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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: A few months ago, I asked my executive producer to

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Speaker 2: download a bunch of online sports betting apps and open

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Speaker 2: up accounts with them, partly because I live in California,

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Speaker 2: where sports betting isn't yet legal, and Lydia Jane Kott,

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Speaker 2: my producer, lives in New York, where it is legal,

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Speaker 2: and partly because well, I just thought it would be

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Speaker 2: kind of fun to see what would happen when you

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Speaker 2: thrust someone like LJ into the sports gambling jungle, someone

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Speaker 2: with exactly zero interest in sports and even less interest

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Speaker 2: in gambling, someone who just hates the idea of putting

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Speaker 2: money at risk. LJ is not a fan, and she's

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Speaker 2: really not a gambler.

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Speaker 3: So you know, once I log in, I see on

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Speaker 3: my screen it's honestly a really overwhelming view of things.

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Speaker 3: It's all blue, it says fandual sports book, and there's

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Speaker 3: a ton of different options.

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Speaker 4: So there's NFL, MLB.

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Speaker 2: Let's take an example. Let's click on NC double a football.

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Speaker 3: There's banners everywhere that are like, refer a friend, give

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Speaker 3: fifty dollars, get fifty dollars, and then if you scroll down,

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Speaker 3: it has different bets that you can do so, it says,

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Speaker 3: for instance.

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Speaker 4: College football odds.

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Speaker 3: And then there's a list of NC DOUBLEA football games,

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Speaker 3: and then it allows you to bet on different games

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Speaker 3: and in different ways.

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Speaker 2: Do you find yourself being nudged in any direction by

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Speaker 2: the app? Does the way the information is presented to

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Speaker 2: you lead you to some action?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So like if I were to just open it and

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Speaker 3: have no plan, it says like popular same game parlay

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Speaker 3: bets is what I'm being nudged to do.

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Speaker 4: Or bet on the Battle of the Birds on Monday

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Speaker 4: in a.

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Speaker 2: Football It's a kind of mission to enter this new

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Speaker 2: world and look around without spooking the natives.

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Speaker 1: LJ is perfect for it.

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Speaker 2: I've sent her to interview people who should be extremely

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Speaker 2: wary of any journalists. They're basically never wary of her.

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Speaker 2: They just hander everything she asks for and more. Do

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Speaker 2: you know who's playing?

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Speaker 3: I guess the atl Falcons and Philadelphia Eagles.

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Speaker 4: So I'm being nudged to bet on on that.

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Speaker 2: Do you know who? Where the atl Falcons are based?

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Speaker 4: Atlanta? Okay, you're trying to send me I do know.

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Speaker 4: I do know my state abbreviations.

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Speaker 2: Atlanta's not a state.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's Okay, that's a low blow.

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Speaker 4: My god, that's a bridge too far.

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Speaker 5: We can make fun of my lack of sports knowledge,

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Speaker 5: we cannot just go into make fun of Liniogude for

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Speaker 5: everything on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Before she'd even placed a single bet, FanDuel and DraftKings

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Speaker 2: and all the lesser apps were spamming her so incessantly

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Speaker 2: that her Gmail account became unusable. All these people she

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Speaker 2: didn't know wanted her to begin her new life as

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Speaker 2: a sports gambler as soon as possible, and they're so helpful,

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Speaker 2: so kind, so relentless with their special offers. But LJ

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Speaker 2: has been coy reluctant waiting for her jungle guide. Which

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Speaker 2: books do you have set up? LJ?

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Speaker 4: I have Fandol, DraftKings and.

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Speaker 2: Fliff Rufus Peabody sports Gambler, whom we met last episode

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Speaker 2: in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 6: Do you have not like Bette Rivers or whatever I mean?

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Speaker 4: I think at whatever?

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Speaker 1: What are the other.

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Speaker 2: Ones in New York?

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Speaker 1: Bet MGM, Get bet MGM.

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Speaker 6: Okay, they'll limit us very quickly, but they will be

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Speaker 6: very easy to win out first.

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Speaker 4: Okay, great, Okay, I'll download bet.

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Speaker 2: And Jim Rufus has a problem. Both FanDuel and DraftKings

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Speaker 2: heavily limit the amount he could bet because Rufus actually

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Speaker 2: knows what he's doing, and Rufus's bets tend to win.

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Speaker 2: So Rufus will be the brains and most of the money.

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Speaker 1: LJ will be well.

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Speaker 2: Her role has had many names, runner, mover, betting partner,

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Speaker 2: also mule.

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Speaker 1: I like mule mule.

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Speaker 2: Sort of creates a picture in your head. Rufus loads

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Speaker 2: the backs of his mules with cash and wax them

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Speaker 2: on their fannies, and they saw her off into the

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Speaker 2: marketplace and then returned to him, weighted down with even

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Speaker 2: more cash. And how much do you imagine you'd be

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Speaker 2: wiring to her?

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Speaker 4: So I would say.

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Speaker 6: I'd probably be wiring her maybe fifty grand, or send

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Speaker 6: me fifty grand her way.

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Speaker 2: So I don't want to be greedy, and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to be foolish, okay, but I think it is

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Speaker 2: a fun idea for me to have a little piece

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 6: So Michael, you want downside, yeah, okay, Cotly So LJ

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Speaker 6: is the best deal, but she also well at the

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Speaker 6: end of this, probably won't be able to bet her

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Speaker 6: in her own name for very much money, more than

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Speaker 6: maybe seventeen dollars for.

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Speaker 2: The rest of her life. So that's the cost here.

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Speaker 4: I'm willing that's it. Yeah, I'm okay with that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Ziel, I'll be a simple investor. I'll win or

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Speaker 2: lose with Rufus. LJ will have big upside and a

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Speaker 2: tiny bit of money at stay. Mostly, she'll be putting

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Speaker 2: her reputation as a sports gambler at risk. By the

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Speaker 2: time we're done, no sports bookie will ever take any

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Speaker 2: real action from her ever again, or so says Rufus.

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Speaker 4: How long do you think we're going to last?

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Speaker 6: I really don't know. This will be interesting to see.

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Speaker 5: But if we last forever and they just make like

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Speaker 5: a lot of money, that would be the best case scenario.

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Speaker 1: Yes it would.

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Speaker 2: But the truth is, we just want to see how

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Speaker 2: this market works. I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against

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Speaker 2: the rules. We're all about characters and situations here this season.

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Speaker 2: The fan is our character and sports gambling is our situation.

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Speaker 2: Back when sports gambling was against the law, it was

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Speaker 2: fairly easy to play sports bets. I know that sounds odd,

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Speaker 2: but if you ask any serious gambler that tell you

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Speaker 2: the challenge wasn't getting your bets down.

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Speaker 1: It was finding smart bets to make. Now sports gambling

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Speaker 1: is legal.

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Speaker 2: In thirty eight states, and very weirdly, it's easier to

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Speaker 2: find smart bets than to actually place those bets, because

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Speaker 2: the new system doesn't want to maximize the number of

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Speaker 2: sports bets that Americans make. It wants to maximize their

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Speaker 2: stupid bets. The bets, as they say, with negative expected value,

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Speaker 2: the bets that if you make enough of them, you're

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Speaker 2: certain eventually to lose, and so any smart sports gambler

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Speaker 2: obviously needs to adapt. At Pushkin Industries are here to

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Speaker 2: help our jungle guide Rufus Peabody smart sports gambler now

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Speaker 2: basically can't bet under his own name, or at least

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Speaker 2: not very much. The DraftKings and fan duels don't want

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Speaker 2: to take the other side of his action, so Rufus

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Speaker 2: and other sharps have built these teams of people who

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Speaker 2: do nothing but place their bets. The smart gamblers can't

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Speaker 2: really afford to be too picky about their new teammates

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Speaker 2: because the hours are long and the money's uncertain. In truth,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to find people who are both broken enough

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Speaker 2: and reliable enough for the job, and once Rufus has

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Speaker 2: hired you.

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Speaker 1: The relationship can become pretty impersonal. To Rufus. These mules are.

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Speaker 2: Just names on a spreadsheet, a PayPal address on his phone.

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Speaker 2: Some he's never met. Most of the bet sports on

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Speaker 2: their own, usually badly. A few even think they know

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Speaker 2: almost as much as Rufus, which is never a good sign.

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Speaker 2: So LJ will be a different kind of mule for

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Speaker 2: a start. She'll need a lot more breaking in than most.

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Speaker 6: Okay, let's open the FanDuel app and kind of look

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Speaker 6: at the navigation there.

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Speaker 1: Their first sit down is just a dry run.

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Speaker 6: The FanDuel app can be harder to navigate. It's considered

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Speaker 6: the best app. There's like live scoring on it. I mean,

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Speaker 6: I guess there is a fan tool as well.

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Speaker 4: And then I have ten dollars.

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Speaker 2: You have ten dollars. Amazing. LJ has ten dollars in

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Speaker 2: her account. Rufus fixes that issue with a few clicks.

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Speaker 2: He moves a few thousand more dollars into Lj's bank account.

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Speaker 5: It's crazy how quickly you can like disassociate from like

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Speaker 5: what these numbers, Oh yeah, their.

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Speaker 2: Numbers in a spreadsheet.

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Speaker 6: That's basically all it is.

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Speaker 2: Rufus wants to start by checking out the lines on

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Speaker 2: Adam Scott. LJ has never heard of Adam Scott.

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Speaker 1: He's a golfer.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Adam Scott will win the tournament.

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Speaker 5: Adam Scott tournament winner plus one seventy five.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, So I say we bet that. But let's

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Speaker 2: see we know how much we can bet it for.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I'm in the right place, right.

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Speaker 6: I'm going to click on this, click on the plus

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Speaker 6: one seventy five worst case scenario where we're priming the account.

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Speaker 2: Here, priming the account. It's what Rufus calls it when

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Speaker 2: he intentionally places dumb bets. He usually does this with

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Speaker 2: his new mules. It makes the gambling companies even more

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Speaker 2: eager to take his future bets. Lose a bit upfront

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Speaker 2: to win much more later.

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Speaker 6: And let's see it, says ad stakes. So what if

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Speaker 6: we tried it, we put it? How much did we deposit?

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Speaker 2: Five thousand?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: What if we tried to put it for three thousand dollars?

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Speaker 6: We'll see if they take it? Can we do that?

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Speaker 5: You?

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Speaker 6: Okay with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean it's not I don't know, I.

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Speaker 7: It's not my truck.

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Speaker 2: What did they say?

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Speaker 6: They said, oh, well, they'll give you two thousand, two

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Speaker 6: hundred and twenty five dollars and fifty eight cents.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, go for it. Processing.

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Speaker 4: But okay, my bet has been sected.

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Speaker 2: Good luck done. That's how we do it.

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Speaker 6: And then when do we know, Well, well, no, on Sunday,

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Speaker 6: I thought bet one. We'll have many more bets before then.

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Speaker 1: All of this is currently legal.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Rufus can still partner up with other gamblers,

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Speaker 2: but it's massively irritating to the gambling companies who treat

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Speaker 2: Rufus as a kind of cheater, a card counter at

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Speaker 2: the blackjack table.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think of him that way.

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Speaker 2: He's actually figured out stuff about sports, about why things

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Speaker 2: happen in sports that other people don't know. He's more

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Speaker 2: like a smart stock market investor. He knows better than

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Speaker 2: the market knows the right price for some bet. What

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Speaker 2: kind of market refuses to let the smartest people in

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Speaker 2: this market?

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Speaker 1: As it turns out, and so here we are. LJ

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Speaker 1: is actually useful to Rufus.

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Speaker 8: It's mostly trust is kind of one of the biggest things.

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Speaker 2: That's Tom Peabody, Rufus's younger brother, who runs the mule

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Speaker 2: team and so spends lots of time looking for new

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Speaker 2: mules to replace the ones who've been worn out.

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Speaker 8: It's like wife, girlfriend, mother, like we've gone through my

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Speaker 8: mom and dad's accounts, but generally friends and family, and

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Speaker 8: then when you get past that, it's kind of other

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Speaker 8: people that you.

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Speaker 2: Trust, people like LJ, who, as I say, is a

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Speaker 2: bit different as mules go. Because we asked Rufus and

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Speaker 2: Town to supply her with nothing but smart bets, and

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Speaker 2: that's not what they would normally do.

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Speaker 8: If LJ were starting for us and we wanted to

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Speaker 8: keep that account, we would probably bet ten to twenty

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Speaker 8: bets right at post on NFL, college football, tennis, anything.

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Speaker 8: We're happy to lose money in the short term to

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Speaker 8: have some more account longevity.

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Speaker 2: That's actually not how LJ plans to roll. She's going

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Speaker 2: to just place these smart bets and see how the

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Speaker 2: bookies respond. Her first was that two grand or so

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Speaker 2: on Adam Scott. Adam Scott for Bertie at eighteen flew

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Speaker 2: out of the flag. Adam Scott loses, and we're a

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Speaker 2: couple of thousand dollars poorer. But our experiment is on, Hey,

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Speaker 2: so tell me what's happened what's going on?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So when I was in Rufus's apartment, I'll find

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Speaker 5: great time. What I found difficult is then I left

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Speaker 5: Rufus's apartment. I came back to the office and I

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Speaker 5: was by myself, and it's like.

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Speaker 4: Literally gibberish. He just texted me gibberish.

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Speaker 2: Read it to me.

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Speaker 3: Sung JM Top ten plus one ninety. This is in

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Speaker 3: the top finished heading. Also Sung JM ties pay in

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Speaker 3: full plus one sixty.

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Speaker 5: Those are DraftKings. Also same bet SUNGJYM top ten plus

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Speaker 5: one ninety at FanDuel, sorry about to take off.

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Speaker 2: Turns out Rufus is doing all this from a plane.

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Speaker 2: He just wired her these tens of thousands of dollars

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Speaker 2: to use to bet. Now he's up in the sky

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Speaker 2: somewhere completely out of touch.

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Speaker 5: Sungday, I am top five ties pay in full plus

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Speaker 5: five fifty DraftKings. Sunday I am top five under top

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Speaker 5: finished heading plus seven hundred DraftKings. Sunday I'm top five

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Speaker 5: plus seven hundred FanDuel.

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Speaker 2: So I don't even know what sport this is. Is

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Speaker 2: this golf?

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Speaker 4: I think it's golf.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, before I believe it's golf.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any interesting golf.

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Speaker 4: No, I've never watched golf.

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Speaker 2: Do you know how many holes there are?

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Speaker 5: Nine?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Uh, actually eighteen, but that's okay.

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Speaker 1: I thought I got that right.

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Speaker 2: You can kind of see why I thought she'd be perfect, right.

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Speaker 2: She's impossible to suspect of anything, a kind of baby

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Speaker 2: faced assassin, the Steph Curry of podcasting, the bullet you

268
00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:19,676
Speaker 2: never see coming until it's too late. But she does

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00:14:19,796 --> 00:14:21,716
Speaker 2: need to learn how to press the right buttons on

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Speaker 2: her gambling app.

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Speaker 3: Like after we get off the phone, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be placing one, two, three, four, five, six seven bets.

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Speaker 3: And the fun thing about it also is that I

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Speaker 3: don't understand at all what they are as of now.

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Speaker 3: I'll probably be placing like ten another ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: after we get off the phone, and I'll be sweating.

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Speaker 5: One bet takes me about half an hour. It's genuinely

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Speaker 5: really scary, Like I feel like I hYP prevent, like

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Speaker 5: I get my I get really scared. I hypreventally. I

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Speaker 5: peace around for a little bit and pretend I haven't

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Speaker 5: seen it, don't.

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Speaker 2: You aren't you kind of in a hurry to get

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Speaker 2: the best down in case the line.

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Speaker 3: Moves So I talked about this with Rufus like a lot,

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Speaker 3: and he said that I'll always have at least a

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Speaker 3: few hours.

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Speaker 2: Actually, Rufus has told her she had a few minutes

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Speaker 2: to get the bets down, but never mind.

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Speaker 5: I always cried this morning because I was like, did

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Speaker 5: I just lose five thousand dollars?

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Speaker 4: And I realized I had just done the accounting one.

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Speaker 2: I could not be worse for the stob. Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: perfect Ye're the perfect mule. They're gonna They're gonna call

294
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Speaker 2: you up to see if you were actually a sharp

295
00:15:26,156 --> 00:15:28,276
Speaker 2: and they're gonna talk to you for like six seconds ago.

296
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Speaker 2: There's no way she knows anything. I'm about to realize

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Speaker 2: my first mistake. I sort of imagine that if the

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Speaker 2: gambling companies got suspicious about Lj's bets, some human from

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Speaker 2: DraftKings or fan Duel would call her up. Then LJ

300
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Speaker 2: would do what LJ does and lull them to sleep.

301
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Speaker 2: But it turns out the first she has to get

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Speaker 2: past the algorithms, the programs that the sports gambling companies

303
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Speaker 2: use to detect smart betters, and one of the things

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Speaker 2: they scan for are people with a talent for placing

305
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Speaker 2: bets where the odds that then move in their favor

306
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Speaker 2: people who seem to be ahead of the market. Another

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00:16:07,516 --> 00:16:09,636
Speaker 2: thing they'd do is check to make sure you're a guy.

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Speaker 2: At least that's what Rufus says. They are not a

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Speaker 2: lot of female sports gamblers, and basically none who are

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Speaker 2: laying obscure five thousand dollars bets on golf. I had

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Speaker 2: imagined LJ as an ideal mule, in part because she

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Speaker 2: so obviously didn't know what she was doing, and second

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Speaker 2: because even when she knows exactly what she's doing, she's

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Speaker 2: really good at allowing you to think that she doesn't.

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Speaker 2: But this isn't how you fool the gambling companies. You

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Speaker 2: fool them by finding mules who can play a role,

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Speaker 2: people like Beckett.

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Speaker 7: You basically want to find a way to portray yourself

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Speaker 7: as close to being a problem gambler as possible. You know,

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Speaker 7: I've been everything from an incredibly rich, entitled trust fund

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Speaker 7: guy to a sort of a maniac commenting on every

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Speaker 7: point scored in every basketball came, bemoaning his losses in

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Speaker 7: the morning and begging for a redeposit as well.

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Speaker 1: That's Beckett. It's not his real name.

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Speaker 2: He uses his real name to make his bets, and

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Speaker 2: so he doesn't want anyone to know it. We're also

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Speaker 2: disguising his voice, and we promise to say nothing about

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Speaker 2: him except that he's been a highly successful sports gambler

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Speaker 2: almost as long as Rufe's Peabody. But Beckett's got a

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Speaker 2: slightly different angle than Rufus. Rufus has been limited on

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Speaker 2: the apps, so he gets other people to place his bets.

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Speaker 2: Beckett becomes other people in order to place his own

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Speaker 2: bets on the apps.

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Speaker 7: You know, they're classified as recreational butt makers. They're not

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Speaker 7: sitting there trying to figure out what the optimal line

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Speaker 7: should be for each game. They're basically marketing and technology

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00:17:53,756 --> 00:17:55,956
Speaker 7: companies which happen to be in the business of gambling,

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Speaker 7: and their strategy is to find players who they believe

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Speaker 7: will not beat the house edge and then just get

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Speaker 7: them to play as much as possible. So what they

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Speaker 7: end up doing is something called steak factoring.

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Speaker 2: Steak factoring is the apps figuring out just how smart

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Speaker 2: you are and assigning limits. These limits change is the

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Speaker 2: algoes watch.

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Speaker 1: What you do.

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Speaker 7: Once they realize that you are competent, they might give

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00:18:23,636 --> 00:18:28,076
Speaker 7: you a steak factor of ten percent, and they might say, okay,

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Speaker 7: you are only allowed to bet five hundred dollars. Once

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Speaker 7: they realize or believe you are incompetent, they might give

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Speaker 7: you a steak factor of up to ten times the amount,

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Speaker 7: so you might be able to bet fifty thousand dollars

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Speaker 7: on something, but a new customer might only be able

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Speaker 7: to bet five thousand on, and that a professional might

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00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:52,876
Speaker 7: only be able to bet five hundred dollars on. They

355
00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:56,316
Speaker 7: sort of, you know, open the floor set once they

356
00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:57,836
Speaker 7: realize that you're not good.

357
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Speaker 2: And apart from raising limits on the incompetent, what else

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00:19:03,836 --> 00:19:09,116
Speaker 2: might they do to encourage the incompetent to practice their incompetency.

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00:19:09,116 --> 00:19:11,996
Speaker 7: I would perhaps a sign of the IP host to

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00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:16,796
Speaker 7: that person, and that host would offer them as soon

361
00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:21,476
Speaker 7: as of inducements to continue betting, to continue depositing, to

362
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Speaker 7: continue playing.

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00:19:23,196 --> 00:19:25,836
Speaker 2: Beckett's goal is to get those inducements and to get

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00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:29,636
Speaker 2: those really high limits, to get past the velvet ropes,

365
00:19:30,396 --> 00:19:35,276
Speaker 2: to get himself into the same rooms with the dumb betters. Well,

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Speaker 2: give me examples of how a professional gambler or an

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00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:43,916
Speaker 2: edge player would induce one of these companies to invite

368
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Speaker 2: you into the vipre room and up your limits.

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Speaker 7: Essentially, you would be creating bets that you know the

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00:19:51,796 --> 00:19:56,676
Speaker 7: sportsbook wants to see, and he would do them a

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00:19:56,796 --> 00:20:01,796
Speaker 7: volume that is high enough that you grab their attention

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Speaker 7: and you get contacted and then bunce you're in the inside,

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Speaker 7: you know good things happen.

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Speaker 2: But once you're on the inside, wouldn't they spot that

375
00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:14,076
Speaker 2: your behavior changed? You don't want to continue to play

376
00:20:14,156 --> 00:20:17,356
Speaker 2: stupid bets, So how long or do they do? They

377
00:20:17,396 --> 00:20:19,316
Speaker 2: tag you as dumb and then don't pay attention for

378
00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:19,756
Speaker 2: a while.

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Speaker 7: You know, it's a fine line. Some people are not

380
00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:25,396
Speaker 7: very nuanced at it, and we'll expose themselves very quickly.

381
00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:30,316
Speaker 7: But in general, you have quite a lot of leeway

382
00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:33,756
Speaker 7: once you're in those programs, and you know there are

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00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:36,076
Speaker 7: things that you can do to not make your behavior

384
00:20:36,476 --> 00:20:38,596
Speaker 7: as an advantage plan as obvious.

385
00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:41,716
Speaker 2: Once you're in the VIP programs, you get to meet

386
00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:45,556
Speaker 2: actual human beings. At the gambling companies, they invite you

387
00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:48,796
Speaker 2: to the next game, They tempt you with special offers

388
00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:52,276
Speaker 2: to bet. Sometimes they even give you money to bet,

389
00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:57,116
Speaker 2: like actually let you make bets for free. In theory,

390
00:20:57,196 --> 00:20:59,956
Speaker 2: these new companies are required to flag people with gambling

391
00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:02,956
Speaker 2: problems and limit them, guide them to shrinks who can

392
00:21:02,996 --> 00:21:05,676
Speaker 2: help them, and end the cycle of misery caused by

393
00:21:05,716 --> 00:21:10,516
Speaker 2: gambling addiction. In practice, it seems not so much.

394
00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:15,556
Speaker 7: I was developing my character as a very frustrated, losing

395
00:21:15,556 --> 00:21:19,836
Speaker 7: gambler who keep throwing money in. One day, I sent

396
00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:23,876
Speaker 7: this host a flurry of messages after some really heavy losses,

397
00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:27,756
Speaker 7: you know, over the previous few days. I sent message

398
00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:32,076
Speaker 7: off the message and the host called me absolutely exasperated

399
00:21:32,676 --> 00:21:35,436
Speaker 7: and said, hey, man, look, look, I know you're really frustrated.

400
00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:37,516
Speaker 7: I'm sorry you lost. Don't worry. I'm going to take

401
00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:40,916
Speaker 7: care of you. But please please do not put messages

402
00:21:40,996 --> 00:21:44,516
Speaker 7: like that in writing. Compliance might see it, they might

403
00:21:44,556 --> 00:21:47,316
Speaker 7: get worried, they might have to close your account, and

404
00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:49,396
Speaker 7: you know we don't want that to happen. So just

405
00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:51,236
Speaker 7: call me next time. Don't put it in don't put

406
00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:52,996
Speaker 7: it in writing, and hey, I'll give you forty percent

407
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:53,836
Speaker 7: on your next deposit.

408
00:21:54,636 --> 00:21:56,516
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable, it's disgusting.

409
00:21:56,596 --> 00:21:58,076
Speaker 7: It's absolutely disgusting.

410
00:21:58,436 --> 00:22:00,316
Speaker 1: How important to those companies?

411
00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:07,796
Speaker 2: Do you think the ATTIC is incredibly important? I should

412
00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:09,876
Speaker 2: say that we've reached out to the mad Sports betting

413
00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:14,076
Speaker 2: companies Fan Duel and DraftKings for comment on this alleged practice,

414
00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:18,436
Speaker 2: and they've declined our requests or just haven't responded. But

415
00:22:18,516 --> 00:22:21,076
Speaker 2: it seems clear from talking with betters themselves that in

416
00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:23,916
Speaker 2: this world, the problem gambler isn't the guy using his

417
00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:27,076
Speaker 2: life savings to chase his losses. The problem gambler is

418
00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:30,996
Speaker 2: a person like Beckett and Rufus and maybe even LJ.

419
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Speaker 5: I believe I'm down.

420
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Speaker 2: LJ was maybe not the perfect mule. I was learning that,

421
00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:54,476
Speaker 2: but I thought that at least she might be a

422
00:22:54,556 --> 00:22:58,876
Speaker 2: happy mule. She's not a happy mule. She's a mule

423
00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:01,796
Speaker 2: that every time Rufus tries to spur to action, keeps

424
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Speaker 2: circling back towards the barn.

425
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Speaker 5: At one point, Rufus said, we were up, and I

426
00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:08,076
Speaker 5: believe we're down.

427
00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:08,916
Speaker 2: I'm not.

428
00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:11,516
Speaker 3: But I got sent in an Excel spreadsheet that I'm

429
00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:13,716
Speaker 3: supposed to start filling out, which I think will help

430
00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:16,316
Speaker 3: because I think my accounting system that I made up

431
00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:17,796
Speaker 3: seems to be flawed.

432
00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:22,076
Speaker 2: Do you have any sense of how much more he's

433
00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:25,876
Speaker 2: betting on these same golfers elsewhere at the same time.

434
00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:28,116
Speaker 4: No idea.

435
00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:30,516
Speaker 3: I mean, he did show me like a huge spreadsheet

436
00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:31,636
Speaker 3: of like he has.

437
00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:32,796
Speaker 4: I think he has.

438
00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:36,156
Speaker 3: Currently thirty mules, and it kind of seems like he

439
00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:40,596
Speaker 3: has like a dashboard of how up everyone is overall,

440
00:23:40,996 --> 00:23:42,876
Speaker 3: and I think it's like five million, but I don't

441
00:23:42,876 --> 00:23:44,036
Speaker 3: know what other people are doing.

442
00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:46,276
Speaker 2: Do you have a sense that he's pleased with you

443
00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:46,836
Speaker 2: as a mule.

444
00:23:49,956 --> 00:23:52,276
Speaker 3: No, I don't think he could possibly be released with

445
00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:54,396
Speaker 3: me as a mule, which is partly why this feel

446
00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:55,076
Speaker 3: so bad.

447
00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:00,836
Speaker 7: A wondreless customer you are.

448
00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:04,676
Speaker 2: And then she went dark on a perfectly beautiful weekend,

449
00:24:04,996 --> 00:24:06,716
Speaker 2: a day when she could have been laying tens of

450
00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:10,476
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars on professional golf. She just up and

451
00:24:10,556 --> 00:24:14,116
Speaker 2: went to the beach, spent hours without so much as

452
00:24:14,116 --> 00:24:18,676
Speaker 2: glancing at her phone. And I think, Lja, the rule

453
00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:22,356
Speaker 2: is that mules really don't go to the beach. You've

454
00:24:22,436 --> 00:24:24,916
Speaker 2: got to be available when they are ready to bed,

455
00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:27,956
Speaker 2: poor LJ. It's just if you want to be an eagle,

456
00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:31,076
Speaker 2: if you want to fly, you don't go to the beach.

457
00:24:31,676 --> 00:24:33,436
Speaker 1: You got to be there. We tend to make a bed.

458
00:24:34,116 --> 00:24:37,356
Speaker 8: We can be we can be better about uh about

459
00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:39,676
Speaker 8: some advanced notice too. We can give LJ a couple

460
00:24:39,716 --> 00:24:41,796
Speaker 8: of beach hours here and there.

461
00:24:41,756 --> 00:24:44,556
Speaker 1: Turm Peabody again Rufus's brother Mule Runner.

462
00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:46,996
Speaker 2: Yet I don't know how smart it is for Rufus

463
00:24:47,036 --> 00:24:50,436
Speaker 2: to send her essentially a page full of Greek instructions

464
00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:52,036
Speaker 2: and then get on a plane and say I'm not

465
00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:54,796
Speaker 2: available for the next four hours, just to just do it.

466
00:24:56,556 --> 00:24:59,036
Speaker 4: I felt like like that was like a test.

467
00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:02,516
Speaker 8: It's like learning a different language.

468
00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:07,516
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I'm going to stop the recording.

469
00:25:10,036 --> 00:25:12,196
Speaker 2: She had a lot of things working against her, obviously,

470
00:25:12,196 --> 00:25:15,676
Speaker 2: including her day job producing this podcast, But in spite

471
00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:18,316
Speaker 2: of that, in just the first two days, she'd managed

472
00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:21,796
Speaker 2: to get some bets down twenty thousand at least maybe

473
00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:25,596
Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars chicken feed to Rufe's Peabody, but kind

474
00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:29,076
Speaker 2: of a shocking sum to a podcaster these days. Are

475
00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:30,996
Speaker 2: you surprised he's been able to get the bets down

476
00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:31,836
Speaker 2: that she's gotten down.

477
00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:38,396
Speaker 8: No, because in the beginning, they don't limit you super

478
00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:42,396
Speaker 8: super quickly. They need to see enough where they're pretty

479
00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:45,236
Speaker 8: confident that you're not going to lose that money back.

480
00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:48,996
Speaker 8: Bigger events, they're more likely to think, okay, you're just

481
00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:51,996
Speaker 8: sort of you're watching the big golf events.

482
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:56,556
Speaker 2: Just four days after becoming a mule, LJ saw the

483
00:25:56,596 --> 00:26:00,036
Speaker 2: first sign of trouble. She's placed the bets Rufus wanted

484
00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:04,516
Speaker 2: to make with four different sports bookies, Fan Duel, DraftKings,

485
00:26:04,996 --> 00:26:08,876
Speaker 2: bet Rivers, and bet MGM. Most of the bets have

486
00:26:08,916 --> 00:26:12,836
Speaker 2: law lost, but she placed two bets of four thousand

487
00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:17,076
Speaker 2: dollars each on golf at DraftKings and both of these

488
00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:21,876
Speaker 2: bets won. Inside of her DraftKings account, eight thousand dollars

489
00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:25,876
Speaker 2: has grown to more than sixteen thousand dollars. But then

490
00:26:25,916 --> 00:26:28,316
Speaker 2: inside that same account, she tried to make another bet

491
00:26:28,876 --> 00:26:30,316
Speaker 2: and Draft Kings wouldn't let her.

492
00:26:32,396 --> 00:26:37,756
Speaker 5: Okay, it is Tuesday, August twenty seventh, so I emailed

493
00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:41,556
Speaker 5: DraftKings to get back in because there's no number that

494
00:26:41,596 --> 00:26:45,636
Speaker 5: I can call. And I got a response this morning

495
00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:49,476
Speaker 5: and it says there appears to have been a pattern

496
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:51,956
Speaker 5: of unusual activity on your account and as a result,

497
00:26:52,036 --> 00:26:55,196
Speaker 5: we have placed temporary restrictions on your account as a

498
00:26:55,236 --> 00:26:58,636
Speaker 5: precautionary safety measure. You will notice that although you can

499
00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:00,556
Speaker 5: still log in, you may not be able to deposit

500
00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:04,556
Speaker 5: or withdraw. We will be more than happy to reinstate

501
00:27:04,556 --> 00:27:06,036
Speaker 5: your account pending verification.

502
00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 1: You heard that right.

503
00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:12,116
Speaker 2: Not only can she not bet, they're saying she might

504
00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:13,436
Speaker 2: not be able to get the money out.

505
00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:16,796
Speaker 5: Please upload an image of you holding your current driver's

506
00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:19,876
Speaker 5: license next to your face by clicking the upload now

507
00:27:19,956 --> 00:27:23,956
Speaker 5: button below. We appreciate you helping us keep your account secure.

508
00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:27,596
Speaker 2: Roughly a nanosecond later, she got another email from some

509
00:27:27,716 --> 00:27:29,036
Speaker 2: other part of DraftKings.

510
00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:32,156
Speaker 5: In order to remove the current restrictions on my account,

511
00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:35,596
Speaker 5: I have to upload a self certified ID and also

512
00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:40,076
Speaker 5: uploading my pay paul confirming ownership and showing transactions to DraftKings.

513
00:27:40,956 --> 00:27:44,156
Speaker 5: That's from someone who is called a Draft King player advocate,

514
00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:45,676
Speaker 5: which is cool.

515
00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:47,076
Speaker 4: I didn't know I had an advocate.

516
00:27:48,676 --> 00:27:50,476
Speaker 2: As it turns out, this is all just a day

517
00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:53,356
Speaker 2: in the life of a mule. A few days later,

518
00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:57,036
Speaker 2: fandueill follow DraftKings and cut lj's limits by eighty percent.

519
00:27:58,036 --> 00:28:01,156
Speaker 2: They never say anything, They just stop taking all but

520
00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:06,236
Speaker 2: the smallest bets, which sounds sad. But then LJ calls

521
00:28:06,316 --> 00:28:11,436
Speaker 2: me and she sounds different. She sounds happy.

522
00:28:11,636 --> 00:28:14,156
Speaker 4: Okay, So here's what I am dying to tell you.

523
00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 2: Okay, tell me.

524
00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:19,996
Speaker 3: This morning I woke up to a text message that

525
00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:22,996
Speaker 3: says the following from a number that's not in my contacts.

526
00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:25,956
Speaker 4: Hi, Lydia, this is Courtney from BETMGM.

527
00:28:26,436 --> 00:28:28,716
Speaker 3: I wanted to reach out and introduce myself as your

528
00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:30,916
Speaker 3: VIP account representative slash host.

529
00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:33,196
Speaker 4: I saw you had some great play.

530
00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:39,116
Speaker 2: Yes, great play at BETMGM. LJ had lost eight thousand dollars.

531
00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:41,036
Speaker 2: That was the great play.

532
00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:42,876
Speaker 4: Congratulations.

533
00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:45,036
Speaker 3: Please let me know if you have any questions or

534
00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:46,956
Speaker 3: if there's anything I can do to help out. So

535
00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:49,436
Speaker 3: I didn't answer because I wasn't sure what to do,

536
00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:52,956
Speaker 3: and then she texted, would love to get you out

537
00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:54,796
Speaker 3: to one of our events as my guest if you

538
00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:58,156
Speaker 3: are interested. We have Charlie XCX coming to MSG on

539
00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,316
Speaker 3: the twenty third, and Megan Trainer at MSG as well.

540
00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:04,316
Speaker 3: That's Madison Square Garden on the twenty fifth, which is

541
00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:07,476
Speaker 3: like the concert of the Summer, Charlie at XCX. Would

542
00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:09,276
Speaker 3: either of those be something you'd be interested in?

543
00:29:11,076 --> 00:29:11,356
Speaker 2: Well?

544
00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:13,316
Speaker 4: So yeah, are you?

545
00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:14,396
Speaker 2: Are you interesting?

546
00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:15,556
Speaker 5: Yes?

547
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:16,316
Speaker 4: I'm interested?

548
00:29:17,076 --> 00:29:19,836
Speaker 3: So I said, you know, great, like, how's this work?

549
00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:23,396
Speaker 3: Is it discounted? And she said the tickets are on me.

550
00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:26,556
Speaker 3: They're my personal tickets and are bet MGM Suite at

551
00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,316
Speaker 3: MSG both food and beverages are included for the.

552
00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:29,996
Speaker 4: Night as well.

553
00:29:30,636 --> 00:29:36,076
Speaker 3: And then Michael, I asked for a plus one.

554
00:29:35,156 --> 00:29:37,716
Speaker 4: And she said absolutely. Which concert do you want to

555
00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:37,996
Speaker 4: go do?

556
00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:40,876
Speaker 3: And I asked for Charlie XCX and she said, she

557
00:29:40,916 --> 00:29:44,636
Speaker 3: got me two tickets and she's she said, I'll actually

558
00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:47,036
Speaker 3: be hosting that event as well, So I'm very excited

559
00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:48,716
Speaker 3: to meet and be able to see you in person.

560
00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:50,756
Speaker 3: The tickets will be sent to your email forty eight

561
00:29:50,796 --> 00:29:52,036
Speaker 3: hours prior to the concert.

562
00:29:53,316 --> 00:29:56,196
Speaker 1: The Life of a Mule clearly it has its ups

563
00:29:56,236 --> 00:29:56,756
Speaker 1: and downs.

564
00:29:57,476 --> 00:30:00,316
Speaker 2: LJ is now basically unwelcomed about large sums of money

565
00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:01,276
Speaker 2: for the rest of her life.

566
00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:02,476
Speaker 1: The two sports books that.

567
00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:06,356
Speaker 2: Now control the new market DraftKings froze her account after

568
00:30:06,396 --> 00:30:09,756
Speaker 2: she won eight thousand dollars. FanDuel saw something they didn't

569
00:30:09,836 --> 00:30:12,716
Speaker 2: like and stopped taking her big bets, even though she

570
00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:17,836
Speaker 2: was actually down five thousand bucks. But this market, this jungle,

571
00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:22,516
Speaker 2: is obviously complicated, and this mule is not like other mules.

572
00:30:23,316 --> 00:30:28,196
Speaker 1: This mule is special. This mule is now a VIP.

573
00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:39,396
Speaker 2: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael

574
00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:42,436
Speaker 2: Lewis and produced by Lydia, Gene Coott, Catherine Gerdeau and

575
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,556
Speaker 2: Ariela Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is

576
00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:50,436
Speaker 2: Jake Korski. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and

577
00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:53,836
Speaker 2: John Evans of stell Wagon Cinfinett. Our fact checker is

578
00:30:53,876 --> 00:30:57,996
Speaker 2: Lauren Vespoli. Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries.

579
00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:02,436
Speaker 2: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,

580
00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:06,996
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and if

581
00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:09,436
Speaker 2: you'd like to listen to ad free and learn about

582
00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:12,636
Speaker 2: other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up for a

583
00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:17,716
Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot fm, Slash Plus, or

584
00:31:17,716 --> 00:31:18,916
Speaker 2: on our Apple show page.

585
00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:29,236
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna text my boyfriend that I can't come

586
00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:31,876
Speaker 5: with him to take the dog out because I'm sports betting.

587
00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:37,796
Speaker 5: I'm going to draft Kings. I'm choosing Davis Thompson two

588
00:31:37,836 --> 00:31:41,916
Speaker 5: way minus one forty five, and I'm entering my wager

589
00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:50,196
Speaker 5: amount for four thousand dollars and I'm gonna say place bet.

590
00:31:53,436 --> 00:31:55,796
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be honest. I kind of find this to

591
00:31:55,836 --> 00:32:00,516
Speaker 5: be a little scary. I'm gonna share that with reefus.

592
00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:05,076
Speaker 5: Oh it got placed, I'll tell them it got placed.

593
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:10,036
Speaker 4: Way did the race