Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question.
Speaker 1: I am super psyched you guys, because my guest today
Speaker 1: is the creator of the show everyone is talking about
Speaker 1: The White Lotus. I'm obsessed. In its second season, the
Speaker 1: series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and the people
Speaker 1: who work at a stunning seaside resort in Sicily. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the White Lotus. I am Valentina, the roysorts manager.
Speaker 1: How is it both right? It was? I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: impressed that you're even here. Why are you impressed? It's
Speaker 1: a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old. No, anyway,
Speaker 1: Isabella here, we'll take you up to the account and
Speaker 1: bring you to your your beautiful groom and after you
Speaker 1: a glass of prof thank you. Before the luxe world
Speaker 1: of The White Lotus, Mike White spent much of his
Speaker 1: time on The Proof Are creating characters who were two loners, weirdos,
Speaker 1: and wanderers in movies like Chuck and Buck, The Year
Speaker 1: of the Dog with Molly Shannon, The Good Girl with
Speaker 1: Jennifer Anniston, and School of Rock with Jack Black, popular
Speaker 1: movies in their own right, but nothing like The Mean
Speaker 1: producing headline driving conspiracy filled chatter surrounding the White lotus.
Speaker 1: It seems like it's a new, slightly uncomfortable position for
Speaker 1: Mike to be in. I see myself as an underdog
Speaker 1: and I and I'm always like that, Like I'm always
Speaker 1: going to see myself as like somebody who has to
Speaker 1: prove something. So like, even in success, I still feel
Speaker 1: like I don't know, Yeah, I'm not. I don't feel
Speaker 1: like an impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know,
Speaker 1: like you know, I slipped in through the side door
Speaker 1: or something. Today we dive into all of it, the
Speaker 1: making of the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters,
Speaker 1: Mike's childhood, and how he really feels about his newfound fame.
Speaker 1: So let me just first start by asking what does
Speaker 1: it feel like to be Mike White these days? Well?
Speaker 1: What a question? I uh, you know. I we honestly
Speaker 1: just finished the final episode. We had a very crazy
Speaker 1: shooting schedule that because of COVID and because of weather
Speaker 1: and Italy and a lot of different reasons, we went
Speaker 1: over our shoot and so I thought HBO would give
Speaker 1: us a little break and let us air later than
Speaker 1: what we were expecting, And instead they were like we
Speaker 1: need it when we need it, and so it cut
Speaker 1: into our post. So I was editing and finishing the
Speaker 1: show up until like ten days ago. So I've just
Speaker 1: been like, I'm I'm living in Hawaii right now for
Speaker 1: tax reasons. There's a good incentive for them to do
Speaker 1: the post here, which is great. But I soa I've
Speaker 1: been kind of in a bubble. I'm just been finishing
Speaker 1: the show, uh, living on an island, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, I don't I don't know what
Speaker 1: it's like to but it, but it doesn't I'm not
Speaker 1: getting It's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking
Speaker 1: around l A and like getting a high five from
Speaker 1: people or anything like that. So it's it's it, but
Speaker 1: I'm but I'm excited that it's sentence that that people
Speaker 1: are watching the show and liking it, and I'm definitely
Speaker 1: getting that. But it's but it's just pretty I'm still
Speaker 1: kind of living on an island and living in a bubble. Well.
Speaker 1: Having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. I mean
Speaker 1: you are sort of the envy of everyone in Hollywood,
Speaker 1: and this is something that you've talked about kind of
Speaker 1: willingly in an article you did in in Vulture. You
Speaker 1: talked about Hollywood, Who's up, Who's down, kind of how
Speaker 1: people are all envious of one another and that you're
Speaker 1: uber competitive. So have you been have you said all that, Mike,
Speaker 1: have you been able to take a moment and it's
Speaker 1: kind of say the bomb? Oh my god, No, no
Speaker 1: that's not me, but but yes, I I am. I'm
Speaker 1: you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like i'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm fifty two years old, and I've been doing this
Speaker 1: since I was twenty two years old, and so and
Speaker 1: I've had, you know, a lot of things made, and
Speaker 1: a lot of things that I thought were successful, but
Speaker 1: not at this yeah, with this kind of reaction. And
Speaker 1: so I just sort of feel like to use the like,
Speaker 1: since I'm in Hawaii, like an analogy that fits here,
Speaker 1: which is like I feel like I'm a surfer who's
Speaker 1: been out in the ocean for a long time and
Speaker 1: like I caught a wave. I don't know why this wave,
Speaker 1: but like you know, obviously I I'm old enough and
Speaker 1: have had a long enough career to see it as yeah,
Speaker 1: a blessing and but also something that you can't you know,
Speaker 1: I I would never try to chase this reaction because
Speaker 1: I just it's just it's just you just never know
Speaker 1: what's gonna yeah, what people are gonna respond to. So
Speaker 1: I'm excited. I'll take your word for it that that's that.
Speaker 1: It's it's that, Yeah, I don't know. I'm obviously I'm happy.
Speaker 1: It's like I mean, I I was like at the
Speaker 1: age where I was just like can I keep doing?
Speaker 1: You know, like it was like maybe the old Gray
Speaker 1: Mary what she used to be, And I'm gonna like
Speaker 1: so like it's nice to have a little like uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's definitely fun. I'm very excited, but I
Speaker 1: don't know whatever. Well, let's talk about the genesis of
Speaker 1: White lotus um. I was at a party and I
Speaker 1: heard from a couple of Hollywood types that HBO had
Speaker 1: access to a hotel that was empty in Maui during
Speaker 1: COVID and came to you and said, hey, Mike White,
Speaker 1: can you write a show that takes place in a hotel?
Speaker 1: Is that how it started? It? Kind of? It definitely
Speaker 1: was like they need they had a lot of projects
Speaker 1: that had fallen apart because of COVID, and so they
Speaker 1: just they knew why I was kind of fast and
Speaker 1: that like I was good with dialogue, and that like
Speaker 1: maybe a show that was very that I could write
Speaker 1: a show in a bubble that was like that would
Speaker 1: maybe be immune from some of the COVID uh issues
Speaker 1: that they had come upon. And so so they asked
Speaker 1: me to do it, like can you come up with
Speaker 1: a bubble show? But they didn't have a I was like,
Speaker 1: it was my idea to do it in a hotel.
Speaker 1: And I I was like, and I'm you know, I
Speaker 1: have a place in Kuaie and I'm like, and I
Speaker 1: knew that there were all these hotels that were just
Speaker 1: yeah defunct and they were just head shut down because
Speaker 1: of COVID, And I was like, we could grab one
Speaker 1: of those hotels in bed in Hawaii. But they didn't
Speaker 1: even really want us to go to Hawaii because that
Speaker 1: was already to um treacherous potential issues with COVID. They
Speaker 1: wanted us like they probably would have been having even
Speaker 1: found like a hotel and like Lancaster, like you know
Speaker 1: across the street from Casey Boys's house or something, right,
Speaker 1: So like so yeah, I just um uh, so yeah,
Speaker 1: I had to push for Hawaii. But yeah, it was
Speaker 1: kind of a mix a mix of that, and tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about how you were inspired to
Speaker 1: write really both seasons, but let's start with the first.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you sit down to write this, Mike,
Speaker 1: what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind
Speaker 1: of a big broad question, but I'm just curious. You've
Speaker 1: got a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you
Speaker 1: decide I want to show class differences. I wanted to
Speaker 1: show really interesting characters. I think one of the things,
Speaker 1: I one of many things I love about this show
Speaker 1: is it feels very current. You know, sometimes things get
Speaker 1: made and they come out a couple of years later
Speaker 1: or even a year later, and they don't feel oh
Speaker 1: karent or of the moment. And I think White Load
Speaker 1: has felt so tuned into current sensibilities. So just talk
Speaker 1: to me a little bit about your thought process when
Speaker 1: you put a finger to keyboard. Are you talking about
Speaker 1: like the like the first season? Yeah, sure, and we'll
Speaker 1: talk about the second. Yeah. The first season it was
Speaker 1: I I you know, I've spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: in Hawaii, so you know, some of and a lot
Speaker 1: of the in Hawaii, there's definitely like two classes. There's
Speaker 1: the you know, the tourists and the moneyed people who
Speaker 1: come and like you know, have their vacations here. And
Speaker 1: then there's the service class of people who you know,
Speaker 1: can be at any you know, some of them are
Speaker 1: do very well financially, but they're all servicing these tourists,
Speaker 1: and so you you know, if you hear long enough,
Speaker 1: you get like this. You know, the I obviously know
Speaker 1: the tourist side of it because I've been there, and
Speaker 1: I you know, it's like and a lot of my
Speaker 1: friends who visit, you know, so I get that part
Speaker 1: of it, but they also you know, the service side
Speaker 1: of it. And I just felt like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: something about doing you know, because obviously Hotel or like
Speaker 1: Fantasy Island, you think Love Vote, Like there's like there's
Speaker 1: like a history of these kind of shows in this
Speaker 1: kind of you know, trying to genre exactly, but to
Speaker 1: do something that is a little bit more well observed,
Speaker 1: and that kind of gets it. You know. I just
Speaker 1: thought it was like an interesting about how money, who
Speaker 1: has the money impacts relationships both obviously from the server
Speaker 1: and the you know, customer, but also you know, the
Speaker 1: husband and the wife and the father and the child
Speaker 1: and and and so it just felt like maybe as
Speaker 1: a theme that seemed rich, and so that was kind
Speaker 1: of initial impulse because I was like, we're gonna be
Speaker 1: in a hotel. You know, nobody can leave. It's kind
Speaker 1: of has to be a crucible everyone, you know, And
Speaker 1: so yeah, it kind of built out from there. And
Speaker 1: then it was just like years of maybe years of
Speaker 1: too much being online and like Twitter speak and like
Speaker 1: it was just like I was like, like I would
Speaker 1: just started freestyling as far as just like trying to
Speaker 1: get at some of the I don't know the kind
Speaker 1: of contemporary language and stuff like that. It seems to
Speaker 1: me you're almost like a an anthropologist kind of discovering
Speaker 1: and exposing human behavior. And I when I watch I
Speaker 1: wonder how much of this did Mike learn from being
Speaker 1: on reality shows how people act? Because obviously you were
Speaker 1: in Survivor. On Survivor, I understand you're a good friend
Speaker 1: of Jeff Probes. Do you love reality television? You were
Speaker 1: on the Amazing Race with your dad. So did some
Speaker 1: of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus?
Speaker 1: Am I getting too weird on these questions? No? Not
Speaker 1: at all. I I mean I actually what I loved
Speaker 1: when I when I you know, because I was obviously
Speaker 1: a writer before the big reality boom, which I think
Speaker 1: started like in two thousand ish. Um. And then uh
Speaker 1: but like you know, you show like Survivor came along
Speaker 1: and you were like, wow, it was showing people, you know,
Speaker 1: one minute they would be very irritating or very petty,
Speaker 1: and then the next minute they would be very um,
Speaker 1: vulnerable and your heart goes out to them, and then
Speaker 1: they could be courageous, and I don't know, it was
Speaker 1: just like you would see these these I mean because
Speaker 1: they were people. It was like fully dimensional humans. And
Speaker 1: even though maybe the format could be formula, uh, there
Speaker 1: was something I just as a writer, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is this is you know, this this makes you
Speaker 1: want to raise your game as far as like when
Speaker 1: you are creating characters that people are watching, because it
Speaker 1: felt like they were always surprising and you were you know,
Speaker 1: you just you There wasn't some internal integrity obviously, but
Speaker 1: there was also all of these colors and so it
Speaker 1: I've always wanted to try to write characters that could match,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the great you know, personalities that
Speaker 1: you see in reality TV. So yeah, I do think
Speaker 1: that's a that's a part of it. And I just
Speaker 1: think when I was very young, starting very early, I
Speaker 1: was I was always um, you know, I had Sam
Speaker 1: Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved
Speaker 1: her son and I loved her, and so it was
Speaker 1: the first time that I realized, oh, people were play rights.
Speaker 1: So very early on I was writing little plays and so, like,
Speaker 1: I've always listened, and I've always been interested in how
Speaker 1: people talk, because I've always thought about things in terms
Speaker 1: of dialogue, and then also how what they say about
Speaker 1: themselves doesn't always necessarily match what they think and doesn't
Speaker 1: always match what they are going to do, and so
Speaker 1: that's always been interesting to me, and so I've always
Speaker 1: been kind of an observer of of that. I guess
Speaker 1: I think your childhood, though, in addition to being taught
Speaker 1: by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which is a
Speaker 1: cool little fact at Trivia fact Um, you grew up
Speaker 1: in an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were
Speaker 1: always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike, Well,
Speaker 1: my parents were very loving and I loved. I had
Speaker 1: a very nurturing, positive, um nuclear family. My dad was
Speaker 1: a minister, and we were part of a bigger, kind
Speaker 1: of more evangelical religious community, and it was there that
Speaker 1: community where it was death really felt. I always felt
Speaker 1: a little alien. I never really drunk the kool aid,
Speaker 1: as they say, and I I always yeah, it was
Speaker 1: there where you I think that I, you know, some
Speaker 1: of the you know, part of drama is is yeah,
Speaker 1: getting past then, you know, the facade and trying to
Speaker 1: see what people really do and what people really are like,
Speaker 1: but beyond what they say they do. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of those
Speaker 1: smaller evangelical communities about you know, certainly around sex and
Speaker 1: around how people you know, think about you know, what
Speaker 1: the motivations for behavior are and stuff, and so I
Speaker 1: I have so it always I always felt like I
Speaker 1: was like I always wanted to know. I was like,
Speaker 1: what's the what's the real you know, like I've always
Speaker 1: been like, yeah, interested in like what really how what
Speaker 1: people do and how that that's sometimes not really in
Speaker 1: line with how they present themselves. I think that shows
Speaker 1: up in a lot of your work, Mike. I was
Speaker 1: rewatching Brad's status, and I think that was very effective
Speaker 1: in terms of this inner turmoil brad a k ah
Speaker 1: Ben Stiller is experiencing, comparing him his station in life
Speaker 1: to all of his college friends who were doing much better.
Speaker 1: And I think that external internal conflict is something it
Speaker 1: seems to me that you you go back to. And
Speaker 1: I read that when you were eleven, your dad came
Speaker 1: out to your family. He was a minister, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: but also a gross writer for people like Jerry Fallwell
Speaker 1: and Tammy Baker, and you once said finding out about
Speaker 1: your dad's sexuality is quote the key to everything I write.
Speaker 1: How so well just in the sense of what I
Speaker 1: was just talking about, which is, you know, uh, it's
Speaker 1: a big run to be pulled from under you where
Speaker 1: you know, you've think your family is this thing, and
Speaker 1: your dad is this thing, and he's a minister, and
Speaker 1: then you realize there's this other, whole other side, which
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily a dark side, it's just a truth. And
Speaker 1: the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to
Speaker 1: be in the world. And and so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: exploring that and and and and I think that that, yeah,
Speaker 1: that just just to me, it just you know, obviously
Speaker 1: it hit home in a literal way, just that you know,
Speaker 1: we are more complicated than we present ourselves, and that
Speaker 1: we put are certain face to our community, and that
Speaker 1: that maybe in drama and showing some of that. Obviously
Speaker 1: there's a titillation part of it, but then there's like
Speaker 1: maybe some kind of solace to know that, like everybody
Speaker 1: is grappling with this, like that the person that we
Speaker 1: want to be and the person that the world wants
Speaker 1: us to be, we're not always that and that's okay
Speaker 1: and that's human and and that kind of thing. You
Speaker 1: went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said you finally
Speaker 1: found your people there. So how did Wesleyan affect you,
Speaker 1: not only as a person but as a writer. Well,
Speaker 1: I I was in a kind of more homogeneous community
Speaker 1: growing up in high school, you know, and grade school,
Speaker 1: and so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a
Speaker 1: very open minded liberal community in general, and also just
Speaker 1: these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was
Speaker 1: just like I just felt like I was like like
Speaker 1: behind the curve, you know. I was kind of a
Speaker 1: self taught. I mean, I was just I mean I
Speaker 1: went to a good school, but it was like as
Speaker 1: far as culture and stuff, I was just I was,
Speaker 1: you know, I like, I had my own like subscription
Speaker 1: to the New Yorker for I was, I was just
Speaker 1: trying to find my way through the culture. And so,
Speaker 1: like I would, I went to Wesley and all these
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of I mean, it was a
Speaker 1: lot of New York Jewish kids who are like very
Speaker 1: like fully baked and fully like you know, you know,
Speaker 1: like new fancy people. And I was just like I
Speaker 1: kind of was just I felt like a rube. But
Speaker 1: I got but I was so enamored by the yeah,
Speaker 1: the whole vibe there and and still to this day,
Speaker 1: a lot of those kids I met there are are
Speaker 1: my my friend group. And when you when you graduated
Speaker 1: from Wesleyan, were you really interested in play writing or
Speaker 1: just writing in general? Well, I wanted to be a playwright.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be Sam Shepherd. I went from California
Speaker 1: to Yeah, to Wesley and and I was like I
Speaker 1: didn't have socks and I didn't realize how cold it
Speaker 1: was back East. I was like, this is too cold
Speaker 1: for me. Like I so I was like, I was like,
Speaker 1: my plan was to go to New York was starting playwright.
Speaker 1: But I was like, I don't know if I could
Speaker 1: handle this weather, I was like, so, I like kind
Speaker 1: of I fell into the wrong crowd and came back
Speaker 1: to l A I was started writing for for movies
Speaker 1: and TV. After the break, Let's go to Sicily Bowie.
Speaker 1: When you look back at your quote unquote body of
Speaker 1: work like White, do you notice any kind of thread
Speaker 1: that connects a lot of these stories when you think
Speaker 1: about it, Um, I don't know, me I have a thread,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and they're I mean, it's an idiosyncratic
Speaker 1: body of work and I and I'm proud. I like
Speaker 1: I one thing that I always was like, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to take myself so seriously that I miss out
Speaker 1: on anything like and That's how That's why I did Survivor.
Speaker 1: That's why I did amazing Race. It's why I've taken
Speaker 1: jobs that I don't know. It's like, you know, like
Speaker 1: I always thought that I I mean, if now now
Speaker 1: I do sound like whatever, I just you know, it's
Speaker 1: like I always thought I was talented. I always felt
Speaker 1: like I had some in the offer. I always felt
Speaker 1: like I was, you know, like I like you said
Speaker 1: I was. You know, I've said I'm competitive, like I
Speaker 1: would see peers who like, you know, caught the wave
Speaker 1: and got a lot of like attention and success, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I could do that. I'm better, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm as good or better than those people. And and
Speaker 1: you know, of course that's the that's the that's the
Speaker 1: gumption that you need to get through Hollywood by like
Speaker 1: and so um so. But at the same time, I
Speaker 1: was just like, I'm not gonna be I met people
Speaker 1: early on who had careers that I admired, and a
Speaker 1: lot of them seem miserable or they seem like they
Speaker 1: were really um in a um you know, protective of
Speaker 1: their you know, like they I don't know, they that
Speaker 1: in order to be serious taken seriously, they had to
Speaker 1: kind of have a serious vibe. And it's like we're
Speaker 1: in the we're in the we're in the you know.
Speaker 1: I I think our work is meaningful, but like we
Speaker 1: are in the in the sort of we're in the
Speaker 1: kids section in a sense, know what I mean. We're
Speaker 1: not we're not you know, we're not hearing cancer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not hearing cancer or not in the policy we're
Speaker 1: not policy wants. We're not It's like we are you know,
Speaker 1: we're in the we're in the entertainment section, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. So it's like and so I just
Speaker 1: was like, I just don't I want to. I want
Speaker 1: to be successful and I want people to think I'm talented,
Speaker 1: but I also I want to I want to live
Speaker 1: a life that I look back on and the life
Speaker 1: itself was cool and then and the things I did
Speaker 1: were cool, and it's not just my work. So so
Speaker 1: like I look at those all those different things and
Speaker 1: that it's like it's it's an eclectic it's like it's
Speaker 1: kind of a hot mess, like a bunch of credits,
Speaker 1: but I each one of them. I like I got
Speaker 1: different things out of and and and yeah, I had
Speaker 1: served different purposes for me. But right now you are
Speaker 1: in a very different position, like because I'm sure everyone
Speaker 1: in Hollywood is saying that Mike White he can write
Speaker 1: his own ticket. Now he can kind of do whatever
Speaker 1: he wants, which I think makes you a little uncomfortable. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like this is like it's
Speaker 1: like I'm waking up in Hawaiians like Haiti Kurt is
Speaker 1: here to tell you everything has changed. Everything is I
Speaker 1: feel like your therapist, Like no, well, I I appreciate
Speaker 1: you saying that, and I and I, you know, I
Speaker 1: actually feel like I if that's true. I feel like
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm like somebody who's been ready to
Speaker 1: be at bat for a long time. And I've done it,
Speaker 1: you know, like you know, and I've I've done things.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of it. But like I've it's always been
Speaker 1: swimming upstream to get the financing, to get the actor,
Speaker 1: to get the thing to the you know, like it's
Speaker 1: it's and that's part of the fun, I guess, but
Speaker 1: it's also part it's there's wear and tear. So it's like,
Speaker 1: if it's an easier road to do the things I
Speaker 1: want to do, I'm ready to do more and I
Speaker 1: have more to say, and I, you know, like and
Speaker 1: it's and and this was hard. It took a lot
Speaker 1: out of me, especially this last season. But this is
Speaker 1: what I've always wanted to do and and and and
Speaker 1: so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to do it.
Speaker 1: Are you having fun, Mike? I am having fun. I'm
Speaker 1: having fun talking to you. I'm hearing why I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I've gotten through the season and everyone's you know, chatting up,
Speaker 1: so that's fun. But I also I need to reboot
Speaker 1: a little bit. I don't have a lot of gas
Speaker 1: in the tank, so I need to figure out how
Speaker 1: to whatever unplug and refresh or something. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: this current season of White Lotus, because I'm worried, Mike,
Speaker 1: I'm worried about the characters. I'm White. I'm really worried.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Porscha. I'm really
Speaker 1: worried about Tanya. I'm worried about is it Albie? I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing to us? Mike? Well,
Speaker 1: the fun thing about Yeah, what I'd like about this
Speaker 1: format is that, like I like, I kind of like
Speaker 1: a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the pleasure of this one, and
Speaker 1: certainly this season and last season two, I think is like,
Speaker 1: you know, you hope you create very credible characters, and
Speaker 1: you create a situation that like you're like it passes
Speaker 1: the bullish ship detector to some degree and that and
Speaker 1: then and then just start to like cook up the gap,
Speaker 1: you know, like turn up the heat just so it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like almost like when you're on the
Speaker 1: yeah roller coaster and you're like chi chi ch and
Speaker 1: you're like going up and you're like this is gonna
Speaker 1: go really far down, like we are really going chick.
Speaker 1: So yeah, And I think the finale hopefully will satisfy
Speaker 1: the Catharsis And I mean, yeah, there's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing of
Speaker 1: teeth and it's yes, but but yeah, you should be worried.
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about that story of the woman that
Speaker 1: fell that they threw off the mountain. I also keep
Speaker 1: worrying about the the wife of the the cheesy finance
Speaker 1: guy saying, Oh, you're gonna die here. They're gonna have
Speaker 1: to drag you out of this place. I keep thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: what does that mean? I have my right to pick
Speaker 1: up on some of these things. I mean, well, some
Speaker 1: of them are intentional to build the for the finale,
Speaker 1: and some are a little bit mrrects so that people think, yeah,
Speaker 1: you want to You want people to like feel like
Speaker 1: they're you know, Miss Marple and they've got the clues,
Speaker 1: but you need extra clues. You know, it's not so
Speaker 1: obvious what happens. But I think people I think even
Speaker 1: if you guess you're gonna be surprised, but just how
Speaker 1: it all falls apart um. I love the way you
Speaker 1: use art interchangeably. First of all, obviously you're obsessed with
Speaker 1: kind of those water shots, which I really liked to
Speaker 1: but I love the I love the painting, the artifacts,
Speaker 1: the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, of that
Speaker 1: same porcelain head guy that you keep going back to
Speaker 1: again and again. Tell me your thought process about using
Speaker 1: that as a way to propel the story forward or
Speaker 1: to foreshadow things, or to echo what might be going
Speaker 1: on at the time. Can you tell like that very intimly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. Yeah, well the tested him where I was
Speaker 1: when I got there, I was like, because they're everywhere
Speaker 1: in sicily those heads and the story behind it has
Speaker 1: to and the reason for the whole season was because
Speaker 1: these heads. I was like, because I would go around like,
Speaker 1: these heads are everywhere, and it was about adultery and
Speaker 1: violence and sexual jealousy, and I was like that just
Speaker 1: I had a different idea for the second season. I
Speaker 1: was like, no, we've got to do an operatic like
Speaker 1: itally in sexual jealousy storyline, I mean, and it's like
Speaker 1: that's that's what people want to see anyway. But also
Speaker 1: this is the part of my job that people should
Speaker 1: be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily. I'm
Speaker 1: telling them I'm doing white Lotus. All of the rich
Speaker 1: like Sicilians who have these pilazzos are willing to let
Speaker 1: me come in and like snoop around their house. I
Speaker 1: got to see all these and so like two of
Speaker 1: them ended up in the show. But like you walk
Speaker 1: around and you have no idea that behind this, like
Speaker 1: you know, edifice is like this incredible polazzo that they're
Speaker 1: all there. A lot of them are hidden, It's like
Speaker 1: and then to be able to like get access to
Speaker 1: those and see them, and I was like, well we
Speaker 1: gotta Like so when we would get into these places,
Speaker 1: I was like, we gotta shoot. We gotta just like
Speaker 1: fire hose this down, Like we gotta get every piece
Speaker 1: of art on the walls, like we gotta do push
Speaker 1: ins on all of the you know. So for someone
Speaker 1: who like you know, likes interior, you know whatever, like
Speaker 1: these kind of like classic Max the List, eclectic, like
Speaker 1: you know, like rich, you know, Palazza is like I
Speaker 1: was just like I was in heaven. So I just
Speaker 1: felt like I had to make the most of it.
Speaker 1: And I mean it must have been an extraordinary place
Speaker 1: to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that
Speaker 1: hotel vacant as well? Or tell me about the location.
Speaker 1: I want to go to that hotel? Yeah you should.
Speaker 1: It's it's the Sandamnico Palace, which is like a very
Speaker 1: historical um. It was originally a convent and thenn turned
Speaker 1: into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for quite
Speaker 1: a lot a long time, and Lave and Turo was
Speaker 1: shot there. It's like it's it's a it's amazing because obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, I got we we looked at a lot
Speaker 1: of different hotels and it's just like, first the convent
Speaker 1: part of it just gives it this added kind of
Speaker 1: you know vibe, and then you know, you see these
Speaker 1: terraced hills with all these different you know villas, you
Speaker 1: know that are so classic and European, and and then
Speaker 1: you have the Greek theater on one side, and then
Speaker 1: the Ionian Sea in front, and then the mount now
Speaker 1: which is literally you know, belching smoke half the time.
Speaker 1: And he was like, this is if we're going to
Speaker 1: go to Europe, this is what you go for you
Speaker 1: go for these views. So it's definitely I I highly
Speaker 1: recommend Tarmina and Sicily itself. It's it's like you really
Speaker 1: can't spend enough time there. It's like as each you know,
Speaker 1: it was just after a few days it was like
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, we've done the sightseeing, but like
Speaker 1: it's just like then there's just this like vibe over
Speaker 1: time that just really seduces you. Did you find Luccia
Speaker 1: and Mia in Sicily? No, we we found them in Rome. Uh.
Speaker 1: Simona who plays Lucia is actually from Naples and um
Speaker 1: MIA's from Rome. But we had a great set of
Speaker 1: casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options.
Speaker 1: And those those two and Sabrina and Patria Tory who
Speaker 1: plays the manager, they're all they were all incredible and
Speaker 1: so fun to work with. Yeah, they were fun to watch,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that. And I know that you have
Speaker 1: said that the show satirizes wealthy, white privilege, and you've
Speaker 1: said that your intention was to quote unquote poke the Bear,
Speaker 1: but through a humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike,
Speaker 1: what did you mean, um, well, poke the Bear? I
Speaker 1: don't you know obviously you're I'm satirizing privilege, but you know,
Speaker 1: especially with the first season, I also was poking the
Speaker 1: bear as far as some of the I don't know,
Speaker 1: like I wanted to give voice to both you know,
Speaker 1: the critiques of of the patriarchy and all of these
Speaker 1: things that you know, we we are discussing, you know,
Speaker 1: and have been discussing with fervor the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: but also give voice to the people that are you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, I haven't hearing you know, like
Speaker 1: like some of the conversations that I'm hearing that people
Speaker 1: don't want to say in public but like behind closed doors,
Speaker 1: and try to you know, like not you know, make
Speaker 1: it so it you're kind of walking the line where okay,
Speaker 1: well that's sort of is a fair point, and then like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, but you're saying that because this is you know,
Speaker 1: you're you're defending, you know, you're on your heels, So
Speaker 1: like trying to make it so it's not so such
Speaker 1: a simple, predigested conversation and and and have those conversations
Speaker 1: be um lively and like you know, multi layered, multi
Speaker 1: layered enough that like people feel like, oh they're they're
Speaker 1: being seen and then and it's still challenged and so
Speaker 1: and that was that was what I was trying to do.
Speaker 1: And you know, like and and the fact that like
Speaker 1: people on both sides of some of these arguments, like
Speaker 1: champion the show or also like hated the show, made
Speaker 1: me feel like I did my job. Yeah, so you're
Speaker 1: you're really showing some of those tricky conversations that people
Speaker 1: do have behind closed doors. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: what contributes, Mike to the realness of the show and
Speaker 1: the dialogue that you know, you feel like this is
Speaker 1: what people really are talking about, and that you're not
Speaker 1: following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to be on the
Speaker 1: right side of any issue. Yeah, because I don't even
Speaker 1: I don't even It's like, ultimately, it's like, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's the dramatist job too. It's I don't think
Speaker 1: it's it's a message conveying machine. If I was trying
Speaker 1: to make a message, then I would be communicating in
Speaker 1: a different medium or a different kind of Uh. It's
Speaker 1: really about giving voice of the different people who exist
Speaker 1: in our world and try, you know, and do my
Speaker 1: best to to make it feel like it's a you know,
Speaker 1: a dimensional conversation after the break, why Mike spends so
Speaker 1: much time in the gray areas of human behavior. I
Speaker 1: know that lot of people have taken note that your characters,
Speaker 1: so many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or
Speaker 1: there are certain things you like in certain things you
Speaker 1: really don't like, so you feel conflicted. And I feel
Speaker 1: very conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the
Speaker 1: end of last season, and now I don't dislike her.
Speaker 1: I feel sorry for her because she's quite competitive pathetic,
Speaker 1: but she's also sort of lovable too. Yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge is lovable period,
Speaker 1: and and so she brings the loveability for sure. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I do think it's like I, especially the first season,
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted there to be two tracks, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, her as the underdog who's looking for love
Speaker 1: and dealing with the fact that her mom died and
Speaker 1: you know the pain of that, and so on one
Speaker 1: side you're rooting for her, and then there's this other
Speaker 1: story where she's kind of dangling this carrot over this
Speaker 1: other woman's you know, and future and making her feel
Speaker 1: like there's hope for something and then she's kind of
Speaker 1: a flake. And that just seems very true to life
Speaker 1: to for me to some of these women that I've
Speaker 1: met and or you know man or too about just
Speaker 1: like where you know, they see themselves as a victim
Speaker 1: in some sense and and the savior or savior or
Speaker 1: savior yeah, and and they don't see how that they
Speaker 1: can also be victimizing and that they that they yeah,
Speaker 1: that they they have agency and that they are yeah,
Speaker 1: that that they are somehow blowing it. Let let me
Speaker 1: ask you about some of the other characters in kind
Speaker 1: of a rapid fire way. We talked about Mia and Lucia,
Speaker 1: and we talked about Valentina. Um. Let's talk about Porsche
Speaker 1: and I love this discussion online about Porsche's clothes. Have
Speaker 1: you seen this, Mike, that she dresses like good gen
Speaker 1: Z Threat Store, Like nothing really goes together, like it
Speaker 1: doesn't look good or not. I mean, what do you
Speaker 1: think of all that? It's so funny. Well, a lot
Speaker 1: of the credit goes to um, I mean that was
Speaker 1: her character on the page, But Hailey Lou Richardson, who's
Speaker 1: the actress, and then Alex Bavert, who is our costum designer,
Speaker 1: you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm a little bit like women's fashion
Speaker 1: is not my um go too, but I but I
Speaker 1: but I did weigh in. I did weigh in. I approved,
Speaker 1: I supervised, but I uh but um yeah, I just
Speaker 1: think that you know, to me, Porscha is somebody who
Speaker 1: I see this a lot, and this was something that
Speaker 1: I feel like online I think is the thing that
Speaker 1: I I find interesting is that there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are like rich, you know, like bad bad
Speaker 1: rich people. Rich people are terrible, you know, like it's
Speaker 1: this like this kind of like you know that that
Speaker 1: I that I'm allowed to make the show as long
Speaker 1: as I show how bad rich people are. That the
Speaker 1: moral of the story is that rich people are better something.
Speaker 1: And it's like and and and obviously you know there
Speaker 1: is there's truth to that, like a lot of rich
Speaker 1: people are fighting up the world and so like I
Speaker 1: you know, but but I also you know you and
Speaker 1: so like I guess Porsche was like a vehicle to
Speaker 1: explore how she sees in Tanya all of these bad
Speaker 1: character traits and that she you know, if and if
Speaker 1: she had what Tanya had, she would have her life together,
Speaker 1: and she would be she you know, like she would
Speaker 1: be She wouldn't do it better than Tanya. But you
Speaker 1: see how in her own way she's she is kind
Speaker 1: of lost in the In a similar way, she's actually
Speaker 1: kind of a mini me to Tanya and a fat
Speaker 1: Tanya tells, Porsche, you remind me a lot of myself
Speaker 1: when I was younger. But I also think Porsche is
Speaker 1: very gen Z and that she's sort of a little
Speaker 1: bit lost and just doesn't know what she wants to do.
Speaker 1: She doesn't really have any goals. She's trying to figure
Speaker 1: it out. Did that I mean, do you know young
Speaker 1: people like that that kind of helped shape that character? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do think. I mean again, I don't want to
Speaker 1: get crucified, but I do think I've noticed in this
Speaker 1: younger generation a desire to try on identities and and
Speaker 1: and feel like there's something like, like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: courageous about about identity as a way to express yourself
Speaker 1: through whatever, like through the way you talk about yourself
Speaker 1: or the clothes you wear or whatever. But like, ultimately
Speaker 1: it is very label gazing, and it adds to I
Speaker 1: think adds to um malaise. I think it actually it
Speaker 1: makes your It's like the more you start like yeah,
Speaker 1: like talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines,
Speaker 1: it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve.
Speaker 1: So like I think a little bit of Porsche comes
Speaker 1: through and that I mean, I I you know, like
Speaker 1: I don't want to think that I'm totally you know,
Speaker 1: but like she's just like I want this and I
Speaker 1: don't know if I just want to have filled and
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about
Speaker 1: that that's just yeah, it's maybe it's yeah, maybe it's
Speaker 1: ages of maybe I'm just like I've become the person
Speaker 1: that makes you. But like I just when I was younger,
Speaker 1: it was just like it's to me, I still feel
Speaker 1: like it's like you mean to like move outside of yourself,
Speaker 1: to like find courage and move outside of your own
Speaker 1: you know, it's like your own navel gazing to really
Speaker 1: then fully developed. You know. It's like if you're just
Speaker 1: always looking inside and doing selfies and then calling yourself
Speaker 1: a different thing, and it's all about the closure where
Speaker 1: you know, it's like that that just feels like that's um,
Speaker 1: that's going to be a dead End Road. So that's Porsche.
Speaker 1: And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne.
Speaker 1: I have to say, I think Oprey Plaza is my
Speaker 1: favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual
Speaker 1: state of on we that is now kind of morphed
Speaker 1: into something else all together. And I love what you're
Speaker 1: doing about jealousy with Ethan and uh and and Harper.
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about Harper's character. Well,
Speaker 1: I I Aubrey is a friend of mine and I
Speaker 1: wanted to get her in the show, So a little
Speaker 1: bit of it started with just like trying you know,
Speaker 1: Aubrey is a very complicated, interesting person and and but
Speaker 1: she's kind of known for this sort of dead like
Speaker 1: the way she comes in at the beginning is kind
Speaker 1: of like maybe the way people see her or what
Speaker 1: thing they think that she's gonna be if she joins
Speaker 1: the white lotus world, but then start to show these
Speaker 1: other kind of more vulnerable sides and that her toughness
Speaker 1: is a little bit of a front and and um,
Speaker 1: but I liked, you know, like what I was trying
Speaker 1: to do with that whole storyline is, you know, it
Speaker 1: has to do with it kind of what Brad status
Speaker 1: was as far as status, but like with secondly, like
Speaker 1: whether we're always comparing ourselves in our relationship to other
Speaker 1: people's relationships and what they have and what they it
Speaker 1: seems like they you know, like what they do better,
Speaker 1: what they do worse? And how how um? And I
Speaker 1: was kind of playing a little bit at the beginning
Speaker 1: where it's like you think, Okay, here's atar like NPR
Speaker 1: listening like you know, liberal, like you know, like these
Speaker 1: are the good guys that are gonna relate to. And
Speaker 1: then this other couple they're so vacuous and you know,
Speaker 1: it's like but then kind of playing a little bit
Speaker 1: with which is maybe that other couple is like dysfunctional
Speaker 1: and crazy. It's like, well they seem to be having
Speaker 1: more fun, like you know, like that that that maybe
Speaker 1: you know, like maybe it's not as as simple as
Speaker 1: all of that. And and I don't want to give
Speaker 1: away the ending, but yeah, how it all, How it
Speaker 1: all lands is kind of a little bit of insight
Speaker 1: into what I'm trying to I'm not saying, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected. I
Speaker 1: guess it also seems to be a bit of a
Speaker 1: commentary on tech and finance bros. Mm hmm, yeah, Well
Speaker 1: I just think new money, new money status um competition um,
Speaker 1: that weird sort of dance you play when you're financially
Speaker 1: dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is sort
Speaker 1: of uh needs Ethan because he's made a boatload of
Speaker 1: money in tech, right, there's something weird about that dynamic. Well,
Speaker 1: I definitely I as a got a guy, I've been
Speaker 1: privy to lots of conversations over the years. I live
Speaker 1: like next to Brentwood, so there's just like you know,
Speaker 1: the Brentwood country Mark where like lawyers and finance people
Speaker 1: and whatever like people in our my industry or whatever,
Speaker 1: and how they how their buddies. But like even in
Speaker 1: the in every conversation, you just sense this peacocking and
Speaker 1: like they're trying to figure out like where they stand
Speaker 1: as far as who's making them more money, you know,
Speaker 1: who makes like where Yeah, it's uh and so that's
Speaker 1: always very funny to me because I I whatever and
Speaker 1: it's yeah, so yeah, I was kind of playing with
Speaker 1: like yeah, they're friends, but like are they friends? Like
Speaker 1: what are they? Like? Like the competition is so heavy
Speaker 1: that it's just like can they ever really be friends?
Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, I find that whole sort of forsome fascinating,
Speaker 1: and I love f Murray Abraham, which I mean, by
Speaker 1: the way, what a what a feather in your cap
Speaker 1: to get him to be in White Lotus. And then
Speaker 1: you've got from the Sopranos, You've got Michael Imperial. Imperial
Speaker 1: can help me with that, Michael Imperioli. Yeah, and who
Speaker 1: plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco who
Speaker 1: plays Albi. Uh so you have these three generations of
Speaker 1: Italian Americans. Yeah, so yeah. Uh well, first of all, yes,
Speaker 1: Murray and Michael are I'm huge I was huge fans
Speaker 1: of prior and then working with them even more so. Uh,
Speaker 1: Murray is like, you know, he's I think he's eighty
Speaker 1: two years old, and he's so still like enamored with
Speaker 1: the process and acting and storytelling and it's inspiring. And
Speaker 1: Michael is one of the most He's in the pantheon
Speaker 1: of like the easiest, most like generous actors I've ever
Speaker 1: worked with. So like, those two are incredible. And then
Speaker 1: of course Adam to Mark was one of the sweetest kids,
Speaker 1: so like they were a great group, but like contextually
Speaker 1: as far as the ideas of that, I just feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted you know, it's kind of getting
Speaker 1: into male sexuality and desire and male role, you know,
Speaker 1: the role like you know, men's roles and when it
Speaker 1: comes to romance and how they deal with the women,
Speaker 1: and and just voicing the different um generational attitudes in
Speaker 1: a kind of classic way. Uh, and and how they're
Speaker 1: all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating
Speaker 1: with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex
Speaker 1: and um uh and the interactions with women, that they're
Speaker 1: all kind of trapped in a certain sense. To Derek,
Speaker 1: who works on this podcast, who's one of the producers,
Speaker 1: talked about how this season portrays a wide variety of
Speaker 1: sexual relationships and entanglements and you were just talking about sex,
Speaker 1: just as the opening title sequence portrays uh increasing debauchery
Speaker 1: in the art as the rollicking theme song plays, the
Speaker 1: show itself feels like it's revealing more and more about
Speaker 1: the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress it
Speaker 1: or given to it or both. Even these are Derek's observations,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious what you think of that, and sort
Speaker 1: of how you were trying to portray different just different
Speaker 1: kinds of relationships, and for example, you portray sex workers,
Speaker 1: you know, Lucia and Me a very differently than kind
Speaker 1: of what we normally see in TV, books or movies. Well, I,
Speaker 1: you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, you know,
Speaker 1: it should start with these kind of pretty you know,
Speaker 1: like like you're going into a palazzo and the beautiful walls,
Speaker 1: and then you start seeing little things in the corners
Speaker 1: and you realize there's this kind of mischievous or even
Speaker 1: kind of creeper pervy like sexual things that are happening
Speaker 1: in the margins. And then by the end of the
Speaker 1: credit sequence, it's almost like a Bosch painting of like
Speaker 1: just you know in the and where you know, the
Speaker 1: carnality of it and in the desire of it is
Speaker 1: is like front and center. And I felt like that
Speaker 1: with the season two, which is like you start off
Speaker 1: and it's like you a little bit of these repressed
Speaker 1: people trying to like you know, figure out, like you know,
Speaker 1: how to have a good vacation, and that like being
Speaker 1: in the in the in sight to of Sicily and
Speaker 1: in this kind of a little crucible that like the
Speaker 1: desire and you start seeing desire and everyone and it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it becomes a very horny show. And I just felt
Speaker 1: like it was like especially like you know, like and
Speaker 1: as far as like yeah, I mean and I yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I I don't. I don't think I'll always
Speaker 1: write stories like this. It is not certainly my wheelhouse
Speaker 1: like directing scenes of like intimacy between people and like
Speaker 1: getting people nude and stuff. It's just like I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, like I was like, this is not something
Speaker 1: that I was like, whatever you guys want to do,
Speaker 1: like what's thankfully you know, when you hire actors that
Speaker 1: are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am, so
Speaker 1: like they're like you want me to take my top off?
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, sure if that's good, You sure that's okay? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So like so yeah, so that was but I and I, um,
Speaker 1: but I do feel like it was like it's fun
Speaker 1: to show I actually think it's fun to show women
Speaker 1: horny horny women, because I feel like that sometimes is
Speaker 1: something that like, you know, a lot of times in
Speaker 1: in in drama, it's like they're either victimized or virginal
Speaker 1: or like I don't know, it's there or is it
Speaker 1: or or it's like this kind of like you know, um,
Speaker 1: like they'll talk it's like sex in the city. It's
Speaker 1: like it's it's very like talky, but like you know
Speaker 1: where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the um
Speaker 1: you know. It's like and you know, to me, that
Speaker 1: just feels true to life in a way. I guess
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to put it, but anyway,
Speaker 1: so um so yeah, So I just thought it was like,
Speaker 1: let's do sex, let's just go all in and and
Speaker 1: that was kind of the I was like, if we're
Speaker 1: gonna go all in, it's like by the end, you
Speaker 1: just want to feel like, yeah, the animal in them,
Speaker 1: in each of these um human characters. So this is
Speaker 1: the big question. Is there going to be a white
Speaker 1: it is three? Is there going to be a third season? Yes,
Speaker 1: they picked us up for a third season, and yeah
Speaker 1: where Mike, where, Well, I want to go to Asia,
Speaker 1: That's what I think. Look, I mean it feels like,
Speaker 1: you know, you started like America, then you do Europe.
Speaker 1: It feels like the next one would be I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know why that feels that. It's just like
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think like like, yeah, where does Katie
Speaker 1: current go on vacation? Where you tell me? Actually, I
Speaker 1: you know what. I ran into you once on vacation
Speaker 1: where I was in Yeah, I was in Berlin, staying
Speaker 1: at a classic old hotel in the middle Berlin, and
Speaker 1: I forget the name of it, and you were staying
Speaker 1: there at the same time with I ran into you.
Speaker 1: I ran I think we were like there the same
Speaker 1: days or whatever, because I ran into you. You were
Speaker 1: very friendly all you seem like you're having a good time.
Speaker 1: I was with my husband, who still good great, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys. I don't know if you were there for
Speaker 1: work or vacation or whatever, but you were. We were
Speaker 1: there for vacation. And you know, Mike husband John is
Speaker 1: a huge Survivor nut. I mean, he has seen every season.
Speaker 1: He finds it fascinating, so he loves you from Survivor.
Speaker 1: That's cool. I think it was prior to me during
Speaker 1: Survivor you were it might I think it was what
Speaker 1: didn't I got married in so it was probably it
Speaker 1: was like after that it was like, yeah it was
Speaker 1: sixteen maybe, yeah, I did survive Okay, Well now here
Speaker 1: you seemed very um, Yeah, you seem like you had
Speaker 1: happy energy. I liked I liked you from just the vibe.
Speaker 1: That's so nice? Well is I don't want to spoil
Speaker 1: the finale, but do you think we'll see Tanya in
Speaker 1: the third season? I love well, I love, I love
Speaker 1: writing Tanya and I love I love We're going to Jennifer,
Speaker 1: So definitely could be. You can't tell me. If you tell,
Speaker 1: do you, you'd have to kill me, right, Mike, Well,
Speaker 1: what do you mean you want? Well, you never know.
Speaker 1: Could be I'm not telling you, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to ruin it. A huge thank you to my guests,
Speaker 1: Mike White. I imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday,
Speaker 1: December eleven for the finale to find out who makes
Speaker 1: it out of the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever
Speaker 1: you're listening to this, Happy Benjene. Next Question with Katie
Speaker 1: Kirk is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
Speaker 1: Kurk Media. The executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz.
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements
Speaker 1: and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by
Speaker 1: Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to
Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go
Speaker 1: to Katie Couric dot com. You can also find me
Speaker 1: at Katie correct on Instagram and all my social media channels.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.