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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for an older episode.

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Speaker 1: This one was called I Want a New Blood and

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Speaker 1: it was originally published October eight, So we're still dipping

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Speaker 1: into the Halloween last year's season. Yep, We've we've got

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Speaker 1: the fake blood on drip for this one, So let's

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Speaker 1: drink up. I'm imagining like a box wine, you know

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Speaker 1: in the car bood. Hey, Doc, I've been thinking I

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Speaker 1: need a new blood. Oh, the animal blood it's not working. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I tried it. It made me crash my car, made

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Speaker 1: me feel you know, about three ft thick. Well, what

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Speaker 1: about true blood? Just hit the market? Headache, dry mouth,

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Speaker 1: made my eyes too red. Well, there's currently a clinical

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Speaker 1: trial for something called day Breaker. Be right there, Doc,

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Speaker 1: I got some on the black market. Made me vomit

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Speaker 1: and explode. But what exactly are you looking for? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go crazy with hunger.

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Speaker 1: I don't want my things too long. I also don't

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Speaker 1: want it to spill or come in a pill. Now,

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Speaker 1: now you're rhyming again. Have you been taking your synthough gore,

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Speaker 1: because that's one of the withdrawal symptoms. I'm all out, doc,

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Speaker 1: and I don't imagine you have anything else around here

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Speaker 1: on tap, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, the

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Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. And here we are covered in blood.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Last year we put out a Halloween episode

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Speaker 1: titled I Drink Your Blood Type, all about blood types

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Speaker 1: that you know humans have, but with a vampire flavoring.

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Speaker 1: I think we did a on skit at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of that one. Um, we briefly mentioned synthetic blood in

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Speaker 1: vampire fiction in that one. I remember we did reference

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Speaker 1: true Blood as well as a nineteen thirty nine film

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Speaker 1: titled The Return of Doctor X, which I haven't seen yet.

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Speaker 1: Still haven't seen this one, but it stars Humphrey Bogart

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Speaker 1: as an evil doctor with this kind of like skunk

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Speaker 1: streak in his hair and round glasses who has been

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Speaker 1: brought back to life with synthetic blood. The hair suggests

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Speaker 1: Elsa Lanchester like in Bright of Frankenstein. It does. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you definitely can see the Frannstein d na um maybe

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Speaker 1: even the lazy Frankenstein DNA in this costume design. Now,

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Speaker 1: in that episode, like you said, we mainly ended up

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Speaker 1: talking about natural uh properties of blood types, what evolutionary

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Speaker 1: pressures drove the development of different blood types, how that

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Speaker 1: functions in medicine, and then I think we also talked

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Speaker 1: about some pseudo scientific beliefs about blood types and personality

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Speaker 1: and psychology. But I think we only briefly mentioned in

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Speaker 1: the possibility of synthetic blood or using something other than

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Speaker 1: human blood in your veins. Yeah, that's right, we did.

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Speaker 1: We didn't get into the topic all that much, and

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Speaker 1: subsequently we had some listeners suggested for October twenty fair.

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Speaker 1: So here we are now, first and foremost, we should

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Speaker 1: really establish what blood literally is and maybe a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what it metaphorically is. So blood is technically

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Speaker 1: both a fluid and a tissue, since it's made out

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Speaker 1: of similar specialized cells suspended in a liquid matrix of plasma.

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Speaker 1: It carries oxygen and nutrients to the cells and carries

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Speaker 1: off carbon dioxide and other waste products. The heart pumps

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Speaker 1: it through the body, but it's also part of the

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Speaker 1: larger circulatory system. So organs like the kidney and the

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Speaker 1: lung are also important to blood. And of course, if

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Speaker 1: we lose enough blood in a short enough period of time,

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Speaker 1: we die, as we all know, yes, uh. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's amazing to stop and think how blood is not

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Speaker 1: just in your body but constantly moving throughout it, you know,

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Speaker 1: like while you're alive, it never stops. This is one

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Speaker 1: of those ideas that sometimes makes me feel the you know,

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Speaker 1: the flame run under my skin. It's it's just a

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Speaker 1: little too creepy thinking about how even when I'm sitting

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Speaker 1: perfectly still and perfectly at rest, the blood is still going.

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Speaker 1: It's rushing through every inch of me. And that's true

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Speaker 1: for all of us, of course. And so one thing

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Speaker 1: I was wondering actually is how long does it take

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Speaker 1: for each red blood cell to circulate all the way

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Speaker 1: through your body and make it back to the heart. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I was reading an interesting Q and A by the

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Speaker 1: Naked Scientists where they worked out the math on this,

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Speaker 1: and I thought this was pretty cool. So it depends

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Speaker 1: on a number of factors, but their estimate was that

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Speaker 1: for most people, the body performs a complete blood circuit

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Speaker 1: roughly every minute. And they found this because the average

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Speaker 1: adult has you know, roughly five leaders of blood in

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Speaker 1: the body. The average heart pumps about seventy milli leaders

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Speaker 1: of blood every time it beats, and the average rest

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Speaker 1: sting a heart rate is something like seventy beats per minute.

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Speaker 1: And if you multiply all these together, you find that

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Speaker 1: the heart circulates about four point nine are close to

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Speaker 1: five leaders of blood every minute. So on average, it

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Speaker 1: probably takes about one minute for your heart to circulate

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Speaker 1: your entire blood volume. And it does this minute after

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Speaker 1: minute after minute until you die. Isn't that crazy the

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Speaker 1: longer you look at it. Yeah, this idea of this

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Speaker 1: endless river of blood just circulating through your body. Now, blood,

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Speaker 1: of course, also has taken on various uh additional connotations,

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Speaker 1: connotations of heredity, class, race, violence, sacrifice, and more. I

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Speaker 1: was reading an article titled bio Securitization, the Quest for

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Speaker 1: Synthetic Blood and the Taming of Kinship by Cath Weston.

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Speaker 1: The author gets gets a bit deeper into the connotations

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Speaker 1: that will be discussing today, but there were several aspects

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Speaker 1: worth highlighting. First of all, just the idea of royal

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Speaker 1: blood and the divine right of kings. The idea that

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Speaker 1: there's like literally, there's something in the bloodline. UM. The

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Speaker 1: idea of blood is a signifier of kinship, the idea

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Speaker 1: of the idea that your relatives are your blood relatives, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And UH. An interesting thing that Weston points out to

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Speaker 1: is a historical tidbit is that blood transfusion UH, during

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Speaker 1: its history has been objected to for both religious reasons

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into an example of that in a bit,

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Speaker 1: but also for reasons steeped in racist ideologies. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so the you know that the metaphorical idea of blood

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Speaker 1: has often seemed to muddy our biological understanding of blood.

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Speaker 1: I think what this comes down to is that in

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Speaker 1: many ways blood is seen as some kind of essence.

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Speaker 1: That it's not just a part of the body that

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Speaker 1: plays a particular role in um in energy and the

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Speaker 1: oxygenation of tissues and the removal of waste products and

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Speaker 1: the circulation of chemicals, hormones and things throughout the body,

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Speaker 1: but it also is somehow the soul of the thing.

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Speaker 1: It There are properties inherent rent to the animal or

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Speaker 1: the human that are represented by or borne through the blood.

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Speaker 1: In particular. Yeah, it gets kind of weird. When you

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Speaker 1: think about the fact that, like, on one hand, to

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Speaker 1: think that the blood is not us, that the blood

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Speaker 1: is just this this oil that we run on, like

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Speaker 1: that's that's not completely correct. Like the blood we we

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Speaker 1: are blood. The blood is part of our body again,

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Speaker 1: it's it's tissue and a liquid. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: we're not just the blood. It's not like if you

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Speaker 1: drained our blood out and put us in a jar,

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Speaker 1: that's not us in the jar and an empty shell

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Speaker 1: over here. Like I'm I'm reminded of of myths, for instance,

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Speaker 1: that involve something like blood in other beings, like the

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Speaker 1: episode we did on Tallos the Bronze automaton and the

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Speaker 1: idea that he had this I core in his body

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Speaker 1: that was like the magical substance that that made him function,

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Speaker 1: and that that reveals a lot about how blood was

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Speaker 1: was considered in prior ages. Yeah, it's like the oil

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Speaker 1: and the car engine. But it's also the it's somehow magical,

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Speaker 1: it's somehow bearing the properties of godhood. And when you

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Speaker 1: take out the plug and allow all of the eye

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Speaker 1: cord to drain, now that you just kind of comes

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Speaker 1: to a halt. Yeah. So indeed, like the idea of

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Speaker 1: taking the blood from one person, the blood that is

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Speaker 1: part of that person, in putting it into another person.

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Speaker 1: You know that that that opens up the door for

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, I guess, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: metaphorical ideas about what that means. What does it mean

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Speaker 1: that that person is now in me um or what

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Speaker 1: orient in the when there is an injury? What does

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Speaker 1: it mean that a lot of me is now like

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Speaker 1: on the pavement. That sort of thing. Now, that brings

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Speaker 1: us to what we're mainly going to be talking about today,

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Speaker 1: the idea of blood transfusions. Again, if you lose too

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Speaker 1: much blood in a short period of time, you can die.

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Speaker 1: One way that we know that that can be prevented

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Speaker 1: today is by adding more blood, assuming it is the

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Speaker 1: correct sort of blood. When a blood transfusion is done correctly,

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Speaker 1: can save lives. It's you know, this is I think

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Speaker 1: something that most of us are familiar with. H And

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Speaker 1: as we detailed in last year's episode, which I think

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Speaker 1: we recently reran uh in our feed UH. One does

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Speaker 1: have to get it just right to respect the different

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Speaker 1: blood types. And this was a significant hurdle to overcome

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Speaker 1: in medical science totally. But the idea of synthetic blood

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Speaker 1: or a blood substitute, you know, the idea of there

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Speaker 1: being something other than blood that you could fill one

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Speaker 1: up with when you're you're facing a life threatening shortage. UM.

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Speaker 1: The key argument here would be, you know, something could

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Speaker 1: be manufactured ahead of time and to some degree kept

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Speaker 1: on a shelf for use in times of emergency. So

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Speaker 1: this was, you know, just decreasing to some extent the

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Speaker 1: reliance on blood and tissue donation. UM. I think it's

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Speaker 1: also been argued that this would be ideal if you

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Speaker 1: were dealing with a very far flung situation. You can't

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Speaker 1: have a proper blood bank on hand, but perhaps you

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Speaker 1: have some sort of short term substitute that can be

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Speaker 1: used instead. But of course, the other side of the

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Speaker 1: scenario is that such blood would be a product not

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Speaker 1: unlike true blood from the v show that we mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 1: We'll discuss where we are in our quest for a

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Speaker 1: true blood substitute, but first we want to explore some

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Speaker 1: of the earliest and really some of the weirdest and

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Speaker 1: grossest ideas for synthetic blood. It's really a wonderfully bizarre

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Speaker 1: bit of history. So one of the sources I was

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Speaker 1: Looking at Here is titled Artificial Blood by Suma and Sarkar,

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Speaker 1: and it was published in two thousand and eight by

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Speaker 1: the Indian Journal of Critical Care Medicine. And in this

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Speaker 1: the author points out that the notion of artificial blood

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Speaker 1: has pretty much stirred in the human mind for as

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Speaker 1: long as people have bled to death from their injuries.

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Speaker 1: Like we've we've realized that there's something and and this

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Speaker 1: can get kind of I think, kind of vague and

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Speaker 1: magical as to the you know, the idea that blood

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Speaker 1: is important and if we lose it we can die,

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Speaker 1: and hey have its loss means death. Perhaps it's uh

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Speaker 1: to add blood is to add life or to restore it. Now,

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Speaker 1: certainly there's a there's a mix of magic and and

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Speaker 1: early medicine here. Uh Sarkar points to ink and folklore

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Speaker 1: depicting something arguably like blood transfusion. I've also seen it

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Speaker 1: pointed out elsewhere that Odysseus temporarily resuscitates underworld shades by

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Speaker 1: offering them um blood sacrifice in the Odyssey. The idea

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Speaker 1: of blood as if not a biological underpinning of life,

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Speaker 1: you know, something tied up with our conception of the

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Speaker 1: life force. That that passage in the Odyssey is pretty stirring.

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Speaker 1: I was looking at a Robert Fagel's translation of it,

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Speaker 1: and basically, Odysseus is instructed to um to to flay

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Speaker 1: and then burn these um the the the animals and

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Speaker 1: sacrificial rams or what have you, in order to like

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Speaker 1: draw in the spirits of the dead so that he

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Speaker 1: can commune with them. And then of course later on

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Speaker 1: he does it. Uh. And it's it's it's actually really

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Speaker 1: rather creepy. Yes, And I would say one reason is

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Speaker 1: that it contains this older Greek view of the afterlife,

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Speaker 1: sort of the pre Platonic view of the afterlife in

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Speaker 1: Greek thought, which is less the idea of you know,

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Speaker 1: places of possible reward or punishment, and more the idea

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Speaker 1: that everyone who dies just dwells forever. In this miserable,

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Speaker 1: confused dungeon of shades. All right, on that wonderfully spooky note,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right

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Speaker 1: back with tales of early blood transfusions. Thank alright, we're

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Speaker 1: back now in talking about substitutes for human blood that

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Speaker 1: can be hooked up to your veins. One of the

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Speaker 1: easiest places you know, you can imagine people would have looked,

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Speaker 1: is to the blood of other animals, that's right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh and at this at this point, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: we're gonna move to around uh sixteen sixteen, because that's

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Speaker 1: when a man by the name of William Harvey described

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Speaker 1: blood circulation, which is going to be key, just a

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Speaker 1: better understanding of like what's actually going on with blood.

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Speaker 1: And in the following years, numerous substances were tried out

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Speaker 1: as a stand in for human blood. And the list

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Speaker 1: provided by Sarkar in that article I cited earlier is

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Speaker 1: pretty horrific. It includes beer, urine, milk, plant resins, and

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Speaker 1: of course sheep blood. Now, sheep's blood is at least blood, right,

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Speaker 1: so at least it has that going for it. And

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Speaker 1: and this is known as zeno transfusion. The first documented

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Speaker 1: zeno transfusion was conducted by French physicians Jean Baptiste Duni

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Speaker 1: and Paul Imarez in sixteen sixty seven, and it apparently

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Speaker 1: was successful between a fifteen year old boy and a lamb. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this first one was largely reported as successful. I

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Speaker 1: think that could be defined in a number of ways,

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Speaker 1: depending on what you what you call success. At least

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Speaker 1: it was reported that the fifteen year old boy felt

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Speaker 1: good afterwards. But this whole saga of Jean Baptiste Ani

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Speaker 1: is actually I started looking into this a little bit deeper,

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Speaker 1: and the more I looked, the weirder and weirder of God.

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Speaker 1: So I want to take a digression here to talk

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Speaker 1: about Denny and his his historical context. So one of

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Speaker 1: the papers I want to look at is by Benjamin H.

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Speaker 1: Chin Ye and I. N. H chin Ye published in

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Speaker 1: the Canadian Bulletin of Medical History in two sixteen, called

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Speaker 1: Blood Transfusion and the Body and Early Modern France. Now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of this paper is concerned with what medical

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Speaker 1: worldview guided the work of late seventeenth century physicians like

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Speaker 1: Denny and Denise contemporaries, and the authors argued that the

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Speaker 1: physicians of France in this time did not really have

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Speaker 1: a unified system of anatomical theory guiding their work, but

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Speaker 1: rather a somewhat contradictory patchwork of contemporary natural philosophy and

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Speaker 1: anatomical research with a received background of galenic humoralism. So

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Speaker 1: this is the system that you're probably pretty familiar with

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Speaker 1: by this time that views health issues as largely related

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Speaker 1: to the balance and status of the four humors blood, flim,

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Speaker 1: black bile, and yellow bile. This is received from UH,

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Speaker 1: not invented by, but sort of shaped and received by

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Speaker 1: the Roman physician Galen. Now, the authors of this paper

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Speaker 1: tell the story of the first documented Zeno transfusion with

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Speaker 1: some quotes from the report at the time. As you said,

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Speaker 1: the patient was a fifteen year old boy, and he

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Speaker 1: had already been through twenty rounds of blood letting. This

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Speaker 1: was in order quote, to assuage the excessive heat that

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Speaker 1: was a result of the boy's violent fever. And in

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Speaker 1: galenic theory, blood is associated with heat and excitation. This

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Speaker 1: is part of the place we get the idea of

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Speaker 1: being sanguine, right, you know, having an excess of blood

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Speaker 1: makes you sort of a brilliant and excited and energetic.

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Speaker 1: But this could be bad in in UH, in galenic thinking,

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Speaker 1: by causing fevers, by causing mania, and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: So they let this guy's blood twenty times, and after

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Speaker 1: the twenty bleedings quote, his wit seemed wholly sunk, his

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Speaker 1: memory perfectly lost, and his body so heavy and drowsy

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Speaker 1: that he was not fit for anything all right. So,

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Speaker 1: so basically a situation where the bathtub was too hot. Uh,

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Speaker 1: let some of the bathwater out. Now it seems a

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Speaker 1: bit too cold. Right. The problem is that, yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: he's appearing sluggish. That seems something is wrong with his brain.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he doesn't have memories or much energy. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: Denny counters this by starting a transfusion. He draws blood

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Speaker 1: from the carotid artery of a lamb, and then that

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Speaker 1: blood goes into the vein in the boy's arm. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: the boy received about nine ounces of lamb blood and

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Speaker 1: then Denny wrote that quote afterwards, he hath no longer

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Speaker 1: that slowness of spirit nor heaviness of body, which before

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Speaker 1: rendered him unfit for anything. He grows fat visibly and

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Speaker 1: in brief is a subject of amazement to all those

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Speaker 1: that know him and dwell with him. So Denny concludes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems like he's doing good. Uh. And this was

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Speaker 1: on June sixteen sixty seven. But blood transfusions can be unpredictable.

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Speaker 1: There can be wildly different reactions and different patients depending

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Speaker 1: on often how the host's immune system in particular responds

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Speaker 1: to what's being put into the veins and as we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about. Despite being on the cutting edge of

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Speaker 1: seventeenth century anatomy and new surgical techniques, Denny was also

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Speaker 1: still in the grip of Galenism, which had been, you know,

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Speaker 1: a dominant force in European medicine since the Roman Empire,

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Speaker 1: and which attributed the bulk of medical pathologies to imbalances

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Speaker 1: or corruptions in the four humors. And Deny himself, he

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Speaker 1: agreed with this. He believed, quote, the greatest part of

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Speaker 1: our diseases are but results of the distemper and corrupt

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Speaker 1: of the blood. Now he doesn't say quite every disease,

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Speaker 1: but you can imagine he thinks most of them. So like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: you've got arthritis. Uh, your problem is you've got bad blood.

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Speaker 1: Or you know, you've got, oh a fever. I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's a blood issue. We've got to get some

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Speaker 1: of that blood out. And so, as a result, he believed,

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Speaker 1: quote the speediest and commonest remedy they have in practice

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Speaker 1: is to evacuate the same by phlebotomy. Phlebotomy means blood letting,

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Speaker 1: or else refresh it and cool it by julips. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, if you know, for most diseases. The

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Speaker 1: cause is bad blood and the best treatment is to

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Speaker 1: drain the blood out or possibly to give the patient julips.

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Speaker 1: The paper doesn't explain what julips means here, so I

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Speaker 1: tried to look this up. I think what julips refers

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Speaker 1: to here is a flavored drink, for example, rose water

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Speaker 1: sweetened with sugar syrup. All right, so this is when

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Speaker 1: we talked to say about a mint julip. This is

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Speaker 1: the same word. Yeah. I think it was later on

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Speaker 1: that julip came to often have alcoholic connotations. I think

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Speaker 1: at this time it just would have meant a flavored drink,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily with alcohol in it. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: that is thought to deal with corruption of the blood,

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Speaker 1: but that is amazing, you know. Can you imagine you

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Speaker 1: show up at the hospital with dingay fever or whatever

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Speaker 1: and they're like, we could use some rose water. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Or if the or the two possible treatments on the

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Speaker 1: table are bleeding or a sweet drink, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: essentially you're gonna have kool aid or they're going to

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Speaker 1: drain you into a bucket. Well, it seems like between

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Speaker 1: the two, Dennis kind of favored one over the other.

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Speaker 1: It seems like he was a bleeder. And yeah that

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Speaker 1: that kid had not had twenty julips prior to the

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Speaker 1: lamb blood. To be fair, I don't know how many

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Speaker 1: julips he had, but they did bleed him twenty times. Uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe you got a julip every time. Who knows. It's

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Speaker 1: like the brownie they give you and the when you

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Speaker 1: go to donate blood, you know you get brownies. Oh man,

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Speaker 1: I get um like peanut better crackers. Sometimes I get

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Speaker 1: what is it that's a special tree? Oh, nutter butters

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Speaker 1: sometimes there I've seen the Nutter butters. Yeah, that confirmed

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Speaker 1: in my experience, Like it forces me to equate peanut

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Speaker 1: butter with the blood. Like basically, you know, we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about the same thing here. It's like, well I lost

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Speaker 1: some blood, gotta get some peanut butter in there. That

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Speaker 1: taste of the Nutter butter or the what is it's

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Speaker 1: I was trying to remember the name of the little

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Speaker 1: brownie that's got the colorful sprinkle on top that they

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Speaker 1: give you sometimes and Seth chimed in there called cosmic brownies.

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Speaker 1: We think, yeah, I've never heard of that. I mean

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Speaker 1: like space brownies. I believe Seth space cakes. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think you should have one of those after blood donation.

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Speaker 1: You should have some space shrimp cocktail after blood donation.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, okay, So, so bleedings, bleedings, all those bleedings

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Speaker 1: obviously that Denny loves. They can really take a toll.

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Speaker 1: As described, you know what happened to this fifteen year old.

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Speaker 1: So Denise saw blood transfusion from animals as a perfect

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Speaker 1: compliment to blood letting. In his words, it's quote the

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Speaker 1: old and corrupt being first evacuated, could then make room

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Speaker 1: for the new and pure. So in the case of

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Speaker 1: the June sixteen sixty seven transfusion, this teenage boy, he's

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Speaker 1: blood twenty times to bring down his fever. He's pretty

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Speaker 1: low after that, and then Lamb's blood is used to

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Speaker 1: revive him with a fresh, clean, non corrupted supply. But

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Speaker 1: Denny did not stop there with the xeno transfusions. Later

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Speaker 1: that same year, Denny also transfused sheep's blood into the

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Speaker 1: veins of a healthy forty five year old Sedan chairman.

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Speaker 1: Now that means he was one of those guys who

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Speaker 1: carries fancy people around in the litter, you know, so

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Speaker 1: if you're fancy and you don't want to get your

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Speaker 1: boots wet. You can ride in a box where four

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00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: guys carry you on poles. So you have to imagine

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Speaker 1: if if this guy is a professional sedan chairman, he's

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Speaker 1: probably pretty fit. Right, Yeah, he's got to be kind

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Speaker 1: of a hoss. And for that reason, I've seen this

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Speaker 1: case and the idea that there's no identified cause for it.

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Speaker 1: It seems like this was maybe a negative control role,

386
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: just like seeing what a transfusion does into a healthy guy.

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00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: And reportedly this guy was fine. And then after that,

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Speaker 1: Denny performed a transfusion of Calf's blood on a Swedish

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Speaker 1: and nobleman who was dying of an unspecified illness in Paris,

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00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: and the first transfusion this guy got seemed to sort

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00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: of enliven him, bringing him back a bit, freshen him up,

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Speaker 1: But then he died while in the middle of receiving

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00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: his second transfusion. We don't know why he died. But

394
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: then finally the authors tell the story of how Denny

395
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 1: performed again a similar operation on a thirty four year

396
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Speaker 1: old man named Antoine Moroy in an attempt to treat

397
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: a supposed mental illness. I read this case described more

398
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: fully in another paper by James G. Chandler, Teresa L. Chin,

399
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Speaker 1: and Max V. Wool Hour called direct blood Transfusions in

400
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: the Journal of Vascular Surgery from and I was having

401
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: trouble finding out exactly what Moroy's symptoms were. The main

402
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: report about him, The main symptom that has described is

403
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: that he would quote intermittently disappear from his suburban home

404
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: to indulge in paris Is sensual pleasures. I'm not sure

405
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: if that's actually a symptom of an illness, but right,

406
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: I mean, because certainly that that could go along, that

407
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: could certainly be the practice of one who's suffering from

408
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 1: a true mental illness. But you know, this could also

409
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: just this could also be a case of sexual addiction

410
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: or that, or it could just be, you know, merely

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00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: this person had a very you know, exciting sex life,

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Speaker 1: and whether they decided to treat medically, yeah, so I

413
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: don't know, but it is widely reported at the time.

414
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: Everyone says he was a known madman. So without any

415
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: other we just have to assume that there is something

416
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: else going on with him, I guess so. Denny, of

417
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: course attributed this supposed insanity to humorl imbalance. Denise solution, Well,

418
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: you've got to remove this man's blood and replace it

419
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Speaker 1: with calf's blood, and did he believed that the sweetness

420
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: and freshness of the calf's blood would temper the ardor

421
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: and the boiling of the man's existing blood. So Denny

422
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: tries this out. They bled him of two d ninety

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00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: milli leaders of his own blood, and then they put

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00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: about a hundred and seventy five milli leaders of blood

425
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Speaker 1: from a calf's femoral artery into a vein in Moroy's arm,

426
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: and it was reported that his temperament became more subdued

427
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: by the process. So it was repeated in the presence

428
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: of a number of observing physicians a few days later,

429
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: and the second transfusion did not go as well as

430
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: the first one. Maroy reacted first by he said he

431
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,239
Speaker 1: had lumbar pains, a pain in the lower back, and

432
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: tightness in his chest, and he presented an irregular pulse.

433
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: And then the next day this progressed into vomiting and

434
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: a nosebleed, and maybe most alarmingly, uh to quote from

435
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: Denise report, he produced a tall glass of urine as

436
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: black as if it had been deluded by my fireplace.

437
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: I want to be clear here that it may sound,

438
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: it may come through a little bit like I'm I'm

439
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: purely laughing on my side, but um, this is I'm

440
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: feeling an immense sense of revulsion here. This has just

441
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: giving me the all over. Oh yeah, god. Uh So

442
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: you would think this would suggest the transfusion was a

443
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: bad idea, right, that this guy's he's experiencing chest pain,

444
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: back pain, he's vomiting, his nose is bleeding, and he's

445
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: peeing black. But Denny considered it a success. And the

446
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 1: reason he considered it a success was he interpreted the

447
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: results according to humorl theory. He believed that the black

448
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: urine was an evacuation of excess black bile from the body,

449
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: which he wrote, is known to send vapors up into

450
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: the brain which disrupt its function. So, according to Deny,

451
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: he had been mistaken that the problem was too much

452
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: corrupted blood. Instead, the problem was too much corrupted black bile,

453
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: and the transfusion had caused the body to evacuate it all.

454
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: And Denny believed that his transfusion had some what succeeded

455
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 1: in curing moroy. Oh, it's such The the history thus

456
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: far is is very fascinating because you know, if you're

457
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: not familiar with it, and you hear about okay, the

458
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: first blood transfusion and it's going to involve a human

459
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: and um and and lamb, you just assume it's going

460
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: to end and just disaster and just end in death,

461
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: and that that will be a stumbling block. But then

462
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: it's not, or seemingly not. And then in this case,

463
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: something that seems like a firm warning, um, do not proceed,

464
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: rethink what you were doing, is interpreted as a success. Yeah, exactly,

465
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: though not by everyone, I should note, because the paper

466
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: by chin Ye and chin Yee notes that there was

467
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: a rival Parisian physician named guyom Lamie who he disagreed,

468
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: and he argued that the black urine was a negative

469
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: reaction to the calf's blood. But the reason, he said

470
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: was that it was indicative of the body's attempt to

471
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: purge the contamination of a substance that was against its nature,

472
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: which sounds kind of close. But I think this opposition

473
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 1: is being infused with, you know, ideas of sort of

474
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: like spiritual essential is um that are not really proper

475
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: in medicine. Uh It sounds to me like Muroy was

476
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: probably suffering from what is now called an acute hemolytic reaction,

477
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: which is a widely known rare side effect of a

478
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: blood transfusion, I guess, more common if it is not

479
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: a properly controlled blood transfusion. And this is where the

480
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: recipient's immune system interprets the donor red blood cells as

481
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: invasive pathogens and attacks them hemolysis in in the name

482
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: acute hemolytic reaction, hemallysis means the destruction of red blood cells,

483
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: and then the red blood cells under attack releases substance

484
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: into the blood that the body has to try to purge,

485
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: and this substance can cause severe damage to the kidneys.

486
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: And this will sound pretty familiar now. Symptoms of an

487
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: acute hemolytic reaction include, among their things, chest and lower

488
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: back pain, nausea, and dark urine. But then there is

489
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 1: an even stranger epilogue to the Moroy story. Uh So,

490
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: picking up with what's covered in the Chandler at All Paper, Denny,

491
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: of course considered Moroy somewhat cured, and I guess this

492
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: meant that he was no longer a seeker of sensual pleasures,

493
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: at least at first after what happened. And the authors

494
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: here say that at first Maroy behaved as his wife wished,

495
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: but then he became truculent again, and they say this

496
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: was quote prompting her to insist on another transfusion. Moroy

497
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: refused to cooperate and received no blood, so he was

498
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: going to get a third transfusion, but it didn't go forward,

499
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: and then quote he died that evening, and his wife,

500
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: perhaps with the encouragement of some physician critics, accused Denny

501
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: of killing her husband. Denny was tried for manslaughter but

502
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 1: exonerated when it was discovered that Mrs Moroy was poisoning

503
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: her husband with arsenic and then the following year, the

504
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: French parliament enacted a ban on transfusion of blood into humans.

505
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 1: So he tries to do this third transfusion, uh doesn't

506
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: work out. Maroy dies, his wife is found to have

507
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: been poisoning him, or at least is believed to have

508
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: been poisoning him, and then we get a ban on

509
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: on transfusions in France. But it also doesn't stop there

510
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: because while you can imagine it's common enough for a

511
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: person to be murdered by a spouse. The story gets

512
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: even more complicated. I was reading about a book by

513
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: a Vanderbilt University historian named Holly Tucker that argues the

514
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: case for a conspiracy of rival physicians to intentionally murder

515
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: Antoine Moroy and framed Denny for causing his death. Now,

516
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: I haven't read this book that it sounds extremely interesting,

517
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: but I want to give you the gist, mostly based

518
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: on a review in the Journal of Clinical Investigation by

519
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: Neil Blumberg. So, to start, we know that Denise gillina

520
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: humor theory was hopelessly misguided. Right, this is not a

521
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: good basis for medical intervention. There is no reason to

522
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: think that blood from a docile lamb will treat mania

523
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: and humans mental illness doesn't work that way, and there's

524
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: no way to predict or prevent which of these would

525
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: result in a severe, life threatening rejection of the donor blood.

526
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: But despite how misguided and dangerous Denise treatments were, denise

527
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: rivals opposed them for almost equally misguided reasons. A lot

528
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: of these I think some were probably just sort of

529
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: motivated by ambition, you know, they were kind of temporal

530
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: and political rivalries but many of Denise opponents had extreme

531
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: religious and conceptual opposition to blood transfusions. For example, some

532
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: of them believe that the transfusion of blood from an

533
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: animal could turn a human into a type of chimera

534
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: or some kind of animal human hybrid. You might become

535
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: a subhuman ware lamb or a ware calf, which is

536
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: very Gary Larson. Yes, and some also believed that the

537
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: ingestion of foreign blood through transfusion was a slippery slope

538
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: to cannibalism. I'm not quite sure how you get there,

539
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: but that at least was was argued. Yeah, because it's

540
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like the humans we're talking about

541
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: here weren't already eating meat, right, Yeah, I would think

542
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: that the eating of meat would more likely give way

543
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: to cannibalism than the transfusion of blood from animals. Yeah. Yeah,

544
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: And this might sound kind of outlandish, like, well, how

545
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: could you get to that? You know, how could you

546
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: have this kind of opposition to blood transfusions? But uh,

547
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: I know the cases made in Holly Tucker's book, and

548
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: Bloomberg himself brings up as a point of comparison that quote.

549
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: One might consider that current disagreements about stem cell therapies

550
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: are similar in nature, as some find it impossible to

551
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: separate considerations of religious belief and scientific approach. So even

552
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: today we certainly do have, you know, bioethical debates that

553
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: are largely prompted by religious belief. That's that's true. I mean,

554
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: you know, I certainly think to any number of um

555
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: of chimerical um uh studies that have come out, you know,

556
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: there's always going to be that that voice of criticism

557
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: that's going to raise the specter of some sort of

558
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: uh uh you know, man goat hybrid or whatever the case.

559
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: Maybe this is against nature, this is a perversion. Yeah, yeah,

560
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: the shadow of Frankenstein there. At the same time, it's

561
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: interesting looking at all this and thinking about like the

562
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: sort of spirit that the spiritual and religious ideas that

563
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: are kind of attributed to the idea of first and foremost,

564
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, the draining of the blood, the bleeding of

565
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: the patient, but then the idea of well it looks like, uh,

566
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: looks like your treatment didn't take You're still running, trying

567
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: to run off to Paris. We need to replace that

568
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: blood again. It reminds me of some of the criticisms

569
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: leveled at so called young blood transfusion that we've uh

570
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: we we've seen in in in recent years, you know,

571
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: the idea that an an older person could receive the

572
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: transfused blood of a younger person, uh with some sort

573
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: of health benefits. And I believe this is this is

574
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: largely seen as pseudo scientific um. But but but I

575
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: can I can see some of the same energy in

576
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: young blood transfusion that you see kind of attributed to

577
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: the the you know, the poorly understood nature of blood

578
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: transfusion at the time and the uh, the seventeenth century. Yeah,

579
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: I can totally see that, like this view of there's

580
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: some kind of unholy experiment that's being done in in

581
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: dark rooms that we don't have access to. And by

582
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: the way, anyone who watched the television series A Silicon

583
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: Valley you might remember the the the young blood um

584
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: thing being a part of the plot as the the

585
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: Hoholy founder A. Gavin Belson at one point has a

586
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: quote unquote blood boy who is responsible for providing him

587
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: blood transfusions to UH as as a as a I

588
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: believe in like a life hack to keep him on home. Man. Well,

589
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: it's interesting again to compare to the case of Danny

590
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: and his rivals. I mean, well, maybe I should finish

591
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: it first and then say this. So in the end,

592
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: Holly Tucker's book makes the argument that it was Denise opponents,

593
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: especially a physician named Henri Martin de la Martiniere, who

594
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: arranged the murder of the patient of Antoine Moroy by

595
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: giving arsenic to Moroy's wife and encouraging her to poison him. Ultimately,

596
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: she argues this was in an attempt to discredit Denise

597
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: medical theories, and it's a it's a case where there's

598
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: really no good guys because if you know, if Holly

599
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: Tucker's theory is correct, and they really did this, it

600
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: was a case of two camps that were both entirely wrong, Uh,

601
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: fighting over this conceptual biomedical space. Oh wow, this is

602
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: such a wonderful bit of a bit of history. I

603
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: wonder if this has been adapted in any kind of

604
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: historical drama, because it should perfect for that sort of thing. Yeah,

605
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: absolutely so. Anyway, that that is the very weird story

606
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: of early zeno transfusion in sixteen sixties France. Now, xeno

607
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: transfusion is technically still on the table today, but it's

608
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: generally not practiced with humans today because generally human blood

609
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: is much more forthcoming. Um but uh, but yeah, this

610
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: the strange history of of of blood, not just as

611
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: zeno transfusion, but again thinking of the idea of like

612
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: deer and urine or or milk being used. Uh, this

613
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: brings to mind the various alternative bloods you often encounter

614
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: in humanoid beings in sci fi and fantasy. You know,

615
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: I instantly think of the milk white blood in Ridley

616
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: Scott's Various Androids, or the yellow blood that you see

617
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: in Phantasms the Tall Man, or in the The Androids

618
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,959
Speaker 1: of Halloween three, one of my favorites. Yeah. Um, Now,

619
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: on the subject of milk, Sarkar rites that indeed, in

620
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, milk was injected into the veins of

621
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: patients with asiatic cholera, thinking that it would help regenerate

622
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: white blood stulls. Oh maybe is it like a color

623
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: match thing? I know, that's what it sounds like. Now.

624
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: The thing is enough patients survived that they kept trying it.

625
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: They're like, well, nobody's dying. It seems like they're eventually

626
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: getting better. Let's just keep doing it. And there's a

627
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: lot of skepticism about the practice even at at that time,

628
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: and this never really took off. There is so much

629
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: of medical history. In a way, it's almost it's amazing

630
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: that medicine exists at all, because I don't know what

631
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: the year was, where on the whole medicine became more

632
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: helpful than harmful. It's like shockingly recent. If you go

633
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: not even all that far back into the past, it

634
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: seems like the majority of medical interventions were just like

635
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: painful and terrible and did nothing to help and maybe

636
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: it would kill you. Yeah, once again, I come back

637
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: to that that that excellent Soderberg television series The Nick,

638
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: which takes place in New York City and nine, and

639
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: it's just portraying just the cutting edge of medicine at

640
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: the time, and even you know then you see like

641
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: just the catastrophic ways they get it wrong at times, uh,

642
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, be at things like blood transfusions or drug

643
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: interactions or the use of X rays. Now, in terms

644
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: of other potential blood substitutes, things you can put into

645
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: the body in place of at least some of the

646
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: blood UH sailing solutions seemed to promising UH solution for

647
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: a bit there as doctors found that you could give

648
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: a frog a complete transfusion of sailine and it would survive,

649
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: though only for a short while. UM. However, that this

650
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: is the stuff was eventually developed as a plasma volume expander.

651
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: Now Sarkar does not go into detail about the beer

652
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: and the urine UM tidbits, but they certainly don't highlight

653
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: them as successes, so UM I assume they were not

654
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: huge medical successes. Now the eighteen hundreds, hemoglobin and animal

655
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: plasma seemed promising, but there were technical hurdles to isolating

656
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: enough hemoglobin and animal blood um often contain toxins that

657
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: were challenging to remove at the time. In eighteen eighty three,

658
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: the creation of Ringer's solution. This is named for Sydney Ringer,

659
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: who lived eighteen thirty five through nineteen ten. Uh this

660
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: changed things a bit. Uh. So this is a solution

661
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: of sodium, potassium and calcium salts that was found to

662
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: restore healthy blood pressure after blood volume loss, and it's

663
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: still used today as a blood volume expander. But it

664
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: does not actually work as a blood substitute. Again, we

665
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: have to think of all the things that that blood does,

666
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: and this particular solution it doesn't, for instance, do anything

667
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: that red blood cells do, such as carrying oxygen, because again,

668
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: the human body is not just a big blood balloon.

669
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: You know, It's not just about warm volume. It's about

670
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: the vital function of the blood. So you can boost

671
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: the volume, but you still need something in the veins

672
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: doing the things that blood does. Now, as we discussed

673
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: in our previous episode on blood types UH, the Austrian

674
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: UH immunologists and pathologist Carl Landsteiner, who of eighteen sixty

675
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: eight through ninety three, discovered the primary A, B O

676
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: blood groups around the years nineteen hundred or nineteen o one.

677
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: At the time, doctors knew that many blood transfusions caused

678
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: adverse reactions in their recipient, mainly agglutination, which is where

679
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: the red blood cells clumped together. Blood transfusion technology advanced

680
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: a great deal from from that point on, and um

681
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: an interest in blood substitutes was renewed, especially during the

682
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 1: World Wars of the twentieth century. I think I said

683
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 1: this in the last blood episode, but I can't see

684
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: the name of Carl Landsteiner without thinking of him as

685
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: Carl land Strider. Alright, so fast forward to nineteen sixty six.

686
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: This is when um per floro chemicals or PFC was

687
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: explored as a potential blood substitute. Doctors found that a

688
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: rat's blood could be completely removed and replaced with the stuff,

689
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: but only for a few hours at a time. Uh.

690
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: This stuff then had to be replaced with actual blood,

691
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: but a full recovery was possible. So obviously you can

692
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: see the possibilities there, you know, something something that's not

693
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: blood we could at is get in there for a

694
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: little bit to stabilize the patient until actual blood can

695
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: be made available. Star Car writes that while there was

696
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: renewed interest during the AIDS epidemic and during Vietnam, for

697
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: the most part, advances in blood banking itself has you know,

698
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: has resulted in less research for the idea of a

699
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: true blood substitute, because ultimately, nothing takes the place of

700
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: human blood quite like human blood. But if we're going

701
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: to have synthetic blood, star Car points out that there

702
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: are a few key uh points that must be met. Okay,

703
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: like what so, first of all, it has to be

704
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: safe and compatible with the human body. Ideally, it should

705
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: also be universal for all blood types. You know, that's

706
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 1: not an absolute requirement, but certainly, if you're talking about

707
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: something that is just on a hand, say in a

708
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: field hospital situation, to hold the patient over until an

709
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: actual blood bank can come into play. Uh, it would

710
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: be nice if it just took care of all humans

711
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: and you didn't have to to deal with type. On

712
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: top of that, it needs to be able to transport

713
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: oxygen throughout the body, and it needs to offer more

714
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: robust shelf stability, such as lasting a year rather than

715
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: a mere month as with donor blood. As such, there

716
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: are basically two major areas of research under way. First

717
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: of all, per floral carbons. These are inexpensive. They're devoid

718
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: of biological materials that could spread infection. However, they're not

719
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: water soluble and they carry much less oxygen compared to

720
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: hemoglobin based products. Second, you have hemoglobin based products, so

721
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: these are oxygen containing. They're involved in oxygen transport with

722
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: our own red blood cells. So it's a great place

723
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: to start. Now. The downside to this direction is that

724
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: raw hemoglobin would break down into toxic compounds, and there

725
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: are solutions stability issues as well. Quote The challenge and

726
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: creating a hemoglobin based artificial blood is to modify the

727
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: hemoglobin molecule. So these problems are resolved, so you could

728
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: depend on either isolated hemoglobin or synthetically produced hemoglobin. If

729
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: it's isolated, the product is actually made from human blood,

730
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: typically blood for transfusions that has already expired. Animal blood

731
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: is another option apparently, but in this case the hemoglobin

732
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: would need to be modified before use. Hemoglobin synthesis, however,

733
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 1: is a process that involves the use of a strain

734
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: of E. Coli bacteria that has the ability to produce

735
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: human hemoglobin. There's a process involving bacterial destruction, fermentation and

736
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: isolation in a centrifuge, then final processing via the addition

737
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: of water and electrolytes, So farming it from bacteria. I

738
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah yeah. Now, as as for limitations, again,

739
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 1: as of this paper's writing, most of the hemoglobin based

740
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: products were lasting no more than twenty to thirty hours

741
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: in the body holds. Blood transfusions last thirty four days

742
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: for comparison. Also, this sort of blood substitute wouldn't bring

743
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: clotting or disease fighting to the table, so that leaves

744
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: its potential again more as a short term solution, something

745
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: to get in the body. Uh, while you're waiting to

746
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: access the fruits of blood bank. And of course this

747
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: is not even getting into some of the issues concerning

748
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: biosecurity and privatization of synthetic biology as it concerns ethical dimensions, etcetera.

749
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: Oh wait, so you could have like, uh, somebody's got

750
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: a patent on the blood that's in your arteries right now,

751
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, well that's the well, that's the kind of

752
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: thing that's often brought up in these discussions. I mean, however,

753
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: obviously the way I do, I do think it is

754
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: important to you know, distress that it would be great

755
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: if there was if we were to develop a pure,

756
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: you know, blood substitute that, even if it only worked

757
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: for a short time, could be kept on hand. You know,

758
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: that's something that that was universal, something with with a

759
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 1: decent shelf life. Uh, you know, even if it wasn't

760
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: a permanent solution, if it wasn't quite as good as

761
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: human blood, if it could just serve as a as

762
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: as a patch, you know, until a proper blood transfusion

763
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,919
Speaker 1: can take place, that would be instantly helpful. Totally. Should

764
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: we take a break and then come back to talk

765
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: a little more, Yes, thank alright, we're back. So I

766
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: was looking around for for more recent work. I was

767
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: looking at a two thousand seventeen study by Waging at

768
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: all published in Biomacromolecules, and they point out that hemoglobin

769
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: on its own, like we discussed this toxic, but that

770
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: a chemically modified version forms um methemoglobin which doesn't bind oxygen. Uh.

771
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: This decreases the oxygen in the blood and the generation

772
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: of methemoglobin produces cell damaging hydrogen peroxide. So the researchers

773
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: in this case looked into packaging hemoglobin in a quote

774
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: unquote benign envelope in this case um polydopamine or PA,

775
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: which was already understudy for biomedical applications. Their findings showed

776
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: promise with the package delivering oxygen while preventing the formation

777
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: of meth methemoglobin and hydrogen perox side, and it's resulted

778
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: in minimal cell damage. I mean, you can see pretty

779
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: easily why you wouldn't really want too much hydrogen peroxides

780
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: in your blood right now on the zeno transfusion front. Uh,

781
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: this is interesting. I came across a case report in

782
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: Clinical Case Reports by Rubinstein at all which discusses the

783
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: case of a fifty seven year old Jehovah's witness with

784
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 1: a form of pure red cell um aplasia or prc A. Now,

785
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: this is a type of anemia that impacts the patient's

786
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: ability to produce red, but not white blood cells. So

787
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: blood transfusions are an important form of treatment. But the

788
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: individual in question turned down these transfusions for religious reasons.

789
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: And I believe the stems with the Jehovah's witness faith

790
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: as an interpretation of abstaining from blood in the Bible.

791
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: I think this is from Leviticus. Yeah, there are multiple

792
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: passages cited by the Jehovah's witnesses. I think the most

793
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: common one is this one in Leviticus chapter seventeen, where

794
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: it says, Uh, for the life of the flesh is

795
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: in the blood, and I have given it to you

796
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: upon the altar to make atonement for your souls. For

797
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: it is the blood that makes the atonement for the soul. Uh.

798
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: And he says, therefore, to the children of Israel, you

799
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: shall not eat blood. And this and some other passages

800
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: are sort of interpreted in a in a way to say, well,

801
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: to be safe in following this, you probably shouldn't receive

802
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: blood transfusions either. But I was actually this is this

803
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: is interesting there's a whole Wikipedia page on the Jehovah's

804
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: Witnesses and blood transfusions that has this gigantic list of

805
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: what types of procedures are allowed and what are not

806
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: allowed according to Church doctrine. Because there are there's not

807
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: just one type of blood transfusion. They are all kinds

808
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: of blood related products that you can have put into

809
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: your body, and so there are some that they accept

810
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: and some they don't. In this case, however, it seems

811
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: like it was it was pretty much a don't on

812
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: the idea of more human blood being put into the

813
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: patient for this treatment. But in this case the physicians

814
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: used a quote bovine hemoglobin based oxygen carrier quote. The

815
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: patient received more than twenty units of HBOC two oh

816
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: one and was showing early signs of red blood cell

817
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: count recovery. Although the patient did not survive, administration of

818
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: the HBOC two oh one did sustain her long enough

819
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: to allow for administration of immunosuppressive therapy, which ultimately improved erythropoesis. Thus,

820
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: administration of alternative hemoglobin based oxygen carriers in the setting

821
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: of red cell at plasia associated with thy momus warrants

822
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: further investigation. And that's interesting. So this is a product

823
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: that is derived from the hemoglobin, the the oxygen carrying

824
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 1: protein that would be found in the red blood cells

825
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: originally of cows or some of their bovine And uh, yeah,

826
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: And I think this is in line with a lot

827
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: of the stuff I was seeing about Jehovah's witnesses beliefs

828
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: that um often that they will receive certain types of products,

829
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: but the objection more often is to whole blood. Now,

830
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: leaving medical research and uh and religious beliefs, maybe we

831
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: should come back to our vampire introduction, because I think

832
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: you were hypothesizing that, uh, vampires might might find themselves

833
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: rather picky over what types of synthetic blood are are

834
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: tasty or or go well with their I don't know,

835
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: what would it be the digestive system, what system receives

836
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: the blood vampire? Well, I guess that's the tricky thing

837
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: about vampires, right, is that there, of course creatures of

838
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: fantasy and interpretations of their their blood drinking. It's going

839
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: to range from the biological, the biologically grounded, to the

840
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: utterly magical. So what like, what is the nature of

841
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: the blood that the vampire is drinking. Are they drinking

842
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: like the magical life force of a being, you know,

843
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: the splendid eye core of the Sons of Adam? Or

844
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: is it like actual blood? Are they an actual sangovore

845
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: much like a vampire bat. And obviously, depending on what

846
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 1: your answer is going to be, you know, entirely different,

847
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: and certainly you could have You can imagine a situation

848
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: where you have a synthetic blood that is certainly helpful

849
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: treating individuals who who who need it, but he is

850
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: going to be kind of useless or at least not

851
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: all that desired by blood drinking supernatural beings. But I thought,

852
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: you know, what's what's the one thing we can definitely do.

853
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: We can definitely look to the vampire bats. We can

854
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: look at blood drinking in the natural world and see

855
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: if there's anything out there that at all relates to

856
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: this question. So I was looking at Wanted Blood for

857
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: vampire Bats by Lynn Laws, writing for the Iowa State

858
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: University College of Agricultural and Life Sciences. So, vampire bats,

859
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: we've discussed in the show before, typically feed on fresh

860
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: cow blood and only rarely bite humans. Typically for captive

861
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: vampire bats, and like a laboratory or a zoo environment

862
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: or some sort of enclosure. Cow blood does the trick um,

863
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: but zoo conditions, especially, an anticoagulant is added to the

864
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 1: blood to keep it fresh enough for feeding via little

865
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: peachree dishes that are placed out in the enclosure. Oh

866
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: I see, So like if you don't add an anticoagulant,

867
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: you could have the same problem you get where you

868
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: leave the soup out and it forms the skin. Yeah.

869
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: One imagines, yeah, that you need to keep you want

870
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: the blood. Obviously, vampire bats are not going to go

871
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: around in their natural environment drinking blood out of little puddles. Uh,

872
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, so you need to keep it fresh. You

873
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: need something to fresh it up. An anticoagulant seems to

874
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: do the trick. There apparently have also been experiments with

875
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: freezing the blood, and there's hope that we could eventually

876
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: create a dried powder that could be reconstituted at zoos

877
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: for the bats. So you add water to it and

878
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: you got blood. You know, sort of like a kool

879
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 1: aid powder, but for blood drinkers. Oh yeah, um, this

880
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 1: brings me back. I think there's a part in Giermo

881
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: del Toro's Blade to where like Russian vampires are like

882
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: snorting lines of of like crystallized blood or something or something.

883
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's supposed to be crystallized blood. Um. So,

884
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe they ran across the same sort

885
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: of research when they were putting together to that film.

886
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: That's funny. Would it be different snorted than it would

887
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: be just drank um? Well, I don't know. I mean,

888
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't really, it doesn't make a lot of sense

889
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: that the psychological difference. Yeah, I don't know. You get

890
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: the idea. It's like a vampires, they just like blood.

891
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: They'll take it anyway they can get it. They'll drink it,

892
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 1: they'll snort it up their nose, they'll freak a bath

893
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, repaste the blood, smoke the blood. Um. Uh.

894
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: You know, well whatever serves as a useful metaphor for

895
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, for us to use in creating a vampire,

896
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: like the vampire, as addict the vampire, as as you know,

897
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: a moral themed et cetera. Now, going back to what

898
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: we're discussing though, in the possibilities for for synthetic blood,

899
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: if you end up with a blood substitute it is

900
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: actually made from human blood, you know, that's that's depending

901
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: on the hemoglobin. Uh. That would be an interesting scenario, right,

902
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: because you could potentially have fake blood for the vampires

903
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: to keep the vampires at bay that is actually made

904
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: from human blood, but maybe is like you know, it

905
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: is the the result of of blood bank blood that

906
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: has not been fully utilized. So the vampires might not

907
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: be really all that happy about it. But maybe you know,

908
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: you wouldn't behave be having to just bleed yourself dry

909
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: for the vampires. You would. You would have like a

910
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: secondary product that makes them mostly happy. Yeah, they'd be

911
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: helping us deal with medical waste. Yeah, so that would

912
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: that seems kind of like a very very much a

913
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: reduced stature for something like Count Dracula. You know, it's like,

914
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: I know you want to be the lord of the

915
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: night and you know, drink our blood and have a

916
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: serve you. But what if you just gobbled up our

917
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: medical waste? Are you on board? Yes? All right on that.

918
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: We're gonna go ahead and close it out here. We're

919
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: gonna remind everybody that if you want to support the show,

920
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 1: of great thing to do is to rate, review and subscribe.

921
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: If you want to go to stuff to blow your mind,

922
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: dot com. You'll go to our iHeart page. There'll be

923
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: a taverns and merchandise. You can go to our t

924
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 1: shirt shop and check out some cool designs there. That's

925
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: another way you can support the show. Buy a shirt

926
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: with a monster on Huge. Thanks, as always to our

927
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like

928
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

929
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest topic for the future,

930
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact.

931
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com Stuff to

932
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind's production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts.

933
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,520
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934
00:53:48,560 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. This was

935
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Speaker 1: gretudud prop