WEBVTT - Hurdles For U.S. Investors 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.480 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:30.240 this started. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.479 Today we are sitting down with Alta and Donate from 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.560 Ziliac Law. And she is a an attorney and she's 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.760 a professor. She works in antitrust, financial services, money laundering, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.800 things like that, and we have a really interesting conversation. 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.120 We get into what's going on with the regulations with 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.120 finance shutting down to US customers, bit tricks and Poloniac 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.720 shutting off certain assets to US customers, What that means 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.240 for the US, what that means for the world. We 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.680 also get into further discuss stions on regulations, talking about 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.520 the US and China trade wars, what's going on with that, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.560 how that could be proxy for other wars, and again 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.960 what that means for US and Chinese investors moving forward. 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:15.160 This is a very important conversation helps us to understand 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.559 what is happening now, but also what's happened in the future, 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.080 and as an investor, you need to be paying attention. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.720 So let's jump right into this. All right, Welcome everybody 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.880 to the Market Disruptors Podcast. Today we are joined by 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.240 Alta Andoni with Ziliak Law. She is a an attorney 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:36.760 that focuses on financial services, money laundering, antitrust, and blockchain 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.560 technology stuff. She's also a professor at the Chicago Kent 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.360 College of Law, and so she's got this really unique 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.240 perspective on a bunch of different topics. There's so much 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.000 stuff we could talk about today. We'll try and keep 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.640 it short for you guys. But anyway, Alta, welcome to 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.080 the show. Thank you so much Mark for having me 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.480 here today. Yeah, awesome, I'm super excited about this. So 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.600 um so, so just kind of set this up. I 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:03.480 I kind of announced who you were, but why don't 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:05.480 you tell us a little bit about your background and 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.840 how you got involved into the crypto space and what 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.720 you're doing. Of course, of course I'd love to do that. 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:14.000 And uh so you mentioned that I'm an attorney. I'm 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.919 an attorney by training, as I always say, and I'm 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.800 also a professor and a junct professor of Chicago can 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.280 and professor for School of American Law at Chicago Ken 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.480 where a lecture on anti dress law, International business trans sections, 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.040 comparative Law. I do travel around the world because we 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.000 have all our branches around the world, and I love 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.919 to do this and UH UH meeting all the international 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.920 students and then they come back to Chicago, Kent and 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.800 UH finalize their studies in the LM in that specific 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:52.320 UH law area that they're going to graduate. I also 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.720 right now I am the head of blockchain practice at 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.720 Zelia Law, where I helped my client and kind of 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:06.680 brows this very into interesting industry and help them with 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:12.080 different areas on UH compliance with our securities law and 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:17.280 UH ky C and mL etcetera. I loved to work 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.240 in this space because I find it very interesting and 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.440 the way how I got involved we all have that 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:29.440 rabbit hole, as we UH call it. UH myself was 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.960 mostly on academic side because I love to research, and 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.200 obviously I heard about bitcoin very early. But then when 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.840 I when I read the Bitcoin paper, I was a 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:46.040 little bit skeptical about how much I mean, this virtual 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.520 currency can UH can achieve, you know, But then in 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.080 two thousand and seventeen, I lectured in China, and it 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.480 was quite interesting that when I was going out with 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.480 my students for lunches or dinners, like, I could hear 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:05.840 like everybody talk about bitcoin, and especially these old couples, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.240 and I was like, since everyone is so excited about becoing, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.080 definitely I have to explore this further because it looks 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.120 like something big is coming up for the more. In Chicago, 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.040 cant we have like different conferences on fintech and we 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.640 have like some great speakers coming each year. So that 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.760 was another area that kind of pushed me to explore 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.880 this industry a little bit further and to kind of 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.000 combine my previous experience in intellectual property and financial market 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.560 compliance together. And uh, that's why right now I'm talking 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:43.480 UM mostly concentrated and focusing more on crypto and blockchain technology. Great, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.680 that's that's that's awesome. I'm curious you said when you 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.719 first UM read the white paper you were skeptical. Now, 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.360 were you skeptical of the technology or were you skeptical 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:59.000 of again mass adoption or were you skeptical of if 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.120 if regulated regulators whatever allow it to grow? What were 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.000 your skeptical. I was more and that is a great question. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.680 Actually I was more scraped skeptical about the mass adoption. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.760 And it's not that I want to state that I 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.640 was right, but even right now we don't have like 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.560 a mass adoption when it comes to crypto. So I 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.159 was like, and I tried to explain this, uh to 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.760 several people, like even in my own family, like my husband. 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.839 He's a technology guy, and he was in the moment 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.560 that I explained to him, he was not a big believer, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.880 and and and and not only him, but you know, 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.719 crypto is quite an interesting concept for people, but you 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.279 really have to understand the technology behind it, and you 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.960 really have to understand how functions and what are like 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:54.800 some uh, some characteristics that really make this kind of 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.440 stand out. Well yes and no though, right, So, like 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.720 I think with any new technology, g first of all, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.240 we have to realize it takes time and you have 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.200 to be patient in the beginning. The true believers they 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.719 want to know that. But um, you know, if you 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.720 look at the Internet, it it took you know, from 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.640 the darker days, you know, thirty years before it rich 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.320 reached adoption. And um, you're not anyone that was going 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.760 to use the um, the Internet was like, hey, you 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.200 can send an email, but you don't have to explain 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.920 how the computer digitizes that packet and plugs into an 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.240 Internet and sends the packets over a thing, and then 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.960 the computer opens those packets and puts it back. It like, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.000 you don't explain that, And so I think that's where 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:33.479 people get hung up with the blockchain is like, oh, 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.000 let me explain how blockchain works and the different like 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.640 nobody cares, I mean, not not the not the mass adoption, right, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.120 they just want to notice it works. I agree, But 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.480 how many people do we have right now that they 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.400 don't know how to use the Internet about? Well, I 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.360 mean we'll never get to a percent Like when you 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.400 look at technology cycles, I mean to get like se 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.479 adoption is pretty good, Um we have that? Do we 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:58.360 have that for the Internet right now? I mean, I'm 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:00.480 not trying to argue, but I do know that even 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.560 for I mean, this is always the counter argument that 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.440 it's kind of brought up for blockchain technology, and I 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.720 don't think that. I mean, obviously we have a much 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.360 more mass adoption for the Internet. But it's just interesting 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.720 Internet to see that so many people still don't know 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.960 what to use the internet out there, so obviously our 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.680 time when it comes to the crypto and the blockchain, 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.600 I say, it takes a couple of generations, you know, 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.240 like I still have, Like you know, obviously there's still 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.000 some grandmothers out there that don't use the Internet. But 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.520 then the kids, the grand kids today will never know 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.880 anything other than that, and so it kind of takes 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.400 a couple of generations sometimes to see a full adoption shift. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.120 But anyway, that's a that's a great story that you 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.880 have and interesting how you were skeptical of that at first. Um, 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.840 now I know you have like this, uh, you know 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.440 this this kind of specialty and financial services and and 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.080 uh and and and whatnot. We were originally talking about 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.720 the big news that had happened a week ago. Now 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.280 it's kind of being with finance, and now it's kind 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.120 of being overshadowed a little bit by the news that 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.560 broke yesterday about Facebook. But I'm sticking to finance. Um, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.360 they made a really big news now they're than like 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.840 the largest exchange in the world by volume, and they've 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:19.120 basically decided to get rid of US customers. What do 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:24.200 you think about that? Obviously, that was big news, even 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.480 though I I think like this week Facebook Face, Facebook 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:33.000 news was kind of bigger than finance. I love to 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.000 talk a little bit more about finance, and personally, I 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:43.120 was not surprised about this move from Vinance, And obviously 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.120 Finance was not the very first exchange kind of moving 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:53.040 with this restrictions on market availability because I think, uh, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.920 and I hope the listeners recall that actually was bit 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.079 fin x uh. If I recall correctly, it was bitwin 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.720 x that began kind of distancing itself from the New 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:10.040 York users in two thousand seventeen, and they also bear 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:14.040 the New York customers and then US individual customers. I 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.360 think this was back into August of two thousand seventeen, 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.760 and then they kind of blocked or escalated this to 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.840 banning all US entities in August of two thousand eighteen. 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.319 So we have seen some signs out there, and I'm 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.840 not surprised by the Finance moves. Something that surprises me 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.920 is that, Okay, I think it was on John on 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.560 June one when they announced that their users, uh, they're 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:43.880 going to start this geo blocking policy to twenty nine countries. Uh. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.000 And then they're starting I think July one, if I'm 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.200 not mistaken, But then on September twelve, they're claiming that 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.640 they're not going to accept any US users anymore. But 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:01.960 if you read like that kinda uh uh mmmm announcement 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:06.559 very carefully, they state that they're going to have apparently 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.360 Finance America is going to be launched at the same time. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.240 So in my opinion, this was quite a very well 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:20.839 talked uh strategy or movement on their side. And and 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.360 then previously will So had bit recks. I think bit 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.360 Recks was like last Friday, if I'm not mistaken, and 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.320 it was like very late Friday, which is interesting, like 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:36.720 how can you advertise this market availability or changes in 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:41.040 your market market availability like on a very late Friday night, 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.199 because they I don't know if you saw that week 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.120 that they stated that they are following the same move 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.880 that I mean by Polly Necks, and Polly Necks decided 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.760 to block like trading for US customers on nine cryptoccurrencies 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.160 or so, so we have seen like so many of this. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:05.360 It's something interesting was even I was not aware of 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.760 tax Exchange, are you like? That was interesting? Like tax 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:15.720 Exchange they terminated their operation completely on July six. I 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.439 mean obviously because of this regulatory uh kind of which 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:28.400 exchange tax? No, yeah, no, I just to catch everybody 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.040 up if you're if you haven't been paying attention to 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.840 the news. UM. Like I said, Finance, the largest exchange 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.000 in the world, has decided to get US users off. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.240 But the previous largest exchanges, which at least in the 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.599 U S were bit Trax and Poloniacs, which used to 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.600 be major players in the space before Finance came up 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.880 and their US based And what they decided at the 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.760 same time as as alto same, is that they decided 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.520 to what they call geo fence or basically make certain 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:02.199 assets on their exchange UM not tradeable by US residents. 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.160 So the so the assets are still there and they're 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.840 still tradeable by people outside the US, but people inside 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.719 the US aren't able to trade those certain assets UM. 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.760 And then Binance, which is not a US company, just 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.199 decided to kick all US users off, similar to what 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.199 bit fin X has done. Now it's kind of different. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.480 Do you have any thoughts onto why Binance wouldn't have 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.880 just um restricted access to certain assets by US A 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.480 residents similar to Bittricks or poloni X versus just kicking 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:37.559 everybody off and trying to start a completely different UM exchange. Uh. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.760 I think that that's a great question mark I but 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:46.360 I think that uh Binance is kind of concentrated, mostly 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:51.160 especially lately, and kind of setting this industry standard. And 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.400 why am I saying that? I I mean, obviously I 0:12:55.520 --> 0:13:00.199 follow CZ and I think that despite whatever other things him, 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.440 I think of finance, I think that he's a hard worker, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.440 he's a smart guy, he's a visionary in this space. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.480 But I did see a very interesting tweet from him, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:15.680 UH that he mentioned that, UH, first of all, if 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.520 you are going to consider UM, I think someone kind 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.440 of asked him the question like why did you do this? 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:28.120 Like why did you uh kind of stand up? Why 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.120 didn't you not stand up to the US regulators? And 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.480 what's interesting because he mentioned that you have to read 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.679 the book The Starfish and the Spider, and I don't know. 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.480 And I kind of search that a little bit more 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:49.000 and I found out that he's pretty much referring to 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:54.959 this analogy that or he's contrasting this to the decentralized 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:01.400 companies and how decentralized companies kind of can change this ace. UH. 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.400 The spider and the starfish analogy re first pretty much 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.440 to the contrasting biological nature of this respective organism. You know, 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.480 so starfish having this decentralized neural structure and kind of 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:19.200 permitting this regeneration and so pretty much if you cut 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.040 uh if you cut off a spider's head, it dies, 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.600 but then if you cut off the starfish, legs grows, 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.240 you know what I mean. So use kind of very 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.920 interesting analogy in his perspective. So I kind of like that, 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.120 and I like to see these exchanges to be a 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.560 little bit more compliant in this space, and I'm very 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.640 happy to see that, especially from violence. And the other 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:48.360 thing is that, uh, not only they're concentrating most mostly 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.480 on this compliance in this space. But at the same time, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.440 I hope that we're not going to have this feedback 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.200 like we got with nance. And what do I mean 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.160 by that, Like always we have like two camps in 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:08.400 this industry, and one or the first camp is, hey, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:14.840 has this industry industry being sufficiently self regulated or actually 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.560 do we need a little bit more regulation, And of course, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.720 like that's a very good question. But at the same time, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:27.280 what sort of regulation or what sort of regulatory certainty 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:33.040 are these exchanges looking for Yeah, I'm just curious though, 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:37.080 like what that regulate regulation is? Right, So, um, what 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.960 we've seen again back to Batricks and Polonis, they've restricted 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:44.160 assets certain assets to US residents. But the list, the 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.760 list seems to be different across exchanges. So coin base 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.080 seems to have like their own list that they think 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.840 um of coins that are that are good Polonia x Batricks, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.680 they seem to work off of different lists. Is that 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.040 is that true? And if so, why is that? I 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.880 think that's true. And I think that each and every 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.840 one of these exchanges, obviously they have their own legal 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.760 councils and this is not legal advice, but of course 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:15.080 that they get like different uh legal advice from their councils. 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.200 I mean, some of them are very conservative and some 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.280 of them know and I'm not saying that they know 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.400 the space much better than the other ones, but this 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.040 is one of those industries that you really have to 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.280 keep up to date. And UH, if we're going back 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.960 and to the reasons why these exchanges are doing this, like, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.880 definitely there's some strong reasons because we have seen a 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.560 lot of more actions from our regulatory agencies, from our 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:45.359 UH regulatory bodies, like we had the statement on Framework 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:50.280 for Investment UH contract Analysis back in April of I 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.760 mean April of this year, we had UH. Furthermore and more, 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.960 as I said, like actions enforcement actions from the SEC again, 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.920 US Air Force, Baragon and other companies. We right now 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.080 we have the Financial Action Task Form and furthermore, I 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.119 don't know if our listeners are much aware of this, 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.800 but we had a recent guidance also from our US 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:20.760 Treasury Department, and I think lately they stated that it 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.679 takes I mean, they're taking this broader view when it 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.159 comes to their authority to regulation or to crypto businesses, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.120 and definitely they're trying to bring a little bit more 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:37.600 civil uh civil actions and including anti money laundering actions 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:42.320 because prosecutors obviously they're proceeding with their criminal cases in 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.880 this space. So I think like we are kind of 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:51.680 tightening up our compliance and our regulatory space right now. 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.120 So that's why I think that these exchanges are feeling 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.080 the need to kind of be a little bit more compliant, 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.679 not a little bit more compliant, but kind of to 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.399 understand exactly that if they want to be compliant in 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.520 the United States, they really have to make sure that 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.760 they follow all the needed steps and comply with our 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.120 regulatory boddies or agency. And the problem is, as you're saying, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.680 I guess, is that because there's no clear guidance, that's 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.720 why we're seeing a discrepancy in the coins or the 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:25.280 assets of projects that are being geo fence or blocking 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.800 US residents. Um so, I guess right, that's what you're saying. 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.399 So there's lack of guidance or lack of clarity, and 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.960 that's why some exchanges have some assets and some exchanges 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.320 have other assets. I agree on that, but we're not 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:44.800 going to have that clear guidance and we have judicial 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.919 decision or a little bit more of a formal SEC 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:54.480 rulemaking decision, right so for now obviously or expecting what's 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.119 gonna happen with SEC big kick, but right now we 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:01.439 don't have a little bit more guidance, uh as we 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.639 call it from a precedent. However, I mean, I like 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.280 the involvement of all the players in this in this industry, 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.679 and I like the fact that the SEC especially is 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:18.119 welcoming all this feedback from all the participants in this space. 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.320 And I think we all should appreciate that. I mean, 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.520 in every single event that one of the representative SEC 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.720 representatives is there, you do see that they do have 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.520 the intention to to help the people understand and how 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.520 to be complied in the space, and furthermore to invite 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.600 them in this dialogue. So I think that is very 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:46.760 important for all of us. Okay, good, UM, So let's 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.959 talk about what this means for the average person and 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.440 why they should even care about this news. So obviously, 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.680 if you're in the US, you're affected because now you're 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:04.280 being blocked out of certain things. I guess as an investor, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.919 there's just because you're blocked out of Finance, which is 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.760 the largest exchange in the world. Um, A lot of 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.119 those assets you can still find on other exchanges to 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.000 buy are exchange for I suppose I think the ones 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.879 that are really affected by this the most are the traders. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.480 And although I'm a holdler and I think people should 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.800 be investing for the long term, most of the market 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:27.800 is driven by speculation at this point. That's a new 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.399 technology cycles work, and so the traders are really going 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.320 to suffer because there's no liquidity on these other exchanges. 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.520 It's on bit tricks. So what do you think that means? 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.240 I guess in the short term or maybe even the 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.439 long term to US residents, are they just gonna be 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.040 missing out on this or do you think something's gonna 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.800 open up for them in the near future. I'm a 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.800 big believer and I'm not going to comment much of this, 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.280 but I think something is going to happen to open 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.120 up for them in the future. Uh. I mean, that's 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.600 my opinion that maybe I'm being awfully optimistic right now. 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.840 Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, hopefully, hopefully things find a way. Now. 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.320 You had mentioned earlier with with c Z talking about 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.119 the starfish and the spider, and really you're kind of 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.680 referring to decentralized systems, and so then that kind of 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:21.919 we're talking about exchanges. So of course that leads to 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:26.679 decentralized exchanges, which for years I've believed and stated that 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.840 I believe it's the most important piece of the entire 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:34.639 ecosystem because Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are designed to be 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:39.399 peer to peer, non custodio, non uh you know, without 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:44.520 counterparty risk, etcetera. And going to a centralized exchange basically 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.000 kills the whole thing. So I believe decentralized exchanges are 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.200 a big thing. Although they haven't really taken off because 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:53.359 of poor U I U X, poor liquid y, whatever. 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.520 But what do you see being in the future. I mean, obviously, 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.120 as you said, CZ talked about it, they are launching 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:03.560 their own descent realized exchange, but that essentralized exchange is 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.600 still basically a centralized exchange because they're still controlling access 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:11.080 like US residents can't um access that. So what do 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.200 you think czs comments and what do you think about 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:18.720 decentralized exchanges kind of moving forward? Uh, that is another 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.359 great question. And I'm going to go back to the 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:27.320 analogy that CZ used in history because, as I said, 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.600 I kind of this was an audiobook, Uh, the star 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:34.800 Fish and the Spider, And it's interesting that they mentioned there. 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.400 I don't know if you're aware of the MGM when 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.480 they were trying to crack down on the peer to 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:45.840 peer music website roxter and uh, and then I think 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.000 they want those lawsuits. And then other groups I think 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:54.920 was KASA and eMule kind of got uh. They they 0:22:55.040 --> 0:23:00.199 surfaced out of this whole movement. So my point is 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:04.119 that I think that he's trying to rely mostly on 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:08.200 the smaller organization that are more like starfish and if 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:13.320 their limb is kind of uh severed, I mean it 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:17.800 to me, it looks like he's rely mostly on decentralized decentralization. 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:21.159 But the problem that I have with that is that 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.440 right now, even in the United States, when we go 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:29.560 back to the test of being sufficiently decentralized, I don't 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:33.600 think we're coming up with the right definition what is 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:40.520 sufficiently decentralized. When does that sufficiently decentralized happen? You know, 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.359 and unless we have and this is not only a 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:48.800 guidance from the SEC or from our regulators, but I 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.119 think that it's very important for some definitions in this 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.320 space to have a little bit more meaning from all 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.800 for all the participants. Even when it comes to the cryptocurrency, 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:01.639 what is cryptocurrency? Well, I think I think we have 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:04.840 a perfect example of what is decentralized right now today, 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.800 right with with Facebook Libra start announcing that they're launching 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:12.800 their coin, and within the same day you have governments 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:16.680 all around the world saying, no, you're not stop that. Right, Um, 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:19.000 nobody's gonna tell Bitcoin to stop that because there's no 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.560 one to tell. Who are they going to tell? Right? 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.640 I think that's a perfect illustration of what is decentralized 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.240 and so, uh, when I talk about a decentralized exchange, 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:30.000 I mean I would think about it in the same way, 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:34.119 which is, uh, is there somebody that can be squeezed 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.719 or leaned on to stop it? Or is it decentralized 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:39.959 enough that it can run on its own? But do 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:43.960 we have that right now? Uh? Not in a good way. 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:46.359 I think we need it, and that's what I'm saying. 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:48.960 I think we need it, And it seemed like that's 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.520 maybe what CZ was referring to. I didn't hear his 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:54.160 comment or have I read the book, but um, I know, 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.480