1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. When there are stars that are 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: flashes in the palm that burn fast and bright, and 4 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: then there are those artists that endure. On the list 5 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: of musical acts that continue to sell out their concerts 6 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: pre and post COVID, you will find names like Paul McCartney, 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: The Rolling Stones, Judy Collins, Lindsey Buckingham and my guests Today. 8 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: One half of the eighties powerhouse Tears for Fears Kurt Smith, 9 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: This is Advice for the young at Heart from the 10 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: nine album The Seeds of Love. By the mid nineteen eighties, 11 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: Tears for Fears had joined a dense pack of new 12 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: wave artists that included Simple Minds, Crowded House and Simply Read, 13 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: and releasing some of the most popular music of the day. 14 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: The duo would eventually reach the stratospheres of stardom, selling 15 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: over thirty million albums worldwide. Kurt Smith first met bandmate 16 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: Roland Orzebal as a teenager in Bath, England, and put 17 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: out their first album, The Hurting Three. They were still 18 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: booking small clubs when they released their second album, Songs 19 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: from the Big Chair. By the time the tour ended, however, 20 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: they had pole vaulted into stadiums. I would guess the 21 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: after recording itself took a year, but it was two 22 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: years between The Hurting being released on Songs with the 23 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Big Chair, which which then was a long time. You know. 24 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: Obviously the Hurting it had had huge success outside of America. 25 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: It was big in New York and l A. So 26 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: Songs from the Big Chair. I don't want to do 27 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: all on that too much, but you know, you have 28 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: the number one album in the US. Quite a different 29 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: situation to have the number one album the biggest market 30 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: of them all. That's that's not the most sophisticated market, 31 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: but it's the biggest market. It was a little crazy, 32 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like I said, were because touring 33 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: here was was weird after Songs in the Big Chair 34 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: because before we played our first ever show in the US, 35 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: we never played when we released The Hurting. There was 36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: no real market, like we could have played in New 37 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: York and l A. But that was kind of it 38 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: and that would be too expensive just for those shows. 39 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: So the first time I ever played in America was 40 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: after Songs on the Big Chair and our first show 41 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: was a little club in Hartford, Connecticut, and by the 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: time we got there, Everybody Wants To All the World 43 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: was number one. So there was the sweatiest show I've 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: ever played. I think it was ridiculous. But then slowly 45 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: as we got on, as they managed to then make 46 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: the venues bigger and bigger, they started changing the venues 47 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: because everything had taken off, and we went across America, 48 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and by the time we got to l A, we 49 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: were playing to you know, twenty thousand people. But initially 50 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: you found the Ronnie Scotts of Hartford Cannemy exactly. It 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: was interesting, but but also a little I think soul 52 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: destroying is a harsh word, but it was. It became 53 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: hard work and I want to get to I want 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: to get to the same you know, the wind under 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: your wings and you really take off, you know, number 56 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: one album. The music was coming out and every I 57 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: mean that was so ubiquitous, and so I'm the present 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: songs from the Big Chair was like they were applying 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: it to like face cream on the radio. Yeah. No, 60 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: and and we you know, because of the way reccompanies 61 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: were and because of at that point in time, yeah, 62 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: obviously there was no streaming, so the radio radio stations 63 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: were the important things. So you know, we were up 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: doing the morning drive shows, and we were doing interviews 65 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: all day long, and then sound check and then shaking 66 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: hands and kissing babies from local people, you know, local 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: radio stations and things before the show, meets, meet and 68 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: greets after of the show, and it became work. I 69 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: mean it was really hard work. And myself and rolland 70 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: and not renowned for being the hardest of workers. We 71 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: like to take our time and we really didn't enjoy 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: it that much. And what's sad when that happens is 73 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: you know, you you know, because when you get home, 74 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: your your friends say, isn't this wonderful? You traveled the 75 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: world and you you went to all these places, and 76 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: then you have to tell them, yeah, but I didn't 77 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: get to see any of them. I was just working 78 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: the whole time. I didn't get to visit any So 79 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: people say that to me about the movie business, they say, 80 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, you travel all over the world and you 81 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: see I go, No, we go to work at dark 82 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: in the morning, we come home it's dark at night, 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: and if the restaurant of the hotel is closed, then 84 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: I have a microwave burrito out of the vending machine 85 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: exactly said, it's really not traveling with my own chef. 86 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: So Roland and you meet when you're young, I mean 87 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: when you're very young. And I want to just clear 88 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: up one thing for people Tears for Fears. Is it 89 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: more like Simon and Garth uncle and really Dan where 90 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: it's two primary players and everybody else's sessions, or you 91 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: had full time members of the band, you know, everyone 92 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: else session musicians. I mean people thought that, certainly on 93 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: songs of the Big Chair, that there was a band 94 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: because we actually took a picture as a band, because Ian, 95 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: our keyboard player who also co produced, works a lot 96 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: on the album with us, and many a liars at 97 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: that point in time was had been our drummer on 98 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: the Hurting and songs in the Big Chair. I mean, 99 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: I guess what happens is you can tell what who 100 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: the band are by who is signed to the record label. 101 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: The only people signed to the record label all through 102 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: our career is me in Rowland, and and so then 103 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: we get to pick and choose who we worked with. 104 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: But we've worked with Manny any and from the Hurting 105 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: through songs from the Big Chair, and we felt they 106 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: were kind of band members. But before we go back 107 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: to the origins, who are you and Roland? I just 108 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: what what you're triggering for me now? Was this idea 109 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: that was there a time when you're in a studio 110 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: recording any of your albums, after you really take off, 111 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: were you're there and across the room with somebody going, 112 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm have this person playing sessions with 113 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: my band, like the do the quality of everything just 114 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: go up? Well, yeah, definitely, and everybody want to play 115 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: with you eventually, I mean after songs of the Big Chair, certainly, 116 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm in on Seeds of Love after you know, which 117 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: is our third album. Um, we got to work with 118 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: man who catch A on drums. We got to work 119 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,119 Speaker 1: with Phil Collins on drums. You know that there were Yeah, 120 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: there were people that you know, when when you ask, 121 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: people will come in and play with you, you know. 122 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: So we did. Although most of the stuff we tend 123 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: to do ourselves. And I don't know if that's by 124 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: design or just that that's how we work sometimes that 125 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: that normally happens when we hear a specific person, So 126 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: say with Phil Collins playing on Woman in Chains, we 127 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: heard Phil Collins. I mean, we heard there's a track 128 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: on Petergether's third album called No Self Control that has 129 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: this drum fill in, and that's what we heard on 130 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,119 Speaker 1: Women in Chains. We heard these tom fills that Phil 131 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: Collins with the exact same sound, with the exact same sound. 132 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: We were basically everyone's asking Phil to come and play 133 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: the same films. Just do that, just that exactly, And 134 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: and so I was doing. I performed on this sort 135 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: of all star concert at Wembley Stadium for Nelson Mandela's 136 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: birthday when Nelson Mandela was still in jail and Phil 137 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: was the drummer, and I came on and sang, and 138 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: so then I asked him, I said, would you would 139 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: you come and drum on this one song that I 140 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: we just hear you drumming on And he said, yeah, 141 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: I'd love to, and and so I said we should 142 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: I book a few days in the studio. He's like, 143 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: well one, now, I'd come in around one. I'm I'm 144 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: sure I'll be home by tea time, you know, and 145 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: so and he was. But also we had a mutual friend, 146 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: Hugh Padgum, who's a producer who produced Phil's albums and 147 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: the Peter Gabriel album, and so I got Hu to 148 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: come in and get the drum sound before Phil arrived, 149 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: and I think Phil did it in like two takes 150 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 1: and then went home. So where do you meet? Um? 151 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: We met in my hometown of Bath. He had just 152 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: moved to Bath. He grew up in a place called 153 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: Portsmouth on the south coast of England. And we had 154 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: this mutual friend who went to school with him. He 155 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: was at a different school than me and Bath, but 156 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: the mutual friend lived near me and so I knew him, 157 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: and he was a musician of ace player actually, and 158 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: we met and we kind of hit it off, even 159 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: though we really were kind of polar opposites. But I 160 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: think when you were playing one at the time, I 161 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: wasn't playing anything at the time. I was singing. I mean, 162 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: I've been in a choir since I was four, and 163 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: I loved singing. It's interesting if if I think back 164 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: on it, because I used to sing all the time 165 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: around when since the age of like three or four, 166 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: I would sing more than I would talk. Um, I 167 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: would sing along to things on the radio. I would 168 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: just sing things. And my mother was just got tired 169 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: of it and she and she's like, get out of 170 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: the house and sing. Go go go join the choir. 171 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: If that you love singing, that must go join a 172 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: quiet And when you were in public singing, when when 173 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: this shy, you seem shy. Did you sing more than 174 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: your talk because you were shy? Maybe I think that 175 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: there's a part of it. And I was a very 176 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: shy kid and and still am a shy. I wouldn't 177 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: say shy. I'm more of an introvert than shy. I 178 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: guess what's interesting is that's what I sense. I'm not 179 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: saying this to be kind. What I sense is you 180 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: are unlike many people where they can go and s 181 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: and gears and they can sing certain ways. But then 182 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: there were those people who can sing and the singing 183 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: is has a powerful emotional undercurrent that at the same 184 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: time they sit on it, they don't go too far. Yeah, 185 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's I find it an easier 186 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: medium to communicate with than talking to people. I don't 187 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: know that you know, even though this is quite comfortable, 188 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: sometimes it can be hard, you know, since you know 189 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: it can be difficult, and you know I'm a homebody, 190 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: I'm I would say, I'm kind of an introvert. I'm 191 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: comfortable with a small group of friends. Put me in 192 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: a big group that I don't know anyone, I am 193 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: completely uncomfortable. I'm the guy standing out in the corner. 194 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: I don't have stage right digitally well, people eventually, what 195 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: what's what's interesting is and and and I see this 196 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: happen with my daughter as well, who as she was 197 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: growing up and certainly in her teen years through to 198 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: moving to New York, had major anxiety issues. And what 199 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: happens is singing is one thing I know I can do, 200 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: and that my stage fright comes forehand as soon as 201 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: my mouth and starts singing. I'm comfortable, I'm fine, you 202 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: know what you're doing. Yeah, And I feel like I belong. 203 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: But the reason I mentioned that about the emotional combined 204 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: with the with the I can see your hand on 205 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: a knob, and there's just the right amount of emotion 206 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: like that, like you, like I'll give you a kind 207 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: of what's going to seem like an incongruous reference, but 208 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: like I would listen to Dylan, and Dylan would sing 209 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: a song like an anthem, like and when he sings Hurricane, 210 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: he sits on that indignation and only let's it belch 211 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: out and when you sing this is wonderful, beautiful emotion. 212 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: But you don't. I leave that to my partner. Roland 213 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: is he Roland is the one that you have to 214 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: try and temper down slightly. He's he's like he's jazz hands, 215 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, He's like, I'm out there and he'll be 216 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, performing, I mean he he performs. My voice 217 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: has more of a tone of melancholy. I guess to 218 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: it to a certain degree and on the right amount 219 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, And I'm and I'm the quieter singer, 220 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: you know. So basically, you know, it's it's you know, 221 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: We've been asked a lot of times, you know, how 222 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: how do you because it's a you know, we have 223 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: a weird setup. We have two lead singers, which which 224 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: is very rare, and you know, I get asked, how 225 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: do you pick the songs? And it's like to us, 226 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: it's becomes very obvious. You know, if something demands vocal 227 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: acrobatics and power and in your face, that's going to 228 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: be Roland. Is something requires a certain touch of melancholy 229 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: or slightly undersung or you really want to kind of listen, 230 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: that would be me so the song has become very obvious. 231 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: There's not normally, there's no songs we've ever done. I 232 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: don't think where we've both gone in and both think 233 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: we should do it. We it becomes obvious, you know what, 234 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: you can compete because we're two lead singers, so there's 235 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: ego involved. But when we both try and sing a song, 236 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: it's clear which one should be singing it. It becomes 237 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: very clear. So we're so between your choral career and 238 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: your meeting Roland, when did you first get the sense? 239 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: I always wonder, you know, people say to me, you know, 240 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: did you think you could act? And I say, oh 241 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: god no. But my point is is that was your 242 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: a point in between choral career and professional you know, 243 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: beginnings with Roland, when you said yourself, I really can 244 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: do this. I mean, I really think I can make 245 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: a go at this. I think once myself and Roland 246 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: started playing together, I mean, what happened he listened to me? 247 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: So the start of our musical career together, you know, 248 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: we met and we sort of became friends. Like I said, 249 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: we were sort of polar opposite. Roland was kind of 250 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: this sort of intellect to a certain degree, but he 251 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: was a you know, straight a student, you know, graded 252 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: everything at school, and by this point in my life 253 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: I had gone the other way. I was the dropout, 254 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: skyped off school, God in trouble, God in fights. I 255 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: used to be an a student before, but but I 256 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: didn't get enough attention to you do that wasn't going 257 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: to help your rock and roll career. So no, I 258 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: didn't get any attention from my parents. And so you know, 259 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: I was singing along in my room role and was 260 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: in the room to a track called the Last Days 261 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: and made by Blois To. I was a big blois 262 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: To cult fan at that point in time because they 263 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: were bizarre for a rock band. And he wasn't comfortable 264 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: being a lead singer. He was a guitar player and 265 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: he he didn't think he could be a lead singer. 266 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: He just wasn't did you pick up the bass guitar 267 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: when we needed a bass player. So this is how 268 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: we started. When we were fourteen our first band, I 269 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: was the lead singer, That's what I was. Roland just 270 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: played guitar and did backing vocals. And then as our 271 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: career progressed, he started feeling more comfortable with lead vocals 272 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: then and we realized we had two very different voices, 273 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: so we gave it us an extra sort of width 274 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: and breadth of music we could use. And then so 275 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: we played fourteen from fourteen in the sort of this 276 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: kid's band school band, and then it's around sixteen. That 277 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: lasted about a year, year and a half, and then 278 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: we we stopped playing together. That band fell apart and 279 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: he formed another band called Graduate. I think this is 280 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: when I was around sixteen, and they fired the bass 281 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: player because they hated him. And so Roland came to 282 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: my house and he's like, do you think you can 283 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: play bass? I'm like, you want to teach me? Then? Yeah, 284 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: can you play it by tomorrow? Yeah? Well basically well 285 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: next week. It was basically next week. He said, I'll 286 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: teach you all the parts, so you'll go yeah, and um. 287 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: I went into the audition and I used it because 288 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, I knew all the parts and it was fine, 289 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: and it seemed I was a natural at it, you know, 290 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: because drums and bass are really that's the rhythm section, 291 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, that's the backbone of a band. And all 292 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: the great bands have a good looking bass player who 293 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: can sing. Paul Paul Paul well so you're Paul. Now 294 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: you're the good looking bass player who can sing exactly 295 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: what Paul. Paul was kind of a hero of a 296 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: Phill lineup was my other hero from Thin Lizzy, and 297 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: he was the bass player who sang so yeah between 298 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney and Phil Line. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, 299 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: I can, I can do this. I see myself in 300 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: that pantheon exactly. And so I learned to play bass 301 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: at sixteen and have continued since then and have become 302 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: you know now now I've I've become competent musician. Kurt Smith. 303 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: If you love conversations with contemplative rockers from the nineteen eighties, 304 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: be sure to check out my episode with ari E 305 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: Ms Michael Stipe in a band dynamic, everyone's got an idea, 306 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: in an opinion, and what happened, what happens when it 307 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: all comes together? Is this this beautiful compromise where one 308 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: person kind of oversees one part, another overseas another part. 309 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: Somehow it all works, and that chemistry served us pretty 310 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: well for most of her career. But but it was, 311 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, it was at times very very difficult. Here 312 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: the rest of my conversation with Michael Stipe that Here's 313 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: the Thing dot Org. After the break, Kurt Smith shares 314 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: what was going on in his head when he left 315 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: Tears for Fears at the height of their fame. I'm 316 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Hear's the Thing. 317 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: Peter Jackson's recent Beatles documentary Get Back vividly demonstrates how 318 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: even the most successful acts are not without their tensions. 319 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: I like the Beatles, many artists, including Simon and Garf, 320 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: Uncle Journey, and The Beach Boys, just to name a few, 321 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: have all experienced the growing pains that come with enormous 322 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: commercial success. Tears for Fears ultimately succumbed to that same 323 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: musical fate. That's Kurt Smith's bandmate Roland oors a Ball, 324 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: singing head over heels from Tears for Fear's seminal album 325 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: Songs from the Big Chair. After three albums and tens 326 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: of millions in sales, Kurt Smith and Roland or Zibal's 327 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: creative partnership was severed in Although Orzibal would go on 328 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: to release two additional albums under the name Tears for Fears, 329 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: it would be ten years before the duo would reunite 330 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: to release new work together, including this year's album The 331 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: Tipping Point. Kurt Smith shared how Tears for Fears at 332 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: its essence was a sound forged by two uniquely different 333 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: creative minds. Well, we had the band Graduate and and 334 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: that band when we were eighteen to wait for Roland 335 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: to turn eighteen, signed a record deal with the record 336 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: label in England. Um, but we we never felt comfortable 337 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: in that band. It was like a kind of sixties 338 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: graduate Yeah, sixties kind of retrosh lighthearted pop song covers. 339 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: He was doing most of the writing Roland, and still 340 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: to this day it's Roland. But I would say then me, 341 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: But it's it's hard to really sort of quantify the 342 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: writing thing because even when Roland's writing a lot of 343 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: the time, and certainly in early in our career, during 344 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: the hurting especially, I'd always be in the room and 345 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: i'd be I'm normally the one in the bag as 346 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: I am as a sort of producer, going no, yes, yeah, 347 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: that that's that's bad. Um, so you're kind of doing 348 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: it together. I don't like the word tongue. Take the 349 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: word tongue out exactly, well, and those things have happened 350 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: like that. That line is dreadful, that's just horrible, get 351 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: rid of it. And he was receptive, absolutely, Yeah, he 352 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: wanted to collaborate with he wanted to amuse in the background. Yeah, 353 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: And I think this happens with a lot of writers 354 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: in any industry, where you can get so self involved 355 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: that you don't know what's good or not. You don't 356 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: know what's resonating with other people because it's all in 357 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: your head. So I'm kind of the sounding board, I guess. 358 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: So that's sort of how it works. When we worked together, 359 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: you know, on The Hurting we did a lot more 360 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: stuff together on the newest album we've done, The Tipping Point. 361 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: This is the first time we've worked very closely together 362 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: in a long time. Which band of viewers had the 363 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: number one song in Spain that was graduate? Okay? How 364 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: did how did that happen? How did English guys from 365 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: Bath write a song about reggae that became the number 366 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 1: one hit in Spain? What the hell is going on? 367 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: I had no idea. I mean they kind of it's 368 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: because we were young and good looks. It was. It 369 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: was definitely sort of danceable and it just took off 370 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: in Spain for some obscure reason. I mean, there's no 371 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: rhyme or reason to it. So we had screaming girls 372 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: after us in Spain and that's you know, this is 373 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: how I remember when John Lennon was killed, because that's 374 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: what we worked. We were in Spain promoting that single 375 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: in the hotel in Spain, and so every interview ends 376 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: up doing, of course, was about John Lennon. But yeah, 377 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: that was weird. So it was kind of our first 378 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: taste of success as such. But then as a band, 379 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: we then went touring around Europe in two vans, ugging 380 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: the gear, ourselves, driving ourselves and myself in Roland. As 381 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: you know, I don't I don't need to say this 382 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: too many times, but we were not really particularly into 383 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: heart labor and we decided by the end of this 384 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: three weeks of touring Germany that we'd had enough and um, 385 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: we sort of sat down together and said, you know, 386 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: this is not for us then, and and that the 387 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: other guys in the band we loved it, you know, 388 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: they loved just playing live. They were party kind of people, 389 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: and we wanted to do something that had more depth. 390 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna read from our prep it says the 391 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: song mad World was born at the time in their 392 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: lives as they were finding themselves as young adults. We 393 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: were sitting in his flat, says Smith, and we were 394 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: looking out the window with people going to work in 395 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: existences we thought were pointless. So did you have I 396 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: mean artists, You're like, what's the point? Where do we 397 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: fit in? Yeah, that was the whole. That was more 398 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: the point. The point was we felt we did not 399 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: it in in that world. We we definitely felt outside 400 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: of that world. We didn't feel we could ever be 401 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: in that world. We didn't understand it. I didn't understand training, 402 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: the idea of training for a career and then being 403 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: in that career for the rest of your life, even 404 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: though I ended up training for this career, being in 405 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: this career in my all life. But I don't consider 406 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: this a career because it's a passion and it's something 407 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: I enjoy doing. So it's it's slightly different. But yeah, 408 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: we were looking at it people and it was it 409 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: was in the morning and they were all going to 410 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: work and and we were like this. It was just 411 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: like this sort of you know, treadmill of people going 412 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: then going to lunch and then going back and then 413 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, five o'clock, they all go home and all 414 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: kind of dressed the same, and it was just peculiar 415 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: to us. So, yeah, we we felt like outsiders to 416 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: a certain degree. And I think, you know, the people 417 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: we related to at that point in time were each other. 418 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: That was pretty much it, because we both felt the 419 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: same way. Collaborators. Yeah, and that's when we, you know, 420 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: when we decided to leave Graduate because we didn't feel 421 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: like the other three. We didn't feel like we had 422 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: any thing in common with them. They didn't feel like outsiders. 423 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: They wanted, you know, to do They're going to play 424 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: that same pub forever. Oh absolutely, you know, as long 425 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: as they got free drinks and got laid afterwards. That 426 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: was That was pretty much what they wanted to um. 427 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: And we wanted to say something, you know, that was 428 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: our desire. And yeah, and so we decided to leave. 429 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: And and this coincided at a time in music when 430 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: you know, synthesizers were just becoming bigger. The Lynn Drum 431 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: Machine had just come in, which used real drum samples, 432 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: even though they don't sound real to me anymore, but 433 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: they were the most real you could find at that 434 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: point in time. So you didn't need a drummer. You 435 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: didn't need a keyboard. You know, anyone could do it. 436 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: You could program it and you could sequence it yourself. 437 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: So you didn't need to be an expert keyboard player. 438 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: You didn't need to be a fantastic drummer. You just 439 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: program it yourself. The computer was expert enough. Yeah, it 440 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: would correct your timing, it would you know? It would it? 441 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: Would you know, give you suggestions, you know, I mean 442 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: for like a sequence like do do do do? Do? 443 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: You know? What we do is hold a chord and 444 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: the keyboard did it for you, you know, So it 445 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: was you guys are shaping this yourselves when Roland is 446 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: writing and your chip and you're pitching in there and 447 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: so forth, and you're doing this stuff, and then you 448 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: wind up getting into a studio where my understanding is 449 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: people who get to that level, you know, once you 450 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: hit it big and eighty five, they have a surge 451 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: of producers that want to work with them and record 452 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: with them. What did a producer give to you? What 453 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: did they do for? They have any help with that 454 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: with that question? We didn't need that help eventually, I 455 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: mean songs. So the Big Chair was the last time 456 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: we used a producer. Since then we produced ourselves with 457 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: the help of an engineer or you know, someone else 458 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: normally is in the studio, but but the production is 459 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: normally ours because we learned enough by then, or a 460 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: primal scream therapist as well. Yeah, Arthur General came to 461 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: one of our shows. He came to a show in London, 462 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: and uh I met him. It was very pleasant, very nice, 463 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: and he's like, can I take you to lunch? He 464 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: wanted to be in the business and Hollywood and he was. 465 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: He was that. He was so you know all the 466 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: things I dislike about Los Angeles, but you've but you've 467 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: lasted there a long time, you know. I feel more 468 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: at home in New York. I have to say New 469 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: York is the same. New Yorkers have changed. And what's 470 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: changed is there's a decrease in the number of people 471 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: who got the key rule, which is you have to 472 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: be very aware of other people. Whenever people said that 473 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: New Yorkers were rude or what have you, I was 474 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: always taken him back because I thought New Yorkers when 475 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: I first came here in the late seventies to go 476 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: to finish college, um, New Yorkers were some of the 477 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: most respectful and polite because they knew we were in 478 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: this thing together. Remember I was with a therapist years 479 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: ago during the time of my life because I was 480 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: living out there and I was behind the wheel of 481 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: a car. So I had to stop drinking because I 482 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: was ship faced drunk every for like two years in 483 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: l A behind the wheel of a car. And one 484 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: day I woke up and what that's got to end? 485 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: And this is this therapist said to me. He goes, 486 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: I have a tip for you. He says, here's the 487 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: only thing I believe you need to keep in mind. 488 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: That's the best form of therapy. And he said, forgive everybody. 489 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: And I sat there and I go, wow, man, I go, 490 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: you mean Jesus. And he goes, well, don't set your goals. 491 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: That trying to lower the bar a little bit, you know, 492 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: it kind of like Jesus. Maybe trying to be a 493 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: little like Jesus. And I thought to myself, that blew 494 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: my mind. He was just he said, just forgive everybody 495 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: and move on with your which brings me to you 496 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: and him when you when you split up. Now, when 497 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: you split up with someone, I'm less interested in the 498 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: acrimony because everything is the same. I mean, in the 499 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: idea that another generation of people around the world are 500 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: going to be spray painted by Beatlemania. Again, since Get 501 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: Back came out, I couldn't watch it. Um it was 502 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: interesting Roland watched the whole thing. I watched forty minutes 503 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: and why it brought back too many bad memories. I 504 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: was like, I've been there. I fucking hated it. And 505 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: it's just, you know, because McCartney was Roland at that 506 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: point in time, and you know, and I and I 507 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: was I've actually, to be honest, I think I was 508 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: probably more George. I don't know, but it was that 509 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: kind of you know, someone is just getting a bit 510 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: too big because I, in my opinion, you know. And 511 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: again based on the first fourteen minutes I watched, although 512 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: it may have been necessary because someone had to be 513 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: the driving force I guess once Epstein died, indeed, someone 514 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: had to be a vacuum. Yeah. And also I think, 515 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: weirdly at the age they were then, I think was 516 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: the age pretty much we were when we split up, 517 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: so I can relate. And again it brought back bad memories, 518 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: which is why I broke up. We broke up in 519 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: I well, I left after Seeds of Love at the 520 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: end of the tour, So I was I was twenty 521 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: nine then, so late twenties, but I like that. But 522 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: I'd already decided I was going to leave prior to 523 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: the tour. Made the big mistake of telling Roland that 524 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: before we toured. But that's a different story. Should have 525 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: probably wait, you wanted to know how you felt? Yeah, 526 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: and that didn't care my last tour on the surface, no, 527 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean he was like, what fuck you? Then? Um, 528 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: but I think he was kind of hurt by it, 529 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: and that's sort of probably come out since then, you know. 530 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: But what it is and or at least what I've discovered, 531 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: and which is why New York I've always said, and 532 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: my wife, and they go hand in hand because we 533 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: met in New York, the city, and my wife for 534 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: my savior at that point in time, because what happens 535 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: in your mid to late twenties. You don't want to 536 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: be that guy from that band. You really want to 537 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: be an individual you were you were still looking for 538 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: your individuality and who you are is in our cases 539 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: men or you know, And I think the same applies 540 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: for women. That's when you're really becoming established as an 541 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: individual and to be a part of this group. I 542 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: didn't feel comfortable in it anymore. Plus the fame side 543 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: was really screwing me up, so it wasn't healthy for me. 544 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: I drank too much, probably took it was the eighties. 545 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 1: Probably took too much cocaine at that point in time. 546 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was health. Really did a lot 547 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: of cocaine in the eighties. Strange, so obviously you know 548 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: the experience. Um, So I just didn't think it was healthy. 549 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: And and England, you know, the answer to everything in 550 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: England is you know, if you're older, it's put the catalan, 551 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: I'll go and make some tea. Or if you're at 552 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: that age is let's just go down the pub and 553 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: get sucked up. You know that, will you know, if 554 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: you're feeling sad, let's go to the pub. Um And 555 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: I knew that's not what I needed. Um And I've 556 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: met Frances in New York, and that's not the way 557 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: New York operates. Particularly. I mean, obviously people drink here, 558 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: and I did to a certain degree when I came here, 559 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: but I stayed with a friend up stay this This 560 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: was during the recording of Seeds of Love. I was. 561 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: I went through a divorce during the Caesar love and 562 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: it really that and the drinking and everything else that 563 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: was going on just really messed me up. And I'm like, I, 564 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: I can't be just going down the pub. This is 565 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: not going to help. But how does the shy guy 566 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: who gets married and for whatever reason, it doesn't matter, 567 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: your first marriage ends. Were you at the height of 568 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: your fame when the first marriage marriage ended? Was it 569 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: prior No? So it was a casualty of fame to 570 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: a degree, to a degree. I mean, it wasn't my choice, 571 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, I think you know, it was one of 572 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: those things where clearly I got married too young. So 573 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: what gave you the courage or gave you the ability 574 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: to get married again? Oh? Well that was because I 575 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: had grown up by then, you know, you know, I 576 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: I to get over my divorce weirdly, I mean, this 577 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: is why I have, you know, some kind of guardian 578 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: angel looks so after me. But I was like, I 579 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: need to go stay with someone who doesn't drink, right, 580 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: So I need to just like deal with the emotion 581 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: because I wasn't dealing with how hurt and destroyed I 582 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: was by this divorce. I went to this tour manager 583 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: and his wife, who was you know in a a 584 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, not a bit of matters. But neither of 585 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: them drank. So I went and stay with them in Brewster, upstate, 586 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: New York. Just not that far outside the city, I guess. 587 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: And I was with them depressed for like two weeks, 588 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: you know, just letting the emotion out, just feeling it. 589 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: And then I think after two weeks they got bored 590 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: with me being there. Now that we're taking you into 591 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: the city, we're going out. There's this party St. Patrick's 592 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: Day party happening in It was in the meatpacking district. 593 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: Let's go out, Let's get you out, come on. So 594 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: I went out with them, and weirdly, that's where I 595 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: met my wife. So how long did you know where 596 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: after you got married? Oh, we'd got married quite a 597 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: while later. Um, we dated for a while. Yeah, we 598 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: lived together by the end of that year. By the 599 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: end of A T eight, I bought the apartment, my 600 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: apartment in New York in Soho soho, Yeah, on Mercer 601 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: Street between Houston and Prince. What years were you in 602 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: New York A T eight to so for me, I mean, 603 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: after you get married and you have a kind of 604 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: tumultuous partying with that person getting married. I was single 605 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: for eleven years and it was really tough, and I 606 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: dated people, and I dated one person in particularly who 607 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: just got sick of the fact that I wouldn't get married. 608 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had a very close relationship with them, 609 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: and they were you know, I was, you know, only 610 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: with that woman. But I just couldn't. I just can't 611 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: do it. Well, we were my hat myself, and France 612 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: has never really put much emphasis on being married. She's 613 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: never taken my name. Can't blame her with the name 614 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: Mike Smith. But um, you know, she was known as 615 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: Francis Pennington in the industry. She's always been known as 616 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: you know, as that in music industry, which you know 617 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: she was well known in, especially in America. I mean, 618 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: in fact, when I used to go into MTV, they 619 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: used to call me Mr Pennington's because they knew Frances far. Yeah, 620 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: these no know her better, far better than me. Then 621 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: it gets back to your other ex who you remarry 622 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: in musical terms, so how did you get back together? Well, 623 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: I mean the comedy line is by facts, if anyone 624 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: remembers what effects is. But no, we had ongoing business 625 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: in interest together. You know, I left. We didn't speak 626 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: to each other at all during my parent in how 627 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: long um nine years? You know, I was just enjoying 628 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: life in New York. You know that there was this 629 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: joy and again the fame side, the other thing New 630 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: York gave me in the fame side. In England, I 631 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: lived in Bath my hometown, so I'm ostensibly the most 632 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: famous person ever born there. So you can't take a 633 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: ship with everyone knowing about it. But you come to 634 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: New York and no one gives a damn. You know, 635 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: I mean I I in the ten years I lived 636 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: in New York, ten years I lived in New York. 637 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: I've stopped on the street once in the last four 638 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: years that my kid has been at n y U, 639 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: and I've coming to visit a lot more. I've been 640 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: stopped far more times. We're interestingly, and all by younger people. 641 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: There is this resurgence of interest in music. Weird, and 642 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: it happened to me on the way here. Good music 643 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: is always going to come back. Good music research. That 644 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 1: is my theory. I well, my theory has always been 645 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: that good music, if you put some thought and some 646 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: depth into it, is the music that will last, you know, 647 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: And this is where I have disagreements with people who 648 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: are fans of an era. Right. So I get so 649 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: many people that you know, of my age, not younger 650 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,479 Speaker 1: people that come up to me and say, you know, 651 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: music nowadays is not as good as it was in 652 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: the eighties, and I'm like, well, yeah it is. You 653 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: just got to go find it. And you have this 654 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: weird vision of nostalgia for that decade. But the music 655 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: you're remembering is the good stuff that was just as much. 656 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: That was just as much crap then as there is error, 657 00:32:54,480 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: just as much Tears for Fears Hurt Smith. If you're 658 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: enjoying this episode, don't keep it to yourself, Tell a friend, 659 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: and be sure to follow us on the I Heart 660 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 661 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: When we returned, Kurt Smith shares the circumstances that led 662 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: to his breakup with bandmate Roland or Zeball. I'm Alec 663 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing That's Kurt 664 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: Smith singing Mad World from Tears for Fear three album. 665 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: The Hurting Smith left Tears for years. He moved to 666 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: the United States and pursued other musical interests, resulting in 667 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: several solo albums and a new band called Mayfield. Kurt 668 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: Smith and roland Or Zibow reunited in two thousand, a 669 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: decade after their acrimonious split. What began as business communications 670 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: through a fax machine eventually led to the pair finally 671 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: meeting face to face. We end up talking on the phone. 672 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: So when we see at the time he was in 673 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: England and I was had just moved to l A. 674 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: The fact came through about some like business thing because 675 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: we own these buildings in England together, and I was 676 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: kind of like tired of talking through lawyers and accountants 677 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: and you're spending money on them every time you're using them, 678 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: and I'm like, why don't we just get on the 679 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: phone and talk about this. Because it was a complicated 680 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: sort of situation, and so we did. You know, his 681 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: recollection is, Oh my god, you I sounded very American 682 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: to him, and because I lived, you know, in America 683 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: ten years by then, and it's just felt like the 684 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: so much water under the bridge. He had already had 685 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: a family, I was just starting a family, and we'd 686 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: grown up. We would just just as simple as that. 687 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: We were. We were fully formed. We were fully formed 688 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: adults who really didn't have those same grudges when we parted, 689 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: we weren't fully formed adults. We didn't have that individual strength. 690 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: Where did you see each other? Next? I went back 691 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: because my family he lived in Bath, both my brothers 692 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: still lived in Bath. So I was back. He was 693 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: in Bath at that time. Then we still lives still 694 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: as a house there. Yeah, oh my god. So I 695 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: was back visiting my family and my mother who was 696 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: still alive then, and my brothers and we went out 697 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: to dinner and it seemed like quite normal and it 698 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: was quite pleasant. And then he said, you know, you 699 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: fancy sort of maybe trying to work together again, and 700 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: so I I said, well, we can have a go. 701 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: I mean, let's why not, you know, let's let's have 702 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: a go and see if anything comes. And if nothing comes, 703 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: no pressure, then it's we're not on the same wavelength anymore. 704 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: And that's two. And we went in and we wrote 705 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: this song called the Closest Thing to Heaven, which is 706 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: offered an album called Everybody Loves a Happy Ending, which 707 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: of course you know, is the funny title of the album, 708 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: and it ended up being a kind of lighthearted album. 709 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: It was more of a celebration of us getting back 710 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: together again. It it didn't really have the depth of 711 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: the first three albums and the new album the tipping point, 712 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: I don't think. But it was still really good and 713 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: we had a really good time doing it, and and 714 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: it was nice to be working together again. So since 715 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 1: then we've been touring and working together and it seems 716 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: to be good. You know, we we know we need 717 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: into our individual space. You know, when we're not working together, 718 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: we don't see each other. We don't see each other socially. 719 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: We know we're very different people, but we also know 720 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: now that that's our strength. But also I'm always wondering, 721 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: you know, I read this is only from what I 722 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: read that some of the tension was because of his perfectionism. 723 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: Was the world they keep using his perfectionism? Yeah, that 724 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: was definitely the tension during Seeds of Love. Yeah, that 725 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: he was getting into everything had be precise and exact 726 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: and down to like when we had man who catch 727 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: a come in and play drums on the song called 728 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: Batman song, and Man who is a wonderful drummer, but 729 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: his timing is not exact. You know, a lot of 730 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: the time, which I personally like. I I like the 731 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: kind of roughness. But Roland was into grids. He was 732 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: into looking at the fair Light, which was the computer 733 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: we were using at the time. So there was a 734 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: man who's take on man on Batman song is is 735 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: twenty takes edited together, so they were exactly in time. 736 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: And that kind of thing drove me up. But at 737 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: the same time, did you find yourself, like, years later 738 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: after you split up with him, you were in a 739 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: room with other people and you're sitting there going God, 740 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: there's a part of me that really misses Rowland's perfections. 741 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: Were their benefits to it as well his approach, Yeah, 742 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: But weirdly the benefits are not, you know, because he's 743 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: got over to a certain degree that neatness, and you 744 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: know he does Yeah, he's now got into more feel stuff. 745 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's moved more towards me on that. 746 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: I think what I missed was Roland has this which 747 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: can be incredibly useful and frustrating and annoying, all of 748 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: these things and thoroughly enjoyable lack of a filter. And 749 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I missed. Ship just comes out 750 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: of him and sometimes it's bad, but now and again 751 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: it's just like whoa where did that come from? And 752 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: it's wonderful. I don't have that freedom. I'm I am 753 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: the introvert. I don't you know, I I haven't. I 754 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: have many filters, So how it it's interesting how it works, 755 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: and we've come to appreciate each other far more, and 756 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: certainly during the tipping point, we definitely got to a 757 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: point where we really appreciated what we both brought to 758 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: the party. And I think this is the first time 759 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: that's happened since the hurting to me, and I think 760 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: Roland weirdly, you know, we were awarded this thing called 761 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: the Ivan Novello Award, which is a songwriting award in 762 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: England for our body of work. It's it's kind of 763 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: like the musical Oscars, kind of in England. And he, 764 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: you know, he gave his old speech because he tends 765 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: to be enjoy those kind of things, and he had 766 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: a few drinks. He described me as the break to 767 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: his accelerator. And I think that's probably the best description 768 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: I've I've heard of our relationship together. Now I see 769 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: that you acted, How did you feel? How did you like? Oh? 770 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,760 Speaker 1: I loved it. It was fun, but I was playing myself, 771 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: you know. And I've done it like four was it 772 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: for yourself? Yeah? Yeah, in this some TV show called 773 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: Psych and and and the movies as well. And actually, 774 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: and it's a fan, I mean James Rode Rodriguez, who's 775 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: who's also a Tish alumni. He's a huge fan. And um, 776 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: they did on one the first one I went on. Um, 777 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: I redid their theme tune for the second one, and 778 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: then the other ones were just kind of acting basically. 779 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: But I always was playing myself. So I mean, I 780 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: guess you call it acting because they're not the words 781 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: I would necessarily say. Even though I did change something, 782 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: I spent my life saying things other people have exhaust Yeah, 783 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,479 Speaker 1: I mean, and and there are times I I said 784 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: to them like, do you mind if I change it 785 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: a little bit, because it just that there's no way 786 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: I would say that in your mouth. Yeah. Now, what 787 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: about teaching? Have you ever taught My guest taught it 788 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: at vocals um No, not music business um really more 789 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: than anything or young artists, So I guess taught at 790 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: n YU when I lived in wasn't there yet? My 791 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: actually my connection with them, why you goes back a 792 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: ways because I also opened because I was on the 793 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: charity board, which is actually weirdly how me and Francis 794 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: had our second date because I started the charity in America, 795 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: the Nord of Robbins Music Therapy Center that's at n 796 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: y U. I opened that because I was part of, 797 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, raising the funds to build it that program 798 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: at NYU. What would you say, you guys, the emphasis 799 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,879 Speaker 1: on your new album, but what kind of an album 800 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: did you want? Did you sit down and map out 801 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: the texture of that? And then we did eventually again 802 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: the same thing. I mean, it took us forever because 803 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: we spent seven years working on this record from start 804 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: to finish. But but initially it was at the behest 805 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: of sort of our management and record company at the 806 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: time what they wanted us to all these young producers 807 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: and songwriters and hopefully, you know, get us to make 808 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: a modern record. And I have no idea what that means. Still, 809 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: don't your voice you're such I mean, I hope you 810 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: never stop singing because you have such a beautiful voice 811 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: and such a signature voice. How was that song written? 812 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: When you write a song that just resonates now, I 813 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: mean everybody wants to all the what's an interesting one 814 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: because it was an afterthought. Effectively, when you get sort 815 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 1: of near the end of a project, you then start 816 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: looking at what you're missing, because we always like an 817 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: album to have a sort of not necessarily a story. 818 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it becomes a story bit it's a journey, 819 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: so it needs these ups and downs, and sometimes it 820 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: needs something quiet and deep, and sometimes you're missing that lighthearted, 821 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: kind of bouncy, poppier kind of song. I think Boys 822 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: of Summer had come out, you know, that's the kind 823 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: of like driving down a freeway in the US, a 824 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: kind of song that bounces along and you can sing 825 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: along to it, even though the lyrics ended up being 826 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: a lot deeper than that. So there's this sort of 827 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: balance of something that you may not listen intently to 828 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: the lyrics, but it's sort of is a little air 829 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: warm already, and then you kind of go, oh, that 830 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: song is heavier than I thought it was. Because it's 831 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: a bouncy pop song. We had this shuffle beat that 832 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: don't do, Don't do, Don't do, don't We're like, yeah, 833 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing we're missing. So we started 834 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: working on this shuffle beat, and that's where everybody came 835 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: from and from start to finish. And the album took 836 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: us two years to make, but that one song two weeks. 837 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I look at those pictures of those albums. 838 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: You you mean you look like you look like an 839 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: altar boy, really like such a sweet little looking a 840 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: little boy, a little boy. You were a little boy. 841 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: When you look at those albums, you see that, kid, 842 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: what do you think? What? The fact that I've survived 843 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: it is a miracle in and of itself, and the 844 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: fact that we're still doing and still enjoying it, and 845 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,479 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, last year when we toured, 846 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: was our most successful tour ever in our career, and 847 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of crazy. You're gonna keep at it 848 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: for a little while. Maybe without question. The two of 849 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,760 Speaker 1: us now the closest we've been since we first started 850 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: Tears for Fears as such, since we were like a teen. 851 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: We're old enough and wise enough to appreciate what we 852 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: both bring to the party, and and that's a great 853 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: position to be in my thanks to Tears for Fears, 854 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: Kurt Smith, I'll leave you with a little bit more 855 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: of everybody wants to rule the world from Songs from 856 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: the Big Chair. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing, is 857 00:43:45,520 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: brought to you by my Heart Radio. Say that you 858 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 1: have never, never did why while it was when never? 859 00:44:29,480 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: That's my friend. When body sh a