1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: is Robert Land and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Time for a vault episode today. It's part two of 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: our series on fingernails. This episode originally aired on September three. 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: I think it'll be a scream. Let's dig right in. 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of my 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio album. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our talk about nails, 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: Fingernails Toenails. In the last episode, we talked about how 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: fast nails grow, what influences how fast they grow, some 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: strange decades long self experimentation projects on the measurement of nails, 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: And this time we're going to get out of some 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: of that scientific minutia and jump in to the weirder 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: world of nails and the role that nails and hair 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: play in a lot of very very surprising and interesting, 17 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: magical and religious beliefs. Yeah, and it it makes sense 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: that we would since the nails that we look down 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: at every day, that we you know, find ourselves absent 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: mindedly feeling uh that that in fact enhance our ability 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: to engage physically with the world. They are strange to behold. 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: Like we said before, they're both alive and dead at 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: the same time, at least as you know, in the 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: way that we we think of them. You know, they 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: they're obviously a part of our body, uh, and yet 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: they feel slightly external. You know that there are these 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: things that are like clause but not clause. So it 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: makes sense that we would have some kind of complicated 29 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: magical ideas at times about what they are and what 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: they do. Yeah, and I think some of the magical 31 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: and religious ideas are going to connect with something that 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: we talked about in the last episode, which was this 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,639 Speaker 1: the strange thing I was observing about how our hard 34 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: body parts, the hard external parts like teeth and nails, 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: though you would expect them to be sort of like 36 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: the most uh I don't know what you would call 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: like the most brutally disposable parts of our bodies because 38 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: they're hard. You know, they're like what you put out 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: front in defense or attack. But in fact we've got 40 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: these kind of vulnerability trauma obsessions with these parts of 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: our bodies. Like if you just start worrying about what 42 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: could go wrong with your body, how you could be injured, 43 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: how it could be damaged. A lot of the natural 44 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: places that people go to go to worry about these 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: things our teeth and nails, absolutely, and that's that's why 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: towards the end of the at the last episode, we 47 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: started talking a little bit about Glenn Danzi's fingernails and 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: about how, at least in some music videos or posters 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: that I kind of half remember um from my my 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: teenage years, I recall that he had sharpened fingernails, and 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: I would wonder to myself, well, what purpose did those have? 52 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: And indeed, you know, would sharpened fingernails age you in 53 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: in fights or something? Because I also remember, like Stephen 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: King novels and short stories that I also was reading 55 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: at the time, you'd occasionally have a character show up 56 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: that's sharpened their teeth down to the to file points 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: um or or perhaps even has some sort of like 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: sharpened fingernails, I guess, and uh, and it brings them 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: to wonder like would there be any kind of actual 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: combat or defensive advantage to that sort of thing, And 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: we we mostly decided that there would not really be yes, 62 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: you can scratch your way out of a out of 63 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: a scrape here and there, But there's also a big 64 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: possibility to damage your your fingernails if you're trying to 65 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: use like sharpened fingernails to attack somebody. More than likely, 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: if you encounter somebody with really gnarly looking fingernails that 67 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: have been sharpened to a point, or or indeed, um uh, 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, just look seemingly intentionally creepy, they probably are 69 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: trying to look at the still a little bit like 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: nos Feratu, right, And so this vampire association with long nails. 71 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: In fact, we were just talking about this with Seth 72 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: the other day, uh and and uh Seth. Seth was 73 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: sharing with us the idea that, you know, it's possible 74 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: that the association between long fingernails and vampires could come 75 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: from the idea that often in the old days, you 76 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: might open up if you've you've exhumed a body from 77 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: the graveyard and you notice that their nails look a 78 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: little bit long, and so you think, wait a minute, 79 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: are they still alive in some way or they're getting 80 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: up and roaming around and still growing body tissues. Yeah, 81 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: I feel like this has coming up on the show 82 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,559 Speaker 1: in the past before and it's certainly it goes beyond 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: the world of mere vampires. We talked about it a 84 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: bit in the episode where we talked about the Kappa, 85 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: the Japanese water demon um where you have varying monstrous 86 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: conceptions in the human imagination that are based upon an 87 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: analysis of a physical death to see what happens to 88 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: the body after it dies and the seeming changes that 89 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: take place in the body. And in the case of 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: the vampire, yeah, it's like the bloated form. Uh, the 91 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: impression at least that the hair is still growing, the 92 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: impression that the nails are still growing. So if you 93 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: ask the question is that true, the answer is no, 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: It is not true that hair and fingernails continue to 95 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: grow after death, at least not to any significant degree. Now, 96 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: if the nails and the hair don't keep growing after death, 97 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: that that does leave the question of why so many 98 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: people thought that that was the case. Why Why would 99 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: you look at a corpse and think that its nails 100 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: appear long? And the most common explanation for this tends 101 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: to be based on the dehydration of the corps, that 102 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: as the body begins to decompose, it loses a lot 103 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: of moisture, which causes the retraction of the skin tissues 104 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: around the finger nails and around the nail plate, which 105 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: makes the nail plates look longer because there's there's just 106 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: less skin around them. Now, this helps inform more than 107 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: just our idea of vampires for starters. It also has 108 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: factored into the bare aid a live panics that have 109 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: existed at different times. I believe we we discussed this 110 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: a bit in an episode of Invention on various casket innovations. 111 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: So the idea is, oh, you know, you end up 112 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: digging up this corpse later. Maybe you don't assume that 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: they were some sort of undead fiend, but you might think, oh, 114 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: my goodness, they were still alive for some time after 115 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: we buried them. They must have been buried alive. And 116 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: this led to a fashionable demand in the nineteenth century 117 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: for caskets with escape hatches and ways of getting out. 118 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: If you happen to have been buried alive. Yes, so 119 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: if you want to catch up on that, do check 120 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: out that episode of Invention. It may still be in 121 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: the stuff to boil your mind feed from when we 122 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: put a bunch of those out earlier. In the year. 123 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: But if not, you can find the dedicated fee to invention. 124 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: Even though we're not putting out new episodes of that 125 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: show in that feed, you'll still find all of those 126 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: episodes there for your listening. I think it was a 127 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: three part last October. Yeah, that's what it was. Now. 128 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: In addition to this, you'll also find various myths and 129 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: legends just concerned just general monstrosity in the world. And 130 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: oftentimes you'll have a monster that has long finger nails. 131 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: And this is roughly, you know, associated with the idea that, okay, 132 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: long finger nails imply a wildness, to kind of beastial 133 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: nature of the the entity or the being in question, right, 134 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: what has claws wild animals? Yeah, and though the longer 135 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: finger nails become, the more like the claws of an 136 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: animal they become. Now, there are exceptions to this. Long 137 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: finger nails are sometimes considered fashionable for females. We see 138 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: we see a lot of that in um in modern culture, 139 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: and then also you sometimes see it as a fashion 140 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: for males as well. Long nails, for example, were important 141 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: symbols of social status at various points in Chinese history, 142 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: and they were sometimes painted for visual effect. But also 143 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: sometimes the painting or sometimes the lacquering of the nail 144 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: was as much about strengthening the nail as it was 145 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: about making it fancy, which is an interesting point. And 146 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: apparently this we see echoes of this and other cultures 147 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: as well. I think the ancient Egyptians um are Are 148 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: are thought to have engaged in this sort of thing 149 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: as well, strengthening the nail in order to maintain it's 150 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: elongated uh uh structure. Now, later on in Chinese history, 151 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: ornate finger nail guards were used to protect outer nails. 152 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: So this might be like on the pinky finger, for example, 153 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: and the ring finger uh and uh. And we're we're 154 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: talking some pretty ornate finger coverings here. For instance, the 155 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: six inch long golden nail protectors that were worn by 156 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: the emperorus Dowager Sushi, who ruled China for forty three 157 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: years from eighteen sixty one until her death in nineteen 158 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: o eight. If you look her up, you can find 159 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: actual photographs of her decked out with these things. Now, Robert, 160 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: can you describe Is this more of like a thimble 161 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: type covering that would go over the end of the 162 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: finger and extend out from there, or is it more 163 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: like that finger armor stuff that has joints and goes 164 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: over the whole finger. Um, not really joints per se. 165 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,359 Speaker 1: It is one gets the impression of like long tapering 166 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: golden fingertip covers Um. I think this this sort of 167 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: thing has also been utilized in dance in various Asian cultures. Um. Yeah, 168 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: so they're really neat looking now in terms of just 169 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: longer finger nails in general, the style has also been 170 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: popular with males at different times in Chinese history, with 171 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: longer manicured nails still having a residual cultural association with 172 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: higher classes in society. Uh. One also sees the retention 173 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: of a long, pinky finger nail as a signifier of 174 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: social status. Uh. But then there are also varying levels 175 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: of when you get into the actual reasons uh that 176 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: the individuals um, you know, self identify uh and uh 177 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: and certainly uh uh explain that their their pinky nail. 178 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: They might be it's for good luck or you know, 179 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: it might be there might be some idea of divinational 180 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: aspects uh a finger morphology. They're various sort of cultural 181 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: ideas that seemed to be floating around. Um explaining you 182 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: know why one would have a longer nail. If there's 183 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: a class association that nails are, you know, for higher 184 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: social status. I wonder if it has anything to do 185 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: with demonstrating the lack of need to engage in physical 186 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: or manual labor. Yes, sort of along the same lines 187 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: as you know. There are some cultures. I think it 188 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: was once common in uh in European culture, for and 189 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: it was fashionable from me to where like long pointy shoes. 190 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: And one explanation given for this is, well, a long 191 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: pointy shoe makes you look rich because it's a kind 192 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: of shoe that you can't do any physical work in. Yeah. Yeah, 193 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: The best explanations seemed to tie it to this like 194 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: a long standing idea that it informs social status. However, 195 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: I should note that I've I've looked into this a 196 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: couple of times over the years, and I've never found 197 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: like a I have not found not to say it 198 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: doesn't exist, but I have never found like a really 199 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: good paper on this that really dives in with a 200 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: lot of the information out there about this is more 201 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: informal in nature. But um traditional Chinese cultural hierarchies do 202 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: seem to retain their power though according to one paper 203 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: I was looking at Saving Face in China, Modernization, parental 204 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: pressure and plastic Surgery by Andrew Lyndridge and Choufeng Wang, 205 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: published in the Journal of Consumer Affairs in two thousand 206 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: and eight. UM, so you know, basically underlying the idea 207 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: that you can you can have these ideas that are 208 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: still floating around in society, and perhaps you know, perhaps 209 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: the rationale for them isn't you know one uh in 210 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: an individual's forethought. But it's just something that survives and 211 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: is still done and perhaps on some level still does 212 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: inform UH that notion that I have this longer nail, 213 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: which means I am of a higher social status and 214 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: maybe don't have to engage in as much physical labor. 215 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: For in his storical example of this getting outside of 216 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: modern culture. UM, there's a book that I've I've been 217 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: fond of for for for many years titled Tales from 218 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,479 Speaker 1: a Chinese Studio, and it's a collection from seventeen forty 219 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: of these various weird tales that were compiled by the 220 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: author Uh Pooh song Ling and Uh and it's these 221 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,719 Speaker 1: are wonderful stories. I recommend anyone who's even halfway interested 222 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: in in strange Chinese ghost stories. You should pick up 223 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: a copy of this because some of them are funny, 224 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: some of them are just really weird. Um. There's also 225 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: a certain poetry to them, and I understand that if 226 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: if one is actually reading these stories uh in Mandarin uh, 227 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: they're also there are also a lot of various illusions 228 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: that are going to be lost on the English language 229 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: translation reader. But they're still they're still tremendous as translated pieces. 230 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: I think you've quoted from it before. I have positive 231 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: associations with this title. Yeah, it's a it's a great book, 232 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: and I think Penguin has an edition of it. Um. 233 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: So I was looking back through that because I'm thinking, Okay, 234 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: if there's a good example of a monster with long fingernails, 235 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: perhaps i'll find it entails from a Chinese studio. I 236 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: did not find it, but I did find this little 237 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: note um about a particular line in one of his 238 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: writings that I had skipped over before I didn't remember 239 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: from before. Basically, uh uh poohsong Ling mentions the bard 240 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: of the long nails, which the translators and editors of 241 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: this Penguin edition identify as Lee He who lived seven 242 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: sixty through eight sixteen. So he was a late Tongue scholar, 243 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: often characterized as a sort of quote doomed poet with 244 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: a vision so intense the world will destroy him if 245 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: he does not destroy himself. Whoa, and and so the 246 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: the editors here they could they compared him to John Keats. 247 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: That's interesting because Keiths definitely he died young. But I 248 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: don't really think of him as doom driven in that way. Uh. 249 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: When I think of doom driven English poets, I guess 250 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: I would think more like Byron or Percy Shelley. Yeah, 251 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: Lord Byron definitely comes to mind, right, especially with when 252 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: it comes to like a dark bad boy status walking 253 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: around a skull goblet and a pet bear on a 254 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: chain exactly. Uh. And and interestingly enough, uh, if you 255 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: look up some of uh Lee He's translated work, he's 256 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: sometimes described as this is from the Amazon description to 257 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: a nice collection of his work. Uh, the bad boy 258 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: poet of the late Tang dynasty. Well that I got 259 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: to hear more from this bad so it was it 260 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: was he a bet. Was the fact that he was 261 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: a bad boy at all related to the perception of 262 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: him having long nails? Um? Well, yes, and no, I 263 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: think when I think this will maybe become a little 264 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: more clear, Like, for instance, I don't think the fact 265 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: that that he had long nails was like the signifying 266 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: bad boy aspect about him. I take that to be 267 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: probably we're in common with with professional scholars of the day, 268 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: Like you know, you're you're you're a you're a scholar, 269 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: you're a man of of words. Uh, you certainly don't 270 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: need short nails in order to engage in a bunch 271 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: of physical labor, like you're a man of letters. I 272 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: see that being said, he has a very gothic quality 273 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: to him. The New Tang History of ten sixty described 274 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: him as quote frail and thin, with eyebrows that met 275 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: together and long fingernails. He was also known as the 276 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: Demon Talent due to his love of weird and exotic 277 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: subjects in his writings, and the New Tang History also 278 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: said that he quote felt himself already halfway across the 279 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: boundary between the living and the dead. Now that being said, 280 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: apparently he also wrote about mundane topics as well, like 281 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, earth like food and so forth. So it 282 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: wasn't just all ghoulish content. Um, maybe a spooky food. 283 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: Oh No, I think he generally, you know, wrote about 284 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: food and acceptable non what we would think of in 285 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: Western terms is of you know, a non Gothic sense. 286 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: But anyway, if you if you look at his work, 287 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: it is really quite beautiful. Um. He is probably apparently 288 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: most famous for this poem song of Magic Strings that 289 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: the editors and translators of the pous song Ling text include. Uh. 290 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: The poem itself was translated by john Fordsham in ninety 291 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: three's Goddesses, Ghosts and Demons that Collected Poems of lee 292 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: he He He, which you can you can buy in like 293 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: e book or physical form. I'm thinking of picking up 294 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: a copy. But but here's here's just a little bit 295 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: from that poem. Quote. Blue raccoons are weeping blood as 296 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: shivering foxes die on the ancient wall. A painted dragon 297 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: tail inlaid with gold. The rain god is writing it 298 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: away to an autumn tarn. Owls that have lived a 299 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: hundred years turned forest demons laugh wildly as an emerald 300 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: fire leaps from their net. Wow. That that is electrifying. Man, 301 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: I've got goose bumps. Yeah. Like I say, I think 302 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pick up a copy for this Halloween season. Um, 303 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: but there was there was another line when I was 304 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: looking at the preview of that actual text, Fordsham wrote, quotely, 305 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: he was temperamentally unable to write a conventional social poem, 306 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: and consequently he is very rarely dull. Uh So, apparently 307 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: to to be like a professional man of words, to 308 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: be like, you know, a writer of the day, you 309 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: had to engage in a lot of sort of boring, 310 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: sort of courtly writing. Uh. The example that he gave 311 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: was it was apparently common to sort of to to 312 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: write to patrons and compliment them on, say, the birth 313 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: of a child. And there's an example of this short 314 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: poetic poetic piece that he wrote to such a patron, 315 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: and he makes it sound like Fortshune compares it to 316 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: uh the child from the omen um about just how 317 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: he describes this child as like being able to like 318 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: see through people to their to their soul, or something 319 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: to that effect. It's pretty interesting. So I like the 320 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: idea of this, uh, this Bard of the Long Nails, 321 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: who when he tries to fit in and be like 322 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: just a boring poet, he can't quite do it. He's 323 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: just a little too weird. But I should drive home 324 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: that I don't think the Long nails were the were 325 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: the weird thing about him. No, it was that he 326 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: would write you a note saying, congratulations on the birth 327 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: of your child who will one day flay my soul 328 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: in the underworld. Yeah, that sort of thing. Um. So, anyway, 329 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to check out both of those authors. 330 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: But but anyway, back back to nails in general. Long 331 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: nails have have apparently sometimes been seen as a luxury 332 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: for those of upper classes in various cultures who don't 333 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: have to truly labor with their hands. And I've had 334 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: a couple of studies at least that backed this up, 335 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: such as excessively long fingernails as a risk factor for 336 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: upper extremity soft tissue injury published in two thousand eight 337 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, and another 338 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: pay or Effects of fingernail linked on finger and hand performance, 339 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: published in the Journal hand Therapy back in two thousand 340 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: and This the second paper here recommends keeping fingernails shortened 341 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: to at least point five centimeters to quote achieve optimal 342 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: functional outcomes. Well, I guess, to be fair, I laughed 343 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: because I was imagining optimal functional outcomes of hands just 344 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: in regular life. But I guess this is talking about therapy, 345 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: so that phrasing makes sense. Yes, yes, this this paper 346 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: does seem to be narrowing its focus somewhat. Uh. And 347 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: I think it's also worth noting that, you know, I 348 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: have for my own part, I've encountered people with with 349 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: very long, you know, well maintained nails, uh, you know, 350 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: sometimes very fancy looking nails. This seemed quite capable of 351 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: manipulating their environment and say, an office setting. Uh. Though 352 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: perhaps that's not that different from the sort of physical 353 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: demands of of of of a scholar in um, you know, 354 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: in in in in China, of old Uh. You know, 355 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: you're you're still not having to like actually physically in 356 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: the earth or something to that effect. So so I'm 357 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: not sure i'd be interesting to hear from anyone out 358 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: there who does, who has had long nails in the 359 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: past or keeps them maintains long nails today, Like are 360 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: there things that you find that they get in the 361 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: way of or are they just generally not in the way? 362 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: Do you sort of adapt I mean, obviously, you know, 363 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: we we we can adapt our body schema to a 364 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: accommodate for any number of of extra things. It seems 365 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: like just longer nails. I mean, that's even more a 366 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: part of our body than any tool or costume that 367 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: we might acquire. All Right, it's time to take a 368 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: quick break. But when we come back, we can talk 369 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: about a demon warship made out of nails than all right, 370 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: we're back, and I'm excited for this, Joe, because you 371 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: were you were about to embark on a journey and 372 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: you're you're going to uh tell us about what maybe 373 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: the the magical fingernail story par excellence. I mean, there 374 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: are a lot of great magical figure nail stories that 375 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: that I'm to get into, but this might be the 376 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: most most thoroughly mythological one, the one that's like the 377 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: most the most like a device in a story where 378 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: the nails are sort of the mcguffin. Though there's also 379 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: a very good Persian one that we'll get into. But anyway, 380 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: so I want to go to the prose Edda. This 381 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: is a work that tells us a lot of what 382 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: we know about ancient Norse mythology that was written or 383 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: edited by the medieval Icelandic author Snorri Sturlason. In the 384 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: prose Edda, there are these collected literary works that tell 385 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: many of the stories of Norse mythology, including the story 386 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: of Ragnarok, the final confrontation, the destruction of the gods 387 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: at the end of that era and there but early on, 388 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: there's a passage in the prose edit that's just talking 389 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: about ships, just mentioning what kinds of mythological ships there are, 390 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: And it mentions one ship in passing, calling it the 391 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: Nagle Far. And it only says a couple of things 392 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: about the Nagle Far. It says that it is in 393 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: mu spell. Mu Spell is a realm of fire, home 394 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: of the fire giants who you don't want to mess with. 395 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: And the passage also mentions that Nagle Far is the largest, 396 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: meaning the largest of all ships. So what is this 397 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: Nagle Far the largest of all ships? Well, later the 398 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: author here tells us that the Nagle Far will appear 399 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: over the horizon during the calamity of Ragnarok, when the 400 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: gods will be destroyed. And the author also tells us 401 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: something about its construction. And here I'm going to quote 402 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: directly from the work quote the stars shall be hurled 403 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: from heaven. Then it shall come to pass that the 404 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: earth and the mountains will shake so violently that trees 405 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: will be torn up by the roots, and the mountains 406 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: will topple down, and all bonds and fetters will be 407 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: broken and snapped. The fin ris wolf gets loose, the 408 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: sea rushes over the earth for the mid guard serpent 409 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: writhes in giant rage and seeks to gain the land. 410 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: The ship that is called nagle Are also becomes loose. 411 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: It is made of the nails of dead men. Wherefore 412 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: it is worth warning that when a man dies with 413 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: unpaired nails, he supplies a large amount of materials for 414 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: the building of this ship, which both gods and men 415 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: wish maybe finished as late as possible. But in this 416 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: flood Naggle far gets afloat. The giant crime is its steersman, 417 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: or there might be him h r y M. But okay, yeah, 418 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: so it's got it's got giants on it. It's got 419 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: the giant crime or h rim as it's steersman, and 420 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: it's made out of the fingernails and toenails of dead 421 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: men who did not care appropriately for their nails at 422 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: the time of death. That is that is gnarly um. 423 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: I by the way, I I'm not surprised at all 424 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: to learn as well that there is a a longstanding 425 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: Swedish black metal band that has naggle far as It's 426 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: as its name. They've been active since then the early 427 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: nineties apparently. Oh wow, I've never heard of him, but 428 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: of course yeah, I mean, in anything, this gnarly is 429 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: going to end up as a metal band name. But 430 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: I should also mention that in telling the same story 431 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: the story of Ragnarok, you know, sort of the destruction 432 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: of the gods at the end of at the end 433 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: of time, or maybe not of time, at least at 434 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: the end of the era the age of the gods 435 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: um it is. The same scene is described in the Voluspa, 436 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: which is an old Norse poem describing a lot of 437 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: mythological events that we've mentioned on the show pretty recently. Actually, 438 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: I think, wait, which episode did it come up in? 439 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: I cannot recall the context at the moment, but there's 440 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: also a quatrain in the Voluspa that mentions it. It says, 441 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: from the east comes crime with shield held high in 442 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: giant wrath, does the serpent writhe or the waves he twists, 443 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: and the tawny eagle naws corpses screaming. Naggle Far is loose. 444 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: I love, I love the idea that it's you know, 445 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: this is just me reading into it, perhaps, but it 446 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: it feels like it's not. It's not just the bones 447 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: that are making it's not bones that are making up 448 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: the ship. It is the toenails and the fingernails that 449 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: seem more like the detritus of of the the dead body. 450 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: You know. It seems like this is like a ship 451 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: that has been collecting and assembling, like at the bottom 452 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: of the universe, throughout all of human conflict, you know, 453 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: And so that that's why it is only it is 454 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: only completely finished towards the very end of human existence. 455 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: So there's a paper I want to talk about, Robert, 456 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: if you're ready, called the Treatment of Hair and Fingernails 457 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: among the Indo Europeans. Oh, yes, I am ready for 458 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: this because I've I've read about certainly nothing on the 459 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: ship level, the ship building level, but I've I've read 460 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: about some of these of these folk beliefs before. Yeah. 461 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: So this is a paper by Bruce Lincoln, who is 462 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: a scholar of religious studies at the University of Chicago. 463 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: It was published in nineteen seventy seven, and that's worth noting. 464 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: This is an older paper. I'm citing it because it's 465 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: still really interesting, but I just want to flag that 466 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: it's older, because it's possible that in the intervening years 467 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: some of Lincoln's factual assumptions might have been superseded by 468 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 1: more recent anthropological or historical research. But I think the 469 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: general thrust of the question he poses remains and uh, 470 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: and some of the hypotheses he discusses in this article 471 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: remain extremely interesting. Okay, so he starts like this quote. 472 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: One of the important lessons that has learned from the 473 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: study of history of religions is that there is no 474 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: act so small or insignificant that it cannot take on 475 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: symbolic importance. In certain cultures, it is not always an 476 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: easy task to recognize such symbolically invested action, although the 477 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: existence of elaborate rules for behavior in a given situation 478 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 1: may serve as a valuable clue. And if the identification 479 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: of such action is sometimes difficult, the interpretation of a 480 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: given motion, gesture, or ritual is even more delicate. And 481 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: the example that he gives that he's going to talk 482 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: about in this paper is the extremely careful, meticulous rules 483 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: governing the treatment of clippings from the hair and nails 484 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: in many cultures and religions throughout the world, especially in 485 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: many cultures that are descended from in some way the 486 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: ancient speakers of Proto Indo European, which I'll get into 487 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: more later. So I'm going to start by just listing 488 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: a number of examples that Lincoln brings up, and then 489 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: we can go back and talk about possible explanations for 490 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: where these beliefs and religious practices come from. So the 491 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: first one mentioned by Lincoln concerns the hair specifically, and 492 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: is it's the right of the child's first haircut or 493 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: first tonture, practiced historically by some people of India, and 494 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: it's described in the Sankayana Gria Sutra, and the Gria 495 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: Sutras are a number of manuals describing the steps of 496 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: various domestic religious ceremonies. So I think specifically the kind 497 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: of religious ceremonies that you you might perform around the house. 498 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: So this is performed for different children at front ages, 499 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: I think also traditionally depending on cast. But the process 500 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: goes like this in Lincoln's summary quote, the child's hair 501 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: is untangled and anointed and a young cusa shoot is 502 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: placed in it, Kusa being the sacred grass of ceremonial. 503 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: His hair is then shaved with a copper razor and 504 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: placed on a mound of bull dung mixed with kusa 505 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: grass that has been prepared to receive the hair. Finally, 506 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: and here he quotes directly from translation of the Sankayana 507 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: Gria Sutra quote to the northeast, in a place covered 508 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: with herbs, or in the neighborhood of water, they bury 509 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: the hairs in the earth. So that's interesting to begin with. 510 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: You you have this ritual of at a certain age, 511 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: the child's hair is shaved or cut, and then it 512 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: is in a kind of symbolic ritual way planted within 513 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: dung or within the earth. And there's this association with 514 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: vegetation or herbs. Interesting. Now, this may have absolutely no 515 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: connection with it. But uh, a while back, I guess, 516 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: oh man, probably more than probably about a year ago. Uh, 517 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: my son and I had our hair cut at our 518 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: house on our our front porch. And afterwards, um uh, 519 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: the individual cut our hair encouraged us to take the 520 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: clippings and put at least some of them in our 521 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: garden um in order to help deter creatures from eating 522 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: our vegetables. I wonder if that actually works. I don't know, 523 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: but I've I mean, I've heard also similar advice concerning 524 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: a little like hair from your pet, like to to 525 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: keep the road inside of your garden, to put some 526 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: hair from your cat for for for instance, in there, 527 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: which which I mean it sounds like it could work. 528 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: I don't know that I've I've seen any thing to 529 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: actually back that up, except I haven't noticed any any 530 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: mice or rats out there. But then again, um, just 531 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: because you don't notice them doesn't mean they're not there. 532 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: That's interesting. We'll definitely keep that in mind as we 533 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: go through a few more of these examples. So the 534 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: next one that Lincoln sites comes from ancient Roman religion. Uh. 535 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: And this is the example of the flamand Alice, or 536 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: the high priest of Jupiter, the chief god of the 537 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: Roman pantheon, and the flamand Alice had numerous ceremonial requirements 538 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: and restrictions guiding his daily activities. There were rules about 539 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: where he had to sleep, there were rules about what 540 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: he was supposed to wear, about what kinds of things 541 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: he could touch or couldn't touch. And one of these restrictions, 542 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: as reported by the second century Roman author Aulus Gellius, 543 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: in a text called Attic Nights, goes like this, and 544 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: this is with some abridgments. Quote the ceremonies placed upon 545 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: the flamand allies are many, and the forbearances are numerous. 546 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,479 Speaker 1: No one should cut the hair of the de Aalie 547 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: except a free man. The cuttings of the nails and 548 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: hair of the deals are buried in the earth under 549 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: a fruitful tree. There were almost the same ceremonies for 550 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: the Flamenica de Alice, and I think that's the wife 551 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: of the high priest of Jupiter. And they say that 552 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: other different ones are to be observed, for instance, that 553 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: she is covered with a dyed gown, and that in 554 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: her veil she has the shoot of a fruitful tree. 555 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: And there are other similar practices elsewhere in ancient Roman religion. 556 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: For example, in the Natural History, Plenty of the Elder 557 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: recounts how the vestal virgins are expected to observe special 558 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: ceremonies in the disposal of the trimmings from their hair. 559 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: Plenty rights quote, truly, there is a lotus tree in Rome, 560 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: in the area of Lucina. Now this tree is about 561 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: five hundred years old or older. Its age is uncertain, 562 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: and it is called the hairy one because the hair 563 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: of the vestal virgins is brought to it. So note 564 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: again the kind of rough similarities with the Indian practice here, 565 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: the association with vegetation, especially well, hair is a is 566 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: a thing that grows out of us, not unlike a plant, 567 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: right or some sort of vine. And then I guess 568 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: a lot of this tube just has to do with 569 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: the fact that hair and fingernails and toenails as well 570 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: are the things that are paradoxically a part of us 571 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: and yet not a part of us. And then when 572 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: we trim them away or cut them away, they are 573 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: no longer part of our bodies that they came from 574 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: our bodies. And therefore you could you could see where 575 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: you could easily lean into this idea that's something appropriate 576 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: must be done with these parts of ourselves. Yeah, and 577 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: we'll get into more about that in the in the 578 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: part where we talk about the possible explanations for these 579 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: but I want to talk about the next example Lincoln sites, 580 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 1: which is German folkloric practices. He writes that there are 581 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: a number of archaic rituals among German people speaking Germanic 582 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: languages for dealing with the disposal of clippings from the 583 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: hair and nails quote. Thus, in Oldenburg hair and nails 584 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: are wrapped in a cloth and fastened under a tree 585 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: three days before the new moon to cure infertility. Similarly, 586 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,479 Speaker 1: in Brandenburg, Dooseldorf, Swabia and elsewhere, hair and nails are 587 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: placed in a hole board in a tree or our 588 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: place to on a branch. This is often done when 589 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: one suffers from some sort of pain, and the pain 590 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: is said to go with these moving to anyone who 591 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: comes close to them. Now, there are some differences here 592 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: from the other examples we already talked about, because, you know, 593 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: Lincoln points out it's important to note that these practices 594 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: he just mentioned are targeted towards specific magical outcomes like 595 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: the curing of infertility or the healing of pain, rather 596 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: than a sort of free floating ritual without a specific 597 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: outcome object. But he notes again the similarity in the 598 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: association between hair and nails with plant life. Again, hair 599 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: and nails, and then trees and grass and branches. And 600 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: then finally one more example, and this one is probably 601 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: my favorite one, He draws attention to what is described 602 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: in an ancient text in the Avestan language, which is 603 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: associated with the ancient Iranian culture and is a foundational 604 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: religious text of Zoroastrianism. So this text is known as 605 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: the Vindidad or the vidv Dot. And in this writing 606 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: the character of Zoroaster also known as Zarathustra, and I 607 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: think Zarathustra is probably the earlier pronunciation. Zarathustra is speaking 608 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: to the wise Lord Ahura Mazda. And Zarathustra asks the 609 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: wise Lord why it is that the demon named Ayosha, 610 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: whose name literally means burning or destruction, Why Aosha harms 611 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: and punishes humans? And Ahura Mazda explains as follows, quote truly, 612 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: that righteous Zarathustra, when one arranges and cuts his hair 613 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: and clips his nails and then lets them fall into 614 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: holes in the earth or into furrows, for by these improprieties, 615 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: demons come forth, and from these improprieties monsters come forth 616 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: from the earth, which mortals call lice, and which devour 617 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,479 Speaker 1: the grain in the fields and the clothes and the closets. Now, 618 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: when you must arrange and cut your hair and clip 619 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: your nails in the world Zarathustra. Hereafter you should bear 620 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: it ten steps from righteous men, twenty steps from fire, 621 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: thirty steps from water, and fifty steps from the barisman, 622 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: which is a bundle of sacred twigs. When it is 623 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: laid out. Then you should dig a pit here, a 624 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: disty deep in hard soil, and a vitasti deep in 625 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: soft soil. To that pit. You should bear the cuttings. 626 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: Then you should pronounce these words victorious Zarathustra. Now for me, 627 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: may Mazda make the plants grow by means of asha, 628 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: and Asha means right. Uh. You should plow three or 629 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: six or nine furrows for Zassura vira, meaning good dominion, 630 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: and you should recite the Ajuna Vira prayer three or 631 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: six or nine times. So here you're in in this 632 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: ancient z or asterie and text. You're getting this elaborate 633 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: ritual described for what you should do with the trimmings 634 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: from your hair and nails, and that there are actual, 635 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: like real demonic consequences if you do not follow these rituals. Uh. 636 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: And Lincoln points out several things he finds really interesting 637 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: about the explanation from the Wise Lord to Zarathustra. So, 638 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: first of all, there's the need to carry these clippings 639 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: from hair and nails away from sources of purification. Remember 640 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: the mentions, if you've got to carry him this far 641 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: away from righteous men, this far away from fire, from water, 642 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: and from the sacred bundle of twigs, because these are 643 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: all potentially sources of religious purity, and it seems like 644 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: there's a desire to avoid cross contamination of all that 645 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: purifying matter with impure matter that you've just trimmed off 646 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: of your body. But then there's also Lincoln points out 647 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: the use of troughs to demarcate a sacred space, and 648 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: then also the spontaneous production of monsters from the air 649 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: and nail trimmings that are disposed of incorrectly. And if 650 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 1: that sounds familiar based on stuff we were just talking about, 651 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: isn't that kind of similar to the supposed origin of 652 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: the noggle far the nail ship. So in the Ragnarok myth, 653 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: again from Norse religion, this ship is built out of 654 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: the nails of dead men as a result of their 655 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: nails not being trimmed and disposed of properly according to 656 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: the correct rituals. So if you do the wrong thing 657 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: with your nails, you make an accidental donation to the 658 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 1: construction of the demons galleon. Oh wow, So this is 659 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: this is fascinating cause that on one hand, you can 660 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: compare a lot of this with just kind of a 661 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: basic understanding that this is bio waste, and there's there 662 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: there's an appropriate and an inappropriate way to dispose of 663 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: bio waste. But then of course we have this this 664 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: whole magical domain as well of monsters and monstrous ships 665 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: rising up from sort of the accretion of these materials. Yeah, 666 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting. Lincoln doesn't really get into this 667 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: at all, but it's interesting to wonder about what role 668 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: um I don't know, like practical biological facts could play 669 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: into the origins of these practices. I don't know if 670 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: there is, for example, any kind of real disease risk 671 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: that you would get from from encountering the trimmings of 672 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: hair and nails from other people. Perhaps there's some, but 673 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: it seems like there would be less of that than 674 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: there would be from say, contact with blood or feces, 675 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,919 Speaker 1: though I'm not sure. I mean, it's interesting that there's 676 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 1: a mention of lice and and one of the things 677 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: talking about being disposed of. Here is hair. Yeah, I mean, 678 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, we might think, well, the hair is the 679 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: place where the lice live. Therefore, you know, less inclined 680 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,720 Speaker 1: to pick up odd pieces of hair that we find 681 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: just out on the road. I mean, certainly, I think 682 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: we can all attest to, you know, being on a 683 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: walk or something, or and encountering a piece of someone's 684 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: hair or you know, hair clippings, or perhaps even a 685 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: fingernail or a toenail, and um, your first instinct is 686 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: not to pick that material up and look closer up 687 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: put it in your mouth. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't seem 688 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: like a natural thing to do. All right, On that note, 689 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be 690 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: right back. Alright, we're back. But we've been talking about 691 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: all these examples from all of you know, different parts 692 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: of the world of religious or magical significance that is 693 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,919 Speaker 1: granted to trimmings from the hair and nails. And this 694 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: list is far from exhaustive. There are tons of examples 695 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 1: in practices all all over the place. But I think 696 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: just the examples we've talked about do help paint a 697 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: picture of the wide range of myths, beliefs, and practices 698 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: about hair and nails and the many similarities between them. 699 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: But the question is why why do so many different 700 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: cultures place this important ritual or religious significance on the 701 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: correct procedures for trimming and disposing of hair and nails. Now, 702 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: Lincoln in his paper goes over several possible answers to 703 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: this question that had been advanced by the time he 704 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: was writing in the seventies. And I would say the 705 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: list of possible explanations is also not going to be exhaustive, 706 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: but just to discuss a few possibilities. One is a 707 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: very influential theory that's best known for its articulation by 708 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth and early twentieth century Scottish anthropologist J. G. 709 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: Fraser in the Golden Bow. The Golden Bow has come 710 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: up on the show before. Uh. Fraser, of course is 711 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: very uh, you know, enormously influential, but also heavily criticized. 712 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: We can talk about that in a minute, um. But 713 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: Fraser argues that many of these practices have their roots 714 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: in a widespread ancient belief in what he would have 715 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: called the contagious branch of sympathetic magic. So the basic 716 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: idea here is that if something was once touching your body, 717 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: or especially if it was part of your body, that matter, 718 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: that object maintains a magical connection to your body even 719 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: after being physically separated from it, and thus it could 720 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: be used by a witch or a sorcerer to work 721 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: curses on you or magically control you in some way. 722 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: So if Jimmy the sorcerer gets hold of your hair 723 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 1: or nail trimmings, you are in for a very bad time. 724 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: And so in order to protect yourself from this kind 725 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: of sympathetic magic, you either had to destroy your hair 726 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: and nail trimmings or hide them very well, or maybe 727 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: also perform some kind of purging ritual to rid this 728 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: matter of its contagious magical power. And I think it's 729 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: interesting we still see evidence of this kind of magical 730 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: thinking even today. I mean, there there is magical thinking 731 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: that persists into the modern modern era whereby you can 732 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: have some kind of power over a person by by 733 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: possessing a personal artifact of there's or an object that 734 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: touched their body. You know, think about like doing magic 735 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 1: on someone by by possessing their hair brush. Right, There's 736 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: also interesting stuff about just how we think about the 737 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: contamination of of objects. Uh, there's a there's a there's 738 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: this study back in the nineteen nineties by social psychologist 739 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: Paul Rosen and um. This was actually recently mentioned on 740 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: an episode of the excellent radio show Hidden Brain. Uh. 741 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: They pointed out that they asked in this particular study, 742 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: they asked people if they would consider wearing hitler sweater 743 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: and uh, and they almost always said no. Uh. And 744 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: they said no even if they've been assured that it 745 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: had been washed, then it had that it had been torn, 746 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: you know, that it had been punished for being Hitler's sweater, 747 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 1: or that it had been symbolically cleansed by being worn 748 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: by say, mother Teresa before being passed on. And it 749 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: was the you know, this, this idea that that this, 750 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: this object, this sweater is is contaminated in a way 751 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: that cannot be uh punished away, cannot be cleansed away. 752 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: It just remains the impure in a completely irrational manner. 753 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: That is really funny. I mean, I can just say 754 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: for myself, like I I rationally do not believe in 755 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: any kind of sympathetic, contagious magic. So I don't think 756 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: like Hitler's evil would be contained in the physical sweater 757 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: in any way but still I wouldn't want to put 758 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: it on. Well, I have a lot of nitpicky questions 759 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: about that that scenario, like is it a good sweater? 760 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,919 Speaker 1: Like is there anything notable notable about the sweater other 761 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: than it was Hitler's sweater? Because obviously I'm not going 762 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: to just wear a sweater because Hitler wore it? But 763 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: what ither I like? Was it a store and there 764 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: was like vintage stuff and there was like this really 765 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: nice sweater and I'm like, oh, this is nice. And 766 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: then I asked why is it so cheap? And they 767 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: tell me, oh, because this was Hitler's sweater. Then okay, 768 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: that might be different because I have some pre existing 769 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 1: interest in it. There's something about that sweater that's really neat. 770 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily get that from this this limited scenario. 771 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: Uh you know, it's it's kind of implied that the 772 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: notable thing about the sweater is that it was Hitler's. Well, 773 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: you know, I actually can think of a reason I 774 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to wear that sweater or own it, even 775 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 1: if even though I don't believe in any magical associations, 776 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,479 Speaker 1: which is that I mean, I guess if you were 777 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: to wear a sweater that you knew had been warned 778 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: by Hitler, you'd probably end up thinking about Hitler all 779 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: the time. And you know, it's like, every time you 780 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: put it on, you have to be like, oh, yeah, Hitler, 781 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: and you just don't want Hitler in your brain that much. Yeah. 782 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: I mean, to a certain extent, one encounters this with 783 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 1: the you know, the struggle to separate say an artist 784 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: from the art. Uh. That can sort of be the 785 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: Hitler's sweater scenario in some cases, where you're like, Okay, 786 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with the sweater, but I can't wear 787 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: it without thinking about Hitler. So I just don't think 788 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna wear this anymore. So it's worth noting that 789 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: Fraser's work on the origins of religions, again as I 790 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 1: said earlier, was both enormously influential and has come under 791 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: a lot of criticism. I you know, I'm not deep 792 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: on this, but I think one common criticism is that 793 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: Fraser would sometimes I think, kind of fudge or cherry 794 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: pick the ethnographic evidence he cited in order to make 795 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: things fit more cleanly into his broader theories. And you know, 796 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,320 Speaker 1: this is something I think that a lot of writers 797 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: who have grand theories about human culture and society end 798 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: up being guilty of uh So, while the Golden Bow 799 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: remains a fascinating read, I would advocate that you shouldn't 800 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: rely on Fraser alone is your soul source for anything. 801 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: And in Lincoln's analysis of Fraser's thoughts on on the 802 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: origins of these uh these rituals for dealing with hair 803 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: and nails in in sympathetic contagious magic, Lincoln thinks that, well, 804 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: probably a lot of practices do have some kind of 805 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: roots like that, but he's not convinced that contagious sympathetic 806 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: magic lies at the root of all of these practices, 807 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: and certainly not the practices in the cultures that that 808 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: have some origins in the speakers of Proto Indo European, 809 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: because he has a different theory about that that we 810 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 1: can get into in just a minute. Lincoln also mentions 811 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: the work of an anthropologist named Mary Douglas, who is 812 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: a very influential twentieth century anthropologist. She proposed that uh 813 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: that within human religious thinking quote that the body is 814 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: a powerful model or image which can which can represent 815 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,360 Speaker 1: any bounded system, and which most often represents society itself. 816 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: The limits of the body then represent the limits of society, 817 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: the points at which it encounters opposition and danger, and 818 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 1: must thus be treated with appropriate care. So she's arguing 819 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: basically that we symbolically make an an equivalence between our 820 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: bodies and the society at large, and that margins in 821 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: general are dangerous and ambiguous places, and thus the things 822 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,839 Speaker 1: that come off of our body represent ambiguity at the 823 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: margins in the larger context of symbolic thinking about the society. 824 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: So you have to carefully regulate this marginal body matter. 825 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: And uh Lincoln in this paper, he he similarly thinks 826 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,240 Speaker 1: this idea is interesting, that it might explain some things, 827 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: but he's got a different theory that is based in 828 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: the Proto Indo European creation myth. So, the Proto Indo 829 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: Europeans are a hypothesized prehistoric culture that we know about 830 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: primarily through reconstruction of their language, which is a direct 831 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: ancestor to a huge number of historical and existing languages 832 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: throughout Asia and Europe. Just for example, English has a 833 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,760 Speaker 1: number of roots in different languages, including but not limited 834 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: to Germanic languages and Romance languages, but both Germanic and 835 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,240 Speaker 1: Romance languages themselves have roots in Proto Indo European language, 836 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: so you know, there was a root language that influenced 837 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: these derivative languages that developed in you know, different ways, 838 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: and then those derivative languages came back and in a 839 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: way combined to influence other languages like English. The Proto 840 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: Indo European people left no written records, but linguists have 841 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: been able to reconstruct a lot of their language by 842 00:47:54,200 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: tracing back similar word roots in a widespread catalog of languages. Uh. Similarly, 843 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,439 Speaker 1: scholars have tried to reconstruct other things about them. We 844 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: don't know a lot of things for sure, but they 845 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 1: probably lived somewhere around southern Russia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan, sort 846 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: of between and to the north of the Black Sea 847 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: and the Caspian Sea, probably a few thousand years b c. 848 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: We don't have any direct records of their religious beliefs, 849 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,720 Speaker 1: their myths, and their practices, but scholars, including Bruce Lincoln, 850 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:31,399 Speaker 1: have used clues from other descendent religions to try as 851 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,399 Speaker 1: best as possible to reconstruct elements such as their creation myth, 852 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 1: and Lincoln explains his hypothetical reconstruction of this creation myth 853 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 1: as follows, quote, this myth, as I have established elsewhere, 854 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 1: told how the world and all the creatures in it 855 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: were established by the first act of sacrifice, in the 856 00:48:54,000 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 1: primordial offering, the first priest Manu meaning man, dismembered the 857 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: first king Yemo meaning twin, and from his body built 858 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,400 Speaker 1: up the material world. Now, certain steps in the process 859 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,359 Speaker 1: of creation were described in this myth, steps whereby the 860 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,319 Speaker 1: body of the primordial victim became the world. Thus his 861 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,439 Speaker 1: skull became the heavens, his eyes the sun and moon, 862 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: his blood the seas, and what is most important for 863 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: the issue at hand, his hair became the plants and trees, 864 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: and so Lincoln quotes. He goes on to quote a 865 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: bunch of related ancient religious texts that serve as evidence 866 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: for his reconstruction of the myth in this way. Um, 867 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,320 Speaker 1: And of course we don't know that this is actually 868 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: what their creation myth was like, but it seems like 869 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: a reasonable approximation of what their creation myth might have 870 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,360 Speaker 1: been like, given what we know from a lot of 871 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: other religions that seem related to it. And this is, 872 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: of course, I mean, you can immediately think of other 873 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,759 Speaker 1: samples of creation myths in which the parts of the 874 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: world are made out of the body of a slain 875 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: primordial foe. Think about the ways that in say the 876 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,960 Speaker 1: Enema a leash, that the body of tiamat the dragon, 877 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,359 Speaker 1: you know, the sea monster gets turned into the you know, 878 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: the mountains and the sky and the seas and all 879 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, this is something you 880 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,759 Speaker 1: do see in a number of different mythologies like that, 881 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,879 Speaker 1: if nothing else you could even summarize just to say 882 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: that the body, the primordial body of being such as 883 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: this are important in the way that they are then 884 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 1: taken apart and then redistributed in those parts become important 885 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: aspects of the world that follows right. And so Lincoln 886 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: says that, you know, if his reconstruction of the Proto 887 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: Indo European creation myth is is basically correct or is 888 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,719 Speaker 1: on the right track, that a lot of religious practices 889 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: of round disposal of hair and nails in cultures that 890 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 1: are in part descended from the Proto Indo Europeans could 891 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:04,040 Speaker 1: be rooted in a recapitulation of this creation myth. And 892 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 1: this draws on a strain of thinking that I think 893 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,520 Speaker 1: in some way is associated with the Eliade. For example, 894 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of religious rituals are in a way 895 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:17,439 Speaker 1: supposed to be a re enactment of a foundational myth. 896 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, the idea that that that that everything we 897 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,359 Speaker 1: do is only important in the archaic sense if we 898 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 1: are recreating something from our founding myths. Right, So that's 899 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: ultimately Lincoln's theory here what what he thinks best explains 900 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,000 Speaker 1: the widespread nature of these these practices about the disposal 901 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,760 Speaker 1: of hair and nails. That he thinks, when you dispose 902 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: of hair and nail clippings in the correct way, you 903 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: are furthering the life of the world's vegetation in keeping 904 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: with the creation story. The sacrifice here is your own body, 905 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,200 Speaker 1: and the sacrifice of hair. Originally, he thinks hair and 906 00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 1: the nails were sort of added onto the hair. Sacrifice 907 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,319 Speaker 1: feeds the trees and the grasses the same way that 908 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: this primordially slain foe originally created all that vegetation. And uh. 909 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: And then Lincoln says, the other half of the coin 910 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: is quote. When such care is not taken, when disposal 911 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,320 Speaker 1: is not a ritual and does not repeat the acts 912 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 1: of a mythic model, the reverse can be the effect. 913 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 1: For if proper disposal serves to create the cosmos, then 914 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,880 Speaker 1: improper disposal can de create it, or to put it negatively, 915 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: conserved to create chaos out of cosmos. And think of 916 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,920 Speaker 1: the examples again we discussed here the destruction of crops 917 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,920 Speaker 1: by vice demons from the Avestan text, you know, the 918 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,600 Speaker 1: ancient Zoroastrian text, or the creation of the noggle far 919 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: the ship that brings monsters to deliver the violent into 920 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 1: the world, and the destruction of the gods that's made 921 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: out of the nails of dead men improperly cared for. 922 00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,560 Speaker 1: So obviously, I mean, I would say in my final thoughts, obviously, 923 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,960 Speaker 1: Lincoln idea here about the origins of these practices could 924 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 1: be wrong, but at the very least it provides some 925 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 1: really interesting scaffolding for understanding ways in which complex symbolic 926 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: religious thinking might enter into what we would consider an 927 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: extremely mundane grooming practice. How uh, it's it's possible that 928 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: just clipping your nails and cutting your hair too many 929 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: people might have cosmic significance because of the myths that 930 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 1: informed their worldview. Yeah, this is this is all very fascinating. 931 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 1: You know. It gets to the sort of the ambiguity 932 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: of what our nails and our as well as our hair, Like, well, 933 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: what what they really are? And and then yeah, what 934 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,959 Speaker 1: are we supposed to do with them once we once 935 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 1: they leave our body? And then what sort of ideas 936 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,760 Speaker 1: do we end up building up about uh those things 937 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,959 Speaker 1: and our identity and our place in the cosmos? Yeah, 938 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: totally so maybe uh maybe if if you're somebody who 939 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,800 Speaker 1: has a say a partner or roommate or family member 940 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,839 Speaker 1: who gets mad when you just like clip your toe 941 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,759 Speaker 1: nails in a willy lily fashion, they shoot all over 942 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,920 Speaker 1: the room and you do not collect them in a 943 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,279 Speaker 1: clean and tidy way for proper disposal, think about this 944 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,319 Speaker 1: interpretation of the proto Indo European creation myth. What if 945 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: what if you are somehow creating chaos out of order 946 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,160 Speaker 1: by doing so, and you are summoning demons up from 947 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,000 Speaker 1: the earth. Yeah, yeah, indeed, I think they're there. There's 948 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,840 Speaker 1: probably like a wide variety of different takes on this 949 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: as well. Like I think I've run across the examples 950 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,440 Speaker 1: of a Chinese superstition um that at least exists in 951 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,239 Speaker 1: some places where you are not supposed to trim your 952 00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 1: toe nails at night while it's dark outside um or 953 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,560 Speaker 1: not to trim them outside at night for my own part, 954 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I prefer to to trim my my nails 955 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 1: outside if I can. I feel like they just simplifies 956 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: the whole scenario, you know, Um, you don't have to 957 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: worry about finding them if they go flying or anything 958 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,160 Speaker 1: like that. Now, one thing that comes to my mind is, 959 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the the parts of our 960 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,640 Speaker 1: bodies that we leave behind on regular basis, I mean, 961 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: humans have it fairly simple, you know. Well it's just 962 00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,200 Speaker 1: the most mostly just the nails and the hair, and 963 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,000 Speaker 1: but and yet we still managed to build up all 964 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,520 Speaker 1: these fabulous ideas to construct demonships of the mind. Um, 965 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,400 Speaker 1: Imagine what it would be like if we if we 966 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: like molted um and left behind an exoskeleton that resembled ourselves, 967 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,319 Speaker 1: you know, sort of like the cicada shell that is 968 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,960 Speaker 1: left behind. Or imagine that we make something along the 969 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: lines of squid that leave behind us a pseudomorph, you know, 970 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: a cloud of of ink that is in the shape 971 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 1: of their body to fool predators, that sort of thing. 972 00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,960 Speaker 1: Imagine what sort of like strange ideas about self and 973 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: former self. Uh, such beings, intelligent beings might have. Yeah. 974 00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,880 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the religion and the religious practices of 975 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,760 Speaker 1: intelligent arthropods that had to molten have a whole body 976 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: shell that was left behind? Oh? Man, that that would 977 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,399 Speaker 1: be good. That's that's that's something good for your sci 978 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: fi novel there, Yeah, I mean what shape would it take? 979 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: Would it be? Would there be like a would you 980 00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,680 Speaker 1: have like special burial grounds where all of your your 981 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 1: various um uh, you know exoskeletons go once you've morphed 982 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,880 Speaker 1: out of them. Um do do famous uh crab people 983 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,520 Speaker 1: did do their exoskeleton moldings wind up in a museum somewhere? 984 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. There's so many questions to ask. As always, Uh, 985 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,200 Speaker 1: if you've run across any examples in science fiction or 986 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: fantasy to deal with these sort of issues, we'd love 987 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: to hear from you. We we always love your to 988 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,520 Speaker 1: hear advice from listeners on old works of science fiction 989 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,759 Speaker 1: and fantasy or new works as well. Um. Likewise, we 990 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,359 Speaker 1: touched on a lot of different traditions and cultures in 991 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: this episode especially, so I would love to hear from 992 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: absolutely anybody who has insight on this. Uh, particularly with 993 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,359 Speaker 1: with with long nails for example. Uh, do you keep 994 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: your nails long? Have you ever kept your nails long? Um? 995 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,839 Speaker 1: You know, right in. I'd like to to know how 996 00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,000 Speaker 1: that has impacted your life or not impacted your life. Likewise, 997 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,400 Speaker 1: if there's a particular tradition in your culture or your 998 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,239 Speaker 1: culture of origin, I would like to hear about that 999 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,200 Speaker 1: as well. And certainly, as Joe mentioned, if there are 1000 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:19,320 Speaker 1: any particular practices that you engage in, either culturally or 1001 00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,520 Speaker 1: just sort of as a as a as a quirk 1002 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 1: of your own individual nature regarding your your your nail 1003 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: and hair trimmings. Uh, we would love to hear what 1004 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,840 Speaker 1: they are totally. In the meantime, if you would like 1005 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,520 Speaker 1: to listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 1006 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,240 Speaker 1: you can find us wherever you find your podcasts and 1007 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just asked that you rate, review, 1008 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: and subscribe. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio 1009 00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,920 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 1010 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,040 Speaker 1: in touch with us to answer any of the questions 1011 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 1: Robert just listed, or if you'd like to suggest a 1012 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,600 Speaker 1: topic for the future. You've got any other feedback on 1013 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,360 Speaker 1: this episode, you can email us at contact that's Stuff 1014 00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:06,200 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com Stuff to Blow Your 1015 00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,120 Speaker 1: Mind is production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 1016 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 1: to my heart Radio. This is the i heart Radio app, 1017 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:25,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen me to your favorite shows.