Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,
Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case underwear listening Hunt Me podcast.
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by First, like creating proven
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear
Speaker 1: for every hunt First, like go farther, stay longer. He's
Speaker 1: a conservation. Jim Heffelfinger is back, the famous Jim Heffelfinger.
Speaker 1: I feel like you're gonna beat my ass and trivia,
Speaker 1: which kind of makes you wish you hadn't come. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd like to donate to Mealer Foundation. You already got
Speaker 1: it figured out, because see I feel like you're already
Speaker 1: gonna win anyway. And then Spencer's gonna throw you a bone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well he should. Everybody gets the ringer, don't. They just
Speaker 1: don't like it. I don't know. When I play at
Speaker 1: home sometimes I really don't do very well, and those
Speaker 1: bones don't seem to be automatic, and by any means
Speaker 1: they're not. So Yeah, Um, the Instagram came for you, Jim.
Speaker 1: They did shut me down, banished. I understand, how Like
Speaker 1: I don't get it, and they don't call you and say, Jim,
Speaker 1: by god, we've had enough, there's nobody that makes those decisions.
Speaker 1: In my Instagram account. My old one that I had
Speaker 1: built for years, which was Jim Dear, was just shut down.
Speaker 1: They just said the account's been disabled. No, you don't
Speaker 1: think it has to do with like the fact that
Speaker 1: you're not Jim to your tractors. Yeah, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: like like like because yeah, but I mean, didn't you
Speaker 1: use that little icon? Yeah? I use the icon and
Speaker 1: photoshoped that to be a mule deer instead of a
Speaker 1: white tailed But if you look on there, there's a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other people that use that icon and
Speaker 1: everything else. So I don't I don't think that was it,
Speaker 1: and it was because you like to shoot pistols. I do.
Speaker 1: I shoot pistols competitively, but I've been posting those pistol
Speaker 1: shooting videos for ten years, as have everybody I shoot
Speaker 1: competitively with. So it's really I think it's just like
Speaker 1: a random a I bought some kind of something randomly
Speaker 1: was triggered. Well, have you tried to do the appeals? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just have a certified account. I don't know what
Speaker 1: certified is. I don't either, but it's the thing I did.
Speaker 1: I didn't have feel like if you have the little
Speaker 1: blue check mark next to your name, Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think so. I'm is there a point at which you
Speaker 1: just get too big though, when they're not going to
Speaker 1: shut you down? Like, is there? You could take the
Speaker 1: President United States for instance, you get shut down on
Speaker 1: social media? So maybe no, maybe not? Yeah, I did
Speaker 1: send it a pie. Sure, Kardashian is no way, there's
Speaker 1: too bad. There's too bad. No. Yeah, you can get
Speaker 1: kicked off. You can, they'll kick you off. It depends
Speaker 1: on your politics, don't get they don't kick off like
Speaker 1: super left wing people. Maybe they do. Does Bill Marv
Speaker 1: get kicked off Instagram? No? No clue, b huh you're
Speaker 1: not super left wing. No, you're right. But he's controversial.
Speaker 1: He's controversial. He's like to have a list of famous
Speaker 1: left wingers kicked off social media. There's guy be some
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, so that's too bad, man, So
Speaker 1: you had to start over again. I feel like you
Speaker 1: need to get in there and try to like figure
Speaker 1: it out, man. I did for two months. For two months,
Speaker 1: and for the first month and a half, I sent
Speaker 1: one of those appeals at least every other day, and
Speaker 1: it just out ends the black hole, no response, no
Speaker 1: response from from Instagram at all. So after about two months,
Speaker 1: I just shrugged my shoulders and started a new one.
Speaker 1: Is it really that uh lifeless and soulless that know
Speaker 1: that you can appeal that many times and no one's
Speaker 1: ever going to just shoot you a note saying there's
Speaker 1: nothing that can be done, here's what you did wrong.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought so, but yeah, apparently apparently like
Speaker 1: no response for like nobody, nobody is listening to, nobody's responding,
Speaker 1: and there's probably not like a phone number you can. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like you get some customers if your account has been canceled,
Speaker 1: press five and they have over a billion subscribers Instagram
Speaker 1: does worldwide, So I mean they're not watching accounts. They're
Speaker 1: not they're not probably not manually canceling accounts. There's probably
Speaker 1: some AI s, a artificial intelligence that's that's just getting
Speaker 1: triggered and shutting things down because there's made people that
Speaker 1: are dup duplicates and businesses and stuff. I mean, you
Speaker 1: got like eight billion people. One of our camera guys,
Speaker 1: when you hear someone doing something totally insane, or someone
Speaker 1: says like I wonder if anyone blank. His reply is, man,
Speaker 1: there's eight million people on this planet. Eight billion people
Speaker 1: on this planet. Of course someone does that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the new accounts servant Nut, which is you got
Speaker 1: you gotta start from scratch now, Yeah, it's really exciting
Speaker 1: to put together these. Really, I don't think I'm gonna
Speaker 1: follow serving Nut right now. I'm sitting here. You're already
Speaker 1: on Zuckerberg's radar, Man, I know, I know I'm on
Speaker 1: the list. Let's see. It's ce r v I D
Speaker 1: and ut don't tell you know? Zuckerberg is building a
Speaker 1: development in town here. Really. I learned that from Kylie's
Speaker 1: husband because I follow him on Instagram. What kind of development,
Speaker 1: housing development? I don't know. Yeah. So you know, I
Speaker 1: can't think of that dude without thinking of him in
Speaker 1: the movie that movie, uh, Social Network, Like, I can't
Speaker 1: think of him without being that kid, the character. Okay,
Speaker 1: here I am, I'm following you and then, um, but
Speaker 1: you're already up to you, do you? You already up
Speaker 1: to four or fifty four? Yeah? I know it? Four hundred?
Speaker 1: That amazing? How many? How many did you have had?
Speaker 1: About four thousand? So I wasn't a huge account you build? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you build some you you build some followers, and then
Speaker 1: you just start over and then you put this really
Speaker 1: cool post out there, and and you you know, you
Speaker 1: got a hundred and two followers and two dogars. Do
Speaker 1: everything I can to help you out. Oh your kids
Speaker 1: all good for the tickets? Oh excellent? Can you rest
Speaker 1: easy now? So are you just gonna keep posting like
Speaker 1: you did before or you're gonna change things? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: know I've already already posted, already posted some shooting videos
Speaker 1: right after I established account. And some said what do
Speaker 1: you do when you're gonna get banned again? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: I better try it out now when you have a
Speaker 1: hundred followers than to build it up again that because
Speaker 1: everybody else does it. I mean everybody is a competitive
Speaker 1: shooters posting videos of them shooting. And plus we don't know,
Speaker 1: you don't know, because what about like Taylor Thorn, all
Speaker 1: she does is poet. Let me look, is she still alive?
Speaker 1: And I know she's alive. I mean she's is she
Speaker 1: like she's she's still on the Graham. But that's what
Speaker 1: Jim saying is that he doesn't we don't know what
Speaker 1: canceled it. No, but I'm trying to know. Here she
Speaker 1: is shooting up a storm. What's that guy's name that
Speaker 1: was at the Vortex shooting Ruben? But no, there was
Speaker 1: another guy. It's like Josh, I forget his name. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just watching his shooting videos the other day
Speaker 1: instag because I shoot competitively and I have a lot
Speaker 1: of friends that are shooters. You know my fee He's
Speaker 1: gonna come on the show someday. Here he is shooting
Speaker 1: up a storm. Yeah, he posts a bunch about shoot
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you're maybe you're not good at shooting. Maybe
Speaker 1: they maybe they got an AI that finds people who
Speaker 1: aren't that good with a pistol, probably too slow. It's
Speaker 1: like inaccurate. Shut his account down. I guess you'd better
Speaker 1: pistol behind my back. I hesitate to bring this up.
Speaker 1: Jim Um, I called you dumb. Did you have one
Speaker 1: last thing you wanted to say about hottest spell white
Speaker 1: tailed deer? I do, but you know you you said
Speaker 1: that I say stupid shot all the time, which I do.
Speaker 1: But no, no, no, no, I would have never have
Speaker 1: said that, but that balanced. I think the previous podcaster
Speaker 1: where you said I was the smartest guy on the planet.
Speaker 1: So I said about one thing. Maybe you say that
Speaker 1: one thing too much. Well, now that you're stupid about
Speaker 1: two things, I feel like you just got burned. You
Speaker 1: put your hand in the fire and got burned. Your
Speaker 1: hands back on the fire on Instagram. So there's like
Speaker 1: one way I think being really smart and so've done
Speaker 1: things are not excluding mutually exclusively. The second way you're
Speaker 1: dumb is this is you and Dirkin's like like white
Speaker 1: dot tailed dear thing. You you almost cleared it all
Speaker 1: up recently, and then right at the end you just
Speaker 1: you botched it. Yeah, like like you realiz I'm not.
Speaker 1: You feel as though I'm not giving your argument effective. Yeah,
Speaker 1: previously you weren't explaining the argument, and then you read
Speaker 1: my email and you got it like you got it
Speaker 1: perfect because you're reading my email. And then right at
Speaker 1: the end we rehash that's because I didn't read the email.
Speaker 1: It's okay, Jim's gonna set the whole damn thing up.
Speaker 1: But when you do, you better give my point. Good, No,
Speaker 1: you can do it. It would be more entertaining. Problem. Okay,
Speaker 1: how do you feel this is the I swear to
Speaker 1: God we will never talk about this again. How do
Speaker 1: you if you had a spell. Okay, the deer that
Speaker 1: lives in America, but not mule deer. Spell it for me?
Speaker 1: Do you I T E t A I L e ed. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: that's a different Okay, sorry, So yeah, yeah, some people
Speaker 1: spell e D. You could just put T A I
Speaker 1: l A well correct correct, but but but I know
Speaker 1: there's a hepple finger here and Dirk and they're like,
Speaker 1: I acquit it to people who go V and thou.
Speaker 1: They feel that it's w H I T E dash
Speaker 1: t A I L E D and like, sure, but
Speaker 1: no one in their right mind is going to write that.
Speaker 1: And I was pointing out that every book I've ever written,
Speaker 1: when I get it back from the copy editor, the
Speaker 1: copy editor has gone in and turned them all into that,
Speaker 1: and I then need to go back in and stat.
Speaker 1: Let me give you a little book, right, and STAT
Speaker 1: is when an editor makes like if, when an editor
Speaker 1: makes a correction in your manuscript and you're like, no,
Speaker 1: you're wrong, you write STAT. That stands for stop doing that,
Speaker 1: back off, back on. So the editor wanted to hyphenate
Speaker 1: it because it's like it's sort of if it's like
Speaker 1: the and thou, it's almost antiquated spelling, and and Dirk
Speaker 1: and like once it's Dirk and what was the magazine?
Speaker 1: Dirk And used to work for Deer and Deer Hunting.
Speaker 1: He bought the first Megan the article I ever sold
Speaker 1: Dirkin when he was the editor of Deer and Deer
Speaker 1: Honey in the nineties. Yeah, the long we've known each other.
Speaker 1: That's back when they said, okay, and on the cover
Speaker 1: of that magazine, was it like on the white tail
Speaker 1: rut the right way and they would write the hyphen no,
Speaker 1: well sometimes, but here here's the deal where it gets
Speaker 1: all mixed up. There's there's no um, it's not the thou.
Speaker 1: There's no kind of question about what the official name is.
Speaker 1: I mean, official name of that deer is white hyphen
Speaker 1: tailed with an E D deer. I mean that's the
Speaker 1: name of that animal. No changing it. Well, there's no
Speaker 1: changing it. But but we always we shorten it and
Speaker 1: we say white tail white tails. That's fine. But when
Speaker 1: you say white tail deer, now you've just taken the
Speaker 1: two acceptable forms of that word and you smash them together.
Speaker 1: It's not even grammatically correct white tail deer. You gotta
Speaker 1: put the e d like when you trivia a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks ago, and you wrote Ivory build woodpecker. You
Speaker 1: hope you didn't have a hyphen a E D on that.
Speaker 1: Did you write? Ivy bill, Ivory bill woodpecker, I rebuild,
Speaker 1: And if you look at the names of the top
Speaker 1: of my bills, I'll tell you some something that stuff
Speaker 1: that book about that go on. But but durkincent a
Speaker 1: list of animals that have like a hyphen E D.
Speaker 1: And it's pretty rare to find any animal that is
Speaker 1: just smashed together and doesn't have the hyphen the E D.
Speaker 1: So the correct word, the correct name of that animal
Speaker 1: is white hyphen tailed deer. But nobody wants to run
Speaker 1: around saying white tailed deer, white tailed deer. And even
Speaker 1: when I write all the time, I mix it up
Speaker 1: with white tails, white tail, white tailed deer with an
Speaker 1: E D, and the hyphen would not correct. Is when
Speaker 1: you hybridize those and you say white tail and then
Speaker 1: you add dear to the end of it. White tailed deer,
Speaker 1: white tail deer, that's not correct. That's just someone hybrid
Speaker 1: of the two acceptable forms of it. So you say
Speaker 1: white tails, We're gonna hut white tails. Look at that
Speaker 1: white tail these are white tailed deer in a little
Speaker 1: more formal setting. But you don't say white tail and
Speaker 1: then add deer to the end of it. Do you say?
Speaker 1: Mooses means? Oh? Chris got a note here when I
Speaker 1: was when we were I passed along to were in
Speaker 1: Alaska hunting moves my inn reach. I passed along to Kylie.
Speaker 1: I sent Carl a note that said, tell Karin that
Speaker 1: I had a dream that you fell from the sky
Speaker 1: and landed in my mom's yard with a compound fracture
Speaker 1: in her left femur. You came out of the sky,
Speaker 1: hit a tree branch, and land in the yard of
Speaker 1: the compound fraction left fem I wonder what that means.
Speaker 1: And then weirdly, we then had to go do something
Speaker 1: or another, and I was very distracted by the bone
Speaker 1: sticking out of her thigh, and you're very nonplused. That's
Speaker 1: does that mean I'm tough? I just found that hilarious,
Speaker 1: because that's that's what Steve sometimes uses in Reach for
Speaker 1: it to communicate right across your you just came out
Speaker 1: of nowhere, bamn, right into the ground in your mom's yard,
Speaker 1: my mom's yard, So watch your ass. I think we
Speaker 1: need to. This is actually a Savannah's idea that there'll
Speaker 1: be some kind of coffee table book or calendar something
Speaker 1: with a compilation of all your random in reach message
Speaker 1: and reach messages would be hilarious. Um, maybe that'll be now.
Speaker 1: It would be like the next calendar message. Your books
Speaker 1: back in print, Jim, Yeah, Deer of the Southwest, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: publish that. And that's desert meal deer Cow's whitetailed Deer
Speaker 1: in the Southwest der folks interpret. Yeah, so it's been
Speaker 1: out of print. Actually the first time I was on
Speaker 1: the podcast here, I don't know how many copies were left,
Speaker 1: but shortly after that it just it was on the
Speaker 1: out of print. Um did it get to? Where is
Speaker 1: it so out of print that people sell them for
Speaker 1: stupid amounts of money and no one wants to buy it.
Speaker 1: I've got some screenshots of eight hundred dollars. Is the
Speaker 1: rare books? Yeah? They have good books, you know, because
Speaker 1: it would be like someone well, yeah, because you'll see
Speaker 1: it where there's an out of print book and the
Speaker 1: like a slight spike in demand, and then there's some
Speaker 1: guys like I don't know, maybe someone needs it for
Speaker 1: like some thing, and then all of a sudden it
Speaker 1: shoots up and they're selling. And then and then you
Speaker 1: go back the next day as someone made some more
Speaker 1: and they're back to normal. But it's always like a
Speaker 1: last gasp, like I don't know, you never know, maybe
Speaker 1: someone will give me a hairbox for this book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I I shortly after I was on the podcast
Speaker 1: the first time, I went and ordered some because I
Speaker 1: sell some of my website deernut dot com. They haven't
Speaker 1: banned that web, they have not banned that, and and
Speaker 1: I had orders, I had standing orders, and so I
Speaker 1: called the publisher to get some more and they said, well,
Speaker 1: we're waiting for what we're out and and we're waiting
Speaker 1: for more. And I said, were you waiting for more
Speaker 1: books from? Because they're the publisher, they're the ones that
Speaker 1: have the store of the warehouse of them. And it
Speaker 1: turns out it was out of print. And so that
Speaker 1: was right when COVID started. And there's COVID and there's
Speaker 1: some revolution in UM, changes in the personnel and Texas
Speaker 1: A and M University Press. So it drug out for
Speaker 1: three years, but just about two months ago it became
Speaker 1: available and it's it's available everywhere. Awesome do you get
Speaker 1: a your money off that a little bit? Yeah? I think, Um,
Speaker 1: the first run, I think I calculated I got sixty
Speaker 1: two cents in royalties for the for the book at
Speaker 1: that time, sixty two copy. You know, you know what,
Speaker 1: that's actually not that insane. It's not that Yeah. People
Speaker 1: don't realize that. They think if you sell a book,
Speaker 1: you know, the author probably gets or so, but get
Speaker 1: the tiny fraction. No, if you buy a paper back
Speaker 1: and author might get a dollar. Yeah. Oh you know
Speaker 1: what I was gonna mention about your thinking your account
Speaker 1: getting suspended if you're reading, Um, it could be from
Speaker 1: the it could be high up. Because I was reading
Speaker 1: in the I can't hear if it was reported in
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal or the Times. I think it
Speaker 1: was reported in the Journal that the the Biden administration
Speaker 1: was actually had had a list of people that they
Speaker 1: felt like people they felt were disseminating COVID disinformation, and
Speaker 1: the administration themselves were working with social media platforms on
Speaker 1: a hit list and even pointing out if they'd like
Speaker 1: cancel from one, they'd be like, oh, yeah, but he's
Speaker 1: still on this, so it could come from associated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing about that Instagram account, the
Speaker 1: original one. I'd never talked politics, I never talked controversy.
Speaker 1: You know, that was my place for just really fun
Speaker 1: interesting deer stuff, you know, sometimes dad jokes, sometimes funny stuff.
Speaker 1: It was really benign, really vanilla and and interesting. So
Speaker 1: it's not like there was anything you never said. You know,
Speaker 1: if you want to cure COVID, get a copper is
Speaker 1: it brass or copper? You gotta get a copper rod
Speaker 1: a copper Dowell and swirl each Nostril never said that's
Speaker 1: a dirt told us no, I don't think I said
Speaker 1: the word COVID on my account. Um, I suppressing. Why
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about John Coulter, John Johnson
Speaker 1: trivia for you? Well, who's this buddy that? Yeah, who's
Speaker 1: this buddy that got chopped all the pieces? Not far
Speaker 1: from here? You know they smeared those pieces on John Colter. Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know that story, Potts. They were Lewis and
Speaker 1: Clark alum, huh, I don't know that. But culture was
Speaker 1: one of the lews and Clark expedition. He shot a
Speaker 1: mule deer um and that mulder ended up when it
Speaker 1: was described in the journals of the of the expedition
Speaker 1: that end up to be the original description that found
Speaker 1: its way in the scientific literature. For the very first
Speaker 1: description of of mule deer in the West. There's a
Speaker 1: French guy named Rafinesque who named a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: of animals, gave them scientific names, and he published in
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventeen, he published the first account of mulder
Speaker 1: and he based that on the the journals of Charles
Speaker 1: Lay and Charles Ray. Journal is famous. A lot of
Speaker 1: people have have published and talked about how Charles Ray
Speaker 1: was the first one to describe mule deer. I've written
Speaker 1: about it several times. Turned out I was full of
Speaker 1: ship that time too, because the Charles Loray journal is
Speaker 1: a complete fraud. Charles Larray never existed, um and I
Speaker 1: read about this at some point in time. And so
Speaker 1: that Charles Lay journal they've traced actually Patrick Gass from
Speaker 1: he was he was on the leuc and Clark expedition.
Speaker 1: So the journal kept by Patrick Gass, you know, they
Speaker 1: all kept different journals. Patrick Gass describes a mule there
Speaker 1: that turned out to be the first description of mule there.
Speaker 1: It was it was incorrectly folded into this fraudulent, completely
Speaker 1: fraudulent and fabricated journal of charge Charles Ray and then
Speaker 1: Charles Lay's journal was used to describe mulder by this
Speaker 1: rafinesque guy into the scientific literature, and they trace that back.
Speaker 1: It turns out this mule er that John Coulter shot
Speaker 1: and was was described in Patrick Gass's journal and published,
Speaker 1: was actually the first description of mule here where they
Speaker 1: started talking about it. Now, what like, what makes it
Speaker 1: the first description? We were we recently had a Coronado Uh,
Speaker 1: we recently had a Coronado expert on the show. And
Speaker 1: no doubt, I haven't read everything from everybody on the
Speaker 1: Coronado expedition, but they no one on the Coronado expedition
Speaker 1: was like, oh and there's a deer. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: They weren't writing things like that, whereas losing Clark, I mean,
Speaker 1: that was their purpose to go document all the natural things.
Speaker 1: And so um, what little written word that exists from
Speaker 1: the Coronado expedition, I don't even know what that is,
Speaker 1: but I know there is some they weren't. They weren't
Speaker 1: talking about types of deer, and and even if they
Speaker 1: said dear, it would it wasn't a description of this Arizona.
Speaker 1: They both live in Tucsas. You need to go listen
Speaker 1: to the You need to go listen to the finding
Speaker 1: that just found the oldest gun in America in your state. Right,
Speaker 1: I heard that whole podcast. Yeah it was good. What
Speaker 1: do you do? Who Cornado is? Never paid any attention
Speaker 1: to it? Well, you just listen to the podcast I did,
Speaker 1: so you know, Now what was the question? What you
Speaker 1: just said? I don't know anything about Coronado. Just listened
Speaker 1: to about it, right, you said, other than the podcast? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just not a topic that I've duve
Speaker 1: into and and read about at all. Um So, either
Speaker 1: or they never, like like Lewis and Clark's account counts
Speaker 1: as because they said it's yeah big, it's got this,
Speaker 1: it's got this, it's got this. That counts as a
Speaker 1: scientific explanation. Yes, it's a scientist has to take that
Speaker 1: and then describe it into scientific journal and but they
Speaker 1: have to base it on something that's uh, you know,
Speaker 1: earlier journal. That what makes it the first description is
Speaker 1: how accurate it was. It talks about the rope like
Speaker 1: tale with a black tip. It talks about the fact
Speaker 1: that they jump and they hop like goats, um, talks
Speaker 1: about these long ears, talks about having more of a
Speaker 1: grayer coat, and so all of those descriptions make it
Speaker 1: um no question that they're talking about a mulder. And
Speaker 1: that was the first time someone described it accurate. The
Speaker 1: first white tale that was described was like one in Virginia,
Speaker 1: actually with North Carolina, but everything on the East coast
Speaker 1: was considered Virginia at that time. And it's funny because
Speaker 1: they were Europeans, Europeans trying to describe these white tailed
Speaker 1: deer which they hadn't seen before. And one of the
Speaker 1: main parts of the description as they said that thelers
Speaker 1: are backwards. And so if you think about a European
Speaker 1: the road deer, they're going backwards. The red deer, they're
Speaker 1: going backwards. And they came to North America and these
Speaker 1: antlers are going forward. So they said their antlers are backward.
Speaker 1: You know. They they never saw a deer where the
Speaker 1: antlers swept forward. Everything was back. So that was one
Speaker 1: of the descriptions of the head backwards antlers. Who was
Speaker 1: it that wrote that description, Um, oh, it was eighteen
Speaker 1: fifty one and it was I can't come up with it, yeah, right, right, right,
Speaker 1: fifty one at the time. So what's your new deer
Speaker 1: book then, Yeah, so we've been working, me and a
Speaker 1: lot of people throughout the West, been working on a
Speaker 1: big what will be the Bible of Mulder and blacktailed
Speaker 1: deer in in North America. About forty one years ago
Speaker 1: Charles Walmo put together a book called Milder and Blacktailed
Speaker 1: Deer in North America UM with different people writing different chapters,
Speaker 1: and that thing is is still used as a reference
Speaker 1: for Melder information, but it's four decades old. And so
Speaker 1: as a chair of the Melder Working Group, I'm in
Speaker 1: touch with all of the West leading Melder people. And
Speaker 1: so about four years ago we we embarked on a
Speaker 1: a new book to create another Milder and Blacktail Deer
Speaker 1: that was updated with all the latest information. So that
Speaker 1: is that the publisher. Now it's it's in layout. That's
Speaker 1: it's gonna be about five fifty pages, a hundred color photographs,
Speaker 1: chapters eighty author's five fifty pages, a hundred color photos. Yeah,
Speaker 1: published by CRCs. So there's some some mediator podcasts alone
Speaker 1: here because Matt Kaufman did the Migration lad the Migration chapter,
Speaker 1: Kevin Monteth who's been on the show led the nutrition chapter.
Speaker 1: At our Nett who's been on the show, led a
Speaker 1: habitat chapter. So that the cool thing is there's twenty
Speaker 1: three chapters and each chapter was written by the international
Speaker 1: leader of the national leader for that topic, I mean,
Speaker 1: the expert for the topics. So this is a compendium
Speaker 1: of all of the latest information written by the people
Speaker 1: that are on black tails and black tailed melder In
Speaker 1: fact seven chapter did you lead up there? Did you not?
Speaker 1: Because you're doing that overall editing. I was the lead editor,
Speaker 1: me and Paul Krautsman, who used to be a professor
Speaker 1: at University Arizona was later a professor University of Montana
Speaker 1: before retiring, and and I've known him for a long time,
Speaker 1: so he and I teamed up. So I'm the lead
Speaker 1: editor UM and then I wrote UM a good part
Speaker 1: of chapter one, which is historical distribution taxonomy UM, where
Speaker 1: we take the eleven meld deer subspecies and distill them
Speaker 1: down to only five valid subspecies. So we pulled that
Speaker 1: down at. Emily Latch was my co author. She's a
Speaker 1: geneticist that I've been working with with decades UM doing
Speaker 1: dear genetics, but we've got the Tiberonne Island melder, which
Speaker 1: is a Mexican island melder, got the Cedros Island meld deer.
Speaker 1: Those islands have been separated for ten thousand years, and
Speaker 1: they're genetically and they're physically different. And then we've got
Speaker 1: Sitka black tail and Clumbian black tail as different subspecies.
Speaker 1: And then the fifth meal deer so species is continental meal.
Speaker 1: Here everything in North America is the same subspecies because
Speaker 1: there's no geographic divider between. There's no genetic differences that
Speaker 1: you can really define. Physical differences that their tails change
Speaker 1: as you go in different areas, but there's no physical
Speaker 1: differences that you could really say these are different deer,
Speaker 1: the different subspecies. What is up with why are Sitka
Speaker 1: black tails seemingly so different in appearance then Colombia black tail.
Speaker 1: They seem to have like a little white tailed deer
Speaker 1: or sorry, a little white tailed deer. They look like
Speaker 1: white tails laid up in them. Yeah, that's fascinating, and
Speaker 1: there's white tailed. You can just taste the hyphen in there. White.
Speaker 1: But to the Sitka, they've got these white tailed like tails.
Speaker 1: They've got shorter metatarsal glands on their back. Legs closer
Speaker 1: to um white tails, and they've got darker faces like
Speaker 1: a white tail, which which makes it appear like they
Speaker 1: have white eye rings um like a white tail, short,
Speaker 1: smaller antlers. It's fascinating. I don't have an answer why
Speaker 1: they look like white tails. They're not not because of hybridization.
Speaker 1: I thought I remembered reading in uh, what's the old
Speaker 1: timer's name? Canadian valerious Guys that I could be wrong,
Speaker 1: but I thought there was a theory that when the
Speaker 1: ice was moving south, the white tails kind of like
Speaker 1: work the edge of that ice south across the you
Speaker 1: know what would be the lower forty eight up the
Speaker 1: west coast, and somehow yeah, those like yeah, not quite,
Speaker 1: they weren't coming along the coast. But what he talked
Speaker 1: about was we had white tails already in the east.
Speaker 1: White Orticolius, the white tailed mulder genus has been in
Speaker 1: North America for five million years. We've got fossils in
Speaker 1: Florida five million years ago. So what he was saying,
Speaker 1: my bookshelf, Yeah, that's right, gave me we had white
Speaker 1: tails in the east, and then we had this differentiated
Speaker 1: into kind of a western mule deer, black tailed deer, thing,
Speaker 1: and then later glacial um glacial action separated the black
Speaker 1: tails along the coast and then the mule deer in
Speaker 1: the central part Geiss's theory about um like they met somewhere.
Speaker 1: Geis The theory was that black tail males interbred with
Speaker 1: white tailed fieldmales and created the mule there in my
Speaker 1: chapter one. I discussed that a long time, and I
Speaker 1: don't think it's valid be there's a lot of reason,
Speaker 1: Like he had this kind of elaborate I can't what
Speaker 1: do you call that? When you as a scientist, what
Speaker 1: do you call what? He would do a theory monger.
Speaker 1: He's a vow as a friend of mine, lifelong friend, um.
Speaker 1: But he would kind of throw out some stuff and
Speaker 1: he'd be like, well, how like okay, show me you're
Speaker 1: you know, I want to help my kids with their homework,
Speaker 1: you know, and you kind of like show me your word.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, They're like, what's that? Wasn't necessarily bad thing?
Speaker 1: So it's like show me the work. His thing was
Speaker 1: that you had did that. It went like this, you
Speaker 1: had white tails and what's now the southeastern US million
Speaker 1: three million years ago, four million years ago, at some
Speaker 1: point in time, climatic conditions were such that they colonized
Speaker 1: America coast to coast, and then in the southern portion, Yeah,
Speaker 1: from from they made it. And then it got real
Speaker 1: hot and dry in the middle, and so there became
Speaker 1: a gap between the two, and then they had all
Speaker 1: this separate time to evolve. And then it got real
Speaker 1: nice weather again, and the white tails came back west.
Speaker 1: These abandoned black tails came east. They had sex along
Speaker 1: the rockies. And yeah, then there's the milder. Was he
Speaker 1: the one? Was he the one that said they muled
Speaker 1: there been around for ten thousand years, and I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be surprised if they're gone in ten Yeah. He wrote
Speaker 1: an article I think in Outdoor Life that talked about
Speaker 1: the melder disappearing. Um, and he says that they are
Speaker 1: a new species that arose in the place the scene,
Speaker 1: and um. We spent a lot of time in that
Speaker 1: chapter one because this information has been out there so
Speaker 1: much and I haven't always agreed with it, and I did.
Speaker 1: I sent Val the draft of my chapter to review.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately didn't get to it before he died. He was
Speaker 1: actually because I wanted his input on it, because I
Speaker 1: was disagreeing with a lot of things. But we've been
Speaker 1: friends a long time, and that's what scientists do. It's
Speaker 1: okay to disagree. Unfortunately, I would have really liked to
Speaker 1: have his comment. But with Vale's theories, the thing is
Speaker 1: it's it's not necessarily a bad thing. He was a
Speaker 1: thinker man. He thought outside the box all the time,
Speaker 1: and he was throwing these theories out. In a lot
Speaker 1: of cases, he threw a theory out without showing his
Speaker 1: work just I think this is what happened, and people
Speaker 1: followed up and did a master's a PhD on it
Speaker 1: and either proved it right or proved it wrong. And
Speaker 1: I remember him telling me one time that that someone
Speaker 1: had done this work and they proved that one of
Speaker 1: his theories was wrong, and he called it splendid work.
Speaker 1: It was fantastic. Now we know he said that was
Speaker 1: a theory of mine. Someone did a great job of
Speaker 1: investigating it found out I was wrong, and he was
Speaker 1: excited that someone we actually had that information. He was
Speaker 1: that kind of gearing. So he threw a lot of
Speaker 1: theories out, and some of those theories really helped people
Speaker 1: think about these Some of these concepts and um in
Speaker 1: relationships and someone were just just batch it crazy. That
Speaker 1: picture that Muley back on the cover makes you want
Speaker 1: to get that buck so bad. That's the Kia buck. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as George and Ranco took that photo on the Kaibab,
Speaker 1: so that it says here the last book like that
Speaker 1: was published like this was forty one years ago. There's
Speaker 1: a lot like with mule deer, especially like lots changed
Speaker 1: for them, and and and blacktail deer and and actually
Speaker 1: um Steve's brother Danny reviewed the chapter on blacktail deer
Speaker 1: to one of the seven of the chapters. Of those
Speaker 1: twenty three chapters are are a separate chapter on each
Speaker 1: of these seven eco regions in North America. So we
Speaker 1: divided the Coastal Rainforest as one ecoregion, the Great Plains
Speaker 1: is one ecoregion, um, the California Chaparral is one eco region,
Speaker 1: the the Colorado Plateau, and the South with the desert.
Speaker 1: And so we have a chapter on each one of
Speaker 1: those ecoregions written by those experts that that manage and
Speaker 1: survey and hunt deer in in those areas, that have
Speaker 1: been researching and managing the deer in those areas. So
Speaker 1: so there's even these seven chapters just focusing on ecoregions. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's one on the coastal rainforest with the black
Speaker 1: tail deer there. So um, it's pretty excited. It's pretty exciting.
Speaker 1: How are you, um, pessimistic about the future of mule deer, No,
Speaker 1: not at all, not all. I think we just need
Speaker 1: to focus on habitat and if we preserved some the
Speaker 1: open places for them to live, um, they'll they'll be fine.
Speaker 1: And I've written about the future of mule deer and um,
Speaker 1: people love mual there too much. We're not gonna you know,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna let anything bad happen. How important is
Speaker 1: predator control of mule deer in your view? Not not
Speaker 1: very important. Locally you can do something, but um, you
Speaker 1: know the idea that we're gonna kill some predators and
Speaker 1: it's just gonna air quotes help the deer out. Um.
Speaker 1: You have to really intensively control predators in a fairly
Speaker 1: localized area to to actually increase survival, either increased survival
Speaker 1: of fauns or increased survival of adults. And you can
Speaker 1: do it in a small area, but you can't do
Speaker 1: it even on a game management unit size area. It
Speaker 1: would take so much money and so much effort to
Speaker 1: depress the predator population so much that you actually relax
Speaker 1: the predation pressure and improve survival um of of deer.
Speaker 1: And it's so expensive to do it in one game
Speaker 1: management unit. I mean it my view, you you spend
Speaker 1: those millions of dollars doing some long lasting habitat work
Speaker 1: or some overpasses to preserve some migration corridors or something.
Speaker 1: So it's really it can it can be beneficial in
Speaker 1: a local area, um, but you're not gonna be able
Speaker 1: to do it on a large scale area just as
Speaker 1: a matter of deer management. So when we as hunters
Speaker 1: are like walk around touting around on Instagram, Hey everybody
Speaker 1: do your part, and someone kills a wolf for a
Speaker 1: mountain lion, Yeah, it's not doing anything from a population standpoint,
Speaker 1: And people say, you know, we killed this line and
Speaker 1: so we did the deer population the favor. Not really,
Speaker 1: I mean you're just not having that much. Matter of fact,
Speaker 1: did you follow their lions come in there? Did you
Speaker 1: follow that predator predator program that they were doing in
Speaker 1: Colorado on the Rhan Plateau that did not That was
Speaker 1: but that was like extremely specific in time and intensity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what talk yeah, And it wasn't just like
Speaker 1: doing it in January, so it was like focus on
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, And they did a long a long
Speaker 1: term study Mark Early, and now there was a Mark
Speaker 1: Early's the lead author on our predator chapter UM in
Speaker 1: the book. He did a long term study in Idaho
Speaker 1: where they controlled coyotes and lions in certain game management
Speaker 1: units UM and and in the end in a focused
Speaker 1: area kyote control and focused there you can can save
Speaker 1: enough fall. And if you've got habitat, it's tied very
Speaker 1: closely with habitat. In fact, my next article in the
Speaker 1: Meelder Foundation magazine is on on Predators UM, and we
Speaker 1: talked about how closely that's tied with the quality habitat,
Speaker 1: because if you go in and you kill a bunch
Speaker 1: of predators, you save a bunch of fawns. You absolutely
Speaker 1: save a bunch of fawns in that area. If the
Speaker 1: deer population is overcarring capacity, they're gonna die from something else,
Speaker 1: some other causes. So the habitat has to be such
Speaker 1: that it can hold a lot more dear so when
Speaker 1: you save them from the jaws of predators, then then
Speaker 1: they actually have a place to live and they've been
Speaker 1: up food. So it's very closely tied with habitat quality
Speaker 1: and caring. I hear every now and then speaking to
Speaker 1: habitat people are like, well, I see deer all the
Speaker 1: time in my little suburb neighborhood. Um, they seem to
Speaker 1: be just fine. They're adapting there in the they just
Speaker 1: live in the yards. Everything's fine. You don't need to
Speaker 1: preserve wide open habitat. With my sister. My sister keeps
Speaker 1: sending me videos of the two Melder books right outside
Speaker 1: her window, and they lay in her front lawn in
Speaker 1: the shade, and they eat out of the bird feeder. Um,
Speaker 1: and they grow out and they graze in the in
Speaker 1: the yard. So that's one little snapshot of their year
Speaker 1: round habitat needs. And so you know they need they
Speaker 1: need to winter range free from snow and with some
Speaker 1: four during the winter. Um. They need some really good
Speaker 1: nutritious summer range. And and then they might wance in
Speaker 1: a whilcome into a neighborhood and eat a little bit
Speaker 1: and hang out. But that that's not providing the habit
Speaker 1: their habitat needs for the whole year or even really
Speaker 1: that month. It's just a it's just a stop at
Speaker 1: dairy Queen as all it is. We had a text message.
Speaker 1: Who found this text message? Oh that was that someone
Speaker 1: sent that to me. Instagram thing and Instagram messes of
Speaker 1: Brody they're called d M. Yeah. I'm in an argument
Speaker 1: this from someone who says the broidy this read it Brody.
Speaker 1: I'm in an argument with a friend who is claiming
Speaker 1: that of game animals and anyway are tagged with trackers. Well,
Speaker 1: I know this number is unbelievably wrong. I'm having a
Speaker 1: hard time finding numbers for tracked game animal any insight
Speaker 1: that I just replied, like, there's twenty five million deer
Speaker 1: and states do the math. But but yeah, I I mean,
Speaker 1: you probably know better than anyone. But I would guess
Speaker 1: it's way less than one percent. Helicopter level it is.
Speaker 1: Utah has more radio collared ungulus than any other state
Speaker 1: right now. They're putting out like five GPS colors a
Speaker 1: year as part of their herd monitoring their statewide and
Speaker 1: it's really an incredible effort. They after no one's even
Speaker 1: close their survival rates, um cause specific mortality, what's killing them?
Speaker 1: And then overall how are they surviving? And movements, migration
Speaker 1: patterns and movements and habitat use um. They're they're getting
Speaker 1: some fantastic information, for example, talking about predators. They have
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of units that from all of those
Speaker 1: radio colors, they know that those animals are limited by
Speaker 1: habitat because they're taking fat levels and nutrition information and
Speaker 1: they're they're malnourished. That you know, they know these animals
Speaker 1: are limited by habitat. They've got another unit. The animals
Speaker 1: are fat, they're doing really well, they've got really good nutrition,
Speaker 1: and still the adult female survival is really low, and
Speaker 1: most of them are getting killed by mountain lions. So
Speaker 1: here they actually have the information where all these populations
Speaker 1: are limited by habitat and predator control is not gonna
Speaker 1: help anything. In this unit right here, they're doing really
Speaker 1: well habitat and nutrition wise, and predators are killing snot
Speaker 1: a out of them. And so if you have that
Speaker 1: kind of information, you can go to that game management
Speaker 1: unit then and and up the mountain lion quota let
Speaker 1: people kill twice as many mountain lions in that area
Speaker 1: and try to get that dear population to recover. So
Speaker 1: that's the benefit of that kind of information. But they
Speaker 1: have about twelve they have about twelve hundred meal deer
Speaker 1: right now, radio collared with GPS colors in the state
Speaker 1: of Utah. Their populations about three hundred thousand meal deer.
Speaker 1: That's less than half a one percent of of the
Speaker 1: of the population color. So it sounds like someone's frustrated
Speaker 1: they saw a big buck with the collar, yeah, or
Speaker 1: they're worried about the black helicopters finding them when they're
Speaker 1: poaching something. I don't know. I thought that all aren't
Speaker 1: all birds now tracking us? Or drones or something? What
Speaker 1: was that? What was that hashtag that was going around? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I posted that on my old Instagram account. It was
Speaker 1: a poster that said birds are drones. Wake up, the
Speaker 1: government's watching us. Birds aren't real. It said birds aren't real,
Speaker 1: and I think they're the website. I think there's a
Speaker 1: big movement in a website that's called birds Aren't Real.
Speaker 1: What'd you know that? The first spend a waging with
Speaker 1: time on conspiracy ship. But did you know that, um
Speaker 1: like the whole flat the earth flat? Things started ke
Speaker 1: It was like a guy just made a guy was
Speaker 1: like making a point and it started out as a joke,
Speaker 1: but it caught on. I didn't know that like the
Speaker 1: flat earth folks, the new kind of flat earth folks.
Speaker 1: It started out as a dude like goofing on people
Speaker 1: like that, but then his goof caught on and he
Speaker 1: created a movement. Yeah, Like there's a great YouTube video
Speaker 1: about how Steve you wonder wasn't blind would be like, uh,
Speaker 1: it would be like that. But also it becomes like
Speaker 1: a big movement. You know, they say that the earth
Speaker 1: can't be flatter. Cats would have pushed everything off it
Speaker 1: by now. The I want to talk about the word
Speaker 1: of the day, antler genesis, and I'm looking at a
Speaker 1: thing that describes antler growth more closely resembles bone cancer
Speaker 1: growth than regular bone growth. Right yeah, antler growth, I
Speaker 1: mean that's the growth of bone. It's a growth of nerves.
Speaker 1: You think about when you injure a nerve, how how
Speaker 1: long it takes to heal that nerve. Here we have
Speaker 1: antlers that are growing in the course of a couple
Speaker 1: of months, and these bones are growing a couple of feet.
Speaker 1: Nerves are growing a couple of feet. That skins growing
Speaker 1: so fast, so that bone growth, which you can be
Speaker 1: up to an inch a day in some species, think
Speaker 1: about that an inch a day. That's that's incredible. And
Speaker 1: so the bone growth is so fast. Antler growth of
Speaker 1: that bone material is actually more rapid than than bone
Speaker 1: cancer growth. And so there's people doing research with with
Speaker 1: the deer family. To be able to grow bone that
Speaker 1: fast and then to shut it down and then to
Speaker 1: have it stop and then then shed the velvet and
Speaker 1: and calcify that bone, they've got to have some physiological
Speaker 1: or chemical mechanism to stop that runaway bone growth of
Speaker 1: the antlers. They've got to have some regulation of this
Speaker 1: bone growth. So people are studying that um in relation
Speaker 1: to to bone cancer and saying, well, if they're able
Speaker 1: to shut down that that crazy bone growth, maybe we
Speaker 1: can tap into that and find a way to shut
Speaker 1: down cancerous bone growth um and regulate it in that way.
Speaker 1: And so when you look at captive deer, they've surveyed
Speaker 1: people that have deer in captivity about how many died
Speaker 1: of can how many deer head cancer because they're in
Speaker 1: captivity and they get sick, they take them in and
Speaker 1: they check them out, and the deer family seems to
Speaker 1: be five times less likely to get cancer. So it
Speaker 1: seems like they've got some kind of mechanism to control
Speaker 1: this tumor growth or bone growth. UM. So that that
Speaker 1: that's pretty exciting if that can be tapped into and
Speaker 1: and um, maybe we could do something with cancer growth, regulating, slowing,
Speaker 1: stopping the growth of cancer cells. Do you know when uh,
Speaker 1: I'll see about it. There days we're watching some uh
Speaker 1: we're watching moose thrashing a lot of brush. We're seeing
Speaker 1: a lot of bulls that got little bits of velvet
Speaker 1: dry it on their antlers. Yet, um, if a buck
Speaker 1: or a bowl or whatever never thrashed brush would all
Speaker 1: that velvet to stick there, now it would come out.
Speaker 1: It loosens from that antler. And you see pictures sometimes
Speaker 1: of of antler's big milder or an elk and it's
Speaker 1: falling off. It's starting to slough off of that. And
Speaker 1: even because you know they haven't been thrashing at brush,
Speaker 1: because it's so loose, it would just it would have
Speaker 1: been gone. But you can see it just loosen and
Speaker 1: and start falling off. What about cactus bucks? Why are
Speaker 1: they holding? Why fall That's a hormonal issue. And there's
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different things that you thought Seth
Speaker 1: just new hearts man. I thought I thought Seth maybe
Speaker 1: stumped him. He's like, well, yeah, what about like Kelson's
Speaker 1: shot a few years ago that was and that it
Speaker 1: was all intact, like not even trying. I think I
Speaker 1: sent you the article. I wrote an article in Melder
Speaker 1: Foundation magazine, Cactus Books, and and it's a it's a
Speaker 1: hormonal issue, but it's really complicated. So people are frustrated
Speaker 1: when they say, why is that buck seal van or
Speaker 1: what's causing that? And there's there's a thing called the
Speaker 1: crypt orchid buck, which is a buck that has his
Speaker 1: testes descend um into the scrow them, but they stay
Speaker 1: like the size of a p They're just they're they're
Speaker 1: just super small. Um, those are hype. I'm sorry. Those
Speaker 1: are hypogonado bucks. Hypogonado just means really small, really small
Speaker 1: gonads in the in the scrowed them. But then the
Speaker 1: um the crypt orchid bucks don't have their tests descend
Speaker 1: into the scrow them. They stay in the body cavity,
Speaker 1: usually encased in fat there and and those conditions can
Speaker 1: cause disruptions on the testosterone that that animal gets because
Speaker 1: the shed velvet you need that peak and testosterone as
Speaker 1: you lead up to the rut, and so it's that
Speaker 1: surgeon testosterone that dries a velvet and it strips it off.
Speaker 1: And so if the tests are still in the abdominal cavity,
Speaker 1: or if they're too small and not producing testosterone, you
Speaker 1: just lack that that tystosterone to shed that. But it
Speaker 1: can be more complicated than that, because you can have
Speaker 1: antler does which are invalvet and people call cactus bucks,
Speaker 1: and they're actually does that have had a tumor around
Speaker 1: the ovary which disrupted destrogen production, um or other things
Speaker 1: in the in the hypothalamous gland which can disrupt the
Speaker 1: production and distribution of of hormones. There's also been cases
Speaker 1: where animals, because sometimes you get like if you have
Speaker 1: an individual animal, you've got some individual malformation, some individual
Speaker 1: problem with that animal. Sometimes you get a population where
Speaker 1: like half of the bucks are still in velvet in November. Now,
Speaker 1: something's going on um in that population and and nobody's
Speaker 1: been able to nail that down. The leading theory is
Speaker 1: that some plants produce phytoestrogens, like plant based estrogens, and
Speaker 1: into the certain in a certain uh season, you might
Speaker 1: have a certain rainfall pattern or temperature pattern, which makes
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of those plants just flourish, and the
Speaker 1: deer eating a lot of them and they're just eating
Speaker 1: a lot of estrogen is disrupting the flow of testosterone
Speaker 1: in there, and so all of those different things can happen.
Speaker 1: And unless you get an animal in you get a
Speaker 1: blood sample to look at testosterone levels. Um, you're able
Speaker 1: to look at the testes, the condition of the testes,
Speaker 1: and look at the the antlers. There's also the receptors.
Speaker 1: The testosterone receptors in velvet might malfunction and they might
Speaker 1: have a lot of testosterone, but the velvet receptors aren't
Speaker 1: detecting it. So there's a whole bunch of really complex
Speaker 1: things and you can't really get to the bottom of
Speaker 1: it without a really intensive necropsy with a physiologist and
Speaker 1: a chemist. And what do you see antler does that
Speaker 1: are viable? Yes, yeah, there's The last white Tail book
Speaker 1: actually had a picture of an antler dough with a
Speaker 1: fallen sucklinger. So they can reproduce, and it depends what
Speaker 1: causes that injury to the injury to the skull on
Speaker 1: a dough might actually um cause an antler growth to form.
Speaker 1: They've done that experimentally. What about like surviving like e
Speaker 1: h D. I've heard that being a thing that causes Yeah,
Speaker 1: not not antler does, but yeah, that's definitely thing. Um.
Speaker 1: There's a veterinarian Dr Fox from I Believe Utah wrote
Speaker 1: a really good paper about um a case of e
Speaker 1: h D and and e h D is episode of
Speaker 1: hemorrhagic disease and it causes its hemorrhaging and it will
Speaker 1: cause hemorrhaging in the body and the nose and the
Speaker 1: eyes and anus and everything, but also can cause hemorrhaging
Speaker 1: in the test testicles. And so if it's hemorrhaging and swollen,
Speaker 1: it interferes with that production of testosterone and then it
Speaker 1: interferes with the antler cycle. So they her team of
Speaker 1: Wildlife that's documented this case of e h D in
Speaker 1: the population causing a whole bunch of cactus bucks from
Speaker 1: disrupting that hormonal isn't a sign of that like the
Speaker 1: the hooves slough off. Yeah, one sign of episode out
Speaker 1: of cameragic disease is lines or cracks in the hooves
Speaker 1: and and it runs it's not lengthwise from the tip
Speaker 1: to the fur, but it's across the hoof and it's
Speaker 1: what it is is a stress line. It's when they
Speaker 1: get sick. At the time they get sick because those
Speaker 1: hooves are constantly growing like fingernails, So at the time
Speaker 1: that they get sick, that stops growing because they're really sick.
Speaker 1: Just like a big horn cheap get those annual rings
Speaker 1: every year during rut because that horn cheet stops growing
Speaker 1: and then when it starts growing again, it leaves that
Speaker 1: stress line there. And it's the same thing with the
Speaker 1: h D hooves, and there'll be a stress line. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think with Kelsey's buck, remember right, the hooves were
Speaker 1: basically it looked like they were falling off on that one,
Speaker 1: and then that week we saw probably half a dozen
Speaker 1: different bucks in velmot Still. Yeah, so when you've got
Speaker 1: especially when you have evidence like on the hooves like that,
Speaker 1: or if you've had some animals die earlier in the
Speaker 1: fall from h D, you know, then it's indication. It's
Speaker 1: not something like the phyto estrogens I was talking about. Yeah, Hey,
Speaker 1: why do people use a little follow up on that too?
Speaker 1: Just um, but does any any of that what causes
Speaker 1: a buck to be a shirgar buck? Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: a guy I think we may even as it was
Speaker 1: a geys thing. It was a guys thing. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: even talked about it last time you were on. We
Speaker 1: could have um, I don't remember, but yeah, shirgar bucks
Speaker 1: are those bucks that maybe mature mu So you're saying
Speaker 1: you're defining it as it's a thing, or you're just saying,
Speaker 1: this is theory that was laid out. Yeah, I'm explaining.
Speaker 1: I'm explaining about guys' theory. Yeah, because I don't. He
Speaker 1: spent his PhD in Bath National Park observing mulder that
Speaker 1: apparently we're pretty tamed, so he could observe them a
Speaker 1: close range, and from those observations he wrote a lot
Speaker 1: about um about mulder breeding. But his theory was that
Speaker 1: there's some sugar bucks and they shirre they and he
Speaker 1: calls it that because they shirked their responsive ability to
Speaker 1: breathe that year. It's a great work and they he said,
Speaker 1: they just opt out of rut. They gained a lot
Speaker 1: of fat. They don't burn their fat because they're not
Speaker 1: running dough. They could just just stand around and the
Speaker 1: time and and and bide their time. And hopefully his
Speaker 1: theory was at some point then they're so big and
Speaker 1: so fat and so powerful they come down the mountain.
Speaker 1: They're like, I'll take your boys, I'll take them all
Speaker 1: on hunts for Yeah, um, I don't. I don't know
Speaker 1: of any evidence of any other evidence of that other
Speaker 1: than his stories. Yeah did he just kicks it and
Speaker 1: I do all the pre rut He was saying that
Speaker 1: it would go on for multiple years and then one
Speaker 1: year it's like, oh yeah, not just a season. No,
Speaker 1: he would go grow to be four or five years
Speaker 1: old and shirk all those seasons was up on the
Speaker 1: day of that. It would be a cumulative effect that
Speaker 1: at five years he's like, now, boys, nobody's messing all
Speaker 1: other Like, holy shit, yeah he's been gaining shirking out there.
Speaker 1: So it was like a lifetime play. And the only
Speaker 1: way that would work from an evolutionary standpoint if on
Speaker 1: year five or whatever, he was able to to father
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of offspring. I mean, that would be
Speaker 1: the only advantage I do. We did talk of this.
Speaker 1: I remember you making the you're making an astute observation
Speaker 1: that if that's your reproductive strategy, you have a high
Speaker 1: degree of cockiness that you're not gonna die in year two,
Speaker 1: year three, year four. You better be nocturnal. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you gotta have a good place to shirk. What why
Speaker 1: do people use UM? I don't know how to ask questions?
Speaker 1: Why does it? Why do people use blue tongue and
Speaker 1: e h D kind of synonymously? But they're not the same, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not. They're not the same thing, but they're they're
Speaker 1: very close. They're both hemorrhagic disease. They both cause kind
Speaker 1: of the same symptoms, but they are very much different things.
Speaker 1: There's two forms of h D e h D one
Speaker 1: and two, and then blue tongue. I don't remember. There's
Speaker 1: like seven different types of blue tongue, and they're the
Speaker 1: virologists can tell them apart when they do like phr
Speaker 1: genetic analysis UM. So they're definitely different things that e
Speaker 1: h D is is usually more of a deer cattle thing.
Speaker 1: Blue tongue tends to be more prong horn goats, sheep
Speaker 1: kind of thing. For some reason, give me the life
Speaker 1: cycle of that disease. It's spread by aculoquoits vera pennis
Speaker 1: it's a it's a gnat basically a noseum is what
Speaker 1: spreads that and so you'll so it's you've got to
Speaker 1: have some moisture in order to spread that disease. But
Speaker 1: it's a virus that's just spread by the bites of
Speaker 1: those gnats, and so he's got to bite a deer
Speaker 1: then bite another deer. Yeah right. Why is it that,
Speaker 1: like in a place like Montana here where you have
Speaker 1: places where there's mule deer and white tail like overlapping
Speaker 1: in the same habitat, Why is it that it hits
Speaker 1: white tails so much harder and mule deer seem to
Speaker 1: not be as affected by it. I don't know the
Speaker 1: species difference, but there's definitely a multi year protection once
Speaker 1: once animals get e h D and if they survive,
Speaker 1: and most animals do survive, they've got antibodies for that
Speaker 1: for that virus and when it comes. That's why it
Speaker 1: usually doesn't hit like every year. It'll it would be
Speaker 1: bad one year, and then it won't hit for a
Speaker 1: couple of years because even if it's in the environment,
Speaker 1: those animals have high end bodies and they fight it off.
Speaker 1: Um they had they had some capsive deer in Mississippi
Speaker 1: and some capsive deer in in Michigan. And it's it's
Speaker 1: something that's mostly has been it's moving North definitely, but
Speaker 1: it has been a southern uh kind of disease in
Speaker 1: the in the warmer climates. And they brought some Michigan
Speaker 1: deer down into the pens with the Mississippi deer. In
Speaker 1: the Michigan deer just all died because they had no
Speaker 1: exposure to they're very susceptible to it, and whereas the
Speaker 1: whereas the Mississippi deer had some antibodies and had some
Speaker 1: exposure to it. And so it's that there's definitely some
Speaker 1: of that protection. Um. I and are some diseases that
Speaker 1: it is more of a white tail thing and not
Speaker 1: so much immediate Yeah, like up on the Milk River,
Speaker 1: like I don't know the last time e h D
Speaker 1: hit like a crush like the white tails last year.
Speaker 1: Old there were last year from what ranchers were saying,
Speaker 1: the build there were basically un effected. Yeah, And and
Speaker 1: that's a known thing, um But I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just species are different species are
Speaker 1: susceptible to different things, like different um, different dog breeds
Speaker 1: are more or less susceptible to rattlesnake bites and things
Speaker 1: like that. They're just does that have anything to do
Speaker 1: with the amount of moisture you get in a year.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a bad year, a good year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's super dry because we I co authored a scientific
Speaker 1: paper like twenty five years ago when we documented for
Speaker 1: the first time in Arizona, so in an arid climates
Speaker 1: where there isn't a lot of water for those no sums,
Speaker 1: a little gnats to reproduce, which is the vector. It
Speaker 1: won't spread animal to animal. It's got to be insect bites.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a bad insect year. Yeah, it's gotta
Speaker 1: be bad. There's a lot of no sums this year
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yep, definitely. And we and they found
Speaker 1: out that the one that some of them in the
Speaker 1: Southwest can actually reproduce in the moisture of like cactus,
Speaker 1: broken cactus. That's all the moisture they need to reproduce.
Speaker 1: So that's been fun. But but definitely some moisture around
Speaker 1: where you've got a lot of gnats that year. Now, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's gonna get a little complicated. I think I know
Speaker 1: the answer to this, but I wanna make sure I
Speaker 1: know the answer to this. Why do when when dear
Speaker 1: get e h D, why do they all turn up
Speaker 1: land and rivers and ponds and creeks. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: they're water tanks. They're byremic. They're just like you know,
Speaker 1: like when you've got the flu, you want to drink
Speaker 1: a lot of water. They just want to drink a
Speaker 1: lot when they when they get their temperature comes up
Speaker 1: and they've got that virus and they're sick, they just
Speaker 1: naturally head to water to drink or to cool off
Speaker 1: and they usually die like late summer early fall. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's definitely a late summer thing that that's the first
Speaker 1: thing that makes you suspicious that maybe it's an e
Speaker 1: h D thing there by water in late summer. Now,
Speaker 1: last year, I think it was last year Nebraska. Let
Speaker 1: me know when it starts. Bringing a bell i for
Speaker 1: you guys. Last year in some portion of Nebraska, maybe
Speaker 1: it's two years ago, they were buying back dear tags.
Speaker 1: I think that happened in the Dakotas to maybe North North.
Speaker 1: They're they're buying back deer tags and some of them
Speaker 1: and there's different people department people talking about the cause.
Speaker 1: They were attributing it to the incredible dryness. But but
Speaker 1: here's the catch. It was congregating dear more around water.
Speaker 1: Do you buy that it could be? I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't know the details of that North Dakota incident. To
Speaker 1: that degree. You've got to have the vectors, you've got
Speaker 1: to have the insects to do that. Concentrated around water
Speaker 1: would put them all together, like feeding deer in the
Speaker 1: CWD area or whatever. Definitely you've got disease spread much
Speaker 1: more than that. But I don't know if they had
Speaker 1: like a wet spring with a whole bunch of gnats
Speaker 1: all over the place and then it got dried through
Speaker 1: the summer and they were concentrated. I don't know that
Speaker 1: kind of kind of details. What might have happened. Hey,
Speaker 1: what's a nude mouse model? Yes, well, it's like the
Speaker 1: naked um, naked mole rat, the hairless cat let. Let
Speaker 1: me read the article title Development of a nude mouse
Speaker 1: model for the study of ant loo genesis, Mechanism of
Speaker 1: tissue interactions and ossification pathway. Yeah, they basically bred some
Speaker 1: naked rats, some naked mice for studies for in in
Speaker 1: in the lab so that they didn't have all that
Speaker 1: fur on there and they could do skin grafting studies
Speaker 1: and things like that. They would have this nude mouse,
Speaker 1: and so the model part of it is just they
Speaker 1: use this nude mouse as a model to do all
Speaker 1: kinds of different research and have found it apparently have
Speaker 1: found it pretty useful. But they we were talking about
Speaker 1: the um and there's when a when a fall and
Speaker 1: a buckfhone is born. It has what's called an antler
Speaker 1: periosteum um underneath the skin of the forehead and it's
Speaker 1: not attached. It's it's a tissue not attached to the
Speaker 1: skull and it's not really attached to the skin initially,
Speaker 1: just floats just in between there and then eventually it's
Speaker 1: insert that into Yoni's head, you could and he would
Speaker 1: grow antlers. Because they haven't done it with humans, but
Speaker 1: they this nude mouse model paper. They took some of
Speaker 1: that antler pereostium, which is a stem cells and stem
Speaker 1: cells or cells that can develop into anything organs or
Speaker 1: skin or bone or anything. And so they took some
Speaker 1: of those the antler pereostium material, grafted it under the
Speaker 1: skin of the forehead of these nude mice and they
Speaker 1: grew little antler buds on top of their their heads.
Speaker 1: And they've taken that antler pereostium and even grafted onto
Speaker 1: a leg of a deer and it grew a spike
Speaker 1: on its leg bone, on the side of the leg bone,
Speaker 1: and so they can grab that people shape testing out
Speaker 1: shampoo on him. Little buggers, but like that, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then it's like rogue taxidermy and the and then that
Speaker 1: least secure bone cancer and then everybody I thought they
Speaker 1: just I thought it was just like it was like
Speaker 1: part of the Texas. But those like they will grow
Speaker 1: one for you out of his butt. And when they
Speaker 1: do it to a deer that antlers still on the
Speaker 1: legs still reacts to the whole the annual hormonal cycle,
Speaker 1: and the antlers actually shed. Antlers are shed because it's
Speaker 1: still feeding all of the same hormones out of the
Speaker 1: blood system. That's wild and so they've been able to
Speaker 1: transplocate that. And they've also taken the stem cells from
Speaker 1: the antler periosteum. Tuny Leah researcher in china Um has
Speaker 1: cloned to adult red deer just from the cells from
Speaker 1: an antler periostum and about eight deer some other deer species.
Speaker 1: I don't love their roos deer. Can you send me that.
Speaker 1: Can you get me? Can you send me in Will
Speaker 1: the picture of the pink mouse with the antlers put
Speaker 1: it on Instagram? You want. We're talking about going at
Speaker 1: stephen or Nell and will show you an antlers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pink mouse with a big ball bunet's head, you know,
Speaker 1: and that was from the quarter inch adler. So they've
Speaker 1: taken those. Yeah at the vase. The vase is big. Yeah, say,
Speaker 1: I mean they've cloned whole red deer just from the
Speaker 1: cells of the antler periostume. Man, what Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: if it's like if it I guess if you've got
Speaker 1: an eyeball toward cancer, or you think about if you've
Speaker 1: got an endangered species and there you've got five left
Speaker 1: and they're ready to blink out. If you could clone
Speaker 1: those not ideal, but it's better than losing them completely. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I'm just talking about like making mice
Speaker 1: have antlers. Yeah right, all right. You know in CWD research,
Speaker 1: they have what's called servitized mice and they have some
Speaker 1: SERVA genes inserted into the genome of the mouse and
Speaker 1: then they can study with mice with their their fast
Speaker 1: generation time. You know, they're reproducing all the time. You
Speaker 1: can get ten generations in a year or two. And
Speaker 1: so those mice have deer jeans inserted in them and
Speaker 1: they can study deer jeans that are that are relevant
Speaker 1: to CWD research. So they can they can have all
Speaker 1: these mice instead of having deer and waiting to get
Speaker 1: ten years old and do research on the genetics dear,
Speaker 1: dear jeans. But in mice, they're called serviantized mice. And
Speaker 1: I was in the lab in Denver once and I
Speaker 1: asked the director did they get and I started raising
Speaker 1: my hands like little antlers. They said no, no no, no,
Speaker 1: they don't get antlers. Recently, you and I have been
Speaker 1: swapping photos a two headed deer. It started out with
Speaker 1: a two headed spike YEP in Mexico, and you said,
Speaker 1: don't do anything with this right, but we can release
Speaker 1: it now. At the beginning the picture, it came to
Speaker 1: a friend of mine and then come to me and
Speaker 1: I asked if we could post it, and he said, well,
Speaker 1: let's wait a second, but I've now got the go
Speaker 1: ahead we can. We can post that. And I don't
Speaker 1: have any additional information that was killed, any better photos
Speaker 1: of it. I don't that's the only that's the only
Speaker 1: photos tell the story of this, dear. So it's a
Speaker 1: it's a year obviously year laying it's a spike. There's
Speaker 1: a picture of it laying there, bloody tongues hanging out.
Speaker 1: It was harvested by someone u in in the Mexican
Speaker 1: state of Guerrero, which is like Acapulco, is kind of
Speaker 1: up the coast in southwestern Mexico. Um in the mountains
Speaker 1: of pet that land, and the picture came to a
Speaker 1: friend of mine, uh and apparently all of the locals
Speaker 1: were pretty freaked out just for superstitious reasons about this
Speaker 1: two headed deer. I mean it was it was um.
Speaker 1: People were pretty worried about it because it looks so
Speaker 1: strange and if the one photo we have it looks legit,
Speaker 1: you know, you never know these things. I'm always a
Speaker 1: little guarded um about that. But we've had two headed
Speaker 1: fawns documented years on my instagram from Jim sent this
Speaker 1: to me on my Instagram. I have photos X rays
Speaker 1: of a two headed fawn. Yeah. But the thing that
Speaker 1: blew me away about the little spike as they get
Speaker 1: actually lived right, and dude, I wish I had video
Speaker 1: of it, like could he eat with both of its
Speaker 1: heads that one just kind of hang out. That's why
Speaker 1: a little part of me is guarded. You know that
Speaker 1: it's a it's a hoax. But I've looked at the
Speaker 1: picture and and if you have a fawn that's two headed,
Speaker 1: it's only one more year. It would only have to
Speaker 1: live a year for that thing to be a spike
Speaker 1: and to get shot. And it would depend on what's
Speaker 1: going on inside. With these what's called conjoined twins, where
Speaker 1: they're just twins that are joined and they share body parts.
Speaker 1: It depends what's going on inside. Every every individual is different.
Speaker 1: And that two headed phone that you posted that did
Speaker 1: not have two complete digestive tracks when they did the
Speaker 1: knee cropsy on it, the right head had a complete
Speaker 1: digestive track, the left head the digestive track was intermittent
Speaker 1: and was blind. Came to a blind end, and in
Speaker 1: at least two places it's esophagus didn't fuse in with
Speaker 1: the main line. That he wouldn't have been able to
Speaker 1: eat right and then the and then back by the
Speaker 1: wrectum somewhere there was another blind stop. And so it
Speaker 1: depends with the spike. If it had two complete digestive tracks.
Speaker 1: It's conceivable it could live live one year and get shot.
Speaker 1: Um as a spike. What what kind of deer? Was it?
Speaker 1: Just that white tailed deer? Yeah, the the spike was
Speaker 1: white tailed deer in the Yeah, that's right. It might
Speaker 1: have been one of the other Mexican Highlands subspecies, but
Speaker 1: none of those have been studied. All of those are
Speaker 1: just kind of smaller deer in Mexico. So tell about
Speaker 1: this one we do know is in fact like totally legit, right.
Speaker 1: The fawn, the faun, Yeah, was it found dead. It
Speaker 1: was found dead in two thousands sixteen in in um
Speaker 1: was it Michigan or Minnesota? Minnesota? Um got mushroom hunter
Speaker 1: was out and he found this fall and it was
Speaker 1: in perfect condition. That wasn't decomposing. It was dead um
Speaker 1: and it looked like it had been cleaned off by
Speaker 1: the mother. But they did a knee cropsy. They did
Speaker 1: a fantastic job. Luke Cornicelli who was a big game
Speaker 1: leader in Minnesota, and and Gino D'Angelo was a University
Speaker 1: of Georgia professor, and they did X rays, They did
Speaker 1: a complete knee cropsy to look at it. One thing
Speaker 1: they did was they they put the lungs in water,
Speaker 1: and the lung sunk, which means they've never had air
Speaker 1: in them. That's the way you can tell if it's
Speaker 1: still born us. So they so it never had taken
Speaker 1: a breath, so it was still born, but it seemed
Speaker 1: to be cleaned off, so they felt like it was
Speaker 1: still born. The mother cleaned it and then abandoned it,
Speaker 1: and this guy must have found it right after that
Speaker 1: because it was in in pristine condition. I was just
Speaker 1: watching a movie about that. Um, what was that famous
Speaker 1: operation they did in World War two where they they
Speaker 1: threw a guy in the ocean. They threw an officer
Speaker 1: in the fake officer in the ocean, but they had
Speaker 1: to make up a whole background on him, and he
Speaker 1: had and he was carrying like letters, fake letters, and
Speaker 1: it's what led the So it's what led the Nazis
Speaker 1: to believe that the ants that the Sicily landing was
Speaker 1: going to be in Greece. Yeah, I remember that they
Speaker 1: put fake documents that he'd wash and they made him
Speaker 1: a whole fake pass. They made a girlfriend talk about
Speaker 1: they took a corpse and and it had They took
Speaker 1: a corpse and just dumped it off summary and um,
Speaker 1: and they made up like this thing with a person
Speaker 1: with a past. They had an actual girlfriend with the
Speaker 1: past to pull one over on the nuts and it worked.
Speaker 1: But they had a hell of a time. Um. I
Speaker 1: guess for a long time they needed a body and
Speaker 1: they were afraid that someone would be this person didn't
Speaker 1: die in the water, and I always and they didn't
Speaker 1: really get into it. But I wonder if that's what
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Yeah, I'm certainly there's forensic ways to
Speaker 1: tell whether they drowned or roun like something about like
Speaker 1: what the condition of the lungs would be or something.
Speaker 1: Did they determine why this thing like didn't take a breath,
Speaker 1: like why it didn't you know? And when they when
Speaker 1: they look at the discontinuous um digestive track, you know,
Speaker 1: there's probably just all kinds of things um wrong with it.
Speaker 1: There's been two other white tailed deer fawns, two headed fawns, documented,
Speaker 1: but this is the first one that's been documented to
Speaker 1: have been born even still born. The rest were in
Speaker 1: fetuses where they didn't need crops. He's on pregnant females
Speaker 1: and then they ran into these two headed fawns inside
Speaker 1: the let's start Baculum, bacula, baculus. Okay, hit me. So
Speaker 1: I was looking. I was looking for some information for Spencer,
Speaker 1: and I think it's for an upcoming trivial question. So
Speaker 1: I won't one of details. But I ran into this paper.
Speaker 1: But I ran into this paper. That's all I needed
Speaker 1: to hear. Right, believe what I just do? Some read no,
Speaker 1: believe me what I What I just said isn't gonna
Speaker 1: be a hint for whatever is coming up. But I
Speaker 1: started Spencer three duzies for when I'm not here. They're
Speaker 1: killing me. I want to ask you, guys, if you
Speaker 1: know I'm so bad, I'm not gonna well. I was
Speaker 1: reading this paper and had a whole bunch of different things,
Speaker 1: and that one thing it had was um was extra
Speaker 1: skeleton bones like bones and I aren't attached to the skeleton.
Speaker 1: Had a whole bunch of science on Bacula. Thought about
Speaker 1: that it's a bone unattached to the skeleton, just like,
Speaker 1: can't rouse have these bones that support the pouch? They do?
Speaker 1: They do. They support the pouch. And the males have
Speaker 1: them too, which obviously don't support the pouch because male
Speaker 1: kangaroos don't have a pouch, but they's part of the
Speaker 1: pelvic girdle and it's not attached. It's just another example
Speaker 1: of one of these shoulders not attached. Yeah, I know
Speaker 1: that that's that's true. Oh yeah, pretty damn good. I
Speaker 1: mean with muscles. Yeah, you're right now, once you start
Speaker 1: cutting it, it's not right, right. Yeah. Okay, So there's
Speaker 1: a whole paper on these the extra extra bones actually
Speaker 1: had antlers in there and and um and cheap horns
Speaker 1: in there too. But I was reading about these bacula
Speaker 1: and was surprised. Which is what was the question that
Speaker 1: Spencer asked? Yeah, I forgot that one. So so I'm
Speaker 1: reading the paper vaculum, and I run into the fact
Speaker 1: that females have um, a companion to the baculum, which
Speaker 1: is actually a clearteresst bone, is what it is. All
Speaker 1: the species that have vaculums the female. Yeah, not but
Speaker 1: almost all of those species. And you don't find it
Speaker 1: in other speech. She's if they don't have a vaculum um,
Speaker 1: then then they're not gonna have And the female black
Speaker 1: take a black bear, for instance, a female black bear
Speaker 1: has a floating clitoral bacula, genital bone and it's called
Speaker 1: a barbell um b a U bl like. So let's
Speaker 1: say a bore black beard like whatever five six inch long? Yeah,
Speaker 1: how what size would that female bone? Being much smaller
Speaker 1: and and there they don't look just like it, they're
Speaker 1: they're completely different, um in shape as you'd imagine how
Speaker 1: big you say, um, the you haven't he was looking
Speaker 1: at some No, I don't know. It'd be interesting. I
Speaker 1: didn't even know about it strong enough if you were,
Speaker 1: you know, cleaning that bear butcher that you probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: even notice. No, you'd have to look for it. You
Speaker 1: have to go in there and certainly look for it,
Speaker 1: because like even like a Walworth's vaculum is is like
Speaker 1: eighteen inches long, and the female Um, I've seen pictures
Speaker 1: of both, isn't I thought you can use those as
Speaker 1: a walking stick, just about can. No, it's like a thing.
Speaker 1: Walce Walas has the largest vacuum in relation to body length,
Speaker 1: like eighteen percent of its body length, so like one
Speaker 1: fifth of its body length is vaculum. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: people used to make little walking sticks that they're like
Speaker 1: little miniature baseball get bats you get at the at
Speaker 1: the ball game, but for short. No, it would be short,
Speaker 1: Danny DeVito add but it's like, but they you know, vaculum,
Speaker 1: they're found in a lot of carnivores, they're founded bears,
Speaker 1: found in rodents Um primates bats. Bat vaculum is about
Speaker 1: zero point one five millimeters. A tenth of a millimeter
Speaker 1: is a bat vaculum. Had them and then and then
Speaker 1: they talked about the ball bellum, the female version of it.
Speaker 1: Of almost all of these, probably eighty percent of the
Speaker 1: species that have vaculums, the females have a ball bellum too,
Speaker 1: so it comes hand in hand. I have never even
Speaker 1: heard it. So a bunch of research on that is like,
Speaker 1: well why would you have a bone um for the
Speaker 1: female genital you And they think it's just something that
Speaker 1: came along in evolution, like male nipples. I mean two
Speaker 1: sexes having something and it's really only functional in one
Speaker 1: of the sexes. So it's probably something that just came
Speaker 1: along in evolution with that, and it's more variable to
Speaker 1: the female ball bellum. Even in some species that have it,
Speaker 1: you may have some individual females that don't have it
Speaker 1: and some that do have it, like it's it's not
Speaker 1: functional and so it's it's real variable now, but we
Speaker 1: know for a fact that it's not functional. Yeah, I mean, well,
Speaker 1: I don't think you can never say that, but nobody's
Speaker 1: been able to. There's a whole bunch of different um theories,
Speaker 1: even the vaculum theories about what what purpose that serves?
Speaker 1: And there's a whole bunch of different theories, and and
Speaker 1: the scientists will will tell you throw up their hands
Speaker 1: and we're not really sure, um what what purposes? There's
Speaker 1: a couple obvious ones, but um, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: theories that have come across on that. If anyone out
Speaker 1: there collects the what do you call it, a taxidermist
Speaker 1: or anyone just starting and send them to us, and
Speaker 1: maybe I'll make some jewelry the next the next auction house. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and so there's there's a lot of variability in
Speaker 1: in um animals that have it, all of those like
Speaker 1: the bear family, the raccoon family, UM, the a lot
Speaker 1: of carnivores um. There's a lot of exceptions in there
Speaker 1: of species like primates are one that have vaculums. Humans
Speaker 1: obviously are are an exception to that. But there's exceptions
Speaker 1: in all those categories of certain species that don't actually
Speaker 1: have a vaculum. M just just species that are exceptions
Speaker 1: to that. Uh, we've been we we've been talking a
Speaker 1: lot about UM lead in wildlife. UM. You had written
Speaker 1: a piece for our website about lead and wildlife. Yep, yep,
Speaker 1: give me the give me the quick and dirty where
Speaker 1: you add on it. So the reason the reason I
Speaker 1: wrote that piece is there's just there's a lot of
Speaker 1: talk you read about lead and wild life, and you
Speaker 1: seem to get the same old things. But there's some
Speaker 1: other things that I think aren't being talked about. Mostly
Speaker 1: all the nuance people are happy to glom onto these
Speaker 1: the bumper sticker sayings or just generalities like like having
Speaker 1: lead in your vendicine is obviously bad for human health
Speaker 1: UM and and people talk about like lead using lead
Speaker 1: ammunition is um toxic to wildlife. Well, my piece was,
Speaker 1: let's focus on what the real issue is. The real
Speaker 1: issue isn't mammals, reptiles, amphibians with lead ammunition. The real
Speaker 1: issue with birds that are that are consuming mostly that
Speaker 1: are consuming um meat, or birds that will pick up
Speaker 1: lead pellets as grit um. Both both of those ways.
Speaker 1: But birds are very susceptible to to lead poisoning. So
Speaker 1: let's focus on what the issue is. The issue is
Speaker 1: lead ingestion by birds. That's what the issue is. And
Speaker 1: and it's not just generally leading exposure because I hear
Speaker 1: people saying, you know, they talk about lead exposure being bad.
Speaker 1: Let's be specific. It's ingestion of lead by those birds.
Speaker 1: And then let's focus on where it is a problem
Speaker 1: and if we need to make some management changes in
Speaker 1: a local area or local valley. State and provincial and
Speaker 1: tribal game and fish agencies are in the position to
Speaker 1: to change regulations if if it if it's deemed a problem.
Speaker 1: But nationwide bands, statewide bands about lead exposure of wildlife,
Speaker 1: so we need to we need to ban lead or
Speaker 1: or implement regulations. When you look at the science banning
Speaker 1: lead or or advocating um that everybody switched to non
Speaker 1: lead bullets and ammunition is not very well supported from
Speaker 1: a conservation standpoint, population um level conservation is not very
Speaker 1: well supported from a human health standpoint. Metallic lead is
Speaker 1: very different than um organic lead compounds, which is what's
Speaker 1: in lead paint and lead gasoline, and and and clutch
Speaker 1: um clutch pads and break pads. Those those that's a
Speaker 1: very different kind of lead that can poison people very easily.
Speaker 1: Consuming a number eight lead pellet once every week is
Speaker 1: not going to elevate your blood levels. You've got to
Speaker 1: consume metallic lead almost daily. And that's what the that's
Speaker 1: what the human medical research shows before your blood levels
Speaker 1: are elevated to the point where it's the CDC safe levels.
Speaker 1: This might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but
Speaker 1: what would you say if I told you that seth
Speaker 1: ate so much tuna that he got mercury poisoning. Apparently
Speaker 1: that's possible because I eat a lot of sushi, and
Speaker 1: I've also I've often wondered about that you did get that? Didn'to? You?
Speaker 1: Do you have mercury levels? I didn't actually get my
Speaker 1: levels check, but I was I had symptoms of He
Speaker 1: came back with a lot of tune and ate at
Speaker 1: all one fell swoop. I eat tuna. I eat sushi
Speaker 1: enough that I kind of think about that. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: part partially that in Louisiana, eat and kobea and just
Speaker 1: I would a fish. In a month's time, at least
Speaker 1: fifty of my meals were fish, big red snapper. And
Speaker 1: what were the symptoms my hands were going numb um
Speaker 1: like I was having weird memory loss. But this is
Speaker 1: the thing. See, I would have thought I would have
Speaker 1: rolled my eyes like that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. However,
Speaker 1: I really I had read a piece recently. There's this
Speaker 1: guy that like never ate fish. There's a there's a
Speaker 1: he got pulled off a cruise ship. He never ate fish.
Speaker 1: He's on a cruise ship that has like a sushi
Speaker 1: deal and just camped out on it with like developed
Speaker 1: mrket like a it's a temporary thing. You get better,
Speaker 1: you stop eating, you get better. He developed like a
Speaker 1: like a like a temporary mercury poisoning. But it stays
Speaker 1: in your system, doesn't it. No, eventually, where do we
Speaker 1: sure about that? Well, I mean, I'm sure you have
Speaker 1: some we're talking about enough to liken you dee in
Speaker 1: the dirt like like it did set. I was looking
Speaker 1: at that. I was looking at the recommended that, uh,
Speaker 1: like the consumption recommendations for just for like Kane Ferry
Speaker 1: local Lake here, and they say five servings of walleye
Speaker 1: per month is what they don't they recommend like no
Speaker 1: more than that, and the servings eight ounces of fish definitely,
Speaker 1: Like I was eating eight ounces of fish, Like I
Speaker 1: was eating way more than that a night. Is that
Speaker 1: an issue with big plagic fish though, these little lakes
Speaker 1: sometimes gets and minds going into I was when I
Speaker 1: was doing research, it said that Kobe is one of
Speaker 1: the highest, like one of the fish has the highest
Speaker 1: mercury levels. And it's an issue with big plagic fatty
Speaker 1: are like the living pretty long time, their bioaccumulating big
Speaker 1: fish and it's like industrial it's industrial. Um, what do
Speaker 1: you call like shipping the air a flute? What's what
Speaker 1: I'm looking for? Industrial fluent that comes down on the
Speaker 1: ocean surface and big fish that and that they're big
Speaker 1: enough that they're eating their bioaccumulating from older fish. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it gets more. Think about a marlin. Marlin will eat
Speaker 1: Mahia gets more fish eat a great white shrik, You're
Speaker 1: probably in trouble. One of my favorite fish writers, he
Speaker 1: like does these great books. His name is Vick Dunaway.
Speaker 1: I got a bunch of his books. He does, like
Speaker 1: these books that are um, if you're going fishing somewhere,
Speaker 1: let's say you're going on vacation to the Gulf coast,
Speaker 1: you get Vick Dunaway's like sport fish of the Gulf
Speaker 1: Coast and it's um, great picture of the fish. What's
Speaker 1: up with it? So if you catch fish like the
Speaker 1: hell's that, you flip through Vic Dunaway and find your
Speaker 1: fish and he always he has He's really great, like
Speaker 1: very concise food quality assessments which are like spot on
Speaker 1: and very concise. And his one for great white shark
Speaker 1: is don't even ask how did you put two and
Speaker 1: two together? Uh? You were getting weird symptoms and then yeah,
Speaker 1: well I was just I was just eating a lot
Speaker 1: of fish, and I was like, um, I've always thought
Speaker 1: about mercur was psychosomatic? You thought about it before you
Speaker 1: got symptoms. I had two symptoms first, and then I
Speaker 1: was like, you got to thinking and then got symptoms,
Speaker 1: and you tell me right now he had liver cancer
Speaker 1: due in five minutes. My livered hurt, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it just wasn't that um. And I mentioned it to Kelsey.
Speaker 1: I was like, I've kind of been having like weird uh,
Speaker 1: like my hands are going numb um, and yeah, she goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm having the same thing. WHOA So the Morris household man, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean the one week. I eat fish every single
Speaker 1: night for dinner. We did. We eat a lot of
Speaker 1: fish too. Well, you gotta eat it when it's fresh, right,
Speaker 1: It's like that's one of those things that doesn't last
Speaker 1: in the freezer forever. Yeah, but it's Yeah. I eat
Speaker 1: a lot of fish too, and I feed my kids
Speaker 1: a lot of fish. But we punctuated. Not. I don't
Speaker 1: punctuate it because of mercury. I just punctuated because I
Speaker 1: don't know, like whatever. Yeah, well usually I do too.
Speaker 1: I just I'm like on a low red meat here.
Speaker 1: So there's some I can help you out with that. Wow,
Speaker 1: it's I'll be good. Yeah, it would be it'd be
Speaker 1: cool to test some of that stuff the next time
Speaker 1: you get some. That would be great. Many Maybe you
Speaker 1: can buy a really expensive machine that Greg Fons has
Speaker 1: had some test that I believe. I think he's done
Speaker 1: there somehow or another. Hey, let me ask you this
Speaker 1: where I want to cover this some more detail when
Speaker 1: I got my story straight. But there's some legislation coming up, um,
Speaker 1: some federal legislation coming up that I'm not I'm a
Speaker 1: little hazy on details, so I want to tiptoe around
Speaker 1: it a little bit. Having to do with limiting the
Speaker 1: ability of federal land management agencies two restrict lead shot
Speaker 1: and land ammunition on lands under their purview. Wasn't there?
Speaker 1: I thought there was just something about wildlife refugees like
Speaker 1: a big bank, So that's that's what That's what I thought. Well, No,
Speaker 1: it would be like limiting the ability in the future
Speaker 1: that that some national forest can't at the federal level
Speaker 1: say hey, even those the states handling wildlife management, we're
Speaker 1: gonna come in and say that just because no lad
Speaker 1: ammunition on our national forest, like limiting their ability and
Speaker 1: making it be that it has your chiefs certain like
Speaker 1: it has to be that that that the lead has
Speaker 1: to be linked to a population as the primary cause
Speaker 1: of a population decline and not done frivolously. Do you
Speaker 1: got any comment on that or is it a little
Speaker 1: or to tell I don't know about limiting the ability
Speaker 1: of agencies to do that. There is UM a federal
Speaker 1: registered notice now about some refugees. They're being open to hunting,
Speaker 1: but that comes with the caveat of of no lead
Speaker 1: and so that's open for comment right now, and and
Speaker 1: their justification for that UM is not only not compelling,
Speaker 1: but there isn't much of a justification. They just have
Speaker 1: general statements about um lead and health and wildlife and
Speaker 1: doing the right thing and good conservation, so they don't
Speaker 1: they don't justify why lead couldn't be used in those
Speaker 1: particular cases. But as far as limiting federal agencies ability,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to be based on science, and it
Speaker 1: often isn't. So if if there's, uh, if you can
Speaker 1: demonstrate some particular problem with using lead AMMO in that spot,
Speaker 1: you know, let's regulate it. But state, state, and provincial
Speaker 1: and tribal agencies, that's what they do. They have an
Speaker 1: issue that that impacts conservation and and they make some
Speaker 1: changes to to address that. And my meat eat piece
Speaker 1: did had really four um four topics that often don't
Speaker 1: get talked about, and and one is what species are
Speaker 1: actually actually affected, and I mentioned that. The other thing
Speaker 1: is that the idea of population level effects. So for
Speaker 1: a long time me and other people have said, hey,
Speaker 1: there's no population level effects, so there so we don't
Speaker 1: need to regulate it. The truth is there probably is
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of population level effects with golden eagles
Speaker 1: and with bald eagles, um and and and other animals
Speaker 1: we're just not monitoring them and studying them with such
Speaker 1: intensity that we would be able to detect a population
Speaker 1: level effect. But other than condors, condors is a big issue.
Speaker 1: But other than condors, I don't see any population level
Speaker 1: effects that are significant enough that would drive me to
Speaker 1: want to make some wide sweeping changes and what what
Speaker 1: ammal people use? And so I think we have to
Speaker 1: be careful in saying there's no population level effects, because
Speaker 1: there is, They're just small and in some cases we
Speaker 1: haven't detected them. Um So, so I don't say that
Speaker 1: any more population level effects. I talk more in terms
Speaker 1: of is using lead ammunition such an issue to the
Speaker 1: conservation of that speech sheets that we need to make
Speaker 1: some changes and and and I don't find any compelling
Speaker 1: arguments for um for species to that we would need
Speaker 1: to change. What do you personally shoot when you're hunting
Speaker 1: solid copper? Last twelve years, all of our rifles and
Speaker 1: I have two pistols, the ten millimeter and a four
Speaker 1: sixt year rolland that I've built up to be hunting pistols,
Speaker 1: and it's all copper, solid copper ammunition. And I've done that.
Speaker 1: I did that a long time ago. It started when
Speaker 1: my kids had junior hunts on the Kaibab and Arizona
Speaker 1: Game of Fish department gave us two boxes of premium
Speaker 1: copper Hammo um. So I have forty rounds of AMMO
Speaker 1: just free every time the kids got drawn. And then
Speaker 1: you could also get a box of fifty bullets if
Speaker 1: you reload, which I do. And so I was getting
Speaker 1: some of this free copper amos, started using it and
Speaker 1: really liked it. It It shoots really clean, it's accurate, it
Speaker 1: puts animals down, it's effective at that range, and I
Speaker 1: like the wound channel is so clean. You know, lead
Speaker 1: bullet will blow up and create a lot of blood
Speaker 1: shot um meat and there's a lot of They've shown
Speaker 1: some of those lead dust and those lead fragments to
Speaker 1: go of inches from the wound channel. I mean it does.
Speaker 1: That lead does spread into a lot of meat. And
Speaker 1: I like the fact that a copper bullet will punch
Speaker 1: a hole in there and you lose very little meat. Dude, listen,
Speaker 1: we so I was just hunting. We're just hunting moose,
Speaker 1: and we shot a bull three wind meg clay shot
Speaker 1: a bull three wind mag I'll stand it right next
Speaker 1: to him nineteen yards hunter eighty grain bullet I a
Speaker 1: three meg shooting Federal trophy copper. It went through the
Speaker 1: like ball, it went through the ball of the shoulder, Okay,
Speaker 1: cut that bone clean in half, went through both lungs,
Speaker 1: lodged against the high down the other side, and it
Speaker 1: was a absolutely perfect mushroom. Mushroom. Man. Yeah, that's that's amazing.
Speaker 1: Anything I'm making through that in a He's got things
Speaker 1: in his pocket right now and absolutely perfect mushroom at
Speaker 1: nineteen Like, is that only shot you shooting more times? No?
Speaker 1: He put no one right next to it, but didn't
Speaker 1: need to. None of the pedals sheared off or anything.
Speaker 1: That's crazy. But one thing I want to say about
Speaker 1: the whole lead issue, and I address it at the
Speaker 1: end of of my article online, is that even if
Speaker 1: if it's not a compelling issue too for everybody's which
Speaker 1: a copper for wide scale conservation issues or human health issues,
Speaker 1: we better be paying attention to hunter image because when
Speaker 1: they hold up a bald eagle, the symbol of freedom,
Speaker 1: and the thing is sick or dying because it adjusted
Speaker 1: a lead bullet, and they tell the whole audience that
Speaker 1: you know, hunters are still using lead bullets, and if
Speaker 1: they stop using lead bullets, we won't have this issue anymore.
Speaker 1: There's no doubt. It makes us look really bad, and
Speaker 1: we should be paying attention to that because of the
Speaker 1: public doesn't hunt, and that of the public still supports legal,
Speaker 1: regulated hunting to the tune of like percent support for hunting.
Speaker 1: So why why is there five percent of us that
Speaker 1: hunt and the other ninety five percent of the population
Speaker 1: supports us to such a high degree. It's because they
Speaker 1: know that hunting is a positive force for conservation. It
Speaker 1: does a lot of really good things for wild things
Speaker 1: in wild places, and so anything we've got like that
Speaker 1: that gives us a black eye, we'd better pay attention
Speaker 1: to and we better be careful of because we can't
Speaker 1: lose that support and we're gonna lose everything. So I
Speaker 1: I advocate people if they can start moving towards using
Speaker 1: non lead bullets, but mostly for the purpose of of
Speaker 1: of hunter um hunter image and just maintaining public support
Speaker 1: for what we do. And that's the main thing that
Speaker 1: that I think that's the best argument for hunters. When
Speaker 1: you start telling them that you're killing, you know, some
Speaker 1: small percentage of raptor populations, it's just not very compelling
Speaker 1: to get people a switch. But we better pay attention
Speaker 1: to how we look to the that don't hunt. I
Speaker 1: shoot copper, and I'm deeply uneasy with widespread ammunition bands
Speaker 1: that likes that aren't targeted. Now, I like to ask
Speaker 1: myself what what would I have been saying back when
Speaker 1: they did it for waterfowl? Yeah, no, in waterfall, there's
Speaker 1: a small percentage of ducks that were actually dying. That
Speaker 1: was not a population level of fact that that was done.
Speaker 1: It was lead pellets for for waterfowl was banned because
Speaker 1: bald eagles were still endangered at that time, and there
Speaker 1: were lawsuits about killing bald eagles that were eating ducks
Speaker 1: that had lead, and so bald eagles were getting poisoned
Speaker 1: by lead bald eagles around the Endangered Species Act. And
Speaker 1: that was the dry sweat drove. That's what drove the
Speaker 1: waterfowl lead band. Not impact, not population impacts to waterfall.
Speaker 1: What's have been to wrong? I've been drong A is
Speaker 1: a bear cat. It's a ververve. It it's a it's
Speaker 1: a kind of a goofy mammal that lives in Southeast
Speaker 1: Asia and in the forest, and they have a particular smell.
Speaker 1: They smell like popcorn. Um, and that that popcorn or
Speaker 1: But this isn't the guy that's that might be linked
Speaker 1: to No, no, no no, this isn't the raccoon looking thing
Speaker 1: that might be linked to COVID. No, that's a civit cat, right,
Speaker 1: it's the thing that a pangolin. Oh that's not no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you're right. Penguin. I think they even
Speaker 1: live in Lavia. Raccoon dogs the same the pangolin was
Speaker 1: read it on Jim's Instagram. Yeah, the penguin. The penguin
Speaker 1: was involved too. They found they found some DNA that
Speaker 1: was linked to the penguin. But these bear cats, people
Speaker 1: have observed for a long time, um that they actually
Speaker 1: like smell like fresh popcorn, which is bizarre because that
Speaker 1: the that smell, that fresh popcorn smell, or browned um
Speaker 1: buns or even seared steak, or that really nice smell
Speaker 1: when you're browning. Something comes from a reaction of amino
Speaker 1: acids and sugars and high heat. It's called a mail
Speaker 1: or Maillard reaction. It's like you have on here in
Speaker 1: the notes. It says unrelated to waterfall because it's action reaction. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a there's an steaks, fried dumplings, cookies, biscuits, breads,
Speaker 1: toasted marshmallows. Yep. So it creates that that chemical process
Speaker 1: of searing things with amino acids and and sure creates
Speaker 1: that smell. But these bear cats in um Southeast Asia
Speaker 1: running around with that same smell. And so some researchers
Speaker 1: looked at a whole bunch of compounds in their urine
Speaker 1: trying to find some compound that might correlate something that
Speaker 1: they all had um. And they found this too. Uh
Speaker 1: to a p is what's what it's called, and it's
Speaker 1: to a setal one pyrolane, and it's just a it's
Speaker 1: just a compound, but it's the compound that results from
Speaker 1: when you're browning bread or your searing steak, this this
Speaker 1: Maillard reaction um. And so they found that compound and
Speaker 1: it was the only of about fifty compounds, it was
Speaker 1: the only one that was in all the individuals, like
Speaker 1: twenty six bear cats that they tested. It was in
Speaker 1: all individuals. And it's known to create this smell um
Speaker 1: through the mailor reaction. But I mean, nobody's toasting these
Speaker 1: bent wrongs in the forest. So Um, it's coming from
Speaker 1: something else in their urinary track or their digestive track.
Speaker 1: And there's some bacteria that have been shown to actually
Speaker 1: create as a byproduct this two AP that makes that smell.
Speaker 1: And so they're they're only at this point theorizing that
Speaker 1: there's maybe some bacteria in the urine that's interacting and
Speaker 1: it's resulting in this two AP being produced and making
Speaker 1: them smell like like brown bones in the oven. Wow.
Speaker 1: You know, it might be a good little research project
Speaker 1: for you, Jim. Why do prong horns smell like freed
Speaker 1: to lake corn ship? I know I haven't heard that.
Speaker 1: I've heard that. And who you run your hands through
Speaker 1: their hair and smell your hands? You think you've been
Speaker 1: eating fried olcornship. I'm looking forward to that smell real soon.
Speaker 1: It is a crazy thing. I ate some Maillard reacted
Speaker 1: mallards last night. Oh delicious. Okay, I got I got one.
Speaker 1: I got one more for a gym unless unless you
Speaker 1: got out more things you want to add. No, it's good.
Speaker 1: Where are we at with um? You know, keep reading
Speaker 1: about COVID and white tails and the crazy rates of
Speaker 1: COVID and you know, sixties some percent of the white
Speaker 1: tailed deer sampled in let me clarify, sixties some percent
Speaker 1: of the white tailed deer sampled in Michigan. I remember,
Speaker 1: it's not that they had COVID, but they showed what
Speaker 1: the hell is it? They had exposure to the stars
Speaker 1: Kobe too virus that causes COVID. They didn't have the
Speaker 1: disease and the symptoms, but they had high end body levels.
Speaker 1: The body levels. Where does that sit right now? There
Speaker 1: hasn't been a lot. I was just this earlier this week.
Speaker 1: I was in the um Fort work that the Association
Speaker 1: Fishing Wilife Agencies, which is all fifty wilife agencies and
Speaker 1: all Canadian provinces and territories like Yukon and Northwest Territories,
Speaker 1: and they have a Wildlife Health meeting and they had
Speaker 1: a lot to address in that Wildlife Health meeting, which
Speaker 1: I always attend because that's the place you can get
Speaker 1: the latest information. And they weren't. They didn't have time
Speaker 1: to go into any detail. But the people from m
Speaker 1: U S d A and U S g S that
Speaker 1: are tracking us UM there's not a lot of new
Speaker 1: stuff since we talked in December about the fact, like
Speaker 1: you mentioned that these white tailed deer in the East
Speaker 1: UM are getting not only getting exposed to the stars
Speaker 1: Kobe two virus and having antibodies, but they're they're showing
Speaker 1: that they're being exposed to the actual UM variants that
Speaker 1: are circulating in the human population. At that time, pretty
Speaker 1: obvious that they're getting it from humans. I thought it
Speaker 1: was coming from Doug Duran's urine. Yeah, yeah, there is
Speaker 1: a lot of updates. They're they're right right, and so
Speaker 1: so as a sample like the sample white tails two
Speaker 1: years ago over here at the beginning of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: and they had the the original version, and then they
Speaker 1: sample next year, they sample during this other area and
Speaker 1: they've got the delta version, and then the deer over
Speaker 1: here have his omicron version later on. So they're getting
Speaker 1: them as the circulates through the human from really good
Speaker 1: like like what so it's still it definitely spilling over
Speaker 1: into the deer population. Now the concern is then that
Speaker 1: it circulates independently in the deer population and mutates as
Speaker 1: it does mutates and changes, and then they're they're worried
Speaker 1: about it's spelling back into humans. And that was documented
Speaker 1: in one case in Ontario where some guy that picks
Speaker 1: up road kills, shows up with the version that's circulating
Speaker 1: in the deer population at that time. So that was
Speaker 1: a case where deer actually the guy caught it people,
Speaker 1: but it didn't cause any unusual sickness. It was just um,
Speaker 1: he had a case of COVID. What's weird about that
Speaker 1: case is that mink are also susceptible, and mink farms
Speaker 1: have had to be depopulated because they've they've they've got
Speaker 1: the syrus Kobe two and make farm workers have caught
Speaker 1: it from the mink, those versions that are circulating in
Speaker 1: the mink. This guy they were pelting, like in Denmark
Speaker 1: and else where. They were pelting millions of mink or
Speaker 1: a should they were gassing millions of mink, and I
Speaker 1: thought it would lead to a real spike in in
Speaker 1: like mink and muskrat fur prices. But apparently they pelted.
Speaker 1: They pelted tons of those. Man can actually flooded the
Speaker 1: markets with with COVID mink pelts. Interesting, the one guy
Speaker 1: that got COVID from white tailed deer from picking up
Speaker 1: road kills in Ontario, that version he got from deer,
Speaker 1: but it was actually a mink variant that was in
Speaker 1: dear and then into human weird just weird weird stuff.
Speaker 1: So if you went to this wild this health thing,
Speaker 1: did you hear about this big bad hog virus? Stay
Speaker 1: tuned for that. Sean Weaver has been been a whistleblower
Speaker 1: about some big bad hog virus hog wild hog or domestic.
Speaker 1: Could you know? He said? He was saying to me
Speaker 1: and Cal, He's like, hey man, pay attention to this
Speaker 1: because I got you know, some disease. People are telling
Speaker 1: me this could turn into a huge deal. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: wish I knew that, because that's the spreading among hog
Speaker 1: populations on other continents. But there was some prediction. I see.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't be saying this ship because I don't know. Listen,
Speaker 1: let me let me keep your eye on those Listen,
Speaker 1: I am talking. I don't have no idea what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about. I don't know, however, something about some hog
Speaker 1: thing that could just be insane. I shouldn't need the hogs,
Speaker 1: we know it. Yeah, I wish I knew that from Jim. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you need to have Sean Sean's d report. We need
Speaker 1: to have Sean's hard report, and Sean will come hit
Speaker 1: us with a hog report. What else you got Jim's
Speaker 1: been a long time since we talked. Man, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: It's just good to be back. Good talk about fun stuff.
Speaker 1: Do you need anything? Is there anything I didn't that
Speaker 1: I didn't ask you that you needed to be asked about.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Just my Instagram account. I got
Speaker 1: rookie numbers with Yeah, if you guys could go and
Speaker 1: help bolster Jim back up. But listen, you just shoot you, Jim.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, shooting yourself at the foot. I
Speaker 1: don't know. You might just need to make a new
Speaker 1: one that sticks to. I'm not trying to tell you
Speaker 1: what to do, but you might need to make a
Speaker 1: new one at just sticks to, like dear Biology, and
Speaker 1: not do what you think might And you know what,
Speaker 1: want you do this and just cave into the a
Speaker 1: I bought. No, No, here's an idea. I got an
Speaker 1: idea for you because I don't want That's what I do.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to cave into the a ibots.
Speaker 1: Why don't you start to pistol Jim. Okay, pistol Jim.
Speaker 1: Pistol Jim. And that's like you're shooting account. And then
Speaker 1: you got your dear Biology account. Then you run these
Speaker 1: two accounts and see if the Pistol account blows up
Speaker 1: and never gets flagged and your Dear Biology account gets
Speaker 1: taken down, then it'll deepen the mystery. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: like that idea, don't know. I don't have time for that.
Speaker 1: I don't have time for deal accounts. I'm gonna hit
Speaker 1: the icon and go to the Instagram account. Okay, So
Speaker 1: help Jim out if we could. How many followers did
Speaker 1: you have when you report me? How many followers when
Speaker 1: he stole your account? For a thousand? If you guys,
Speaker 1: just come on help. If you don't have an Instagram account,
Speaker 1: make one. Follow Jim. Follow Jim at Serving Nut not
Speaker 1: serving nuts served, Yeah, served nuts served like Dear Served Nut,
Speaker 1: and follow the Wild Turkey Doc. And that's all you
Speaker 1: need to do. Yep, yep in my website deer nut
Speaker 1: dot com Dear d W R. N Ut and you
Speaker 1: can get Deer to the Southwest there and get Jim's
Speaker 1: new books. Yeah, and that'll be out probably January February,
Speaker 1: that Big Meal Deer and Black Tail Deer book. Did
Speaker 1: you follow him something? Oh? Yeah, I'm just looking at
Speaker 1: your kind of Now you have a picture of deer
Speaker 1: on ice floes. Yeah, using them to travel with three examples,
Speaker 1: that's insane. But did you see all the pictures ringing
Speaker 1: endorsement from the last one is the last one is
Speaker 1: Rudolph and Cornelia's had a nice flow. But there's one
Speaker 1: of a big white tail bucket looks like standing Yeah,
Speaker 1: bring it like Seth, like serving nut. Yeah, go to
Speaker 1: serving nut. Get get Jim back up and run and
Speaker 1: so they can come and shut his countdown again. And
Speaker 1: then you'll have to go with that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: You have to think of some other thing that means
Speaker 1: dear gun nut buck nut. I might get buck nut
Speaker 1: right now that Bill sell to Jim later? What do
Speaker 1: this his accouch shutdown for not learning his last all right,
Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger. Eric, can you say where you work? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Arizona Game at fish do they get mad when you
Speaker 1: come out on the shore. They like it because it's outreach.
Speaker 1: I think they're ambivalent. I mean, it's good information. That's
Speaker 1: not what I wanted to hear. It just they don't care.
Speaker 1: They do care. No, there are there are a lot
Speaker 1: of fans, of course, in the in the in the agency.
Speaker 1: I was I was at a sandwich shop in Fort
Speaker 1: Worth last week and sitting down at the table, and
Speaker 1: some guy came with me and said, are you Jim Heffelfinger, Like,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm near someone famous and introduced myself,
Speaker 1: shook my hand and he said, yeah, I'm a real
Speaker 1: fan of the Meat Eater and I really like when
Speaker 1: you're on there. I like your stuff, and I said
Speaker 1: he And then he said what are you doing in town?
Speaker 1: And so I thought he was another biologist at the
Speaker 1: meeting because that's usually who knows who I am. And
Speaker 1: he wasn't He just living for Worth? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: how did you know who I was randomly here in
Speaker 1: the sandwich shop? And he said, with a big name
Speaker 1: tag on the lanyard. That's great man. All right, So
Speaker 1: here's what happened. We're gonna end the show. We're gonna
Speaker 1: do trivia. Karin's gonna work with you to build up.
Speaker 1: As stuff comes to mind, You'll continue to send us
Speaker 1: what's on your mind. We'll make a big stack of it.
Speaker 1: And then there was enough stuff that's on your mind,
Speaker 1: you'll come back and we'll cover what's on your mind again.
Speaker 1: Sounds good? Oh, actually I have one more question. I
Speaker 1: should have put this before. Um. When I first met you,
Speaker 1: I just I knew you as like that hair hunter
Speaker 1: hair hunters you know, yeah jack jackrabbit, Mum, jack grabbit
Speaker 1: have like disposable you didn't have so many of them lose. Next,
Speaker 1: I had a Facebook page that was Jack Rabbit Jim,
Speaker 1: and Facebook shutting me down long time. They said they
Speaker 1: and it was all about jack rabbit hunting. And they
Speaker 1: said jack Rabbit Gym not your real name, and so
Speaker 1: you need to send us a photo. I D a
Speaker 1: government issue jack rabbit gym is like not and and
Speaker 1: so I and so I didn't have an obviously didn't
Speaker 1: have an idea with jack Rabbit Gym on it. So
Speaker 1: they shut it down. And I was telling my director
Speaker 1: or pass director um that story because he knows about
Speaker 1: the jack rabbit camp I used to have, and he says,
Speaker 1: I can I can fix that. I can get you
Speaker 1: a government issued idea. This is jack rabbit gym and
Speaker 1: my my Arizona game official. I d said jack Rabbit
Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger with my but it was too late. It
Speaker 1: was too late to say social media. Um, wow, that's hilarious.
Speaker 1: Go follow Jim. Question. The next year you said that
Speaker 1: the season and I think was closed because their numbers
Speaker 1: weren't crazy and not closed there, just their numbers were loose.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to see what what the state. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're coming back, but we've also had a horrible
Speaker 1: drought last year, and so we had this rabbit We
Speaker 1: had this rabbit virus that swept through it's New Mexico, Arizona,
Speaker 1: but then it went all the way up into somewhat
Speaker 1: into the Northwest and the Rocky Mountain States. Um, it
Speaker 1: really knocked him our cotton tail and blacktail jack rabbit,
Speaker 1: analope jack rabbit population down. And then the drought came
Speaker 1: after that, and so it was kind of a double whammy.
Speaker 1: So they're building their their populations back up. Um, the
Speaker 1: season not closed because what little hunting occurs isn't impacting
Speaker 1: the population. But I'd say they're just building back. You guys,
Speaker 1: we're going you guys are going easy yet because there
Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't worth the chase at the time. Well,
Speaker 1: we also I know a lot of people that jack
Speaker 1: rabbit hunt that said they were just laying off them
Speaker 1: for a while. And then we had this junior jack
Speaker 1: rabbit camp. We had every year, and we didn't have
Speaker 1: it two years ago because of COVID, and then last
Speaker 1: year they just decided not to have it just because
Speaker 1: of the population. Do you want a bird squirrels? M
Speaker 1: So here's the deal I got. I know we're trying
Speaker 1: to wrap up. Let me tell this real quick. There's
Speaker 1: the National squirrel is the International or National Squirrel cook
Speaker 1: Off National happens in Arkansas. Apparently we gotta kid we got.
Speaker 1: We're trying to work on this. They were gonna do
Speaker 1: it in Tennessee, but they got run out by the
Speaker 1: animal rights people. So Yanni's got Yann he's been working
Speaker 1: with the people. They got a whole venue. We want
Speaker 1: to have a giant blowout squirreld world. But I want
Speaker 1: to get the guy, the the guy that actually does
Speaker 1: it in Arkansas involved. We want to have the most
Speaker 1: hugest squirrel cook off blowout in Tennessee. I think that's
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson in Arkansas. I'm not positive play. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's because the Tennessee Boys said they've been reaching out
Speaker 1: to the Arkansas Boys, and the Arkansas Boys haven't been
Speaker 1: returning communications. No, Well, if they don't want to do it.
Speaker 1: They don't want to do it. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but um does a bird? Squirrels are big, then bring
Speaker 1: some a birds and end of the competition. That cooked there.
Speaker 1: They don't want to do it. I thought that they
Speaker 1: would run the whole program, the Arkansas boys. I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that previously already there's before we ever
Speaker 1: got involved, they Tennessee had tried to make communications with
Speaker 1: the people that have been running that one in Arkansas,
Speaker 1: and they've been having difficulties getting a hold of them.
Speaker 1: That's all. Don't figure it out. Yeah, if if we
Speaker 1: do it, you'll come up. Yeah, oh yeah, that would
Speaker 1: be awesome. You know, those kipap squirrels are black a birds,
Speaker 1: pretty cool. They look really neat. They've got reddish stripe
Speaker 1: on their back. They looked like their sides of cotton tails.
Speaker 1: I like to go down and hunt a couple. Do that.
Speaker 1: I'd like to do it. Did you know what? I
Speaker 1: just transferred all my old Garmen way points. I had
Speaker 1: to call some of the on X figured out because
Speaker 1: on that good that kind of stuff. I have bazillions
Speaker 1: of old way points from like an old GPS. Yeah,
Speaker 1: are around my Montana six hundred way back, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I wanted to get him onto on X,
Speaker 1: which is exceedingly easy to do, but it was like
Speaker 1: the most baffling. I was looking at it like mass
Speaker 1: tam forever to enter all these cordants. So I called
Speaker 1: it one on X, like no, just no, just do this,
Speaker 1: this this over the phone. I got it all loaded up.
Speaker 1: When I was going through them all, I got a
Speaker 1: lot of like I hit a lot of way points
Speaker 1: to say Abert. It was like Abert one, Abert two,
Speaker 1: Abert three down in Mats Just what's that down Mats No,
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. And it was I was walking around,
Speaker 1: hitting and making way points every time I saw Abert. Squirrel.
Speaker 1: So I'm sitting on hot intel now that I thought
Speaker 1: was just lost to whatever. But I know specific trees. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hung out with one of those pelts for your
Speaker 1: squirrel collection too, when we gave those the guy Zucker. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well we should get get one of those forms. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: squirrel cook off man. Now you know what, maybe you
Speaker 1: could do like a lecture on squirrel biology down there.
Speaker 1: You could do that would be interesting. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: so cool, man. But we should bring in our squirrel
Speaker 1: to ye. My office is right down the hall from his.
Speaker 1: Before he went to the University of Wyom and I saw.
Speaker 1: I knew him for more than ten years. One of
Speaker 1: my favorite people in the world. Oh he's awesome. He know,
Speaker 1: he's helped me out. Speaking of interesting vaculums, remember the
Speaker 1: squirrels baculum, Oh, barbed corkscrew, corkscrew. There's a dirty limerick
Speaker 1: about that that I'll not tell. Don't even don't tell
Speaker 1: the plush line, don't nothing. Remember this is family friendly.
Speaker 1: You know. There's actually some theories that some of those things,
Speaker 1: a vacuum like that might actually pull the sperm plug
Speaker 1: from the previous mail out we covered that. Oh did
Speaker 1: you well? Your body covered that? Yeah? Fast. He gave
Speaker 1: you a little shit as I remember. He's good. He
Speaker 1: was good. Where'd he go? He went the University Wyomen.
Speaker 1: He's the dean of the hob School, so he's over
Speaker 1: Monteth and not so much Coffin because he's U s
Speaker 1: g S. But Monteth is in the program, so he's
Speaker 1: gonna put all those guys on squirrel research. Al right,
Speaker 1: probably no, I want to all the squirrel migration corridors.
Speaker 1: John has done a ton of other research. You know,
Speaker 1: he's a squirrel guy, my son. I tell my son
Speaker 1: about him, and he says, so do they call him
Speaker 1: the nutty professor? All right, thanks for coming on, man, Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we'll see a squirrel cook off. Yeah, sure, World
Speaker 1: Squirrel cook Off.