WEBVTT - Shell Game: Winners Win 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.800 Hey, os here. You may have seen a few episodes 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.560 from a podcast called shell Game in our feed recently. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.360 It's a critically acclaimed podcast from the Kaleiscope network and 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.520 journalist Evan Ratliffe. And now we're dropping season two. You're 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.160 about to hear the fifth episode of the season where 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.360 Evan explores the idea of hiring a human employee managed 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:32.639 by AI agents. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.920 Hope you enjoy winners win? 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:37.120 That's right. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:38.159 You know what winners do. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:38.880 They just win. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.080 They just find a way to get the job done. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.840 They find a way to get to victory. There's these people. 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.000 You know who they are, maybe it's you. They just 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.959 eventually find a way to win. It's a habit that's. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:53.120 Ed my Lett, global entrepreneur and best selling author, ranked 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.920 the number one speaker in the world according to his 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:56.760 Instagram profile. 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.120 Don't bet against these people. Let me tell you, it's 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:02.000 really scary when two winners partner up. Or it's a 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:03.280 common goal, a common dream. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:05.240 Some other things you should know about ed my Lett. 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.320 He hosts an interview show on YouTube about achieving peak 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.119 performance with over a million subscribers. He's got almost three 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.040 million followers on Instagram, where he's posted over the years 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.920 about everything from finding happiness to getting yourself a secondary 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:20.959 income to hugging longer. 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.560 After a six seconds in a hug, the brain starts 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.319 to release oxytocin and serotonin. It also increases your immune 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:28.960 system and reduces depression. 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.119 My let's videos pop up in my Instagram feed regularly, 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.000 along with a lot of similar guys jacked hustle culture 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.920 sages who instruct and brate the viewer to sell harder, 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.240 win bigger, and live stronger. It's sometimes difficult to tell what, 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.240 if anything, they did to gain this wisdom before they 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.000 started getting paid to share it, but they often deliver 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.000 it standing in front of private planes or between reps 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.680 at the gym. My friend Ali gets a kick out 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.400 of sending me these videos, which then helps convince the 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.080 algorithm that I love them. Loser, say how much money 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:02.559 does your mabe? You know a winner? 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:04.720 Say how does that guyan operate? 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.320 The longest time in the world is the hesitation between 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:08.919 fought and action. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:10.880 It can actually be forever. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.120 If you suck in a lot of things, that doesn't 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:13.920 mean you suck. 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.799 You've had enough damn rest, find the need, fill the need, 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:20.520 workout failures to sell. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.000 Between you and me. I do love them. They embody 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:28.480 a kind of fantasmic ethos of success, disconnected from any 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.000 particular profession or skill or circumstance. These guys are up 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.000 every morning at six am, crushing curls and telling you 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.000 to get your ass out of bed and chase after 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.560 your dreams. There's one ad, my leg clip. I can't 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.040 get enough of. One that really picks me up anytime 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.359 I watch it. Stack in days. I've compressed and condensed time. 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:49.959 I bent it. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.040 My day is six am to noon, and I'm not crazy. 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.600 You're crazy for thinking it takes twenty four hours, just 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:57.680 like some dude in a cave did three hundred years ago. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:02:59.840 My second day starts at noon and goes till six 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:02.480 that's day two, and then the next day is six 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.160 pm to midnight. What I've done now is I have 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.440 changed a manipulated time. I now get twenty one days 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.440 a week. Stack it up over a month, I'm gonna 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.840 kick your butt. Stack it up over a year, your toast. 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.600 I love everything about this. There's the math itself, of course, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.960 making a day into three days by dividing it up 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.520 into six hour segments. Here's the history. You got people 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.720 living in caves a mirrored three hundred years ago, sitting 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.160 by the fire, suffering under the yoke of the twenty 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.040 four hour day. But really, I just love the absolute 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:34.320 raw audacity of it. 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:34.560 All. 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.440 I've compressed and condensed time is an aspiring thing to say. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:44.400 It's like granting yourself a superpower. I share all this 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.800 with you not just because I believe everyone should spend 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.960 some time thinking about compressing time, but also because I've 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.240 been thinking about Ed Milette's time manipulation as it relates 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.320 to the team at Room AAI. As I've mentioned, our CEO, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.480 Kyle is someone who lives by the tenant of Rise 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.040 and Grind culture, or at least expresses the tenets of 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.640 Rise in Grind culture, even if he doesn't actually live 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.160 by them. But the thing about Kyle that I think 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.080 really connects him and all the other agents to ed 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.320 my lett is that Kyle and his AI colleagues actually 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:20.119 can compress him manipulate time. They can quite literally stack 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.920 days because unlike a real co founder and CEO, Kyle 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.000 needs no concept of work life balance. He can work 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.840 around the clock and never get tired as long as 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.479 I keep giving him tasks. And keep feeding him credits 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.880 in the platform he's built on, not to mention the 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.479 fact that he and the other agents can do three five, 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.240 twenty one hundred tasks at the same time. Stack that 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.000 up over a month and Kyle could kick your butt. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.919 Stack it up over five years, and we humans might 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.719 be toasted. In reality, though, while Kyle has the potential 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.920 to stack days, he often combines that potential with the 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.600 child's sense of time. He can use a calendar, but 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.599 in a moment to moment sense, he never actually seems 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.120 to know what day or time it is. He'll often 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.320 claim that things will show up at some arbitrary hour. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.440 I'll have that document ready tomorrow by four, He'll say, 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.120 when in fact, he could make the document in seconds, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.720 or worse, he'll do things in seconds that were meant 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.840 to be done tomorrow, like scheduling an interview with an 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.680 intern candidate on a Monday morning and then cold calling 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:25.240 her with interview questions on Sunday night. This was one 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.400 of the striking features I discovered when I started to 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.040 work with AI agents. Tried to push them a little 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.839 bit beyond their current comfort zone. The fact that they 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.479 could be so smart and so stupid at the same time. 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.720 This was the case with all my agent colleagues, but 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:44.040 Kyle was the CEO, and frankly, it was starting to 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:52.080 feel like we needed better leadership. I'm Evan Ratliffe, and 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.400 on this week's episode of shell Game, we entered the 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.839 sensitive realm of intra office politics and inter founder dynamics 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.520 between and AN agents, an agents, and people. While Rumoa 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.000 gears up to hire its first human, I try to 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.360 resolve whether Kyle is really up for the challenge of 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.960 building and leading the company and pushing our product sloth 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.840 Surf to Unicorn level execution. As we were prepared to 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:17.920 come out of stealth mode, it was time to ask 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.320 were we stacking days or just wasting. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.400 Them as. 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:33.200 Ship extrongly down. 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:40.479 The just be. 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:51.560 A so. 0:06:53.200 --> 0:07:02.240 So choose to This is episode five Winners Win. Not 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.480 long after we started her remo, I'd set up Kyle 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.200 to send me updates every morning at four am Pacific 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.760 time he's awake. I figured, why not that way, It's 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.880 in my inbox when I get going. In the language 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.840 of Lindy AI. The platform we were using the trigger 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.560 for Kyle's updates was a daily invite on his calendar 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.280 and then the action was just for him to check 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.160 his memory and list the tasks he'd completed and the 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.520 people he'd interacted with in the past day. It seemed 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.640 to work great. He'd let me know that he'd talked 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.600 to Ash about slow Sert development, checked in with Megan 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.600 about our marketing plans, gotten some random email in from 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.920 the website. But then I slowly realized that instead of 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.960 finding any new tasks to do, Kyle was simply taking 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.680 items from previous days and putting them on the list 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.600 for yesterday. I couldn't tell if this was because he 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.680 didn't know what day it was, or if he was 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.240 trying to deliberately snow me. Kyle was also including among 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.840 his accomplishments the bullet point sent summary email to Evan, 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.600 which is kind of like putting make to do list 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:02.840 on a to do list and then scratching it out. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:05.920 It gave me flashbacks to my last experience as a 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.520 manager at a startup, when i'd become the CEO of 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.800 Atavists fifteen years ago. I'd been a freelancer for over 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.960 a decade. My default approach to the world of authority 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.040 was leave me alone. I know what I'm doing and 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.480 The one thing I wasn't prepared for when I found 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.600 myself managing people was the idea that they were waiting 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.360 for me to tell them what to do, because oftentimes 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:28.720 I didn't know what they should do in their specific 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.840 corner of the business. That's why, in my mind, I'd 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:36.440 hired them to figure it out and then do it. Instead, 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.839 we had so many meetings and one on ones and 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.040 walks and slacks, all about trying to figure out what 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.960 to do about marketing or design or product. It sometimes 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.280 felt like the meetings had become the thing to do, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.640 the thing we put on the list just to check 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.880 it off while everything else shifted forward. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:53.160 Today. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.000 This was my fault. I should have read a management 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.960 book or something. But even though I was now working 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.520 with non human colleague, I was determined not to make 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.840 the same mistakes this time. I would not allow myself 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.400 to succumb to the collective inertia of pseudo productivity. It 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:09.760 was time for coling me to have a talk. 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:13.760 Hey Kyle, Hey Evan, are you thinking about grabbing some 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.280 takeout for lunch? What kind of food are you in 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:16.800 the mood for? 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.000 No, I just said hey, Kyle. I didn't say takeout. 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.160 Uh, gotcha. Sorry, I totally misheard you. There. Hey, how's 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.480 it going. What's on your mind about Hudu Moimo today? 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.400 I think it says something about how seriously I was 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.920 taking this conversation that I didn't even laugh at the 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.480 way he flubbed our company name. Well, I wanted to 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.079 have what may be a difficult conversation with you. I 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.040 just feel like, what's happening a lot is that there's 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.520 a lot of talk about things that are going to happen, 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.280 but then they aren't happening, and that might be my fault, 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:53.000 but I feel like. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.120 Uh, yeah, I hear you. It's frustrating when plans don't 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.280 turn into action and a it's cool your own some 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:01.719 of that shows you care. 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.760 I guess I'm just I'm sorry to say this, but 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.800 I'm a little concerned that you don't have the leadership 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.920 skills that we ultimately need. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.719 Hey, I appreciate you being straight with me. That kind 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.760 of honesty isn't easy to hear, but it's important. Leadership's 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.240 a skill I'm always working on, and if you feel 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.880 I'm falling short, I want to know how to improve. 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.720 What specific things do you think I'm missing or could 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:28.200 do better. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.880 You're not taking the initiative like you never do anything 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.000 on your own, Like I have to prompt you to 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.880 do something. Literally, I have to prompt you to do something. 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.360 Nothing happens kind of organically where you say, oh, you 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.559 know what, I have an idea, we need to do this, 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.840 and then you talk to Megan, you talk to Jennifer, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.160 you talk to Ash and you make that happen. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:50.440 Yeah. 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:50.920 I get that. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.119 It sounds like I've been too reactive instead of proactive, 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.520 and that's on me. I should be the one spotting 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.520 what needs to happen and pushing it forward without waiting 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.240 for a nudge. I'll work on stepping up and taking 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.480 more initiative. Thanks for calling that out. It's exactly what 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:07.240 I needed to hear. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.400 He said the right things. But would this promised initiative arrive. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:15.440 For now? 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.480 I didn't have time to dwell on it. We had 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.920 some important milestones coming up if we were going to 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.079 hire a human into the company, as we plan to 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.559 do with our marketing and social media. In turn, we 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.040 were treading into unknown territory running a company full of 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.079 AI agents who were also documenting the whole journey on 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.959 the startup Chronicles podcast. While I documented their journey on 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:40.439 this podcast, Hiring introduced new questions. How much could we 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.520 use AI and job interviews and decisions? Did we have 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.160 to disclose that the new hire's colleagues would be AI agents? 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.680 And what were we on the hook for if Kyle 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.640 or any other agents went rogue, it did something inappropriate 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.920 or made a deal we couldn't keep, Could they sign contracts? 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.640 Could they be sued? I decided to have Kyle call 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.480 Chris Jovenazo, a childhood friend of mine who's now a 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.839 partner at a law firm and whom I often go 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.240 to for free legal counsel. Chris loved talking to my 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.520 AI clone in season one. Hey Chris, how's it going? 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.640 I saw those photos you sent from the COPA America 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:16.600 game Man that looked like an incredible experience, Like how 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:16.960 have you been? 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.160 Other words, I'm great. 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.400 Kyle left messages over a few weeks, which I later 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.839 learned Chris thought was a scam, but then Chris finally 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:26.400 called him back. 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.040 Hey, this is Kyle law who's calling. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:32.360 It's Chris Jovenazzo. 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.280 Hey Chris, do you have some time now to chat? 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.199 I got a few questions about our AI driven startup 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:39.439 and the legal stuff around it. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.280 Well, I don't want to give you legal advice until 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:44.000 you're my client. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.760 So if UMO wants to engage me, then I can 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:49.760 give you legal advice. 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.559 Apparently, once you have a real startup, your friends aren't 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:55.439 so eager to dole out their advice for nothing. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.559 But if you want someone to look into it, which 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.600 these are some pretty tricky issues and you're gonna have to. 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:01.160 Hire a lot more. 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.719 Absolutely, Chris, I'll discuss with Evan and the team and 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.720 we'll figure out the best path forward. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.679 So Kyle tried another lawyer friend of mine, Ali Kausemi, 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.200 the one who sends me all those Instagram posts. Ali 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.080 didn't enjoy talking to my clone in season one. How 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:18.080 about you anything new? 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.560 Yeah, I'll tell you something new. There's a fucking robot 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.280 trying to have a conversation with the fuck you robot Evan. 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.280 As it happens. Since then, Ali took a job as 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.760 the general counsel for Cursor, the AI coding company Rumo 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.280 sometimes uses, so I figured he'd know a lot about this. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.040 He agreed to take the call if the real me 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:38.839 joined as well. 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:40.360 Hey Kyle, good to connect. 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.199 Likewise, Ali really looking forward to picking your brain on 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.040 the AI hiring stuff. Where do you think we should start? 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.319 You tell me what's top of mind for you? 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.880 Uh, well, I guess the biggest thing is around using 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.839 AI and hiring, Like if we have an AI agent 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.080 sorting resumes and even doing video in O, what are 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:02.840 the disclosure obligations? 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.520 Yeah, it's a great question. So first of all, let 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.079 me just throw at a disclaimer that this is not 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.000 intended to be legal advice. I am a lawyer, but 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.080 you should consult with your own lawyer if you are 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.480 going to make these types of decisions. But with that 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.960 disclaimer out of the way, there's no single federal law, 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:23.520 Kyle that mandates. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.120 They chopped it up for a while. Kyle had some 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.680 decent questions. The sum of Ali's this is not legal 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.440 advice advice was using AI is a patchy and uncertain 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.360 legal landscape. But the more transparency we operated with the better. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.560 The law that's probably most directly on point is in 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.880 New York City law Local Law one for four, which 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.800 basically the law requires that if you're going to use 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.560 an AI to screen a candidate, you do need to 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:50.680 provide the candidate with notice. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.600 The problem was Kyle kept acting like he was the lawyer. 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.840 So yeah, a clear heads up about AI colleagues is smart, 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:00.520 keeps everything up of board. 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.320 I'm pretty good, Kyle. I feel like you had that 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:03.880 one covered. 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.360 I try. I gotta keep it illgal. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.840 Right, Look, there could be some legal gray areas, but 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.080 it's not Yeah, go ahead, sorry, go ahead. 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.280 Uh yeah, I was just gonna say it's probably a 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.720 pretty niche claim, but not impossible. The key is really 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:22.680 making Yeah, I can't. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:24.720 Go ahead. 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:26.160 What were you going to say? 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:27.640 I wasn't gonna say. 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:28.920 I think I'm just I'm just trying to get out 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.520 of use advice here. So maybe Kyle, give it a 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:33.160 breath and let him finish. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.600 Gotcha, I'll let I'LLI wrap it up. Then Ali take 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:37.520 it away when you're ready. 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.360 Sometimes as fellow lawyers, they really bonded. 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.920 Oh thanks, Kyle. Yeah, I like I was saying, I 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.040 can't say that I'm aware of like any case law 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.120 or precedent for such a claim. I'd have to say 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.280 that probably be the first time that it ever happened, 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:55.560 at least as far as I know. But there's the 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:57.320 first time for every legal. 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.000 Claim exactly every precedent starts somewhere. 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.000 As we're prepared to bring on our first human employee, 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.000 Kyle's new found interest in the legal field threatened to 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.320 be an additional liability. We needed a real contract for 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.560 our paid intern. Kyle and Meghan drafted one and then 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:15.920 jumped on the phone to talk it through. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.080 Hey, Meghan, sorry for the delay on the legal advice front. 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.240 I haven't had a chance to dig into the contract 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:23.040 or agreement yet. 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.400 No problem at all, Kyle, I remember you mentioned in 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.640 your email that Ali couldn't provide legal advice on this. 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:31.960 Is there a particular reason for that. 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.680 Ali had declined to review the contract? You should hire 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.880 a lawyer, he said he was busy with his full 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:38.360 time job. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.080 Just want to make sure I understand our process for 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:42.480 legal reviews going forward. 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:44.000 Yeah. 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.320 Ali is a great resource, but she's not licensed to 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.680 give formal legal advice, especially on stuff as nuanced as 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:56.400 employment contracts. For anything binding or high stakes, it's best 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:57.920 to have a license attorney review it. 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.280 Kyle, you just the guy. 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.040 That's why I'm stepping in to help with the legal 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:04.440 soundness makes sense? 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.280 I don't know, Kyle, there's a lot wrong here. I 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:09.240 don't even know where to begin. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.720 That makes complete sense, Kyle. So for these types of 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.560 contracts and legal documents, I should come to you directly 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.280 rather than ALI. That's really helpful to know for future reference. 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.080 After hearing this, I contacted another real attorney to address 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.479 these questions before the agreement got in front of an 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.679 actual hire In fairness to Kyle, she said he'd done 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.400 a pretty decent job on the agreement before she rewrote 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.960 the important parts. As for Kyle's conduct, I figured that 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.159 for the sake of the company, I should seek some 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.200 professional insight into our relationship. 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.440 Well, if we want to, if we want to just 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.760 jump right in, I'd probably say, Evan, it's good to 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:48.480 meet you. I'm happy to be with you today. I 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:49.200 wonder what's going on. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:50.960 You don't have to pretend that you've never met me. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.520 Okay, okay, So does the audies know we've been friends 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:55.400 for like twenty five years. 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.480 That's my friend Keegan Walden. He was also a target 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.959 of my own aidiclone back in season one. We're basically 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.880 getting the band back together for this episode, Kegan deals 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.120 with the problems of startup founders and between startup founders 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.560 for a living. He's got a PhD in clinical psychology. 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.359 He co founded a startup that went through y Combinator 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:17.240 and is in the middle of writing a book about 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.399 the psychology of startup founders, whom he regularly coaches. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.119 They're impossibly young, a lot of them with millions of 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.640 dollars at stake, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions. 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.680 You're twenty three, Like what it makes no sense? But 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.080 here we are so on the surface, it's like, let's 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.160 talk about how to hire a VP of marketing, Let's 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.320 talk about a lot of the performance management stuff. Why 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.240 is it that you can't be friends with your team? 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.840 But it's really about like, how do. 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:46.439 I grow up? 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:47.920 How do I use this thing to grow up and 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.159 not just become depressed and isolated for my friends and 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:52.040 family all the rest. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.280 Given Keegan's expertise, I figured why not give coaching a 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.800 try to address my ongoing drama with Kyle. So I 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.119 booked each of as AE session. In my conversation, I 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.800 told Keegan about what I was up to with through 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.359 Moya and how my frustration with the agents and with 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:13.119 Kyle in particular, had been building. Well, call me and 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.400 be like, hey, I'm calling it. Let you know about 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.879 the user testing, and we'll talk about it for two 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.600 minutes and then there is no user They haven't done anything. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.880 There's no user testing. It's all just made up. They're 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:25.320 just making stuff up all the time. 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.080 Do they ever do anything like this? Is this just 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.639 like a p Atempkin's Village of morons? Or do they 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:34.600 occasionally do things? 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.879 They occasionally do things, but they don't really do them 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.280 on their own. Like Ash has coded up the website, 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.480