --> 00:30:16,424 Speaker 4: never mind. Others actually wanted you know, it's like I 508 00:30:16,424 --> 00:30:18,184 Speaker 4: want to fight back, and you know, I'd like to 509 00:30:18,224 --> 00:30:21,144 Speaker 4: work with the US. John, You've had a lot of 510 00:30:21,224 --> 00:30:23,384 Speaker 4: experience with Russians who had been in a system, who 511 00:30:23,984 --> 00:30:26,664 Speaker 4: who were afraid to say what they really thought. And 512 00:30:26,704 --> 00:30:29,264 Speaker 4: some of our best spies, Russian spies, are people who 513 00:30:29,424 --> 00:30:30,864 Speaker 4: simply couldn't do it anymore. 514 00:30:32,224 --> 00:30:34,504 Speaker 3: They were living with that with Vladimir Putin. So when 515 00:30:34,544 --> 00:30:37,264 Speaker 3: your country fell apart is like a trauma. So these 516 00:30:37,264 --> 00:30:40,144 Speaker 3: people belonged to a country they thought was one of 517 00:30:40,144 --> 00:30:42,704 Speaker 3: the most powerful in the world. It was a superpower 518 00:30:43,024 --> 00:30:45,544 Speaker 3: and it fell apart. Can you imagine if you're a 519 00:30:45,624 --> 00:30:48,824 Speaker 3: person who's defending that, the trauma of trying to deal 520 00:30:48,864 --> 00:30:51,504 Speaker 3: with that. You can imagine if our country actually did 521 00:30:51,544 --> 00:30:53,824 Speaker 3: get into civil war and fell apart. But you see, 522 00:30:53,864 --> 00:30:55,944 Speaker 3: you think you feel guilty. Now imagine how you would 523 00:30:55,944 --> 00:30:57,824 Speaker 3: feel if that kind of happened. And so, you know, 524 00:30:57,944 --> 00:31:00,744 Speaker 3: dealing with those kind of people. Different people have different 525 00:31:00,864 --> 00:31:04,224 Speaker 3: ways of reacting to things. Some like Vladimir Putin doubled 526 00:31:04,224 --> 00:31:06,784 Speaker 3: down and said I'm going to be more aggressive and more. 527 00:31:07,024 --> 00:31:09,464 Speaker 3: Others that we try to deal with would say, hey, 528 00:31:09,624 --> 00:31:11,824 Speaker 3: you just want to be a normal country. What can 529 00:31:11,824 --> 00:31:14,464 Speaker 3: we do to move forward? And that's why it's really 530 00:31:14,464 --> 00:31:16,704 Speaker 3: interesting to talk to you guys, because you know, you 531 00:31:16,784 --> 00:31:19,024 Speaker 3: belong to one tribe and then you had to come 532 00:31:19,064 --> 00:31:21,504 Speaker 3: out of it. What's the next step do you, like, 533 00:31:21,704 --> 00:31:24,464 Speaker 3: are you looking for another tribe? Do you become a 534 00:31:24,504 --> 00:31:27,384 Speaker 3: democrat or do you just stay away from politics? What's 535 00:31:27,424 --> 00:31:28,144 Speaker 3: the next step? 536 00:31:28,584 --> 00:31:31,824 Speaker 7: I think of it as an odyssey, and I am 537 00:31:32,264 --> 00:31:35,704 Speaker 7: very lucky in that after I left Maga, I didn't 538 00:31:35,864 --> 00:31:38,704 Speaker 7: know where I was going to go, but I was 539 00:31:38,824 --> 00:31:44,144 Speaker 7: asked by various media and organizations to keep recounting my story. 540 00:31:44,544 --> 00:31:46,784 Speaker 7: So I kept doing it, and I did it because 541 00:31:46,944 --> 00:31:49,504 Speaker 7: I felt it was part of an ongoing reckoning to 542 00:31:49,544 --> 00:31:54,184 Speaker 7: continue to make amends for my past. So I found 543 00:31:54,264 --> 00:31:59,024 Speaker 7: myself telling my story over and over again, and it eventually, 544 00:31:59,424 --> 00:32:03,664 Speaker 7: from the telling of that story was born our organization 545 00:32:03,824 --> 00:32:07,784 Speaker 7: Leaving MAGA. And when I founded it, I never run 546 00:32:07,824 --> 00:32:10,744 Speaker 7: a nonprofit before. I didn't know what it would what 547 00:32:10,944 --> 00:32:13,864 Speaker 7: form it would take, but I remember thinking, there have 548 00:32:13,984 --> 00:32:17,704 Speaker 7: to be others out there who also left, you know, 549 00:32:17,904 --> 00:32:20,184 Speaker 7: it couldn't be just me. There's got to be others 550 00:32:20,224 --> 00:32:22,744 Speaker 7: out there. And Erica was one of the very, very 551 00:32:22,784 --> 00:32:26,624 Speaker 7: first leaders I ever met who left MAGA. When there's 552 00:32:26,664 --> 00:32:30,424 Speaker 7: a I would really encourage everyone to read her testimonial 553 00:32:30,424 --> 00:32:32,704 Speaker 7: at our Leaving Maga dot org site, and all of 554 00:32:32,784 --> 00:32:35,344 Speaker 7: our testimonials for that matter. It shows the courage that 555 00:32:35,424 --> 00:32:39,624 Speaker 7: so many went through to have to come to their 556 00:32:39,664 --> 00:32:42,304 Speaker 7: own realization that they needed to leave because being in 557 00:32:42,344 --> 00:32:46,824 Speaker 7: MAGA didn't comport any longer with their values. So, you know, 558 00:32:46,824 --> 00:32:49,864 Speaker 7: when it came to q and On, I knew of QAnon, 559 00:32:50,024 --> 00:32:52,544 Speaker 7: but when I was in Maga. Again, I was naive 560 00:32:52,584 --> 00:32:56,784 Speaker 7: and ignorant. I thought it was basically a hobby. I 561 00:32:56,784 --> 00:32:59,464 Speaker 7: didn't know anyone who was in QAnon. I remember Katie 562 00:32:59,464 --> 00:33:02,704 Speaker 7: Turr asking Trump in that interview before the election about 563 00:33:02,744 --> 00:33:05,744 Speaker 7: q and on and and I remember thinking, this, this 564 00:33:05,824 --> 00:33:08,584 Speaker 7: line of questioning is so silly. Q and On is 565 00:33:08,864 --> 00:33:12,064 Speaker 7: just a couple of people online in the bowels of 566 00:33:12,104 --> 00:33:16,544 Speaker 7: the Internet talking about whatever conspiracy that they are. And 567 00:33:16,584 --> 00:33:20,504 Speaker 7: then it was after my diversification of news and information 568 00:33:20,584 --> 00:33:23,184 Speaker 7: sources that I realized that not only was QAnon not 569 00:33:23,304 --> 00:33:25,904 Speaker 7: a hobby, but that it had the blessing of the 570 00:33:25,944 --> 00:33:28,864 Speaker 7: most powerful person in the history of the world, along 571 00:33:28,904 --> 00:33:32,144 Speaker 7: with groups like the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers. This 572 00:33:32,344 --> 00:33:34,824 Speaker 7: was another moment for me where it was like running 573 00:33:34,864 --> 00:33:38,064 Speaker 7: into a brick wall, where I realized that this conspiracy 574 00:33:38,104 --> 00:33:40,744 Speaker 7: that existed had reached all the way into the upper 575 00:33:40,784 --> 00:33:43,544 Speaker 7: echelons of the power structure of our country. 576 00:33:43,984 --> 00:33:47,064 Speaker 2: So for me, the most important thing after I left 577 00:33:47,304 --> 00:33:48,504 Speaker 2: was making amends. 578 00:33:48,944 --> 00:33:53,184 Speaker 6: I didn't care where I went, or I didn't honestly, 579 00:33:53,224 --> 00:33:57,024 Speaker 6: I didn't want to continue anything with politics. I wanted 580 00:33:57,024 --> 00:33:58,944 Speaker 6: to make my amends and I wanted to walk away 581 00:33:59,544 --> 00:34:02,584 Speaker 6: It was almost like I had to refigure out who 582 00:34:02,624 --> 00:34:06,704 Speaker 6: I was because it consumed every part of me. And 583 00:34:07,464 --> 00:34:10,823 Speaker 6: after a while I realized that but for me, making 584 00:34:10,864 --> 00:34:15,783 Speaker 6: amends wasn't enough. That I needed to not only tell 585 00:34:15,784 --> 00:34:18,624 Speaker 6: my story and reach out to people who are still 586 00:34:18,623 --> 00:34:22,343 Speaker 6: in or who have questions, or people on the other 587 00:34:22,424 --> 00:34:26,064 Speaker 6: side of the political spectrum who don't understand why their 588 00:34:26,104 --> 00:34:30,663 Speaker 6: loved one has left them behind for this movement that 589 00:34:30,904 --> 00:34:34,703 Speaker 6: is just based on conspiracies. So I decided that I 590 00:34:34,783 --> 00:34:37,704 Speaker 6: was going as long as there was people who believed 591 00:34:37,743 --> 00:34:40,704 Speaker 6: in Q andon, I was going to continue to speak 592 00:34:40,703 --> 00:34:44,504 Speaker 6: out against it. Whether that's on Twitter or Facebook or 593 00:34:44,584 --> 00:34:46,584 Speaker 6: Reddit or wherever, on podcasts. 594 00:34:46,584 --> 00:34:47,304 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. 595 00:34:47,504 --> 00:34:50,064 Speaker 6: As long as there's people in there, there's still hope 596 00:34:50,104 --> 00:34:57,584 Speaker 6: to get them out. 597 00:35:04,183 --> 00:35:07,944 Speaker 4: So I did want to ask anti Semitism is that 598 00:35:08,263 --> 00:35:10,823 Speaker 4: inside of Q and on in the MAGA movement. I've 599 00:35:10,824 --> 00:35:14,024 Speaker 4: been outsider. I hear different things. There's struggles going on 600 00:35:14,104 --> 00:35:19,384 Speaker 4: with Tucker Carlson plantforming Flentes, who is a Holocaust denied 601 00:35:19,464 --> 00:35:23,343 Speaker 4: or a clear anti semi. Are there factions within the 602 00:35:23,384 --> 00:35:26,743 Speaker 4: MEGA movements pro Israels, more anti Semitic, more sort of 603 00:35:26,783 --> 00:35:30,544 Speaker 4: pro Nazis, more or less, and how would you differentiate 604 00:35:30,584 --> 00:35:33,343 Speaker 4: some of the streams within the current mega movement. 605 00:35:33,223 --> 00:35:37,984 Speaker 6: Specifically for q Andon, QAnon is roughly based on hundreds 606 00:35:38,024 --> 00:35:41,384 Speaker 6: and thousands of years of old anti Semitic tropes. 607 00:35:42,183 --> 00:35:44,544 Speaker 2: It is built on anti Semitism. 608 00:35:44,944 --> 00:35:46,623 Speaker 6: You may not be aware of that when you first 609 00:35:46,663 --> 00:35:48,903 Speaker 6: start to believe it, but coming out of it and 610 00:35:48,944 --> 00:35:51,743 Speaker 6: you learn about all of these tropes that have gone around, 611 00:35:51,783 --> 00:35:55,544 Speaker 6: all this anti Semitism, all this Jewish hatred over centuries 612 00:35:55,944 --> 00:36:00,304 Speaker 6: is exactly similar things that people in QAnon believe currently 613 00:36:00,344 --> 00:36:05,744 Speaker 6: now though since October seventh with Israel and Hamas. Prior 614 00:36:05,824 --> 00:36:09,464 Speaker 6: to that, there was certain groups in q and I 615 00:36:09,824 --> 00:36:13,344 Speaker 6: who believed that saving Israel for last meant that the 616 00:36:13,464 --> 00:36:16,703 Speaker 6: Jewish people were going to be taken care of, that 617 00:36:16,783 --> 00:36:19,744 Speaker 6: their lives were going to be exposed, that their control 618 00:36:19,783 --> 00:36:23,664 Speaker 6: over our country was going to end, and that Trump 619 00:36:23,703 --> 00:36:28,263 Speaker 6: was going to expose all of us. However, since October seventh, 620 00:36:28,703 --> 00:36:33,064 Speaker 6: there has been a clear divide between people in QAnon 621 00:36:33,223 --> 00:36:37,263 Speaker 6: who truly believe that Israel is doing the right thing, 622 00:36:37,424 --> 00:36:39,783 Speaker 6: Israel has the right to exist, nata Na who is 623 00:36:39,824 --> 00:36:43,104 Speaker 6: not doing anything wrong, et cetera, et cetera, And then 624 00:36:43,143 --> 00:36:47,424 Speaker 6: there are people who have gotten fed up with Trump 625 00:36:47,504 --> 00:36:51,423 Speaker 6: supporting Israel, and now they're converging onto the path of 626 00:36:51,663 --> 00:36:54,183 Speaker 6: Nick Fuintees, where they're denying the Holocaust. 627 00:36:54,384 --> 00:36:57,143 Speaker 2: Their Hitler was right, we need another Hitler. 628 00:36:57,183 --> 00:37:02,903 Speaker 6: We need to, you know, purge every Jewish person from local, state, 629 00:37:02,984 --> 00:37:06,263 Speaker 6: federal government. It's very extreme in some aspects. And then 630 00:37:06,263 --> 00:37:12,703 Speaker 6: there's certain QAnon followers who just believe that q is 631 00:37:12,743 --> 00:37:18,223 Speaker 6: saving Israel for last, that the fake Jews, which in 632 00:37:18,304 --> 00:37:21,784 Speaker 6: certain aspects are called the Sabataean Jews or Kazarian Jews 633 00:37:22,504 --> 00:37:26,384 Speaker 6: in their speak, that they're going to be exposed, that 634 00:37:26,384 --> 00:37:28,904 Speaker 6: they're not real Jews, but they pretend to be Jews 635 00:37:29,024 --> 00:37:32,263 Speaker 6: to control everything. One of the last interactions that I 636 00:37:32,384 --> 00:37:36,424 Speaker 6: had with somebody who is in a very vocal Nazi 637 00:37:36,464 --> 00:37:40,464 Speaker 6: now he's involved with a lot of the kind of 638 00:37:40,504 --> 00:37:43,463 Speaker 6: Patriot Front groups where they go out and they put 639 00:37:43,544 --> 00:37:46,383 Speaker 6: stickers everywhere in White Lives Matter. He's involved with those 640 00:37:46,424 --> 00:37:48,743 Speaker 6: types of things now. One of the last interactions I 641 00:37:48,824 --> 00:37:50,984 Speaker 6: had with him before I left was him sending me 642 00:37:51,544 --> 00:37:55,863 Speaker 6: translated Hitler speeches into English, telling me that the deep 643 00:37:55,904 --> 00:37:58,864 Speaker 6: State had gotten to Hitler and that they're going to 644 00:37:58,904 --> 00:38:01,544 Speaker 6: do the same thing tom before. 645 00:38:01,263 --> 00:38:04,183 Speaker 3: The deep state existed. He somehow got to Hitler and 646 00:38:04,263 --> 00:38:04,584 Speaker 3: that they. 647 00:38:04,623 --> 00:38:08,384 Speaker 6: Framed him to have killed six million Jews. And I'm like, no, 648 00:38:08,864 --> 00:38:13,544 Speaker 6: because I'm abs with topics. Okay, I find something I 649 00:38:13,584 --> 00:38:16,663 Speaker 6: want to learn about and I will learn it to death. Titanic, 650 00:38:16,703 --> 00:38:20,903 Speaker 6: World War Two, the Holocaust, Cambodian genocide. It's just who 651 00:38:20,944 --> 00:38:23,464 Speaker 6: I am, and I knew right then and there like 652 00:38:23,783 --> 00:38:26,784 Speaker 6: something's wrong here. I don't support Hitler. 653 00:38:26,984 --> 00:38:31,183 Speaker 7: There is a form of anti Semitism that happens in 654 00:38:31,263 --> 00:38:34,024 Speaker 7: Maga that I think a lot of adherents don't realize 655 00:38:34,024 --> 00:38:36,824 Speaker 7: their trafficking in and I'll give you a specific example 656 00:38:36,864 --> 00:38:39,943 Speaker 7: of it. We used to say all the time that 657 00:38:40,344 --> 00:38:46,064 Speaker 7: democratic voting Jews were not real Jews, and that democratic 658 00:38:46,143 --> 00:38:50,904 Speaker 7: voting Christians were not real Christians. And anyone who was 659 00:38:50,984 --> 00:38:53,903 Speaker 7: with us on the Maga side, we were the real Americans. 660 00:38:54,424 --> 00:38:56,784 Speaker 7: We were on the right side of history, and everyone 661 00:38:56,864 --> 00:38:59,984 Speaker 7: against us they were the fake Americans, and they were 662 00:39:00,024 --> 00:39:03,104 Speaker 7: on the wrong side of history. And anyone who was 663 00:39:03,183 --> 00:39:06,064 Speaker 7: not one hundred percent with us, they were one hundred 664 00:39:06,104 --> 00:39:08,664 Speaker 7: percent against us. It didn't matter if they were ninety 665 00:39:08,743 --> 00:39:11,823 Speaker 7: nine point nine nine with us. You were either with 666 00:39:11,904 --> 00:39:14,224 Speaker 7: us or you were against us. And so the idea 667 00:39:14,304 --> 00:39:19,664 Speaker 7: that we cast aspersions on someone's faith because they don't 668 00:39:19,743 --> 00:39:23,464 Speaker 7: vote a certain way, and in particular with democratic Jews, 669 00:39:24,104 --> 00:39:27,424 Speaker 7: that to me is a form of anti Semitism that 670 00:39:27,504 --> 00:39:30,743 Speaker 7: I think is overlooked amongst those in Maga. And I 671 00:39:30,783 --> 00:39:34,224 Speaker 7: think not to defend, but I think most in Maga 672 00:39:34,263 --> 00:39:38,024 Speaker 7: who engage in that kind of rhetoric, I don't think 673 00:39:38,024 --> 00:39:41,143 Speaker 7: they're thinking of it that way. They're not thinking of 674 00:39:41,183 --> 00:39:44,343 Speaker 7: it as antisemitic. They're thinking of it as who's on 675 00:39:44,424 --> 00:39:47,624 Speaker 7: the right side of history and who's the existential threat? 676 00:39:47,944 --> 00:39:50,424 Speaker 7: Because I looked at if I had met you guys 677 00:39:50,424 --> 00:39:52,904 Speaker 7: when I was in Maga, and if I met Erica 678 00:39:53,024 --> 00:39:56,143 Speaker 7: right now and I was still in Maga, I would 679 00:39:56,183 --> 00:40:00,183 Speaker 7: wump you into the one big category of being an 680 00:40:00,263 --> 00:40:04,183 Speaker 7: existential threat to my life, my livelihood, my family, and 681 00:40:04,223 --> 00:40:07,424 Speaker 7: my country. That's what I would think, without knowing anything 682 00:40:07,464 --> 00:40:10,183 Speaker 7: about you, that's what I would say about. So this 683 00:40:10,344 --> 00:40:13,903 Speaker 7: idea of who's a real Jew and who's a fake Jew, 684 00:40:13,944 --> 00:40:16,223 Speaker 7: and who's a real Christian and a fake and a 685 00:40:16,223 --> 00:40:19,584 Speaker 7: fake Christian, that that went on all the time when 686 00:40:19,623 --> 00:40:21,464 Speaker 7: I was in Maga. There was even a movement. 687 00:40:21,504 --> 00:40:21,903 Speaker 2: It didn't. 688 00:40:22,464 --> 00:40:25,584 Speaker 7: It gained very little traction, and to my knowledge, it's 689 00:40:25,743 --> 00:40:29,504 Speaker 7: not even really around anymore. There was a group called Jexit, 690 00:40:30,344 --> 00:40:35,064 Speaker 7: which was Jews Exiting the Democratic Party. Yeah, Jexit. You know, 691 00:40:35,104 --> 00:40:38,783 Speaker 7: I knew people who who had founded this organization, and 692 00:40:39,424 --> 00:40:42,944 Speaker 7: you know, talking about how you can't be a Democrat 693 00:40:43,104 --> 00:40:45,064 Speaker 7: and be a Jew at the same time. And I 694 00:40:45,183 --> 00:40:47,863 Speaker 7: was all about it. I said, yeah, I said, look 695 00:40:47,864 --> 00:40:50,183 Speaker 7: at these, look at these, look at Jews, and look 696 00:40:50,183 --> 00:40:52,743 Speaker 7: at Black Americans, and look at minorities, the way they 697 00:40:52,783 --> 00:40:55,944 Speaker 7: vote Democratic and they vote against their own interests. I 698 00:40:56,183 --> 00:41:00,584 Speaker 7: was engaging in those kinds of tropes as well without 699 00:41:00,663 --> 00:41:03,223 Speaker 7: me realizing it. And again I don't say that as 700 00:41:03,263 --> 00:41:06,664 Speaker 7: a self defense. It's that it was my own obliviousness 701 00:41:06,663 --> 00:41:08,623 Speaker 7: and ignorance that spoke that way. 702 00:41:08,904 --> 00:41:11,944 Speaker 3: Are you finding that more and more people are interested 703 00:41:12,143 --> 00:41:14,584 Speaker 3: in what you're selling? Are you finding that more people 704 00:41:14,623 --> 00:41:17,703 Speaker 3: are starting to come around? I mean, I think in 705 00:41:17,743 --> 00:41:20,263 Speaker 3: the regular media you hear because of the elections in 706 00:41:20,263 --> 00:41:23,824 Speaker 3: New Jersey and Virginia, and people think that they're starting 707 00:41:23,824 --> 00:41:26,064 Speaker 3: to there's some movement away from Trump. But that's just 708 00:41:26,104 --> 00:41:28,943 Speaker 3: in the mainstream media. I wonder if you're seeing it 709 00:41:29,263 --> 00:41:29,943 Speaker 3: where you are. 710 00:41:30,223 --> 00:41:37,104 Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely so, Rich and I are in many group 711 00:41:37,223 --> 00:41:40,783 Speaker 6: chats together, and if I was to look through my 712 00:41:40,824 --> 00:41:44,904 Speaker 6: messages right now, I probably have at least ten different 713 00:41:44,904 --> 00:41:48,823 Speaker 6: group chats where we had to keep adding people to 714 00:41:49,024 --> 00:41:51,903 Speaker 6: them because there's so many people who are reaching out 715 00:41:51,944 --> 00:41:55,383 Speaker 6: to Rich who have decided that they're done and they 716 00:41:55,424 --> 00:41:58,623 Speaker 6: want to tell their story. But also separately, for me, 717 00:41:59,304 --> 00:42:03,704 Speaker 6: I keep a lot of my conversation on Twitter with people, 718 00:42:04,064 --> 00:42:08,023 Speaker 6: and at least once a week I have somebody who 719 00:42:08,064 --> 00:42:11,984 Speaker 6: will comment under something or tending me a message, and 720 00:42:12,344 --> 00:42:13,504 Speaker 6: we talk. 721 00:42:13,424 --> 00:42:16,503 Speaker 2: And I let them know when you're ready, I'm here. 722 00:42:17,024 --> 00:42:19,263 Speaker 6: Granted, getting somebody out of Quenon is a little bit 723 00:42:19,544 --> 00:42:23,944 Speaker 6: harder than most other things because it's been so long 724 00:42:24,384 --> 00:42:27,943 Speaker 6: since they've been involved with the conspiracies, and normally there's 725 00:42:27,984 --> 00:42:31,544 Speaker 6: a trauma underneath and it has to be addressed as well, 726 00:42:31,703 --> 00:42:35,783 Speaker 6: So that's a little harder than what Rich does so eloquently. 727 00:42:36,104 --> 00:42:38,424 Speaker 7: Well, thank you Erica for saying that, And I'm glad 728 00:42:38,424 --> 00:42:41,024 Speaker 7: that all of you are mentioning trauma because being in 729 00:42:41,104 --> 00:42:45,584 Speaker 7: Mega is a traumatic experience and having left MAGA was 730 00:42:45,623 --> 00:42:48,663 Speaker 7: good for my soul and for my psyche. It improved 731 00:42:49,263 --> 00:42:53,344 Speaker 7: and resurrected relationships that I had lost with people I 732 00:42:53,464 --> 00:42:56,904 Speaker 7: fell out of contact with. Why because they were Blue voters, 733 00:42:56,984 --> 00:42:58,703 Speaker 7: even though I had known them for years and they 734 00:42:58,703 --> 00:43:01,424 Speaker 7: were important people in my life. But I'm happy to 735 00:43:01,504 --> 00:43:04,984 Speaker 7: report that leaving MEGA as an organization has never been busier. 736 00:43:06,064 --> 00:43:09,263 Speaker 7: We have testimonials we're working on at the moment. We 737 00:43:09,864 --> 00:43:14,663 Speaker 7: have some twenty twenty four MAGA supporters who have come 738 00:43:14,703 --> 00:43:20,223 Speaker 7: to us privately and they're working through their own doubts 739 00:43:20,304 --> 00:43:25,223 Speaker 7: and their own trauma. So between our public speaking, our 740 00:43:25,263 --> 00:43:30,463 Speaker 7: media requests, our fundraising, the testimonials we're working on, we're 741 00:43:30,504 --> 00:43:34,744 Speaker 7: growing our staff. As an organization, We've never been more active, 742 00:43:34,904 --> 00:43:37,303 Speaker 7: And I don't take any credit for that. That's really 743 00:43:37,384 --> 00:43:40,703 Speaker 7: a reflection of our leaving MAGA leaders like Erica and 744 00:43:40,783 --> 00:43:44,623 Speaker 7: all of the others, who have so eloquently given witness 745 00:43:45,024 --> 00:43:49,303 Speaker 7: to their own stories. So I would encourage everyone who's 746 00:43:49,344 --> 00:43:53,064 Speaker 7: listening to read those stories. Read Erica's, read the others. 747 00:43:53,104 --> 00:43:56,064 Speaker 7: We've got people who are in Christian nationalist churches. We 748 00:43:56,223 --> 00:43:59,944 Speaker 7: have leaders who were at the Capitol on January sixth 749 00:43:59,944 --> 00:44:03,183 Speaker 7: and served time and rejected Trump's pardon. We have a 750 00:44:03,183 --> 00:44:07,504 Speaker 7: black American who so desperately sought community as a MAGA 751 00:44:07,504 --> 00:44:11,303 Speaker 7: supporter that he wore a Confederate flag wristband as part 752 00:44:11,344 --> 00:44:13,623 Speaker 7: of his time in MAGA. I think people will find 753 00:44:13,663 --> 00:44:17,623 Speaker 7: these stories to be quite uplifting and inspirational, and so 754 00:44:17,663 --> 00:44:19,984 Speaker 7: everyone can reach out to us and find us at 755 00:44:20,064 --> 00:44:23,424 Speaker 7: Leavingmaga dot org. My email is on our contact page 756 00:44:23,464 --> 00:44:26,663 Speaker 7: and yes I actually do check my email, so anyone 757 00:44:26,703 --> 00:44:29,064 Speaker 7: who reaches out to us will make sure to acknowledge 758 00:44:29,064 --> 00:44:29,703 Speaker 7: the message. 759 00:44:29,864 --> 00:44:32,623 Speaker 3: Now, thank you guys both. What you've done is difficult 760 00:44:32,703 --> 00:44:35,343 Speaker 3: and it's hard. It's hard to leave. Your experience I 761 00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:37,143 Speaker 3: think will be useful for other people. 762 00:44:37,263 --> 00:44:39,223 Speaker 4: Thank you very much for com on. Thank you very 763 00:44:39,304 --> 00:44:41,223 Speaker 4: much for what you guys are both doing and you 764 00:44:41,223 --> 00:44:42,023 Speaker 4: are going to say it. 765 00:44:46,464 --> 00:44:51,544 Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry Osha, John Cipher, 766 00:44:51,783 --> 00:44:53,064 Speaker 8: and Jonathan Stern. 767 00:44:53,263 --> 00:44:55,623 Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 768 00:44:55,864 --> 00:44:59,663 Speaker 8: Mission Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable 769 00:44:59,703 --> 00:45:01,623 Speaker 8: pictures for iHeart Podcasts