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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Oh Hello, Do you know who this is? Yes, Stevie, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you got me.

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Speaker 2: You have a pretty recognizable voice.

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Speaker 1: I have to say.

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Speaker 3: It has sort of like a pleasantly deep registered wow

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Speaker 3: in a nice way, but it makes your voice very distinct.

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Speaker 4: It's funny you should say this because, Yeah, one time,

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Speaker 4: when I was like in middle school, my friend called

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Speaker 4: my house and I picked up the phone and I

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Speaker 4: was like, hello, and she thought it was my dad.

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Speaker 4: She was like, hi, Rob, is Stevie home? And I

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Speaker 4: just pretended that, in fact, I was my father, and

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Speaker 4: I was just like, uh yeah, let me get her.

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Speaker 1: You didn't want to contradict your friend.

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Speaker 4: I think I was just so embarrassed that I could

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Speaker 4: possibly be mistaken for an old man.

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Speaker 5: Well maybe with respect to your dad, he maybe he

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Speaker 5: kind of sounds like little girl.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Stevie Lane, stads speaking.

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Speaker 4: I'm Stevie Lane, and this is Heavyweight Today's episode forty

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Speaker 4: four photos.

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Speaker 1: Right after the break.

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Speaker 4: There are places, according to Celtic folklore, where the boundary

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Speaker 4: between our physical world and the spiritual world is porous,

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Speaker 4: where Earth and the otherworldly are separated.

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Speaker 1: By no more than a few inches.

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Speaker 4: At these places, strange unexplainable things can happen. These places

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Speaker 4: are called thin places, and this is a story about

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Speaker 4: one of them. A few years ago, Jordan Kissner wrote

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Speaker 4: a book about thin places. She wanted to send it

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Speaker 4: to her friend Amy.

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Speaker 2: So it was April seventh, twenty twenty one, and I

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Speaker 2: went to the USPS that was a few blocks away

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Speaker 2: from my apartment at the time.

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Speaker 4: Jordan bought a brown padded envelope, put her book inside,

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Speaker 4: and handed it to the postal worker and that was that.

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Speaker 2: It was a really uneventful post office visit on a

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Speaker 2: pretty normal spring day in Vegas.

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Speaker 6: It was a sunny day in April, and I walked

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Speaker 6: to the mailbox. This is Jordan's friend Amy, which is

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Speaker 6: a really exciting part of my day. I really like mail.

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Speaker 6: And I opened the mailbox with the little key and

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Speaker 6: there's something like stuffed into my box.

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Speaker 4: Something Amy had been expecting the package Jordan sent her.

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Speaker 6: It says, you know, to Amy from Jordan and the

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Speaker 6: addresses Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: Amy brought the package back to her house and eagerly

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Speaker 4: tore it open. But inside Amy did not find Jordan's book.

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Speaker 4: She didn't find a book at all. Instead, she found

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Speaker 4: a stack of.

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Speaker 6: Photographs, and that's where the mystery begins.

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Speaker 4: Amy didn't recognize anyone in the photos. There was one

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Speaker 4: of a girl wearing a blue T shirt with clouds

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Speaker 4: printed on it, another of three teenagers in caps and gowns.

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Speaker 4: The people were of all different ages and races. Some

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Speaker 4: of the photos were in black and white, some in color.

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Speaker 4: One was a polaroid. Amy counted forty four photos in all,

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Speaker 4: forty four photos of complete and total strangers, And yet

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Speaker 4: the package was labeled to Amy, her name written in

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Speaker 4: ballpoint pen Jordan's return address was scrawled in the upper

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Speaker 4: left hand corner. Struggling to come up with an explanation,

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Speaker 4: Amy wondered.

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Speaker 6: Maybe Jordan sent these by accident.

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Speaker 4: So Amy texted Jordan, telling her she received her package,

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Speaker 4: but rather than a book, found forty four photographs inside.

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Speaker 2: And I was completely confused.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't.

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Speaker 2: I actually felt like I couldn't totally comprehend the message

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Speaker 2: she was sending me.

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Speaker 1: So Jordan texted Amy back.

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Speaker 6: Wait, Comma, what with two question marks?

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Speaker 5: Two?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Two?

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Speaker 6: And then photos question mark.

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Speaker 4: Amy sent Jordan a picture of the package and all

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Speaker 4: forty four photographs spread out on her kitchen counter.

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Speaker 6: And she said, what in all caps? I have no

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Speaker 6: idea what those photos are. I don't even I know

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Speaker 6: those people, but that's my handwriting on the package.

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Speaker 4: It was hard to know what to make of the

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Speaker 4: whole thing. It's like Amy expected a book about thin

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Speaker 4: places but got an actual thin place experience instead. Amy

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Speaker 4: can't bring herself to just throw the photos away, so

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Speaker 4: for an entire year now she's kept them by her desk,

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Speaker 4: and for an entire year she's been studying them. There's

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Speaker 4: the one of a new baby sucking on someone's finger.

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Speaker 4: There's a little girl in glasses and a cheerleader's outfit,

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Speaker 4: holding her leg up and smiling confidently into the camera.

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Speaker 4: The more Amy looks at the photos, the more she

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Speaker 4: thinks about the family that's missing them. These people in

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Speaker 4: the photos are nobody's to Amy, but they are somebody's

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Speaker 4: to somebody.

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Speaker 6: Is there a way to find any of these people?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 6: Who are they? Do they want their photographs back? Because

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Speaker 6: I would like the photographs to be returned to the family.

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Speaker 6: I feel like people should have their things.

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Speaker 4: A year ago, when Amy first received the package, she

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Speaker 4: and Jordan tried opening a case file on the mysterious

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Speaker 4: photos hoping the USPS could shed light on where they

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Speaker 4: came from, but nothing ever came of it.

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Speaker 2: The mail system, we feel like we understand it, but

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Speaker 2: then when you really think about it, it is this

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Speaker 2: complete mystery. It's like a void into which we send

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Speaker 2: stuff and from which that stuff emerges again. But then

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Speaker 2: when it doesn't emerge, you're like, wait a second, but

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Speaker 2: what is where is it going?

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Speaker 1: What is this system? What don't we know about it?

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Speaker 4: There's a lot that I don't know about it, but

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Speaker 4: Amy and Jordan want my help figuring out how Amy

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Speaker 4: ended up with the photographs and how to return to sender.

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Speaker 4: To get to the bottom of it, I'll have to

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Speaker 4: navigate a mysterious, little understood world that exists alongside our own,

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Speaker 4: a world separated only by an inches wide slot in

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Speaker 4: a metal box. And so I step over the boundary

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Speaker 4: into the world of the United States Postal Service.

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Speaker 1: I start with a.

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Speaker 4: Theory that Jordan, Amy and I discussed on the phone.

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Speaker 4: Jordan had sent Amy the book via media mail, a

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Speaker 4: discounted rate for sending things like books and CDs. From

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Speaker 4: what I read online, it sounds like the Post Office

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Speaker 4: searches media mail packages to prevent people from sending anything

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Speaker 4: they want on the cheap and in fact, Amy noticed

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Speaker 4: that the package had been taped up as though it

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Speaker 4: had been resealed en route. Maybe Jordan's package and the

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Speaker 4: package with the photos were both searched and then accidentally swapped.

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Speaker 4: To test this theory, I call the Postal Inspection Service.

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Speaker 4: It turns out out the post Office as a whole

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Speaker 4: department of inspectors.

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Speaker 1: Are you sort of like the James Bond of the

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Speaker 1: mail service?

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Speaker 5: Actually, it's funny you mentioned that my badge number was

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Speaker 5: double O seven.

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Speaker 4: No really, really, his name is me Halco, Dan Mihalko.

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Speaker 4: He's a US Postal inspector. And what does he inspect?

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Speaker 5: Postal crimes? Theft of mail, mail fraud, prohibited items in

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Speaker 5: the mail such as bombs, narcotics, anthrax, attacks, pornography.

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Speaker 1: I put my theory to Dan.

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Speaker 4: Might the Postal Inspection Service have opened and examined Jordan's package?

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Speaker 5: No, No, we don't do anything like that. The only

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Speaker 5: time would ever inspect mail is if we had a

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Speaker 5: search warrant so that we can't just open up mail. Huh,

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Speaker 5: nobody in a postal service has that.

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Speaker 4: Authority, Dan says, USPS investigators don't inspect packages without probable cause.

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Speaker 5: Here's what it sounds like may have happened.

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Speaker 4: So Dan guesses that somewhere along the way, Jordan's package

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Speaker 4: got damaged and the.

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Speaker 1: Book fell out.

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Speaker 4: Another package carrying the bundle of photos could have also

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Speaker 4: broken open. A postal worker might have seen the loose

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Speaker 4: bundle of photos, thought they belonged to Jordan's envelope, and

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Speaker 4: accidentally switched the packaging. And here's where that switch might

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Speaker 4: have occurred.

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Speaker 5: It used to be commonly referred to as a dead

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Speaker 5: letter office, but now it's I think it's Mail Recovery Center.

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Speaker 4: The Mail Recovery Center, or MRC, is located in Atlanta, Georgia.

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Speaker 4: It's where all undeliverable mail winds up. Some of the

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Speaker 4: stuff they receive is truly strange. An alligator skull still

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Speaker 4: covered in flesh cremation boxes Tom Nissalke's nineteen seventy one

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Speaker 4: NBA championship, which had been stolen from him twelve years before,

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Speaker 4: showing up at the MRC. I don't know who Tom

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Speaker 4: Desalk is, but listeners might. The MRC is also one

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Speaker 4: of the few places where postal workers are actually allowed

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Speaker 4: to open mail to help them look for clues as

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Speaker 4: to where the items or letters belong. Dan says that

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Speaker 4: it's the job in part of the MRC employees to

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Speaker 4: make their best guess about what belongs with what and

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Speaker 4: send it on its way.

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Speaker 5: They have to try to put pieces together. You know,

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Speaker 5: they're kind of sluice in their own way.

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Speaker 4: In their own way, don't condescend to the MRC agent Mihalko.

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Speaker 1: If Dan is right, the.

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Speaker 4: Original package, the photos came in with the original address

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Speaker 4: might still be sitting somewhere at the MRC. So I

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Speaker 4: phone up the person in charge.

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Speaker 5: To ask, this is a manager.

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Speaker 4: Lionel snow, Oh high, Lionel, my name is Stevie Lane

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Speaker 4: and I'm a radio journalist. Do you have a moment

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Speaker 4: so I can tell you why I'm calling?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 7: Not really, I mean I don't have a lot of

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Speaker 7: conversation time to falup with customers.

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Speaker 4: Nevertheless, I tell him about the mix up.

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Speaker 7: Anything could have happened, Anything could have happened.

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Speaker 8: I mean, I can tell you.

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Speaker 4: Lionel tells me that, contrary to Dan Mihalko's theory, Jordan's

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Speaker 4: package likely never made it to the MRC. If it had,

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Speaker 4: it would probably have a special stamp on it, which

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Speaker 4: Jordan's package doesn't. I ask if he has any other guesses,

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Speaker 4: but he just keeps sweeping out his favorite phrase.

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Speaker 6: Anything could have happened, Anything could have happened. I can

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Speaker 6: make an educated guess or or not.

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Speaker 1: When I press, the answer is or not.

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Speaker 7: Anything could have happened.

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Speaker 4: Jordan had likened the mail system to avoid into which

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Speaker 4: we send stuff and from which that stuff emerges. But

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Speaker 4: it appears it's also a void into which I send

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Speaker 4: my questions and from which nothing emerges. Over a number

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Speaker 4: of weeks, I reach out to more people at the USPS,

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Speaker 4: in the Communications Department, the Historian's office, even the Postal Museum.

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Speaker 3: It is a mystery.

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Speaker 5: I can't really guess.

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Speaker 9: You have one hundred and sixty million addresses in the US.

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Speaker 6: It could have come from any one of them.

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Speaker 1: Nobody is able to help.

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Speaker 4: I've hit a dead end with the post Office, so

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Speaker 4: I turn to the only other information that I have,

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Speaker 4: the photos themselves. Is there a way to identify the

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Speaker 4: people in these photographs? There's a photo of someone's pet cat,

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Speaker 4: but it doesn't have a collar.

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Speaker 1: With a tag.

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Speaker 4: There's a graduation, but it doesn't show the name of

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Speaker 4: the school. There's one photo of a man sitting in

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Speaker 4: a restaurant pulling up a signed headshot of what looks

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Speaker 4: like a younger version of himself. The headshot is signed

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Speaker 4: doctor Pedro something MD, but after hours of photoshop sharpening,

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Speaker 4: I still can't read what that something is. For every photo,

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Speaker 4: I'm just one small piece of information away from cracking

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Speaker 4: the case. Every photo except for one. The photo is

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Speaker 4: the oldest in the bunch, a creased and faded polaroid.

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Speaker 4: In it, a man crouches in the grass supporting a

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Speaker 4: baby in plaid overalls, barely old enough to walk. The

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Speaker 4: baby is looking down at a dog rolling over on

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Speaker 4: its back playfully while the man pets its stomach. No

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Speaker 4: one is aware of the camera. It seems to be

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Speaker 4: capturing a private moment. And when you flip the photo

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Speaker 4: over there's something written on the back Dalln Kelly and Queenye.

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Speaker 4: It says, in all caps at grandparents Coxes Kelly nine

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Speaker 4: and a half months Dallen Kelly and Queenee grandparents Coxes.

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Speaker 4: After googling around, I find a number for a Dallon

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Speaker 4: Cox in California.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hi, is this Jalon I'd called a few days

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Speaker 1: before and left a message.

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Speaker 9: I'm just really curious what this is all about. Honestly,

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Speaker 9: I have no idea how to be involved in anything

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Speaker 9: that you would be looking into.

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Speaker 4: So I explain about the package of photos Amy received,

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Speaker 4: about one in particular of a man with a child

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Speaker 4: and a dog with a inscription on the back, and

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Speaker 4: it says Dallan, Kelly and queenye At grandparents Coxes Kelly

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Speaker 4: nine and a half months.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, that's crazy.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's crazy.

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Speaker 5: That would be my dad.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, huh, yeah, it sounds like it might be of

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Speaker 9: my dad and my sister Kelly.

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Speaker 1: Dallan's dad is Dalan Senior.

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Speaker 4: Dallan suggests I give him a call to see if

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Speaker 4: the photo belongs to him.

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Speaker 5: Hello.

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Speaker 4: I tell Dalan Senior all about the photo of him

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Speaker 4: and his daughter Kelly. Then I texted over to him,

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Speaker 4: all right, here it comes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm a beet daughter. Wow.

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Speaker 8: That would have been from nineteen sixty seven, probably sixty eight.

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Speaker 7: She'd have been about nine months old, I would say

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Speaker 7: at that time obviously is standing up a little bit,

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Speaker 7: but she walked at early age like that, So yeah,

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Speaker 7: that's really something.

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Speaker 8: No, I don't have that picture in my collection. In fact,

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Speaker 8: I don't recall ever having seen it before. Kelly was

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Speaker 8: born in sixty seven, in June of sixty seven, and

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Speaker 8: she actually she passed away in March of last year.

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Speaker 4: Kelly died on March thirtieth, twenty twenty one. The package

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Speaker 4: with Kelly's photo was postmarked April seventh, twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 4: just one week after she died, so.

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Speaker 8: That just makes it really strange.

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Speaker 4: Kelly died unexpectedly of heart failure at the age of

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Speaker 4: fifty three.

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Speaker 1: It was a shock to her family.

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Speaker 5: Everybody loved her laugh.

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Speaker 9: When she laughed, it was just really unique, an enthusiastic laugh,

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Speaker 9: you know. I remember taking her with me to like

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Speaker 9: one weekend and she learned the water ski and she

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Speaker 9: was having a ball. My dad used to take Kelly

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Speaker 9: at that age, when she was about a year old,

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Speaker 9: down to the lake and they would feed the ducks.

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Speaker 9: He'd take breadcrumbs and they'd throw them to the ducks,

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Speaker 9: and she got so excited to do that.

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Speaker 3: That was her favorite thing to do.

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Speaker 4: Dyllan Senior doesn't recognize the handwriting on the back of

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Speaker 4: the photograph, but he wonders if it belongs to Kelly's mother,

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Speaker 4: his ex wife, Betty. Betty had been sick and unable

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Speaker 4: to make it to Kelly's funeral. Maybe she put it

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Speaker 4: in the mail, hoping it would arrive for the service.

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Speaker 4: When I phoned Betty, she doesn't remember the photo, but

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Speaker 4: she tells me that she did indeed mail a package

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Speaker 4: of photos to her granddaughter, Devin. Devin is Kelly's daughter.

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Speaker 3: This is Devin.

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Speaker 1: So I called.

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Speaker 4: Devan to see if I ended up with the photos

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Speaker 4: that her grandma tried to send her.

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Speaker 3: No, I did get a package of photos from my grandmother.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 4: Devin got the photos from Betty in a package that

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Speaker 4: was firmly sealed, and the photo of Kelly and Dallen

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Speaker 4: that one wasn't in there. Devin says she's never seen

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Speaker 4: it before. As for the rest of the photographs Amy received.

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Speaker 3: I don't recognize any of the people, none of them.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: Dallan Junior, Dalan Senior, and Betty all said the same

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Speaker 4: thing when I sent them the photos. Somehow, then it

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Speaker 4: seems this photograph, along its journey through the mail, wound

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Speaker 4: up with forty three other images of other random families.

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Speaker 4: Devin can't tell me anything about those other families, but

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Speaker 4: she does tell me about her own. Her mom, Kelly,

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Speaker 4: got pregnant with her when she was in college. Kelly

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Speaker 4: wasn't prepared to take care of a child, and soon

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Speaker 4: after Devan was born, Dallan Senior, Devin's grandfather, took Devon

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Speaker 4: in and raised her as his daughter.

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Speaker 3: I know that my mom had mental health issues, and

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Speaker 3: it took over my mom's life in many ways. There

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Speaker 3: were many instances in my mom's life where she didn't

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Speaker 3: have the power to take care of me. And there

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Speaker 3: were many years that passed by and I had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with my mom, Like I didn't know where

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Speaker 3: she was. I didn't hear from her. I was unsure

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Speaker 3: if she was even alive. So I've had a hard

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Speaker 3: time growing up believing that my mom loved me.

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Speaker 4: But Devin tells me in the last seven or eight

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Speaker 4: years before her mom's death, that changed. Devin was in

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Speaker 4: her mid twenties, and without explanation, seemingly overnight, Kelly started

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Speaker 4: reaching out more. She would come over to help Devin

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Speaker 4: with projects around the house, like painting cabinets. The two

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Speaker 4: of them spent hours sitting together on the couch, playing Zelda, and.

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Speaker 3: I felt like I had my mom. I finally had

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Speaker 3: my mom. I was an adult, but at least I

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Speaker 3: had my mom. Two weeks before she passed, my mom

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Speaker 3: just out of the blue said do you want to

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Speaker 3: go out and go do something together? And I was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know where do you want to go? And

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Speaker 3: she's like, what about that place that has mini golf

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Speaker 3: and go carts? And I was like, okay, then let's go.

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Speaker 3: And I hang on to that moment. Somehow, I feel

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Speaker 3: like she knew that she wasn't going to be around

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Speaker 3: for very long, and she was trying to spend more

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Speaker 3: time with me and trying to do things with me.

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Speaker 4: As for the photograph and the strange circumstances of its appearance,

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Speaker 4: I don't.

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Speaker 3: Feel like it's weird. I just think that it fits

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Speaker 3: my mom's personality to do something like that.

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Speaker 1: How do you mean it fits her personality to do

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Speaker 1: something like.

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Speaker 3: She believed that there's something beyond death. And I've never

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Speaker 3: believed in ghosts or anything or anything after you passed,

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Speaker 3: but if there is something there, my mom would definitely

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Speaker 3: do something like this.

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Speaker 1: See you think that this is almost like a missive

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Speaker 1: from your mom.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's possible, and I feel like this

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Speaker 3: is her trying to say I'm still here.

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Speaker 4: In Jordan's book, she writes that in thin places quote

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Speaker 4: invisible things like music or love or dead people might

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Speaker 4: become visible, or if they don't become visible, they become

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Speaker 4: so present and tangible that it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Like Devon, I'm not.

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Speaker 4: One to believe in ghosts, Yet after talking with everyone,

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Speaker 4: I still don't know where the photo of Kelly came from.

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Speaker 4: No one in Kelly's family can account for it, so

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Speaker 4: after months of searching, the origins of this photo are

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Speaker 4: still a mystery. But in what I see as a

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Speaker 4: series of unexplainable events that began with Jordan sending a

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Speaker 4: book and ended up here, Devin sees her mother, and

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00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 4: it's precisely the unlikeliness of the that she points to

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Speaker 4: as proof.

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Speaker 3: I just think, if you look at all of the

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Speaker 3: little pieces of how this happened, not just anybody would

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Speaker 3: have reached out and tried to find the owner of

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Speaker 3: a photo, I think it would have been tossed in

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Speaker 3: the trash or pushed aside.

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Speaker 5: I feel like.

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Speaker 3: It's like a treasure.

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Speaker 1: From my mom.

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Speaker 3: That's how I feel huh, like my mom placed it

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00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 3: there on purpose and got it into the right hands

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Speaker 3: that would reach out to me.

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00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 4: I'd been thinking of this as a story about male

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00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 4: going to the wrong place, but listening to Devn, I

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00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: wonder if it's actually a story about it going to

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00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 4: the right one to Amy. And yet because the photo

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00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 4: wound up in Amy's hands, Devin didn't get it for

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Speaker 4: an entire year after Kelly's death. If Kelly wanted Devin

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Speaker 4: to have the photo, why deliver it a year late?

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00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: Why?

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00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 5: Now?

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Speaker 3: There have been times where I've really needed somebody to

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Speaker 3: be in my house with me, and out of everybody

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Speaker 3: in my family and out of all of my friends,

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Speaker 3: my mom would drop anything to come and support me.

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Speaker 3: And when she passed, I didn't have that safety net anymore.

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Speaker 10: I had trouble at my job and I had to

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00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 10: take extra time off. But if she's still here, that

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00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 10: makes a difference.

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00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 3: It's not easy losing a mom, so having this feeling

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00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: that she's still here and she's still with me is

397
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: is amazing.

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00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 4: Right after a loss, there are a lot of people

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00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 4: to lean on, but as time passes and people return

400
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 4: to their lives, you begin to feel that loss in

401
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 4: a new way. Houses get cleaned out, clothes get donated,

402
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 4: and all evidence of the person fades away with the photo.

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00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 4: Though Kelly has come back to Devon a year late,

404
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: but perhaps right on time. Devin's grandfather, Dallan Senior, is

405
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 4: turning seventy five soon. Devon told me that they're throwing

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00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 4: him a big party. She's been working on his birthday

407
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 4: present for months, a new family photo album, and along

408
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 4: with all the photographs she's collected, she wants to include

409
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 4: this one safe among the other smiling faces of Kelly's

410
00:25:52,080 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: family members, where surely it won't be lost again. Now

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00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 4: that the.

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00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 5: Fern atures rip turned into its good will.

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00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 3: Home, now that the last month's rant is skiming with

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00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 3: the damage to post, take this moment to dessert.

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00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: If we mentioned if we trash Feld for.

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00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 6: Things as dan Lee.

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00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: Zero.

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Speaker 4: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by me Stevie Lane,

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00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 4: along with Jonathan Goldstein, Phoebe Flanagan, and Mohemi mcgouger. Our

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00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 4: Senior producer is Khaleila Holt. Special thanks to Alex Bloomberg,

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00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: mime O'Donnell, Laurence Silverman, Maureene Taylor, Estelle Ivory and all

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00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 4: The Incredibly Patient People over at the USPS editorial guidance

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00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 4: from Emily Condon. Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original

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00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 4: music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions,

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00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 4: John Jacoby, and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be

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Speaker 4: found on our website gimlimedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our

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00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 4: theme song is by The Weaker Thens, courtesy of Epitaph Records.

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Speaker 1: Amy has just written a new.

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Speaker 4: Book, Artificial, a graphic memoir about her father's efforts to

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00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 4: preserve her late grandfather's life identity using AI technology. You

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00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 4: can find it at your local bookstore. Heavyweight is a

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00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 4: Spotify original podcast. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight, on

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00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 4: Instagram at Heavyweight podcast, or email us at Heavyweight at

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00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 4: gimlipmedia dot com. You can follow our show on Spotify

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00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 4: and tap the bell to receive notifications when new episodes.

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00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: Drop, and one will drop next week.

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00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 5: Hello Stevie's dad speaking.

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00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: Oh that was nice, okay, great Estelle, Thank you so much.

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00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: What is your school about anyway,