Speaker 1: Well. One way to simplify it is to say that
Speaker 1: white women wanted the same rights as white men. They
Speaker 1: wanted political access, education, employment. Black women had a much
Speaker 1: deeper and larger and broader agenda, So they were fighting
Speaker 1: for even more than just the rights that white women enjoyed.
Speaker 1: They wanted to protect their entire communities and in much
Speaker 1: more dangerous circumstances. That was historian Elizabeth Griffith talking about
Speaker 1: her new book Formidable, American Women and the Fight Free
Speaker 1: Quality from nineteen twenty to twenty twenty. It looks at
Speaker 1: American women struggle for their rights from a perspective we
Speaker 1: usually don't see. I'm a land Ververe and this is
Speaker 1: senecas one women to hear. We are bringing you one
Speaker 1: hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women
Speaker 1: you need to hear. Elizabeth Griffith is an expert on
Speaker 1: women's history. Her biography of suffragists Elizabeth Katie Stanton in
Speaker 1: her own right, was the basis of Ken Burns documentary
Speaker 1: on Stanton and Susan B. Anthony Not for Ourselves Alone.
Speaker 1: The New York Times called Formidable, engaging and relevant, noting
Speaker 1: that it delivers a multi racial inclusive timeline of the
Speaker 1: struggles and triumphs of both black and white women. Listen
Speaker 1: and learn why Elizabeth Griffith and the women who fought
Speaker 1: for equality are among Seneca's one Women to Hear. I'm
Speaker 1: speaking today with historian, author, and educator Elizabeth Griffith. Betsy, Welcome.
Speaker 1: We're so delighted to have you with us. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm delighted to be here now. You and I have
Speaker 1: had the pleasure of knowing each other for many years,
Speaker 1: and I must say I always greatly value your expertise
Speaker 1: on the struggle for women's equality in the United States,
Speaker 1: so I'm doubly delighted to have this conversation. I'm thinking
Speaker 1: we met when Um, the First Lady was preparing to
Speaker 1: go to Seneca Falls, uh in the middle of the
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties to celebrate the anniversary the hundred and fiftieth
Speaker 1: anniversary of the Seneca Fall Falls Women's Rights Convention. Exactly.
Speaker 1: Seneca Falls brings us together always. It's a wonderful, wonderful
Speaker 1: part of America's history that continues today. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about your new book, Formidable American Women in the Fight
Speaker 1: Free Quality nineteen twenty to twenty twenty. It covers a
Speaker 1: hundred years now. You know, there was a lot written
Speaker 1: about women's suffrage in on the hundredth anniversary of the
Speaker 1: nineteenth Amendment. What has been missing from all those previous
Speaker 1: suffrage histories that have vot evading you to write this book. Well,
Speaker 1: they were histories of the suffrage movement, how we got
Speaker 1: the vote, all vital parts of American history. But my
Speaker 1: question was what did we do after we got it?
Speaker 1: The question I wanted to answer was how did women
Speaker 1: use the vote if they were able to? What were
Speaker 1: their causes, what were their issues and what kept them
Speaker 1: from advancing? And what conclusions did you come to? Just
Speaker 1: very briefly before we go into lots of different questions,
Speaker 1: American women, change agents, reformers, these progressive, brave women were
Speaker 1: divided throughout our history by race and segregation. Women who
Speaker 1: ought to have been allies, educated, change agent, brave women
Speaker 1: could not work together because of the times and the
Speaker 1: issues dividing them. Specifically, White and black women had different
Speaker 1: agenda items, different priorities, different realities, and different strategies. And
Speaker 1: so can we talk about some of those divisions or
Speaker 1: differences in the struggles that Black women and white women
Speaker 1: undertook during this hundred year period. Well, one way to
Speaker 1: simplify it is to say that white women wanted the
Speaker 1: same rights as white men. They wanted political access, education, employment.
Speaker 1: Black women had a much deeper and larger and broader agenda.
Speaker 1: It was really community wide, beginning with um ending lynching
Speaker 1: and securing the safety of their communities. That was not
Speaker 1: only safety against violence, but it was safety against shabby
Speaker 1: educational systems. You know, no sewers, no playgrounds, all of
Speaker 1: the ways that Jim Crow post Civil War reconstruction had
Speaker 1: damaged African Americans. So they were fighting for even more
Speaker 1: than just the rights that white women enjoyed. They wanted
Speaker 1: to protect their entire communities and in much more dangerous circumstances.
Speaker 1: And their client was a much harder climb in many
Speaker 1: ways given what they were up against, and in some
Speaker 1: ways they were more successful than white women because white
Speaker 1: women go into the nineteen twenties thinking, you know, they
Speaker 1: won the vote, the world is open, everything will advance
Speaker 1: for them, and it and it does for maybe the
Speaker 1: first congressional term, and then white men um in charge
Speaker 1: of the Congress and the Senate figure out that white
Speaker 1: women are not turning out to vote in large numbers.
Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty two or twenty four, twenty six of
Speaker 1: the advances that were passed relating to maternal and infant health,
Speaker 1: related to education and prison reform were reversed, were defunded,
Speaker 1: were defeated, so that by nineteen thirty one journalist rights
Speaker 1: the nineteenth Amendment promised almost everything and accomplished almost nothing.
Speaker 1: And then the combination of the depression UM interesting issues
Speaker 1: about observations about women and sexuality sort of depressed women's
Speaker 1: organizational efforts in the thirties. There's a revival in the
Speaker 1: forties with the Rosie for that the Rosie the riveter,
Speaker 1: and the Second World War benefited all women, black, white,
Speaker 1: everybody else, UM. But then white women UM again sort
Speaker 1: of surrender to stereotypic expectations. But meanwhile, black women, much
Speaker 1: less publicly, not covered in the news, not in the headlines,
Speaker 1: working out of church basements, or as agricultural agents, or
Speaker 1: as public health nurses, or as teachers or just neighbors
Speaker 1: and communities are trying very hard to advance civil rights UM.
Speaker 1: One registration by another, one literate person after another UM,
Speaker 1: and they are at risk of great reprimand if their
Speaker 1: activities are discovered, but their support. They're joining the n
Speaker 1: Double A c P. They're joining the League of Women
Speaker 1: voters where they weren't in a segregated state, and they're
Speaker 1: pushing uh the advances that will culminate in the fifties. UM,
Speaker 1: lot of it driven by the Double A CP Legal
Speaker 1: Defense Fund, including obviously led by Third Good Marshal, but
Speaker 1: supported by Constance Baker Motley. You've got Pauli Murray working
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, and you have a lot of women
Speaker 1: who've been in church basements now coming forward. There the
Speaker 1: women who will lead the Montgomery bus boycott. They're the
Speaker 1: women who will um support the integration of Central High
Speaker 1: School in Little Rock. There's a lot going on. And
Speaker 1: then finally, sort of around nineteen sixty into the nineteen sixties,
Speaker 1: white women are paying attention to what's happening to black women,
Speaker 1: white reformers, and they begin to think we need to
Speaker 1: we need to be supporting them, and we need to
Speaker 1: be asking questions about our own status as well. So
Speaker 1: the sixties, as you and I will remember, maybe not you,
Speaker 1: I remember, um, uh, you know, you've got the civil
Speaker 1: rights movement boiling. You've got the women's rights movements simmering,
Speaker 1: you have the anti war movement exploding. Um, so you've
Speaker 1: got a lot going on that will have impact on
Speaker 1: the country history in the seventies and eighties. Such a
Speaker 1: wonderful abbreviated perspective on all of this. So we're do
Speaker 1: Hispanic and Latina women come into this tell us about
Speaker 1: their struggle? Well, it's it's There are lots of other
Speaker 1: women who are on whom I did not focus as
Speaker 1: fully as I did on white and black women, because
Speaker 1: that seems to me be the central struggle in American history.
Speaker 1: But in addition to Hispanic and Latino women, there are
Speaker 1: Native American women, and Jewish women and Asian women. But
Speaker 1: to answer your immediate question, Hispanic women obviously have been
Speaker 1: in this country since fifteen twenty three and have pursued
Speaker 1: different routes. A lot of them literate, but a lot
Speaker 1: of them kept in a more um, I almost want
Speaker 1: to say convent like tradition of upbringing. But by the
Speaker 1: by the twentieth century, women are pulling ahead. The first
Speaker 1: woman in elected office, the first Hispanic women in elected office,
Speaker 1: is Soladad Chevez de Chakonne, who became Secretary of State
Speaker 1: of New Mexico in nineteen twenty two, and in that
Speaker 1: role ended up substituting for the governor for almost a month.
Speaker 1: So she's she's not even technically the first woman, a
Speaker 1: Hispanic woman to be a governor, because there was a
Speaker 1: Hispanic woman in a similar role in Oregon in nineteen
Speaker 1: oh six who first served in the role of governor,
Speaker 1: and since then there's been two other Hispanic governors, one
Speaker 1: a Republican, one a Democrat. Now, of course Michelle Luhan Grisham,
Speaker 1: but and and all of these women were in New Mexico,
Speaker 1: which is such historically deeply rooted state and experience. But
Speaker 1: you've got Native American women pushing for citizenship and voting
Speaker 1: rights because they were not covered by the nineteenth Amendment UM,
Speaker 1: nor were people with Asian immigrant roots were not UM
Speaker 1: did not become technically citizens until nineteen forty three, and
Speaker 1: other Asian Americans not until the nineteen fifties. But it's
Speaker 1: Patsy Mink who will be the first person of colors
Speaker 1: to serve in the Congress as an Asian American Pacific islander.
Speaker 1: And I do want to note just the longstanding contributions
Speaker 1: of Jewish women, UM from the colonial period. They are
Speaker 1: always reformers, they are always progressives. They are always having
Speaker 1: to confront discrimination. Those women's organizations like the Women's Christian
Speaker 1: Temperance Union or the a u W. We're not only
Speaker 1: excluding blacks, they were excluding Jewish women, and one in particular,
Speaker 1: Hannah Stone will become the medical director for Margaret Sanger's
Speaker 1: birth control clinics, playing a huge role. UM. Jewish women
Speaker 1: were well represented in the medical profession in the first
Speaker 1: half of this century as they are now, but with
Speaker 1: such discrimination that they frequently did not get on hospital
Speaker 1: rights and admission into medical professional organizations. Senecas one hundred
Speaker 1: women to hear, will be back after the short break
Speaker 1: you mentioned the sixties. Tell us about your own involvement
Speaker 1: in the women's movement and how, if at all, that
Speaker 1: shaped your perspective on Formidable Well. I I graduated from
Speaker 1: a women's college, and my classmates and I agree that
Speaker 1: we were very lucky to come into adulthood on the
Speaker 1: cusp of this rebirth of the women's movement when so
Speaker 1: much was going on. So I came to Washington, first
Speaker 1: as a congressional intern and then UM as a graduate student.
Speaker 1: And was recruited by another well as the classmate to
Speaker 1: participate in the National Women's Political Caucus, and I've always enjoyed.
Speaker 1: I've always thought of myself as a more political person
Speaker 1: than a protest personal though I've certainly marched my fair share,
Speaker 1: but I think you have to be the kind of
Speaker 1: person who's actually counting the votes, which is why I
Speaker 1: admire carried Chapman cat more than Alice Paul during the
Speaker 1: suffrage fight. From the caucus, I went of the Women's
Speaker 1: Campaign Fund, which was a forerunner of Emily's List, back
Speaker 1: when you could fund both Democratic and Republican feminists. But
Speaker 1: those our country became so partisan, and the Republican Party
Speaker 1: deserted its feminist and civil rights and environmental and all those,
Speaker 1: um you know, all the reproductive rights that it used
Speaker 1: to support, and the parties divided so dramatically that then
Speaker 1: you needed groups that were going to support one side
Speaker 1: or the other. But I've done my share of training
Speaker 1: women candidates and working for female legislation. But then really
Speaker 1: I'm a historian at heart, so I've been teaching and
Speaker 1: writing women's history as another way for people to learn
Speaker 1: about social change. That it's been a great combination having
Speaker 1: had that personal history of deep engagement. Uh, and then
Speaker 1: your great expertise as an historian giving us a lens
Speaker 1: on all of this a lot if I could just interrupt,
Speaker 1: because I know that that that you're so engaged and
Speaker 1: focused on the whole Seneca Falls Convention as an organizing
Speaker 1: prince siple in ninetee when the National Women's Political Caucus
Speaker 1: organized there. There are variations of its creation myth, and
Speaker 1: one of them claims that it was founded on Mount
Speaker 1: Vernon Campus college here in Washington, in a chapel in
Speaker 1: the middle of July, and none of the people who
Speaker 1: were there would have made the connection to Seneca Falls
Speaker 1: in a chapel in the middle of July, because none
Speaker 1: of us knew the women's history which is helping to
Speaker 1: fuel us forward today. So fascinating and how important it
Speaker 1: is that we know that history. Thank you for mentioning
Speaker 1: that your book covers a wide variety of struggles by women,
Speaker 1: some of which you've touched on already, from voting rights, healthcare,
Speaker 1: equal pay, etcetera. Do you think among these various issues
Speaker 1: there is a most pressing issue for women today. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm with Ruth Bader Ginsburg about if women do not
Speaker 1: of reproductive rights, they don't have agency over their bodies
Speaker 1: and the ability to make decision about whether or when
Speaker 1: to have children and whether or when to end a pregnancy,
Speaker 1: they will never be equal. So I think, for all
Speaker 1: the advances we've made in the last century, since nineteen twenty,
Speaker 1: and some of those advances didn't take us as far
Speaker 1: as we assume were in a way back to ground zero.
Speaker 1: If we cannot regroup and secure these rights for every
Speaker 1: American woman in every state, then we are facing a
Speaker 1: dire future. Indeed, so you mentioned a number of these
Speaker 1: extraordinary women in our history as Americans, or some of
Speaker 1: the forgotten or overlooked figures that we might not know
Speaker 1: much about, but that you will have featured Informidable Uh,
Speaker 1: And obviously you think should be better known because you've
Speaker 1: included them in your new book. I already had a
Speaker 1: PhD when I started writing this book, and I feel
Speaker 1: the research I did should earn me another one, because
Speaker 1: like a lot of white Americans, I do not know
Speaker 1: enough African American history, and I'm a little bit reassured
Speaker 1: when I speak to groups of black women that they
Speaker 1: don't they don't necessarily recognize all these names immediately either um,
Speaker 1: So I think there are a lot of lessons for
Speaker 1: us to learn too. I might name there's a woman
Speaker 1: named Julia Cooper who was as active a feminist writer
Speaker 1: and philosopher at the end of the nineteenth century as
Speaker 1: was Elizabeth Katie stand Um. She wrote a book called
Speaker 1: Voice of the South in eighteen ninety two, and she's
Speaker 1: really laying out a case for black feminism. I'd never
Speaker 1: heard of that book before, and now I note more
Speaker 1: and more when I'm traveling that there are schools named
Speaker 1: for her, and I never would have thought to ask
Speaker 1: who she was. A story I particularly like is about
Speaker 1: a woman named Septum mcclark. She would have been an
Speaker 1: adult in the thirties, forties, fifties, and sixties. She was
Speaker 1: trained as a teacher and was working for the Charleston,
Speaker 1: South Carolina School System, which was a segregated system, so
Speaker 1: even with her advanced degrees, she was teaching in the shabbiest,
Speaker 1: least resourced schools um and being paid less. So she
Speaker 1: brings a suit in cooperation with the n double a
Speaker 1: CP to make sure that black and white teachers are
Speaker 1: paid the same, no matter where they are teaching, and
Speaker 1: she's fired um and then the state of South Carolina
Speaker 1: passes a law saying no teacher, no state employee can
Speaker 1: be a member of the Double A CP. So she
Speaker 1: leaves South Carolina and loses her pension, loses all of
Speaker 1: her sort of accrued reputation and assets. She moved to
Speaker 1: Tennessee and participates in the Highlanders School, which will play
Speaker 1: a huge role in the civil rights movement that had
Speaker 1: begun as a labor organizing center. But in the summer
Speaker 1: before the Montgomery bus boycott. Rosa Parks is a student
Speaker 1: of Septem mcclark at Vota Citizenship Freedom School. Eventually, the
Speaker 1: state of Tennessee will shut it down as a communist front,
Speaker 1: and she will join the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with
Speaker 1: Dr King and lead citizenship education programs Throughout the sixties.
Speaker 1: She is the woman who organizes Freedom Summer in Mississippi.
Speaker 1: She's credited with registering seven hundred thousand black voters between
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty and nineteen seventy. And here's the best part.
Speaker 1: She retires. She returns to Charleston. She runs for the
Speaker 1: school board and wins a seat and a Republican governor
Speaker 1: make sure that her pension is reinstituted. So some of
Speaker 1: these stories do not end in violence and disaster. Some
Speaker 1: end in good behavior. Well that's heartening, and how wonderful
Speaker 1: to hear about black women's leadership over this period, which
Speaker 1: continues to today. So it's great to hear there's so
Speaker 1: much about these women in your book. You know, I've
Speaker 1: known you as the headmistress of Madeira School, among other things, obviously,
Speaker 1: which is a wonderful school for girls in the Washington,
Speaker 1: D c. Area, And I wonder what you would want
Speaker 1: your former students and actually girls everywhere to take from
Speaker 1: your book. Well, I'm confident that Madure girls are getting
Speaker 1: a very deep education in American history and world history
Speaker 1: as well. But I but I believe all students need
Speaker 1: to be grounded in American history and civics lessons, and
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's happening equitably across the country.
Speaker 1: We cannot shy away from the reality of our history.
Speaker 1: We cannot worry about being made uncomfortable. That's how people learn,
Speaker 1: and we need to learn the lessons of our past.
Speaker 1: So I hope all young people have an opportunity to
Speaker 1: learn women's history, black history, immigrant history. All of this
Speaker 1: is part of our history. Is not just about old
Speaker 1: white men who may have been heroic but not always.
Speaker 1: And I particularly think it's important for young people to
Speaker 1: find in history role models. These could be again of whatever,
Speaker 1: finding their own identity. And these characters in the past,
Speaker 1: and there are many, we just need to bring them
Speaker 1: to light because I think in those historic actors young
Speaker 1: people find examples of courage and fortitude of integrity. I
Speaker 1: am just awed by these women. You may have read
Speaker 1: in the book that I took myself on a road
Speaker 1: trip across the South to visit various civil rights sites
Speaker 1: and memorials, and in every place people had died, people
Speaker 1: had been tortured, people had been murdered to get civil
Speaker 1: rights for themselves and to expand civil rights for all Americans.
Speaker 1: Those un named, many of them um forgotten. People need
Speaker 1: to be remembered every time. Every time anybody thinks they
Speaker 1: might not go out and vote because it's raining, they
Speaker 1: need to remember that women were forced fed for this right,
Speaker 1: that black people died for this right, that we have
Speaker 1: an obligation as citizens to really participate in this democracy.
Speaker 1: So that's what I want people to think about well,
Speaker 1: and that's such a good reminder of how important it
Speaker 1: isn't on whose shoulders we all stand in many many ways,
Speaker 1: you know, I think this is a perfect segue to
Speaker 1: our a last last question. Because you've seen so much,
Speaker 1: You've experienced much, you've studied history. You've just opened our
Speaker 1: eyes to so many other chapters in this new book
Speaker 1: that we may not have been familiar with. I wonder
Speaker 1: in all of that, what gives you optimism? What makes
Speaker 1: you hopeful? Because there's so much in our country, in
Speaker 1: our world today that makes people feel less hopeful. I
Speaker 1: have to say, Allen, after I just saw you recently
Speaker 1: in Little Rock, where Secretary Clinton convened a women's summit.
Speaker 1: I've been quite inspired because the program included so many
Speaker 1: young people, a bunch of impressive people our age and
Speaker 1: younger grown ups I would call them. But these young
Speaker 1: change agents, these young people who are so comfortable with
Speaker 1: inclusion and diversity, who don't see the differences that we
Speaker 1: might have grown up having had pointed out to us,
Speaker 1: who make very easy coalitions, and who already already proving
Speaker 1: how effective they can be about gun control legislation or
Speaker 1: about climate change. I of course, hope they turned their
Speaker 1: sites under reproductive rights. But I think it's caught everybody
Speaker 1: by surprise thinking that the Court would ever overthrow a
Speaker 1: fifty year precedent. But um, I'm really much more optimistic
Speaker 1: about the future than I might have been had I
Speaker 1: not taught young people and worked with them, and then
Speaker 1: been exposed to them so effectively at the Clinton Center summit. Well,
Speaker 1: that's a wonderful way to conclude that optimistic note. I
Speaker 1: can't thank you enough for being with us today for
Speaker 1: your inspiration for your new book, Formidable American Women and
Speaker 1: the Fight Free Quality nine. The journey continues, and I
Speaker 1: know it continues with you as well. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Griffith for being with us today. Thank you what
Speaker 1: a different and important focus on women's history. There are
Speaker 1: three things I took from that eye opening conversation. First,
Speaker 1: the passage of the nineteenth Amendment, which gave women the
Speaker 1: right to vote, was only the beginning, not the end,
Speaker 1: of women's fight free equality. In fact, its passage was
Speaker 1: followed by setbacks for women's issues like maternal health and education. Second,
Speaker 1: black women's struggle for equality was certainly much harder than
Speaker 1: that for white women. Yet they remained undeterred. As Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Griffith says, black women were organizing, working out of church basements,
Speaker 1: and we're a driving force in the civil rights movement. Finally,
Speaker 1: it's inspiring to learn about the forgotten women of American history.
Speaker 1: Think about women like Julia Cooper, a nineteenth century philosopher
Speaker 1: who wrote Voice of the South, a Call for Black Feminism,
Speaker 1: or Septi mcclark, a black teacher and education reformer who
Speaker 1: also registered seven hundred thousand black voters between nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: and nineteen seventy. To learn more, pick up a copy
Speaker 1: of Formidable American Women and the Fight Free Equality nine twenty,
Speaker 1: and tune in next time to hear about our next
Speaker 1: featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's one
Speaker 1: ed Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear
Speaker 1: is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG. Have
Speaker 1: a Great Day,