1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline. I'm very excited because 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: in this podcast episode we are talking about religion. That 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: is something that we normally don't address very often because 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: it is it's pretty controversial. Yeah, I think what is 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: a gun's politics? Religion? The three things that you're not 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: supposed to bring up on a date, write a date 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: or a family dinner. Yeah, but in this podcast, we 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: we can we can tackle the touchy subjects, right. And 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: the reason that I'm excited about this episode on women 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: and Islam in particular, is because we have an expert, 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: even though she doesn't like to call herself an expert. 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: Heina Dotta Boy, who for any skep Chick readers out there, 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: her name might ring a bell because she writes over there, 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: and she initially got in touch with us Caroline in 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: response to our episode on crazy Cat Ladies because she 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: had some clarifications about the that that t Gandhi right, 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: the bacteria, and so she wrote us in and she 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I write for Skeptic And I was like, WHOA, 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: that's so cool. And then I was like, wait, you're 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: writing this book, The Skeptics Guide to Islam. Can we 23 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: talk to you please? Yeah? And he said yes. Yeah. 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: Like like Kristen said, she does hesitate to call herself 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: an expert, but she has a really excellent point of 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: view because she grew up a practicing Muslim and then 27 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: ended up growing up, in her words, to become an atheist, feminist, 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: secular humanist, or she says, in other words, a skeptic writer, yeah, 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: and spending time specifically in the skeptic community. And she'll 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: talk about this more in the interview. She realized that 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: there are a lot of misconceptions out there about Islam, 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: and I felt like it would be so informative for 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: us to have a chat with her about specifically women 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: in Islam, because I feel like there are so many 35 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: stereotypes out there in terms of Islam being just inherently 36 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: repressive for women, the whole thing about whether or not 37 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: women should cover their faces in public, their places like 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: France that have actually banned that out right, And I 39 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: just wanted to get more of an expert perspective on 40 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: what that is because one thing, Caroline, I didn't even 41 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: know about until I've started researching for my chat with 42 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: Tina was that Islam also has a strand of feminism 43 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: within it. There Islamic feminism exists, right and this is 44 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: uh Islamic feminism in particular is sort of fighting from within. 45 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: You could say it's women who are still Muslims, not 46 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: necessarily atheists like Kina, but they are using interpretations of 47 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: the Kuran to educate other women but men also about 48 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: women's rights, uh, you know, religion in general, to sort 49 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: of expand women's roles in their culture. Yes, because these 50 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: female scholars would point out that in some ways the 51 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: Koran is more gender progressive than the Bible was at 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: the times when they were written. And speaking more about 53 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: what Muslim feminism is. Um Um Yasim, who is at 54 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: the Center for Muslim Minorities and Islam Policy Studies at 55 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: Australia's men Nash University, defines a Muslim feminist as a 56 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: person who quote adopts a worldview in which Islam can 57 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: be contextualized and reinterpreted in order to promote concepts of 58 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: equality and equality between men and women, and for whom 59 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,279 Speaker 1: freedom of choice plays an important part in the expression 60 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: of faith and to me, that is certainly not an 61 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: aspect of Islam and women within Islam that we really 62 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: ever hear about in media coverage. About that, I mean 63 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: because I mean, from our perspective sitting here, you and 64 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: I neither of us are um Islamic. We don't have 65 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: an inside view in the Muslim community, and so we 66 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Hina. She'll talk about um Islamic 67 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: feminism later in the podcast, but we want to pick 68 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: a brain about the Skeptics Guide to Islam, her background 69 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: with it, and really just doing a lot of myth 70 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: busting because I think there are a lot of misconceptions 71 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: that need to be cleared up about not only the 72 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: Islamic faith, but women's role specifically in that. So, yeah, 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: should we get to it. Let's get to it. So 74 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: this is my interview with Hina data Boy. You can 75 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: also find her writings on skep Chick, and be sure 76 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: to check out her Kickstarter page for The Skeptics Guide 77 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: to Islam. It has been full funded and she's working 78 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: on it. It's going to come out later this year, 79 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: but with no further ado. Here is my chat with Kina. 80 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: Talk to us about your your personal experience with Islam 81 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: how it. I don't know his influence your outlook, not 82 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: only just on your daily life, but also on religion 83 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: in general, especially now since you identify as an atheist. 84 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I was born into a Muslim family, um, 85 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: which like most religions, generally means you're going to be 86 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: a part of that religion unless your parents take some 87 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: special steps to ensure that you, you know, are some 88 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: sort of independent. Um. My family can trace its roots 89 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: back to India, but we came to the US by 90 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: way of a lot of different countries. And my parents, 91 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: they they always self identified as Muslims, but they got 92 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: really religious when I was about five years old. And 93 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: before that, I grew up in kind of the nineties 94 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: everything you can do, I can do better, girl power mentality. 95 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: But then it kind of got limited because my parents 96 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: got more religious. It kind of went into everything you 97 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: can do that I'm allowed to do, I can do better. 98 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: So I got a little different. And Um, as a Muslim, 99 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: you know, even if you're a man, there's a lot 100 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: of rules and a lot of listen, don't follow all 101 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: the rules, just like a lot of people and a 102 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: lot of religion, sort of choose what they fall and 103 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: what they kind of say, Oh that's the past. Um. 104 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: But I had a lot of trouble with the rules 105 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: for women because this whole being loud and fighting for 106 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,239 Speaker 1: feminism thing, it's not a new thing. I was always 107 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: kind of that way. I never used that word when 108 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: I was a kid. Obviously I hadn't know to use 109 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: the word feminism. But I struggled a lot with it. Um. 110 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: One example would the I kind of have a loud 111 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: voice and I have to moderate it conscientiously. And I 112 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: used to cry about it all the time to one 113 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: of my cousins, saying, you know, I'm not a good 114 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: Muslim woman because my voice isn't low enough. UM. So 115 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: I had a lot of trouble. But I did try 116 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: really really hard. Um. In fact, I realized later that 117 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: I tried harder than a lot of the people I 118 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: knew in my family, people who to this day still 119 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: consider themselves Muslims, but they don't necessarily try to follow 120 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: every single word of every single rule. UM. I tried 121 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: to find a wiggle room that I could find. I 122 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: did find ways to be different, um, and things that 123 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: were more cultural and religious. UM. One example I can 124 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: think of, just off the top of my head is uh. 125 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: The Islamic practice of slaughter Um. It's similar to the 126 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: slaughtering process in Judaism for kosher, and my dad is 127 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: really big on it. And I used to do it 128 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: when I was a kid too, Like I think the 129 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: first time I did, I was like fourteen or fifteen, 130 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: and guys would say, oh, or women even allowed to 131 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: do that? And I'd say, yeah, the Koran doesn't say 132 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: anything against that. What's your problem. I'm so cool, I 133 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: can do this thing. Um. And then there were all 134 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: girls parties that sometimes women would throw, because you know, 135 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: in Islamic culture there's modesty, especially in front of men, 136 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: but women would throw all girls parties so that girls 137 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: could show their hair and do their makeup and show 138 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: off their earrings and cute dresses and all that. And 139 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: but even if those I would dress more conservatively than 140 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: the other girls. So even in my practice, I was 141 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: always a little bit different. Um. And eventually I did 142 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: leave Islam. Um. It was really more for philosophical reasons. 143 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't because I was mad that I was a 144 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: girl or something. Um. But after I left, I completely 145 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: unraveled all those kind of notions of gender that I 146 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: was taught. I sort of consciously picked it all apart um. 147 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: But my gender work did not end. Now I do 148 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: gender work within the secular and skeptical community, so that's 149 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: kind of my background. Well, talk to us about the 150 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: skeptics guide to Islama. You you just mentioned being active 151 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: in the skeptic community, So give me the give me 152 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: the background of why you wanted to do it, progress, 153 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: what what your goal with with writing it is all 154 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: that stuff. When I first became an atheist, I really 155 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: needed just support. I needed to feel like I wasn't 156 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: the only person in the world who had these thoughts um. 157 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: And so I thought out my local atheists and skeptical 158 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: groups and I did find a lot of acceptance, a 159 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: lot of sympathy, but a lot of ignorance. And that 160 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: didn't surprise me necessarily. But I thought that as skeptics 161 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: they would question a little bit more. But you know, 162 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: you don't always question everything. And I don't think a 163 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: lot of those people in that community realized just how 164 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: how many misconceptions that they had. Um. Also, I think 165 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: a lot of them didn't realize and this is again 166 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: going back to the lack of information thing um that 167 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: that they just had one side of the story or 168 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: one element of the story, or that they were unfairly 169 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: taking a single story and projecting it onto the entire 170 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: global Muslim community, which is huge. It's the huge community 171 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: with multiple cultures, multiple sects of the religion, all of that. 172 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: So I found myself constantly correcting and demystifying the same 173 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: things over and over. I kept getting the same questions, 174 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: and after six years I realized, wait a second, there's 175 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: totally room for me to go in and write something. 176 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: And so it started with me um posting a few 177 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: blogs about Islam on sket Chick and seeing what the 178 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: response would be. Um. It might seem obvious now, but 179 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: back then there, I mean, I knew there were a 180 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: lot of X Muslim writers as it was, including a 181 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: lot of X Muslim women who have written There's Aan 182 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: Heirsey Elite the Slim and Miss Reene Mariam Namazi. So 183 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: I thought that writing about Islam was sort of played out. 184 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: As it turns out, it isn't, especially not from my perspective, 185 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: which I'm Western born and raised, but I come from 186 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: a non Western background. So I decided, hey, why not 187 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: see if there's any interest in this book? So I 188 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: started my Kickstarter back in the fall or late summer, 189 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,599 Speaker 1: I'd say, I should say, and the response kind of 190 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: afford me. Um, I got almost double what I asked 191 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: for on Kickstarter. I have a publishing company, and I 192 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: realized that there really is a lot of room for this. 193 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: So after my Kickstarter ended, I was working on my manuscript, 194 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: but then I got invited to speak at all these 195 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: conferences because it was conference season. So my manuscript progress 196 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: was a little bit slowed, but it should be done 197 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: by the end of the year, which means that the 198 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: actual publication will be sometime in spring, just because publishing 199 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: companies take a little bit of time. Uh. Well, you're 200 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: talking about the these common misconceptions that you would encounter, 201 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: questions that you would get over and over again. Um, 202 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: were any of them kind of directly related to aspects 203 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: of like gender and women, especially saying you know your 204 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: experience as you know, finding out that you were a 205 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: woman in uh, you know, an Islamic community, Then would 206 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: would that lead to a lot of questions? Because I 207 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: feel like they're there's so like I said when we 208 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: first started talking, that there's a lot of stereotype and 209 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: tied to specifically the role of gender. Absolutely. Oh yeah, 210 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: you know there's a lot of patronizing hand padding and 211 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: head padding, like so good of you to escape, as 212 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: if you know, I've been in some kind of death 213 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: calls and have gotten away, and you know, I sort 214 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: of look. I understood that people meant well, but I 215 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: sort of look up them and go, well, what do 216 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: you mean. It's not like my parents never let me 217 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: out of the house or anything. I mean, I started 218 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: college and I was still a Muslim. Um they let 219 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: me out of the house for that at least. UM. 220 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: But the main thing is that there's this sort of 221 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: I call it the myth of the monolith, the idea 222 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: that Islam is one thing. Muslims have, one single set 223 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: of beliefs. That's what they all believe. That's what they 224 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: always will believe. It will never change. And part of 225 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: it is that Muslims sometimes inadvertently perpetuated because they like 226 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: to talk about how Islam is more united than Christianity 227 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: or that there's fewer interpretations, but the reality doesn't quite 228 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: match that. UM. If the Muslim community worldwide spans so 229 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: many countries, cultures, languages, interpretations, UM, different families have different 230 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: rules I mean, my family was particularly strict in some ways, 231 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: but there were families that were stricter and families that 232 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: were a little bit looser UM. And so it's not 233 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: as clear cut and not as easy to define as 234 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: as people like to think it is UM. And if 235 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: you turn it around in a lot of ways, I 236 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: would say that UM western to Muslimize Western women have 237 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: just as many repressions to them. I don't necessarily agree 238 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: with it under percent, but this is something that a 239 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: lot of muslimomen will bring up. The idea of the 240 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: beauty myths. How much of a choice is it to 241 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: shave your legs in your armpits? As a Western woman, 242 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of a loaded question, but we get a 243 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: lot of societal pressure to force us to do a 244 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: lot of things that sort of playing into the whole 245 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: beauty miss um. You know you're not. There's no Holy 246 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: book telling you that must shave your arms and legs 247 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: unless you count Cosmo or something. But you know, if 248 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: you don't shave your arms and legs, you get some 249 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: level of social shaming and pressure to do it. And 250 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: so it's similar and with an Islam yeah, there are rules, 251 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: but how much you follow them really depends on how 252 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: much social pressure you get, And there are a lot 253 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: more Muslim women that don't cover their heads than there 254 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: are women in general who don't change their arms and 255 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: legs in American society. I would say, yeah, I mean 256 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: that that what you're saying totally reminds me of the 257 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: question that I wanted to ask you about, um, the 258 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: whole commentary around head coverings and burkas and uh, specifically 259 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: like when when France was passing that law, I just 260 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: remember reading so so many articles actually on on both 261 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: sides of women saying like, yes, absolutely, this is you know, 262 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: it's completely repressive. And obviously these were like white women 263 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: saying that, and then on the other side hearing like 264 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: from women who wore head coverings or face coverings and 265 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: actually felt a form of liberation from that. So I 266 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: was wondering what your what your thoughts are on on 267 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: kind of those those issues. Generally, banning something doesn't necessarily 268 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: make change sort of the culture around it. So even 269 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: if we are assuming that Muslim women are forced to cover, 270 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: which is not necessarily the best assumption, banning them from 271 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: entering the public square doesn't help matters because it sort 272 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: of forces them to be home. It forces them to 273 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: be away from public discourse. So even if our goal 274 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: were to be let's have fewer women covering, forcing them 275 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: away from public interaction isn't necessarily the best way to 276 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: go about it. And then to look at it a 277 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: little more deeply, when I was a mustli woman, I 278 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: considered myself liberated through covering because I didn't have to 279 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: submit to beauty norms. I didn't have to wake up 280 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: at the crack of dawn and curl my hair and 281 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: put makeup on and what I assumed Western women did, 282 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: which may or may not be true, but you know, 283 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: in essence, I could get up and put my head 284 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: scarf on, and I thought I was being judged for 285 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: my intellect rather than my body, and so I found 286 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: liberation through it. So I don't think it's fair to 287 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: sort of tell people, well, you must feel this way 288 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: about this thing, um, and that you know, the more 289 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: the more we engage and interact with each other really 290 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: just overall, the better. As as platitudinous as that might sound, 291 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: well in your experience, Um, when you know you moved 292 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: away from the religion, I'm assuming there was time when 293 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: you you probably decided to stop wearing a head covering. 294 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: Did you feel I mean, do you feel now kind 295 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: of outside of Islam more of the measure of these 296 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: the beauty myth, the beauty ideals and and all of that. Oh. Absolutely, 297 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: because I don't live in them withlim country, live in 298 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: the United States, and I have my whole life. I 299 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: didn't feel much pressure from people to cover my head. Um. 300 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: I felt pressure from within my religion. But you know, 301 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: it wasn't like outsiders would goak at me if I 302 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: didn't wear a headscarf and not I don't wear a headscarf. 303 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: I do feel a lot of pressure. I mean, I 304 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: have naturally curly hair, I don't straighten it, and I 305 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: live in southern California. This does make me an object 306 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: of of sort of oddity. You know. I get people 307 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: touching my hair without my permission and saying things like, oh, 308 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: I know a great product to fix that problem, and 309 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: I'll look at them sort of thing, what problem exactly? Um, 310 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: I don't My body isn't necessarily the ideal. I'm sure 311 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: all women think that way, but I definitely fall outside 312 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: the norm in a lot of ways. And yeah, I 313 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: I have to think about it more. I have to 314 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: sort of realize that now every piece of who thing 315 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: I wear, every choice I make in terms of my hair, 316 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: my makeup, my nails, even it's making a statement in 317 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: a way that I kind of didn't expect. So I 318 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: have to think about these things a lot more, and 319 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: it can feel a little bit overwhelming sometimes, especially at 320 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: first it was really overwhelming. What are some I mean, 321 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: we've kind of talked about some of the common misconceptions 322 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: just in terms of people assuming that, like you said, 323 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: the myths of the monoliths, saying hey, well, you know, 324 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: all Muslims everywhere must believe and act the exact same way, 325 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: which obviously is is wrong. And we've touched the on 326 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: um on the head coverings and stuff. But what are 327 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: um I guess some other misconceptions about um maybe gender 328 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: in or at least from your experience of gender in 329 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: uh Muslim communities, just and also the idea that that 330 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: it's inherently repressive for women, because I feel like that 331 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: that is something that does that's all. There's always the 332 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: undercurrent of that and almost like every every media coverage 333 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: that I will will read about it. Well, I mean, 334 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I do a lot of work with feminism 335 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: in secularism, and it's it's Bear's repeating. Patriarchy is pretty 336 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: much everywhere, and you can find it in everything. I 337 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: thought that by entering the secular community, I'd be stepping 338 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: away from patriarchy. I believe this too, you know. I thought, oh, well, 339 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: religion must be the root of all this sexism and 340 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: double standard and all that. And then I get in 341 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: the secular community and well it was still there. Um. 342 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: So no matter where you go, there's some element of 343 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: sexism in the world, and it's worth sort of fighting 344 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: against and it's worth bucking, of course, um, And brave 345 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: women all over the world buck the trend no matter 346 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: what tradition they come from. But it's it's there, and 347 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: it's everywhere. Um. In terms of Islam itself, um, the 348 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: monolithic thing, it comes up a lot, especial when you 349 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: talk about Muslim practices and the actual Arabic terms. I 350 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: find that a lot of outsiders will use the word 351 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: borka to mean any kind of head covering, which is 352 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: really inaccurate. If you don't know the terms. I just 353 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: would advise saying headcovering or face covering. Um, Borka is 354 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: actually particular garment. That would be like me calling your 355 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: T shirt a button down. It just doesn't make any sense. Um. 356 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: Another one is a big one actually in terms of misconceptions, 357 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: is that Muslim women cannot inherit. A Muslim women actually 358 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: can inherit. They just inherit less than men do. And 359 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: that is tied into the Islamic notion that men are 360 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: providers and whatever money that they have goes towards their family, 361 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: whereas if a woman has money, it's hers. She doesn't 362 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: have to give it to her children or husband or 363 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: share with them at all. So um, Muslim woman can inherit, 364 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: just less. Um. There's another, I guess kind of related 365 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: miss that Muslim women are not allowed to work. That's 366 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: actually not true, and especially because in the Islamic marriage, 367 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: a Musli woman actually is not required to do childcare 368 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: or housework. She is permitted to put into her marriage 369 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: contract with her husband. I don't want to do any 370 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: housework and I don't want to do any childcare, and 371 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: you have to hire a maid for that. So if 372 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: she chooses to do that, that frees up a lot 373 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: of times, so she could definitely work if she wanted 374 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: to do that. Um. Another big myth is that multiple 375 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: wives are commonplace. It's not commonplace at all from Muslim 376 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: women to be one of many wives. UM. Just financial reasons, 377 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: because according to Islamic law, a man can have up 378 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: to four wives, but he has to treat each with 379 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: exact equality. So if you buy a giant house, a 380 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: diamond ring, and a Mercedes bends for one wife, if 381 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: you take another wife, well that's what you also have 382 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: to do. So most Muslim when men just can't afford 383 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: to have more than one wife, UM, another one. And 384 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: this is one that people will sometimes even sort of 385 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: oddly directly asked me. They'll say things like do you 386 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: have a forced marriage or an arrange marriage? Um. While 387 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: it is pretty common for Muslim women to have some 388 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: sort of arrangement going on with their marriage, at least 389 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: in the sense that their parents will introduce them to 390 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: someone or engage in some sort of matchmaking, UM, forcing 391 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: to a girl to marry is explicitly prohibited in Islam. 392 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: You're supposed to ask her permission and get her consent 393 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: at least in some way, so that's definitely out. UM. 394 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: Another one is that all women who are covered would 395 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: force themselves or have been forced to cover. Um, that's 396 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: that could be true. I mean, I know there are 397 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: girls out there who have been forced to cover, and 398 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say that it never happens. But 399 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: that's not always true, and it's not fair to assume 400 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: that that's the case. Um. And again we get back 401 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: to the armpit and leg shaving. Are we forced to 402 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: do that on some level we are? On some level 403 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: we aren't. So it just it depends on the situation. 404 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: Another one, this is getting into I guess a little 405 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: bit more of the icky nous factor um or I 406 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,479 Speaker 1: see ickyness because people have sometimes directly asked me questions 407 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: about it about me personally, and I find it kind 408 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: of weird, but it's worth addressing. And that's about the 409 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: hyman um. People sometimes will say things like, oh, well, 410 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: if a girl doesn't bleed on her wedding night and 411 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: she's Muslim, she gets killed. Right. That's actually more the 412 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: Old Testament than the Koran. The Kuran actually says that 413 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: if you marry. If a man marries a woman and 414 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: she does not bleed on her wedding night unless he 415 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: can he has any kind of credible evidence to prove 416 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: that she isn't she has had sex before marriage. He 417 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: has to believe her because she is a Muslim woman 418 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: and she should not lie. And so you know that 419 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: the whole idea of muslim ending obsessed with hyman. It 420 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: might be true in certain Muslim cultures, but in the 421 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: Koran itself, unless he has evidence against her, he cannot 422 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: assume his new bride is not a virgin if she 423 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: as she is um And this last one I kind 424 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: of want to go over a little bit. I was 425 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: surprised to hear because I had always heard this about 426 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: Jews and Catholics, but I've had non Muslims asked me, Hey, 427 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: you know, so Muslims have sex through a sheet, right? 428 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: And I the first time someone asked me that, I laughed. 429 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, where are you getting this information from. I've 430 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: never even heard of this, but I've had more than 431 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: one person asked me. So I thought it bared mentioning 432 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: Muslims don't have sex through a hole in the sheet. 433 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: That's something I've heard about Jews and Catholics, and I've 434 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: heard that it's not true about them either, So that's 435 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: definitely not true. It's kind of funny in a way 436 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: because I feel like any outside group to mainstream Christianity 437 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: somehow gets demonized with the same myth about the sex sheet. Well, 438 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: your kicks are a page also mentioned on there. When 439 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: you're you're talking about what you're going to address in 440 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: the Skeptics Guide Islam, you mentioned the seventy two visions 441 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: and pubic care maintenance. So I wanted to know why 442 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: why you put those out there. I assume that's another 443 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: Those are two things you know that might come up 444 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: a lot or um Why why I mentioned this talking 445 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: about the seventy two versions and pubic hare maintens and 446 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: what and what specifically do you want to um clear 447 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: up at the Skeptics Guide about those two points. Well, 448 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: one of the very first things I wrote about Islam 449 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: on the blog was about the seventy two virsions. I 450 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: was just tired of of this question because people people 451 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: won't even present it as a question. They'll sort of 452 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: make a crack about it or joke about it. They'll 453 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: be like, oh, ha ha, you know, if you had 454 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: been stayed Muslim and you you're you and your husband 455 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: had died, you would have seventy two versions of Heaven. 456 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: How can you compete with that? Ha ha? Or what 457 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: if those seventy two versions turned out to be angry 458 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: nuns or World of Warcraft players. Um. You know, people 459 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: make a lot of jokes about it, but that's because 460 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: all they've heard is the term seventy two versions. Um. 461 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: Just the term itself is a little bit deceptive in translations, 462 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: because in classical Arabic, seventy two is meant to be 463 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: a number. It would be similar to me saying to you, 464 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: if I told you once, I told you a thousand times. Um, 465 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 1: I don't literally mean I've said it to you a 466 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: thousand times. I mean I've said it to you a 467 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: lot of times. And so seventy two is intended to 468 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: mean many or a lot or more than you could 469 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: ever imagine. And virgins um is another thing where people 470 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: go wrong. They think it means, you know, some sort 471 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: of shy, shrinking woman or an inexperienced woman or something 472 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: along those lines. Um. The concept of virgins is the 473 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: ultimate in sort of sexual pleasure. Is not one that's 474 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: limited to Muslim culture or Arabic culture. Um. It's something 475 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: that until very recently was very common in Western culture. 476 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: You know, you can read historical books and documents and 477 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: stuff that talk about you know, the pleasures of betting 478 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: a virgin and all that. So it goes back to 479 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: that sort of I mean, pretty patriarchal, misogynistic notion granted, 480 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: but this idea that a virgin, untouched woman is the 481 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: best that a man could ever have. Um. So seventy 482 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: two virgins is essentially a way of saying as much 483 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: sexual pleasures you could ever want. Um. And another big 484 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: misconception associated with that is that the versions are going 485 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: to be people, whereas in Islam the virgins or who 486 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: are ring which are called don't even try to pronounce 487 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: that it's okay, Um, the virgins are created by a 488 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: lot of specifically for heaven, so there as I jokingly 489 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of called them heavenly sexpots. So that's what they're 490 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: supposed to be. Um. And in terms of pupid hair maintenance, 491 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: this is sort of a specific instance. But um, not 492 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: the first time it happened, or not the last time 493 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: it happened, but the first time it happened. Um. It 494 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: was this guy new and he was kind of crass, 495 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: I guess, as far as people go. And he had 496 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: a sing for Middle Eastern women and he was telling 497 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: me about how he was telling one of his jim 498 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: buddies that he wasn't really into white women, he was 499 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: really into Middle Eastern women. Um, and his Jim buddy 500 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: laughed and said, oh, ha ha, you need a machete 501 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: to get through that pubic hair. And I kind of 502 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: looked at him, and he said, what's what's wrong with that? 503 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, Middle Eastern women tend to have more hair. 504 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: I said, yeah, but in Islam actually, and this is 505 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: not always practiced by every group I've been finding, But 506 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: the way I was always taught, and the interpretation that 507 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: I always got, is that Muslim men and women are 508 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: required to keep their pubic hair and armpit hair maintained. Um, 509 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: it's not supposed to exceed the grain of the length 510 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: of a grain of rice. So um. When I hit puberty, 511 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: my mom handed me a razor and told me to shave. 512 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: Really yeah, And I had never even shaved my arms 513 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: or legs. I was like, and when I got my period, 514 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: so I was very confused, and I said, what do 515 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: you mean shave? What what are you talking about? And 516 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: my mom, you know, she was raised in kind of 517 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: a more shy culture where they don't really talk about 518 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: the body, and so she managed to communicate to me 519 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: that I was supposed to shave my mom's and it 520 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: was it was very weird um for me. But you know, 521 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: that's actually one of the it's part of the body 522 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 1: purity laws in Islam that men and women are supposed 523 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: to keep their pupid hare trimmed or shaved. I did 524 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: not know that most people don't. Well, what what are 525 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: your thoughts on Islamic feminism, because from stuff that I 526 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: had been reading in preparation for our interview, it seems 527 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: like they're um Like, one of the prevailing ideas behind 528 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: Islamic feminism is that um actually, like the Koran and 529 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: the guidelines that are outlined were gender revolutionary in a 530 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 1: way here to what other things that were going on 531 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: um at at the time in terms of gender relations. So, um, 532 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: if you could, let's know a little bit like what 533 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: what it is and kind of what what you think 534 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: about it As an atheistic, secularist feminist. Well, when I 535 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: was kind of transitioning out of Islam, I did read 536 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: up a lot about Islamic feminism, and I was always 537 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: kind of a fan of it in the sense that 538 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: I sort of saw it as unraveling what we're kind 539 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: of the patriarchal structures within Islamic cultures versus Islam itself, 540 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: and so I always liked that idea of going back 541 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: to basics, going back to the Quran and Mohammed's example 542 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: as opposed to what culture had to say about it UM. 543 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: Now that I'm away from it UM, I really just 544 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: admire people who do work in Islamic feminism. They seem 545 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: really brave to me because they often make a lot 546 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: more enemies because they're doing things that go against what 547 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: people think is Islam but really isn't. UM. And in 548 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: the work of insiders within any religion is always more 549 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: credible and helpful than outsiders. So I'm doing what I 550 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: can to increase secular people's understanding of Islam and UM. 551 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: Muslim feminists and progressives do their part to reform from inside, 552 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: and they often can have way more of an effect 553 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: than someone like me can to the actual Islamic community. UM. 554 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: One example I can give just off the top of 555 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: my head is Irshad Manji. She is a Muslim progressive 556 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: out of Canada. She's a out lesbian as a matter 557 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: of fact, and she came up when UM when I 558 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: first left Islam because my parents took me to see 559 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: this mom up in northern California and he and I 560 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: were talking and he said something about her, and I said, oh, well, 561 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: she's a progressive and a feminist and a lesbian. How 562 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: can you even bring her up? And he said, well, 563 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: she's at least inside the house, and by that he 564 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: meant that she's at least within the framework of Islam. 565 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: She calls herself a Muslim, so she can do a 566 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: lot more work in terms of someone like her in 567 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: any case, not necessarily just her, but she can do 568 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: a lot of works for reform and bring some changes 569 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: about in the Muslim community than someone like me can. 570 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: So I definitely give them a lot of props. What about, um, 571 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: what are you talking about reform from the inside? What 572 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: about men in the community. I mean, I'm going to 573 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: assume that they're uh, there have to be men who are, 574 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to do similar things in terms of 575 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: gender equity. There definitely are. I mean, it's just, um, 576 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: a lot of them are Western educated in some way, 577 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: so that kind of taints them a little bit sometimes 578 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: in the eyes of certain Muslim groups. But there are 579 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: there are definitely Muslim men who are working to make 580 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: things better for women in the Muslim community. So yeah, 581 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: they they they definitely exist. It's just it's tough going 582 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: for them. I have a lot easier, so I, you know, 583 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: I just pass off to them. Really, now, this this 584 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: might sound like a really basic question as well, but UM, 585 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: just for uh to help enlightened listeners and myself as well, like, 586 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: what are some when you will be talking about reforming 587 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: from the inside inside, what are some of the major 588 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: kinds of reform that um uh, you know, Azamic feminists 589 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: and people more in your position would be advocating for U. 590 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: We'll definitely uh. There's there's a lot of work against 591 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: any sort of forcing because when you have a societies 592 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: where men have all the power and women don't necessarily 593 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: have as much of a say in terms of the 594 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: legal side of things, you get a lot of situations 595 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: where you know, things are are not necessarily allowed legally, 596 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: but that's kind of how the practice goes. So it 597 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: depends on what country you're talking about. UM. One problem 598 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: within my own community, which is the Indian in Pakistani 599 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: Muslim community, is a forced marriage. It's not huge, it's 600 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: not like everybody's getting a forced marriage, but it happens. Especially, 601 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: you'll hear about immigrant families sending their kid to their 602 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: home or origin country for a vacation and then they'll 603 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: end up getting married and they'll take away their passport 604 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: and things like that. So there actually is a bureau 605 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 1: in England against forced marriage because the Indian Muslim community 606 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,919 Speaker 1: is so big there. So that's one particular concern, um, 607 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: but in general, just working against the idea that you 608 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: can force women to do anything, and also the idea 609 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: that um, like you were talking about Islamic feminism, this 610 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,479 Speaker 1: notion that Islam was revolutionary in terms of gender roles 611 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: and just sort of bringing it back to that because 612 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: you'll go to Muslim countries and they won't actually actually 613 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: allow women to inherit or their force women to get 614 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: married and things like that, and that's not supposed to 615 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: be allowed in Islam. So a lot of Islamic feminists 616 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: and Muslim progressives will say things like, well, we need 617 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: to go back to the values of the Quran. Um. 618 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it just depends on the country. I guess 619 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: there is a major takeaway or anything that we that 620 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: I didn't ask you specifically about in terms of women gender, um, 621 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: anything like that. Um, that you would like listeners to 622 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: to take away from this conversation, what what might it be? Well, um, well, 623 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: I guess mainly it's two things, and it bears repeating 624 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: about the monolith. Just really people need to realize that 625 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: they have a texture to nuanced understanding about their own 626 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: cultures and their own religions. They need to understand that 627 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: other cultures and other religions have that exact same thing 628 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: going on, where different people have different ideas and it's 629 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily safe to walk in with all these loaded assumptions. 630 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: And the second thing would be to listen to more 631 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: voices than just my I speak from my particular perspective 632 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: as someone who is born, raised and educated in the 633 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: West but comes from a Muslim background and I no 634 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: longer believe in Islam. But there are lots of Muslim 635 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: voices out there. There an infinite number of blogs written 636 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: by Muslim women. Um, there are other x Muslims who 637 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: speak as well. There are Westerners who live in in 638 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,439 Speaker 1: non Western countries and deal with muslimomen all the time. 639 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: There are so many voices out there, and people just 640 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: need to sort of texture their own understanding by getting 641 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: out there and actually exposing themselves to those voices. Well. 642 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: Especial thanks to Hina for talking with us about this 643 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: very interesting topic. I think she really enlightened us in particular. 644 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: I hope she also enlightened you guys out there listening. 645 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: And if you listeners have anything to comment on, any 646 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: perspectives you'd like to share, questions you'd like to ask, 647 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,240 Speaker 1: please hit us up. Our email address is mom stuff 648 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. Yeah, and if you'd like to 649 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: do any further reading about this UM, I recommend checking 650 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: out the Muslim Women's League website as well. It's m 651 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: w L USA dot org and they have UM all 652 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: sorts of topics that they talk about UM, especially from 653 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: different gendered perspectives. But yes, big thanks to Hina for 654 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: talking about us, because uh, he was really cool to 655 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: get the perspective of someone who has been inside that 656 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: community now is sort of outside the community, but still 657 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, it gives you a unique perspective on things, 658 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: and any Muslim listeners especially shoot us an email moms 659 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com or find us on Facebook. And 660 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: now back to our letters. We've got a couple here 661 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: on our episode about Guidacologists Office one oh one and 662 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: I have one here from David and here rights. First, 663 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: let me say that I am a gay forty year 664 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: old man. I have never been nor have I needed 665 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: a guy. No. However, I was really appreciative of the 666 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: information about goes on and here's why I work as 667 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: a certified community based sign language interpreter. While getting my 668 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: bea and interpreting, I was being asked to interpret for 669 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: a gynecological visit. Since this was an assessment on my skills, 670 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 1: it was taped with permission. During the visit, I realized 671 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: that I had no clue what anything in that office was. 672 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: This includes the woman in her parts too, uterus, cervix, vagina, 673 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: and moore were thrown out. Mentally, I was overwhelmed when 674 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: my esteemed instructor, an older woman with many years of 675 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: experience in the field, provided feedback. The one line that 676 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: stood out for me was this, David, it is very 677 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: clear you have no idea how the female body works. 678 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: You may want to take some time to study that 679 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: in depth. Thanks again for the show, and thank you 680 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: David for that delightful email. I I really like knowing 681 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: when we can educate people for whatever purpose. Yes, we 682 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: sign language or resign language. Okay, Well, this one is 683 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: from Melissa. She said, you want to add a couple 684 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: of things to our topic. She says, I happen to 685 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: have a male gynecologist and I wouldn't trade him in 686 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: a heartbeat. He and his staff are friendly, insightful, and informative. 687 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: When I am getting examined by him, there's always a 688 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: nurse present in the room. The reason for this is 689 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: both a legal one and a time one. Legal in 690 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: the sense that if for any reason the patient tried 691 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: to bring a lawsuit for inappropriateness by the doctor towards 692 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: the patient, there is always a third party and it 693 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: is not a he said she said issue. Also, as 694 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: a timesaver, the nurse is there to assist the doctor 695 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: with any implements or tools and general procedures. I'd like 696 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: to add in two more tips as well to help 697 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: the ladies while they are being examined. For me, it 698 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: has always helped to make small talk with the doctor 699 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: and nurse to help ease any nervousness, and it provides 700 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: a good distraction throughout the examination. It is also very 701 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 1: important that your female listeners not feel embarrassed or ashamed 702 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: about their lady bits because the gynecologist has seen all 703 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: shapes and sizes and it is no different than them 704 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: looking through their own anatomy books. Good point. We lista 705 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: thank you Yes excellent things to keep in mind and 706 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone who has written to moms Stuff at 707 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com. You can also message us on Facebook, 708 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: Like us there. While you're at it, you can follow 709 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You can find 710 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,399 Speaker 1: us on Tumbler as well. It's stuff I've Never Told 711 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: You dot tumbler dot com. And if you would like 712 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: to get smarter this week, you should head over to 713 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: our website It's how Stuff Works dot com for more 714 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how 715 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com