Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like
Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information
Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.
Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us
Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get
Speaker 1: this started. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we are sitting down with Alta and Donate from
Speaker 1: Ziliac Law. And she is a an attorney and she's
Speaker 1: a professor. She works in antitrust, financial services, money laundering,
Speaker 1: things like that, and we have a really interesting conversation.
Speaker 1: We get into what's going on with the regulations with
Speaker 1: finance shutting down to US customers, bit tricks and Poloniac
Speaker 1: shutting off certain assets to US customers, What that means
Speaker 1: for the US, what that means for the world. We
Speaker 1: also get into further discuss stions on regulations, talking about
Speaker 1: the US and China trade wars, what's going on with that,
Speaker 1: how that could be proxy for other wars, and again
Speaker 1: what that means for US and Chinese investors moving forward.
Speaker 1: This is a very important conversation helps us to understand
Speaker 1: what is happening now, but also what's happened in the future,
Speaker 1: and as an investor, you need to be paying attention.
Speaker 1: So let's jump right into this. All right, Welcome everybody
Speaker 1: to the Market Disruptors Podcast. Today we are joined by
Speaker 1: Alta Andoni with Ziliak Law. She is a an attorney
Speaker 1: that focuses on financial services, money laundering, antitrust, and blockchain
Speaker 1: technology stuff. She's also a professor at the Chicago Kent
Speaker 1: College of Law, and so she's got this really unique
Speaker 1: perspective on a bunch of different topics. There's so much
Speaker 1: stuff we could talk about today. We'll try and keep
Speaker 1: it short for you guys. But anyway, Alta, welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Thank you so much Mark for having me
Speaker 1: here today. Yeah, awesome, I'm super excited about this. So
Speaker 1: um so, so just kind of set this up. I
Speaker 1: I kind of announced who you were, but why don't
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about your background and
Speaker 1: how you got involved into the crypto space and what
Speaker 1: you're doing. Of course, of course I'd love to do that.
Speaker 1: And uh so you mentioned that I'm an attorney. I'm
Speaker 1: an attorney by training, as I always say, and I'm
Speaker 1: also a professor and a junct professor of Chicago can
Speaker 1: and professor for School of American Law at Chicago Ken
Speaker 1: where a lecture on anti dress law, International business trans sections,
Speaker 1: comparative Law. I do travel around the world because we
Speaker 1: have all our branches around the world, and I love
Speaker 1: to do this and UH UH meeting all the international
Speaker 1: students and then they come back to Chicago, Kent and
Speaker 1: UH finalize their studies in the LM in that specific
Speaker 1: UH law area that they're going to graduate. I also
Speaker 1: right now I am the head of blockchain practice at
Speaker 1: Zelia Law, where I helped my client and kind of
Speaker 1: brows this very into interesting industry and help them with
Speaker 1: different areas on UH compliance with our securities law and
Speaker 1: UH ky C and mL etcetera. I loved to work
Speaker 1: in this space because I find it very interesting and
Speaker 1: the way how I got involved we all have that
Speaker 1: rabbit hole, as we UH call it. UH myself was
Speaker 1: mostly on academic side because I love to research, and
Speaker 1: obviously I heard about bitcoin very early. But then when
Speaker 1: I when I read the Bitcoin paper, I was a
Speaker 1: little bit skeptical about how much I mean, this virtual
Speaker 1: currency can UH can achieve, you know, But then in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seventeen, I lectured in China, and it
Speaker 1: was quite interesting that when I was going out with
Speaker 1: my students for lunches or dinners, like, I could hear
Speaker 1: like everybody talk about bitcoin, and especially these old couples,
Speaker 1: and I was like, since everyone is so excited about becoing,
Speaker 1: definitely I have to explore this further because it looks
Speaker 1: like something big is coming up for the more. In Chicago,
Speaker 1: cant we have like different conferences on fintech and we
Speaker 1: have like some great speakers coming each year. So that
Speaker 1: was another area that kind of pushed me to explore
Speaker 1: this industry a little bit further and to kind of
Speaker 1: combine my previous experience in intellectual property and financial market
Speaker 1: compliance together. And uh, that's why right now I'm talking
Speaker 1: UM mostly concentrated and focusing more on crypto and blockchain technology. Great,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's awesome. I'm curious you said when you
Speaker 1: first UM read the white paper you were skeptical. Now,
Speaker 1: were you skeptical of the technology or were you skeptical
Speaker 1: of again mass adoption or were you skeptical of if
Speaker 1: if regulated regulators whatever allow it to grow? What were
Speaker 1: your skeptical. I was more and that is a great question.
Speaker 1: Actually I was more scraped skeptical about the mass adoption.
Speaker 1: And it's not that I want to state that I
Speaker 1: was right, but even right now we don't have like
Speaker 1: a mass adoption when it comes to crypto. So I
Speaker 1: was like, and I tried to explain this, uh to
Speaker 1: several people, like even in my own family, like my husband.
Speaker 1: He's a technology guy, and he was in the moment
Speaker 1: that I explained to him, he was not a big believer,
Speaker 1: and and and and not only him, but you know,
Speaker 1: crypto is quite an interesting concept for people, but you
Speaker 1: really have to understand the technology behind it, and you
Speaker 1: really have to understand how functions and what are like
Speaker 1: some uh, some characteristics that really make this kind of
Speaker 1: stand out. Well yes and no though, right, So, like
Speaker 1: I think with any new technology, g first of all,
Speaker 1: we have to realize it takes time and you have
Speaker 1: to be patient in the beginning. The true believers they
Speaker 1: want to know that. But um, you know, if you
Speaker 1: look at the Internet, it it took you know, from
Speaker 1: the darker days, you know, thirty years before it rich
Speaker 1: reached adoption. And um, you're not anyone that was going
Speaker 1: to use the um, the Internet was like, hey, you
Speaker 1: can send an email, but you don't have to explain
Speaker 1: how the computer digitizes that packet and plugs into an
Speaker 1: Internet and sends the packets over a thing, and then
Speaker 1: the computer opens those packets and puts it back. It like,
Speaker 1: you don't explain that, And so I think that's where
Speaker 1: people get hung up with the blockchain is like, oh,
Speaker 1: let me explain how blockchain works and the different like
Speaker 1: nobody cares, I mean, not not the not the mass adoption, right,
Speaker 1: they just want to notice it works. I agree, But
Speaker 1: how many people do we have right now that they
Speaker 1: don't know how to use the Internet about? Well, I
Speaker 1: mean we'll never get to a percent Like when you
Speaker 1: look at technology cycles, I mean to get like se
Speaker 1: adoption is pretty good, Um we have that? Do we
Speaker 1: have that for the Internet right now? I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to argue, but I do know that even
Speaker 1: for I mean, this is always the counter argument that
Speaker 1: it's kind of brought up for blockchain technology, and I
Speaker 1: don't think that. I mean, obviously we have a much
Speaker 1: more mass adoption for the Internet. But it's just interesting
Speaker 1: Internet to see that so many people still don't know
Speaker 1: what to use the internet out there, so obviously our
Speaker 1: time when it comes to the crypto and the blockchain,
Speaker 1: I say, it takes a couple of generations, you know,
Speaker 1: like I still have, Like you know, obviously there's still
Speaker 1: some grandmothers out there that don't use the Internet. But
Speaker 1: then the kids, the grand kids today will never know
Speaker 1: anything other than that, and so it kind of takes
Speaker 1: a couple of generations sometimes to see a full adoption shift.
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's a that's a great story that you
Speaker 1: have and interesting how you were skeptical of that at first. Um,
Speaker 1: now I know you have like this, uh, you know
Speaker 1: this this kind of specialty and financial services and and
Speaker 1: uh and and and whatnot. We were originally talking about
Speaker 1: the big news that had happened a week ago. Now
Speaker 1: it's kind of being with finance, and now it's kind
Speaker 1: of being overshadowed a little bit by the news that
Speaker 1: broke yesterday about Facebook. But I'm sticking to finance. Um,
Speaker 1: they made a really big news now they're than like
Speaker 1: the largest exchange in the world by volume, and they've
Speaker 1: basically decided to get rid of US customers. What do
Speaker 1: you think about that? Obviously, that was big news, even
Speaker 1: though I I think like this week Facebook Face, Facebook
Speaker 1: news was kind of bigger than finance. I love to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about finance, and personally, I
Speaker 1: was not surprised about this move from Vinance, And obviously
Speaker 1: Finance was not the very first exchange kind of moving
Speaker 1: with this restrictions on market availability because I think, uh,
Speaker 1: and I hope the listeners recall that actually was bit
Speaker 1: fin x uh. If I recall correctly, it was bitwin
Speaker 1: x that began kind of distancing itself from the New
Speaker 1: York users in two thousand seventeen, and they also bear
Speaker 1: the New York customers and then US individual customers. I
Speaker 1: think this was back into August of two thousand seventeen,
Speaker 1: and then they kind of blocked or escalated this to
Speaker 1: banning all US entities in August of two thousand eighteen.
Speaker 1: So we have seen some signs out there, and I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised by the Finance moves. Something that surprises me
Speaker 1: is that, Okay, I think it was on John on
Speaker 1: June one when they announced that their users, uh, they're
Speaker 1: going to start this geo blocking policy to twenty nine countries. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then they're starting I think July one, if I'm
Speaker 1: not mistaken, But then on September twelve, they're claiming that
Speaker 1: they're not going to accept any US users anymore. But
Speaker 1: if you read like that kinda uh uh mmmm announcement
Speaker 1: very carefully, they state that they're going to have apparently
Speaker 1: Finance America is going to be launched at the same time.
Speaker 1: So in my opinion, this was quite a very well
Speaker 1: talked uh strategy or movement on their side. And and
Speaker 1: then previously will So had bit recks. I think bit
Speaker 1: Recks was like last Friday, if I'm not mistaken, and
Speaker 1: it was like very late Friday, which is interesting, like
Speaker 1: how can you advertise this market availability or changes in
Speaker 1: your market market availability like on a very late Friday night,
Speaker 1: because they I don't know if you saw that week
Speaker 1: that they stated that they are following the same move
Speaker 1: that I mean by Polly Necks, and Polly Necks decided
Speaker 1: to block like trading for US customers on nine cryptoccurrencies
Speaker 1: or so, so we have seen like so many of this.
Speaker 1: It's something interesting was even I was not aware of
Speaker 1: tax Exchange, are you like? That was interesting? Like tax
Speaker 1: Exchange they terminated their operation completely on July six. I
Speaker 1: mean obviously because of this regulatory uh kind of which
Speaker 1: exchange tax? No, yeah, no, I just to catch everybody
Speaker 1: up if you're if you haven't been paying attention to
Speaker 1: the news. UM. Like I said, Finance, the largest exchange
Speaker 1: in the world, has decided to get US users off.
Speaker 1: But the previous largest exchanges, which at least in the
Speaker 1: U S were bit Trax and Poloniacs, which used to
Speaker 1: be major players in the space before Finance came up
Speaker 1: and their US based And what they decided at the
Speaker 1: same time as as alto same, is that they decided
Speaker 1: to what they call geo fence or basically make certain
Speaker 1: assets on their exchange UM not tradeable by US residents.
Speaker 1: So the so the assets are still there and they're
Speaker 1: still tradeable by people outside the US, but people inside
Speaker 1: the US aren't able to trade those certain assets UM.
Speaker 1: And then Binance, which is not a US company, just
Speaker 1: decided to kick all US users off, similar to what
Speaker 1: bit fin X has done. Now it's kind of different.
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts onto why Binance wouldn't have
Speaker 1: just um restricted access to certain assets by US A
Speaker 1: residents similar to Bittricks or poloni X versus just kicking
Speaker 1: everybody off and trying to start a completely different UM exchange. Uh.
Speaker 1: I think that that's a great question mark I but
Speaker 1: I think that uh Binance is kind of concentrated, mostly
Speaker 1: especially lately, and kind of setting this industry standard. And
Speaker 1: why am I saying that? I I mean, obviously I
Speaker 1: follow CZ and I think that despite whatever other things him,
Speaker 1: I think of finance, I think that he's a hard worker,
Speaker 1: he's a smart guy, he's a visionary in this space.
Speaker 1: But I did see a very interesting tweet from him,
Speaker 1: UH that he mentioned that, UH, first of all, if
Speaker 1: you are going to consider UM, I think someone kind
Speaker 1: of asked him the question like why did you do this?
Speaker 1: Like why did you uh kind of stand up? Why
Speaker 1: didn't you not stand up to the US regulators? And
Speaker 1: what's interesting because he mentioned that you have to read
Speaker 1: the book The Starfish and the Spider, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I kind of search that a little bit more
Speaker 1: and I found out that he's pretty much referring to
Speaker 1: this analogy that or he's contrasting this to the decentralized
Speaker 1: companies and how decentralized companies kind of can change this ace. UH.
Speaker 1: The spider and the starfish analogy re first pretty much
Speaker 1: to the contrasting biological nature of this respective organism. You know,
Speaker 1: so starfish having this decentralized neural structure and kind of
Speaker 1: permitting this regeneration and so pretty much if you cut
Speaker 1: uh if you cut off a spider's head, it dies,
Speaker 1: but then if you cut off the starfish, legs grows,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So use kind of very
Speaker 1: interesting analogy in his perspective. So I kind of like that,
Speaker 1: and I like to see these exchanges to be a
Speaker 1: little bit more compliant in this space, and I'm very
Speaker 1: happy to see that, especially from violence. And the other
Speaker 1: thing is that, uh, not only they're concentrating most mostly
Speaker 1: on this compliance in this space. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I hope that we're not going to have this feedback
Speaker 1: like we got with nance. And what do I mean
Speaker 1: by that, Like always we have like two camps in
Speaker 1: this industry, and one or the first camp is, hey,
Speaker 1: has this industry industry being sufficiently self regulated or actually
Speaker 1: do we need a little bit more regulation, And of course,
Speaker 1: like that's a very good question. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: what sort of regulation or what sort of regulatory certainty
Speaker 1: are these exchanges looking for Yeah, I'm just curious though,
Speaker 1: like what that regulate regulation is? Right, So, um, what
Speaker 1: we've seen again back to Batricks and Polonis, they've restricted
Speaker 1: assets certain assets to US residents. But the list, the
Speaker 1: list seems to be different across exchanges. So coin base
Speaker 1: seems to have like their own list that they think
Speaker 1: um of coins that are that are good Polonia x Batricks,
Speaker 1: they seem to work off of different lists. Is that
Speaker 1: is that true? And if so, why is that? I
Speaker 1: think that's true. And I think that each and every
Speaker 1: one of these exchanges, obviously they have their own legal
Speaker 1: councils and this is not legal advice, but of course
Speaker 1: that they get like different uh legal advice from their councils.
Speaker 1: I mean, some of them are very conservative and some
Speaker 1: of them know and I'm not saying that they know
Speaker 1: the space much better than the other ones, but this
Speaker 1: is one of those industries that you really have to
Speaker 1: keep up to date. And UH, if we're going back
Speaker 1: and to the reasons why these exchanges are doing this, like,
Speaker 1: definitely there's some strong reasons because we have seen a
Speaker 1: lot of more actions from our regulatory agencies, from our
Speaker 1: UH regulatory bodies, like we had the statement on Framework
Speaker 1: for Investment UH contract Analysis back in April of I
Speaker 1: mean April of this year, we had UH. Furthermore and more,
Speaker 1: as I said, like actions enforcement actions from the SEC again,
Speaker 1: US Air Force, Baragon and other companies. We right now
Speaker 1: we have the Financial Action Task Form and furthermore, I
Speaker 1: don't know if our listeners are much aware of this,
Speaker 1: but we had a recent guidance also from our US
Speaker 1: Treasury Department, and I think lately they stated that it
Speaker 1: takes I mean, they're taking this broader view when it
Speaker 1: comes to their authority to regulation or to crypto businesses,
Speaker 1: and definitely they're trying to bring a little bit more
Speaker 1: civil uh civil actions and including anti money laundering actions
Speaker 1: because prosecutors obviously they're proceeding with their criminal cases in
Speaker 1: this space. So I think like we are kind of
Speaker 1: tightening up our compliance and our regulatory space right now.
Speaker 1: So that's why I think that these exchanges are feeling
Speaker 1: the need to kind of be a little bit more compliant,
Speaker 1: not a little bit more compliant, but kind of to
Speaker 1: understand exactly that if they want to be compliant in
Speaker 1: the United States, they really have to make sure that
Speaker 1: they follow all the needed steps and comply with our
Speaker 1: regulatory boddies or agency. And the problem is, as you're saying,
Speaker 1: I guess, is that because there's no clear guidance, that's
Speaker 1: why we're seeing a discrepancy in the coins or the
Speaker 1: assets of projects that are being geo fence or blocking
Speaker 1: US residents. Um so, I guess right, that's what you're saying.
Speaker 1: So there's lack of guidance or lack of clarity, and
Speaker 1: that's why some exchanges have some assets and some exchanges
Speaker 1: have other assets. I agree on that, but we're not
Speaker 1: going to have that clear guidance and we have judicial
Speaker 1: decision or a little bit more of a formal SEC
Speaker 1: rulemaking decision, right so for now obviously or expecting what's
Speaker 1: gonna happen with SEC big kick, but right now we
Speaker 1: don't have a little bit more guidance, uh as we
Speaker 1: call it from a precedent. However, I mean, I like
Speaker 1: the involvement of all the players in this in this industry,
Speaker 1: and I like the fact that the SEC especially is
Speaker 1: welcoming all this feedback from all the participants in this space.
Speaker 1: And I think we all should appreciate that. I mean,
Speaker 1: in every single event that one of the representative SEC
Speaker 1: representatives is there, you do see that they do have
Speaker 1: the intention to to help the people understand and how
Speaker 1: to be complied in the space, and furthermore to invite
Speaker 1: them in this dialogue. So I think that is very
Speaker 1: important for all of us. Okay, good, UM, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about what this means for the average person and
Speaker 1: why they should even care about this news. So obviously,
Speaker 1: if you're in the US, you're affected because now you're
Speaker 1: being blocked out of certain things. I guess as an investor,
Speaker 1: there's just because you're blocked out of Finance, which is
Speaker 1: the largest exchange in the world. Um, A lot of
Speaker 1: those assets you can still find on other exchanges to
Speaker 1: buy are exchange for I suppose I think the ones
Speaker 1: that are really affected by this the most are the traders.
Speaker 1: And although I'm a holdler and I think people should
Speaker 1: be investing for the long term, most of the market
Speaker 1: is driven by speculation at this point. That's a new
Speaker 1: technology cycles work, and so the traders are really going
Speaker 1: to suffer because there's no liquidity on these other exchanges.
Speaker 1: It's on bit tricks. So what do you think that means?
Speaker 1: I guess in the short term or maybe even the
Speaker 1: long term to US residents, are they just gonna be
Speaker 1: missing out on this or do you think something's gonna
Speaker 1: open up for them in the near future. I'm a
Speaker 1: big believer and I'm not going to comment much of this,
Speaker 1: but I think something is going to happen to open
Speaker 1: up for them in the future. Uh. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: my opinion that maybe I'm being awfully optimistic right now.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, hopefully, hopefully things find a way. Now.
Speaker 1: You had mentioned earlier with with c Z talking about
Speaker 1: the starfish and the spider, and really you're kind of
Speaker 1: referring to decentralized systems, and so then that kind of
Speaker 1: we're talking about exchanges. So of course that leads to
Speaker 1: decentralized exchanges, which for years I've believed and stated that
Speaker 1: I believe it's the most important piece of the entire
Speaker 1: ecosystem because Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are designed to be
Speaker 1: peer to peer, non custodio, non uh you know, without
Speaker 1: counterparty risk, etcetera. And going to a centralized exchange basically
Speaker 1: kills the whole thing. So I believe decentralized exchanges are
Speaker 1: a big thing. Although they haven't really taken off because
Speaker 1: of poor U I U X, poor liquid y, whatever.
Speaker 1: But what do you see being in the future. I mean, obviously,
Speaker 1: as you said, CZ talked about it, they are launching
Speaker 1: their own descent realized exchange, but that essentralized exchange is
Speaker 1: still basically a centralized exchange because they're still controlling access
Speaker 1: like US residents can't um access that. So what do
Speaker 1: you think czs comments and what do you think about
Speaker 1: decentralized exchanges kind of moving forward? Uh, that is another
Speaker 1: great question. And I'm going to go back to the
Speaker 1: analogy that CZ used in history because, as I said,
Speaker 1: I kind of this was an audiobook, Uh, the star
Speaker 1: Fish and the Spider, And it's interesting that they mentioned there.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're aware of the MGM when
Speaker 1: they were trying to crack down on the peer to
Speaker 1: peer music website roxter and uh, and then I think
Speaker 1: they want those lawsuits. And then other groups I think
Speaker 1: was KASA and eMule kind of got uh. They they
Speaker 1: surfaced out of this whole movement. So my point is
Speaker 1: that I think that he's trying to rely mostly on
Speaker 1: the smaller organization that are more like starfish and if
Speaker 1: their limb is kind of uh severed, I mean it
Speaker 1: to me, it looks like he's rely mostly on decentralized decentralization.
Speaker 1: But the problem that I have with that is that
Speaker 1: right now, even in the United States, when we go
Speaker 1: back to the test of being sufficiently decentralized, I don't
Speaker 1: think we're coming up with the right definition what is
Speaker 1: sufficiently decentralized. When does that sufficiently decentralized happen? You know,
Speaker 1: and unless we have and this is not only a
Speaker 1: guidance from the SEC or from our regulators, but I
Speaker 1: think that it's very important for some definitions in this
Speaker 1: space to have a little bit more meaning from all
Speaker 1: for all the participants. Even when it comes to the cryptocurrency,
Speaker 1: what is cryptocurrency? Well, I think I think we have
Speaker 1: a perfect example of what is decentralized right now today,
Speaker 1: right with with Facebook Libra start announcing that they're launching
Speaker 1: their coin, and within the same day you have governments
Speaker 1: all around the world saying, no, you're not stop that. Right, Um,
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna tell Bitcoin to stop that because there's no
Speaker 1: one to tell. Who are they going to tell? Right?
Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect illustration of what is decentralized
Speaker 1: and so, uh, when I talk about a decentralized exchange,
Speaker 1: I mean I would think about it in the same way,
Speaker 1: which is, uh, is there somebody that can be squeezed
Speaker 1: or leaned on to stop it? Or is it decentralized
Speaker 1: enough that it can run on its own? But do
Speaker 1: we have that right now? Uh? Not in a good way.
Speaker 1: I think we need it, and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I think we need it, And it seemed like that's
Speaker 1: maybe what CZ was referring to. I didn't hear his
Speaker 1: comment or have I read the book, but um, I know,
Speaker 1: like I said, they they're coming out with a decentralized exchange.
Speaker 1: But what's decentralized about it? If it's still centrally controlled,
Speaker 1: I'm still facing counterparty risk. Um, it can still be
Speaker 1: leaned and squeezed, etcetera. I guess maybe you know. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I think there's this future where we do have that.
Speaker 1: But I guess what's your perspective on that based off
Speaker 1: of regulators and k y C, A m L and
Speaker 1: what regulators want to do to squeeze these things? I mean,
Speaker 1: do you see a future where we have a truly
Speaker 1: decentralized exchange. I personally don't see that. I mean I
Speaker 1: would hope that, uh, we'll have a little bit more
Speaker 1: uh not only forcement actions, but the more we see
Speaker 1: as far as definitions, I think that's going to be
Speaker 1: more helpful to us. But I don't think that's going
Speaker 1: to happen anytime in the near future. So maybe I'm
Speaker 1: a little bit pessimistic on that, but it would be
Speaker 1: very nice for this industry to kind of have something
Speaker 1: very straightforward, especially covering this decentralization concept. Typically like to
Speaker 1: talk about facts, but I want to dig into this
Speaker 1: a little bit of opinion here, just because I'm curious. Um.
Speaker 1: So obviously all these regulations go into you know, control
Speaker 1: and and uh tracking and uh obviously they use k
Speaker 1: y C A m l A m l ANTI money laundering, right,
Speaker 1: and and everyone's so concerned about money laundering because of terrorism.
Speaker 1: But it really has only been about the last maybe
Speaker 1: thirty years that they've been able to really track this.
Speaker 1: I mean, we were in a cash world. You know,
Speaker 1: we've seen time and time again, whether that be you know,
Speaker 1: under under the Obama um, under the Obama campaign, you know,
Speaker 1: sending hundreds of millions of dollars to Iran and cash
Speaker 1: on an airplane or whatever. I mean that that's terrorism.
Speaker 1: And we've seen the banks being fined for billions of
Speaker 1: billions dollars transactions. UM. Do you do you think this
Speaker 1: is a fight that uh is necessary or is it
Speaker 1: more just like is it is it really a active
Speaker 1: in fighting terrorism and doing what they wanted to do
Speaker 1: or is it really just about control? I think it's
Speaker 1: very I mean, definitely it's very important to fight terrorism,
Speaker 1: but I just kind of reliable before on both like
Speaker 1: even to kind of establish that control. UH. And this
Speaker 1: is more of a political approach, I would say, more
Speaker 1: than ah, you know, compliance or regulatory approach and U.
Speaker 1: But it's it's it's interesting to see how this is
Speaker 1: going to move on forward. Yeah, I mean it really then.
Speaker 1: You know the thing with the thing with bitcoin that's
Speaker 1: so interesting is it's just it's multidisciplinary. And you, being
Speaker 1: a professor, I'm sure you get it more than most,
Speaker 1: but you, I mean, you have to understand technology, you
Speaker 1: have to understand money, you have to understand banking, you
Speaker 1: have unerstand economics, you have to understand philosophy, right, you
Speaker 1: have to understand human incentives. You have to understand all
Speaker 1: these things to really get it, which is why I'm
Speaker 1: super fascinated by it. Um, And so yeah, always, and
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for interrupting it. Like doesn't every like when
Speaker 1: I talk about especially the bitgoing white paper and then
Speaker 1: the books, and I mean, I'm sure you're very much
Speaker 1: aware of Silk Road and stil Crowd did so. The
Speaker 1: majority of the people, in my opinion, who get involved
Speaker 1: in this space or who just starts, who just start
Speaker 1: getting involved in this space. I think that's especially for myself,
Speaker 1: Like that's the very first question that I get from
Speaker 1: these people that hey, but Silk Road, what was the purpose?
Speaker 1: Like what were they doing? And why are you in
Speaker 1: this industry so to speak? And it's interesting to do,
Speaker 1: I mean, to get that sort of feedback. Well, then
Speaker 1: you start, I mean, yeah, then you start getting into philosophy,
Speaker 1: and then you start getting into politics of course, right,
Speaker 1: so we can get into those who I don't want
Speaker 1: to dive too deep into those rabbit holes. But overall, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I I just kind of with big when
Speaker 1: you lean towards Austrian economics, free markets, and then that
Speaker 1: leads more like free free politics, and then more like
Speaker 1: libertarian views, and like if I'm not hurting you, then
Speaker 1: what's what and then what's the difference. And you know,
Speaker 1: obviously a lot of people, including myself, have a problem
Speaker 1: with anybody, especially the state, telling me what I can
Speaker 1: put in my body or what I can't put in
Speaker 1: my body, forcing me to put stuff in my body,
Speaker 1: or making illegal for me not to put like that's
Speaker 1: that's my body, Like who are you like? So? And
Speaker 1: and we can look at every war the government has led,
Speaker 1: whether that be the war on poverty, the war hunt terrorism,
Speaker 1: the war on drugs, They've all failed, and they've all
Speaker 1: made problems worse. And that's a whole another topic or discussion. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so maybe I shouldn't even open I shouldn't even
Speaker 1: open that door, maybe because that's not what we're really
Speaker 1: talking about. But it leads to that, just because we're
Speaker 1: talking about regulations. And and I've seen, you know, I've
Speaker 1: seen comments from like Christine le Guard or you know,
Speaker 1: people from the I m F and the B I
Speaker 1: S and and I quoted her on a Twitter post
Speaker 1: and it was her quote and I don't know it exactly,
Speaker 1: but basically she said, we must stop innovation because it
Speaker 1: threatens our stability. And I'm just like, wait, what, like,
Speaker 1: did she just say that? And yes she did. And
Speaker 1: that's what these regulators want to do is stop innovation.
Speaker 1: That was her quote. Um, and I just I just
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't like seeing regular regulations
Speaker 1: being used, uh, you know, to entrenched positions by you know,
Speaker 1: legacy legacy systems or whatever. Right, we need to innovate,
Speaker 1: we need to create more freedom, create more prosperity, create
Speaker 1: more equality. And uh So anyway, that's where I started.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, it goes to that philosophy political
Speaker 1: debate about regulations. Um are they Are they doing more
Speaker 1: harm than good? Uh? You know, so to speak, And
Speaker 1: I agree with you. But at the same time, I
Speaker 1: feel like Europe has completely different approach to our innovation.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that they're supporting innovation less or more,
Speaker 1: but I think here in the United States, even though
Speaker 1: we have more conservative regulatory kind of framework and compliance,
Speaker 1: I think that our regulators at least they're not stating
Speaker 1: that like they're trying to understand you have haster beers.
Speaker 1: Like every time she's been so much supportive of this,
Speaker 1: so she's amazing and I love every time, Like, uh,
Speaker 1: it's not only her arguments, but if you hear to UH,
Speaker 1: if you listen to her speeches, especially recently, like you
Speaker 1: understand that our regulators at least they're trying to understand
Speaker 1: not only the technology, which I'm sure like by now
Speaker 1: they have a better understanding, but at the same time
Speaker 1: they're trying to help us all navigate this industry. And
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. And I think that Europe has
Speaker 1: a completely different approach. And I do see that since
Speaker 1: I lecture a lot in Europe and I left her
Speaker 1: into a dress law so and re dress law in
Speaker 1: US is competition law in Europe. So definitely I can
Speaker 1: see exactly those different approaches or their or those point
Speaker 1: of views from where these regulators are coming from. And
Speaker 1: you can see that even the way how they approach
Speaker 1: our biggest companies, like you know, the actions And I
Speaker 1: don't want to go into it, Peters, because then I'm
Speaker 1: going to talk one more hour here, but I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're very much aware of the actions against Google and
Speaker 1: why they did that. And at the same time, I'm
Speaker 1: a big believer that, I mean, even though these companies
Speaker 1: are growing and growing, but that I mean, they're providing
Speaker 1: some very great benefits for our customers, for for I
Speaker 1: mean for for you and myself, and I think that
Speaker 1: is very important. So uh, it's I think that the
Speaker 1: perspective if that or the way how they analyze the
Speaker 1: strategies and this industry is, especially when it comes to innovation,
Speaker 1: is quite different. I agree, that's some good stuff. I
Speaker 1: want to talk about where this then keeps leading us
Speaker 1: if we keep wanting to keep diving into the rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: And so, um, I know you've talked a lot about, uh,
Speaker 1: about some of these trade wars that are going on
Speaker 1: and where we are with uh, you know, the US
Speaker 1: versus China, et cetera. And it gets out of it
Speaker 1: gets out of crypto a little bit, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: because you know, crypto is about the financial system and
Speaker 1: so the trade wars are obviously a big piece of that.
Speaker 1: And so I know you've written extensively about that. Maybe
Speaker 1: just give us a high level, uh kind of overview
Speaker 1: of what what you see going on, what you've been
Speaker 1: talking about there, of course, and I would love to
Speaker 1: cover this since the G twenty is coming the G
Speaker 1: twenty meetings is coming up. Next week. So obviously for
Speaker 1: our listeners, I'm sure they're very much or that President
Speaker 1: Trump decided to meet with the China president. But I
Speaker 1: think it's going to be uh somewhat beneficial for our
Speaker 1: listeners if I just mentioned a little bit or I
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the timeline in the US
Speaker 1: China trade word, because there are some very important dates
Speaker 1: that I think kind of emphasize what's going on or
Speaker 1: what's happening right now. Uh? Is that okay? If I
Speaker 1: just walk our listeners through this timeline? Yeah? Please? So? Uh,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it started back in two thousand
Speaker 1: and seventeen, if I'm not mistaken, when our United States
Speaker 1: Trade representative they are did this uh investigation into the
Speaker 1: unfair Chinese trade practices. Of course they were pursuing to
Speaker 1: our Section three zero one of the Trade Act of
Speaker 1: nineties seven four. Then on March of two thousand and eighteen,
Speaker 1: we had this big report from the United States Trade
Speaker 1: Representatives stating all this umpaire practices, and that was the
Speaker 1: reason why on July two thousand and eighteen, we had
Speaker 1: United States imposing the tariffs on thirty billion of Chinese imports.
Speaker 1: So that was kind of sort of the first movement,
Speaker 1: and after the United States imposed those stairs on this
Speaker 1: thirty billion of Chinese imports. Then I think that it
Speaker 1: was back on August two thousand and eighteen that Chinese
Speaker 1: kind of retaliated with darifs on the sixteen billion of
Speaker 1: so of US imports. So this was like a back
Speaker 1: and forth and back and forth retaliation strategy. And then
Speaker 1: of September of two thousand and eighteen, again United States
Speaker 1: imposed these arifs on I think two hundred and bill
Speaker 1: enough Chinese imports. So obviously you can see the impact
Speaker 1: that this are going to have, I mean, in between
Speaker 1: both countries. But I think recently, especially this week, I
Speaker 1: hope that our listeners, I mean um are very much
Speaker 1: aware of the China US radewar because there's been so
Speaker 1: much happening, and especially the companies, the big companies in
Speaker 1: the United States, they started filing this uh I think
Speaker 1: yesterday was the HP, Intel and Microsoft and they joined
Speaker 1: this movement to oppose the tramp tariffs. And this was
Speaker 1: for laptop computers, this was for tablets because these are
Speaker 1: going to be among those three hundred and billion tariffs
Speaker 1: in Chinese goods. And then we had another filing from
Speaker 1: the book publishers. I think I saw this yesterday. I
Speaker 1: think their claiming that they're imploring the President Trumps to
Speaker 1: not impose the Bible tax, they call that the Bible tax,
Speaker 1: because this proposed tariff is going to impact also the China,
Speaker 1: I mean Chinese goods, and is going to include the
Speaker 1: printed materials in this Chinese good My point is that
Speaker 1: I am very much optimistic at least about the fact
Speaker 1: that uh, this administration is considering the hearing there his
Speaker 1: hearing ceremony for our listeners if they want to know
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that, and I think it started,
Speaker 1: it's going through June twenty five, So for people that
Speaker 1: want to comment on that, I think there must be
Speaker 1: link and the impact that this is going to have
Speaker 1: in our uh us UH economy, I think that, I mean,
Speaker 1: definitely we see a little bit of impact, but I
Speaker 1: think in that probably China and I was going to
Speaker 1: see a bit more impact. And from my inside sources there,
Speaker 1: uh they mentioned that there is sort of this uncertainty
Speaker 1: in the space, and obviously you have many of major
Speaker 1: manufacturers kind of moving out of China because of this
Speaker 1: China tradewark policy. But I hope that during this G
Speaker 1: twenty meet, hopefully are a president and the Chinese president
Speaker 1: are going to be able to work this out. Why
Speaker 1: do you think the average person or I should say
Speaker 1: not the average person, but why does the investor care? Why? Why?
Speaker 1: Why would why has an investor do I need to
Speaker 1: be paying attention to this? And what am I looking
Speaker 1: the investor war in the United States or in China? Well,
Speaker 1: I guess either. I mean I invest in both, and
Speaker 1: I'm in the United States, but I invest in the
Speaker 1: China as well. But why do I care about this?
Speaker 1: If you I mean, if you're an investor in China,
Speaker 1: obviously you're going to feel this because obviously, I mean,
Speaker 1: the prices, the manufacturing prices are going to be higher,
Speaker 1: and no wonder especially I heard that a lot of Japanese,
Speaker 1: many manufacturers, they're moving their plans outside China. So even
Speaker 1: though I mean that might be a little bit impacted
Speaker 1: from different other political reasons, because I think that Japanese
Speaker 1: they always have this sort of law for United States
Speaker 1: for President Trump, and I don't want to go into politics,
Speaker 1: but I mean definitely, I mean, right now we can
Speaker 1: see exactly what president did a President Trump did in
Speaker 1: relation to North Korea and how I mean he's handling
Speaker 1: this whole trade war with China. My point is that
Speaker 1: definitely that is going to impact you as an investor
Speaker 1: because because it's going to go back to the pricing
Speaker 1: and it's going to be back to I mean to
Speaker 1: two years, it's gonna go back to profit. So the
Speaker 1: prices go up, companies become less profitable, they missed their
Speaker 1: earnings reports, and the stock tumbles down. We've already seen
Speaker 1: that in the United States when this really was heating
Speaker 1: up a month or two ago, we saw the stocks
Speaker 1: take a tumble. Um. So that's that's that's something that
Speaker 1: as an investor you should be paying attention to just
Speaker 1: because it really can affect the profitability, which in effects
Speaker 1: the share price and etcetera. Thinking addition, if you're invested
Speaker 1: into China, UM and jobs and factories are moving out
Speaker 1: of China, that's definitely something that you should be aware
Speaker 1: of as well. Um. I'm curious, and again I guess
Speaker 1: maybe getting into some more opinion, but um, have you
Speaker 1: been seeing how China, Russia and Iran have been trading
Speaker 1: oil outside of the US dollar. Yes, I've seen that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I'm curious, um, if you want to, if you
Speaker 1: want to jump on this grenade. But you know, the US,
Speaker 1: the US dollar obviously right there, what's that you just
Speaker 1: warned me right there? Yeah, so that you know, the
Speaker 1: US dollar uses it's its power as a world reserve
Speaker 1: currency to to issue sanctions across countries, right, that's our
Speaker 1: big power. We saw Rep. Sherman in California actually state
Speaker 1: this is a problem with bitcoin is it takes away
Speaker 1: the power to slap sanctions um. And and because of
Speaker 1: those sanctions against countries like Iran, Russia, China have said yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll just do stuff outside the US dollar. Then, Um,
Speaker 1: the U s has a history of trying to protect
Speaker 1: the dollars um reserve status. I'm just curious. Do you
Speaker 1: think some of these trade wars could be like maybe
Speaker 1: proxy wars for the real currency wars? I think so.
Speaker 1: I think so. I mean maybe I should say unfortunately,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I do see that's happening because I mean,
Speaker 1: the US has a history of having wars with countries um.
Speaker 1: And many people and I'm not stating this as fact,
Speaker 1: but many people have brought up the um the point
Speaker 1: that a lot of these countries we go in and
Speaker 1: invade our countries that are not on you know, the
Speaker 1: US dollar banking system, etcetera. UM, and China is not
Speaker 1: really a country you want to go to war with,
Speaker 1: but these are like proxy wars maybe, I mean they're
Speaker 1: off obviously financial, so that's interesting and but I don't
Speaker 1: think that's going to be beneficial to any of the countries, honestly,
Speaker 1: And as I said, that's why I hope that uh.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious actually just to go back, I think
Speaker 1: today the governor governor of Bank Or Japan, I don't
Speaker 1: recall his name, but I think he was supposed to
Speaker 1: hold this news conference today where he was expected to
Speaker 1: give some analysis on the US China trade war. And
Speaker 1: I was very curious to hear a little bit more
Speaker 1: about that because I mean, definitely we don't want this
Speaker 1: to have a through a strong impact, but probably if
Speaker 1: I were to kind of guests the impact of US
Speaker 1: China trade war, I see that having a stronger impact,
Speaker 1: especially on the world economic growth for next year. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe we don't feel that right away, but and I'm
Speaker 1: not one of those economic analysts, but I do a
Speaker 1: lot of researches, and I get academic obviously, and that's
Speaker 1: why I think probably that is one of the going
Speaker 1: to be one of the strongest impacts of this China
Speaker 1: US war, especially when it comes to the investment in
Speaker 1: China and the decline the consumer spending growth in the
Speaker 1: United States and in China as well. So that would
Speaker 1: be interesting to see. Now let's try and uh, let's
Speaker 1: try and future cast this a little bit. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: I I think, like I said before, you watch those
Speaker 1: movies where they go back in time and they change
Speaker 1: one little thing and then they go back to the
Speaker 1: future and the whole future is different, and we can
Speaker 1: so we can understand. They call it like the butterfly effects.
Speaker 1: So we if we can look at things that are
Speaker 1: happening today and we can kind of maybe go, wow,
Speaker 1: look what this is going to do in the future.
Speaker 1: And so UM a couple of things that I'm focusing on.
Speaker 1: And really because we're both in the United States, maybe
Speaker 1: more US centered or focused, But if we look at
Speaker 1: like what's going on in the US right now with
Speaker 1: regulations UM, not only our US companies moving out of
Speaker 1: the US because of the blockchain regulations, but then we
Speaker 1: have UM companies that are in the U s still
Speaker 1: like Bittram pull up and Pologna exer saying the US
Speaker 1: people can't be in this and then buy aance, just
Speaker 1: shutting people off all together, like like bit f ex, etcetera. Um,
Speaker 1: what do you think that means for the future? I mean,
Speaker 1: so it looks like to me the US is not
Speaker 1: only moving companies out of the US, but also prohibiting
Speaker 1: US people from taking advantage of this. Do you see
Speaker 1: that happening? And do you think that is going to
Speaker 1: continue get better or get worse. I hope that that
Speaker 1: is going to continue to get better. And I would
Speaker 1: like to argue a little bit with you here. Don't argue,
Speaker 1: but you can go ahead and see your que I mean,
Speaker 1: I disagree that the companies are moving out just to
Speaker 1: be compliant in other countries. First of all, I think that, uh,
Speaker 1: if you want to be compliant in the United States,
Speaker 1: you do have pretty much everything when it comes to
Speaker 1: the I mean, these companies then know exactly what they're
Speaker 1: supposed to do to be compliant in the United States.
Speaker 1: Of course, we need a little bit more guidance. Of course,
Speaker 1: this is still a little bit of a murky area
Speaker 1: when it comes to our regulatory space, but we do
Speaker 1: support innovation, and I kind of dislike to see when
Speaker 1: everybody states that, hey, all these companies are moving out
Speaker 1: of United States. And to be honest with you, when
Speaker 1: I saw this tweets or this UH kind of announcements
Speaker 1: about GEO blocking US customers, I kind of feel bad
Speaker 1: because and I think I tweeted about this, and I
Speaker 1: think I said that it kind of makes us like
Speaker 1: look like delinquents, you know. And it's interesting because right
Speaker 1: now we are dealing with this global industry and we
Speaker 1: have all these US customers, we all these US investors
Speaker 1: being so much interested in this industry and then being
Speaker 1: denied access to the exchange platforms. I don't think that's fair.
Speaker 1: I mean, for the exchange platforms is important for them
Speaker 1: to understand how to be compliant and how to also
Speaker 1: include UH, I mean US customers in in in this
Speaker 1: space and hopefully that it's going to change soon. So
Speaker 1: then you think that the problem isn't really that bad.
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that US customers have been kicked
Speaker 1: off the largest exchange and being blocked out of other
Speaker 1: exchanges isn't isn't really that bad? But actually ask customers,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's fair, right, right, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think it's fair at all. And um, that's where
Speaker 1: I start to think about a future in ten years
Speaker 1: or fifteen years. I think back, like you know, the
Speaker 1: the internet technology, um over the last twenty years, it's
Speaker 1: really propelled the US forward, right, I mean, we the
Speaker 1: US has Google, Facebook, Amazon, et cetera, Netflix, and the
Speaker 1: fame stocks. And if you look at the stock market
Speaker 1: and you take out the tech stocks, right, we're at
Speaker 1: all time highs in the stock market, but if you
Speaker 1: take out the tech stocks, the stock market is flat.
Speaker 1: And so if we didn't have that boom here, the
Speaker 1: last twenty years would have looked very different. And so
Speaker 1: then just imagine ten years or twenty years from now
Speaker 1: if we don't have this next boom and and or
Speaker 1: maybe it and it happens, but US people just can't
Speaker 1: can't be involved in it. So anyway, that's my fear.
Speaker 1: I just hope that's not going to happen. I don't
Speaker 1: want to sound overly optimistic, but I just hope that
Speaker 1: that's not going to happen. And I mean also just
Speaker 1: looking at the bright side, I mean, the fact that
Speaker 1: finance is coming back in September or so back to
Speaker 1: United States with a complainant I mean complaint platform. To me,
Speaker 1: that is quite telling. I mean, obviously the majority of
Speaker 1: their users were from the United States, despite the fact
Speaker 1: that's easy, you didn't want to admit that and saying that, hey,
Speaker 1: we do not allow us I mean US users in
Speaker 1: our platform orm and as I said, this was back
Speaker 1: last year. But my I mean, they obviously know that
Speaker 1: majority of their business was coming from United States as yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: good point. And I don't want to be overly pestimistic either.
Speaker 1: I mean, I believe in the space, and I believe
Speaker 1: in the technology, and I believe in human ingenuity, and
Speaker 1: uh you know, I think that will always find a way.
Speaker 1: And so we lose finance, um people have to be
Speaker 1: are forced to move back to US exchanges and liquidity
Speaker 1: comes back and the market survives. My only fear is
Speaker 1: is that these regulators continue to uh be to draconian.
Speaker 1: Hopefully it doesn't happen, and I'm optimistic that it won't.
Speaker 1: I was just curious on your views on I hope
Speaker 1: that's not gonna happen. Yes, I mean, I'm very optimistic
Speaker 1: about the space. Obviously, I do have strong reasons to
Speaker 1: be involved in the space. I really enjoyed the space.
Speaker 1: Even that always quite uh challenging because as many of
Speaker 1: my other A Churity of friends, we have to be
Speaker 1: on top of every single us of every single recent
Speaker 1: regulatory update out there or But I still enjoyed to
Speaker 1: work with my clients and it's quite a very interesting
Speaker 1: era that we are experiencing right now. Yeah, awesome, All right, Well,
Speaker 1: we've gone a long time. That was a lot of
Speaker 1: topics to go. There were still a couple of things
Speaker 1: that I had written down that I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to you about, but we're just gonna have to save
Speaker 1: those for another time. Um, because I know it's just
Speaker 1: going along. I would like to ask you, though, um,
Speaker 1: what what is the what is maybe the one thing
Speaker 1: or a couple of things that you're really excited about
Speaker 1: coming down kind of into the ecosystem over the next
Speaker 1: you know, a few months or year, Like what developments, projects,
Speaker 1: or or things are you kind of excited about that
Speaker 1: you're that you're watching. Yeah, that's a very very good question,
Speaker 1: and I think for myself, I just hope to see
Speaker 1: a little bit more and we're moving forward with that
Speaker 1: with the investment, uh with the creditor in Smunth Rules,
Speaker 1: So I hope we have to see a little bit
Speaker 1: more changes on that, hopefully next year. Mm hm great, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a big one. Alright. Awesome, Well, such good stuff,
Speaker 1: alt Um. Like I said, we could just talk about
Speaker 1: some of the stuff forever, a couple of things we
Speaker 1: want to want to get into. And I know you're
Speaker 1: doing a big piece on Facebook later, so we kind
Speaker 1: of skipped over that. Maybe we'll talk about that again later.
Speaker 1: But I just really appreciate you having having you on
Speaker 1: the show. Where where could people that really like you
Speaker 1: and want to follow you more? Where could they find you? Uh?
Speaker 1: So I am on Twitter and Jni Alta, I am
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn. I'm very vocal about my opinions, and I'm
Speaker 1: they can reach me at oh and DONI at Zilly
Speaker 1: leak Law. So I'd love to help everyone in this space. Great,
Speaker 1: And I'll go ahead and put links to that in
Speaker 1: the show notes for everybody who's maybe driving or can't
Speaker 1: write that down right now. But again, Alta, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on and we'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Mark for having me. Hey, if
Speaker 1: you like this episode, of the Market Disruptors Podcast. Please
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