1
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,760
Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

2
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,680
Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case underwear listening Hunt Me podcast.

3
00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by First, like creating proven

4
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

5
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: for every hunt First, like go farther, stay longer. He's

6
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:50,840
Speaker 1: a conservation. Jim Heffelfinger is back, the famous Jim Heffelfinger.

7
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:52,960
Speaker 1: I feel like you're gonna beat my ass and trivia,

8
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,000
Speaker 1: which kind of makes you wish you hadn't come. Yeah,

9
00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: I'd like to donate to Mealer Foundation. You already got

10
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: it figured out, because see I feel like you're already

11
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 1: gonna win anyway. And then Spencer's gonna throw you a bone. Yeah,

12
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 1: well he should. Everybody gets the ringer, don't. They just

13
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: don't like it. I don't know. When I play at

14
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,559
Speaker 1: home sometimes I really don't do very well, and those

15
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 1: bones don't seem to be automatic, and by any means

16
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:26,840
Speaker 1: they're not. So Yeah, Um, the Instagram came for you, Jim.

17
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,640
Speaker 1: They did shut me down, banished. I understand, how Like

18
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: I don't get it, and they don't call you and say, Jim,

19
00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: by god, we've had enough, there's nobody that makes those decisions.

20
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,560
Speaker 1: In my Instagram account. My old one that I had

21
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 1: built for years, which was Jim Dear, was just shut down.

22
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,840
Speaker 1: They just said the account's been disabled. No, you don't

23
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,240
Speaker 1: think it has to do with like the fact that

24
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,000
Speaker 1: you're not Jim to your tractors. Yeah, I don't think so,

25
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: like like like because yeah, but I mean, didn't you

26
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,200
Speaker 1: use that little icon? Yeah? I use the icon and

27
00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 1: photoshoped that to be a mule deer instead of a

28
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 1: white tailed But if you look on there, there's a

29
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other people that use that icon and

30
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,680
Speaker 1: everything else. So I don't I don't think that was it,

31
00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 1: and it was because you like to shoot pistols. I do.

32
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 1: I shoot pistols competitively, but I've been posting those pistol

33
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,600
Speaker 1: shooting videos for ten years, as have everybody I shoot

34
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,400
Speaker 1: competitively with. So it's really I think it's just like

35
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 1: a random a I bought some kind of something randomly

36
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,839
Speaker 1: was triggered. Well, have you tried to do the appeals? Yeah,

37
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,520
Speaker 1: I just have a certified account. I don't know what

38
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,119
Speaker 1: certified is. I don't either, but it's the thing I did.

39
00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,000
Speaker 1: I didn't have feel like if you have the little

40
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,359
Speaker 1: blue check mark next to your name, Yeah, I don't

41
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,560
Speaker 1: think so. I'm is there a point at which you

42
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 1: just get too big though, when they're not going to

43
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 1: shut you down? Like, is there? You could take the

44
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,600
Speaker 1: President United States for instance, you get shut down on

45
00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,079
Speaker 1: social media? So maybe no, maybe not? Yeah, I did

46
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,680
Speaker 1: send it a pie. Sure, Kardashian is no way, there's

47
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,840
Speaker 1: too bad. There's too bad. No. Yeah, you can get

48
00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 1: kicked off. You can, they'll kick you off. It depends

49
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 1: on your politics, don't get they don't kick off like

50
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,920
Speaker 1: super left wing people. Maybe they do. Does Bill Marv

51
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:11,600
Speaker 1: get kicked off Instagram? No? No clue, b huh you're

52
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,919
Speaker 1: not super left wing. No, you're right. But he's controversial.

53
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 1: He's controversial. He's like to have a list of famous

54
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: left wingers kicked off social media. There's guy be some

55
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, so that's too bad, man, So

56
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,200
Speaker 1: you had to start over again. I feel like you

57
00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: need to get in there and try to like figure

58
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 1: it out, man. I did for two months. For two months,

59
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,519
Speaker 1: and for the first month and a half, I sent

60
00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,880
Speaker 1: one of those appeals at least every other day, and

61
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 1: it just out ends the black hole, no response, no

62
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 1: response from from Instagram at all. So after about two months,

63
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,760
Speaker 1: I just shrugged my shoulders and started a new one.

64
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 1: Is it really that uh lifeless and soulless that know

65
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 1: that you can appeal that many times and no one's

66
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 1: ever going to just shoot you a note saying there's

67
00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 1: nothing that can be done, here's what you did wrong.

68
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought so, but yeah, apparently apparently like

69
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,040
Speaker 1: no response for like nobody, nobody is listening to, nobody's responding,

70
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,600
Speaker 1: and there's probably not like a phone number you can. Yeah,

71
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 1: like you get some customers if your account has been canceled,

72
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 1: press five and they have over a billion subscribers Instagram

73
00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,240
Speaker 1: does worldwide, So I mean they're not watching accounts. They're

74
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 1: not they're not probably not manually canceling accounts. There's probably

75
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,559
Speaker 1: some AI s, a artificial intelligence that's that's just getting

76
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,039
Speaker 1: triggered and shutting things down because there's made people that

77
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 1: are dup duplicates and businesses and stuff. I mean, you

78
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,839
Speaker 1: got like eight billion people. One of our camera guys,

79
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,320
Speaker 1: when you hear someone doing something totally insane, or someone

80
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: says like I wonder if anyone blank. His reply is, man,

81
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,280
Speaker 1: there's eight million people on this planet. Eight billion people

82
00:04:54,320 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 1: on this planet. Of course someone does that. Yeah. Yeah,

83
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 1: So the new accounts servant Nut, which is you got

84
00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 1: you gotta start from scratch now, Yeah, it's really exciting

85
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,560
Speaker 1: to put together these. Really, I don't think I'm gonna

86
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 1: follow serving Nut right now. I'm sitting here. You're already

87
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,800
Speaker 1: on Zuckerberg's radar, Man, I know, I know I'm on

88
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,360
Speaker 1: the list. Let's see. It's ce r v I D

89
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 1: and ut don't tell you know? Zuckerberg is building a

90
00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 1: development in town here. Really. I learned that from Kylie's

91
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: husband because I follow him on Instagram. What kind of development,

92
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,800
Speaker 1: housing development? I don't know. Yeah. So you know, I

93
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,599
Speaker 1: can't think of that dude without thinking of him in

94
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: the movie that movie, uh, Social Network, Like, I can't

95
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,440
Speaker 1: think of him without being that kid, the character. Okay,

96
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 1: here I am, I'm following you and then, um, but

97
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 1: you're already up to you, do you? You already up

98
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 1: to four or fifty four? Yeah? I know it? Four hundred?

99
00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,160
Speaker 1: That amazing? How many? How many did you have had?

100
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 1: About four thousand? So I wasn't a huge account you build? Yeah,

101
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,040
Speaker 1: you build some you you build some followers, and then

102
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 1: you just start over and then you put this really

103
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,760
Speaker 1: cool post out there, and and you you know, you

104
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,440
Speaker 1: got a hundred and two followers and two dogars. Do

105
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 1: everything I can to help you out. Oh your kids

106
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,680
Speaker 1: all good for the tickets? Oh excellent? Can you rest

107
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,560
Speaker 1: easy now? So are you just gonna keep posting like

108
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: you did before or you're gonna change things? Yeah? I

109
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,320
Speaker 1: know I've already already posted, already posted some shooting videos

110
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 1: right after I established account. And some said what do

111
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,200
Speaker 1: you do when you're gonna get banned again? And I said, well,

112
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:32,560
Speaker 1: I better try it out now when you have a

113
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 1: hundred followers than to build it up again that because

114
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,920
Speaker 1: everybody else does it. I mean everybody is a competitive

115
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 1: shooters posting videos of them shooting. And plus we don't know,

116
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: you don't know, because what about like Taylor Thorn, all

117
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 1: she does is poet. Let me look, is she still alive?

118
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,719
Speaker 1: And I know she's alive. I mean she's is she

119
00:06:53,839 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 1: like she's she's still on the Graham. But that's what

120
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,240
Speaker 1: Jim saying is that he doesn't we don't know what

121
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: canceled it. No, but I'm trying to know. Here she

122
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,840
Speaker 1: is shooting up a storm. What's that guy's name that

123
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 1: was at the Vortex shooting Ruben? But no, there was

124
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 1: another guy. It's like Josh, I forget his name. Oh yeah,

125
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: I was just watching his shooting videos the other day

126
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 1: instag because I shoot competitively and I have a lot

127
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 1: of friends that are shooters. You know my fee He's

128
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 1: gonna come on the show someday. Here he is shooting

129
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,239
Speaker 1: up a storm. Yeah, he posts a bunch about shoot

130
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you're maybe you're not good at shooting. Maybe

131
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: they maybe they got an AI that finds people who

132
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 1: aren't that good with a pistol, probably too slow. It's

133
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:46,800
Speaker 1: like inaccurate. Shut his account down. I guess you'd better

134
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 1: pistol behind my back. I hesitate to bring this up.

135
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: Jim Um, I called you dumb. Did you have one

136
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: last thing you wanted to say about hottest spell white

137
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 1: tailed deer? I do, but you know you you said

138
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: that I say stupid shot all the time, which I do.

139
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,440
Speaker 1: But no, no, no, no, I would have never have

140
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 1: said that, but that balanced. I think the previous podcaster

141
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:12,960
Speaker 1: where you said I was the smartest guy on the planet.

142
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 1: So I said about one thing. Maybe you say that

143
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: one thing too much. Well, now that you're stupid about

144
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 1: two things, I feel like you just got burned. You

145
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: put your hand in the fire and got burned. Your

146
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: hands back on the fire on Instagram. So there's like

147
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 1: one way I think being really smart and so've done

148
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,800
Speaker 1: things are not excluding mutually exclusively. The second way you're

149
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: dumb is this is you and Dirkin's like like white

150
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,120
Speaker 1: dot tailed dear thing. You you almost cleared it all

151
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,960
Speaker 1: up recently, and then right at the end you just

152
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 1: you botched it. Yeah, like like you realiz I'm not.

153
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: You feel as though I'm not giving your argument effective. Yeah,

154
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,880
Speaker 1: previously you weren't explaining the argument, and then you read

155
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,040
Speaker 1: my email and you got it like you got it

156
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 1: perfect because you're reading my email. And then right at

157
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 1: the end we rehash that's because I didn't read the email.

158
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 1: It's okay, Jim's gonna set the whole damn thing up.

159
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 1: But when you do, you better give my point. Good, No,

160
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,680
Speaker 1: you can do it. It would be more entertaining. Problem. Okay,

161
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,280
Speaker 1: how do you feel this is the I swear to

162
00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 1: God we will never talk about this again. How do

163
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,440
Speaker 1: you if you had a spell. Okay, the deer that

164
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,840
Speaker 1: lives in America, but not mule deer. Spell it for me?

165
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 1: Do you I T E t A I L e ed. Okay, okay,

166
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 1: that's a different Okay, sorry, So yeah, yeah, some people

167
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,240
Speaker 1: spell e D. You could just put T A I

168
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 1: l A well correct correct, but but but I know

169
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,840
Speaker 1: there's a hepple finger here and Dirk and they're like,

170
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 1: I acquit it to people who go V and thou.

171
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:04,400
Speaker 1: They feel that it's w H I T E dash

172
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 1: t A I L E D and like, sure, but

173
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 1: no one in their right mind is going to write that.

174
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,840
Speaker 1: And I was pointing out that every book I've ever written,

175
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 1: when I get it back from the copy editor, the

176
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 1: copy editor has gone in and turned them all into that,

177
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: and I then need to go back in and stat.

178
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: Let me give you a little book, right, and STAT

179
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 1: is when an editor makes like if, when an editor

180
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 1: makes a correction in your manuscript and you're like, no,

181
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 1: you're wrong, you write STAT. That stands for stop doing that,

182
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,840
Speaker 1: back off, back on. So the editor wanted to hyphenate

183
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 1: it because it's like it's sort of if it's like

184
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 1: the and thou, it's almost antiquated spelling, and and Dirk

185
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 1: and like once it's Dirk and what was the magazine?

186
00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,040
Speaker 1: Dirk And used to work for Deer and Deer Hunting.

187
00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,960
Speaker 1: He bought the first Megan the article I ever sold

188
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 1: Dirkin when he was the editor of Deer and Deer

189
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,719
Speaker 1: Honey in the nineties. Yeah, the long we've known each other.

190
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 1: That's back when they said, okay, and on the cover

191
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,400
Speaker 1: of that magazine, was it like on the white tail

192
00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,679
Speaker 1: rut the right way and they would write the hyphen no,

193
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,440
Speaker 1: well sometimes, but here here's the deal where it gets

194
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,880
Speaker 1: all mixed up. There's there's no um, it's not the thou.

195
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,920
Speaker 1: There's no kind of question about what the official name is.

196
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean, official name of that deer is white hyphen

197
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 1: tailed with an E D deer. I mean that's the

198
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 1: name of that animal. No changing it. Well, there's no

199
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 1: changing it. But but we always we shorten it and

200
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,120
Speaker 1: we say white tail white tails. That's fine. But when

201
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,560
Speaker 1: you say white tail deer, now you've just taken the

202
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,439
Speaker 1: two acceptable forms of that word and you smash them together.

203
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,960
Speaker 1: It's not even grammatically correct white tail deer. You gotta

204
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,080
Speaker 1: put the e d like when you trivia a couple

205
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,679
Speaker 1: of weeks ago, and you wrote Ivory build woodpecker. You

206
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,839
Speaker 1: hope you didn't have a hyphen a E D on that.

207
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,240
Speaker 1: Did you write? Ivy bill, Ivory bill woodpecker, I rebuild,

208
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,679
Speaker 1: And if you look at the names of the top

209
00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,679
Speaker 1: of my bills, I'll tell you some something that stuff

210
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:13,320
Speaker 1: that book about that go on. But but durkincent a

211
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 1: list of animals that have like a hyphen E D.

212
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 1: And it's pretty rare to find any animal that is

213
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,480
Speaker 1: just smashed together and doesn't have the hyphen the E D.

214
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,960
Speaker 1: So the correct word, the correct name of that animal

215
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,080
Speaker 1: is white hyphen tailed deer. But nobody wants to run

216
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 1: around saying white tailed deer, white tailed deer. And even

217
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,200
Speaker 1: when I write all the time, I mix it up

218
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 1: with white tails, white tail, white tailed deer with an

219
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: E D, and the hyphen would not correct. Is when

220
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 1: you hybridize those and you say white tail and then

221
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,520
Speaker 1: you add dear to the end of it. White tailed deer,

222
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 1: white tail deer, that's not correct. That's just someone hybrid

223
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,319
Speaker 1: of the two acceptable forms of it. So you say

224
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,679
Speaker 1: white tails, We're gonna hut white tails. Look at that

225
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,040
Speaker 1: white tail these are white tailed deer in a little

226
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 1: more formal setting. But you don't say white tail and

227
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,040
Speaker 1: then add deer to the end of it. Do you say?

228
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 1: Mooses means? Oh? Chris got a note here when I

229
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,679
Speaker 1: was when we were I passed along to were in

230
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,960
Speaker 1: Alaska hunting moves my inn reach. I passed along to Kylie.

231
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: I sent Carl a note that said, tell Karin that

232
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,199
Speaker 1: I had a dream that you fell from the sky

233
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,160
Speaker 1: and landed in my mom's yard with a compound fracture

234
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 1: in her left femur. You came out of the sky,

235
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,880
Speaker 1: hit a tree branch, and land in the yard of

236
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 1: the compound fraction left fem I wonder what that means.

237
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: And then weirdly, we then had to go do something

238
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,840
Speaker 1: or another, and I was very distracted by the bone

239
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 1: sticking out of her thigh, and you're very nonplused. That's

240
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,199
Speaker 1: does that mean I'm tough? I just found that hilarious,

241
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,600
Speaker 1: because that's that's what Steve sometimes uses in Reach for

242
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,199
Speaker 1: it to communicate right across your you just came out

243
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,079
Speaker 1: of nowhere, bamn, right into the ground in your mom's yard,

244
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,960
Speaker 1: my mom's yard, So watch your ass. I think we

245
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,320
Speaker 1: need to. This is actually a Savannah's idea that there'll

246
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,600
Speaker 1: be some kind of coffee table book or calendar something

247
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: with a compilation of all your random in reach message

248
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:17,360
Speaker 1: and reach messages would be hilarious. Um, maybe that'll be now.

249
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 1: It would be like the next calendar message. Your books

250
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,000
Speaker 1: back in print, Jim, Yeah, Deer of the Southwest, Yeah, yeah,

251
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 1: publish that. And that's desert meal deer Cow's whitetailed Deer

252
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 1: in the Southwest der folks interpret. Yeah, so it's been

253
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 1: out of print. Actually the first time I was on

254
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 1: the podcast here, I don't know how many copies were left,

255
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,120
Speaker 1: but shortly after that it just it was on the

256
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 1: out of print. Um did it get to? Where is

257
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 1: it so out of print that people sell them for

258
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: stupid amounts of money and no one wants to buy it.

259
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 1: I've got some screenshots of eight hundred dollars. Is the

260
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: rare books? Yeah? They have good books, you know, because

261
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,000
Speaker 1: it would be like someone well, yeah, because you'll see

262
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 1: it where there's an out of print book and the

263
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,760
Speaker 1: like a slight spike in demand, and then there's some

264
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: guys like I don't know, maybe someone needs it for

265
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: like some thing, and then all of a sudden it

266
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 1: shoots up and they're selling. And then and then you

267
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 1: go back the next day as someone made some more

268
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 1: and they're back to normal. But it's always like a

269
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 1: last gasp, like I don't know, you never know, maybe

270
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,400
Speaker 1: someone will give me a hairbox for this book. Yeah,

271
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: So I I shortly after I was on the podcast

272
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: the first time, I went and ordered some because I

273
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,440
Speaker 1: sell some of my website deernut dot com. They haven't

274
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,280
Speaker 1: banned that web, they have not banned that, and and

275
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 1: I had orders, I had standing orders, and so I

276
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 1: called the publisher to get some more and they said, well,

277
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 1: we're waiting for what we're out and and we're waiting

278
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 1: for more. And I said, were you waiting for more

279
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,920
Speaker 1: books from? Because they're the publisher, they're the ones that

280
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 1: have the store of the warehouse of them. And it

281
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 1: turns out it was out of print. And so that

282
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 1: was right when COVID started. And there's COVID and there's

283
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 1: some revolution in UM, changes in the personnel and Texas

284
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 1: A and M University Press. So it drug out for

285
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 1: three years, but just about two months ago it became

286
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 1: available and it's it's available everywhere. Awesome do you get

287
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: a your money off that a little bit? Yeah? I think, Um,

288
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 1: the first run, I think I calculated I got sixty

289
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 1: two cents in royalties for the for the book at

290
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 1: that time, sixty two copy. You know, you know what,

291
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 1: that's actually not that insane. It's not that Yeah. People

292
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: don't realize that. They think if you sell a book,

293
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, the author probably gets or so, but get

294
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 1: the tiny fraction. No, if you buy a paper back

295
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: and author might get a dollar. Yeah. Oh you know

296
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 1: what I was gonna mention about your thinking your account

297
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: getting suspended if you're reading, Um, it could be from

298
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 1: the it could be high up. Because I was reading

299
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 1: in the I can't hear if it was reported in

300
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal or the Times. I think it

301
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 1: was reported in the Journal that the the Biden administration

302
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 1: was actually had had a list of people that they

303
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 1: felt like people they felt were disseminating COVID disinformation, and

304
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,680
Speaker 1: the administration themselves were working with social media platforms on

305
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,199
Speaker 1: a hit list and even pointing out if they'd like

306
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 1: cancel from one, they'd be like, oh, yeah, but he's

307
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 1: still on this, so it could come from associated. Yeah,

308
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,680
Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing about that Instagram account, the

309
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,760
Speaker 1: original one. I'd never talked politics, I never talked controversy.

310
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 1: You know, that was my place for just really fun

311
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,520
Speaker 1: interesting deer stuff, you know, sometimes dad jokes, sometimes funny stuff.

312
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,720
Speaker 1: It was really benign, really vanilla and and interesting. So

313
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,159
Speaker 1: it's not like there was anything you never said. You know,

314
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,240
Speaker 1: if you want to cure COVID, get a copper is

315
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 1: it brass or copper? You gotta get a copper rod

316
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,359
Speaker 1: a copper Dowell and swirl each Nostril never said that's

317
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 1: a dirt told us no, I don't think I said

318
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: the word COVID on my account. Um, I suppressing. Why

319
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,520
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about John Coulter, John Johnson

320
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 1: trivia for you? Well, who's this buddy that? Yeah, who's

321
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 1: this buddy that got chopped all the pieces? Not far

322
00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 1: from here? You know they smeared those pieces on John Colter. Oh,

323
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 1: I don't know that story, Potts. They were Lewis and

324
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,399
Speaker 1: Clark alum, huh, I don't know that. But culture was

325
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: one of the lews and Clark expedition. He shot a

326
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 1: mule deer um and that mulder ended up when it

327
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 1: was described in the journals of the of the expedition

328
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 1: that end up to be the original description that found

329
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 1: its way in the scientific literature. For the very first

330
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 1: description of of mule deer in the West. There's a

331
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,440
Speaker 1: French guy named Rafinesque who named a whole bunch of

332
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 1: of animals, gave them scientific names, and he published in

333
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,959
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventeen, he published the first account of mulder

334
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,919
Speaker 1: and he based that on the the journals of Charles

335
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,919
Speaker 1: Lay and Charles Ray. Journal is famous. A lot of

336
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,159
Speaker 1: people have have published and talked about how Charles Ray

337
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 1: was the first one to describe mule deer. I've written

338
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: about it several times. Turned out I was full of

339
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 1: ship that time too, because the Charles Loray journal is

340
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: a complete fraud. Charles Larray never existed, um and I

341
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 1: read about this at some point in time. And so

342
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,399
Speaker 1: that Charles Lay journal they've traced actually Patrick Gass from

343
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: he was he was on the leuc and Clark expedition.

344
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 1: So the journal kept by Patrick Gass, you know, they

345
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 1: all kept different journals. Patrick Gass describes a mule there

346
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 1: that turned out to be the first description of mule there.

347
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: It was it was incorrectly folded into this fraudulent, completely

348
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: fraudulent and fabricated journal of charge Charles Ray and then

349
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 1: Charles Lay's journal was used to describe mulder by this

350
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: rafinesque guy into the scientific literature, and they trace that back.

351
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: It turns out this mule er that John Coulter shot

352
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,119
Speaker 1: and was was described in Patrick Gass's journal and published,

353
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 1: was actually the first description of mule here where they

354
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 1: started talking about it. Now, what like, what makes it

355
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: the first description? We were we recently had a Coronado Uh,

356
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 1: we recently had a Coronado expert on the show. And

357
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 1: no doubt, I haven't read everything from everybody on the

358
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 1: Coronado expedition, but they no one on the Coronado expedition

359
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 1: was like, oh and there's a deer. Yeah, that's true.

360
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 1: They weren't writing things like that, whereas losing Clark, I mean,

361
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 1: that was their purpose to go document all the natural things.

362
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 1: And so um, what little written word that exists from

363
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 1: the Coronado expedition, I don't even know what that is,

364
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: but I know there is some they weren't. They weren't

365
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 1: talking about types of deer, and and even if they

366
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: said dear, it would it wasn't a description of this Arizona.

367
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,120
Speaker 1: They both live in Tucsas. You need to go listen

368
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 1: to the You need to go listen to the finding

369
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: that just found the oldest gun in America in your state. Right,

370
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 1: I heard that whole podcast. Yeah it was good. What

371
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 1: do you do? Who Cornado is? Never paid any attention

372
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: to it? Well, you just listen to the podcast I did,

373
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 1: so you know, Now what was the question? What you

374
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: just said? I don't know anything about Coronado. Just listened

375
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 1: to about it, right, you said, other than the podcast? Yeah,

376
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just not a topic that I've duve

377
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 1: into and and read about at all. Um So, either

378
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 1: or they never, like like Lewis and Clark's account counts

379
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 1: as because they said it's yeah big, it's got this,

380
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: it's got this, it's got this. That counts as a

381
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: scientific explanation. Yes, it's a scientist has to take that

382
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 1: and then describe it into scientific journal and but they

383
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 1: have to base it on something that's uh, you know,

384
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 1: earlier journal. That what makes it the first description is

385
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: how accurate it was. It talks about the rope like

386
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 1: tale with a black tip. It talks about the fact

387
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: that they jump and they hop like goats, um, talks

388
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: about these long ears, talks about having more of a

389
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 1: grayer coat, and so all of those descriptions make it

390
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 1: um no question that they're talking about a mulder. And

391
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: that was the first time someone described it accurate. The

392
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: first white tale that was described was like one in Virginia,

393
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: actually with North Carolina, but everything on the East coast

394
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 1: was considered Virginia at that time. And it's funny because

395
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: they were Europeans, Europeans trying to describe these white tailed

396
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: deer which they hadn't seen before. And one of the

397
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: main parts of the description as they said that thelers

398
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 1: are backwards. And so if you think about a European

399
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: the road deer, they're going backwards. The red deer, they're

400
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: going backwards. And they came to North America and these

401
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: antlers are going forward. So they said their antlers are backward.

402
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: You know. They they never saw a deer where the

403
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: antlers swept forward. Everything was back. So that was one

404
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: of the descriptions of the head backwards antlers. Who was

405
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: it that wrote that description, Um, oh, it was eighteen

406
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: fifty one and it was I can't come up with it, yeah, right, right, right,

407
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: fifty one at the time. So what's your new deer

408
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 1: book then, Yeah, so we've been working, me and a

409
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: lot of people throughout the West, been working on a

410
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: big what will be the Bible of Mulder and blacktailed

411
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 1: deer in in North America. About forty one years ago

412
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: Charles Walmo put together a book called Milder and Blacktailed

413
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: Deer in North America UM with different people writing different chapters,

414
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: and that thing is is still used as a reference

415
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: for Melder information, but it's four decades old. And so

416
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: as a chair of the Melder Working Group, I'm in

417
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: touch with all of the West leading Melder people. And

418
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: so about four years ago we we embarked on a

419
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: a new book to create another Milder and Blacktail Deer

420
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: that was updated with all the latest information. So that

421
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: is that the publisher. Now it's it's in layout. That's

422
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: it's gonna be about five fifty pages, a hundred color photographs,

423
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: chapters eighty author's five fifty pages, a hundred color photos. Yeah,

424
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 1: published by CRCs. So there's some some mediator podcasts alone

425
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: here because Matt Kaufman did the Migration lad the Migration chapter,

426
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: Kevin Monteth who's been on the show led the nutrition chapter.

427
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: At our Nett who's been on the show, led a

428
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: habitat chapter. So that the cool thing is there's twenty

429
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: three chapters and each chapter was written by the international

430
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: leader of the national leader for that topic, I mean,

431
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: the expert for the topics. So this is a compendium

432
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: of all of the latest information written by the people

433
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: that are on black tails and black tailed melder In

434
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: fact seven chapter did you lead up there? Did you not?

435
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: Because you're doing that overall editing. I was the lead editor,

436
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: me and Paul Krautsman, who used to be a professor

437
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: at University Arizona was later a professor University of Montana

438
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: before retiring, and and I've known him for a long time,

439
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: so he and I teamed up. So I'm the lead

440
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: editor UM and then I wrote UM a good part

441
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: of chapter one, which is historical distribution taxonomy UM, where

442
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: we take the eleven meld deer subspecies and distill them

443
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: down to only five valid subspecies. So we pulled that

444
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: down at. Emily Latch was my co author. She's a

445
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: geneticist that I've been working with with decades UM doing

446
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: dear genetics, but we've got the Tiberonne Island melder, which

447
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: is a Mexican island melder, got the Cedros Island meld deer.

448
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: Those islands have been separated for ten thousand years, and

449
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: they're genetically and they're physically different. And then we've got

450
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: Sitka black tail and Clumbian black tail as different subspecies.

451
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: And then the fifth meal deer so species is continental meal.

452
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: Here everything in North America is the same subspecies because

453
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: there's no geographic divider between. There's no genetic differences that

454
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: you can really define. Physical differences that their tails change

455
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: as you go in different areas, but there's no physical

456
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: differences that you could really say these are different deer,

457
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: the different subspecies. What is up with why are Sitka

458
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: black tails seemingly so different in appearance then Colombia black tail.

459
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: They seem to have like a little white tailed deer

460
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: or sorry, a little white tailed deer. They look like

461
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: white tails laid up in them. Yeah, that's fascinating, and

462
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: there's white tailed. You can just taste the hyphen in there. White.

463
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: But to the Sitka, they've got these white tailed like tails.

464
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: They've got shorter metatarsal glands on their back. Legs closer

465
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: to um white tails, and they've got darker faces like

466
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: a white tail, which which makes it appear like they

467
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: have white eye rings um like a white tail, short,

468
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: smaller antlers. It's fascinating. I don't have an answer why

469
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: they look like white tails. They're not not because of hybridization.

470
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: I thought I remembered reading in uh, what's the old

471
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: timer's name? Canadian valerious Guys that I could be wrong,

472
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: but I thought there was a theory that when the

473
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: ice was moving south, the white tails kind of like

474
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: work the edge of that ice south across the you

475
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: know what would be the lower forty eight up the

476
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: west coast, and somehow yeah, those like yeah, not quite,

477
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: they weren't coming along the coast. But what he talked

478
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: about was we had white tails already in the east.

479
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: White Orticolius, the white tailed mulder genus has been in

480
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: North America for five million years. We've got fossils in

481
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: Florida five million years ago. So what he was saying,

482
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: my bookshelf, Yeah, that's right, gave me we had white

483
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: tails in the east, and then we had this differentiated

484
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: into kind of a western mule deer, black tailed deer, thing,

485
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: and then later glacial um glacial action separated the black

486
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: tails along the coast and then the mule deer in

487
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: the central part Geiss's theory about um like they met somewhere.

488
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 1: Geis The theory was that black tail males interbred with

489
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: white tailed fieldmales and created the mule there in my

490
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: chapter one. I discussed that a long time, and I

491
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: don't think it's valid be there's a lot of reason,

492
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: Like he had this kind of elaborate I can't what

493
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: do you call that? When you as a scientist, what

494
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: do you call what? He would do a theory monger.

495
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: He's a vow as a friend of mine, lifelong friend, um.

496
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: But he would kind of throw out some stuff and

497
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: he'd be like, well, how like okay, show me you're

498
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: you know, I want to help my kids with their homework,

499
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, and you kind of like show me your word.

500
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: Yeah right, They're like, what's that? Wasn't necessarily bad thing?

501
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: So it's like show me the work. His thing was

502
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: that you had did that. It went like this, you

503
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: had white tails and what's now the southeastern US million

504
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: three million years ago, four million years ago, at some

505
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: point in time, climatic conditions were such that they colonized

506
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: America coast to coast, and then in the southern portion, Yeah,

507
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: from from they made it. And then it got real

508
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: hot and dry in the middle, and so there became

509
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: a gap between the two, and then they had all

510
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: this separate time to evolve. And then it got real

511
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: nice weather again, and the white tails came back west.

512
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: These abandoned black tails came east. They had sex along

513
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: the rockies. And yeah, then there's the milder. Was he

514
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: the one? Was he the one that said they muled

515
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: there been around for ten thousand years, and I wouldn't

516
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: be surprised if they're gone in ten Yeah. He wrote

517
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: an article I think in Outdoor Life that talked about

518
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: the melder disappearing. Um, and he says that they are

519
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: a new species that arose in the place the scene,

520
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: and um. We spent a lot of time in that

521
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: chapter one because this information has been out there so

522
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: much and I haven't always agreed with it, and I did.

523
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: I sent Val the draft of my chapter to review.

524
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: Unfortunately didn't get to it before he died. He was

525
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: actually because I wanted his input on it, because I

526
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: was disagreeing with a lot of things. But we've been

527
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: friends a long time, and that's what scientists do. It's

528
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: okay to disagree. Unfortunately, I would have really liked to

529
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: have his comment. But with Vale's theories, the thing is

530
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: it's it's not necessarily a bad thing. He was a

531
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: thinker man. He thought outside the box all the time,

532
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: and he was throwing these theories out. In a lot

533
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: of cases, he threw a theory out without showing his

534
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: work just I think this is what happened, and people

535
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: followed up and did a master's a PhD on it

536
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: and either proved it right or proved it wrong. And

537
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: I remember him telling me one time that that someone

538
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: had done this work and they proved that one of

539
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: his theories was wrong, and he called it splendid work.

540
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: It was fantastic. Now we know he said that was

541
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: a theory of mine. Someone did a great job of

542
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: investigating it found out I was wrong, and he was

543
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: excited that someone we actually had that information. He was

544
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: that kind of gearing. So he threw a lot of

545
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: theories out, and some of those theories really helped people

546
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: think about these Some of these concepts and um in

547
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: relationships and someone were just just batch it crazy. That

548
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: picture that Muley back on the cover makes you want

549
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: to get that buck so bad. That's the Kia buck. Yeah,

550
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: as George and Ranco took that photo on the Kaibab,

551
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: so that it says here the last book like that

552
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: was published like this was forty one years ago. There's

553
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: a lot like with mule deer, especially like lots changed

554
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: for them, and and and blacktail deer and and actually

555
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: um Steve's brother Danny reviewed the chapter on blacktail deer

556
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: to one of the seven of the chapters. Of those

557
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: twenty three chapters are are a separate chapter on each

558
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: of these seven eco regions in North America. So we

559
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: divided the Coastal Rainforest as one ecoregion, the Great Plains

560
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: is one ecoregion, um, the California Chaparral is one eco region,

561
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: the the Colorado Plateau, and the South with the desert.

562
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: And so we have a chapter on each one of

563
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: those ecoregions written by those experts that that manage and

564
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: survey and hunt deer in in those areas, that have

565
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: been researching and managing the deer in those areas. So

566
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: so there's even these seven chapters just focusing on ecoregions. Um.

567
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: And there's one on the coastal rainforest with the black

568
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: tail deer there. So um, it's pretty excited. It's pretty exciting.

569
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: How are you, um, pessimistic about the future of mule deer, No,

570
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: not at all, not all. I think we just need

571
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: to focus on habitat and if we preserved some the

572
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: open places for them to live, um, they'll they'll be fine.

573
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: And I've written about the future of mule deer and um,

574
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: people love mual there too much. We're not gonna you know,

575
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: we're not gonna let anything bad happen. How important is

576
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: predator control of mule deer in your view? Not not

577
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: very important. Locally you can do something, but um, you

578
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: know the idea that we're gonna kill some predators and

579
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: it's just gonna air quotes help the deer out. Um.

580
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: You have to really intensively control predators in a fairly

581
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: localized area to to actually increase survival, either increased survival

582
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: of fauns or increased survival of adults. And you can

583
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: do it in a small area, but you can't do

584
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: it even on a game management unit size area. It

585
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: would take so much money and so much effort to

586
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: depress the predator population so much that you actually relax

587
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: the predation pressure and improve survival um of of deer.

588
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: And it's so expensive to do it in one game

589
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: management unit. I mean it my view, you you spend

590
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: those millions of dollars doing some long lasting habitat work

591
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: or some overpasses to preserve some migration corridors or something.

592
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: So it's really it can it can be beneficial in

593
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: a local area, um, but you're not gonna be able

594
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: to do it on a large scale area just as

595
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: a matter of deer management. So when we as hunters

596
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: are like walk around touting around on Instagram, Hey everybody

597
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: do your part, and someone kills a wolf for a

598
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: mountain lion, Yeah, it's not doing anything from a population standpoint,

599
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: And people say, you know, we killed this line and

600
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: so we did the deer population the favor. Not really,

601
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: I mean you're just not having that much. Matter of fact,

602
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: did you follow their lions come in there? Did you

603
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: follow that predator predator program that they were doing in

604
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: Colorado on the Rhan Plateau that did not That was

605
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: but that was like extremely specific in time and intensity. Yeah,

606
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: that's exactly what talk yeah, And it wasn't just like

607
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: doing it in January, so it was like focus on

608
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, And they did a long a long

609
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: term study Mark Early, and now there was a Mark

610
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: Early's the lead author on our predator chapter UM in

611
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: the book. He did a long term study in Idaho

612
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: where they controlled coyotes and lions in certain game management

613
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: units UM and and in the end in a focused

614
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: area kyote control and focused there you can can save

615
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: enough fall. And if you've got habitat, it's tied very

616
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: closely with habitat. In fact, my next article in the

617
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: Meelder Foundation magazine is on on Predators UM, and we

618
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: talked about how closely that's tied with the quality habitat,

619
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: because if you go in and you kill a bunch

620
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: of predators, you save a bunch of fawns. You absolutely

621
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: save a bunch of fawns in that area. If the

622
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 1: deer population is overcarring capacity, they're gonna die from something else,

623
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: some other causes. So the habitat has to be such

624
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: that it can hold a lot more dear so when

625
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: you save them from the jaws of predators, then then

626
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: they actually have a place to live and they've been

627
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: up food. So it's very closely tied with habitat quality

628
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: and caring. I hear every now and then speaking to

629
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: habitat people are like, well, I see deer all the

630
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: time in my little suburb neighborhood. Um, they seem to

631
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: be just fine. They're adapting there in the they just

632
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: live in the yards. Everything's fine. You don't need to

633
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: preserve wide open habitat. With my sister. My sister keeps

634
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: sending me videos of the two Melder books right outside

635
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: her window, and they lay in her front lawn in

636
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: the shade, and they eat out of the bird feeder. Um,

637
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: and they grow out and they graze in the in

638
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the yard. So that's one little snapshot of their year

639
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: round habitat needs. And so you know they need they

640
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: need to winter range free from snow and with some

641
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: four during the winter. Um. They need some really good

642
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: nutritious summer range. And and then they might wance in

643
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: a whilcome into a neighborhood and eat a little bit

644
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: and hang out. But that that's not providing the habit

645
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: their habitat needs for the whole year or even really

646
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: that month. It's just a it's just a stop at

647
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: dairy Queen as all it is. We had a text message.

648
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,959
Speaker 1: Who found this text message? Oh that was that someone

649
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: sent that to me. Instagram thing and Instagram messes of

650
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: Brody they're called d M. Yeah. I'm in an argument

651
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: this from someone who says the broidy this read it Brody.

652
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm in an argument with a friend who is claiming

653
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: that of game animals and anyway are tagged with trackers. Well,

654
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: I know this number is unbelievably wrong. I'm having a

655
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: hard time finding numbers for tracked game animal any insight

656
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: that I just replied, like, there's twenty five million deer

657
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: and states do the math. But but yeah, I I mean,

658
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: you probably know better than anyone. But I would guess

659
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: it's way less than one percent. Helicopter level it is.

660
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: Utah has more radio collared ungulus than any other state

661
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: right now. They're putting out like five GPS colors a

662
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: year as part of their herd monitoring their statewide and

663
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: it's really an incredible effort. They after no one's even

664
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: close their survival rates, um cause specific mortality, what's killing them?

665
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: And then overall how are they surviving? And movements, migration

666
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: patterns and movements and habitat use um. They're they're getting

667
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: some fantastic information, for example, talking about predators. They have

668
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of units that from all of those

669
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: radio colors, they know that those animals are limited by

670
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: habitat because they're taking fat levels and nutrition information and

671
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: they're they're malnourished. That you know, they know these animals

672
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: are limited by habitat. They've got another unit. The animals

673
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: are fat, they're doing really well, they've got really good nutrition,

674
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: and still the adult female survival is really low, and

675
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: most of them are getting killed by mountain lions. So

676
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: here they actually have the information where all these populations

677
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: are limited by habitat and predator control is not gonna

678
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: help anything. In this unit right here, they're doing really

679
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: well habitat and nutrition wise, and predators are killing snot

680
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: a out of them. And so if you have that

681
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: kind of information, you can go to that game management

682
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: unit then and and up the mountain lion quota let

683
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: people kill twice as many mountain lions in that area

684
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: and try to get that dear population to recover. So

685
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: that's the benefit of that kind of information. But they

686
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: have about twelve they have about twelve hundred meal deer

687
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: right now, radio collared with GPS colors in the state

688
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: of Utah. Their populations about three hundred thousand meal deer.

689
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: That's less than half a one percent of of the

690
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: of the population color. So it sounds like someone's frustrated

691
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: they saw a big buck with the collar, yeah, or

692
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: they're worried about the black helicopters finding them when they're

693
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: poaching something. I don't know. I thought that all aren't

694
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: all birds now tracking us? Or drones or something? What

695
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: was that? What was that hashtag that was going around? Well, yeah,

696
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: I posted that on my old Instagram account. It was

697
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: a poster that said birds are drones. Wake up, the

698
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: government's watching us. Birds aren't real. It said birds aren't real,

699
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: and I think they're the website. I think there's a

700
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: big movement in a website that's called birds Aren't Real.

701
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: What'd you know that? The first spend a waging with

702
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: time on conspiracy ship. But did you know that, um

703
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: like the whole flat the earth flat? Things started ke

704
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: It was like a guy just made a guy was

705
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 1: like making a point and it started out as a joke,

706
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: but it caught on. I didn't know that like the

707
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: flat earth folks, the new kind of flat earth folks.

708
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: It started out as a dude like goofing on people

709
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: like that, but then his goof caught on and he

710
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: created a movement. Yeah, Like there's a great YouTube video

711
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: about how Steve you wonder wasn't blind would be like, uh,

712
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: it would be like that. But also it becomes like

713
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: a big movement. You know, they say that the earth

714
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: can't be flatter. Cats would have pushed everything off it

715
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 1: by now. The I want to talk about the word

716
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: of the day, antler genesis, and I'm looking at a

717
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: thing that describes antler growth more closely resembles bone cancer

718
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: growth than regular bone growth. Right yeah, antler growth, I

719
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: mean that's the growth of bone. It's a growth of nerves.

720
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: You think about when you injure a nerve, how how

721
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: long it takes to heal that nerve. Here we have

722
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: antlers that are growing in the course of a couple

723
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: of months, and these bones are growing a couple of feet.

724
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: Nerves are growing a couple of feet. That skins growing

725
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: so fast, so that bone growth, which you can be

726
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: up to an inch a day in some species, think

727
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: about that an inch a day. That's that's incredible. And

728
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: so the bone growth is so fast. Antler growth of

729
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: that bone material is actually more rapid than than bone

730
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: cancer growth. And so there's people doing research with with

731
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: the deer family. To be able to grow bone that

732
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: fast and then to shut it down and then to

733
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: have it stop and then then shed the velvet and

734
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: and calcify that bone, they've got to have some physiological

735
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: or chemical mechanism to stop that runaway bone growth of

736
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: the antlers. They've got to have some regulation of this

737
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: bone growth. So people are studying that um in relation

738
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: to to bone cancer and saying, well, if they're able

739
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: to shut down that that crazy bone growth, maybe we

740
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: can tap into that and find a way to shut

741
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: down cancerous bone growth um and regulate it in that way.

742
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: And so when you look at captive deer, they've surveyed

743
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: people that have deer in captivity about how many died

744
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: of can how many deer head cancer because they're in

745
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: captivity and they get sick, they take them in and

746
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: they check them out, and the deer family seems to

747
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: be five times less likely to get cancer. So it

748
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: seems like they've got some kind of mechanism to control

749
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: this tumor growth or bone growth. UM. So that that

750
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: that's pretty exciting if that can be tapped into and

751
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: and um, maybe we could do something with cancer growth, regulating, slowing,

752
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: stopping the growth of cancer cells. Do you know when uh,

753
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: I'll see about it. There days we're watching some uh

754
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: we're watching moose thrashing a lot of brush. We're seeing

755
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: a lot of bulls that got little bits of velvet

756
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: dry it on their antlers. Yet, um, if a buck

757
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: or a bowl or whatever never thrashed brush would all

758
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: that velvet to stick there, now it would come out.

759
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: It loosens from that antler. And you see pictures sometimes

760
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: of of antler's big milder or an elk and it's

761
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: falling off. It's starting to slough off of that. And

762
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 1: even because you know they haven't been thrashing at brush,

763
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: because it's so loose, it would just it would have

764
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: been gone. But you can see it just loosen and

765
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: and start falling off. What about cactus bucks? Why are

766
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: they holding? Why fall That's a hormonal issue. And there's

767
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different things that you thought Seth

768
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: just new hearts man. I thought I thought Seth maybe

769
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: stumped him. He's like, well, yeah, what about like Kelson's

770
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: shot a few years ago that was and that it

771
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: was all intact, like not even trying. I think I

772
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: sent you the article. I wrote an article in Melder

773
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: Foundation magazine, Cactus Books, and and it's a it's a

774
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: hormonal issue, but it's really complicated. So people are frustrated

775
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: when they say, why is that buck seal van or

776
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: what's causing that? And there's there's a thing called the

777
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: crypt orchid buck, which is a buck that has his

778
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: testes descend um into the scrow them, but they stay

779
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,959
Speaker 1: like the size of a p They're just they're they're

780
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: just super small. Um, those are hype. I'm sorry. Those

781
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: are hypogonado bucks. Hypogonado just means really small, really small

782
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: gonads in the in the scrowed them. But then the

783
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: um the crypt orchid bucks don't have their tests descend

784
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: into the scrow them. They stay in the body cavity,

785
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: usually encased in fat there and and those conditions can

786
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: cause disruptions on the testosterone that that animal gets because

787
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: the shed velvet you need that peak and testosterone as

788
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: you lead up to the rut, and so it's that

789
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: surgeon testosterone that dries a velvet and it strips it off.

790
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: And so if the tests are still in the abdominal cavity,

791
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: or if they're too small and not producing testosterone, you

792
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: just lack that that tystosterone to shed that. But it

793
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: can be more complicated than that, because you can have

794
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: antler does which are invalvet and people call cactus bucks,

795
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 1: and they're actually does that have had a tumor around

796
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 1: the ovary which disrupted destrogen production, um or other things

797
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: in the in the hypothalamous gland which can disrupt the

798
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: production and distribution of of hormones. There's also been cases

799
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: where animals, because sometimes you get like if you have

800
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: an individual animal, you've got some individual malformation, some individual

801
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: problem with that animal. Sometimes you get a population where

802
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: like half of the bucks are still in velvet in November. Now,

803
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: something's going on um in that population and and nobody's

804
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: been able to nail that down. The leading theory is

805
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: that some plants produce phytoestrogens, like plant based estrogens, and

806
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: into the certain in a certain uh season, you might

807
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 1: have a certain rainfall pattern or temperature pattern, which makes

808
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of those plants just flourish, and the

809
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: deer eating a lot of them and they're just eating

810
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: a lot of estrogen is disrupting the flow of testosterone

811
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: in there, and so all of those different things can happen.

812
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: And unless you get an animal in you get a

813
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: blood sample to look at testosterone levels. Um, you're able

814
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: to look at the testes, the condition of the testes,

815
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: and look at the the antlers. There's also the receptors.

816
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: The testosterone receptors in velvet might malfunction and they might

817
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 1: have a lot of testosterone, but the velvet receptors aren't

818
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: detecting it. So there's a whole bunch of really complex

819
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: things and you can't really get to the bottom of

820
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: it without a really intensive necropsy with a physiologist and

821
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: a chemist. And what do you see antler does that

822
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 1: are viable? Yes, yeah, there's The last white Tail book

823
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: actually had a picture of an antler dough with a

824
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: fallen sucklinger. So they can reproduce, and it depends what

825
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: causes that injury to the injury to the skull on

826
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: a dough might actually um cause an antler growth to form.

827
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: They've done that experimentally. What about like surviving like e

828
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: h D. I've heard that being a thing that causes Yeah,

829
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: not not antler does, but yeah, that's definitely thing. Um.

830
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: There's a veterinarian Dr Fox from I Believe Utah wrote

831
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: a really good paper about um a case of e

832
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: h D and and e h D is episode of

833
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: hemorrhagic disease and it causes its hemorrhaging and it will

834
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: cause hemorrhaging in the body and the nose and the

835
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: eyes and anus and everything, but also can cause hemorrhaging

836
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: in the test testicles. And so if it's hemorrhaging and swollen,

837
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: it interferes with that production of testosterone and then it

838
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: interferes with the antler cycle. So they her team of

839
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: Wildlife that's documented this case of e h D in

840
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: the population causing a whole bunch of cactus bucks from

841
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: disrupting that hormonal isn't a sign of that like the

842
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: the hooves slough off. Yeah, one sign of episode out

843
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: of cameragic disease is lines or cracks in the hooves

844
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: and and it runs it's not lengthwise from the tip

845
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: to the fur, but it's across the hoof and it's

846
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: what it is is a stress line. It's when they

847
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: get sick. At the time they get sick because those

848
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: hooves are constantly growing like fingernails, So at the time

849
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: that they get sick, that stops growing because they're really sick.

850
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: Just like a big horn cheap get those annual rings

851
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: every year during rut because that horn cheet stops growing

852
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: and then when it starts growing again, it leaves that

853
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: stress line there. And it's the same thing with the

854
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: h D hooves, and there'll be a stress line. Yeah.

855
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 1: I think with Kelsey's buck, remember right, the hooves were

856
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: basically it looked like they were falling off on that one,

857
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: and then that week we saw probably half a dozen

858
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: different bucks in velmot Still. Yeah, so when you've got

859
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: especially when you have evidence like on the hooves like that,

860
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: or if you've had some animals die earlier in the

861
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: fall from h D, you know, then it's indication. It's

862
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: not something like the phyto estrogens I was talking about. Yeah, Hey,

863
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: why do people use a little follow up on that too?

864
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: Just um, but does any any of that what causes

865
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: a buck to be a shirgar buck? Yeah, that was

866
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: a guy I think we may even as it was

867
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: a geys thing. It was a guys thing. Yeah, Yeah,

868
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: even talked about it last time you were on. We

869
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: could have um, I don't remember, but yeah, shirgar bucks

870
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: are those bucks that maybe mature mu So you're saying

871
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: you're defining it as it's a thing, or you're just saying,

872
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: this is theory that was laid out. Yeah, I'm explaining.

873
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: I'm explaining about guys' theory. Yeah, because I don't. He

874
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: spent his PhD in Bath National Park observing mulder that

875
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: apparently we're pretty tamed, so he could observe them a

876
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: close range, and from those observations he wrote a lot

877
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: about um about mulder breeding. But his theory was that

878
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: there's some sugar bucks and they shirre they and he

879
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: calls it that because they shirked their responsive ability to

880
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: breathe that year. It's a great work and they he said,

881
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: they just opt out of rut. They gained a lot

882
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: of fat. They don't burn their fat because they're not

883
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: running dough. They could just just stand around and the

884
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: time and and and bide their time. And hopefully his

885
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: theory was at some point then they're so big and

886
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: so fat and so powerful they come down the mountain.

887
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: They're like, I'll take your boys, I'll take them all

888
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,479
Speaker 1: on hunts for Yeah, um, I don't. I don't know

889
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: of any evidence of any other evidence of that other

890
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: than his stories. Yeah did he just kicks it and

891
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: I do all the pre rut He was saying that

892
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: it would go on for multiple years and then one

893
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: year it's like, oh yeah, not just a season. No,

894
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: he would go grow to be four or five years

895
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: old and shirk all those seasons was up on the

896
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: day of that. It would be a cumulative effect that

897
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: at five years he's like, now, boys, nobody's messing all

898
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: other Like, holy shit, yeah he's been gaining shirking out there.

899
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: So it was like a lifetime play. And the only

900
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: way that would work from an evolutionary standpoint if on

901
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: year five or whatever, he was able to to father

902
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of offspring. I mean, that would be

903
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: the only advantage I do. We did talk of this.

904
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 1: I remember you making the you're making an astute observation

905
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: that if that's your reproductive strategy, you have a high

906
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: degree of cockiness that you're not gonna die in year two,

907
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: year three, year four. You better be nocturnal. Yeah, yeah,

908
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,879
Speaker 1: you gotta have a good place to shirk. What why

909
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: do people use UM? I don't know how to ask questions?

910
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: Why does it? Why do people use blue tongue and

911
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: e h D kind of synonymously? But they're not the same, right, Yeah,

912
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 1: they're not. They're not the same thing, but they're they're

913
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: very close. They're both hemorrhagic disease. They both cause kind

914
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 1: of the same symptoms, but they are very much different things.

915
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: There's two forms of h D e h D one

916
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 1: and two, and then blue tongue. I don't remember. There's

917
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: like seven different types of blue tongue, and they're the

918
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: virologists can tell them apart when they do like phr

919
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: genetic analysis UM. So they're definitely different things that e

920
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: h D is is usually more of a deer cattle thing.

921
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: Blue tongue tends to be more prong horn goats, sheep

922
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: kind of thing. For some reason, give me the life

923
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: cycle of that disease. It's spread by aculoquoits vera pennis

924
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: it's a it's a gnat basically a noseum is what

925
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: spreads that and so you'll so it's you've got to

926
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: have some moisture in order to spread that disease. But

927
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: it's a virus that's just spread by the bites of

928
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: those gnats, and so he's got to bite a deer

929
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: then bite another deer. Yeah right. Why is it that,

930
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: like in a place like Montana here where you have

931
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: places where there's mule deer and white tail like overlapping

932
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,919
Speaker 1: in the same habitat, Why is it that it hits

933
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: white tails so much harder and mule deer seem to

934
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: not be as affected by it. I don't know the

935
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: species difference, but there's definitely a multi year protection once

936
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: once animals get e h D and if they survive,

937
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: and most animals do survive, they've got antibodies for that

938
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: for that virus and when it comes. That's why it

939
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: usually doesn't hit like every year. It'll it would be

940
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: bad one year, and then it won't hit for a

941
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: couple of years because even if it's in the environment,

942
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: those animals have high end bodies and they fight it off.

943
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: Um they had they had some capsive deer in Mississippi

944
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: and some capsive deer in in Michigan. And it's it's

945
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: something that's mostly has been it's moving North definitely, but

946
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: it has been a southern uh kind of disease in

947
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: the in the warmer climates. And they brought some Michigan

948
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: deer down into the pens with the Mississippi deer. In

949
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: the Michigan deer just all died because they had no

950
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: exposure to they're very susceptible to it, and whereas the

951
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: whereas the Mississippi deer had some antibodies and had some

952
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: exposure to it. And so it's that there's definitely some

953
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: of that protection. Um. I and are some diseases that

954
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: it is more of a white tail thing and not

955
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: so much immediate Yeah, like up on the Milk River,

956
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: like I don't know the last time e h D

957
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: hit like a crush like the white tails last year.

958
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: Old there were last year from what ranchers were saying,

959
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: the build there were basically un effected. Yeah, And and

960
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: that's a known thing, um But I don't know why.

961
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just species are different species are

962
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: susceptible to different things, like different um, different dog breeds

963
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: are more or less susceptible to rattlesnake bites and things

964
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: like that. They're just does that have anything to do

965
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: with the amount of moisture you get in a year.

966
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a bad year, a good year. Yeah,

967
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 1: it's super dry because we I co authored a scientific

968
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: paper like twenty five years ago when we documented for

969
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 1: the first time in Arizona, so in an arid climates

970
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: where there isn't a lot of water for those no sums,

971
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: a little gnats to reproduce, which is the vector. It

972
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: won't spread animal to animal. It's got to be insect bites.

973
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a bad insect year. Yeah, it's gotta

974
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: be bad. There's a lot of no sums this year

975
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,919
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yep, definitely. And we and they found

976
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: out that the one that some of them in the

977
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: Southwest can actually reproduce in the moisture of like cactus,

978
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: broken cactus. That's all the moisture they need to reproduce.

979
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,240
Speaker 1: So that's been fun. But but definitely some moisture around

980
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: where you've got a lot of gnats that year. Now, Okay,

981
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: it's gonna get a little complicated. I think I know

982
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: the answer to this, but I wanna make sure I

983
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: know the answer to this. Why do when when dear

984
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: get e h D, why do they all turn up

985
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: land and rivers and ponds and creeks. Yeah, I think

986
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: they're water tanks. They're byremic. They're just like you know,

987
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: like when you've got the flu, you want to drink

988
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: a lot of water. They just want to drink a

989
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: lot when they when they get their temperature comes up

990
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: and they've got that virus and they're sick, they just

991
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 1: naturally head to water to drink or to cool off

992
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 1: and they usually die like late summer early fall. Yeah,

993
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: it's definitely a late summer thing that that's the first

994
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: thing that makes you suspicious that maybe it's an e

995
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 1: h D thing there by water in late summer. Now,

996
00:53:54,960 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: last year, I think it was last year Nebraska. Let

997
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: me know when it starts. Bringing a bell i for

998
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: you guys. Last year in some portion of Nebraska, maybe

999
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: it's two years ago, they were buying back dear tags.

1000
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: I think that happened in the Dakotas to maybe North North.

1001
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: They're they're buying back deer tags and some of them

1002
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: and there's different people department people talking about the cause.

1003
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: They were attributing it to the incredible dryness. But but

1004
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: here's the catch. It was congregating dear more around water.

1005
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: Do you buy that it could be? I don't. I

1006
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: don't know the details of that North Dakota incident. To

1007
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: that degree. You've got to have the vectors, you've got

1008
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: to have the insects to do that. Concentrated around water

1009
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: would put them all together, like feeding deer in the

1010
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: CWD area or whatever. Definitely you've got disease spread much

1011
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: more than that. But I don't know if they had

1012
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: like a wet spring with a whole bunch of gnats

1013
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: all over the place and then it got dried through

1014
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: the summer and they were concentrated. I don't know that

1015
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 1: kind of kind of details. What might have happened. Hey,

1016
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: what's a nude mouse model? Yes, well, it's like the

1017
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: naked um, naked mole rat, the hairless cat let. Let

1018
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: me read the article title Development of a nude mouse

1019
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: model for the study of ant loo genesis, Mechanism of

1020
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: tissue interactions and ossification pathway. Yeah, they basically bred some

1021
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: naked rats, some naked mice for studies for in in

1022
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 1: in the lab so that they didn't have all that

1023
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: fur on there and they could do skin grafting studies

1024
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: and things like that. They would have this nude mouse,

1025
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: and so the model part of it is just they

1026
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: use this nude mouse as a model to do all

1027
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: kinds of different research and have found it apparently have

1028
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: found it pretty useful. But they we were talking about

1029
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: the um and there's when a when a fall and

1030
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: a buckfhone is born. It has what's called an antler

1031
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: periosteum um underneath the skin of the forehead and it's

1032
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: not attached. It's it's a tissue not attached to the

1033
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: skull and it's not really attached to the skin initially,

1034
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: just floats just in between there and then eventually it's

1035
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 1: insert that into Yoni's head, you could and he would

1036
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: grow antlers. Because they haven't done it with humans, but

1037
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: they this nude mouse model paper. They took some of

1038
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: that antler pereostium, which is a stem cells and stem

1039
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: cells or cells that can develop into anything organs or

1040
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: skin or bone or anything. And so they took some

1041
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: of those the antler pereostium material, grafted it under the

1042
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: skin of the forehead of these nude mice and they

1043
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: grew little antler buds on top of their their heads.

1044
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: And they've taken that antler pereostium and even grafted onto

1045
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: a leg of a deer and it grew a spike

1046
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: on its leg bone, on the side of the leg bone,

1047
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: and so they can grab that people shape testing out

1048
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:54,439
Speaker 1: shampoo on him. Little buggers, but like that, Yeah, and

1049
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: then it's like rogue taxidermy and the and then that

1050
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: least secure bone cancer and then everybody I thought they

1051
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: just I thought it was just like it was like

1052
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: part of the Texas. But those like they will grow

1053
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: one for you out of his butt. And when they

1054
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: do it to a deer that antlers still on the

1055
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: legs still reacts to the whole the annual hormonal cycle,

1056
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: and the antlers actually shed. Antlers are shed because it's

1057
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 1: still feeding all of the same hormones out of the

1058
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: blood system. That's wild and so they've been able to

1059
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: transplocate that. And they've also taken the stem cells from

1060
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: the antler periosteum. Tuny Leah researcher in china Um has

1061
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: cloned to adult red deer just from the cells from

1062
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: an antler periostum and about eight deer some other deer species.

1063
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: I don't love their roos deer. Can you send me that.

1064
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: Can you get me? Can you send me in Will

1065
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: the picture of the pink mouse with the antlers put

1066
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: it on Instagram? You want. We're talking about going at

1067
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: stephen or Nell and will show you an antlers. Yeah,

1068
00:57:57,880 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: pink mouse with a big ball bunet's head, you know,

1069
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: and that was from the quarter inch adler. So they've

1070
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: taken those. Yeah at the vase. The vase is big. Yeah, say,

1071
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: I mean they've cloned whole red deer just from the

1072
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: cells of the antler periostume. Man, what Yeah, I guess

1073
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: if it's like if it I guess if you've got

1074
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: an eyeball toward cancer, or you think about if you've

1075
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: got an endangered species and there you've got five left

1076
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: and they're ready to blink out. If you could clone

1077
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: those not ideal, but it's better than losing them completely. Yeah. Well,

1078
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I'm just talking about like making mice

1079
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: have antlers. Yeah right, all right. You know in CWD research,

1080
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: they have what's called servitized mice and they have some

1081
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: SERVA genes inserted into the genome of the mouse and

1082
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: then they can study with mice with their their fast

1083
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: generation time. You know, they're reproducing all the time. You

1084
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: can get ten generations in a year or two. And

1085
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: so those mice have deer jeans inserted in them and

1086
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: they can study deer jeans that are that are relevant

1087
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: to CWD research. So they can they can have all

1088
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: these mice instead of having deer and waiting to get

1089
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: ten years old and do research on the genetics dear,

1090
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: dear jeans. But in mice, they're called serviantized mice. And

1091
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: I was in the lab in Denver once and I

1092
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: asked the director did they get and I started raising

1093
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: my hands like little antlers. They said no, no no, no,

1094
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: they don't get antlers. Recently, you and I have been

1095
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: swapping photos a two headed deer. It started out with

1096
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,919
Speaker 1: a two headed spike YEP in Mexico, and you said,

1097
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: don't do anything with this right, but we can release

1098
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: it now. At the beginning the picture, it came to

1099
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: a friend of mine and then come to me and

1100
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: I asked if we could post it, and he said, well,

1101
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: let's wait a second, but I've now got the go

1102
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,919
Speaker 1: ahead we can. We can post that. And I don't

1103
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 1: have any additional information that was killed, any better photos

1104
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: of it. I don't that's the only that's the only

1105
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 1: photos tell the story of this, dear. So it's a

1106
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: it's a year obviously year laying it's a spike. There's

1107
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: a picture of it laying there, bloody tongues hanging out.

1108
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: It was harvested by someone u in in the Mexican

1109
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: state of Guerrero, which is like Acapulco, is kind of

1110
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: up the coast in southwestern Mexico. Um in the mountains

1111
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: of pet that land, and the picture came to a

1112
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: friend of mine, uh and apparently all of the locals

1113
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: were pretty freaked out just for superstitious reasons about this

1114
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: two headed deer. I mean it was it was um.

1115
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: People were pretty worried about it because it looks so

1116
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: strange and if the one photo we have it looks legit,

1117
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, you never know these things. I'm always a

1118
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 1: little guarded um about that. But we've had two headed

1119
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: fawns documented years on my instagram from Jim sent this

1120
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 1: to me on my Instagram. I have photos X rays

1121
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: of a two headed fawn. Yeah. But the thing that

1122
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: blew me away about the little spike as they get

1123
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: actually lived right, and dude, I wish I had video

1124
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: of it, like could he eat with both of its

1125
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: heads that one just kind of hang out. That's why

1126
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: a little part of me is guarded. You know that

1127
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: it's a it's a hoax. But I've looked at the

1128
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: picture and and if you have a fawn that's two headed,

1129
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: it's only one more year. It would only have to

1130
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 1: live a year for that thing to be a spike

1131
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: and to get shot. And it would depend on what's

1132
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: going on inside. With these what's called conjoined twins, where

1133
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: they're just twins that are joined and they share body parts.

1134
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: It depends what's going on inside. Every every individual is different.

1135
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: And that two headed phone that you posted that did

1136
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: not have two complete digestive tracks when they did the

1137
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: knee cropsy on it, the right head had a complete

1138
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: digestive track, the left head the digestive track was intermittent

1139
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: and was blind. Came to a blind end, and in

1140
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: at least two places it's esophagus didn't fuse in with

1141
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: the main line. That he wouldn't have been able to

1142
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: eat right and then the and then back by the

1143
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: wrectum somewhere there was another blind stop. And so it

1144
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: depends with the spike. If it had two complete digestive tracks.

1145
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: It's conceivable it could live live one year and get shot.

1146
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: Um as a spike. What what kind of deer? Was it?

1147
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: Just that white tailed deer? Yeah, the the spike was

1148
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: white tailed deer in the Yeah, that's right. It might

1149
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: have been one of the other Mexican Highlands subspecies, but

1150
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: none of those have been studied. All of those are

1151
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 1: just kind of smaller deer in Mexico. So tell about

1152
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: this one we do know is in fact like totally legit, right.

1153
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: The fawn, the faun, Yeah, was it found dead. It

1154
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 1: was found dead in two thousands sixteen in in um

1155
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: was it Michigan or Minnesota? Minnesota? Um got mushroom hunter

1156
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: was out and he found this fall and it was

1157
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,439
Speaker 1: in perfect condition. That wasn't decomposing. It was dead um

1158
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: and it looked like it had been cleaned off by

1159
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: the mother. But they did a knee cropsy. They did

1160
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: a fantastic job. Luke Cornicelli who was a big game

1161
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: leader in Minnesota, and and Gino D'Angelo was a University

1162
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: of Georgia professor, and they did X rays, They did

1163
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: a complete knee cropsy to look at it. One thing

1164
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: they did was they they put the lungs in water,

1165
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 1: and the lung sunk, which means they've never had air

1166
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: in them. That's the way you can tell if it's

1167
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: still born us. So they so it never had taken

1168
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 1: a breath, so it was still born, but it seemed

1169
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: to be cleaned off, so they felt like it was

1170
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: still born. The mother cleaned it and then abandoned it,

1171
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: and this guy must have found it right after that

1172
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 1: because it was in in pristine condition. I was just

1173
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: watching a movie about that. Um, what was that famous

1174
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: operation they did in World War two where they they

1175
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: threw a guy in the ocean. They threw an officer

1176
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: in the fake officer in the ocean, but they had

1177
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: to make up a whole background on him, and he

1178
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: had and he was carrying like letters, fake letters, and

1179
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: it's what led the So it's what led the Nazis

1180
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: to believe that the ants that the Sicily landing was

1181
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 1: going to be in Greece. Yeah, I remember that they

1182
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: put fake documents that he'd wash and they made him

1183
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 1: a whole fake pass. They made a girlfriend talk about

1184
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: they took a corpse and and it had They took

1185
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: a corpse and just dumped it off summary and um,

1186
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: and they made up like this thing with a person

1187
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 1: with a past. They had an actual girlfriend with the

1188
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: past to pull one over on the nuts and it worked.

1189
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 1: But they had a hell of a time. Um. I

1190
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: guess for a long time they needed a body and

1191
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: they were afraid that someone would be this person didn't

1192
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 1: die in the water, and I always and they didn't

1193
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: really get into it. But I wonder if that's what

1194
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Yeah, I'm certainly there's forensic ways to

1195
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: tell whether they drowned or roun like something about like

1196
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: what the condition of the lungs would be or something.

1197
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 1: Did they determine why this thing like didn't take a breath,

1198
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: like why it didn't you know? And when they when

1199
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 1: they look at the discontinuous um digestive track, you know,

1200
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: there's probably just all kinds of things um wrong with it.

1201
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: There's been two other white tailed deer fawns, two headed fawns, documented,

1202
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: but this is the first one that's been documented to

1203
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: have been born even still born. The rest were in

1204
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: fetuses where they didn't need crops. He's on pregnant females

1205
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: and then they ran into these two headed fawns inside

1206
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: the let's start Baculum, bacula, baculus. Okay, hit me. So

1207
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: I was looking. I was looking for some information for Spencer,

1208
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 1: and I think it's for an upcoming trivial question. So

1209
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: I won't one of details. But I ran into this paper.

1210
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: But I ran into this paper. That's all I needed

1211
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: to hear. Right, believe what I just do? Some read no,

1212
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 1: believe me what I What I just said isn't gonna

1213
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: be a hint for whatever is coming up. But I

1214
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: started Spencer three duzies for when I'm not here. They're

1215
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: killing me. I want to ask you, guys, if you

1216
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: know I'm so bad, I'm not gonna well. I was

1217
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 1: reading this paper and had a whole bunch of different things,

1218
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: and that one thing it had was um was extra

1219
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: skeleton bones like bones and I aren't attached to the skeleton.

1220
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: Had a whole bunch of science on Bacula. Thought about

1221
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: that it's a bone unattached to the skeleton, just like,

1222
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: can't rouse have these bones that support the pouch? They do?

1223
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: They do. They support the pouch. And the males have

1224
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: them too, which obviously don't support the pouch because male

1225
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: kangaroos don't have a pouch, but they's part of the

1226
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 1: pelvic girdle and it's not attached. It's just another example

1227
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: of one of these shoulders not attached. Yeah, I know

1228
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 1: that that's that's true. Oh yeah, pretty damn good. I

1229
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: mean with muscles. Yeah, you're right now, once you start

1230
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: cutting it, it's not right, right. Yeah. Okay, So there's

1231
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 1: a whole paper on these the extra extra bones actually

1232
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: had antlers in there and and um and cheap horns

1233
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: in there too. But I was reading about these bacula

1234
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: and was surprised. Which is what was the question that

1235
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 1: Spencer asked? Yeah, I forgot that one. So so I'm

1236
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: reading the paper vaculum, and I run into the fact

1237
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: that females have um, a companion to the baculum, which

1238
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: is actually a clearteresst bone, is what it is. All

1239
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 1: the species that have vaculums the female. Yeah, not but

1240
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: almost all of those species. And you don't find it

1241
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 1: in other speech. She's if they don't have a vaculum um,

1242
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 1: then then they're not gonna have And the female black

1243
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,959
Speaker 1: take a black bear, for instance, a female black bear

1244
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: has a floating clitoral bacula, genital bone and it's called

1245
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: a barbell um b a U bl like. So let's

1246
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: say a bore black beard like whatever five six inch long? Yeah,

1247
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: how what size would that female bone? Being much smaller

1248
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: and and there they don't look just like it, they're

1249
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: they're completely different, um in shape as you'd imagine how

1250
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: big you say, um, the you haven't he was looking

1251
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 1: at some No, I don't know. It'd be interesting. I

1252
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: didn't even know about it strong enough if you were,

1253
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, cleaning that bear butcher that you probably wouldn't

1254
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: even notice. No, you'd have to look for it. You

1255
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: have to go in there and certainly look for it,

1256
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: because like even like a Walworth's vaculum is is like

1257
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 1: eighteen inches long, and the female Um, I've seen pictures

1258
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: of both, isn't I thought you can use those as

1259
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 1: a walking stick, just about can. No, it's like a thing.

1260
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: Walce Walas has the largest vacuum in relation to body length,

1261
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: like eighteen percent of its body length, so like one

1262
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: fifth of its body length is vaculum. Yeah. I think

1263
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: people used to make little walking sticks that they're like

1264
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: little miniature baseball get bats you get at the at

1265
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: the ball game, but for short. No, it would be short,

1266
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: Danny DeVito add but it's like, but they you know, vaculum,

1267
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 1: they're found in a lot of carnivores, they're founded bears,

1268
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: found in rodents Um primates bats. Bat vaculum is about

1269
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 1: zero point one five millimeters. A tenth of a millimeter

1270
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: is a bat vaculum. Had them and then and then

1271
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: they talked about the ball bellum, the female version of it.

1272
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: Of almost all of these, probably eighty percent of the

1273
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: species that have vaculums, the females have a ball bellum too,

1274
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,679
Speaker 1: so it comes hand in hand. I have never even

1275
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 1: heard it. So a bunch of research on that is like,

1276
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 1: well why would you have a bone um for the

1277
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: female genital you And they think it's just something that

1278
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: came along in evolution, like male nipples. I mean two

1279
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 1: sexes having something and it's really only functional in one

1280
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 1: of the sexes. So it's probably something that just came

1281
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 1: along in evolution with that, and it's more variable to

1282
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: the female ball bellum. Even in some species that have it,

1283
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: you may have some individual females that don't have it

1284
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 1: and some that do have it, like it's it's not

1285
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 1: functional and so it's it's real variable now, but we

1286
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 1: know for a fact that it's not functional. Yeah, I mean, well,

1287
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:37,759
Speaker 1: I don't think you can never say that, but nobody's

1288
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: been able to. There's a whole bunch of different um theories,

1289
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: even the vaculum theories about what what purpose that serves?

1290
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 1: And there's a whole bunch of different theories, and and

1291
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 1: the scientists will will tell you throw up their hands

1292
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 1: and we're not really sure, um what what purposes? There's

1293
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 1: a couple obvious ones, but um, there's a lot of

1294
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 1: theories that have come across on that. If anyone out

1295
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 1: there collects the what do you call it, a taxidermist

1296
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 1: or anyone just starting and send them to us, and

1297
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: maybe I'll make some jewelry the next the next auction house. Yeah.

1298
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 1: And and so there's there's a lot of variability in

1299
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 1: in um animals that have it, all of those like

1300
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: the bear family, the raccoon family, UM, the a lot

1301
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 1: of carnivores um. There's a lot of exceptions in there

1302
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: of species like primates are one that have vaculums. Humans

1303
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,839
Speaker 1: obviously are are an exception to that. But there's exceptions

1304
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,879
Speaker 1: in all those categories of certain species that don't actually

1305
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 1: have a vaculum. M just just species that are exceptions

1306
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: to that. Uh, we've been we we've been talking a

1307
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 1: lot about UM lead in wildlife. UM. You had written

1308
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 1: a piece for our website about lead and wildlife. Yep, yep,

1309
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 1: give me the give me the quick and dirty where

1310
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: you add on it. So the reason the reason I

1311
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 1: wrote that piece is there's just there's a lot of

1312
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: talk you read about lead and wild life, and you

1313
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: seem to get the same old things. But there's some

1314
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:10,679
Speaker 1: other things that I think aren't being talked about. Mostly

1315
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,839
Speaker 1: all the nuance people are happy to glom onto these

1316
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: the bumper sticker sayings or just generalities like like having

1317
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 1: lead in your vendicine is obviously bad for human health

1318
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 1: UM and and people talk about like lead using lead

1319
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: ammunition is um toxic to wildlife. Well, my piece was,

1320
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 1: let's focus on what the real issue is. The real

1321
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: issue isn't mammals, reptiles, amphibians with lead ammunition. The real

1322
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 1: issue with birds that are that are consuming mostly that

1323
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 1: are consuming um meat, or birds that will pick up

1324
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: lead pellets as grit um. Both both of those ways.

1325
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: But birds are very susceptible to to lead poisoning. So

1326
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 1: let's focus on what the issue is. The issue is

1327
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 1: lead ingestion by birds. That's what the issue is. And

1328
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: and it's not just generally leading exposure because I hear

1329
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 1: people saying, you know, they talk about lead exposure being bad.

1330
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 1: Let's be specific. It's ingestion of lead by those birds.

1331
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: And then let's focus on where it is a problem

1332
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 1: and if we need to make some management changes in

1333
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 1: a local area or local valley. State and provincial and

1334
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:20,879
Speaker 1: tribal game and fish agencies are in the position to

1335
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 1: to change regulations if if it if it's deemed a problem.

1336
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 1: But nationwide bands, statewide bands about lead exposure of wildlife,

1337
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 1: so we need to we need to ban lead or

1338
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:36,759
Speaker 1: or implement regulations. When you look at the science banning

1339
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 1: lead or or advocating um that everybody switched to non

1340
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 1: lead bullets and ammunition is not very well supported from

1341
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: a conservation standpoint, population um level conservation is not very

1342
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: well supported from a human health standpoint. Metallic lead is

1343
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: very different than um organic lead compounds, which is what's

1344
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:01,439
Speaker 1: in lead paint and lead gasoline, and and and clutch

1345
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: um clutch pads and break pads. Those those that's a

1346
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: very different kind of lead that can poison people very easily.

1347
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: Consuming a number eight lead pellet once every week is

1348
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: not going to elevate your blood levels. You've got to

1349
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 1: consume metallic lead almost daily. And that's what the that's

1350
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 1: what the human medical research shows before your blood levels

1351
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: are elevated to the point where it's the CDC safe levels.

1352
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 1: This might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but

1353
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: what would you say if I told you that seth

1354
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 1: ate so much tuna that he got mercury poisoning. Apparently

1355
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 1: that's possible because I eat a lot of sushi, and

1356
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 1: I've also I've often wondered about that you did get that? Didn'to? You?

1357
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: Do you have mercury levels? I didn't actually get my

1358
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: levels check, but I was I had symptoms of He

1359
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: came back with a lot of tune and ate at

1360
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: all one fell swoop. I eat tuna. I eat sushi

1361
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 1: enough that I kind of think about that. Well, yes,

1362
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: part partially that in Louisiana, eat and kobea and just

1363
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 1: I would a fish. In a month's time, at least

1364
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: fifty of my meals were fish, big red snapper. And

1365
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:23,760
Speaker 1: what were the symptoms my hands were going numb um

1366
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 1: like I was having weird memory loss. But this is

1367
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: the thing. See, I would have thought I would have

1368
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 1: rolled my eyes like that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. However,

1369
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: I really I had read a piece recently. There's this

1370
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 1: guy that like never ate fish. There's a there's a

1371
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: he got pulled off a cruise ship. He never ate fish.

1372
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 1: He's on a cruise ship that has like a sushi

1373
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 1: deal and just camped out on it with like developed

1374
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 1: mrket like a it's a temporary thing. You get better,

1375
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: you stop eating, you get better. He developed like a

1376
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:55,599
Speaker 1: like a like a temporary mercury poisoning. But it stays

1377
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: in your system, doesn't it. No, eventually, where do we

1378
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: sure about that? Well, I mean, I'm sure you have

1379
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:05,479
Speaker 1: some we're talking about enough to liken you dee in

1380
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 1: the dirt like like it did set. I was looking

1381
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 1: at that. I was looking at the recommended that, uh,

1382
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 1: like the consumption recommendations for just for like Kane Ferry

1383
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:20,480
Speaker 1: local Lake here, and they say five servings of walleye

1384
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 1: per month is what they don't they recommend like no

1385
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:27,839
Speaker 1: more than that, and the servings eight ounces of fish definitely,

1386
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,640
Speaker 1: Like I was eating eight ounces of fish, Like I

1387
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: was eating way more than that a night. Is that

1388
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 1: an issue with big plagic fish though, these little lakes

1389
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: sometimes gets and minds going into I was when I

1390
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:42,600
Speaker 1: was doing research, it said that Kobe is one of

1391
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 1: the highest, like one of the fish has the highest

1392
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 1: mercury levels. And it's an issue with big plagic fatty

1393
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: are like the living pretty long time, their bioaccumulating big

1394
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:01,439
Speaker 1: fish and it's like industrial it's industrial. Um, what do

1395
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: you call like shipping the air a flute? What's what

1396
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking for? Industrial fluent that comes down on the

1397
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 1: ocean surface and big fish that and that they're big

1398
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 1: enough that they're eating their bioaccumulating from older fish. Yeah,

1399
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: it gets more. Think about a marlin. Marlin will eat

1400
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 1: Mahia gets more fish eat a great white shrik, You're

1401
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 1: probably in trouble. One of my favorite fish writers, he

1402
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 1: like does these great books. His name is Vick Dunaway.

1403
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 1: I got a bunch of his books. He does, like

1404
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,439
Speaker 1: these books that are um, if you're going fishing somewhere,

1405
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:42,799
Speaker 1: let's say you're going on vacation to the Gulf coast,

1406
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 1: you get Vick Dunaway's like sport fish of the Gulf

1407
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:50,760
Speaker 1: Coast and it's um, great picture of the fish. What's

1408
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:52,560
Speaker 1: up with it? So if you catch fish like the

1409
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: hell's that, you flip through Vic Dunaway and find your

1410
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 1: fish and he always he has He's really great, like

1411
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 1: very concise food quality assessments which are like spot on

1412
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: and very concise. And his one for great white shark

1413
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:10,720
Speaker 1: is don't even ask how did you put two and

1414
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 1: two together? Uh? You were getting weird symptoms and then yeah,

1415
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: well I was just I was just eating a lot

1416
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,400
Speaker 1: of fish, and I was like, um, I've always thought

1417
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 1: about mercur was psychosomatic? You thought about it before you

1418
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 1: got symptoms. I had two symptoms first, and then I

1419
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: was like, you got to thinking and then got symptoms,

1420
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: and you tell me right now he had liver cancer

1421
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 1: due in five minutes. My livered hurt, you know. I mean,

1422
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:43,759
Speaker 1: it just wasn't that um. And I mentioned it to Kelsey.

1423
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: I was like, I've kind of been having like weird uh,

1424
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 1: like my hands are going numb um, and yeah, she goes, yeah,

1425
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm having the same thing. WHOA So the Morris household man, Well,

1426
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: I mean the one week. I eat fish every single

1427
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 1: night for dinner. We did. We eat a lot of

1428
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 1: fish too. Well, you gotta eat it when it's fresh, right,

1429
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:09,639
Speaker 1: It's like that's one of those things that doesn't last

1430
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 1: in the freezer forever. Yeah, but it's Yeah. I eat

1431
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:14,599
Speaker 1: a lot of fish too, and I feed my kids

1432
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,519
Speaker 1: a lot of fish. But we punctuated. Not. I don't

1433
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 1: punctuate it because of mercury. I just punctuated because I

1434
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 1: don't know, like whatever. Yeah, well usually I do too.

1435
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:26,680
Speaker 1: I just I'm like on a low red meat here.

1436
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:30,719
Speaker 1: So there's some I can help you out with that. Wow,

1437
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 1: it's I'll be good. Yeah, it would be it'd be

1438
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 1: cool to test some of that stuff the next time

1439
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: you get some. That would be great. Many Maybe you

1440
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:45,680
Speaker 1: can buy a really expensive machine that Greg Fons has

1441
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 1: had some test that I believe. I think he's done

1442
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 1: there somehow or another. Hey, let me ask you this

1443
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 1: where I want to cover this some more detail when

1444
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:55,679
Speaker 1: I got my story straight. But there's some legislation coming up, um,

1445
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,600
Speaker 1: some federal legislation coming up that I'm not I'm a

1446
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:00,759
Speaker 1: little hazy on details, so I want to tiptoe around

1447
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:05,240
Speaker 1: it a little bit. Having to do with limiting the

1448
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: ability of federal land management agencies two restrict lead shot

1449
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 1: and land ammunition on lands under their purview. Wasn't there?

1450
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 1: I thought there was just something about wildlife refugees like

1451
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 1: a big bank, So that's that's what That's what I thought. Well, No,

1452
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: it would be like limiting the ability in the future

1453
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: that that some national forest can't at the federal level

1454
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 1: say hey, even those the states handling wildlife management, we're

1455
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 1: gonna come in and say that just because no lad

1456
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 1: ammunition on our national forest, like limiting their ability and

1457
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 1: making it be that it has your chiefs certain like

1458
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 1: it has to be that that that the lead has

1459
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: to be linked to a population as the primary cause

1460
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: of a population decline and not done frivolously. Do you

1461
01:19:58,280 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: got any comment on that or is it a little

1462
01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: or to tell I don't know about limiting the ability

1463
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 1: of agencies to do that. There is UM a federal

1464
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: registered notice now about some refugees. They're being open to hunting,

1465
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 1: but that comes with the caveat of of no lead

1466
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 1: and so that's open for comment right now, and and

1467
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:18,719
Speaker 1: their justification for that UM is not only not compelling,

1468
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 1: but there isn't much of a justification. They just have

1469
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:25,120
Speaker 1: general statements about um lead and health and wildlife and

1470
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: doing the right thing and good conservation, so they don't

1471
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 1: they don't justify why lead couldn't be used in those

1472
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 1: particular cases. But as far as limiting federal agencies ability,

1473
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 1: I just wanted to be based on science, and it

1474
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 1: often isn't. So if if there's, uh, if you can

1475
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:43,719
Speaker 1: demonstrate some particular problem with using lead AMMO in that spot,

1476
01:20:44,040 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, let's regulate it. But state, state, and provincial

1477
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,760
Speaker 1: and tribal agencies, that's what they do. They have an

1478
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: issue that that impacts conservation and and they make some

1479
01:20:53,240 --> 01:20:56,200
Speaker 1: changes to to address that. And my meat eat piece

1480
01:20:56,520 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: did had really four um four topics that often don't

1481
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 1: get talked about, and and one is what species are

1482
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 1: actually actually affected, and I mentioned that. The other thing

1483
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 1: is that the idea of population level effects. So for

1484
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 1: a long time me and other people have said, hey,

1485
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:14,679
Speaker 1: there's no population level effects, so there so we don't

1486
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:16,920
Speaker 1: need to regulate it. The truth is there probably is

1487
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:19,360
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of population level effects with golden eagles

1488
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: and with bald eagles, um and and and other animals

1489
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 1: we're just not monitoring them and studying them with such

1490
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 1: intensity that we would be able to detect a population

1491
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,799
Speaker 1: level effect. But other than condors, condors is a big issue.

1492
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 1: But other than condors, I don't see any population level

1493
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 1: effects that are significant enough that would drive me to

1494
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 1: want to make some wide sweeping changes and what what

1495
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 1: ammal people use? And so I think we have to

1496
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:44,800
Speaker 1: be careful in saying there's no population level effects, because

1497
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 1: there is, They're just small and in some cases we

1498
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 1: haven't detected them. Um So, so I don't say that

1499
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 1: any more population level effects. I talk more in terms

1500
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:58,720
Speaker 1: of is using lead ammunition such an issue to the

1501
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 1: conservation of that speech sheets that we need to make

1502
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 1: some changes and and and I don't find any compelling

1503
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 1: arguments for um for species to that we would need

1504
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 1: to change. What do you personally shoot when you're hunting

1505
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,320
Speaker 1: solid copper? Last twelve years, all of our rifles and

1506
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 1: I have two pistols, the ten millimeter and a four

1507
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 1: sixt year rolland that I've built up to be hunting pistols,

1508
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,000
Speaker 1: and it's all copper, solid copper ammunition. And I've done that.

1509
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:25,599
Speaker 1: I did that a long time ago. It started when

1510
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 1: my kids had junior hunts on the Kaibab and Arizona

1511
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: Game of Fish department gave us two boxes of premium

1512
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,679
Speaker 1: copper Hammo um. So I have forty rounds of AMMO

1513
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 1: just free every time the kids got drawn. And then

1514
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 1: you could also get a box of fifty bullets if

1515
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:42,000
Speaker 1: you reload, which I do. And so I was getting

1516
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 1: some of this free copper amos, started using it and

1517
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 1: really liked it. It It shoots really clean, it's accurate, it

1518
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,639
Speaker 1: puts animals down, it's effective at that range, and I

1519
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 1: like the wound channel is so clean. You know, lead

1520
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 1: bullet will blow up and create a lot of blood

1521
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: shot um meat and there's a lot of They've shown

1522
01:22:57,840 --> 01:22:59,600
Speaker 1: some of those lead dust and those lead fragments to

1523
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 1: go of inches from the wound channel. I mean it does.

1524
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 1: That lead does spread into a lot of meat. And

1525
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 1: I like the fact that a copper bullet will punch

1526
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: a hole in there and you lose very little meat. Dude, listen,

1527
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 1: we so I was just hunting. We're just hunting moose,

1528
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 1: and we shot a bull three wind meg clay shot

1529
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: a bull three wind mag I'll stand it right next

1530
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:26,760
Speaker 1: to him nineteen yards hunter eighty grain bullet I a

1531
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 1: three meg shooting Federal trophy copper. It went through the

1532
01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: like ball, it went through the ball of the shoulder, Okay,

1533
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 1: cut that bone clean in half, went through both lungs,

1534
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 1: lodged against the high down the other side, and it

1535
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 1: was a absolutely perfect mushroom. Mushroom. Man. Yeah, that's that's amazing.

1536
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 1: Anything I'm making through that in a He's got things

1537
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 1: in his pocket right now and absolutely perfect mushroom at

1538
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 1: nineteen Like, is that only shot you shooting more times? No?

1539
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 1: He put no one right next to it, but didn't

1540
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:06,280
Speaker 1: need to. None of the pedals sheared off or anything.

1541
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 1: That's crazy. But one thing I want to say about

1542
01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:12,400
Speaker 1: the whole lead issue, and I address it at the

1543
01:24:12,479 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 1: end of of my article online, is that even if

1544
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 1: if it's not a compelling issue too for everybody's which

1545
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 1: a copper for wide scale conservation issues or human health issues,

1546
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 1: we better be paying attention to hunter image because when

1547
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: they hold up a bald eagle, the symbol of freedom,

1548
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 1: and the thing is sick or dying because it adjusted

1549
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:34,800
Speaker 1: a lead bullet, and they tell the whole audience that

1550
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,240
Speaker 1: you know, hunters are still using lead bullets, and if

1551
01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:39,759
Speaker 1: they stop using lead bullets, we won't have this issue anymore.

1552
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 1: There's no doubt. It makes us look really bad, and

1553
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: we should be paying attention to that because of the

1554
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:50,439
Speaker 1: public doesn't hunt, and that of the public still supports legal,

1555
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 1: regulated hunting to the tune of like percent support for hunting.

1556
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: So why why is there five percent of us that

1557
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:01,320
Speaker 1: hunt and the other ninety five percent of the population

1558
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:03,880
Speaker 1: supports us to such a high degree. It's because they

1559
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 1: know that hunting is a positive force for conservation. It

1560
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:10,439
Speaker 1: does a lot of really good things for wild things

1561
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 1: in wild places, and so anything we've got like that

1562
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:15,960
Speaker 1: that gives us a black eye, we'd better pay attention

1563
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 1: to and we better be careful of because we can't

1564
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 1: lose that support and we're gonna lose everything. So I

1565
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 1: I advocate people if they can start moving towards using

1566
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 1: non lead bullets, but mostly for the purpose of of

1567
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:33,719
Speaker 1: of hunter um hunter image and just maintaining public support

1568
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,439
Speaker 1: for what we do. And that's the main thing that

1569
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 1: that I think that's the best argument for hunters. When

1570
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 1: you start telling them that you're killing, you know, some

1571
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:45,160
Speaker 1: small percentage of raptor populations, it's just not very compelling

1572
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 1: to get people a switch. But we better pay attention

1573
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 1: to how we look to the that don't hunt. I

1574
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:58,679
Speaker 1: shoot copper, and I'm deeply uneasy with widespread ammunition bands

1575
01:25:59,439 --> 01:26:02,840
Speaker 1: that likes that aren't targeted. Now, I like to ask

1576
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:06,280
Speaker 1: myself what what would I have been saying back when

1577
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: they did it for waterfowl? Yeah, no, in waterfall, there's

1578
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:12,640
Speaker 1: a small percentage of ducks that were actually dying. That

1579
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:15,559
Speaker 1: was not a population level of fact that that was done.

1580
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 1: It was lead pellets for for waterfowl was banned because

1581
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 1: bald eagles were still endangered at that time, and there

1582
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:26,599
Speaker 1: were lawsuits about killing bald eagles that were eating ducks

1583
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:28,519
Speaker 1: that had lead, and so bald eagles were getting poisoned

1584
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,040
Speaker 1: by lead bald eagles around the Endangered Species Act. And

1585
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:33,320
Speaker 1: that was the dry sweat drove. That's what drove the

1586
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 1: waterfowl lead band. Not impact, not population impacts to waterfall.

1587
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 1: What's have been to wrong? I've been drong A is

1588
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:43,720
Speaker 1: a bear cat. It's a ververve. It it's a it's

1589
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:46,360
Speaker 1: a kind of a goofy mammal that lives in Southeast

1590
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:50,839
Speaker 1: Asia and in the forest, and they have a particular smell.

1591
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:56,600
Speaker 1: They smell like popcorn. Um, and that that popcorn or

1592
01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: But this isn't the guy that's that might be linked

1593
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:02,479
Speaker 1: to No, no, no no, this isn't the raccoon looking thing

1594
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 1: that might be linked to COVID. No, that's a civit cat, right,

1595
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 1: it's the thing that a pangolin. Oh that's not no, no, no,

1596
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:15,439
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you're right. Penguin. I think they even

1597
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 1: live in Lavia. Raccoon dogs the same the pangolin was

1598
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 1: read it on Jim's Instagram. Yeah, the penguin. The penguin

1599
01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:29,640
Speaker 1: was involved too. They found they found some DNA that

1600
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,559
Speaker 1: was linked to the penguin. But these bear cats, people

1601
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:35,759
Speaker 1: have observed for a long time, um that they actually

1602
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:38,639
Speaker 1: like smell like fresh popcorn, which is bizarre because that

1603
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:43,840
Speaker 1: the that smell, that fresh popcorn smell, or browned um

1604
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 1: buns or even seared steak, or that really nice smell

1605
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:51,759
Speaker 1: when you're browning. Something comes from a reaction of amino

1606
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 1: acids and sugars and high heat. It's called a mail

1607
01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 1: or Maillard reaction. It's like you have on here in

1608
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:03,719
Speaker 1: the notes. It says unrelated to waterfall because it's action reaction. Yeah,

1609
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 1: there's a there's an steaks, fried dumplings, cookies, biscuits, breads,

1610
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:12,839
Speaker 1: toasted marshmallows. Yep. So it creates that that chemical process

1611
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,799
Speaker 1: of searing things with amino acids and and sure creates

1612
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:19,360
Speaker 1: that smell. But these bear cats in um Southeast Asia

1613
01:28:19,439 --> 01:28:22,120
Speaker 1: running around with that same smell. And so some researchers

1614
01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:24,679
Speaker 1: looked at a whole bunch of compounds in their urine

1615
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 1: trying to find some compound that might correlate something that

1616
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:31,679
Speaker 1: they all had um. And they found this too. Uh

1617
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 1: to a p is what's what it's called, and it's

1618
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:37,280
Speaker 1: to a setal one pyrolane, and it's just a it's

1619
01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:41,560
Speaker 1: just a compound, but it's the compound that results from

1620
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 1: when you're browning bread or your searing steak, this this

1621
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,600
Speaker 1: Maillard reaction um. And so they found that compound and

1622
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:50,240
Speaker 1: it was the only of about fifty compounds, it was

1623
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 1: the only one that was in all the individuals, like

1624
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 1: twenty six bear cats that they tested. It was in

1625
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,680
Speaker 1: all individuals. And it's known to create this smell um

1626
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:01,320
Speaker 1: through the mailor reaction. But I mean, nobody's toasting these

1627
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 1: bent wrongs in the forest. So Um, it's coming from

1628
01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:08,160
Speaker 1: something else in their urinary track or their digestive track.

1629
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:12,360
Speaker 1: And there's some bacteria that have been shown to actually

1630
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:15,840
Speaker 1: create as a byproduct this two AP that makes that smell.

1631
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:18,639
Speaker 1: And so they're they're only at this point theorizing that

1632
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,320
Speaker 1: there's maybe some bacteria in the urine that's interacting and

1633
01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:24,720
Speaker 1: it's resulting in this two AP being produced and making

1634
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:27,839
Speaker 1: them smell like like brown bones in the oven. Wow.

1635
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:30,759
Speaker 1: You know, it might be a good little research project

1636
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 1: for you, Jim. Why do prong horns smell like freed

1637
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: to lake corn ship? I know I haven't heard that.

1638
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:40,840
Speaker 1: I've heard that. And who you run your hands through

1639
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:43,200
Speaker 1: their hair and smell your hands? You think you've been

1640
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 1: eating fried olcornship. I'm looking forward to that smell real soon.

1641
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:51,760
Speaker 1: It is a crazy thing. I ate some Maillard reacted

1642
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:57,680
Speaker 1: mallards last night. Oh delicious. Okay, I got I got one.

1643
01:29:57,760 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: I got one more for a gym unless unless you

1644
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:02,360
Speaker 1: got out more things you want to add. No, it's good.

1645
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: Where are we at with um? You know, keep reading

1646
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 1: about COVID and white tails and the crazy rates of

1647
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:11,719
Speaker 1: COVID and you know, sixties some percent of the white

1648
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:15,799
Speaker 1: tailed deer sampled in let me clarify, sixties some percent

1649
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 1: of the white tailed deer sampled in Michigan. I remember,

1650
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:21,000
Speaker 1: it's not that they had COVID, but they showed what

1651
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 1: the hell is it? They had exposure to the stars

1652
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 1: Kobe too virus that causes COVID. They didn't have the

1653
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:30,520
Speaker 1: disease and the symptoms, but they had high end body levels.

1654
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:33,679
Speaker 1: The body levels. Where does that sit right now? There

1655
01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:36,280
Speaker 1: hasn't been a lot. I was just this earlier this week.

1656
01:30:36,320 --> 01:30:38,680
Speaker 1: I was in the um Fort work that the Association

1657
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:41,640
Speaker 1: Fishing Wilife Agencies, which is all fifty wilife agencies and

1658
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 1: all Canadian provinces and territories like Yukon and Northwest Territories,

1659
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 1: and they have a Wildlife Health meeting and they had

1660
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:49,920
Speaker 1: a lot to address in that Wildlife Health meeting, which

1661
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 1: I always attend because that's the place you can get

1662
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 1: the latest information. And they weren't. They didn't have time

1663
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,280
Speaker 1: to go into any detail. But the people from m

1664
01:30:57,400 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 1: U S d A and U S g S that

1665
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 1: are tracking us UM there's not a lot of new

1666
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:04,800
Speaker 1: stuff since we talked in December about the fact, like

1667
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: you mentioned that these white tailed deer in the East

1668
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:11,799
Speaker 1: UM are getting not only getting exposed to the stars

1669
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:15,280
Speaker 1: Kobe two virus and having antibodies, but they're they're showing

1670
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 1: that they're being exposed to the actual UM variants that

1671
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:22,639
Speaker 1: are circulating in the human population. At that time, pretty

1672
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:25,640
Speaker 1: obvious that they're getting it from humans. I thought it

1673
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 1: was coming from Doug Duran's urine. Yeah, yeah, there is

1674
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:37,400
Speaker 1: a lot of updates. They're they're right right, and so

1675
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:40,920
Speaker 1: so as a sample like the sample white tails two

1676
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:43,120
Speaker 1: years ago over here at the beginning of the pandemic,

1677
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:45,439
Speaker 1: and they had the the original version, and then they

1678
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,320
Speaker 1: sample next year, they sample during this other area and

1679
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 1: they've got the delta version, and then the deer over

1680
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 1: here have his omicron version later on. So they're getting

1681
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:57,080
Speaker 1: them as the circulates through the human from really good

1682
01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:01,800
Speaker 1: like like what so it's still it definitely spilling over

1683
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:05,040
Speaker 1: into the deer population. Now the concern is then that

1684
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:08,960
Speaker 1: it circulates independently in the deer population and mutates as

1685
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 1: it does mutates and changes, and then they're they're worried

1686
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,520
Speaker 1: about it's spelling back into humans. And that was documented

1687
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 1: in one case in Ontario where some guy that picks

1688
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:21,240
Speaker 1: up road kills, shows up with the version that's circulating

1689
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 1: in the deer population at that time. So that was

1690
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:26,639
Speaker 1: a case where deer actually the guy caught it people,

1691
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 1: but it didn't cause any unusual sickness. It was just um,

1692
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: he had a case of COVID. What's weird about that

1693
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:35,360
Speaker 1: case is that mink are also susceptible, and mink farms

1694
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:38,400
Speaker 1: have had to be depopulated because they've they've they've got

1695
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:41,880
Speaker 1: the syrus Kobe two and make farm workers have caught

1696
01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 1: it from the mink, those versions that are circulating in

1697
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 1: the mink. This guy they were pelting, like in Denmark

1698
01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:50,120
Speaker 1: and else where. They were pelting millions of mink or

1699
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 1: a should they were gassing millions of mink, and I

1700
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:54,960
Speaker 1: thought it would lead to a real spike in in

1701
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:58,599
Speaker 1: like mink and muskrat fur prices. But apparently they pelted.

1702
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 1: They pelted tons of those. Man can actually flooded the

1703
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 1: markets with with COVID mink pelts. Interesting, the one guy

1704
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 1: that got COVID from white tailed deer from picking up

1705
01:33:08,040 --> 01:33:11,160
Speaker 1: road kills in Ontario, that version he got from deer,

1706
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:14,559
Speaker 1: but it was actually a mink variant that was in

1707
01:33:14,680 --> 01:33:18,000
Speaker 1: dear and then into human weird just weird weird stuff.

1708
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:20,599
Speaker 1: So if you went to this wild this health thing,

1709
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 1: did you hear about this big bad hog virus? Stay

1710
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:30,120
Speaker 1: tuned for that. Sean Weaver has been been a whistleblower

1711
01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:34,679
Speaker 1: about some big bad hog virus hog wild hog or domestic.

1712
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 1: Could you know? He said? He was saying to me

1713
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:42,479
Speaker 1: and Cal, He's like, hey man, pay attention to this

1714
01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:45,040
Speaker 1: because I got you know, some disease. People are telling

1715
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:47,240
Speaker 1: me this could turn into a huge deal. Yeah. I

1716
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:50,320
Speaker 1: wish I knew that, because that's the spreading among hog

1717
01:33:50,400 --> 01:33:55,160
Speaker 1: populations on other continents. But there was some prediction. I see.

1718
01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 1: I shouldn't be saying this ship because I don't know. Listen,

1719
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:00,400
Speaker 1: let me let me keep your eye on those Listen,

1720
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 1: I am talking. I don't have no idea what I'm

1721
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:10,479
Speaker 1: talking about. I don't know, however, something about some hog

1722
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 1: thing that could just be insane. I shouldn't need the hogs,

1723
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:23,760
Speaker 1: we know it. Yeah, I wish I knew that from Jim. Yeah,

1724
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 1: you need to have Sean Sean's d report. We need

1725
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:29,040
Speaker 1: to have Sean's hard report, and Sean will come hit

1726
01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 1: us with a hog report. What else you got Jim's

1727
01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 1: been a long time since we talked. Man, Yeah, I know.

1728
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 1: It's just good to be back. Good talk about fun stuff.

1729
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:39,600
Speaker 1: Do you need anything? Is there anything I didn't that

1730
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:41,639
Speaker 1: I didn't ask you that you needed to be asked about.

1731
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,360
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Just my Instagram account. I got

1732
01:34:44,439 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 1: rookie numbers with Yeah, if you guys could go and

1733
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:50,160
Speaker 1: help bolster Jim back up. But listen, you just shoot you, Jim.

1734
01:34:50,200 --> 01:34:53,240
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, shooting yourself at the foot. I

1735
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 1: don't know. You might just need to make a new

1736
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:57,519
Speaker 1: one that sticks to. I'm not trying to tell you

1737
01:34:57,560 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: what to do, but you might need to make a

1738
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 1: new one at just sticks to, like dear Biology, and

1739
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:05,760
Speaker 1: not do what you think might And you know what,

1740
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 1: want you do this and just cave into the a

1741
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 1: I bought. No, No, here's an idea. I got an

1742
01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:10,720
Speaker 1: idea for you because I don't want That's what I do.

1743
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 1: I don't want you to cave into the a ibots.

1744
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:18,360
Speaker 1: Why don't you start to pistol Jim. Okay, pistol Jim.

1745
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:26,280
Speaker 1: Pistol Jim. And that's like you're shooting account. And then

1746
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:28,519
Speaker 1: you got your dear Biology account. Then you run these

1747
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:33,120
Speaker 1: two accounts and see if the Pistol account blows up

1748
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 1: and never gets flagged and your Dear Biology account gets

1749
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 1: taken down, then it'll deepen the mystery. Yeah. I don't

1750
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:42,800
Speaker 1: like that idea, don't know. I don't have time for that.

1751
01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:44,680
Speaker 1: I don't have time for deal accounts. I'm gonna hit

1752
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,080
Speaker 1: the icon and go to the Instagram account. Okay, So

1753
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 1: help Jim out if we could. How many followers did

1754
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:52,840
Speaker 1: you have when you report me? How many followers when

1755
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 1: he stole your account? For a thousand? If you guys,

1756
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:59,400
Speaker 1: just come on help. If you don't have an Instagram account,

1757
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:04,880
Speaker 1: make one. Follow Jim. Follow Jim at Serving Nut not

1758
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:10,800
Speaker 1: serving nuts served, Yeah, served nuts served like Dear Served Nut,

1759
01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:13,280
Speaker 1: and follow the Wild Turkey Doc. And that's all you

1760
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:16,120
Speaker 1: need to do. Yep, yep in my website deer nut

1761
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:19,640
Speaker 1: dot com Dear d W R. N Ut and you

1762
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 1: can get Deer to the Southwest there and get Jim's

1763
01:36:22,920 --> 01:36:25,759
Speaker 1: new books. Yeah, and that'll be out probably January February,

1764
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:28,080
Speaker 1: that Big Meal Deer and Black Tail Deer book. Did

1765
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:30,720
Speaker 1: you follow him something? Oh? Yeah, I'm just looking at

1766
01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:32,759
Speaker 1: your kind of Now you have a picture of deer

1767
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:38,080
Speaker 1: on ice floes. Yeah, using them to travel with three examples,

1768
01:36:39,240 --> 01:36:42,160
Speaker 1: that's insane. But did you see all the pictures ringing

1769
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:45,360
Speaker 1: endorsement from the last one is the last one is

1770
01:36:45,439 --> 01:36:50,200
Speaker 1: Rudolph and Cornelia's had a nice flow. But there's one

1771
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 1: of a big white tail bucket looks like standing Yeah,

1772
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:58,400
Speaker 1: bring it like Seth, like serving nut. Yeah, go to

1773
01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:00,680
Speaker 1: serving nut. Get get Jim back up and run and

1774
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: so they can come and shut his countdown again. And

1775
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 1: then you'll have to go with that. I don't know.

1776
01:37:04,360 --> 01:37:05,719
Speaker 1: You have to think of some other thing that means

1777
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:10,160
Speaker 1: dear gun nut buck nut. I might get buck nut

1778
01:37:10,240 --> 01:37:12,640
Speaker 1: right now that Bill sell to Jim later? What do

1779
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:18,120
Speaker 1: this his accouch shutdown for not learning his last all right,

1780
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger. Eric, can you say where you work? Yeah,

1781
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:24,320
Speaker 1: Arizona Game at fish do they get mad when you

1782
01:37:24,360 --> 01:37:26,120
Speaker 1: come out on the shore. They like it because it's outreach.

1783
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:29,439
Speaker 1: I think they're ambivalent. I mean, it's good information. That's

1784
01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 1: not what I wanted to hear. It just they don't care.

1785
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 1: They do care. No, there are there are a lot

1786
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:40,200
Speaker 1: of fans, of course, in the in the in the agency.

1787
01:37:40,280 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 1: I was I was at a sandwich shop in Fort

1788
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: Worth last week and sitting down at the table, and

1789
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:49,000
Speaker 1: some guy came with me and said, are you Jim Heffelfinger, Like,

1790
01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm near someone famous and introduced myself,

1791
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:55,519
Speaker 1: shook my hand and he said, yeah, I'm a real

1792
01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 1: fan of the Meat Eater and I really like when

1793
01:37:57,479 --> 01:37:59,160
Speaker 1: you're on there. I like your stuff, and I said

1794
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:00,880
Speaker 1: he And then he said what are you doing in town?

1795
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 1: And so I thought he was another biologist at the

1796
01:38:03,200 --> 01:38:06,280
Speaker 1: meeting because that's usually who knows who I am. And

1797
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 1: he wasn't He just living for Worth? And I said, well,

1798
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 1: how did you know who I was randomly here in

1799
01:38:10,720 --> 01:38:12,880
Speaker 1: the sandwich shop? And he said, with a big name

1800
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:20,240
Speaker 1: tag on the lanyard. That's great man. All right, So

1801
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 1: here's what happened. We're gonna end the show. We're gonna

1802
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:26,120
Speaker 1: do trivia. Karin's gonna work with you to build up.

1803
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:28,680
Speaker 1: As stuff comes to mind, You'll continue to send us

1804
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 1: what's on your mind. We'll make a big stack of it.

1805
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:34,040
Speaker 1: And then there was enough stuff that's on your mind,

1806
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:36,639
Speaker 1: you'll come back and we'll cover what's on your mind again.

1807
01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 1: Sounds good? Oh, actually I have one more question. I

1808
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 1: should have put this before. Um. When I first met you,

1809
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:47,040
Speaker 1: I just I knew you as like that hair hunter

1810
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 1: hair hunters you know, yeah jack jackrabbit, Mum, jack grabbit

1811
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:03,880
Speaker 1: have like disposable you didn't have so many of them lose. Next,

1812
01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:06,760
Speaker 1: I had a Facebook page that was Jack Rabbit Jim,

1813
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:10,880
Speaker 1: and Facebook shutting me down long time. They said they

1814
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:13,160
Speaker 1: and it was all about jack rabbit hunting. And they

1815
01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:15,880
Speaker 1: said jack Rabbit Gym not your real name, and so

1816
01:39:16,439 --> 01:39:18,320
Speaker 1: you need to send us a photo. I D a

1817
01:39:18,400 --> 01:39:22,280
Speaker 1: government issue jack rabbit gym is like not and and

1818
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:24,880
Speaker 1: so I and so I didn't have an obviously didn't

1819
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:26,760
Speaker 1: have an idea with jack Rabbit Gym on it. So

1820
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:28,839
Speaker 1: they shut it down. And I was telling my director

1821
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:32,760
Speaker 1: or pass director um that story because he knows about

1822
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:34,599
Speaker 1: the jack rabbit camp I used to have, and he says,

1823
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 1: I can I can fix that. I can get you

1824
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 1: a government issued idea. This is jack rabbit gym and

1825
01:39:39,160 --> 01:39:42,000
Speaker 1: my my Arizona game official. I d said jack Rabbit

1826
01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger with my but it was too late. It

1827
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:53,480
Speaker 1: was too late to say social media. Um, wow, that's hilarious.

1828
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:59,479
Speaker 1: Go follow Jim. Question. The next year you said that

1829
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,000
Speaker 1: the season and I think was closed because their numbers

1830
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 1: weren't crazy and not closed there, just their numbers were loose.

1831
01:40:05,080 --> 01:40:07,800
Speaker 1: I just wanted to see what what the state. Yeah,

1832
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:11,040
Speaker 1: they're they're coming back, but we've also had a horrible

1833
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:12,880
Speaker 1: drought last year, and so we had this rabbit We

1834
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:17,600
Speaker 1: had this rabbit virus that swept through it's New Mexico, Arizona,

1835
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:20,679
Speaker 1: but then it went all the way up into somewhat

1836
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:24,000
Speaker 1: into the Northwest and the Rocky Mountain States. Um, it

1837
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:26,800
Speaker 1: really knocked him our cotton tail and blacktail jack rabbit,

1838
01:40:26,800 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 1: analope jack rabbit population down. And then the drought came

1839
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:31,719
Speaker 1: after that, and so it was kind of a double whammy.

1840
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:34,920
Speaker 1: So they're building their their populations back up. Um, the

1841
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:38,919
Speaker 1: season not closed because what little hunting occurs isn't impacting

1842
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:42,160
Speaker 1: the population. But I'd say they're just building back. You guys,

1843
01:40:42,200 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 1: we're going you guys are going easy yet because there

1844
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:46,679
Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't worth the chase at the time. Well,

1845
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:48,800
Speaker 1: we also I know a lot of people that jack

1846
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:50,599
Speaker 1: rabbit hunt that said they were just laying off them

1847
01:40:51,120 --> 01:40:52,920
Speaker 1: for a while. And then we had this junior jack

1848
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:54,640
Speaker 1: rabbit camp. We had every year, and we didn't have

1849
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:57,080
Speaker 1: it two years ago because of COVID, and then last

1850
01:40:57,160 --> 01:40:59,080
Speaker 1: year they just decided not to have it just because

1851
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:01,920
Speaker 1: of the population. Do you want a bird squirrels? M

1852
01:41:02,680 --> 01:41:04,080
Speaker 1: So here's the deal I got. I know we're trying

1853
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:06,840
Speaker 1: to wrap up. Let me tell this real quick. There's

1854
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:09,840
Speaker 1: the National squirrel is the International or National Squirrel cook

1855
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:14,240
Speaker 1: Off National happens in Arkansas. Apparently we gotta kid we got.

1856
01:41:14,320 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 1: We're trying to work on this. They were gonna do

1857
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 1: it in Tennessee, but they got run out by the

1858
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:21,320
Speaker 1: animal rights people. So Yanni's got Yann he's been working

1859
01:41:21,360 --> 01:41:24,599
Speaker 1: with the people. They got a whole venue. We want

1860
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:29,680
Speaker 1: to have a giant blowout squirreld world. But I want

1861
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:31,559
Speaker 1: to get the guy, the the guy that actually does

1862
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:34,559
Speaker 1: it in Arkansas involved. We want to have the most

1863
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: hugest squirrel cook off blowout in Tennessee. I think that's

1864
01:41:39,240 --> 01:41:44,519
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson in Arkansas. I'm not positive play. I don't know.

1865
01:41:44,680 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 1: It's because the Tennessee Boys said they've been reaching out

1866
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,040
Speaker 1: to the Arkansas Boys, and the Arkansas Boys haven't been

1867
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:54,200
Speaker 1: returning communications. No, Well, if they don't want to do it.

1868
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:55,519
Speaker 1: They don't want to do it. I mean, I don't know,

1869
01:41:55,680 --> 01:41:59,840
Speaker 1: but um does a bird? Squirrels are big, then bring

1870
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 1: some a birds and end of the competition. That cooked there.

1871
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 1: They don't want to do it. I thought that they

1872
01:42:05,080 --> 01:42:09,320
Speaker 1: would run the whole program, the Arkansas boys. I don't.

1873
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that previously already there's before we ever

1874
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:17,600
Speaker 1: got involved, they Tennessee had tried to make communications with

1875
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:20,479
Speaker 1: the people that have been running that one in Arkansas,

1876
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 1: and they've been having difficulties getting a hold of them.

1877
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:27,040
Speaker 1: That's all. Don't figure it out. Yeah, if if we

1878
01:42:27,080 --> 01:42:29,120
Speaker 1: do it, you'll come up. Yeah, oh yeah, that would

1879
01:42:29,120 --> 01:42:32,280
Speaker 1: be awesome. You know, those kipap squirrels are black a birds,

1880
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:35,960
Speaker 1: pretty cool. They look really neat. They've got reddish stripe

1881
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:38,599
Speaker 1: on their back. They looked like their sides of cotton tails.

1882
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:42,120
Speaker 1: I like to go down and hunt a couple. Do that.

1883
01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:45,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to do it. Did you know what? I

1884
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:50,760
Speaker 1: just transferred all my old Garmen way points. I had

1885
01:42:50,800 --> 01:42:52,479
Speaker 1: to call some of the on X figured out because

1886
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:55,000
Speaker 1: on that good that kind of stuff. I have bazillions

1887
01:42:55,040 --> 01:42:58,639
Speaker 1: of old way points from like an old GPS. Yeah,

1888
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:02,320
Speaker 1: are around my Montana six hundred way back, and I

1889
01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 1: was like, I wanted to get him onto on X,

1890
01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:07,720
Speaker 1: which is exceedingly easy to do, but it was like

1891
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:09,920
Speaker 1: the most baffling. I was looking at it like mass

1892
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:12,599
Speaker 1: tam forever to enter all these cordants. So I called

1893
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 1: it one on X, like no, just no, just do this,

1894
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:17,400
Speaker 1: this this over the phone. I got it all loaded up.

1895
01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:19,320
Speaker 1: When I was going through them all, I got a

1896
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 1: lot of like I hit a lot of way points

1897
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,439
Speaker 1: to say Abert. It was like Abert one, Abert two,

1898
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:29,960
Speaker 1: Abert three down in Mats Just what's that down Mats No,

1899
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. And it was I was walking around,

1900
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:37,400
Speaker 1: hitting and making way points every time I saw Abert. Squirrel.

1901
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:39,439
Speaker 1: So I'm sitting on hot intel now that I thought

1902
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:44,960
Speaker 1: was just lost to whatever. But I know specific trees. Yeah.

1903
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 1: I hung out with one of those pelts for your

1904
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:51,040
Speaker 1: squirrel collection too, when we gave those the guy Zucker. Yeah,

1905
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:55,280
Speaker 1: well we should get get one of those forms. Yeah, alright,

1906
01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:58,160
Speaker 1: squirrel cook off man. Now you know what, maybe you

1907
01:43:58,160 --> 01:44:00,439
Speaker 1: could do like a lecture on squirrel biology down there.

1908
01:44:00,640 --> 01:44:02,680
Speaker 1: You could do that would be interesting. It's gonna be

1909
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:05,479
Speaker 1: so cool, man. But we should bring in our squirrel

1910
01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:11,280
Speaker 1: to ye. My office is right down the hall from his.

1911
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:13,680
Speaker 1: Before he went to the University of Wyom and I saw.

1912
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:15,519
Speaker 1: I knew him for more than ten years. One of

1913
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:18,600
Speaker 1: my favorite people in the world. Oh he's awesome. He know,

1914
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 1: he's helped me out. Speaking of interesting vaculums, remember the

1915
01:44:24,360 --> 01:44:30,840
Speaker 1: squirrels baculum, Oh, barbed corkscrew, corkscrew. There's a dirty limerick

1916
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 1: about that that I'll not tell. Don't even don't tell

1917
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 1: the plush line, don't nothing. Remember this is family friendly.

1918
01:44:36,560 --> 01:44:39,479
Speaker 1: You know. There's actually some theories that some of those things,

1919
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:44,040
Speaker 1: a vacuum like that might actually pull the sperm plug

1920
01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:46,479
Speaker 1: from the previous mail out we covered that. Oh did

1921
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:50,920
Speaker 1: you well? Your body covered that? Yeah? Fast. He gave

1922
01:44:50,920 --> 01:44:53,800
Speaker 1: you a little shit as I remember. He's good. He

1923
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:57,719
Speaker 1: was good. Where'd he go? He went the University Wyomen.

1924
01:44:57,760 --> 01:45:00,200
Speaker 1: He's the dean of the hob School, so he's over

1925
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:03,040
Speaker 1: Monteth and not so much Coffin because he's U s

1926
01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 1: g S. But Monteth is in the program, so he's

1927
01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:08,840
Speaker 1: gonna put all those guys on squirrel research. Al right,

1928
01:45:09,800 --> 01:45:13,599
Speaker 1: probably no, I want to all the squirrel migration corridors.

1929
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:15,800
Speaker 1: John has done a ton of other research. You know,

1930
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:17,880
Speaker 1: he's a squirrel guy, my son. I tell my son

1931
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:19,760
Speaker 1: about him, and he says, so do they call him

1932
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:26,120
Speaker 1: the nutty professor? All right, thanks for coming on, man, Yeah. Yeah,

1933
01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 1: and we'll see a squirrel cook off. Yeah, sure, World

1934
01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:29,880
Speaker 1: Squirrel cook Off.