WEBVTT - Carbon Removal Solutions, Risks from `Forever Chemicals' 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:05.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week Inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.160 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 global business, finance and tech news as it happens. Bloomberg 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:18.320 Business Week with Caro Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.479 All Right, everybody, when we talk about carbon emissions on 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:22.800 our program and the Patsinet zero, we often talk about 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.240 the carbon emissions associated with power generation, transportation, food production, 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:28.520 a lot of things. There is, though, a big one 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.640 lurking that doesn't get as much attention, although BusinessWeek has 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:33.519 been kind of certainly trying to get to it, and 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.360 that is cement production, what goes into building materials and manufacturing. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.280 Cement is responsible for seven percent of global carbon dioxide emissions, 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.720 more than what comes from all the trucks in the world. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:45.839 This according to the International Energy Agency. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.040 That's an important stat it is. And you're not going 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:49.680 to believe where I'm going to go right now, Okay, 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.239 I'm going to go there. Three time NBA champion Rick 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.520 Fox is trying to do something about this. You know 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.360 him from his time on the Boston Celtics and the Lakers, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.680 or maybe even as an actor producer. He's got hundreds 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.240 of movie and TV episode credits. But he's also the 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.000 founder and CEO of Partana. It's a company that creates 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.520 an alternative to Portland cement made of recycled ingredients. The 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.480 company says it's quote developed the world's first building material 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:15.200 that avoids emissions and removes carbon from the atmosphere. Rick 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.920 Fox joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive at Brokers Studio. Wow, 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.959 I mean, okay, we talk about the NBA career, talk 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.920 about your Hollywood career. How do you get to this 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:26.679 part of your career? 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:28.440 What's Rick Fox doing in concrete? 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:28.840 Yes? 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.120 Yeah. The short version is a call to service. It 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.600 started as a call to service to my home country 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.200 in the Bahamas, on the heels of Hurricane disaster Durian 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.720 in twenty nineteen. We were displaced. Some thirty thousand people 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.600 were displaced, Homes were destroyed, people were swept out to 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:50.000 see and outside of donating money from my Bahamas Relief Foundation, 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:51.840 I decided to get on the ground and start to 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.400 ask the question of how do we build more hurricane 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.800 resilient homes, more sustainable homes to dig ourselves out of 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.200 the eleven billion dollars debt that we were in as 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.000 a country because of the repeated storms. Now, I grew 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.559 up as a kid in the Bahamas, where hurricanes were 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.840 our version of an amusement park at the time in 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.720 the seventies and eighties. Yeah, it wasn't as severe as 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.160 you see today, and those storms are more and more frequent. 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.400 So for me, it was a call to service to 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.920 try and find a solution beyond just donating money, and 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.160 that led me to a search around twenty twenty when 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.440 the world shut down and we can rest asshore Rick 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.000 Fox is not the material science behind the technology here. 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.800 We'll state that up front here. I have a number 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.320 of scientists and partners who have been innovating concrete for decades. 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.240 They're the best in the industry. One of them have 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.760 been cement Man of the Year, others are. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.799 On the board to day. Hold on, yeah, such a thing, right, Yeah, 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.560 I was not such a congratulations to him. 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.079 Yeah, No, it's nice to have that. It reminds me 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:55.720 of my Shack and Kobe days when we have some 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.840 of the best in the business to work with. So 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.520 they've been innovating concrete and over the course of some 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.000 six years of rigorous innovation. They got to this material 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.360 not only catching lightning in a bottle for multitude of 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.160 times in their careers, but in the case of Partana, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.760 I meant them the point when they were patenting this 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.280 formula and trying to get it from lab into a 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.440 commercial state. And so I formed a company along with 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.680 my founder called Partana Global to bring that out of 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:23.680 the lab and into the world. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.200 Rick tell us exactly what they're doing and what makes 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.679 it sustainable and less impactful on the environment. 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.480 Yes. So, the first thing that you may learn about 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.400 cement as a binder in the production of concrete is 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.160 that it takes an immense amount of energy to get 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.720 to a clinker state, which allows you then to produce concrete. 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.560 We are a plug and play solution without the heating 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.160 and the emissions that come with the creation of clinker. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.160 We have zero Portland cement in our production of concrete. 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.480 We take upscale big industry waste, one product of it 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.839 being from the slag industry to steel manufacturing industry, which 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.480 is slag, and another one being brine, which is a 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.920 desalination industry where those waste materials are pumped into the 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.240 ocean or pumped into landfills. We take them and through our. 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:11.680 Products can be devastating. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:13.920 It can be extremely devastating when if you think about 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.200 cement and its impact on the environment. Heats up our planet, 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.080 then it heats up our oceans and destroys our coral 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.440 It's a repeated cycle of negativity. Right. We get to 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.000 a nature positive concrete by swapping out the bind of 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.360 the Portland cement and replacing it with partana. Those waste materials. 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.200 Through our process and our patented formula get us to 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.400 a interaction with CO two which not only avoids the 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.359 CO two negative emissions when we produce it, but also 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.640 absorbs and remove CO two from the atmosphere carbonation process. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:46.480 So don't trees do that? 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:47.520 Trees do it? 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.400 Actually building it? 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.880 Well, it's it's chemistry, right, So the magic of chemistry 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.400 will generate the process through the interaction and activation of 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.159 the brine in our mix. But but even cement, the 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.040 negativity of cement, it is also absorbing CO two, So 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.760 let's not the problem with us cement is that it 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.760 does so much harm on the front end that it 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:11.400 can't celebrate the back end. 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.360 In the actual manufacturing em Yes, you. 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.680 Can't celebrate the back end of it. And so in 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.360 the case of our company, we had a two year 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.000 close working relationship with one of the top manufacturers of 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.720 cement products, Top Works out of Germany. They just validated 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:28.680 us at the World of Concrete in Vegas as the 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.720 only replacement for Portland cement in the concrete industry right 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.320 now today. Now there are a lot of people out 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.960 there reducing Portland cement in the production of concrete, but 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.040 no one can one PC replace it, avoid and remove 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:41.520 COEO too. 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.000 At the same time, who's back in the company? 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.440 So I'd give a huge gratitude and shout out to 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.920 cherubc Ventures, our angel investors that have been there from 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.360 day one. They've brought a number of their network folks 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:59.520 along with us, major individuals that have supported us. And 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.360 now as we move towards this year, scaling being the 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.039 next challenge. We're hoping to have the likes of some 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.040 of the biggest movers in the world that can actually 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:08.520 scale this. 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:10.480 Uh where are you right now? And it's like how 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.040 much of you is right now? 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.320 We raised thirty million dollars, so we're moving into this 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.840 year now to scale four factories in different regions globally. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.320 If it's If it's so sounds like win win. Yes, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.480 it would seem to me that anybody who was in 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.520 the building environment would say, I'm in it. Let us 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.280 help you scale it up. Yes, what's what's the Does 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:31.880 it cost a lot to do this? 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.400 So prices in terms of manufacturing and capex building a 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.040 facility is something that's not exciting to investors when you're 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.080 when you're burying capitas dollars. But once you establish that, 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.440 then you have the ability to generate return on that 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.280 investment in our factories in the first year. So we 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:49.800 we turn around rather quickly here. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.400 So the actual product is competitive with existing building or 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.200 so existing concrete. 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.279 Right, So cementcha is a commodity. Uh And as you 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.479 can imagine different parts of the world on where you 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.320 get your materials from, cement can be priced slightly all 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.080 over the place, right, No different with our formula. The 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.400 exciting part of our business model is we become a 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:11.760 plug and play. When you go to a factory that 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.200 is producing cement products today to get to concrete products 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.200 finished products, we can swap that in and out in 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.280 a plug in play fashion in less than a week. 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.080 So the excitement level there is no new equipment, no 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.160 new materials. You're really taking out the binder of Portland 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.320 cement and you're adding our binder of partana. So that's 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.560 so when you talk about the cost, cost is relative, right, 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.120 I'll just say this one point I'd like to remind 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.240 people you will pay depending on your problem. That will 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.240 determine what you're willing to pay. Correct And so in 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.240 the case of our products and material we're making affordable 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.680 homes in the Bahamas some thousand homes all the way 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.000 up to luxury based developments. So whether we're making a 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:59.480 CMU block or a pouring a bridge or a planter, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.720 or whatever retail product you can make, you're going to 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.160 find a wide range of product and pricing. But for us, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.560 we hope with scale to bring our products down below 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.360 what cement products cost, which we know we can get to, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.119 and then on top of that we generate an asset 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.040 class at a bottom line in carbon credits that can 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.600 be used for good and actually can incentivize our partners. 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:23.680 This is one of those Internet You're going to have 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:25.480 to come back because we're running out of time and 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.520 we know we want to do more good luck. Let 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:29.640 us know how things are going. Thank you, Rick Fox, 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.360 of course, we appreciate your time today a partana well. 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.520 From rainwater in the Himalayas to whales off the Pharoh 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:38.160 Paroll Islands. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.240 You've got to go there. I know I haven't been there, but. 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:40.640 I want to go. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.440 Well, whales off the Pharaoeh Islands to groundwater in Minnesota. 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:44.000 P FAT. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.040 So called forever chemicals have been detected in every corner 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.000 of the planet and in the blood of almost every 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.640 human test it. If you've been listening to us over 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.319 the last couple of weeks, you know we are a 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.040 little obsessed with this and trying to get to the 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:55.600 bottom of it. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:55.720 Well. 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.160 It makes sense though, because these so called forever chemicals 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.800 have been linked to an increasingly long list of health problems, 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.000 including obesity, fertility issues, and cancer and carol. There's a 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.480 very high chance that will come into contact with them 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.080 today and they are almost certainly already in our bodies. 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:10.480 We talk about a lot at home. I'm going to 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:12.480 say we talked about it over the weekend. We wanted 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.720 to understand a little bit more about them and on 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.640 an industrial level, what's being done. Joining us is Kelly 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.920 Edgren and she is senior director of Sustainability over Ascent. A. 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.040 Set works with manufacturing companies to analyze their global supply 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.720 chains and look for sustainability risks, and she focuses specifically 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:34.120 on risks from Pithaz. Yeah. She joins us from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:34.720 She's on zoom. 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.000 Kelly. Great to have you here with us. You know, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:38.800 I was just thinking. I paused for a moment because 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.200 I was just thinking about the conversation we were just having 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.520 with Rick Fox about just looking for ways to do 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:49.480 things that are sustainable and don't harm the environment, Like 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.600 how could we all get on board and how do 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.960 we unwind ourselves from how much as a society we 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.600 rely on plastics, all different types of plastics for just 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.600 about it. I look around me and I'm surrounded by plastic. 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.840 I look around at home, I'm surrounded by plastic. 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.760 Yeah, it's definitely a struggle because, of course, a lot 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.480 of those things make life more convenient, right, and the 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.480 kypos are no different. So I think that's the challenge 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:18.760 is we have to maybe adjust the way that we're 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.600 living in our expectations for those materials as well, you know, 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:23.760 before we can really. 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:24.680 Get them out of our lives. 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.920 What do you mean by adjusting expectations sort of? Is 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.200 that just resigning to the notion that these are in 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:30.720 our bodies? 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:31.719 Don't say that? 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:32.920 What does it mean though? 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:33.800 Please? 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:35.880 Yeah? 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.360 So I think when I when I say that, think 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.720 of something like a nonstick pan that's coded with teflon 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:43.400 and that's a. 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.240 Very We got rid of those in our house, right, 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:47.000 that's great. 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.480 I love that you're all obsessed with PPOs, because so 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:51.280 am I. Yeah. 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.360 So a lot of people, though, you know, are maybe 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.760 ready to make a shift to cast iron because it's 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.360 a little less convenient and a little more work. And 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.200 I think that's the challenge, and that's the struggle that 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.199 a lot of manufacturers have, is this paradox between customers 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.480 who want them to get rid of pfoss and yet 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.440 those customers maybe are ready to give up the properties. 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.280 That they're used to from PPOs. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.240 And I think that's the real challenge, right, is changing 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.400 that understanding and expectations among customers as well. 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.920 Should we as consumers expect that it's got to be 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:27.200 a slow transition just because they're so entrenched in the system, 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.280 And can we really afford to slow down or do 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.959 we need to kind of do something radical and what 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.240 might that be or how can we get there? 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:40.199 Well, I do think one radical disruption coming from manufacturers 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.920 is three discontinuing the manufacture of pipos And this is 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.640 kind of forcing everybody's hand, right, because if you can't 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.840 get the parts anymore, it doesn't matter if you've designed 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.080 them out or not, you can't make those products. So 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.720 I do think we see some radical forces already affecting 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.839 this change, and we'll have to see if some other 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.000 chemical manufacturers follow Threem's lead and stop making those PFOS 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.320 chemicals altogether. If you can't get the parts, it doesn't matter, 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:12.160 you know, if you're in the scope of a regulation 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:12.520 or not. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.079 Right, they're going to exit all PIFAs manufacturing by the 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.160 end of twenty twenty five. How big is three AM 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.080 compared to some of the other players that are out there. 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.000 If you look at the NGO keem SEC it's a 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:28.400 Swedish NGO. They've looked at the top twelve p FOS manufacturers. 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:29.760 In the world, and three M is on that list. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.719 They're not the largest one, but they have a very 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.880 broad range of PFOS chemicals. Of course, they've been making 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:40.480 them for getting close to one hundred years. So I 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.840 think it is going to have a significant impact because 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.320 they have a lot of niche chemicals that they're manufacturing 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.400 as well, and again their downstream customers are not going 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:50.960 to be able to get those parts anymore. 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.120 Okay, so the cats out of the bag. We know that. 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.240 When it comes to PFOS, I always like to ask 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.120 people like you who live in these worlds day in 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.640 and day out, Cali, how you have adjusted your lifestyle 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.160 to live in a world like this. I mean, are 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.080 you doing certain things at home that you think all 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.120 of us should do because you're aware of the presence 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.679 of these chemicals? Apart from getting rid of nonstick, have. 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.640 You banned every plastic container in your home? 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:17.120 Well, I do have. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.360 My glass water bottle here that I drink out of. Yeah, 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.000 you know, I get ask that question actually a lot. 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.680 So of course there's the pants, I've changed my makeup, 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:33.520 I've changed my dental floss. Definitely trying to avoid plastic 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.800 for a number of reasons, not just pifoss. There's a 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.600 lot of other chemicals in plastic, right, but then there's 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.800 some other things that there's just not alternatives yet. So 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.400 I am waiting for industry to somewhat catch up. I 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.360 no longer spray my you know, winter booths with with pfos. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.920 So I just where you become aware of it, you know, 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.120 that's a choice that you can make and try to 0:13:58.160 --> 0:13:59.199 find an alternative. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.000 Well, I wonder if that's the first thing to do 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.360 in terms of labeling, right that if there is something 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.160 on a product. We've done that with what transfats and 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.520 different things, right, We're all very aware things like corn syrup, 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.640 you know, and just there are things that raise the 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.720 awareness that if a consumer starts saying no, that's got 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.680 to impact a company's decisions and their supply chain partners. 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.000 Is that fair or Yeah? 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:27.600 Absolutely? 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.600 And there's already a few a handful of state laws 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:35.920 that are migrating towards this, especially for cookware. They're starting 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.640 to require disclosure, you know, in California they have cleaning 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:45.280 products disclosure rules. Of course, California also has Proposition sixty five, 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.560 which has a few peposts in it, and that has 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.560 to be warned to consumers. So I do think that 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.040 we're going to see more laws coming like that. But 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.720 maybe we can't design it out yet, but we at 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.560 least want to make sure that customers are aware before 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.120 they buy the product what they're going to be exposed to, 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:05.040 and I think we're going to see some growing state regulations. 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:05.320 Along that line. 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.520 That much has been written over the past few years, 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:13.360 indeed even a decade about how companies knew about these chemicals, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.000 what they did in terms of disposing these chemicals. You 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.920 have an inside view on what these companies are doing. 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.440 CALLI are they doing the right thing right now? 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.560 Well, I don't want to speak to the past, but 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:33.000 I do think that in the current regulatory framework they 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:37.200 absolutely are, at least certainly the companies that I engage with. 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.680 I think it's important to point out that there are 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.200 very few PFOS chemicals that have actually had laws written 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.160 against them, and so what's happened in the past is 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.520 the way companies were discharging maybe water from their processes 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.720 that had some PFOSS in it. They weren't doing anything 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.600 that wasn't legal, and so I think the thing to 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:03.240 note here is that our understanding of the hazards has changed, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.080 and we are looking backwards. We see things like super 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.080 fun is going to be adding some some PFOS chemicals 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:09.400 to it. 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.880 So I do think there will be some reckoning coming. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.440 But it is important to note that most of those 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:20.280 companies weren't actually, you know, violating any regulations. We just 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.080 are all becoming much more aware now of the hazards 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.040 of pivos. Right. 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.880 The EPA is right, from my understanding, expected to release 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:32.400 a list of known pifiles that companies must report, and 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.120 so we know this is kind of coming down a 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:41.160 lot of industrial facilities, military locations, airports, wastewater plants. What's 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.920 the number one reason for anyone who is listening and 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.960 watching right now why we should be really worried if 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.440 we let this continue at the current rate in terms 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.080 of the amount of pifiles that are out there. 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.800 I don't like to cause panic now. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.720 I just I want to be smart and like because 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.440 you are in this and what people need to know. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.280 I think, first off, drinking water right is a is 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.560 a large concern, and so a lot of states are 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:15.880 enacting laws to start remediation of that drinking water. There 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.159 are ways that you can filter pfas out. You know, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.239 it's expensive, but there are ways to do it. And 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.480 I see a lot of state laws that are really 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.440 focused on drinking water, soil, and air remediation and that's 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:29.960 certainly going to help. Right, let's get it out of 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.760 the water that we live with every single day. I 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.760 think that you know more awareness of things, even choices 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.600 like I will I don't make microwave popcorn because there's 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:42.960 pifos in those bags. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.840 So that education for people, well know. 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.400 That, Hey, ten seconds, where do we look to find 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.000 this information? Ten seconds? 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.040 I think there's a lot of great resources out there. 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.320 I mentioned the NGO ChemSec out of Sweden. They have 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.040 a lot of great information on where key boss can 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:03.560 be found. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.359 And that's a great starting point. 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.920 Well, we so appreciate it. Phil smarter already and a 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.159 little freaked out already too, but you shared it in 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.000 a calm way. It's just things we need to know. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.560 Lit Meditation required right now. Kelly Agrin a senior director 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.560 of sustainability over Assent on Zoom from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.