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Speaker 2: It snowed all night in Washington. Not a fit night
Speaker 2: out for man nor beast, to quote the great WC. Fields.
Speaker 2: They even put the Capitol police in hotels because what
Speaker 2: is about to happen today must happen by the Constitution.
Speaker 3: The certification of the presidential vote.
Speaker 2: What's happening right now, the quick meeting on the House side,
Speaker 2: same for the Senate. They get together, everybody says hello,
Speaker 2: and a little bit less than an hour from now
Speaker 2: one pm Eastern time, they will gabble in a joint
Speaker 2: session of Congress to get this job done.
Speaker 3: Now, a lot of us learned about January four years ago.
Speaker 2: This is something that typically wouldn't even make the news until,
Speaker 2: of course, what happened in twenty twenty. They're going to
Speaker 2: carry those ballots, remember that in the wooden boxes across
Speaker 2: the rotunda. They will count, they will unseal them, count them,
Speaker 2: and then certify them, with the Vice president who just
Speaker 2: lost the election presiding over the process again one pm
Speaker 2: Eastern time. That's right, is the outgoing president of the Senate.
Speaker 2: It is Kamala Harris's job to preside over the count here.
Speaker 2: It is also apparently Kamala Harris's job, along with many
Speaker 2: other Democrats, to remind everyone today about what happened four
Speaker 2: years ago. Joe Biden had an op ed this morning
Speaker 2: that you might have heard about. Kamala Harris took to
Speaker 2: a video to speak to people ahead of today's process,
Speaker 2: again mandated by the Constitution.
Speaker 4: Here's the Vice President today at the United States Capital.
Speaker 4: I will perform my constitutional duty as Vice President of
Speaker 4: the United States to certify the results of the twenty
Speaker 4: twenty four election. This duty is a safe obligation one
Speaker 4: I will uphold, guided by love of country, loyalty to
Speaker 4: our Constitution, and my unwavering faith in the American people.
Speaker 4: As we have seen, our democracy can be fragile, and
Speaker 4: it is up to then each one of us to
Speaker 4: stand up for our most cherished principles.
Speaker 2: Serious production values. Multiple camera angles on the Vice President.
Speaker 2: As I mentioned, Joe Biden, writing an op ed this morning,
Speaker 2: in which he refers to what took place four years ago.
Speaker 3: Quote.
Speaker 2: For much of our history, this proceeding was treated as
Speaker 2: pro forma, a routine act, he writes. But after what
Speaker 2: we all witnessed on January sixth, twenty twenty one, we
Speaker 2: know we can never again take it for granted unquote.
Speaker 2: Glad to say that we have Mora Gillespie with us.
Speaker 2: Of course, spent a good chunk of her career in
Speaker 2: the House of Representatives of veteran John Bayner's Speaker's Office,
Speaker 2: founder Principal Bluestax strat to use now she is a
Speaker 2: Republican strategist as the way forward more.
Speaker 3: It's great to see you.
Speaker 2: January sixth is here, and I just wonder before we
Speaker 2: get into the details, what's going through your mind today.
Speaker 5: It's really an important reminder, I think, just for everyone,
Speaker 5: whether you're a republican, independent democrat, the peaceful transfer power
Speaker 5: is a cornerstone of our democracy, and the very fact
Speaker 5: that it was you know, obstructed in ways last you know,
Speaker 5: last time in twenty twenty one should be jarring, no
Speaker 5: matter which side of the aisle you sit on, because
Speaker 5: when that happened and what the insurrection did. It's it
Speaker 5: is hard for me to put into words the feeling
Speaker 5: that I had watching this play out, knowing what was coming,
Speaker 5: and then watching a play out the way that it did.
Speaker 5: It's hard to really impress upon people how important it
Speaker 5: is to be objective, because I think that if if
Speaker 5: it wasn't Trump supporters who were doing this, and I would,
Speaker 5: let's say it was you know, Harris Biden, people are
Speaker 5: out there today and we're storming the Capitol, those same
Speaker 5: trap for supporters would be furious and would be screaming
Speaker 5: from the rooftops that they should be all hat accountable.
Speaker 5: And I think, then again, having your objective hats on
Speaker 5: as opposed to your partisan hats on is going to
Speaker 5: be really important as we move forward. But marking this
Speaker 5: day and not forgetting what happened four years ago is
Speaker 5: incredibly important, and I hope people will take time to
Speaker 5: remember that.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of talk about whitewashing right what
Speaker 2: happened on January sixth, There has been a bit of
Speaker 2: revisionist history. Donald Trump calls it a day of love
Speaker 2: when he talks about this. We also know that he's
Speaker 2: promised to pardon the January six rioters and there are
Speaker 2: a lot of them. I don't know if this is
Speaker 2: going to be in across the board. There have been
Speaker 2: questions about how Donald Trump would handle that. But more
Speaker 2: than fifteen hundred people were charged with crimes tied to
Speaker 2: January sixth Nearly a thousand have pleaded guilty. I'm guessing
Speaker 2: you don't think they should be pardoned more.
Speaker 3: You can speak to that.
Speaker 2: But we heard as well today from the captain of
Speaker 2: the Capitol Police, who is not in favor obviously of
Speaker 2: seeing them part. And what message would that send if
Speaker 2: Donald Trump makes good on that.
Speaker 5: Promise as sets us up as a country for mayhem,
Speaker 5: Because if you can't hold the people who again, if
Speaker 5: you were one of those people over the summer who
Speaker 5: were furious at these college students who are breaking into buildings,
Speaker 5: bashing windows and trying to take over their campus buildings,
Speaker 5: and you said they need to be held accountable, they
Speaker 5: should all be arrested, then you should have the same
Speaker 5: exact feelings about those who broke into the Capitol. Beat
Speaker 5: down our officers both that's your Politan police in the
Speaker 5: DC area as well as Capitol Police officers to stop
Speaker 5: a proceeding that is again the cornerstone of our democracy.
Speaker 5: So you can't cry welf at one thing and then
Speaker 5: turn a blind eye to the other. They're not on
Speaker 5: the same level. But if you're opposed to people breaking
Speaker 5: into buildings and smashing in windows, then you should think
Speaker 5: that they should be held accoutable in the same ways.
Speaker 5: And so for President Trump to go ahead and issue
Speaker 5: a blanket pardons is what just a terrible look for
Speaker 5: their justice system. But two, I do you think that
Speaker 5: people there are certain cases that can be looked into.
Speaker 5: I'm not saying, you know, I'm not opposed that I
Speaker 5: think our friminal justice system needs to be looked into.
Speaker 5: I think there are certain cases that can be looked
Speaker 5: into as far as how far their sentencess go. But
Speaker 5: to issue a blanket pardon is so dangerous and set
Speaker 5: this terrible precedent for our country moving forward.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm guessing that Adam Kinsinger doesn't like the idea.
Speaker 2: You worked for the former Congressman Mara. Of course, he
Speaker 2: was on the January sixth committee. We don't know Donald
Speaker 2: Trump has threatened to prosecute some of the folks or
Speaker 2: all of them who were involved in that investigation. Is
Speaker 2: there a place in the Republican Party for the Adam
Speaker 2: Kinsingers of the world, John Katco's, the Mitt Romneys of
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 5: There is they want to be. My thing has always been,
Speaker 5: you know, one the idea about not the idea, but
Speaker 5: what happened on January sixth. You can take a strong
Speaker 5: stance against that and say and call it out and
Speaker 5: say that it was wrong, and say that it was
Speaker 5: a violation of what we stand for as a nation
Speaker 5: and for a democracy, and still believe in Republican policies
Speaker 5: and put forward ideas conservative values and still identify as
Speaker 5: a Republican Again. I just I want to reiterate that
Speaker 5: what happened on January sixth, whether Republican or Democrats, should
Speaker 5: appall you should truly be something that can never happen again.
Speaker 5: And that doesn't make you any less Republican by saying that,
Speaker 5: because again Roles reversed. If a Democrat mob was coming
Speaker 5: to storm the Capitol to overturn the twenty twenty four election,
Speaker 5: Republicans would be outraged. But again on that day in
Speaker 5: twenty tinty one, it wasn't just Democrats being targeted. It
Speaker 5: wasn't it was Mike Pence being targeted for the job
Speaker 5: that Kamala Harris is about to do today in certifying election.
Speaker 5: It was members. All members were scared. Republican members were
Speaker 5: scared the most MAGA Republicans were scared and hiding from
Speaker 5: the mob that day. So let's just remember that that, yes,
Speaker 5: there is a role for Republicans like those who believe
Speaker 5: that data ray SICS is wrong, but also who believe
Speaker 5: in a small arm orccountable government, who want to see
Speaker 5: our energy sector thrive, who want to see our grocery
Speaker 5: bills come down. We can do both. You don't need
Speaker 5: to take away your own values and what you stand
Speaker 5: for to appease the Trump Mega people. I just don't
Speaker 5: think that that's way forward for us.
Speaker 3: I only have a minute left, Mara.
Speaker 2: If people should be appalled by what happened four years ago,
Speaker 2: should they not be inspired by what's about to happen today.
Speaker 5: They should be very proud that our system stood that
Speaker 5: day in January twenty twenty one, and that it continues
Speaker 5: to thrive today because of adults in the room who
Speaker 5: are willing to do the job that they were tasked with,
Speaker 5: that they gave an oath to do. That is what
Speaker 5: we call leadership. And it's important that this continues on
Speaker 5: past this moment, past the Trump Maga world moment, because
Speaker 5: our democracy has saided for almost two hundred and fifty years,
Speaker 5: and I intend for it to continue on much longer,
Speaker 5: pass my lifetime.
Speaker 3: More. It's great to see.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate the fact that you could join us
Speaker 2: on this day. Good luck digging out of our snowstorm
Speaker 2: here in the nation's capital. Marichillespie Bluestack Strategies. I will
Speaker 2: remind everybody that in the throes of the last couple
Speaker 2: of years here we also covered the passage of the
Speaker 2: Presidential Transition Improvement Act. We'll talk about that a bit more.
Speaker 2: The idea was to prevent any possibility of what happened
Speaker 2: four years ago, watering down the role of the vice
Speaker 2: president and making it more difficult to object to what's
Speaker 2: going to happen.
Speaker 3: It is unlikely that either will matter, though.
Speaker 2: This is expected to go off without a hitch today,
Speaker 2: and we'll walk through it together starting as I mentioned,
Speaker 2: at one pm Eastern time, about forty five minutes from now,
Speaker 2: will begin the Joint Session of Congress.
Speaker 3: We've got a lot more ahead, only on Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 6: D to.
Speaker 7: Someone who was in the Capitol four years ago. Former
Speaker 7: Congressman Dan Kilde, who used to represent Michigan, is here
Speaker 7: with us on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Sir, thank you
Speaker 7: very much for your time. I would love if you
Speaker 7: could share with us just your reflection on how different
Speaker 7: this is four years ago to the day that you
Speaker 7: and your colleagues and members of the police forces were
Speaker 7: fearful of their lives at the time these proceedings were
Speaker 7: getting underway.
Speaker 8: Yeah, obviously it's a completely different situation. Gratefully, it's different
Speaker 8: in some ways. I mean, I obviously preferred a different
Speaker 8: outcome in this past election. But as you can see,
Speaker 8: my colleagues, democratic colleagues who are disappointed in the outcome,
Speaker 8: disagree with the choice, are there to certify the will
Speaker 8: of the American people. Four years ago. Not only was
Speaker 8: there a mob sent by then President soon to be
Speaker 8: President Donald Trump. Not only was there a mob that
Speaker 8: came to attack, but there were colleagues on the floor
Speaker 8: of the House of Representatives, a majority of the Republican
Speaker 8: members who participated in this whole attack in many ways
Speaker 8: by validating the necessary precondition to the attack, and that
Speaker 8: is this belief that somehow the election was not valid.
Speaker 8: Look at what we're seeing right now. It's what democracy
Speaker 8: is supposed to look like, even when we disagree with
Speaker 8: the outcome personally. It's really tough because I can't even
Speaker 8: look at some of those colleagues that I served with
Speaker 8: in the same way after they contributed to what was
Speaker 8: really the closest we've come to losing our democracy in
Speaker 8: one hundred and fifty years.
Speaker 2: Congress, when it's good to see you, as always, I'll
Speaker 2: remind everybody that you were on with us on January sixth,
Speaker 2: four years ago, and we went back and actually watched
Speaker 2: your interview with David Weston as we were just getting
Speaker 2: a sense of what was happening on January sixth, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one. You talked about to pick up on your
Speaker 2: point there some of your Republican colleagues in the House
Speaker 2: that day and you said, quote, I will look at
Speaker 2: all of those who vote to look at these challenges
Speaker 2: when they know there's no factual basis, I will look
Speaker 2: at them differently Unquote. How do you look at them now?
Speaker 8: Well, it's been tough, and I have come to a
Speaker 8: point where I've reconciled to the point where I can,
Speaker 8: at least when I was still in Congress until a
Speaker 8: couple of days ago, I could work with those folks.
Speaker 8: But I can't deny that I will always look at
Speaker 8: them in a different light. They hold a little less
Speaker 8: respect in my eyes than they otherwise would have. They
Speaker 8: hold less respect than those members of their own party
Speaker 8: that did vote to certify the election, despite the fact
Speaker 8: that they were disappointed in the outcome, and even some
Speaker 8: of those you know who went even further and courage
Speaker 8: the insurrection. But I have to admit I'd look at
Speaker 8: them in a different light.
Speaker 7: Well, as we continue to keep our eye here on
Speaker 7: the House floor, a number of states results have already
Speaker 7: been read aloud. To this point there have been no objections. Again,
Speaker 7: no objections are expected today. No one is contesting these results.
Speaker 7: But Congressman, we do realize that the proceedings today happen
Speaker 7: exactly two weeks before Donald Trump will take the oath
Speaker 7: of office and become the forty seventh President of the
Speaker 7: United States, and he has suggested on that first day,
Speaker 7: two weeks from today, he could issue pardons for many,
Speaker 7: if not all, of those who were convicted of crimes
Speaker 7: on January sixth, twenty twenty one. And I wonder, sir,
Speaker 7: what your thought is about that.
Speaker 8: Well, it's very upsetting to me, both personally, because I
Speaker 8: was a victim of January six I was one of
Speaker 8: those members that was trapped in the gallery and couldn't
Speaker 8: get out, couldn't get out until those police officers were
Speaker 8: able to break through the line and get us out.
Speaker 8: It's a real slap in the face, I think, to
Speaker 8: those of us who were there, and we know what
Speaker 8: we saw and we know what we experienced. It's particularly
Speaker 8: a slap in the face to the Capitol Police. Above all,
Speaker 8: the Capitol Police stood strong and defended this institution, defended
Speaker 8: those of us who worked there against people who came
Speaker 8: there and did serious physical harm to many police officers.
Speaker 8: Five officers lost their lives at the end of it
Speaker 8: all as a result of the terrible experience that they
Speaker 8: went through. The idea that the president of the United
Speaker 8: States would pardon those people who committed a crime against
Speaker 8: this country because they happened to like him is a
Speaker 8: really frightening thought. I think it's something that will not
Speaker 8: go well in the handles of American history. This will
Speaker 8: be a dark day if an impac does that.
Speaker 2: If you're just joining us on Bloomberg TV and Radio,
Speaker 2: it's the Monday edition of Balance of Power. We're spending
Speaker 2: time with former co Congressman Dan Kildy as lawmakers go
Speaker 2: about their work of certifying the vote in the twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four election. This is a live view of a
Speaker 2: joint session of Congress the House floor. We've made our
Speaker 2: way up to Florida, Kayley. As we work through the states.
Speaker 2: Having unsealed the votes, they are essentially counting and qualifying them.
Speaker 2: We saw Congressman Brian's style from Wisconsin, the chair of
Speaker 2: there he is now the Administration Committee.
Speaker 3: He and the ranking member are going through.
Speaker 2: The process of making these official with each state. Congressman.
Speaker 2: As you watch this unfold, you take heart today. Obviously
Speaker 2: four years ago was a tragedy and a stain. I think,
Speaker 2: as we can all agree on American history. But the
Speaker 2: fact that it's happening together today on time as mandated
Speaker 2: by the Constitution, with lawmakers working cooperatively. Should we be
Speaker 2: inspired by what we're seeing now as opposed to four
Speaker 2: years ago.
Speaker 8: I think we should be inspired, and we should be grateful.
Speaker 8: We should be grateful that the people who put in office,
Speaker 8: at least on my side of the aisle, and I'm
Speaker 8: a former member, but I'm a Democrat and proud of
Speaker 8: that that you're not seeing us do the same thing
Speaker 8: that we saw four years ago. And it does beg
Speaker 8: the question, and I think it's a good question to pose,
Speaker 8: what if the election had gone the other way? What
Speaker 8: would today look like if Kamala Harris had succeeded. Would
Speaker 8: those same representatives on the floor of the House of
Speaker 8: Representatives now who are planning to vote to certify the election,
Speaker 8: how many of them would would do what the Democrats
Speaker 8: are doing and follow the will of the people. I
Speaker 8: worry about that because you know, obviously the election went
Speaker 8: their way. They're pleased. What if it hadn't gone their way?
Speaker 8: Look at HAIKM. Jeffrey said it the other day at
Speaker 8: his address to the House. Loving this country means you
Speaker 8: love it even when you don't succeed, even when you
Speaker 8: lose an election. Loyalty to this country is not something
Speaker 8: you can pick and choose based on how you think
Speaker 8: the election should have gone. And I sure hope people
Speaker 8: have that in mind today as they think about the
Speaker 8: importance of this moment.
Speaker 7: Well, and as you join us here on balance of power, Sir,
Speaker 7: as a former member of the House, some of your
Speaker 7: former colleagues who have also left their positions in elected office,
Speaker 7: looked into the events of January sixth, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 7: I'm thinking of, for example, Liz Cheney, Benny Thompson, Adam Kingsinger,
Speaker 7: some of them Donald Trump has suggested should face jail
Speaker 7: time for the work they did on that committee. And
Speaker 7: with two weeks left to go of his presidency, do
Speaker 7: you believe Joe Biden should be issuing preemptive pardons to
Speaker 7: those individuals.
Speaker 8: No, I'm not a fan of the use of presidential
Speaker 8: pardons at all, no matter what they're used for. I
Speaker 8: think it's authority that is antiquated, obsolete, and should be
Speaker 8: taken away. I just don't believe it. I have enough
Speaker 8: faith in the judicial system that if Donald Trump decides
Speaker 8: to make a mockery of it by pursuing charges against
Speaker 8: people who simply told the truth and saw the truth.
Speaker 8: I believe our judicial system, our justice system, we have
Speaker 8: to have enough faith in it that it would find
Speaker 8: those people innocent. I don't think preemptive pardons are advisable
Speaker 8: under any circumstance, And even though I would agree with
Speaker 8: the sentiment, I don't think it would be a good
Speaker 8: thing to do.
Speaker 2: Pretty incredible story in Political magazine Today about Al Gore
Speaker 2: thanking Mike Pence for his actions of four years ago.
Speaker 2: They met at a Joe Lieberman memorial service over the summer.
Speaker 2: Congressman Mike Pence told al Gore that he was inspired
Speaker 2: by what he had seen in two thousand and one.
Speaker 2: I never forgot it, Pence said to Gore, who replied,
Speaker 2: you don't know how much that means coming from you.
Speaker 2: Of course, al Gore was under a lot of pressure
Speaker 2: at that point by his own party to defy the
Speaker 2: constitution following all the recounts, and what was a difficult time.
Speaker 2: If you're old enough to remember, shouldn't we also acknowledge
Speaker 2: the fact that Democratic lawmakers have raised objections in this
Speaker 2: process that we're witnessing right now.
Speaker 3: In the past, that's.
Speaker 2: A bypart as an exercise, and it's separate from storming
Speaker 2: the Capitol.
Speaker 8: It is separate from starring the Capitol, for sure. But
Speaker 8: I think there is a clear distinction when an outlier
Speaker 8: or two within a party, for the purposes of calling
Speaker 8: attention to an issue or sometimes to themselves, may have
Speaker 8: offered objections. But that's a far cry from the majority
Speaker 8: of a party, members of the House and of the
Speaker 8: Senate taking the position that what they know to be
Speaker 8: a free and fair election should not be certified because
Speaker 8: they didn't like the outcome. So I've heard those comparisons before,
Speaker 8: and while they're technically there have been instances of this,
Speaker 8: it's a far cry from what we saw on January sixth,
Speaker 8: and I think it's a distinction with a big difference, Sir.
Speaker 7: We're into the MS now in terms of the results
Speaker 7: reading out the states, Massachusetts has gone by. That does
Speaker 7: mean Michigan is going to be coming soon. As Kamala
Speaker 7: Harris stands next to the House Speaker at the rosterm
Speaker 7: Michigan of course one of the swing states, one of
Speaker 7: all of the swing states which she lost, and I
Speaker 7: wonder as we look ahead to twenty twenty six, to
Speaker 7: the day we will be experiencing four years from now
Speaker 7: January sixth, twenty twenty nine. Now that you are on
Speaker 7: the outside kind of looking into people competing for elected office, sir,
Speaker 7: what do you see is needing to change between now
Speaker 7: and then so that the next time they read out
Speaker 7: the results from Michigan, it's the Democrat who won those
Speaker 7: electoral votes.
Speaker 8: Well, I think clearly we need to do a better
Speaker 8: job of communicating to people in terms they understand, not
Speaker 8: speak down to people, and not speak in wonky policy terms.
Speaker 8: My advice to Democrats is that if you're having a
Speaker 8: conversation in a campaign, and if that conversation doesn't fit
Speaker 8: in a kitchen table discussion, you're having their own conversation.
Speaker 8: And I think sometimes we don't do a good job
Speaker 8: of getting out of our own way and just speaking
Speaker 8: to people on terms that they that they really do
Speaker 8: understand about the issues that they really care about, not
Speaker 8: sometimes the big macro issues, but those economic issues that
Speaker 8: families face. We didn't do a very good job of that.
Speaker 8: We need to do better, for sure. If we do,
Speaker 8: then I think the outcome of the election will be
Speaker 8: determined by that.
Speaker 2: The Democrat from Michigan, former Congressman Dan Kildey. We could
Speaker 2: use you congressmen in Washington right now. We need a
Speaker 2: few folks who know how to handle snow, so let
Speaker 2: us do you pack in here? Yes, sir, of course,
Speaker 2: they've been plowing all night, Gaile, it's still snowing here.
Speaker 2: There was some concern it was going to interfere with
Speaker 2: the proceedings, but enough lawmakers stayed in town over the weekend,
Speaker 2: and certainly Capitol police stayed in town last evening that
Speaker 2: this appears to be going off without a Hitge.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on
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Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch
Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.
Speaker 7: What We'll go down as a noteworthy day in history,
Speaker 7: though not for the same reason that's four years ago.
Speaker 7: It's just the day that Congress did its constitutional duty
Speaker 7: and certified the electoral victory of Donald Trump as the
Speaker 7: forty seventh President of the United States.
Speaker 2: Not a single objection. It was pretty remarkable. We were
Speaker 2: talking earlier with Dan Kildey about this. It's not unusual
Speaker 2: to hear objections. In fact, there were many Democratic objections
Speaker 2: if you remember in two thousand and two thousand and
Speaker 2: four the situation with Ohio. The difference four years ago
Speaker 2: was the attack on the Capitol. What happened outside the capitol?
Speaker 2: What today to see none, no deeds, no ours. Everyone
Speaker 2: really wanted to to make this neat and clean.
Speaker 7: Well and to make a point that this is how
Speaker 7: the Democrats process works in the United States. It's a
Speaker 7: key pillar of the peaceful transfer of power that these
Speaker 7: results are accepted by a joint session of Congress, as
Speaker 7: they were indeed today. And of course Democrats not losing
Speaker 7: the opportunity to make note of the contrast compared to
Speaker 7: how they view the conduct of their Republican colleagues.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Joe Biden and op ed Kamala Harris in a video.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting day here in Washington. Contrasts could not
Speaker 2: be greater from four years ago. And as Rick pointed out,
Speaker 2: it's so quiet on the hill because we've got a snowstorm.
Speaker 2: I think maybe one flight got in today and Mick
Speaker 2: mulvaney was on it. I don't know how this is possible,
Speaker 2: but he's with us at the table right now. The
Speaker 2: former Republican congressman, co founder the Freedom Caucus, former acting
Speaker 2: chief of staff in the Trump White House.
Speaker 3: Nice to see a happy new year.
Speaker 9: I mean I still have my Christmas sweater on.
Speaker 6: Well you did pretty well, and I apologize for not
Speaker 6: dressing appropriately, but yeah, I'm just happy to.
Speaker 9: Be here in this snow deck.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 9: And it's not a big.
Speaker 6: Snowstorm for most places that are used to snowstorms.
Speaker 9: For this town, it's enough to shrut things down. That
Speaker 9: was the only car on the road in from the airport.
Speaker 3: Was surprised there was no single objection to that.
Speaker 6: I was, you know, let's go back and play some
Speaker 6: of the audio tape and the videotape of folks of
Speaker 6: what they've said about Donald Trump over the last three
Speaker 6: or four months. I mean, Jamie Raskin, I mean, face it.
Speaker 6: We were open the Democrats were openly accusing him of
Speaker 6: being the next coming of Adolf Hitler, that if we
Speaker 6: voted for him, it would be the end of the
Speaker 6: democracy as we know it.
Speaker 9: That's not an exaggeration. That's not me using.
Speaker 6: Hyperbole as sort of spinning what the Democrats said about him,
Speaker 6: That's what they said. They tried to convince people. I
Speaker 6: respect the fact that nobody objected. I think that's a
Speaker 6: good thing, and I think Democrats probably decided it was
Speaker 6: better for their brand long term not to object. But
Speaker 6: the next time they go on TV and tell people, oh,
Speaker 6: this person is the next coming of Adolf Hitler, are
Speaker 6: they going to justify what they just did.
Speaker 9: I think it is inconsistent.
Speaker 7: After it voted for all they did was say, yes,
Speaker 7: this is how people voted. That's not their vote.
Speaker 6: I get that, but don't forget what did Hillary Clinton said?
Speaker 6: Oh remember Hitler was elected, which he wasn't, by the way,
Speaker 6: So there's always that if you really really thought he
Speaker 6: was Adolf Hitler, would did you vote to certify the election?
Speaker 6: I think the answer is no, if you really believed it,
Speaker 6: you would not, And in fact, I wouldn't. If I
Speaker 6: really thought somebody's aid off Hill, I would vote. Wouldn't
Speaker 6: vote to certify the election. So what I think you've
Speaker 6: just seen is look again, I applaud the way it
Speaker 6: went down, and it's the smooth transition of power.
Speaker 9: I'm a huge fan, and I think it was.
Speaker 6: A class move today to do this, but it certainly
Speaker 6: undermines some of the hyperbole that they were using going
Speaker 6: into the going into the election.
Speaker 2: As we mentioned, we heard from Joe Biden in an
Speaker 2: op ed, Kamala Harris and a carefully produced video presentation
Speaker 2: talking about her solemn duty, both of them going out
Speaker 2: of their way though to remind us of what happened
Speaker 2: four years ago. How should we catalog January sixth, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one. You've got Donald Trump on one side saying
Speaker 2: it was a day of love, and obviously you saw
Speaker 2: more than a thousand people plead guilty to very serious crimes.
Speaker 6: And we've talked about it before and it's sad. That sad,
Speaker 6: maybe that's not the right word. If you think it
Speaker 6: was a peaceful protest evidence of that. I mean, I
Speaker 6: remember seeing it.
Speaker 9: We've talked about this. I was in town. In fact,
Speaker 9: I was in the building that morning.
Speaker 6: I was at my condo in the afternoon, and I
Speaker 6: saw the people walking through the rotunda and one person
Speaker 6: stepped across the velvet ropes and somebody else grabbed them
Speaker 6: and pulled them back. So there were absolutely peaceful protesters.
Speaker 6: And if you want to say it was a peaceful protest.
Speaker 6: There's some evidence to that. If you want to say
Speaker 6: it was a violent insurrection, there are certainly evidence to that.
Speaker 6: My sad and I will you sad here because I
Speaker 6: am really sad about this, is that we don't have
Speaker 6: any sort of common ground over what January sixth was.
Speaker 6: If you voted Democrat, you think one way. If you
Speaker 6: vote Republican, you think another way. At least for most folks.
Speaker 6: I wish we really knew what happened, and now there's
Speaker 6: evidence out or excuse me, there's suggestions out that there
Speaker 6: were FBI people in the in the crowd.
Speaker 9: Is that right?
Speaker 6: I've heard allegations that the Democrats tampered with the evidence
Speaker 6: during the January sixth commission?
Speaker 9: Is that right? We don't know what.
Speaker 6: The facts are, and it's really hard to have an
Speaker 6: informed opinion about something if you don't have the fact.
Speaker 7: Well, we do know people lost their lives both on
Speaker 7: that day and in the aftermath. There is video evidence
Speaker 7: of many of these individuals assaulting police officers. Should those
Speaker 7: people who are on video, some of whom have already
Speaker 7: pleaded guilty to these crimes, be pardoned.
Speaker 9: That's a great question. Here's here's how I hope they
Speaker 9: deal with it.
Speaker 6: Look, the pardon power is a strange thing that we
Speaker 6: give to presidents. Why we give it to presidents, I'm
Speaker 6: not really sure. It's more of a king or queen
Speaker 6: type of thing. I hope that they go through it
Speaker 6: case by case, and if they do give pardons to
Speaker 6: some of the January sixth most violent offenders, let's say
Speaker 6: that they look at it and say, Okay, in this
Speaker 6: particular circumstance, let's use the sake of a discussion. The
Speaker 6: jail time doesn't seem to meet the crime. Okay, that
Speaker 6: would be that would be grounds for a part. It
Speaker 6: would be people would look at the use of a
Speaker 6: pardonner and go, okay, that's that's that's an orthodox application
Speaker 6: of the presidential part authority. To come in and just
Speaker 6: say it never happened. It was a peaceful protest, everybody
Speaker 6: gets off. I think that would be that would that
Speaker 6: would be wrong. It happened the day, absolutely happened, and
Speaker 6: we have to figure out why it happened, what happened,
Speaker 6: and then make sure it doesn't happen again. And if
Speaker 6: you try and sweep it under the rug of history,
Speaker 6: I think that you're doing a disservice.
Speaker 3: I'm sure you remember the way you felt.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I'm still angry about the day, and if you're
Speaker 6: if you're American, you should be angry about the day.
Speaker 6: Even if you're one of the people who thinks it
Speaker 6: was a peaceful protest, you could look at what you've
Speaker 6: just talked about, Kaylee and say, look, but there were
Speaker 6: other people there who were not, And I'm angry about.
Speaker 3: That, and I think that's that's not unreasonable.
Speaker 7: Do you think we could have seen a repeat of
Speaker 7: what happened four years ago today had Donald Trump not won?
Speaker 6: You know, I get asked that question all the time,
Speaker 6: and I tell people I am the worst person to
Speaker 6: ask that question of because I didn't see it coming
Speaker 6: the first in the first place.
Speaker 9: I really didn't.
Speaker 6: And that's what frightens me the most about that day
Speaker 6: is that not only did I not see it coming,
Speaker 6: if you'd asked me, he said, Mick, if there'd be
Speaker 6: riots and a transition, I never would have thought it
Speaker 6: would have been my party, the law and order party,
Speaker 6: that was involved with.
Speaker 9: It in any fashion.
Speaker 6: So I am the wrong person to ask about what
Speaker 6: we might have seen today if the outcome had been different.
Speaker 9: Because I didn't see it four years.
Speaker 2: Ago, and then the post mortem that everyone's walking around
Speaker 2: the war room talking about stop this deal with Roger Stone.
Speaker 2: That was not every member of the administration, otherwise you
Speaker 2: would have been exposed to that in advance.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean I was. I was a minor
Speaker 6: member of the administration at the time. But yes, she
Speaker 6: was a staff No, not that time. I was a
Speaker 6: specially on void in Northern Ireland under story six understand.
Speaker 9: Yah, I've been. I've been in Northern Ireland for about
Speaker 9: six eight months.
Speaker 3: Thank you for reminding us of that.
Speaker 6: Otherwise I would have been involved in a lot more
Speaker 6: January sixth investigations than I was.
Speaker 3: I suspect that's absolutely true.
Speaker 2: Talk to us about what's happening inside this transition right now,
Speaker 2: because they're trying to move beyond obviously the story there
Speaker 2: we're describing and reading the interview today in Axios with
Speaker 2: Susie Wilds that the whole mantra is no drama this time.
Speaker 3: Yes, is that possible?
Speaker 9: Yes, it is? It is it?
Speaker 6: Would I bet on it? Yeah, No, I think it's
Speaker 6: But you asked me if it's possible, it's absolutely possible.
Speaker 6: What she like out in her in her Acxios interviews,
Speaker 6: exactly what you would want a chief of staff to
Speaker 6: lay out. It's textbook, It's absolutely perfect. The question is
Speaker 6: going to be can she pull it off? Or is
Speaker 6: somebody I'll use one of my favorite foils, Peter Navarro
Speaker 6: going to go out and start leaking to the press
Speaker 6: as soon as he doesn't get the answer that he
Speaker 6: wants in a White House meeting.
Speaker 9: He did it all the time. We all knew he
Speaker 9: did it all the time. If the President.
Speaker 6: Continues to or allows that to happen this time, then
Speaker 6: it will undermine Susie's ability to run the building in
Speaker 6: the way she laid out standing leaks as the key. Well,
Speaker 6: it's just hiring people who buy into the fact you're
Speaker 6: on the team. John Bolton was never on the team.
Speaker 6: Up beat up on Bolton for a second. I mean
Speaker 6: John always thought that he was the president and if
Speaker 6: Donald Trump decided something that went against what John Bolton
Speaker 6: thought he should do, John thought it was his duty to.
Speaker 9: Try and change that.
Speaker 6: And if he would go out and leak or do
Speaker 6: whatever to try and change the president's decision, that undermines
Speaker 6: the authority of the chief. It undermines the proper operation
Speaker 6: of a West Wing. So no, if Susie's able to
Speaker 6: do that, and in order to do that, she has
Speaker 6: to get the buy in of Donald Trump. And now
Speaker 6: you asked me if it's possible, I said yes, Why
Speaker 6: because it looks like it happened on the campaign.
Speaker 9: It really did. You have to imagine during that campaign.
Speaker 6: Go back and remember there were some really high points
Speaker 6: and some really low points during the twenty twenty four campaign.
Speaker 6: And if she was able to sort of right the
Speaker 6: ship and keep things calm, quiet and button down during
Speaker 6: the good times and the bad, that's as good as
Speaker 6: indicators to what it might be like for her running
Speaker 6: the West Wing.
Speaker 7: In that interview, Susie Wiles also pushed back against the
Speaker 7: notion that these big accomplishments needs to happen in the
Speaker 7: first one hundred days. To summarize her words, she basically
Speaker 7: thinks that's an arbitrary deadline. But we do have questions
Speaker 7: about what will happen in the most immediate term when
Speaker 7: Donald Trump takes office, including how the reconciliation process is
Speaker 7: going to work, whether it's going to be one big, beautiful,
Speaker 7: powerful bill or two. This is what the House Speaker
Speaker 7: Mike Johnson had to say about yesterday.
Speaker 10: We're fifteen days out from the inauguration of President Donald J.
Speaker 10: Trump for his second term, and we want to make
Speaker 10: sure that we're jump starting the agenda now over the
Speaker 10: next two weeks so that he's prepared and ready on
Speaker 10: day one. President Trump is going to prefer, as he
Speaker 10: likes to say, one big, beautiful bill, and there's a
Speaker 10: lot of merit to that because we can put it
Speaker 10: all together one big up or down vote, which can
Speaker 10: save the country quite literally. Reconciliation is the way to
Speaker 10: get it done. Why, because you avoid a sixty vote
Speaker 10: threshold in the Senate. We're targeting a vote in the
Speaker 10: House and maybe in the first week of April.
Speaker 7: So timeline is one thing here, Mick, but just how
Speaker 7: this gets done is another. He Mike Johnson. Others in
Speaker 7: the House have long been advocating for one big bill.
Speaker 7: Senator John Thune, the Majority leader, wants to Donald Trump
Speaker 7: despite advocating for one bill and true social over the weekend.
Speaker 7: In an interview with You, Hewitt this morning said he's
Speaker 7: open to either. So how do you see this going down?
Speaker 6: Well, Trump runs the place right and he should. He
Speaker 6: runs the Republican Party. They're in control of the town
Speaker 6: right now, so he gets to make those decisions. And
Speaker 6: if I'm Donald Trump, if I'm Chief of staffed Donald Trump,
Speaker 6: why do I care if it's one bill or two?
Speaker 6: How do I get what I want? How do I
Speaker 6: get my agenda approved? If you tell me I get
Speaker 6: a better chance of doing that with one bill, Yay,
Speaker 6: let's do one bill. If it's got to be sixteen
Speaker 6: different bills, I'll do that. The question is going to
Speaker 6: be this as to whether or not one bill or
Speaker 6: two and it has to be one of those. It
Speaker 6: can't be sixteen because they only get two shots at
Speaker 6: the reconciliation apple. Right, two bites at that apple is
Speaker 6: do you gain votes by putting a bunch of disparate
Speaker 6: stuff together or do you lose votes? Because keep in mind,
Speaker 6: I don't think they can lose any votes.
Speaker 7: Well, and with your knowledge of the House, which do
Speaker 7: you think the answer is?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 9: I mean historically in Washington, d C.
Speaker 6: The reason you get these massive bills that everybody says
Speaker 6: they hate is that that's what passes. Okay, these omnibus
Speaker 6: bills you're really talking about, for lack of a better
Speaker 6: word an omnibus reconciliation bill. We're going to do immigration
Speaker 6: and tax and border and everything else all at one time. Right,
Speaker 6: it's not a single issue bill. I think maybe they
Speaker 6: look at that and say, you know what, you might
Speaker 6: be a fiscal conservative and you might not like what
Speaker 6: the tax does to the to the deficit, but you
Speaker 6: really like the other stuff, and all in all you'll
Speaker 6: vote for it.
Speaker 9: So maybe that's the logic.
Speaker 2: Be very curious to see what the Senate parliamentarian thinks
Speaker 2: of all this. When we do the bird bath bird path,
Speaker 2: Well have you come on to talk about it. But
Speaker 2: in our remaining moment or two whatever we have left here,
Speaker 2: you're the chief of staff. You're the gatekeeper at the
Speaker 2: White House.
Speaker 9: Chief of staff is not the gatekeeper.
Speaker 2: But keep going, keep okay, some people describe it as such.
Speaker 2: You can give us a reality check on that is
Speaker 2: Elon Musk not the guy you're most concerned about right
Speaker 2: now because he's got the keys to.
Speaker 3: The Oval office.
Speaker 9: No, no, I want if i'm if i'm I want
Speaker 9: Musk on the team. I mean he's being on the team.
Speaker 3: He's out there freelancing though, isn't he Listen?
Speaker 6: If I can have one of the smartest people in
Speaker 6: the world who's aligned with me on many of my
Speaker 6: of my priority of my legislat priorities. That's usually a
Speaker 6: good thing. Do you have to manage personalities? Yeah, but
Speaker 6: it's Washington, d C.
Speaker 3: You guys know, the two biggest personalities maybe in the world.
Speaker 6: And people say all the time, oh, you know, when
Speaker 6: will they have their falling out. I don't know if
Speaker 6: they can afford to have a falling out.
Speaker 9: I really don't.
Speaker 6: I think they're both now, they're they're sort of tied
Speaker 6: at the hip. Trump can't afford to lose to lose Musk,
Speaker 6: and must can't afford to lose Trump, so they're married
Speaker 6: for the for the for the good part. What I
Speaker 6: think is the thing that I put back my old
Speaker 6: omb had on is I want to know when Elon
Speaker 6: Musk figures out that it's easier to go to Mars
Speaker 6: than it is to fix Washington, because that's what he's
Speaker 6: trying to do with Doge and he's and I say
Speaker 6: that only half jokingly, that is the biggest task. I'm
Speaker 6: glad that it's getting attention. I'm glad that it's sexy.
Speaker 6: All of a sudden everybody wants to talk about Doge.
Speaker 6: It's been a great marketing standpoint, a great marketing campaign.
Speaker 6: We tried to do it in the first term, failed miserably.
Speaker 9: That was me.
Speaker 6: Donald Trump is a lot, I mean, Elon Musk is
Speaker 6: a lot smarter than I am, so maybe he can
Speaker 6: pull it off. But if I'm Trump, I want, I want,
Speaker 6: I want, always want Musk on the team.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 5: All right.
Speaker 7: Mick Mulvaney, former acting chief of staff in the first
Speaker 7: Trump White House, former congressman from South Carolina, here with
Speaker 7: us in our Washington, d C studio on a snow day.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much for just have more ahead at
Speaker 7: five pm, a lot.
Speaker 3: More to talk about. The vote has been certified.
Speaker 2: Join us at five pm Eastern on the fastest show
Speaker 2: in politics, This is Bloomberg. Thanks for listening to the
Speaker 2: Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you
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