1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From House toupports 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And Carolina gotta tell you that every 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: day I need a cup of coffee in the morning. Yeah, 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: me too. Yeah. I have a good friend who just 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: wakes up and drinks a water with a squeeze of 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: lemon in it. And I tried that one morning, and 8 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: while it was semi refreshing, I need my coffee now. 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: Lemon doesn't propel me forward in my footsteps down the street. 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Only coffee can do that. Yeah, and it gives me 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: some It gives me literally a reason to get out 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: of bed. I like it that much. Um. And so 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why an article over at 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: Bitch magazine caught my eye not too long ago. It 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: was by Lisa Nice. It's called the slow roasted Sexism 16 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: of specialty Coffee. And I have to admit when Kristen 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: suggested we talk about gender and the coffee industry, I 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: drew a blank. She threw hot coffee in my face instead. 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: You're crazy. Then I shuffled my papers and walked away. Um. Yeah, no, 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: I really didn't know that there was this whole I 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: don't want to say underbelly. That sounds like we're talking 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: about something it's very seedy. But I had no idea 23 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: that there was this aspect to this whole culture. Yeah, 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: I had no idea either. I mean, I think you 25 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: and I are both well aware of the specialty coffee industry. Um. 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, when once you start digging into the gender, 27 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: it gets really fascinating. So first, let's just talk a 28 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: little bit about what we mean by specialty coffee. We're 29 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: gonna get into just coffee coffee, but this really kicks 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: off with a conversation about specialty coffee, which is really 31 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: devoted to giving consumers a high quality coffee experience, which 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: is not what I do every morning for myself me neither, No, 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: but it is experience, italicized experience. Yes, um. But the 34 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: people in this industry, the specialty coffee industry, really pay 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: attention to every level of the coffee making process. The 36 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: different bean varieties, the soil it's grown in the correct 37 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 1: way to roast it, the different flavor profiles and aromas, 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: the acidity, the espresso dosage, and the flawless service and 39 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: presentation at last, and You might think that the history 40 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: especialty coffee just begins with Starbucks, but actually it was 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: unheard of before nineteen seventy four, and that was the 42 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: year when a lady named Irma Knutson use the term 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: for the first time in the Tea and Coffee Trade Journal. 44 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: And essentially, specialty coffee denotes what at that time was 45 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: somewhat radical idea of how different geographic microclimates of where 46 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: coffee is grown produces various flavor profiles, and so specialty 47 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: coffee emerges as this brewing craft that really seeks to 48 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: preserve the integrity and intensity of those different flavors. Yeah, 49 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: and I would just like to note that my brother 50 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: in law works in specialty coffee, and I enjoy going 51 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: to him and my sister's house because I know I'm 52 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: gonna get amazing coffee. The only downside, Caroline, is because 53 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: of this attention to detail in the morning, when I 54 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: wake up and I want my cup of coffee immediately, 55 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: I usually have to wait about half an hour because 56 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: it's you know, he meticulously weighs out the beans and 57 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: does the special kind of drip coffee brewing technique that 58 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: takes a lot longer. This is not your K cup 59 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: pop it in. Don't even get him started on K cups. Um. Yeah, 60 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: it's incredible. I mean the final product is so rich 61 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: and it's very caffeinated, and it's a very lively experience 62 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: drinking this. But it's uh, it's a process. I'm picturing 63 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: you in a pharmaceutical company ad when you're talking about 64 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: this coffee, like you said lively, and I'm just picturing 65 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: you like bounding around like it's coffee. After I have 66 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: a cup of his coffee, you are bounding around. It 67 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: is incredible, but you just you have to wait for it. 68 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: It's it's slow. Does he use one of those like 69 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: kim X beaker things? Fancy? I don't have. I don't 70 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: have the patients. I just want my coffee grounds that 71 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: I get from whatever store and I want to pour 72 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: them in the filter in my little whatever brand it is, 73 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: coffee made or whatever, and I just wanted to drip 74 00:04:54,600 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: and brew. I need it more, I need it faster, exactly. Well, 75 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: there are so many people who are invested in specialty 76 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: coffee that it's a massive industry. Now. It's worth in 77 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: the US alone thirty billion dollars a year. That's all 78 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: mugs sold at Starbucks. That's all that money is. It's 79 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: all frappuccinos. That's it. And so getting back to that 80 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: bitch article, you might be thinking, well, where is the 81 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: sexism and that well, Lisa nicely argues that as often 82 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: happens in industries like this is reminiscent of our conversations 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: about women in STEMP. As things including coffee have become 84 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: more specialized, you often see a masculinization of that industry. 85 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: Once the profits start going up and you you start 86 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: developing different craft and specialty around it, more men come 87 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 1: into the fold, and rather than coffee serving being something 88 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: that you know, waitresses are doing in diners, now you 89 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: have Resta's right. It's all about kind of social prestige 90 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: being associated with it, and that leads to higher wages. 91 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: And as this happens, it's harder for women to get 92 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: in and then advanced in the field once they're in it, 93 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: and so a lot of this ties into wages, career advancement, 94 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: or even something like coffee competitions. Yeah, and we're going 95 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: to get into those contemporary gender issues with coffee, but 96 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: first we've got to talk about the gendered history of 97 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: coffee and coffee houses because it's it's really fascinating. Yeah, 98 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: and so exclusive, so exclusive of women. But so um. 99 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: Let's go back way back to when coffee was first introduced, 100 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 1: and it was pretty much entirely unknown before the middle 101 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: of the fifteenth century, at which point it was expanding 102 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: in the Red Sea basin area. So that's like the 103 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire. It spreads to the Ottoman Empire over sixteenth century, 104 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: goes over to Venice. People in Venice are drinking it, 105 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: physicians are using it. Then we have Western scholars and 106 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: botanists who start talking about this fancy new plant. Then 107 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: physicians in the West start talking about it too, and 108 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: then the original hipsters come in the the English travelers 109 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,119 Speaker 1: like Sir Henry Blunt who visited Turkey and realized that, hey, 110 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: you know what, not only are the Turks not so bad, 111 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: but they have this incredible hot beverage and it is 112 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: called coffee, and it's the best drink a man can drink. 113 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: And we should note that a lot of this info 114 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: is coming from this book we found called The Social 115 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: Life of Coffee The Emergence of the British Coffee House 116 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: by Brian William Cohen and Cohen talks about how coffee 117 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: houses really start developing into the central institution for the 118 00:07:53,840 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: consumption of coffee and complementary exotic goods in Britain in 119 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, right, And why did that happen. It 120 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: was because of those original hipsters. There was this group 121 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: of Englishmen who called themselves the virtuosi. And what's key 122 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: here about their their self descriptor is that it's an 123 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: Italian word for individuals who were interested in promoting the 124 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: arts and antiquities. They were basically seeking to align themselves 125 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: with this fascinating international world of elite cultural interests. They 126 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: were curious about the outside world. They wanted to develop 127 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: a body of knowledge about it and all of its 128 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: fancy exoticisms and rarities. And some of them got to travel, 129 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: some of them didn't, But regardless, they wanted to get 130 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: together and talk about all of those fancy things. And 131 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: these Virtuosi helped promote coffee as an excellent alternative to 132 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: alcohol because it has those stimulant factors. You can get 133 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: a buzz for sure off of coffee. Right. But the 134 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: way people talk about it, it's so funny. They align it, 135 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: they align it with booze. They align it with heroin 136 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: and opium and all sorts of stuff. Nobody seems to 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: trust this like hot, dark beverage that can cause you 138 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: to to quake in your boots. And it's funny. The 139 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: thing that really really struck me is that the way 140 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: people back then, all the way in the six hundreds, 141 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: talked about coffee, is the way people talk about coffee today. 142 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: All sorts of people were saying, Oh, it's terrible, how 143 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: can you like that stuff? And yet how in love 144 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: with it a lot of people are. They say that 145 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: it's an acquired taste, like tobacco, and Cowan even compares 146 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: it to smoking pot, and he points out that it's 147 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: almost like coffee was made to be a social thing. 148 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: He says, quote, acquiring a taste for such products requires 149 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: a process of socialization and habituation in which the novice 150 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: user learns to make sense of and enjoy their psychoactive 151 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: effects and their taste. And so, you know, just like 152 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: you go to Starbucks or wherever whatever local coffee house 153 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: and sit down and sip your coffee, it was the 154 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: same thing back in the day. Men were going to 155 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: these coffee houses training themselves to enjoy ay it and 156 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: suck it down so that they could have all of 157 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: these political and philosophical discussions with each other. Yeah, because 158 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: as the popularity of coffee is brewing in the late 159 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries, you also have the emergence 160 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: of consumer society and public sphere of people being out 161 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: and like you said, gathering and talking about things and 162 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: trading ideas and talking about current events. And the coffee 163 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: house is such a prime example of that because you're 164 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: going there, you're being seen out, you're purchasing something. It's 165 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: a unique social space in which class and rank are 166 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: temporarily ignored to the benefit of political and philosophical conversations, 167 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: allowing those ideas to flourish. And walk into a coffee 168 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: house today and you'll probably see a group of people. 169 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: You'll see a lot of people on their mac books 170 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: like you know, all on Twitter, but you'll also see 171 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: one little clus stir of people talking. Yeah. Oh yeah, 172 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: I mean speaking of that, I went into a coffee 173 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: house during the snowpocalypse here in Atlanta, hoping to get 174 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: a warm beverage and sit down in a corner. There 175 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: was literally literally not an open space anywhere because everybody 176 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: had their freaking computers. Oh yeah, and I looked Rondam 177 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: like you people could do this at home, But technically 178 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: I could have done that at home too, But it's 179 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: part of that coffee house five. You want to be 180 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: out around people. And so by seventeen twenty, the coffee 181 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: house and coffee consumption is firmly entrenched in British society. 182 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: But uh, even though a lot of people are drinking 183 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: it by this point, it doesn't necessarily have the best 184 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: reputation because you know, some people compared it to you know, tobacco, 185 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: alcoholics and an acquired taste. Not everybody got coffee. Yeah, 186 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: and the people who thought they got coffee kind of 187 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: got it wrong. They it was considered by a lot 188 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: of people to be an anti aphrodisiac that could not 189 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: only render men impotent but women barren, as opposed to chocolate, 190 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: which hot chocolate was considered to be an aphrodisiac. So 191 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: there's your bit of Valentine's trivia. But so anyway, I mean, 192 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: the scare tactics around coffee are kind of ridiculous. The 193 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: virtuos e travel reports of indigenous women incapacitating their husbands 194 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: with drugs before engaging in adultery. Also went back to coffee. 195 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: They talk about Sultan's developing an aversion to women because 196 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: of it, and coffee houses in Turkey and Persia keeping 197 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: male prostitutes. So coffee is like tied up in all 198 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: of these fears about like homosexuality and adultery and basically 199 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: sinful sex. But in England that's actually seen as a bonus, 200 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: these potentially de sexualizing qualities of coffee that they think 201 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: is happening, um because they actually see coffee as something 202 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: that helps preserve chastity. Drink it and you won't want 203 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: to have sex. So well, so all of these assumptions 204 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: and stereotypes start attracting attention on their own. We get 205 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: some mock petition pamphlets circulating that claimed to represent women 206 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: who were sick and tired of their men, using quote 207 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: that drying in feebling liquor. They said that men were 208 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 1: visiting coffee houses too much, thereby losing their masculine sexual vigor, 209 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: and that coffee drinkers were likely to be cuckled by dildos, 210 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: and that this meant the English state was likely declining. Yeah, 211 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: and all of this was happening leading up to that 212 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: seventeen twenty mark where you know you have the coffee 213 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: house firmly entrenched in British society. And but one of 214 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: those mock pamphlets was called This came out in sixteen 215 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: seventy four, and it was called the Women's Petition against Coffee, 216 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: representing to public consideration the grand inconveniences accruing to their 217 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: sex from the excessive use of that drying and feebling liquor, 218 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: Press them to do the right, honorable keepers of the 219 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: Liberty of Venus by a well Willer. And apparently that 220 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: last bit about the liberty of Venus and a well 221 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: Willer was an ironic reference to uh licentious men and prostitutes, right, 222 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: And so nobody actually knows who wrote this pamphlet, whether 223 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: it was a man or a woman, but everybody is 224 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: pretty certain that it is satire of all of this, 225 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: like worry, worry going around about, you know, whether you 226 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: were going to be impotent after you drink coffee. Yeah, 227 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's a little confusing. There's like a tandem 228 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: coffee popularity and panic going on at the same time. 229 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: But in terms of coffee houses and gender, while women 230 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: were perfectly welcome to make plenty of tea and have 231 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: their lady friends over to their drawing rooms. They were 232 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: not very welcome in coffee houses, even though among men, 233 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: as we mentioned, a coffee house was seen as a 234 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: place or your your social rank was momentarily ignored, but 235 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: your gender certainly would not be ignored. No, definitely, And 236 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't like they had an equivalent space to go to. 237 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: Like you said, they they were expected to have tea 238 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: at home. Women's coffee houses were generally an anomaly, and 239 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: even their sheer presence, even if they were just the 240 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: servers there or the proprietors proprietors of the establishment. Women 241 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: being in the quote unquote male coffee houses we're seeing 242 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: as problems to overcome. They were seen as obstacles to 243 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: their philosophical discussions, like the presence of breasts in a 244 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: room will somehow prevent you from discussing matters of the day. Yeah, 245 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: And if women were present in coffee houses, they might 246 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: have been behind the bar, they might have been prostitutes 247 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: um or every now and then, they might have been 248 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: someone like Hester Penney, who was a successful single woman 249 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: in the lace business who actually spent a lot of 250 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: time in British coffee houses. It was sort of how 251 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: she net worked for her business. And but she was 252 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: she was such an exception to the rule. Oh yeah, 253 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: big time. I mean she had a lot of traveling, 254 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: a lot of staying in rooms above coffee houses, above pubs, 255 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: things like that. But you know, we should say too 256 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: that this is largely focused on more urban, metropolitan coffee 257 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: houses in London. Coffee houses in more rural areas where 258 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: a lot more relaxed, they tended to serve as the 259 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: favored locale for rest, recreation and even matchmaking. Oh that's 260 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: like today. How one thing I like to do while 261 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for my coffee is look around to see 262 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: whether or not you can spot like an okay Cupid dat. 263 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: It's always so obvious for some reason. They never have 264 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: coffee in front of them. They usually have an empty table, 265 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: and they're both leaning back a little bit in their chairs, 266 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: and and both are nervously laughing. And usually I try 267 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: to sit by them to eavesdrop because I'm a total 268 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: creep um. But the weird sort of womanly exclusion from coffee, 269 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: these like strange gendered hangups that we had regarding coffee 270 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: did not subside or disappear, I should say. In the 271 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: twentieth century, there's this strange bit of vintage advertising, like 272 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: mid century advertising that you see that's all focused on 273 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: selling coffee based on like husbands being mean to their wives. 274 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: Can explain this better than I can't. It was all 275 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: based on fear. Like there are so many of these 276 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: ads that show the woman being you know, scolded essentially 277 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: by her husband for burning the coffee or making it 278 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: too weak or something, and that the husband would withhold 279 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: his affection until she made the right cup of coffee, 280 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: and then he would give her a kiss on the cheek, 281 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: or he would he would say like, oh, the girls 282 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: down at the office can make a better cup than this. Well, 283 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: and we should say that even up to this point, 284 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: like in the nineteen forties and fifties, coffee is still 285 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: very much considered a man's drink. In Esquire, for instance, 286 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: in they have a guide to making the perfect cup 287 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: of coffee because quote, it's a man's drink and the 288 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: average woman to this day can't make a good cup 289 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: of coffee. That's so weird. I mean, my my vision 290 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: of this era is like the housewife brewing the coffee, right, 291 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: So it's like it's very much within the home sphere, 292 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: within the woman's business at the home, and so it's just, uh, 293 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, advertising, it's averaging, it's advertising. Yeah. I 294 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: think my favorite slash least favorite tagline advertising coffee advertising 295 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: tagline that I saw was from a nineteen sixties commercial. 296 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure which coffee company it was for, but 297 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: it was from a frustrated husband saying to the camera, 298 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: how could such a pretty wife makes such bad coffee? Want? 299 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: What where? Now? This might seem like a stretch, but 300 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: scholars have looked into the what it is called the 301 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: gender coding of coffee, and even today you still hear 302 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: that nine Esquire piece echoed in terms of it being 303 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: a man's drink, because if you think about, say, the 304 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: Starbucks menu, if you put them on some sort of uh, 305 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: gender normative spectrum, on the super masculine end, you're going 306 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: to have an espresso and on the super feminine you're 307 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: gonna have your no fat, skinny, extra whip frappuccino double 308 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: caramel twist. But I don't know, with skittles in it 309 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: or something. Skittles, Yeah, I love my skittles. Frappuccino. Um, yeah, 310 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: it's it's it's funny and strange. And yet, unfortunately it 311 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: makes sense that we seem to align these these drinks 312 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: with gender well because it probably I mean, we might 313 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: think of espresso or black coffee or strong coffee as 314 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: being this more manly drink because it still goes back 315 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: to when it was becoming popular in England in the 316 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds, when it was like, oh, this is an 317 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: acquired chase. It's the thing that you have to It's 318 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: like scotch, you know, or oh, well, you have to 319 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: have a certain kind of strong palate to be able 320 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: to stay on this right and well, Julie writes in 321 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: her book Food, Culture and Society from two thousand seven, 322 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: talks about how you know you do have like we said, 323 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: you do have coffee making coming into the home where 324 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: it does enter the wife's sphere to to make it. 325 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: But espresso never really made that leap. I mean, think 326 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: about how expensive an espresso maker is to get into 327 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: your home. Um, it's largely still like a specialty drink 328 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: that you have to go to a coffee shop for. 329 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 1: And so in that regard, she says, it kind of 330 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: held onto its masculine roots. Yeah, but she also notes 331 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: how espresso beverages, and I would say just any coffee, 332 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: coffee beverages served with milk and sugar are feminine. So basically, 333 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: the more milk, the more feminine, and that's creating a 334 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: weird association between women and lactation in my head. Um. 335 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: But she says that it's not uncommon to hear specialty 336 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: baristas mocking people who drink, say a sixty ounce latte 337 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: or a decaf mocha, as those drinks are implicitly understood 338 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: to be girly or sissy. And there was even another 339 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: study that we found, um, conducted by Aubrey Limburgh in 340 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, where it was sort of an observational thing. 341 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: She worked at a coffee shop and she was just 342 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: noting how men and women acted at when they were 343 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: ordering coffee, and especially how like a single woman by 344 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: herself versus with us, say a boyfriend and partner would act. 345 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: And she found that when men by themselves would come 346 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: up and say, order a cappuccino or one of the 347 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: girlier kinds of drink, that they would be like, oh well, 348 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: they'd always kind of like get a little nervous to 349 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: be like, oh, I offer some qualifier like, well, I 350 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: would just I gotta I guess I have a sweet 351 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: tooth today. Yeah, they would always have to preface it like, hey, 352 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not a girly man. Yeah, I'm a 353 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: man's man. I know I'm not supposed to drink right, 354 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: and then you know, yeah. She also pointed out trends 355 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: that she noticed, like women were a lot more indecisive 356 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: if they asked for for suggestions from the staff, they 357 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: would immedi the girl would immediately take the suggestion, whereas 358 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: men or or guys would you know, walk up and 359 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: know exactly what they wanted, you know. So it brings 360 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: us up to today though, and we still need to 361 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: talk about this issue of gender within specialty coffee because 362 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: speaking of Barista's let's hot behind the counter and see 363 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: what Lisa nicely and that bitch article is really getting 364 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: at with her claim that there is a, as she 365 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: puts it, slow roasted sexism of specialty coffee. So let's 366 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: talk about that when we come right back from a 367 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: quick break and now back to the podcast. So we've 368 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: talked a lot about the gendering of coffee drinking, but 369 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: what about the gendering of coffee making and serving. This 370 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: is specifically a focus on barista's or bro resta culture. Yeah, 371 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: and I have a feeling that anyone working in a 372 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: coffee house listening to this just cringe the at bro resta. 373 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: But when you look into barrista competitions, because yes, those 374 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: are big things. There are things called Thursday night throwdowns 375 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: that happen at a lot of either like specialty coffee 376 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: UM companies, like they'll open up their kitchens that for 377 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: different baristas to come in and like practice their skills, 378 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: or they might happen at different higher end coffee houses. Um. 379 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: But when it gets into the competitive aspect of specialty coffee, 380 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 1: because yeah, that's now a thing. Especially coffee is so 381 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: big that there are now World Rista championships. Actually there's 382 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: only one World Breefa Championship, but these different competitions exist. 383 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: And one thing Lisa nicely it bitch points out is that, 384 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: well it's usually just guys competing. Yeah, And the debate 385 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: over that fact alone is pretty interesting because while there 386 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: are a lot of people saying, you know, this is terrible, 387 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: they're being very exclusionary. They're not letting women in, or 388 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: they're not encouraging women, or they're even discouraging women from participating. 389 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: There are others on the flip side who were saying, 390 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of us don't even care. There's 391 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: just as many men as women who don't give a 392 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: hoot about these competitions. It's really about making good coffee 393 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: and and we don't care. So what. Yeah, And speaking 394 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: of so what, people listening who are not immersed in 395 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: coffee culture might be thinking, well, who cares about barisa 396 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: competitions period? I mean, those are the kinds of accolades 397 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: that will get you good jobs in this industry, so 398 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: that it absolutely does make a difference. Um. But for instance, 399 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: with the w ald Barista Championship, since the year two thousand, 400 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: the year two thousand, all the winners have been guys. However, 401 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: if you look at the US Barista Championship, it has 402 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: had four female winners. In fact, one woman, Heather Perry, 403 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: one twice in a row I think, and she came 404 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: in second in two thousand seven at the World Barista Championships. 405 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: So they're definitely women who are slinging coffees at these 406 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: really intense competitions. I've seen part of one and yeah wow. 407 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: And when a lot of these conversations come up, there 408 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: are some barista's out there who are saying, you know what, 409 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: can we just let sleeping dogs lie? There was one 410 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: woman who wrote a column in response to this, uh, 411 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: this discussion, basically saying, I don't even want you to 412 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: think about my gender for whatever reason. I want to 413 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: be taken seriously as a barista, as someone who makes 414 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: quality coffee. I don't want you to think of me differently, 415 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: either because of or despite my gender. Yeah, I mean. 416 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: And this also came up uh in a cover story 417 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 1: for Barista magazine. Yes that exists. Uh. It was a 418 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: cover story from two thousand twelve called Coffee Women of 419 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. And I will say that the photo 420 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: essay that went along with it did look like something 421 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: out of Portland, and it was lovely women in fields 422 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: with coffee paraphernalia, draped in gorgeous blankets. Um. So it's 423 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: kind of funny, but um. One of them, Layla Gambari, 424 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: said women have to be really good to get to 425 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: that level, talking about the competition level, and she says, 426 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: the truth is that not a lot of women are 427 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: doing this. So that does need to be pointed out. 428 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: But again, throughout their conversation too, it was clear that 429 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: they didn't want to be seen these women who were 430 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: being highlighted in the magazine as just a niche. They 431 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: didn't want to be women in coffee. They're at the 432 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: top of their game professionally there, you know, they wanted 433 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: to just be seen as you know, in credible coffee experts. Right, yeah, 434 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: I mean this, I this is stuff that I never 435 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: would have thought of it would have thought about that 436 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: that was even an issue looking back at the history 437 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: of um kind of sexism and and coffee is crazy. 438 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: Well you I mean, you hear anecdotally too from if 439 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: you go into more of the lower rungs of coffee culture, 440 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: away from the competition, you do hear from women who 441 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: are working behind counters who have noticed that there is 442 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: a difference. And I think it's more of a service 443 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: industry thing where you you know, customers walk up and 444 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: they see uh, mail barista behind the counter, and they 445 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: assume that he's more of a specialty guy who knows 446 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: he's a barista. In other words, whereas women are treated 447 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: more as just just servers or just waitresses. There you know, 448 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: it's kind of the feminization of of lower level service 449 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: industry work, and a lot of people have written pieces 450 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: about just that horrible interaction customer barista or customer server 451 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: interaction um where people do kind of make assumptions about 452 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: women and men making the coffee and and basically treating 453 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: women like, oh, you're so cute, you made a cup 454 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: of coffee, good job, you know, or or just commenting 455 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: on their looks, just being generally inappropriate toward women. I 456 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: wonder if that this is totally tangential, And I have 457 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: no academic citation for this, but I wonder if that 458 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: wasn't kind of perpetuated by Rachel and friends, because you know, 459 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: she works at the coffee shop, but she just sort 460 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: of serves as like a pretty face and she never 461 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: knows how to make the coffee. It's like that stereotype 462 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: that like, women in coffee shops are just Rachel's to 463 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: be there. Interesting. I don't know. I didn't watch enough 464 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: Fronts to even think about that, but you might have 465 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: a point. An old roommate of mine had the entire 466 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: Box Settle episode, and there was a period when we 467 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: had no cable. So I'll just leave it at that well, 468 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: but also what we haven't touched on, you know, moving 469 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: away from moving outside the walls of the coffee shop 470 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: to the actual fields, mountains, areas geographically where this coffee 471 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: has grown and who is doing the growing. Because while 472 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: we do have a discussion going on in this country 473 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: about male versus female, man versus woman making the coffee, 474 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: who's getting more money, the industry being professionalized, um, you 475 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: have even greater disparities when it comes to the farmers themselves. Yeah. 476 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: I feel like almost the most important thing globally speaking 477 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: to pay attention to in this conversation of gender and 478 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,959 Speaker 1: coffee is the issue of sourcing, really paying attention to 479 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: where your coffee comes from. And this is also where 480 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: paying attention to buying fair trade makes a big difference, 481 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: because uh, this is over at the fair Trade blog. 482 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: They mentioned that female ownership of coffee bushes is an 483 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: entrenched taboo because in a lot of the countries where 484 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: our coffee comes from, um, they live in more patriarchal 485 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: societies where men are absolutely the heads of household. And 486 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: even though women and children might be doing a majority 487 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: of the work in terms of planting and cultivating and harvesting, 488 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: the coffee beans or the coffee berries. Um, they don't 489 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: see any of the profits from it, right, and so 490 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: the male head of household kind of has say over 491 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: how that money is spent. Yeah. The Guardian in fact 492 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: estimates that that women tend to do six eight percent 493 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: of the productive work. And so there are lots of 494 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: initiatives underway through fair trade organizations. Um, you also have 495 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: the National Union of Coffee, Agribusiness and Farm Enterprises for instance, 496 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: that are really starting to go into these communities and 497 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: educate the men about the importance of sharing the wealth 498 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: in a way and um, kind of making it more 499 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: of an equal gender equal pro says, but also empowering 500 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: women with their own money and land and control over 501 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: wealth because traditionally in developing countries, when women control the 502 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: wealth and a household, it is spent more wisely. Absolutely, 503 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: And there are groups that are forming too that want 504 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: to buy specifically from female farmers, with some of the 505 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: proceeds going to fund things like mobile cervical cancer screening 506 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: buses things like that, or even purchasing new efficient stoves 507 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: so smoke doesn't fill the home that improves general health, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, 508 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it's I'd never thought about this 509 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: before at all. I mean, and it's again paying attention 510 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: to where your food and drink comes from. Um. But 511 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: there are suggestions too that when women grow the coffee 512 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: and are given that control over it, the product is better. 513 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: You have a greater harvest. I mean, because if they're 514 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: in there already doing six of the work, they know 515 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: how to grow that coffee. Um. So it's it's interesting 516 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: to sort of take more of a global perspective of 517 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: this conversation away from just what's going on at your 518 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: local coffee haunt. Yeah. And I'm trying to think of 519 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: of the of the coffee spots that I go to, 520 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: what kind of gendered patterns I've noticed. I mean, there 521 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: definitely is the drink divide where you are more likely 522 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: to see women drinking there. I mean, I love a 523 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: soy latte. I'm not gonna lie, um, but I also 524 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,959 Speaker 1: love a black coffee. I mostly only ever drink just 525 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: a black coffee. Rarely would I ever drink an espresso 526 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: because but that's more I like to savor it. I 527 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: want to drink it longer. I don't want it to 528 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: go wayte so fast. Yeah, I want to enjoy a 529 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: hot beverage. Yeah, yeah, I remember growing up it was 530 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: always a joke and I never really thought about it 531 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: in my household because my mom drinks exclusively black coffee, 532 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: whereas my dad requires sugar and milk, And it was 533 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: always like if he ever accidentally drank her coffee, it's like, 534 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: oh no, here is so strong, and she's like, well, 535 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: I guess even though I'm a lady, I like my 536 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: coffee strong. And we would all laugh. And then my mom, 537 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: who's a flight attendant, likes to tell jokes about when 538 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: you're going down the aisle with your beverage cart, you know, 539 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: saying coffee, tea or me. So my mind, yeah, like 540 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: coffee service has been intertwined with well service. Yeah, and Caroline, 541 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: we could keep talking about the stuff. I feel like 542 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: we haven't even touched on everything, but um, for the 543 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: sake of our listeners, ears, we're gonna wrap it up now, 544 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: and we want to hear from any Barris is listening 545 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: to this ring a bell at all? I will say 546 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: that when I mentioned to my brother in law, who 547 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: works for a specialty coffee company that I'm not going 548 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: to name, just in case he'll be weird for him. Um, 549 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: but they do make delicious coffee. Uh. When when I 550 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: told him that we were doing a podcast on gender 551 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: and sexism and specialty coffee, he knew what I was 552 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: talking about. So I want to hear from you all. 553 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: What do you think? Mom Stuff discovery dot com is 554 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: where you can send us your letters, and you can 555 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or send us 556 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: a message on Facebook. And we got a couple of 557 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now about our episode 558 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: on can Birth Control Kill You? So I've got one 559 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: here from Jen and she writes, Hi, ladies, thank you 560 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: all caps so much for your big picture look at 561 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: the recent Vanity Fair article can Birth Control Kill You? 562 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm an O. B. G U I N position at 563 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: the Kaiser Permanente in Northern California where the lead study 564 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: you quoted was conducted, and have had to feel so 565 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: many questions from patients in response to this recent very 566 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: one sided article. I always counsel patients requesting birth control 567 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: on the risks and benefits, including vt E, as is 568 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: my responsibility as a physician. That being said, I also 569 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: sure to tell them that their risk of blood clots 570 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: is dramatically higher with pregnancy, which is the main reason 571 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: women start birth control to begin with. You mentioned this 572 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: briefly at the end of the podcast, but to put 573 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: things in perspective, while two out of ten thousand women 574 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: on no birth control and seven out of ten thousand 575 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: women on the neuver Ring will develop the blood clot, 576 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: one in five hundred to two thousand women who are 577 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: pregnant will develop blood clots. All in all, it is 578 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: much safer to be on the neuver Ring than it 579 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: is to be pregnant, especially in that cohort of women 580 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: with higher risk factors. I love listening to your podcast 581 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: and love that you have given so much even sided 582 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: attention to important topics such as this. So thanks Jen, 583 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: Well Kristen. I hope the letter you just read makes 584 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: our next listener who wrote in feel a little bit better. 585 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: This is a letter from Lacey, who says I'm currently 586 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: using the neuver Ring. I've been on it for several 587 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: years now and it's the only birth control it that 588 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: I've ever liked. And I've tried Depa, Privera and the Patch, 589 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: which was awful, and oral birth control. Your episode made 590 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: me nervous, but I did want to say with regards 591 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: to asking the doctor about birth control, my guy now 592 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: has always told me that new Bring is the safest 593 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: form of birth control because it's the lowest dose of estrogen, 594 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: which always made me feel so good. Oh yeah, I 595 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: love this birth control and it's good for me great. 596 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: So it's alarming to hear the opposite. But thank you 597 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: for the podcast. This type of information is so important, 598 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: So thank you for writing in, Lacy, and again, I 599 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: hope you your mind has put a little bit at 600 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: ease from the doctor who wrote in that Kristen. Kristen 601 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: read her letter. Um again, everybody out there, just make 602 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: sure you educate yourself and talk to your doctor exactly 603 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: and educate us let us know your thoughts. Mom. Stuff 604 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: at discovery dot com is where you can send us 605 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: your letters and if you want to connect to us 606 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: on social there are so many options. You should head 607 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: on over to find all of them, as well as 608 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: all of our podcast, blogs and videos at the Internet 609 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: Home of stuff Mom Never told you that Stuff Mom 610 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: Never told You dot com for more on this and 611 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot 612 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: Com