1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: If I ask you to imagine something like the sun 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: peeking over a mountain during an early morning rainstorm, do 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: you see it with rich visual detail like a movie. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Or at the other end of the spectrum, do you 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: not really have any internal picture at all, but instead 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: just a concept. In an earlier episode, we tackled the 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: spectrum of internal visual imagination from hyperfantasia at one end 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: to a fantasia at the other end. How does your 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: experience differ from other people's and what does this have 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: to do with the mind's eye or the mind's ear, 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: or how your brain cobbles together the skills that you 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: have to nail the tasks before you. Welcome to Inner 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: Cosmos with me, David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist and an 14 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: author at Stanford and in the episodes we dive deeply 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: into our three pound universe to uncover some of the 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: most surprising aspects of our lives. Today's episode returns to 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: an issue that I hit a little while ago about 18 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: how we visualize on the inside. Specifically, we talked about 19 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: a fantasia and hyperfantasia. In a fantasia, you just don't 20 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: picture anything in your head when you're asked to visually 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: imagine something, and in Hyperfantasia, it's like a movie going 22 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: on on the inside, and every one of us is 23 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: somewhere on this spectrum between these two end points. And 24 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: if you heard that episode, you know that I talked 25 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: with Ed Katmoll, who's the founder of Pixar Films, and 26 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: Ed was surprised to discover a while ago that he 27 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: is a fantasic. And when he quizzed some of the 28 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: best artists and animators at Pixar, he was even more 29 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: surprised to discover that many of them were a fantasic. 30 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: So the key lesson that emerged from that episode is 31 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: that we each have our own experience of reality, but 32 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: most of the time we assume that our experiences are 33 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: human universals. It never even strikes us that other people 34 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: might be having a different reality. 35 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: And this is. 36 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: Something we've seen in the scientific community, even very recently. 37 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: Some researcher will introspect and think about how they're experiencing 38 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: the world, and then they will argue that that is 39 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 1: how brains work. They're operating under the assumption that all 40 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: brains are having the same experience on the inside. It's 41 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: very reasonable assumption it just turns out to be incorrect. 42 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: Episode on how We Imagine on the Inside that turned 43 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: out to be a very popular episode. 44 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: I got a lot of emails about this. 45 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: And I think this is because it's a real eye 46 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: opener to almost everybody when they realize that it's difficult 47 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: to know whether your version of reality is true for everybody. 48 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: You only know that it's true for you, and when 49 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: things get subjected to rigorous study, it often turns out 50 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: that there's a different experience going on from person to person. 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: And one thing that was very interesting to me and 52 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: came out of these emails was this question about how 53 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: people lean into their own strengths and compensate for their weaknesses, 54 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: with the end result being that you often just don't 55 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: know from looking at somebody's behavior or performance what that 56 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: person can or can't do on the inside. And I 57 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: was reminded about this issue of how the brain might 58 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 1: cobble together lots of ways of acomplishing a task. When 59 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: Ed Catmull told me about his interaction with Glenn Keen, 60 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: who's one of the best animators that Pixar has ever known. 61 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: I didn't play that clip in the earlier episode but 62 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to concentrate on that now. 63 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: When I had my dinner with Glenn Keene after we 64 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 3: had the results, because as I mentioned, when I first 65 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 3: met with Glenn, he said, yeah, he can't visualize, and 66 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: he knows that and it's just part of his skill. 67 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: So Ed had run an internal study at Pixar and 68 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: found that many of the great artists and animators couldn't visualize. 69 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: That was a much more normal thing than would have 70 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: been expected. And Ed presented those results to Glenn. 71 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: Then he said that he felt relieved because he was 72 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: always a little worried that something was. 73 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 4: Wrong with him. 74 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: And I was surprised at that one because he was 75 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: so good. But it was also true with some of 76 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: the people with a fantasia was they they felt relieved 77 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: because they felt there might be something wrong with them. 78 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 3: I thought, well, okay, that's curious. It's understandable. And the 79 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: terminology that's frequently used is one of a deficiency. 80 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 4: It's like the mind blind eye. 81 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: Which is a phrase that's frequently used when people write about. 82 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: It, A blind mind's eye, right. 83 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, blind mind's eye. So uh. And I never really 84 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 4: liked the term because. 85 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 3: I didn't feel like I had a blind mind's eye. 86 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 3: I didn't feel deficient in that way. It was just 87 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 3: like I had a different set of skills. So the 88 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 3: negative terminology wasn't helpful to them. And it was like 89 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: a curious thing where people felt like they were deficient 90 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 3: when actually the quality of their work wasn't was extraordinarily good. 91 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: Let me make sure I understand the story, though, was 92 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: that Glenn felt that way before he understood what a 93 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: fantasia was. I mean, the reason I ask is because 94 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: most people assume that everyone else's reality is the same 95 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: as theirs on the inside. Did he have a sense 96 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: in some way that he was different even before he 97 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: understood about a fantasia? 98 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 3: Well, he did know that he couldn't visualize before all 99 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: this took place, So I think in some people's cases, 100 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: I would say this is true with others too. And 101 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 3: some of the others who were storyboard artists at Disney 102 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 3: said they knew that the others could work faster than 103 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 3: they could, and they felt deficient in their ability to 104 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 3: operate at that speed, but they didn't say anything. In 105 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: Glenn's case, he said that he he knew that he 106 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 3: couldn't visualize because he'd had this discussion with his mentor 107 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: about it, but it wasn't until after the result came 108 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 3: out that he said that he felt realated. Initially, he 109 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 3: didn't say that he thought there was any problems. So 110 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: there's a little bit of something inside of people saying, oh, 111 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: maybe there's something wrong with me because I can't do it. 112 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 4: Again. 113 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: That was Ed catmull, the founder of Pixar Films. He 114 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: is a fantasic and you can hear my full interview 115 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: with him on episode fifty nine. Anyway, so many people 116 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: contacted me about this that I decided it was time 117 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: to do a second episode on this topic with a 118 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: deeper dive into the science. So I called a friend 119 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: and colleague of mine, Joel Pearson, a professor of cognitive 120 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: neuroscience at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia. 121 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: Now you may remember I had Joel on the show 122 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: a little while ago to talk about the science and 123 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: psychology of intuition, as in what it is, when to 124 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: trust it, when not to trust it. But I had 125 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: him back now to speak more about a fantasia and 126 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: hyper fantasia and all of the studies that his lab 127 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: has done on this So here's my interview with Joel Pearson. Okay, 128 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: so Joel tell us what is a fantasia. 129 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's the name to describe a complete lack of 130 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: visual imagery. Now we can dig a little bit deeper 131 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: and talk about imagery in the other senses, but primarily 132 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: it refers to people that either acquired or lost their 133 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: visual imagery or were born without any visual imagery. 134 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: And what percentage of population are we looking at? That 135 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: has a fantastic Yeah. 136 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: Kind of a controversial question. So it seems to be 137 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: between say two percent and four percent, give or take. 138 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: I think it's probably more like five to seven percent. 139 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: Because a lot of people I talk to who have 140 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: it or discover that imagery exists, they never realized imagery 141 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 2: actually exists. They always thought it was a metaphor and 142 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: the mind's eye was simply a metaphor. So they're shocked. 143 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: And so I think the way people measure it with 144 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: questionnaires is actually under undermeasuring the total number. Yeah, so 145 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 2: I think it's a little bit higher. Sounds right. 146 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: So you know, back in two thousand and seven, I 147 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: did this paper where we did brain imagery and show 148 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: that we could correlate what someone's subjective report is on 149 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: the vividness of visual imergy questionnaire to their brain imaging. 150 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: But you've done something even cooler and simpler than brain imaging, 151 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: which is pupil ametory. So tell us explain to us 152 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: what that's. 153 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a paper. So we've been on this quest 154 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: to try and have objective measurements of visual imagery. And 155 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 2: the pupil measure was simply we get par dispants into 156 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 2: the lab and they have to imagine bright objects or 157 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: dark objects. Right, So if you look at a bright 158 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: object or a dark object, we actually use at triangle. 159 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: So if you look at the bright triangle, your pupil 160 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 2: can strict right bright light. When you look at the 161 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: dark thing, it relaxes and opens up. And it turns 162 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: out if you have someone imagine the same shapes a 163 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: light or a dark triangle, the pupil would do a 164 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: similar thing. Right. So simply by imagining a bright light 165 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: it contracts, which is pretty cool in itself, right, And 166 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: it turns out you do that in the normal population, let's say, 167 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: to people's typical imagery. You get this effect, then you 168 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: can be got people with a fantasia into the lab 169 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: and we didn't see the effects, so their eyes, their 170 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: pupils don't constrict, right, And then the question is, well 171 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: are they are they faking it? They just don't want 172 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: to do it because they think they have a fantasia. Right, 173 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: it's some sort of a psychological thing. We have this 174 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: other condition where we have rather than just one triangle, 175 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: we have two or three or four triangles. And you 176 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: see this set size effect which seems to be linked 177 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: with the sort of cognitive and mental effort. So unpack 178 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: the set size effects. Yeah, so when there's more triangles, 179 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: you see a more of a general dilation independent of 180 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: the bright or dark condition, right, And that just seems 181 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: to be like people are trying harder with more triangles. 182 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: And the cool thing is you see this set size 183 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: effect in both groups, in people with imagery and people 184 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: without imagery, people with a fantasia. So suggest they are 185 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: trying as hard as they can, or they're trying pretty 186 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: hard because it's set size effects there, but there's no 187 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: difference in the luminance or the brightness of the shapes. 188 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: So they're trying, but something's just not happening in their brain. 189 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: It's not happening in visual cortex. Whatever is driving that 190 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: pupil response is not there, so and is. 191 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: It a clear enough effect that you can just ask 192 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: somebody when they tell you that there are fantastic you 193 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: can see, hey picture? 194 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: Can you do it that way? In ser I don't 195 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: know if you can do it right now? Like what's 196 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: your pupil You probably did lots of trials under the 197 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 2: right conditions. I think it'd be cool to try and 198 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 2: you know, have a phone test of that where you 199 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: could just test that in anyone any time. But yeah, 200 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: the data was pretty clear and it correlated with other 201 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 2: measures of visual imagery we have in the lab. So 202 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: it's nice to see the different techniques that have come together. 203 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: You and I know lots and lots of people with 204 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: a fantasia who are terrifically successful in their careers. For example, 205 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: we both are friends with Ed Catmoll, who I interviewed 206 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: in a previous episode. And there's you know, this very 207 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: famous software engineer who's a fantasic and nonetheless did all 208 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: the UI for the for Mozilla. One of the engineers 209 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: at my company, Neo Censury, is a fantasic can yet 210 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: he's a terrifically creative engineer. So you've studied the issue 211 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: about what are the strategies that people of the East 212 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: Fantasia are using? 213 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: Tell us about that. Yes, so it depends what we're 214 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: talking about. We're talking about so working memory, so holding 215 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: information in short term memory and visual information. People with 216 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: imagery or people with no imagery have different strategies. So 217 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: I have imagery, and if I have to remember, you know, 218 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: like how many coups you have in front of me, 219 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to basically imagine those cups while I'm trying 220 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: to hold it in memory. And that's my mnemonic strategy 221 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: to use a technical word. People without imagery won't do that. 222 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: They have to use and it's not just one other strategy. 223 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: It seems to be a bunch of different strategies. So 224 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: they'll use words, geometry, locations in space. So there's a 225 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: range of different compensatory mechanisms or strategies if you like. 226 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: And they've been practicing most of the people have been 227 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: practicing those strategies their whole life, right, so they're very 228 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: good at it. So if you just look at the 229 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: performance data, it can look exactly the same in some 230 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: of these memory tests, these short term working memory tests, 231 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 2: and then we see this sort of strategy difference across 232 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: the board in other things we've measured as well. 233 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's funny because you and I both in 234 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: several other researchers around the planet figured when we first 235 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: learned about a fantasia, figured, oh, we can just do 236 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 1: some simple tests on this, and we were surprised that 237 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: on many tests you can't really find a performance difference. 238 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: And it's precisely because of this, right, because people figure 239 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: out other strategies to get buy in the world. And 240 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: I mentioned to you the other day my hypothesis about 241 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: why really good artists and animators like a Pixar, maybe 242 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: why why a fantasics are more likely to become good artists. 243 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: This is just the dumb hypothesis. 244 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: But I figure, if you're a kid in you're hyperfantagic, 245 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: and someone says, draw the horse, you know, you sort 246 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: of know what a horse looks like, and you draw 247 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: with there. But if you're a fantasic, you really have 248 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: to stare at the model and you have to figure 249 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: out what the heck's out there, and you have a 250 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: dialogue with the page and you get more practice. That 251 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: way is the hypothesis, and That's why, even though it 252 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: seems like a surprise at first that Pixar found that 253 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: it had so many a fantagic animators there, maybe it's 254 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: not such a surprise because they were learning different strategies 255 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: in life and ended up becoming better artists that way. 256 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the exactly And what is it, Glenn 257 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: Keane that's his name. Yeah, the animator at picks out 258 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: when you see you've seen the footage of him. Yeah, 259 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: but he embodies the motions the movements of his character, 260 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: and he's like jumping around. If you're watching the video, 261 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: I'm still moving around on the chair, right, And so 262 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: he has to almost feel in his body, I think 263 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: before he draws it. So I've sat down with people 264 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: with with a fantasia and said, you know, draw an apple. 265 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: When they to draw a beautiful, perfect, almost perfect apple, right, 266 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: I say, well, how do you know what you're going 267 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: to draw before the pen touched the paper? And he 268 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: was like, I don't really. As I'm drawing it, I 269 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: know I know what an apple looks like. I know 270 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: it looks like an apple. So I just keep drawing, right, 271 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: which is different to how I draw an apple. But again, 272 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: the strategy probably the brain mechanisms are different there, but 273 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: you still get a very similar outcome. 274 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: Also, you found that people can be perfectly good at 275 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: facial recognition and yet they are a fantastic one. They're 276 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: trying to picture a face internally. 277 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a So, this is thing called procep 278 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: pagnosia where people have just trouble recognizing just faces, right, 279 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: nothing else that no perceptions normal comes to a face. 280 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: Show them a picture of Brad Pitt. They're like, I 281 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: don't know. They could use the hair or the clothes, right, 282 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: and that's perceptual. Now, we've found a few cases of 283 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: people that have what looks like pro so pagnosia, but 284 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: only in their imagery, which is pretty wild. Right, So 285 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 2: they have I don't know, proce pagnosia, A fantasia. I've 286 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: got a good name for this, and I've just started 287 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: studying this. But yeah, they don't seem to be able 288 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: to imagine human faces. And when you ask can, they 289 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: say they've got a dog or something, and you say, 290 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: can you imagine the dog's face? They say, yeah, sure, 291 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: no problem, it's just the human face, which is super specific. 292 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: Right now, should also at this point say that a 293 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: fantasia is not just purely visual. When the studies we've 294 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: done it goes there can be full multisensory a fantasia, 295 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: so no mind's ear, no minds smell or taste, none 296 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: of the senses. In the studies we've done, people this 297 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: seem to have Most people have pure visual a fantasia 298 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: or multisensory. The other sort of subtypes of the pure 299 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: auditory a fantasia are very very rare. 300 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: And so let's describe what auditory fantasia would be. So 301 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: you say, okay, picture of betas like symphony. The person says, 302 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: I just have no idea or you know a picture. 303 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: I had the Happy Birthday song in your head. Do 304 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: you hear it? Somebody who is hyper fantasia in that 305 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: way it says, oh, yeah, it's like a symphony. I'm 306 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: hearing the thing, but other people don't hear it. 307 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like, can't get the e worms the 308 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: name for these songs that gets these annoying songs they 309 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: get stuck in our head right so that they have 310 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: no mind's ear. If you're like, they can't now, I 311 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: should say that. In the studies we've done a lot 312 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: of the publicity around a fantasia is around pure visual 313 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 2: a fantasia, so there's always a bias there. When we're 314 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: collecting data in our database international database, a lot of 315 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: those have reached out to us because they've heard about again, 316 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: pure visual imagery, so there could be a bias there 317 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 2: in selecting the participants as well. 318 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: So my impression, but you've got data on this which 319 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: I want to ask you. My impression has been that 320 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: it's actually a dice toss on anything. Like somebody might 321 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: have visual a fantasia, but they've got perfectly good ability 322 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: to imagine the auditory, but not so good at imagining 323 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: let's say, how their muscles would feel if they were 324 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: going up twenty flights of stairs, But they're perfectly good 325 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: at at smell fantasia. 326 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: And it's just each one. 327 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: It is felt to me is sort of a random 328 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: toss of those. But have you found clustering that. 329 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the multisensory across the board is the 330 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: largest group really that and pure visual but that's probably 331 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: a bias. 332 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: And by that you mean someone who has a fantasia 333 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: across all the sensors. 334 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is pretty if you think about it, just 335 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: per second and something that always struck me. What is 336 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: the equivalent in perception. There's no like natural occurring multisensory blindness, right, 337 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: So spatial neglect or something might be the closest thing 338 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: to that, but that's not blindness. So that's an interesting 339 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 2: way that that a fantasial imagery differs from perception. Right 340 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: You just the chances of being blind and having no 341 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: taste and being deaf and through all the senses is 342 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: I don't know the probabilities are, but it's I've never 343 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: come across someone like that, right, right, right, I don't 344 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: know if it exists even. 345 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: It would certainly be very unlucky to have that, that's right. 346 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: But of course it makes sense because you've got all 347 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: these windows on the world that pick up on different 348 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: energy sources, whether photons are compression waves or mixtures and molecules. 349 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: And then but imagery is you know, this this multicolor 350 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: theater that you're putting together on the inside in the Dora, 351 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: in this hurricane of electrical spikes, we're putting together a 352 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: model of the world. So if there's some problem in that, 353 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: in you know, maybe it's a form of consciousness. Essentially, 354 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: that says, okay, here's how he puts this together to 355 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: make this theatrical play. Yeah, that's a really interesting clue 356 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: into what's going on there. 357 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, nicely put. You should write a book. 358 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: David, So okay, But do you also find people like 359 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: I did, where it's you know, it's one and not 360 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: the other, and they're probably good at hearing but not 361 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: at the visualized. 362 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, the hearing is less common, but there is, Yeah, 363 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 2: there is auditory a fantasia, and then there's a sort 364 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 2: of a sub this question as this, where that people 365 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: will be able to get to have a song in 366 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: their mind, but they won't be able to have they 367 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: won't have the voice in their mind right, so they're 368 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: inner monologue. It's in a dialogue thing. Like there's a 369 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 2: lot of people when they read a book, they'll hear 370 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: a voice, some version of their own voice sort of 371 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: saying the words in their mind. And some people won't 372 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: have that, but they'll still be able to you know, 373 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: sing a song or listen to music in their minds. E. 374 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: So that's another, you know, even more specific category. You 375 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: know what this all reminds me of? 376 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: So Okay, In my book Incognito, I wrote about this 377 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: team of rivals framework, which is you've got all these 378 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: neural networks that are all doing different things, and you've 379 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: evolved lots of these over the you know, yawns, and 380 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: so you know, all these different ways of doing things. 381 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: So one of the classes I teach her at Stanford 382 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: is literature in the Brain. 383 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: And one of the questions with literature is if you 384 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: just read some passage. 385 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: From Hemingway, are you inside the character or are you 386 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: watching as though watching a movie seeing the characters there? 387 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: And so I really queried the students on this very carefully, 388 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: and what it seems is that we're doing both. We 389 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: do both, and we kind of switch back and forth. 390 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: If you force someone to answer, they'll do one or 391 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: the other. 392 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: Interesting way, independent of how the first person second, how 393 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 2: the book's written exactly. 394 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: It's just some Hemingway asks scene where it's like some 395 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: guy's talking and doing something. The question is are you 396 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: the guy or are you watching the guy? Yeah, And 397 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: it certainly seems like bounce back and forth pretty seamlessly there. 398 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: So this all comes back to this point you were 399 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: making about all the different strategies that people have to 400 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,719 Speaker 1: solve whatever kind of problem, and maybe visualizing something is 401 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: just one of you know, eight different ways that you 402 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: can get through any problem. 403 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned books there. I think it's interesting. 404 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: So there are some studies going on at the moment 405 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: looking at how much people with a fantasia enjoy reading fiction, 406 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: for example, because a lot of on the online discussions, 407 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of people saying I find fiction boring, 408 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: I don't get into it. And we've run a study 409 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: where we had people come into the lab and read 410 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 2: these scary stories. Right, they're swimming and the something bumps 411 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: their foot and they see a dark shadow and then 412 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: a fin comes past them, and it kind of builds 413 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: and builds until the shark attacks. And when you have 414 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: someone with imagery read that in a dark room with 415 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: one of those skin conductance things on their finger, right, 416 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: measuring these slight changes in sweat, you see this nice 417 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: increase in their sort of their sweat and their heart 418 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: rate goes up and things like that. People with a 419 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: fantas not so much. Pretty much flat lines, right, So 420 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: just so all the doing is reading the words on 421 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: a screen, so that sort of from that those data 422 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: you could sort of put the story together that, yeah, 423 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: then they're not gonna be as emotionally engaged when they're 424 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 2: reading fiction. Oh, that's fascinating. 425 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: And I assume it's the same if they're listening to 426 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: an audiobook. 427 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 2: I think, so we haven't done that with the audio yet, 428 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 2: but interesting, Yeah, it. 429 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: Seems like it would be if the problem is actually 430 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,239 Speaker 1: visualizing what's going on. 431 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could take a go go one 432 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 2: step further, right and say that if you have strong 433 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: imagery and you're listening to an audiobook or a podcast 434 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: while you're driving, and you have these vivid imagery, right, 435 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: it's gonna be way more dangerous, right, You're gonna your 436 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: time to break. You're gonna have it like it's like 437 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: having a high blood alcohol level. So I mean, let's 438 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: be clear, we haven't tested that. It's just the HYPOTHESI 439 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: but yeah, oh fascinating. 440 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, the thing that is it is always 441 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: fascinating the most and lots of my episodes involved this 442 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: is just the diversity from head to head, how how 443 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: different people's realities are. 444 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you. 445 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: Know, maybe there's this question driving tests in one hundred 446 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: years from triving cars, but if there were, you know, 447 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: when they say, okay, look we need a test you 448 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: for this and if so, then we're going to make 449 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: sure your car can't go close enough to the It's. 450 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: On out to do a list of experiments. But I 451 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 2: think it could be a thing or just talking on 452 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: the phone. Right, you're just visualizing what the other person's saying. 453 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: It's going to make a difference. 454 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: Now, how does this pan out a court of law? 455 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: If somebody is hyper fantasic and it has very vivid imagery, 456 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: does that mean it is any more accurate? 457 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: So there's some data suggests that that when your imagery 458 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: is more vivid, your memories are more likely to be corrupted. Right, Wow, 459 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: So you saw something yesterday and I say, then today, 460 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: Then I say, oh, was there a red car there? 461 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: And you try and remember back and you imagine a 462 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: red card. It's very vivid. You have the original memory, 463 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: red car, they're happening together. And then the next day 464 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: I say, was a red car and your memory comes 465 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 2: back and bang the red cars glued onto that into 466 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: that scene. Let's say, and now you remember with a 467 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 2: red car. Right, If your imagery is less vivid, weaker, 468 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: then that probably shouldn't happen. As there's some evidence to 469 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: suggest that. And we're running some studies now looking at 470 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 2: this idea of false memory, false memories, and if they're 471 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: gonna pop up more with strong imagery. 472 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so one of the other class I teach 473 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: you is the brain and the law, and I always 474 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: teach about I would's testimony and the difficulties there like this, 475 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: But I had never considered this question of whether eyewitnesses 476 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: should be tested for their position along the fantasia spectrum, 477 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: so you have some sense of whether they're less likely 478 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: to be accurate. 479 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 2: And it's I think of imagery as just a format 480 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: of our thoughts, right, like this is is distribution. Most 481 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: people were somewhere in the middle here, this normal distribution, 482 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: and each tale you think strong hype, fantasia or idaic 483 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: imagery as it was called sort of a couple of 484 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: decades ago. And then people with a fantasia, people say, 485 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: is it a disorder? Is it a condition? What do 486 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 2: we call it? I don't think. I don't think it's 487 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: not a disorder. That's that's it's not You shouldn't diagnose it. 488 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 2: There's no think about a cure, none of that. Right, 489 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 2: It's part of the normal you diversity, cognitive diversity that 490 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: we all know live in but like you said, it 491 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: will change a range of things, and that's what we're 492 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: testing now. It does change if your thoughts have a 493 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 2: different format. It is going to change you know, a 494 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 2: bunch of things in life. So it does change things. 495 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 496 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: One of the things I study is you know, synesthesia, 497 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: and it's the same issue where it's not a disorder 498 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: some these stage just it's just. 499 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 5: A different way to perceive reality. 500 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: So tell us about alexithymia. You had mentioned to me 501 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: the other day that there's a relationship here. Yeah, so 502 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: we ran this large so define it. 503 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: Sorry, Yes, So alexithymia is this condition where people sort 504 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: of have a lack of emotional response or they feel 505 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: less emotion. 506 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: And they're not very good at diagnosing themselves others. 507 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you could say it's I once say it's 508 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: towards a spectrum of autism, but it's kind of in 509 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: that realm, right, and it's the some links to psychopathy. 510 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 2: So we were testing this as part of a larger 511 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: project looking at empathy, right, And so we measured empathy 512 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: with questionnaires with pictures with these paradigms where you you know, 513 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: here's a horrible disease, would you donate to this cause 514 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: and not for profit. We had to show people videos 515 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 2: across the board and all those things. People with imagery 516 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: scored higher and with empathy than those with a fantasia 517 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 2: and why that's the question. So we thought we original 518 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: hypothesis was that with the questionnaires you see it, but 519 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: once you had a video or a picture, there should 520 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 2: be no difference because imagery shouldn't make a difference, right, 521 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: But it seemed to even with the videos, So we 522 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 2: think it's it's it's initially like, if you're being described 523 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 2: with a scenario and you can conjure up and imagine 524 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 2: that you have this virtuality thing coming up, you're going 525 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: to feel more for that individual or whatever whoever it 526 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 2: might be. And over the years that happens more and 527 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: more and more, so overall your empathy builds and gets stronger. 528 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: So it's the role of imagery in the moment, but 529 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: it's also a developmental thing. So then we started testing 530 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 2: alex A thime Yere as part of that, and that 531 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: sort of is part of the experiment. 532 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: And you had interviewed a memory champion with a fantasia tell, 533 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: which is so surprising, right, But it's surprising because of 534 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: her technique that she used. 535 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a lady in Australia who's actually written 536 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: a book on memory, and she's I think she's one. 537 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: It was international or national memory competitions, right, And I 538 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: think that the most common method is this memory palace, right. 539 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: And this is idea that you imagine your house and 540 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 2: you put them different memories. Let's say it's a deck 541 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: of cards. You have this card here on the entrance, 542 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: and then you walk in the other cards here, and 543 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: you make them a bit more exciting than just a card. 544 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: So you and you walk through and you remember the 545 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 2: deck of cards in this random order. Now, she could 546 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: do this without imagery, and so I asked her how 547 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 2: does she do it? She said, well, I don't use 548 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: my house or anything visual. I used a spatial layer 549 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: of my neighborhood and the roads and where houses are 550 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: and trees. And she has perfect or near perfect spatial layout. 551 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: But the weird thing is when I think of space, 552 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: I think of objects in space, and she doesn't. She 553 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: has these points in space, but they're perfectly laid out. 554 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: And this ties in with experiments we've run on measures 555 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 2: of mental rotation or space questionnaires on spatial abilities and 556 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 2: people with a fantasia score as well or sometimes better 557 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: than people with imagery. So it seems to be the 558 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 2: spatial layout of things seems almost perfectly maintained despite the 559 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: object imagery not being there. Yeah, exactly so. 560 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: And as you know, you know ed Catmill did all 561 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: these things with patterns of how you make let's say, 562 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: a hand out of little patches of space and where 563 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: the light bounces off and what color of the late 564 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: carriers and other stuff. A fantasic he picture it, but 565 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: he understood the physical, you know, the physical sense of it, like, oh, 566 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: there's the thing, and that's what's bouncing off of it. 567 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 1: So I happen to be mostly a fantasic. I'm much 568 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: closer to that end of the spectrum, and so I 569 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: totally get it about this lady saying, Okay, look, if 570 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: i'magining my neighborhood, I know the feeling that this is 571 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: over to this side of that, that's over here and 572 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: that's behind me. But I'm not picturing it particularly well. 573 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: I just but I have a clear sense of three 574 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: dimensional space, and. 575 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: Are they points in space or are they just space existing? 576 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: I feel like more it's just space existing which is 577 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: what I assume Ed has as well, because he probably 578 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: told you. 579 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 4: But you know, he first started. 580 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: Realizing this when he was at a friend's house who's 581 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: a meditator. Said, Okay, I just picture a sphere in 582 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: the air, and I just couldn't do it. And I 583 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: can't do that either. It doesn't really make sense to me. 584 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: But I can, of course have a sense of a sphere, 585 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: like I could touch the sphere and whatever, but I don't. 586 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 2: I don't have any particularly good picture of it. Yeah, 587 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: the image of it. I hear that so often this 588 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 2: someone does a meditation cost and I say picture this 589 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: pist yourself, and they're like, what do they mean? I 590 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: can't do it? 591 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, my entire life. 592 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: This thing about count sheep to go to sleep. 593 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 4: I didn't understand. But can you do that? 594 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: I mean, are you able to picture sheep as such? 595 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 596 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 4: I can? 597 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: Like, right, yeah I can. Yeah, he's he's jumping over 598 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: the fence or whatever. Yeah I can. Yeah. I mean 599 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 2: it's not but let's be clear. So it's not like 600 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: if I'm seeing a sheep right now. It's not that strong. 601 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 2: But I have a conscious experience of a sheep. The 602 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: color I have to kind of zoom in. If I 603 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: want to get the details of the face and the eyes, 604 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: I can't get the details across the whole sheep simultaneously. 605 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: There's a capacity kind of issue there. But I have 606 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: a conscious experience of a sheep, and I can make 607 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: it move around in my mind's eye. Amazing. 608 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: What have you found about creativity? 609 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so creativity is one of these things that I 610 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: get emails all the time, right, people saying I couldn't 611 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: be an artist because I have a fantasia. This is 612 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: the reason why I couldn't be creative, right, And so 613 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: we've run experiments on this. We haven't published the data yet, 614 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 2: but in all the there's all this sort of what 615 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: we call divergent thinking tasks. Right, We've got to come 616 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: up with crazy ideas for a paper clip, as many 617 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: as you can say in three minutes. So we ran 618 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: a hole, got a whole of data. People with a fantasia, 619 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: people with imagery almost no difference, and in fact, on 620 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, slightly better in people with a fantasia. We 621 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: ran convergent thinking tasks, the opposite where people have to 622 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: converge across the board. All these different things we ran. 623 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: There's no evidence that people with a fantasia should be 624 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: less creative. 625 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: Give us an example of conversion thinking. 626 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that might be where you so typically, so 627 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: let's say you're you know, you're in a you're trying 628 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: to come up with a new product or something, and 629 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 2: a meeting at work and you come up with all 630 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: these crazy ideas, one hundred different ideas. Then you've got 631 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: to converge all those crazy ideas down and to say 632 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: just five different things. So you've got to set will 633 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: they work, Well, they won't work. So we came up 634 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: with a task of trying sort of get at the 635 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: essence of that. And I thought that would show a 636 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: difference because I'm like, well, if you're trying and design 637 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: a chair and you imagine a chair with three legs, 638 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: it's going to fall over, and I'm using my imagery 639 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 2: because I have imagery, right then then that's going to 640 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: make show a difference. And it didn't. So we haven't 641 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: been able to find any evidence that people with a 642 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: fantasia are less creative. Again with the ways in which 643 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 2: we measure it, and there is some data, you know, 644 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: large population data saying that generally speaking, people with a 645 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: fantasia are more commonly found in seat of stem science, technology, 646 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: mathematical kind of jobs, and people with imagery are slightly 647 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 2: more likely to be found in the creative industries. Again, 648 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's causal, but there is that 649 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: trend there that people have documented as well. 650 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: I'll be interested to follow those numbers and see if 651 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: they hold true, because this was the surprise for Ed 652 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: when he realized that so many people have picked sorry fantasic. 653 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but there have been. There have been. We had 654 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: an art exhibition in the UK and all the artists 655 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 2: had a fantasia and there's visual there were sculptures, there's 656 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: a conceptual, you name it, and amazing art. I thought, 657 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: I don't think then there's no reason we can see 658 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: or you know, or have measured yet that there should 659 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: be a deficit in creativity. And tell us about episodic memory. 660 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: Episodic because episodes are in your life, so childhood memories, 661 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 2: what I did last week, what I did last year, 662 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: and so the way one of the main ways of 663 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,239 Speaker 2: measuring this is with a type of interview. So we 664 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 2: use a task like that where people have to sort 665 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: of bring a memory to mind that was like one 666 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: month ago, six months ago, one year ago, different sort 667 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: of control, try and control as best we can the time. 668 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: And we found that people with a fantasia come up 669 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: with less details from their memory than people with imagery, 670 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: and it was less vivid than a whole lot of 671 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: things were different about the experience, but simply the objects 672 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: in the memory they could name were less if you 673 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: have a fantasia. It's not like catastrophically dramatically different. Was 674 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: clearly significant, So doesn't The memories are still there, but 675 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: there is a clear difference that. 676 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: Doesn't surprise me at all. I have a very difficult 677 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: time pulling up memories because I'm not picturing much of anything. 678 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: As you know, I've done a lot of research on 679 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: how we judge the passage of time, and so much 680 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: of it has to do with how much footage you 681 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: can bring up. So if you have a really exciting 682 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: weekend and so it says, hey, how long has it 683 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: been since Friday? Said, oh my god, it's been ever 684 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: since I was at work on Friday. Because this, But 685 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: so it makes me wonder if people with hyper fantasia 686 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: feel as though they've lived longer because they've got all 687 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: this memory, they all this footage, they can draw on. 688 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: I think, so, have you ever done the float tank? 689 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 4: I haven't. 690 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: Ah, So that's one of the things where I completely 691 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: lose track of time. But I got my thoughts. I 692 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: get to these deep spirals of thoughts and this, and 693 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 2: I'm imagining this thing. It's I'm not hallucinating because people 694 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: say they hallucinate in the float tank. And then I think, well, 695 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: it's probably been five minutes, and then like fifty minutes 696 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 2: is up like that, and I completely use track of time. 697 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 2: But I think it's a really interesting thing. But yeah, 698 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: I want to do this experiment now and see if 699 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 2: hyper fantastics have, like I feel like their life has 700 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: been much longer because every time they recall things, it 701 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: gets these sort of high reds images get jammed in down. 702 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: So when they look for the footage of what happened 703 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: since I saw you last time, well this, this, this, this, this, 704 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: it's been a month there. That was my interview with 705 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: Joel Pearson, and the bottom line is that there's a 706 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: great deal of internal variety of experience, much more than 707 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: any of us would naively expect. What we learn with 708 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: time and experience and scientific study is that when you 709 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 1: introspect about what experience is like. All you can ever 710 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: do is introspect on what your experience is like. As 711 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: a scientific community, we're really just at the foot of 712 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: the mountain on this topic. There's so much more exploration 713 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: that has to be done to understand the differences in 714 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: reality from head to head. Just as one example, a 715 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: new study came out about what's called and endophasia, which 716 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: is a lack of internal voice. So phasia refers to language, 717 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: endophasia means internal language, and an endophasia means a lack 718 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: of internal language and endophasia, So it turns out you 719 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: might have thought that everyone has the same degree of 720 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: talking to themselves on the inside, but they don't. The 721 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,240 Speaker 1: loudness of your internal radio differs from head to head, 722 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: And when this sort of thing gets subjected to study, 723 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: you can see that people all the way at one 724 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: end of the spectrum with an indophasia no internal voice, 725 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: they are worse at memorizing words because presumably they're not 726 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: hearing the words over and over, and they're worse at 727 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: recognizing rhymes that are written on a page but not heard, 728 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: because presumably if your brain is imagining how the word sound, 729 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: you'll immediately pick up on rhymes, even if they're not obvious, 730 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: like enough and stuff or though and foe and go Anyway. 731 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: I haven't studied this population yet, but they may well 732 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: be better at some other things, like without the constraints 733 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: of verbal thought, they might approach certain types of problems 734 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: more creatively or unconventionally. Or maybe they're privileged in certain 735 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: artistic abilities where visual experiences are more prominent. I don't 736 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: know yet until we study this, but that's the kind 737 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: of thing that one could look for. We all tackle 738 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: the tasks of the world given the tools that we have. 739 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 1: And this is a more general story, not just about 740 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: our brains, but our bodies. We all have different genetic 741 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: programs that unpack different bodies. Some taller, some shorter, some narrower, 742 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: some wider. Some people are good sprinters and others are 743 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: good marathon runners, and. 744 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 2: On and on. 745 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: But for the most part, all bodies say cool, I'll 746 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: just figure out how to use the machinery of the 747 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: world chairs and cars and bicycles and surfboards and pogo 748 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 1: sticks and so on. Some people have advantages for certain things, 749 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: like Kareem old Jabbar given his height for playing basketball, 750 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: or Michael Phelps his wingspan for swimming. But for the 751 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: rest of us, we cobble together our many different skills 752 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: to manage our tasks in the world, and this is 753 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: the way that we all find our way through the 754 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: mental landscape. Whether you are someone who has internal visualization 755 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: like a movie or instead just has concepts, you can 756 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: both do art, you can develop different approaches to tackle 757 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: that mountain, and more likely you even cobble together many 758 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: different approaches. So when we talk about neurodiversity, it goes 759 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: deeper than you think. Quite possibly, we are each a 760 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: minority of one. Go to Eagleman dot com slash podcast 761 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: for more information and to find further reading. Send me 762 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: an email at podcast ask an Eagleman dot com with 763 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: questions or discussion, and check out and subscribe to Inner 764 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: Cosmos on YouTube for videos of each episode and to 765 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: leave comments Until next time. I'm David Eagleman and this 766 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: is Inner Cosmos.