WEBVTT - Visiting ‘The White Lotus’ with creator Mike White 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.480 Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question. 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.000 I am super psyched you guys, because my guest today 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.240 is the creator of the show everyone is talking about 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.759 The White Lotus. I'm obsessed. In its second season, the 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.480 series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and the people 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.960 who work at a stunning seaside resort in Sicily. Welcome 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.880 to the White Lotus. I am Valentina, the roysorts manager. 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.320 How is it both right? It was? I mean, I'm 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.920 impressed that you're even here. Why are you impressed? It's 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.760 a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old. No, anyway, 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.760 Isabella here, we'll take you up to the account and 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.400 bring you to your your beautiful groom and after you 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:55.840 a glass of prof thank you. Before the luxe world 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.720 of The White Lotus, Mike White spent much of his 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:04.840 time on The Proof Are creating characters who were two loners, weirdos, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.720 and wanderers in movies like Chuck and Buck, The Year 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.600 of the Dog with Molly Shannon, The Good Girl with 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.640 Jennifer Anniston, and School of Rock with Jack Black, popular 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.720 movies in their own right, but nothing like The Mean 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:25.759 producing headline driving conspiracy filled chatter surrounding the White lotus. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.240 It seems like it's a new, slightly uncomfortable position for 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.160 Mike to be in. I see myself as an underdog 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.839 and I and I'm always like that, Like I'm always 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.120 going to see myself as like somebody who has to 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.240 prove something. So like, even in success, I still feel 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.280 like I don't know, Yeah, I'm not. I don't feel 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.240 like an impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.320 like you know, I slipped in through the side door 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:54.440 or something. Today we dive into all of it, the 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.200 making of the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.559 Mike's childhood, and how he really feels about his newfound fame. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.760 So let me just first start by asking what does 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:14.200 it feel like to be Mike White these days? Well? 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:20.320 What a question? I uh, you know. I we honestly 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:24.160 just finished the final episode. We had a very crazy 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.360 shooting schedule that because of COVID and because of weather 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.200 and Italy and a lot of different reasons, we went 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.160 over our shoot and so I thought HBO would give 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.399 us a little break and let us air later than 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.200 what we were expecting, And instead they were like we 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.120 need it when we need it, and so it cut 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.880 into our post. So I was editing and finishing the 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.280 show up until like ten days ago. So I've just 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.359 been like, I'm I'm living in Hawaii right now for 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.200 tax reasons. There's a good incentive for them to do 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.480 the post here, which is great. But I soa I've 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.440 been kind of in a bubble. I'm just been finishing 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:06.079 the show, uh, living on an island, and so yeah, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.000 it's I don't know, I don't I don't know what 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.920 it's like to but it, but it doesn't I'm not 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.520 getting It's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.440 around l A and like getting a high five from 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.400 people or anything like that. So it's it's it, but 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.080 I'm but I'm excited that it's sentence that that people 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.840 are watching the show and liking it, and I'm definitely 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.680 getting that. But it's but it's just pretty I'm still 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.720 kind of living on an island and living in a bubble. Well. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.359 Having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. I mean 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.400 you are sort of the envy of everyone in Hollywood, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.120 and this is something that you've talked about kind of 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.920 willingly in an article you did in in Vulture. You 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.800 talked about Hollywood, Who's up, Who's down, kind of how 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.560 people are all envious of one another and that you're 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.760 uber competitive. So have you been have you said all that, Mike, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.440 have you been able to take a moment and it's 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:06.360 kind of say the bomb? Oh my god, No, no 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.360 that's not me, but but yes, I I am. I'm 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.760 you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like i'm you know, 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.400 I'm fifty two years old, and I've been doing this 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.640 since I was twenty two years old, and so and 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:22.440 I've had, you know, a lot of things made, and 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.120 a lot of things that I thought were successful, but 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.159 not at this yeah, with this kind of reaction. And 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.600 so I just sort of feel like to use the like, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.080 since I'm in Hawaii, like an analogy that fits here, 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:35.880 which is like I feel like I'm a surfer who's 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.479 been out in the ocean for a long time and 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.480 like I caught a wave. I don't know why this wave, 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.919 but like you know, obviously I I'm old enough and 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.920 have had a long enough career to see it as yeah, 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.719 a blessing and but also something that you can't you know, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.760 I I would never try to chase this reaction because 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.480 I just it's just it's just you just never know 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.520 what's gonna yeah, what people are gonna respond to. So 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.600 I'm excited. I'll take your word for it that that's that. 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.080 It's it's that, Yeah, I don't know. I'm obviously I'm happy. 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.000 It's like I mean, I I was like at the 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.200 age where I was just like can I keep doing? 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.040 You know, like it was like maybe the old Gray 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:19.880 Mary what she used to be, And I'm gonna like 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:21.920 so like it's nice to have a little like uh, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.640 it's it's it's definitely fun. I'm very excited, but I 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.440 don't know whatever. Well, let's talk about the genesis of 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.200 White lotus um. I was at a party and I 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.960 heard from a couple of Hollywood types that HBO had 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.960 access to a hotel that was empty in Maui during 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.320 COVID and came to you and said, hey, Mike White, 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.640 can you write a show that takes place in a hotel? 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.839 Is that how it started? It? Kind of? It definitely 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.000 was like they need they had a lot of projects 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.119 that had fallen apart because of COVID, and so they 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.080 just they knew why I was kind of fast and 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.240 that like I was good with dialogue, and that like 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.120 maybe a show that was very that I could write 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.919 a show in a bubble that was like that would 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.280 maybe be immune from some of the COVID uh issues 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.640 that they had come upon. And so so they asked 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:16.960 me to do it, like can you come up with 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.000 a bubble show? But they didn't have a I was like, 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.640 it was my idea to do it in a hotel. 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.159 And I I was like, and I'm you know, I 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.560 have a place in Kuaie and I'm like, and I 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:29.960 knew that there were all these hotels that were just 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.520 yeah defunct and they were just head shut down because 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.400 of COVID, And I was like, we could grab one 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.920 of those hotels in bed in Hawaii. But they didn't 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:38.720 even really want us to go to Hawaii because that 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:43.760 was already to um treacherous potential issues with COVID. They 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:45.640 wanted us like they probably would have been having even 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.839 found like a hotel and like Lancaster, like you know 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.280 across the street from Casey Boys's house or something, right, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.200 So like so yeah, I just um uh, so yeah, 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.040 I had to push for Hawaii. But yeah, it was 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.839 kind of a mix a mix of that, and tell 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.640 me a little bit about how you were inspired to 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.479 write really both seasons, but let's start with the first. 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.120 I mean, when you sit down to write this, Mike, 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.840 what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.400 of a big broad question, but I'm just curious. You've 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:19.080 got a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:24.280 decide I want to show class differences. I wanted to 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.480 show really interesting characters. I think one of the things, 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.480 I one of many things I love about this show 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:35.440 is it feels very current. You know, sometimes things get 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.400 made and they come out a couple of years later 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.760 or even a year later, and they don't feel oh 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.240 karent or of the moment. And I think White Load 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:51.120 has felt so tuned into current sensibilities. So just talk 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.520 to me a little bit about your thought process when 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.560 you put a finger to keyboard. Are you talking about 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.200 like the like the first season? Yeah, sure, and we'll 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.640 talk about the second. Yeah. The first season it was 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.480 I I you know, I've spent a lot of time 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.040 in Hawaii, so you know, some of and a lot 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.760 of the in Hawaii, there's definitely like two classes. There's 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.040 the you know, the tourists and the moneyed people who 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.440 come and like you know, have their vacations here. And 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.360 then there's the service class of people who you know, 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.600 can be at any you know, some of them are 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.840 do very well financially, but they're all servicing these tourists, 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.440 and so you you know, if you hear long enough, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.080 you get like this. You know, the I obviously know 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.240 the tourist side of it because I've been there, and 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:40.800 I you know, it's like and a lot of my 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:42.840 friends who visit, you know, so I get that part 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.400 of it, but they also you know, the service side 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.520 of it. And I just felt like, you know, there's 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.440 something about doing you know, because obviously Hotel or like 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.440 Fantasy Island, you think Love Vote, Like there's like there's 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.959 like a history of these kind of shows in this 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.719 kind of you know, trying to genre exactly, but to 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.040 do something that is a little bit more well observed, 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.080 and that kind of gets it. You know. I just 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:09.320 thought it was like an interesting about how money, who 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.160 has the money impacts relationships both obviously from the server 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.120 and the you know, customer, but also you know, the 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.640 husband and the wife and the father and the child 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.160 and and and so it just felt like maybe as 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.679 a theme that seemed rich, and so that was kind 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.000 of initial impulse because I was like, we're gonna be 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.640 in a hotel. You know, nobody can leave. It's kind 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.920 of has to be a crucible everyone, you know, And 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.440 so yeah, it kind of built out from there. And 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.199 then it was just like years of maybe years of 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.120 too much being online and like Twitter speak and like 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:41.720 it was just like I was like, like I would 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.320 just started freestyling as far as just like trying to 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.120 get at some of the I don't know the kind 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.760 of contemporary language and stuff like that. It seems to 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:55.280 me you're almost like a an anthropologist kind of discovering 0:09:55.559 --> 0:10:00.080 and exposing human behavior. And I when I watch I 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.400 wonder how much of this did Mike learn from being 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.880 on reality shows how people act? Because obviously you were 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.360 in Survivor. On Survivor, I understand you're a good friend 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.480 of Jeff Probes. Do you love reality television? You were 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.520 on the Amazing Race with your dad. So did some 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.840 of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus? 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.679 Am I getting too weird on these questions? No? Not 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.080 at all. I I mean I actually what I loved 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.320 when I when I you know, because I was obviously 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.679 a writer before the big reality boom, which I think 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:38.160 started like in two thousand ish. Um. And then uh 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.800 but like you know, you show like Survivor came along 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.920 and you were like, wow, it was showing people, you know, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.920 one minute they would be very irritating or very petty, 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.559 and then the next minute they would be very um, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.440 vulnerable and your heart goes out to them, and then 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.599 they could be courageous, and I don't know, it was 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.320 just like you would see these these I mean because 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.640 they were people. It was like fully dimensional humans. And 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:06.720 even though maybe the format could be formula, uh, there 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:08.800 was something I just as a writer, I was like, 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.640 this is this is you know, this this makes you 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:13.920 want to raise your game as far as like when 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.800 you are creating characters that people are watching, because it 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.320 felt like they were always surprising and you were you know, 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:25.120 you just you There wasn't some internal integrity obviously, but 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.480 there was also all of these colors and so it 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.120 I've always wanted to try to write characters that could match, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.240 you know, some of the great you know, personalities that 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.679 you see in reality TV. So yeah, I do think 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.760 that's a that's a part of it. And I just 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.199 think when I was very young, starting very early, I 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.200 was I was always um, you know, I had Sam 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.880 Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.160 her son and I loved her, and so it was 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.040 the first time that I realized, oh, people were play rights. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.080 So very early on I was writing little plays and so, like, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.680 I've always listened, and I've always been interested in how 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.960 people talk, because I've always thought about things in terms 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.520 of dialogue, and then also how what they say about 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.920 themselves doesn't always necessarily match what they think and doesn't 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.680 always match what they are going to do, and so 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.200 that's always been interesting to me, and so I've always 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.080 been kind of an observer of of that. I guess 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.160 I think your childhood, though, in addition to being taught 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.120 by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which is a 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.600 cool little fact at Trivia fact Um, you grew up 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:37.000 in an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:42.640 always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike, Well, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.360 my parents were very loving and I loved. I had 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:50.719 a very nurturing, positive, um nuclear family. My dad was 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.680 a minister, and we were part of a bigger, kind 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:58.280 of more evangelical religious community, and it was there that 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.800 community where it was death really felt. I always felt 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.880 a little alien. I never really drunk the kool aid, 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.000 as they say, and I I always yeah, it was 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.680 there where you I think that I, you know, some 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.800 of the you know, part of drama is is yeah, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.320 getting past then, you know, the facade and trying to 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.160 see what people really do and what people really are like, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.760 but beyond what they say they do. And I think 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:28.920 there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of those 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.720 smaller evangelical communities about you know, certainly around sex and 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.480 around how people you know, think about you know, what 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.560 the motivations for behavior are and stuff, and so I 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.120 I have so it always I always felt like I 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.560 was like I always wanted to know. I was like, 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.720 what's the what's the real you know, like I've always 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.679 been like, yeah, interested in like what really how what 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.120 people do and how that that's sometimes not really in 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.960 line with how they present themselves. I think that shows 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:59.920 up in a lot of your work, Mike. I was 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:06.199 rewatching Brad's status, and I think that was very effective 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.520 in terms of this inner turmoil brad a k ah 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:15.840 Ben Stiller is experiencing, comparing him his station in life 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.520 to all of his college friends who were doing much better. 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:26.120 And I think that external internal conflict is something it 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.720 seems to me that you you go back to. And 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.080 I read that when you were eleven, your dad came 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.800 out to your family. He was a minister, as you mentioned, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.480 but also a gross writer for people like Jerry Fallwell 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.920 and Tammy Baker, and you once said finding out about 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.720 your dad's sexuality is quote the key to everything I write. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.880 How so well just in the sense of what I 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.320 was just talking about, which is, you know, uh, it's 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.360 a big run to be pulled from under you where 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.120 you know, you've think your family is this thing, and 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.600 your dad is this thing, and he's a minister, and 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.760 then you realize there's this other, whole other side, which 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.200 isn't necessarily a dark side, it's just a truth. And 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.720 the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.480 be in the world. And and so I think, you know, 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:24.880 exploring that and and and and I think that that, yeah, 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.680 that just just to me, it just you know, obviously 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.960 it hit home in a literal way, just that you know, 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.840 we are more complicated than we present ourselves, and that 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.480 we put are certain face to our community, and that 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.600 that maybe in drama and showing some of that. Obviously 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.880 there's a titillation part of it, but then there's like 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.600 maybe some kind of solace to know that, like everybody 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.600 is grappling with this, like that the person that we 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.760 want to be and the person that the world wants 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.640 us to be, we're not always that and that's okay 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.880 and that's human and and that kind of thing. You 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.880 went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said you finally 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:08.480 found your people there. So how did Wesleyan affect you, 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.680 not only as a person but as a writer. Well, 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.280 I I was in a kind of more homogeneous community 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.480 growing up in high school, you know, and grade school, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.840 and so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.400 very open minded liberal community in general, and also just 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.960 these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:34.920 just like I just felt like I was like like 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:36.600 behind the curve, you know. I was kind of a 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.360 self taught. I mean, I was just I mean I 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.120 went to a good school, but it was like as 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.160 far as culture and stuff, I was just I was, 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.920 you know, I like, I had my own like subscription 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.480 to the New Yorker for I was, I was just 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.760 trying to find my way through the culture. And so, 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:52.360 like I would, I went to Wesley and all these 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:53.720 you know, a lot of I mean, it was a 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.080 lot of New York Jewish kids who are like very 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.440 like fully baked and fully like you know, you know, 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.560 like new fancy people. And I was just like I 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.720 kind of was just I felt like a rube. But 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.920 I got but I was so enamored by the yeah, 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.080 the whole vibe there and and still to this day, 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.360 a lot of those kids I met there are are 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.440 my my friend group. And when you when you graduated 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.520 from Wesleyan, were you really interested in play writing or 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.360 just writing in general? Well, I wanted to be a playwright. 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.760 I wanted to be Sam Shepherd. I went from California 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.119 to Yeah, to Wesley and and I was like I 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.000 didn't have socks and I didn't realize how cold it 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.800 was back East. I was like, this is too cold 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.720 for me. Like I so I was like, I was like, 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.440 my plan was to go to New York was starting playwright. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.320 But I was like, I don't know if I could 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.040 handle this weather, I was like, so, I like kind 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:50.880 of I fell into the wrong crowd and came back 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:55.399 to l A I was started writing for for movies 0:17:55.440 --> 0:18:00.399 and TV. After the break, Let's go to Sicily Bowie. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.879 When you look back at your quote unquote body of 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:17.879 work like White, do you notice any kind of thread 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.840 that connects a lot of these stories when you think 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:27.800 about it, Um, I don't know, me I have a thread, 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.840 I don't know, and they're I mean, it's an idiosyncratic 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.600 body of work and I and I'm proud. I like 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.560 I one thing that I always was like, I'm not 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.760 going to take myself so seriously that I miss out 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.399 on anything like and That's how That's why I did Survivor. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.639 That's why I did amazing Race. It's why I've taken 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.800 jobs that I don't know. It's like, you know, like 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:54.160 I always thought that I I mean, if now now 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.680 I do sound like whatever, I just you know, it's 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.480 like I always thought I was talented. I always felt 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.480 like I had some in the offer. I always felt 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.760 like I was, you know, like I like you said 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.159 I was. You know, I've said I'm competitive, like I 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.240 would see peers who like, you know, caught the wave 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.560 and got a lot of like attention and success, and 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.800 I was like, I could do that. I'm better, I'm 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.320 I'm as good or better than those people. And and 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.600 you know, of course that's the that's the that's the 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.840 gumption that you need to get through Hollywood by like 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.760 and so um so. But at the same time, I 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.439 was just like, I'm not gonna be I met people 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.879 early on who had careers that I admired, and a 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.199 lot of them seem miserable or they seem like they 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.439 were really um in a um you know, protective of 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.720 their you know, like they I don't know, they that 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.600 in order to be serious taken seriously, they had to 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.840 kind of have a serious vibe. And it's like we're 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.359 in the we're in the we're in the you know. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.479 I I think our work is meaningful, but like we 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:58.440 are in the in the sort of we're in the 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.720 kids section in a sense, know what I mean. We're 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.840 not we're not you know, we're not hearing cancer. Yeah, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.880 we're not hearing cancer or not in the policy we're 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.359 not policy wants. We're not It's like we are you know, 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.119 we're in the we're in the entertainment section, you know 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.159 what I mean. So it's like and so I just 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.680 was like, I just don't I want to. I want 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.840 to be successful and I want people to think I'm talented, 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.880 but I also I want to I want to live 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.520 a life that I look back on and the life 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.359 itself was cool and then and the things I did 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.359 were cool, and it's not just my work. So so 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.439 like I look at those all those different things and 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.280 that it's like it's it's an eclectic it's like it's 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.360 kind of a hot mess, like a bunch of credits, 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.359 but I each one of them. I like I got 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.800 different things out of and and and yeah, I had 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.560 served different purposes for me. But right now you are 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.720 in a very different position, like because I'm sure everyone 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.240 in Hollywood is saying that Mike White he can write 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.520 his own ticket. Now he can kind of do whatever 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:04.240 he wants, which I think makes you a little uncomfortable. Well, 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.920 I don't know. I feel like this is like it's 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.520 like I'm waking up in Hawaiians like Haiti Kurt is 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.600 here to tell you everything has changed. Everything is I 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:20.159 feel like your therapist, Like no, well, I I appreciate 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.080 you saying that, and I and I, you know, I 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.280 actually feel like I if that's true. I feel like 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.320 I feel like I'm like somebody who's been ready to 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.760 be at bat for a long time. And I've done it, 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.280 you know, like you know, and I've I've done things. 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.600 I'm proud of it. But like I've it's always been 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.080 swimming upstream to get the financing, to get the actor, 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:43.800 to get the thing to the you know, like it's 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.119 it's and that's part of the fun, I guess, but 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.000 it's also part it's there's wear and tear. So it's like, 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.800 if it's an easier road to do the things I 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.359 want to do, I'm ready to do more and I 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.639 have more to say, and I, you know, like and 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.080 it's and and this was hard. It took a lot 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.520 out of me, especially this last season. But this is 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.000 what I've always wanted to do and and and and 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.760 so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to do it. 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.120 Are you having fun, Mike? I am having fun. I'm 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.000 having fun talking to you. I'm hearing why I'm you know, 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.040 I've gotten through the season and everyone's you know, chatting up, 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.920 so that's fun. But I also I need to reboot 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.040 a little bit. I don't have a lot of gas 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.400 in the tank, so I need to figure out how 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:35.040 to whatever unplug and refresh or something. Let's talk about 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.960 this current season of White Lotus, because I'm worried, Mike, 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.480 I'm worried about the characters. I'm White. I'm really worried. 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.840 I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Porscha. I'm really 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:53.920 worried about Tanya. I'm worried about is it Albie? I mean, 0:22:54.280 --> 0:23:00.360 I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing to us? Mike? Well, 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:02.720 the fun thing about Yeah, what I'd like about this 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:04.959 format is that, like I like, I kind of like 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:09.040 a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun. Well, 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:13.000 you know, I think the pleasure of this one, and 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.240 certainly this season and last season two, I think is like, 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.880 you know, you hope you create very credible characters, and 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:23.800 you create a situation that like you're like it passes 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:28.040 the bullish ship detector to some degree and that and 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.800 then and then just start to like cook up the gap, 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.280 you know, like turn up the heat just so it's like, 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:36.920 you know, it's like almost like when you're on the 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.520 yeah roller coaster and you're like chi chi ch and 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:41.200 you're like going up and you're like this is gonna 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.600 go really far down, like we are really going chick. 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.840 So yeah, And I think the finale hopefully will satisfy 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.960 the Catharsis And I mean, yeah, there's gonna be a 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:56.639 lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing of 0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:00.879 teeth and it's yes, but but yeah, you should be worried. 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.159 I keep thinking about that story of the woman that 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:09.800 fell that they threw off the mountain. I also keep 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:15.760 worrying about the the wife of the the cheesy finance 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:20.479 guy saying, Oh, you're gonna die here. They're gonna have 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:24.439 to drag you out of this place. I keep thinking, oh, 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:28.200 what does that mean? I have my right to pick 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:30.959 up on some of these things. I mean, well, some 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.520 of them are intentional to build the for the finale, 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:38.160 and some are a little bit mrrects so that people think, yeah, 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:40.280 you want to You want people to like feel like 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:43.040 they're you know, Miss Marple and they've got the clues, 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:47.359 but you need extra clues. You know, it's not so 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:50.359 obvious what happens. But I think people I think even 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:54.720 if you guess you're gonna be surprised, but just how 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:58.720 it all falls apart um. I love the way you 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:02.800 use art interchangeably. First of all, obviously you're obsessed with 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.320 kind of those water shots, which I really liked to 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.439 but I love the I love the painting, the artifacts, 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:14.879 the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, of that 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:18.639 same porcelain head guy that you keep going back to 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:22.320 again and again. Tell me your thought process about using 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.800 that as a way to propel the story forward or 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:29.120 to foreshadow things, or to echo what might be going 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:34.119 on at the time. Can you tell like that very intimly. Yeah, 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:36.520 that's awesome. Yeah, well the tested him where I was 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:38.800 when I got there, I was like, because they're everywhere 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:42.840 in sicily those heads and the story behind it has 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.560 to and the reason for the whole season was because 0:25:45.640 --> 0:25:48.159 these heads. I was like, because I would go around like, 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:51.159 these heads are everywhere, and it was about adultery and 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:54.600 violence and sexual jealousy, and I was like that just 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:56.760 I had a different idea for the second season. I 0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:59.320 was like, no, we've got to do an operatic like 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:03.679 itally in sexual jealousy storyline, I mean, and it's like 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:06.919 that's that's what people want to see anyway. But also 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:09.800 this is the part of my job that people should 0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:12.239 be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily. I'm 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:15.320 telling them I'm doing white Lotus. All of the rich 0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:20.120 like Sicilians who have these pilazzos are willing to let 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:23.359 me come in and like snoop around their house. I 0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:25.399 got to see all these and so like two of 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:27.800 them ended up in the show. But like you walk 0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:30.080 around and you have no idea that behind this, like 0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:35.280 you know, edifice is like this incredible polazzo that they're 0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:37.280 all there. A lot of them are hidden, It's like 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.000 and then to be able to like get access to 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:41.679 those and see them, and I was like, well we 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:43.959 gotta Like so when we would get into these places, 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:45.760 I was like, we gotta shoot. We gotta just like 0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.680 fire hose this down, Like we gotta get every piece 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:51.240 of art on the walls, like we gotta do push 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:54.040 ins on all of the you know. So for someone 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:57.240 who like you know, likes interior, you know whatever, like 0:26:57.400 --> 0:27:01.720 these kind of like classic Max the List, eclectic, like 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:04.399 you know, like rich, you know, Palazza is like I 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:06.000 was just like I was in heaven. So I just 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:07.719 felt like I had to make the most of it. 0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:10.600 And I mean it must have been an extraordinary place 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:13.520 to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:17.840 hotel vacant as well? Or tell me about the location. 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:20.439 I want to go to that hotel? Yeah you should. 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:23.840 It's it's the Sandamnico Palace, which is like a very 0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:27.440 historical um. It was originally a convent and thenn turned 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:29.240 into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for quite 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.560 a lot a long time, and Lave and Turo was 0:27:31.640 --> 0:27:35.919 shot there. It's like it's it's a it's amazing because obviously, 0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:37.800 you know, I got we we looked at a lot 0:27:37.840 --> 0:27:40.000 of different hotels and it's just like, first the convent 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:42.679 part of it just gives it this added kind of 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:46.240 you know vibe, and then you know, you see these 0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:50.280 terraced hills with all these different you know villas, you 0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:53.400 know that are so classic and European, and and then 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:56.280 you have the Greek theater on one side, and then 0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:58.880 the Ionian Sea in front, and then the mount now 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:02.080 which is literally you know, belching smoke half the time. 0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:04.440 And he was like, this is if we're going to 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:06.359 go to Europe, this is what you go for you 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:09.080 go for these views. So it's definitely I I highly 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:14.200 recommend Tarmina and Sicily itself. It's it's like you really 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.159 can't spend enough time there. It's like as each you know, 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:19.080 it was just after a few days it was like 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:21.679 I was like, Okay, we've done the sightseeing, but like 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:24.040 it's just like then there's just this like vibe over 0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:28.320 time that just really seduces you. Did you find Luccia 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:34.760 and Mia in Sicily? No, we we found them in Rome. Uh. 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:38.920 Simona who plays Lucia is actually from Naples and um 0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:41.400 MIA's from Rome. But we had a great set of 0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:46.800 casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options. 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:51.000 And those those two and Sabrina and Patria Tory who 0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.680 plays the manager, they're all they were all incredible and 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:56.640 so fun to work with. Yeah, they were fun to watch, 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.360 I'll tell you that. And I know that you have 0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:03.120 said that the show satirizes wealthy, white privilege, and you've 0:29:03.120 --> 0:29:05.840 said that your intention was to quote unquote poke the Bear, 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:10.320 but through a humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike, 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:14.560 what did you mean, um, well, poke the Bear? I 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:18.880 don't you know obviously you're I'm satirizing privilege, but you know, 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.200 especially with the first season, I also was poking the 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:24.480 bear as far as some of the I don't know, 0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:28.440 like I wanted to give voice to both you know, 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:34.040 the critiques of of the patriarchy and all of these 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.000 things that you know, we we are discussing, you know, 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:40.320 and have been discussing with fervor the last couple of years, 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:43.840 but also give voice to the people that are you know, 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:46.360 it's like, you know, I haven't hearing you know, like 0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:48.680 like some of the conversations that I'm hearing that people 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:52.120 don't want to say in public but like behind closed doors, 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:56.000 and try to you know, like not you know, make 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:59.080 it so it you're kind of walking the line where okay, 0:29:59.120 --> 0:30:01.840 well that's sort of is a fair point, and then like, 0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:04.400 oh yeah, but you're saying that because this is you know, 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:06.840 you're you're defending, you know, you're on your heels, So 0:30:07.000 --> 0:30:10.000 like trying to make it so it's not so such 0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:15.960 a simple, predigested conversation and and and have those conversations 0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:22.200 be um lively and like you know, multi layered, multi 0:30:22.240 --> 0:30:25.800 layered enough that like people feel like, oh they're they're 0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:28.800 being seen and then and it's still challenged and so 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:31.800 and that was that was what I was trying to do. 0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:35.280 And you know, like and and the fact that like 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:38.480 people on both sides of some of these arguments, like 0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:41.920 champion the show or also like hated the show, made 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.280 me feel like I did my job. Yeah, so you're 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:48.440 you're really showing some of those tricky conversations that people 0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:51.520 do have behind closed doors. And I think that that's 0:30:51.560 --> 0:30:55.040 what contributes, Mike to the realness of the show and 0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:59.920 the dialogue that you know, you feel like this is 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:02.600 what people really are talking about, and that you're not 0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:09.160 following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to be on the 0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:13.480 right side of any issue. Yeah, because I don't even 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:16.440 I don't even It's like, ultimately, it's like, I don't 0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:19.400 think it's the dramatist job too. It's I don't think 0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:23.520 it's it's a message conveying machine. If I was trying 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.360 to make a message, then I would be communicating in 0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:29.840 a different medium or a different kind of Uh. It's 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:32.520 really about giving voice of the different people who exist 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:34.520 in our world and try, you know, and do my 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:37.520 best to to make it feel like it's a you know, 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:42.640 a dimensional conversation after the break, why Mike spends so 0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:59.520 much time in the gray areas of human behavior. I 0:31:59.600 --> 0:32:02.640 know that lot of people have taken note that your characters, 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:07.760 so many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:10.600 there are certain things you like in certain things you 0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:13.760 really don't like, so you feel conflicted. And I feel 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:17.480 very conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the 0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:22.000 end of last season, and now I don't dislike her. 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:26.160 I feel sorry for her because she's quite competitive pathetic, 0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:31.400 but she's also sort of lovable too. Yeah, well, I 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:36.880 I mean yeah, I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge is lovable period, 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:41.880 and and so she brings the loveability for sure. But yeah, 0:32:41.880 --> 0:32:44.920 I do think it's like I, especially the first season, 0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:49.239 you know, I wanted there to be two tracks, which is, 0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.080 you know, her as the underdog who's looking for love 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:55.120 and dealing with the fact that her mom died and 0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:57.560 you know the pain of that, and so on one 0:32:57.600 --> 0:32:59.920 side you're rooting for her, and then there's this other 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.840 story where she's kind of dangling this carrot over this 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:09.720 other woman's you know, and future and making her feel 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.040 like there's hope for something and then she's kind of 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:14.920 a flake. And that just seems very true to life 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:17.720 to for me to some of these women that I've 0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:20.400 met and or you know man or too about just 0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:23.120 like where you know, they see themselves as a victim 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.560 in some sense and and the savior or savior or 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.240 savior yeah, and and they don't see how that they 0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:33.160 can also be victimizing and that they that they yeah, 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:36.400 that they they have agency and that they are yeah, 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:39.520 that that they are somehow blowing it. Let let me 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:42.080 ask you about some of the other characters in kind 0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:47.440 of a rapid fire way. We talked about Mia and Lucia, 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:52.360 and we talked about Valentina. Um. Let's talk about Porsche 0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:56.000 and I love this discussion online about Porsche's clothes. Have 0:33:56.160 --> 0:34:00.440 you seen this, Mike, that she dresses like good gen 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:04.480 Z Threat Store, Like nothing really goes together, like it 0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:07.120 doesn't look good or not. I mean, what do you 0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:10.600 think of all that? It's so funny. Well, a lot 0:34:10.600 --> 0:34:13.920 of the credit goes to um, I mean that was 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:17.879 her character on the page, But Hailey Lou Richardson, who's 0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:21.000 the actress, and then Alex Bavert, who is our costum designer, 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.960 you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. And 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:30.320 you know, I'm I'm a little bit like women's fashion 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:33.560 is not my um go too, but I but I 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:36.799 but I did weigh in. I did weigh in. I approved, 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:41.080 I supervised, but I uh but um yeah, I just 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:44.080 think that you know, to me, Porscha is somebody who 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:46.120 I see this a lot, and this was something that 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:49.040 I feel like online I think is the thing that 0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:52.080 I I find interesting is that there's a lot of 0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:55.400 people who are like rich, you know, like bad bad 0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:58.000 rich people. Rich people are terrible, you know, like it's 0:34:58.040 --> 0:35:00.400 this like this kind of like you know that that 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:02.480 I that I'm allowed to make the show as long 0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:04.680 as I show how bad rich people are. That the 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:06.759 moral of the story is that rich people are better something. 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:11.160 And it's like and and and obviously you know there 0:35:11.280 --> 0:35:13.960 is there's truth to that, like a lot of rich 0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:16.239 people are fighting up the world and so like I 0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.480 you know, but but I also you know you and 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:23.440 so like I guess Porsche was like a vehicle to 0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:27.560 explore how she sees in Tanya all of these bad 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:30.040 character traits and that she you know, if and if 0:35:30.080 --> 0:35:33.080 she had what Tanya had, she would have her life together, 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:35.480 and she would be she you know, like she would 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:38.160 be She wouldn't do it better than Tanya. But you 0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:41.960 see how in her own way she's she is kind 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:44.240 of lost in the In a similar way, she's actually 0:35:44.400 --> 0:35:47.759 kind of a mini me to Tanya and a fat 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:51.120 Tanya tells, Porsche, you remind me a lot of myself 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.160 when I was younger. But I also think Porsche is 0:35:54.320 --> 0:35:58.120 very gen Z and that she's sort of a little 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:02.480 bit lost and just doesn't know what she wants to do. 0:36:02.719 --> 0:36:05.720 She doesn't really have any goals. She's trying to figure 0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:08.480 it out. Did that I mean, do you know young 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:13.520 people like that that kind of helped shape that character? Yeah, 0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:15.520 I do think. I mean again, I don't want to 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:19.200 get crucified, but I do think I've noticed in this 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:24.560 younger generation a desire to try on identities and and 0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:27.279 and feel like there's something like, like, I don't know, 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:33.080 courageous about about identity as a way to express yourself 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:35.880 through whatever, like through the way you talk about yourself 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:38.200 or the clothes you wear or whatever. But like, ultimately 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:41.160 it is very label gazing, and it adds to I 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:46.680 think adds to um malaise. I think it actually it 0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:50.200 makes your It's like the more you start like yeah, 0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:54.840 like talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines, 0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:58.520 it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve. 0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:02.320 So like I think a little bit of Porsche comes 0:37:02.360 --> 0:37:04.160 through and that I mean, I I you know, like 0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:06.960 I don't want to think that I'm totally you know, 0:37:07.000 --> 0:37:08.759 but like she's just like I want this and I 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.200 don't know if I just want to have filled and 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.200 it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:17.759 that that's just yeah, it's maybe it's yeah, maybe it's 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:20.440 ages of maybe I'm just like I've become the person 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:22.640 that makes you. But like I just when I was younger, 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:24.399 it was just like it's to me, I still feel 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:28.120 like it's like you mean to like move outside of yourself, 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.399 to like find courage and move outside of your own 0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:35.360 you know, it's like your own navel gazing to really 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.200 then fully developed. You know. It's like if you're just 0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:42.200 always looking inside and doing selfies and then calling yourself 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:45.640 a different thing, and it's all about the closure where 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:47.640 you know, it's like that that just feels like that's um, 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:51.400 that's going to be a dead End Road. So that's Porsche. 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:57.160 And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne. 0:37:57.200 --> 0:37:59.319 I have to say, I think Oprey Plaza is my 0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:03.520 favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:06.400 state of on we that is now kind of morphed 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:10.120 into something else all together. And I love what you're 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:16.280 doing about jealousy with Ethan and uh and and Harper. 0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:21.239 So tell me a little bit about Harper's character. Well, 0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:24.239 I I Aubrey is a friend of mine and I 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:25.920 wanted to get her in the show, So a little 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.120 bit of it started with just like trying you know, 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:32.640 Aubrey is a very complicated, interesting person and and but 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:34.759 she's kind of known for this sort of dead like 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:37.080 the way she comes in at the beginning is kind 0:38:37.080 --> 0:38:39.680 of like maybe the way people see her or what 0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:42.760 thing they think that she's gonna be if she joins 0:38:42.800 --> 0:38:46.919 the white lotus world, but then start to show these 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:49.920 other kind of more vulnerable sides and that her toughness 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.440 is a little bit of a front and and um, 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:55.759 but I liked, you know, like what I was trying 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:58.440 to do with that whole storyline is, you know, it 0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:01.120 has to do with it kind of what Brad status 0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:05.400 was as far as status, but like with secondly, like 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:09.919 whether we're always comparing ourselves in our relationship to other 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:12.520 people's relationships and what they have and what they it 0:39:12.560 --> 0:39:14.479 seems like they you know, like what they do better, 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:18.239 what they do worse? And how how um? And I 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:20.240 was kind of playing a little bit at the beginning 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:23.320 where it's like you think, Okay, here's atar like NPR 0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:26.520 listening like you know, liberal, like you know, like these 0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:28.279 are the good guys that are gonna relate to. And 0:39:28.320 --> 0:39:30.799 then this other couple they're so vacuous and you know, 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:32.879 it's like but then kind of playing a little bit 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.719 with which is maybe that other couple is like dysfunctional 0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:39.200 and crazy. It's like, well they seem to be having 0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:42.200 more fun, like you know, like that that that maybe 0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:44.839 you know, like maybe it's not as as simple as 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:47.520 all of that. And and I don't want to give 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:49.920 away the ending, but yeah, how it all, How it 0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:53.040 all lands is kind of a little bit of insight 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:59.040 into what I'm trying to I'm not saying, but like, yeah, 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:02.360 try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected. I 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:04.200 guess it also seems to be a bit of a 0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:10.360 commentary on tech and finance bros. Mm hmm, yeah, Well 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:17.359 I just think new money, new money status um competition um, 0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:20.960 that weird sort of dance you play when you're financially 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:24.480 dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is sort 0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:29.000 of uh needs Ethan because he's made a boatload of 0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:33.799 money in tech, right, there's something weird about that dynamic. Well, 0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:37.240 I definitely I as a got a guy, I've been 0:40:37.480 --> 0:40:41.600 privy to lots of conversations over the years. I live 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.239 like next to Brentwood, so there's just like you know, 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:48.560 the Brentwood country Mark where like lawyers and finance people 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.440 and whatever like people in our my industry or whatever, 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:55.120 and how they how their buddies. But like even in 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:59.319 the in every conversation, you just sense this peacocking and 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:01.800 like they're trying to figure out like where they stand 0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:03.600 as far as who's making them more money, you know, 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:07.080 who makes like where Yeah, it's uh and so that's 0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:11.400 always very funny to me because I I whatever and 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:14.520 it's yeah, so yeah, I was kind of playing with 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:16.759 like yeah, they're friends, but like are they friends? Like 0:41:16.960 --> 0:41:20.520 what are they? Like? Like the competition is so heavy 0:41:20.560 --> 0:41:22.840 that it's just like can they ever really be friends? 0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:27.400 You know? Yeah, I find that whole sort of forsome fascinating, 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:31.120 and I love f Murray Abraham, which I mean, by 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:33.359 the way, what a what a feather in your cap 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:36.839 to get him to be in White Lotus. And then 0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:42.319 you've got from the Sopranos, You've got Michael Imperial. Imperial 0:41:42.719 --> 0:41:47.319 can help me with that, Michael Imperioli. Yeah, and who 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:50.640 plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco who 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:55.480 plays Albi. Uh so you have these three generations of 0:41:55.520 --> 0:42:01.520 Italian Americans. Yeah, so yeah. Uh well, first of all, yes, 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:07.600 Murray and Michael are I'm huge I was huge fans 0:42:07.640 --> 0:42:12.040 of prior and then working with them even more so. Uh, 0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:15.200 Murray is like, you know, he's I think he's eighty 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:18.960 two years old, and he's so still like enamored with 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:24.520 the process and acting and storytelling and it's inspiring. And 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.640 Michael is one of the most He's in the pantheon 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:32.200 of like the easiest, most like generous actors I've ever 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:34.600 worked with. So like, those two are incredible. And then 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:36.799 of course Adam to Mark was one of the sweetest kids, 0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:39.719 so like they were a great group, but like contextually 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:42.520 as far as the ideas of that, I just feel like, 0:42:42.960 --> 0:42:44.680 you know, I wanted you know, it's kind of getting 0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:48.719 into male sexuality and desire and male role, you know, 0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:51.759 the role like you know, men's roles and when it 0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:54.560 comes to romance and how they deal with the women, 0:42:54.680 --> 0:43:00.120 and and just voicing the different um generational attitudes in 0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:04.319 a kind of classic way. Uh, and and how they're 0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:07.440 all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:12.480 with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:16.719 and um uh and the interactions with women, that they're 0:43:16.760 --> 0:43:21.400 all kind of trapped in a certain sense. To Derek, 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.680 who works on this podcast, who's one of the producers, 0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:28.759 talked about how this season portrays a wide variety of 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:32.880 sexual relationships and entanglements and you were just talking about sex, 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:38.280 just as the opening title sequence portrays uh increasing debauchery 0:43:38.280 --> 0:43:41.520 in the art as the rollicking theme song plays, the 0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:44.840 show itself feels like it's revealing more and more about 0:43:44.880 --> 0:43:49.120 the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress it 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:54.320 or given to it or both. Even these are Derek's observations, 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:57.560 and I'm curious what you think of that, and sort 0:43:57.600 --> 0:44:02.440 of how you were trying to portray different just different 0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:06.640 kinds of relationships, and for example, you portray sex workers, 0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:10.879 you know, Lucia and Me a very differently than kind 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:17.200 of what we normally see in TV, books or movies. Well, I, 0:44:17.320 --> 0:44:20.080 you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, you know, 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:23.359 it should start with these kind of pretty you know, 0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:27.200 like like you're going into a palazzo and the beautiful walls, 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:30.360 and then you start seeing little things in the corners 0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:34.960 and you realize there's this kind of mischievous or even 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:39.560 kind of creeper pervy like sexual things that are happening 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.799 in the margins. And then by the end of the 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.240 credit sequence, it's almost like a Bosch painting of like 0:44:46.440 --> 0:44:50.240 just you know in the and where you know, the 0:44:50.320 --> 0:44:53.960 carnality of it and in the desire of it is 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:56.279 is like front and center. And I felt like that 0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:58.920 with the season two, which is like you start off 0:44:58.920 --> 0:45:01.440 and it's like you a little bit of these repressed 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:05.000 people trying to like you know, figure out, like you know, 0:45:05.280 --> 0:45:08.359 how to have a good vacation, and that like being 0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:11.160 in the in the in sight to of Sicily and 0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:14.279 in this kind of a little crucible that like the 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:17.359 desire and you start seeing desire and everyone and it's yeah, 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:20.000 it becomes a very horny show. And I just felt 0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:21.640 like it was like especially like you know, like and 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:25.520 as far as like yeah, I mean and I yeah, 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:27.760 you know, I I don't. I don't think I'll always 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:30.880 write stories like this. It is not certainly my wheelhouse 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:34.200 like directing scenes of like intimacy between people and like 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:36.440 getting people nude and stuff. It's just like I was like, 0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:39.200 you know, like I was like, this is not something 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:43.840 that I was like, whatever you guys want to do, 0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:47.319 like what's thankfully you know, when you hire actors that 0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:50.880 are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am, so 0:45:50.960 --> 0:45:52.600 like they're like you want me to take my top off? 0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:57.120 Uh yeah, sure if that's good, You sure that's okay? Yeah, 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:00.840 So like so yeah, so that was but I and I, um, 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:03.000 but I do feel like it was like it's fun 0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:05.520 to show I actually think it's fun to show women 0:46:05.640 --> 0:46:08.640 horny horny women, because I feel like that sometimes is 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:11.120 something that like, you know, a lot of times in 0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:16.680 in in drama, it's like they're either victimized or virginal 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.520 or like I don't know, it's there or is it 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:21.360 or or it's like this kind of like you know, um, 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:24.520 like they'll talk it's like sex in the city. It's 0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:27.160 like it's it's very like talky, but like you know 0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:30.719 where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the um 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:33.200 you know. It's like and you know, to me, that 0:46:33.400 --> 0:46:38.480 just feels true to life in a way. I guess 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:40.680 I don't know how else to put it, but anyway, 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:43.239 so um so yeah, So I just thought it was like, 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:46.080 let's do sex, let's just go all in and and 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:48.400 that was kind of the I was like, if we're 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:49.880 gonna go all in, it's like by the end, you 0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:52.480 just want to feel like, yeah, the animal in them, 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:57.560 in each of these um human characters. So this is 0:46:57.600 --> 0:47:00.000 the big question. Is there going to be a white 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:03.719 it is three? Is there going to be a third season? Yes, 0:47:03.800 --> 0:47:07.520 they picked us up for a third season, and yeah 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:11.880 where Mike, where, Well, I want to go to Asia, 0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:14.319 That's what I think. Look, I mean it feels like, 0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:17.680 you know, you started like America, then you do Europe. 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:19.719 It feels like the next one would be I don't know, 0:47:19.760 --> 0:47:21.840 I don't know why that feels that. It's just like 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:24.320 I'm trying to think like like, yeah, where does Katie 0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:27.319 current go on vacation? Where you tell me? Actually, I 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:29.759 you know what. I ran into you once on vacation 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:33.640 where I was in Yeah, I was in Berlin, staying 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:37.040 at a classic old hotel in the middle Berlin, and 0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:39.080 I forget the name of it, and you were staying 0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:41.840 there at the same time with I ran into you. 0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:43.880 I ran I think we were like there the same 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:46.640 days or whatever, because I ran into you. You were 0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.160 very friendly all you seem like you're having a good time. 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:53.919 I was with my husband, who still good great, and yeah, 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:55.560 you guys. I don't know if you were there for 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:58.080 work or vacation or whatever, but you were. We were 0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:01.319 there for vacation. And you know, Mike husband John is 0:48:01.360 --> 0:48:05.840 a huge Survivor nut. I mean, he has seen every season. 0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:10.520 He finds it fascinating, so he loves you from Survivor. 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:13.399 That's cool. I think it was prior to me during 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:17.560 Survivor you were it might I think it was what 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:21.880 didn't I got married in so it was probably it 0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:25.040 was like after that it was like, yeah it was 0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:32.120 sixteen maybe, yeah, I did survive Okay, Well now here 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:35.759 you seemed very um, Yeah, you seem like you had 0:48:36.040 --> 0:48:40.960 happy energy. I liked I liked you from just the vibe. 0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:45.120 That's so nice? Well is I don't want to spoil 0:48:45.200 --> 0:48:47.520 the finale, but do you think we'll see Tanya in 0:48:47.560 --> 0:48:51.839 the third season? I love well, I love, I love 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:55.360 writing Tanya and I love I love We're going to Jennifer, 0:48:55.520 --> 0:48:59.879 So definitely could be. You can't tell me. If you tell, 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:03.120 do you, you'd have to kill me, right, Mike, Well, 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:07.360 what do you mean you want? Well, you never know. 0:49:08.120 --> 0:49:13.319 Could be I'm not telling you, you know, I don't 0:49:13.320 --> 0:49:17.240 want to ruin it. A huge thank you to my guests, 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:20.120 Mike White. I imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday, 0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:23.759 December eleven for the finale to find out who makes 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:27.600 it out of the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever 0:49:27.640 --> 0:49:33.960 you're listening to this, Happy Benjene. Next Question with Katie 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:36.520 Kirk is a production of I Heart Media and Katie 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:41.240 Kurk Media. The executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. 0:49:41.600 --> 0:49:46.400 The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:50.279 and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by 0:49:50.360 --> 0:49:54.080 Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:56.680 sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go 0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.440 to Katie Couric dot com. You can also find me 0:49:59.440 --> 0:50:03.160 at Katie correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:06.560 For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:10.279 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:11.320 your favorite shows.