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Speaker 1: People are being assured over and over again that women

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Speaker 1: are the problem.

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Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and ungost creative, I'm bridge tad and this

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Speaker 2: is there are no girls on the Internet. Like a

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Speaker 2: bad penny you just can't get rid of. Enemy of

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Speaker 2: the Show, Andrew Tate is back. After being banned from

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Speaker 2: pretty much every major social media platform around, the self

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Speaker 2: described misogynistic influencer and alleged sex trafficker has re emerged,

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Speaker 2: this time on Threads, which he joined this week. Now,

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Speaker 2: if there's one thing that Andrew Tate excels at, it's

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Speaker 2: slipping through the cracks of platform bands. Because he didn't

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Speaker 2: join Threads as Andrew Tate, he joined as the supposed

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Speaker 2: representative of a new political party that he started called

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Speaker 2: BROV or the Britain Restoring Underlying Value Party. He's even

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Speaker 2: floated the idea of running for Prime minister on social media.

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Speaker 2: Here's why that matters. Meta has historically not really moderated

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Speaker 2: content from political candidates. Under what they call the newest

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Speaker 2: worthy exemption, posts from politicians may stay up even if

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Speaker 2: those posts violate community guidelines, just so long as Meta

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Speaker 2: decides those posts are in the public interest because that

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Speaker 2: person is running for public office and the irony doesn't

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Speaker 2: stop there. At the same time that Tate is joining Threads,

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Speaker 2: a platform owned by Meta, He's also suing Meta for

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Speaker 2: fifty million dollars over his twenty twenty two ban, But

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Speaker 2: according to Deadline, Andrew Tate's attorneys filed the suit in

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Speaker 2: the wrong city because Facebook is famously headquartered in Menlo Park, California,

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Speaker 2: and Tate's attorneys filed the suit in Los Angeles County

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Speaker 2: for some reason. We know birds of a feather flock together,

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Speaker 2: so it should come as no surprise that Andrew Tate

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Speaker 2: is a Trump ally. When Trump was reelected, Tate cheered,

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Speaker 2: saying that Trump's win meant that he would not have

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Speaker 2: to face accountability on his sex trafficking charges, tweeting the

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Speaker 2: Tates will be free. Trump is the president. The good

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Speaker 2: old days are back, and it kind of seems like

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Speaker 2: he was sort of right, because this week ProPublica uncovered

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Speaker 2: that the White House actually did try to intervene with

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Speaker 2: the Department of Homeland Security investigation once Tate was in custody.

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Speaker 2: A White House official who coincidentally once served as Andrew

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Speaker 2: Tate's attorney pressured the Department of Homeland Security to return

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Speaker 2: Andrew Tate's electronic devices back to him after those devices

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Speaker 2: were seized as part of the investigation into Tate, even

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Speaker 2: though those devices potentially contained evidence. DHS officials reportedly felt

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Speaker 2: that this was an attempt by the White House to

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Speaker 2: interfere with the federal investigation into Tate, and ProPublica argues

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Speaker 2: this is part of a pattern in the Trump white House,

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Speaker 2: you know, inserting itself into how the government deals with

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Speaker 2: investigations when criminal charges involved their allies. Andrew Tate has

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Speaker 2: been grifting a generation of young men and boys into

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Speaker 2: making him rich by stoking their anxieties, anger, and fears

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Speaker 2: his content is dangerous. But it's not just Tait. An

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Speaker 2: entire ecosystem of extremist content creators and what's commonly known

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Speaker 2: as the manosphere are gamifying the Internet to line their

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Speaker 2: pockets and putting all of us at risk in the process.

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Speaker 1: So the manosphere is this umbrella term that a lot

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Speaker 1: of different misogynistic activists commentators kind of fall unders, whether

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Speaker 1: that be someone like a men's rights activists, a pickup artist,

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Speaker 1: a blogger, a podcaster, pretty much anyone whose main deal

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Speaker 1: is misogyny that falls under the manosphere.

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Speaker 2: Justin Horowitz has been researching viral extremist influencers with Media

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Speaker 2: Matters since twenty twenty. So a lot of this content

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Speaker 2: really seems to prey on the fear in vulnerabilities of

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Speaker 2: young men, like you're not working out as hard as

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Speaker 2: all the other men around you, or you're never going

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Speaker 2: to get a date, or you spend a lot of

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Speaker 2: time alone at home instead of being out. Why is that?

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Speaker 1: I think that that is a great gateway to get

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Speaker 1: to talk about misogyny and hate and to push extremism.

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Speaker 1: So something like fitness content or something like whether that

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Speaker 1: be gambling or even gaming some of these manosphere influencers

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Speaker 1: are involved in. It is just a way to get

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Speaker 1: people to log on to subscribe to their content so

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Speaker 1: that they can push further extremism and further misogyny down

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Speaker 1: the road. And kind of going off what you just said,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these manosphere influencers do talk about sort

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Speaker 1: of the real fears that men are experiencing, so things

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Speaker 1: like financial instability or rejection dating advice. There's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of influencers that speak to these real f fears

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Speaker 1: of young men that are outside the manosphere. So I

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Speaker 1: think that young men are particularly interested in these influencers

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Speaker 1: because there's not that many to choose from, and when

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Speaker 1: these are the ones that are available, that's who they

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Speaker 1: that's who they'll spend their time listening to.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that's such a bummer because there are men and

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Speaker 2: women and all kinds of folks who make content about

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Speaker 2: like for young people, right, But the content that we

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Speaker 2: get that we see amplified on social media is never

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Speaker 2: the person who's making a podcast digging into the doing

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Speaker 2: a thoughtful dig into about like the nuances of dating

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three for young men, or the realities

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Speaker 2: of economic stability. Like that would be content that people

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Speaker 2: would be looking for. I think there's like a like

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Speaker 2: a thirst for it, and there are people making thoughtful

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Speaker 2: content about that, but they certainly do not enjoy the

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Speaker 2: exposure or the reach or the or the platforms like

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Speaker 2: people making Manosphere content. Why is that?

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Speaker 1: I think that a lot of the manosphere content oftentimes

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Speaker 1: the first and like the first thing people are seeing

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Speaker 1: are these very viral moments. So what they're seeing are

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Speaker 1: these TikTok clips of someone saying something that is extremely misogynist,

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Speaker 1: but maybe they'll have someone that is there to give

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Speaker 1: a retort. But that's just one way to get people

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Speaker 1: sort of involved or get their eyes on it. So

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Speaker 1: these manosphere, these Manosphere influencers, they just have a they're

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Speaker 1: honestly very They're very good at the Internet. And it's

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Speaker 1: the same way that Andrew Tate was able to, you know,

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Speaker 1: make sure that everybody on the Internet knew who he was.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was the most googled person last year.

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Speaker 1: They're just very good at being able to play the

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Speaker 1: Internet game, play the virality game.

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Speaker 2: These creators are gamifying our Internet landscape by cranking out

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Speaker 2: moments designed for social media virality and incentivizing their followers

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Speaker 2: to share them online. As part of Andrew Kate's Real

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Speaker 2: World app, Tate promises that subscribers who pay fifty dollars

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Speaker 2: a month where they have can make millions by reposting

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Speaker 2: his clips on social media sites. That's why platforms like

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Speaker 2: TikTok are flooded with his toxic, harmful messages. More and

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Speaker 2: more of these creators, like the Fresh and Fit podcast

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Speaker 2: and the Whatever podcast are doing similar things. It's like

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Speaker 2: an ecosystem of toxicity.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, it's really impressive, and it's kind of scary as well.

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Speaker 2: It is scary, especially with Andrew Tate. I mean, what

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Speaker 2: like something that I see a lot with when it

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Speaker 2: comes to these podcasts. I use that in quotes because

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Speaker 2: as a podcaster, I have some like issues with how

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Speaker 2: they're pod Well, well that's either here nor there. But

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Speaker 2: you know, it'll be these viral moments where they'll get

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Speaker 2: you know, like Fresh and Vit does this a lot. Well,

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Speaker 2: they'll where they'll they'll have a black woman on the show,

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Speaker 2: seemingly just to degrade and humiliate her. And maybe this

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Speaker 2: woman will shrink and sit silently while they do this,

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Speaker 2: maybe she will say something back, maybe she will storm out,

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Speaker 2: But that clip on social media will get such big engagement.

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Speaker 2: And even if you are someone who finds these views

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Speaker 2: a borrent, you're still looking at them. They're still getting

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Speaker 2: your eyeballs. Is that sort of what you mean by

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Speaker 2: the way they're able to play social media algorithms to

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Speaker 2: ensure that their content is always getting that high engagement,

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Speaker 2: and thus we're going to see more and more of it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that is exactly what I mean. They are able

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Speaker 1: to find that ten second clip of them degrading someone

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Speaker 1: or making sure that they look a fool just so

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Speaker 1: that they can get people's eyes on them, and then

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Speaker 1: give them a follow, and then you go to their

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Speaker 1: actual podcast and you see it's three hours long of

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Speaker 1: horrible misogyny. Like I said, it is really just like

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Speaker 1: a gateway. Some of these viral clips are just a

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Speaker 1: gateway to get people more involved in the manosphere community.

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Speaker 1: And I saw it, like you said, with Fresh and Fit.

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Speaker 1: There are other podcasts like the whatever dating podcast huge

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Speaker 1: on TikTok. My colleague Sophie and I recently did a

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Speaker 1: piece on them as well. It's pretty much a Fresh

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Speaker 1: and Fit knockoff, but you know, it's just our own

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Speaker 1: twist on it. But there they really got our attention

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Speaker 1: at Media Matters because of their viral moments that we

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Speaker 1: were seeing on TikTok that was just popping up in

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Speaker 1: our feeds.

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Speaker 2: God, it's interesting that these are often like dating or

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Speaker 2: lifestyle podcasts because I don't know how to put this,

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Speaker 2: but I had so. I was home over the weekend

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Speaker 2: and I was spending time with a family member who

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Speaker 2: I was really surprised to learn. In Enjoy's Andrew take content,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, what is it that you like

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Speaker 2: about him? And he was like, well, I just see

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Speaker 2: the clips on social media, like the clips on Instagram

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Speaker 2: where he's driving a Bugatti and he's talking about how

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Speaker 2: important it is to grind. And he was saying, how

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Speaker 2: like nobody's really giving that message today, that it's important

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Speaker 2: to grind. I was like, well, I don't know about that,

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Speaker 2: but and then I was like, oh, so, do you

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Speaker 2: listen to his podcast take speech and he was like no,

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Speaker 2: I tried to. It's like three hours long of him

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Speaker 2: rambling and like, none of that appeals to me. And

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Speaker 2: I found it so interesting that this person in my life,

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Speaker 2: who I think of as like a smart with it person,

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Speaker 2: was taken by these short to the point where they

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Speaker 2: would defend this person not having dived deeper into any

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Speaker 2: of their longer form content or and had tried to

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Speaker 2: but could not get through it. Like, is that by design?

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Speaker 1: I do think it's by design. I think that parasocial

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Speaker 1: relationships with these Manosphere influencers are created very easily. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that it takes a lot of content for

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Speaker 1: you to feel a connection with some of these influencers.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think that is specific to the manosphere.

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Speaker 1: I think that can happen with any sort of TikToker

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Speaker 1: or someone you're following online. But I think that what

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Speaker 1: a lot of these manoscript fear influencers are trying to

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Speaker 1: do is they want you to become who they are, right,

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Speaker 1: So they say, I'm an alpha male. You want to

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Speaker 1: be a high value man. And what you want to

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Speaker 1: do is you want to become an high value man,

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Speaker 1: you should be an alpha male. So what people are

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Speaker 1: doing is they're looking up to these people. It becomes very,

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Speaker 1: very easy to defend someone when you want to be them.

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Speaker 2: Creators like Andrew Tate are notorious for being really good

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Speaker 2: at getting around bands On social media platforms, content that

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Speaker 2: uses dog whistles or codes are not always detected, and

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Speaker 2: even when individual creators are banned, their followers can still

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Speaker 2: post their content. This is how take gets around being

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Speaker 2: banned from pretty much every social media platform out there

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Speaker 2: except Twitter. When Elon Musk took over Twitter, he let

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Speaker 2: Andrew Tate back on the platform and the two sometimes

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Speaker 2: publicly interact. And when Musk was touting payments for people

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Speaker 2: who post on Twitter, Andrew Tate proudly bragged that he

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Speaker 2: got twenty thousand dollars. What's also interesting to me is

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Speaker 2: the role that you say social media plays in this.

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Speaker 2: Some of these influencers like Andrew Tate, who was famously

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Speaker 2: banned from like all platforms, like I don't even know,

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Speaker 2: I don't even think he's on Pinterest, like I met.

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Speaker 2: He was famously not just let back on when Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk took over at Twitter, but as of last week

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Speaker 2: being paid like twenty thousand dollars to stay on Twitter

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Speaker 2: and make content. Other influencers that you've that you've written about,

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Speaker 2: like sneak O. These are people who have technically been

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Speaker 2: banned from platforms, yet I see their content all the time.

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Speaker 2: What's going on there?

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Speaker 1: Honestly, it's a lot of banovation, I'll say that. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of these tech platforms they are not good

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Speaker 1: at knowing who is evading their bands, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people at Media Matters we write about these kind of banovations,

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Speaker 1: but it's also about some of these influencers are going

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Speaker 1: to these like all platforms we're talking about like Rumble

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Speaker 1: of course, parlor when that was a thing, Gab, all

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Speaker 1: of the Twitter knockoffs, all Twitter, the plethora of those,

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Speaker 1: but people are bringing their audiences from these mainstream platforms.

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Speaker 1: Let's say sneak O was brought back on Twitter, he

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Speaker 1: can tell all of his Twitter followers to go follow

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Speaker 1: him on Rumble, which is like a you know, knock

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Speaker 1: off YouTube pretty much for the alright. And what they

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Speaker 1: can do is they can build huge audiences on these

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Speaker 1: platforms and then they can find other influencers that are

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Speaker 1: on Rumble, and then it just kind of becomes this

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole that people go down. Once you're on Rumble,

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Speaker 1: you can find all these other Rumble influencers. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's really about a way to get like all of

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Speaker 1: your followers into one place. And like, these influencers are

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Speaker 1: really good at that. They're really good at getting their

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Speaker 1: followers to do what they want them to do.

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Speaker 2: It's it's I mean, I hate to give them any credit,

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Speaker 2: but it is a very effective strategy because I see

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Speaker 2: them all the time and I'm always like, I thought

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Speaker 2: they banned you, I thought they got rid of you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, They're like a pesky little bug that you just

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Speaker 1: cannot get rid of.

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Speaker 2: It's not just Andrew Tate. More and more content creators

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Speaker 2: are making similar content in Andrew Tate's image. Some of them,

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Speaker 2: like Sneako, who got to start making call of duty

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Speaker 2: content on YouTube before jumping to the platform Rumble, you

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Speaker 2: might not have heard of. But even if you haven't

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Speaker 2: heard of them, it's likely that your little brother or

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Speaker 2: little cousin probably has. We've talked a lot about Tate,

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Speaker 2: and rightly so, he's like the most googled person. But

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Speaker 2: you've done a really great job of mapping out the

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Speaker 2: entire ecosystem of the of men's rights influencers who are

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Speaker 2: some of the major players that folks might not know.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about sneak O, he's definitely He kind

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Speaker 1: of started as like a man on the street interview

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Speaker 1: type of TikToker doing kind of YouTube videos when he

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Speaker 1: was younger, and then made his way into the manosphere.

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Speaker 1: Another person that I've been writing about recently who've actually

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Speaker 1: noticed has gotten a lot of pick up recently was

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Speaker 1: h Pearl Davis. She goes by just pearly things online.

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Speaker 1: She's a men's rights influencer or I guess she would

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Speaker 1: just call herself a manosphere influencer of some sort, and

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Speaker 1: she's been getting a lot of attention recently as the

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Speaker 1: female Andrew Tate. Who else have I written about. Let's

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Speaker 1: see Aiden Ross, who was one of the biggest Twitch streamers.

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Speaker 1: He recently has moved over to kick, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of a Twitch knockoff that's owned by Steak, which is

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Speaker 1: a crypto gambling organization. And then there's the Whatever podcast,

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Speaker 1: as I talked about before, which is kind of like

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Speaker 1: fresh and fit Jonathan Hogwood, who's another men's rights activists. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: there are so many Andrew Tait knockoffs that they are

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Speaker 1: almost hard to map out. At this point, I feel

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Speaker 1: like every time I jump online, I'm finding someone else

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Speaker 1: that is saying the same thing to their followers, and

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Speaker 1: it is just full blown misogyny. And you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: check one week and they'll have a significant amount of followers,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll check their follower count the next week

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Speaker 1: and they've just blown up. These people are just gaining

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Speaker 1: followers at like very rapid speeds.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, So I've noticed the same

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Speaker 2: thing that a lot of these influencers. They'll start by

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Speaker 2: doing funny pranks or man on the street or video

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Speaker 2: game live streaming and then kind of dovetail into misogyny.

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Speaker 2: And then some of them will like explode. How much

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Speaker 2: of that do you think is just kind of playing

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Speaker 2: to what works? Like being like, Oh, when I was

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Speaker 2: just doing X, I wasn't really getting traction. When I

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Speaker 2: started dipping into misogyny, anti semitism, conspiracy theories, women and

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Speaker 2: Jewish people are the root of your problems. Women don't

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Speaker 2: deserve rights. I got a lot more traction. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to keep working what works. How much of it do

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Speaker 2: you think is just like a marketing tactic.

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Speaker 1: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I

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Speaker 1: really think that misogyny gets clicks. I think that hating

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Speaker 1: women gets clicks. I think being an anti Semite unfortunately

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Speaker 1: gets clicks as well. I think that these are definitely

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Speaker 1: strategies that people can turn to when they've run out

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Speaker 1: of options. You know, doing a prank video, being a TikToker,

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Speaker 1: depending on your content will only get you so far.

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Speaker 1: And this is definitely a road that people see. And

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Speaker 1: not only that, but it's also profitable. So the manosphere

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Speaker 1: in general, there's oftentimes a monetary aspect, So what are

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Speaker 1: these people selling? They're always selling something, whether that's masculinity

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Speaker 1: lessons or dating advice. Advice on how to go viral

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Speaker 1: anything like that. You know, the people that are in it,

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Speaker 1: they are in it for themselves. They are not really

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Speaker 1: trying to help these men become high value men or

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Speaker 1: whatever they say that they're trying to help them become.

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Speaker 1: They are trying to make money, get followers, and market themselves.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a grift. It's a scam. Like that's

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Speaker 2: that's the thing that really it troubles me. Like this

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Speaker 2: is when I was having this long, long ass debate

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Speaker 2: with my family member last week this past weekend about

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Speaker 2: Andrew Kate, I was surprised that he was not able

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Speaker 2: to see what a clear and obvious grift this person

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Speaker 2: is running. This person is telling is stoking on the

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Speaker 2: fears and vulnerabilities which may be very real of a

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Speaker 2: community of young men who legitimately feel like forgotten, unseen.

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Speaker 2: He is stoking those things to enrich himself personally. And

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Speaker 2: I guess, like, how do people not see it for

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Speaker 2: the grift that it is, Like does it? How is

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Speaker 2: it so effective when it's like clearly he is trying

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Speaker 2: to take your money. He doesn't actually care about you

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Speaker 2: being a high value man or actually like seeing you

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Speaker 2: and the vulnerabilities that you have. He's interested in fattening

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Speaker 2: his pockets.

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Speaker 1: I think then it goes back to what I was

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Speaker 1: saying before, where they are really just so few influencers

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Speaker 1: that are speaking to these fears of young men that

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Speaker 1: it is like it is completely oh, like the the

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Speaker 1: idea that people are doing it for the money, it's

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Speaker 1: just overshadowed. I think people are people become extremely cut,

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Speaker 1: They become such committed followers to these influencers that you know,

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Speaker 1: they look past the bad they look past the money

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Speaker 1: that they're giving, they look past the horrible misogyny. And

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Speaker 1: some people when they are fans, they know that what

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Speaker 1: these people are saying is wrong and dangerous and putting

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Speaker 1: like the real lives of women in particular, like they're

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Speaker 1: making a lot, they're making women's lives more dangerous because

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Speaker 1: they think that they're helping them in some way, they're

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Speaker 1: trying to like improve their lives and for people when

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Speaker 1: if they haven't had someone to talk to, or they

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Speaker 1: haven't had someone that felt like they was really like

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Speaker 1: speaking to their soul, like they're willing to look past

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Speaker 1: those things.

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Speaker 2: And it really makes me sad because what they're selling

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Speaker 2: them is so shitty, Like somebody who made good content

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Speaker 2: about women and men and gender and sexuality and dating

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, someone who was actually meaningfully seeing

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Speaker 2: these people and speaking to their concerns, I think would

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Speaker 2: be great. I think what makes me upset is that

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Speaker 2: they flood the space with such garbage. So people who

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Speaker 2: actually are making that content really can't get a foothold

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Speaker 2: because who's going to listen to somebody who is making

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Speaker 2: a nuanced point about gender and dating when you can

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Speaker 2: watch this very exciting video of black woman's being degraded

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Speaker 2: and then storming off of a podcast set right, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I think it really creates this false world

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Speaker 2: where in heterosexual relationships, men and women are constantly at odds.

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Speaker 2: That like, people don't have relationships that are based on

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Speaker 2: mutual respect, seeing each other, wanting to support each other.

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Speaker 2: They're the only kind of relationship that exists between a

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Speaker 2: man and a woman is one that is built on

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Speaker 2: you know, breaking the woman, her being submissive, you being dominant,

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Speaker 2: when in reality, people who have healthy relationships are not

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Speaker 2: obsessed with the particulars in this way, Like this is

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Speaker 2: not like I don't know anybody who has a relationship

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Speaker 2: like that, and that is certainly not a relationship to

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Speaker 2: strive for. Yet they are presenting to a whole generation

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Speaker 2: of young people that this is the only kind of

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Speaker 2: relationship that you can have, and it's just not true.

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Speaker 1: I mean traditional gender roles. I mean that that just

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Speaker 1: kind of oftentimes will take out the whole part of

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Speaker 1: like important communication. You know, if if your job is

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Speaker 1: to do this, my job is to do that, and

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Speaker 1: like that's how it's going to be. Oftentimes it's just

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Speaker 1: not going to work that way. It'll just it's so

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Speaker 1: outdated the gender roles that they're pushing that it just,

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Speaker 1: like you said, it doesn't really make sense and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. I'd wish that I could like point to

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Speaker 1: more like influencers that are creating content bud dating and

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Speaker 1: that are kind of creating content that would be kind

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Speaker 1: of the opposite of manosphere content. But like, off the

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Speaker 1: top of my head, I can't think of any obviously

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Speaker 1: because I work in this space. But it's just sad

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Speaker 1: to see that. It feels like when men are looking

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Speaker 1: for a role model or someone to look up to,

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Speaker 1: it just feels like there's just one type of role

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Speaker 1: model online that they can find.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at our back. It's not

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Speaker 2: just men. There are women creating misogynistic content on social

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Speaker 2: media too. While Andrew Tate was in custody being investigated

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Speaker 2: for running a trafficking ring in Romania, h Pearl Davis,

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Speaker 2: or just Pearly Things filled the gap and spiked in popularity,

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Speaker 2: sometimes called the female Andrew Tate. Business Insider reported that

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Speaker 2: Pearl's YouTube audience grew fifty percent in the three months

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Speaker 2: since Tate was detained, and that our subscriber base jumped

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Speaker 2: from around eight hundred thousand to one point three million

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Speaker 2: while Tate was in custody. On her merch store, Pearl

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Speaker 2: sells shirts that say women shouldn't vote.

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Speaker 1: I think you would actually be surprised. I think that

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Speaker 1: there is a small sector within the menosphere where there

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Speaker 1: are women viewing extreme misogyny against other women. I think

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Speaker 1: that men in particular think that if a woman says it,

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Speaker 1: they can repeat it. If a woman is talking bad

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Speaker 1: about women and saying extreme misogyny, they can just say

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Speaker 1: it more casually. Almost you know. I've been following Pearl

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Speaker 1: for quite a while. I feel like I've been following

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Speaker 1: her since she was just a TikToker, and she was

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Speaker 1: just constantly getting banned on TikTok. And now I'm seeing

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Speaker 1: articles written about her within really the last week where

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Speaker 1: people are saying she's the new female Andrew Tate. And

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Speaker 1: I think that part of it. This is just my opinion.

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Speaker 1: I think that the media is picking up on her

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Speaker 1: because they like to see women attack each other.

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Speaker 2: I think that is.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you have someone like just pearly things

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Speaker 1: talking bad about women, They're like, oh, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: definitely something we should cover, but we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: the actual reality of it. Like I said before that

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Speaker 1: you know, her dangerous misogyny is still putting the lives

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Speaker 1: of women in danger. You know, it's just as bad

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Speaker 1: as something that Andrew Tate was saying. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: just coming out of someone else's mouth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've noticed that too. Like another kind of like

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Speaker 2: right wing influencer type, Candice Owen, people love it when

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Speaker 2: she says something bad about black people because she's a

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00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: black woman, and so like, I do think there's something

431
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: that like is even outside of these right wing media circles,

432
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: in more traditional or legacy media. I think that there

433
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: is something just irresistible about that framing of like, well,

434
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 2: this woman doesn't think that women should have rights, and

435
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: she's a woman and she's saying it, Like, I think

436
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: you're absolutely right that there's something they've identified that is

437
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: clicky or buzzy about that, and it'll always make headlines.

438
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: It's the same thing about when you have like this

439
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: group Gaze against groomers attacking the LGBT community. You know,

440
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: it's like, well, they're getting all this media pickup just

441
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: because they're queer people attacking other queer people. I feel

442
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: like it kind of falls in kind of the same formula.

443
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: There another hallmark of this kind of content, the grind

444
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: set mentality. The grind set is kind of a catch

445
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: all for all of the traits and interests supposedly embodied

446
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: by the high value alpha male. So in creators like

447
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: Andrew Tate or Fresh and Fit all for their followers

448
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: paid coaching to become these high value men. It runs

449
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 2: the gamut from content about fitness or real estate, stocks

450
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: and cryptocurrency. It might seem kind of all over the

451
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: place to an outsider, but they're selling the shortcut to

452
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: an entire lifestyle. Something that I've noticed about the content

453
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: of folks like fresh and Fit Andrew Tata especially. Is

454
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: it so much of the topics are all over the place,

455
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: Like they talk a lot about crypto, which I always

456
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: found so interesting. Is it just that crypto is sort

457
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 2: of synonymous with young people who are very much online

458
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 2: and they're just trying to like give them what they want,

459
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: or there's something else going on there.

460
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: You know. I think crypto trading is like part of

461
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: the grindset, right, So it's like, what are we doing

462
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: to make money? How can we make money the fastest

463
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: way possible? And how can we do it efficiently and

464
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: be alpha males while doing it. So I just feel

465
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: like cryptocurrency kind of falls into the world of the

466
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: manosphere because it's all about doing something quickly and doing

467
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: something big. I think those are just two aspects of

468
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: the manosphere that are just like, you know, you can

469
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: kind of apply that to like anything making money, meeting girls, dating,

470
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: and I think cryptocurrency, you know, I think it's just

471
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: hot and trendy, and I think that's just kind of

472
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: like where it's fallen recently.

473
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love how you put that that

474
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: it's just doing something. It's the grindset of doing something

475
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: quick and big. I think that that's something that all

476
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: of this content kind of has in common, this idea

477
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 2: that there is a cheat code to life, that there's

478
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: a cheat code that's going to get you rich, there's

479
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: a cheat code that's going to get you fit, there's

480
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 2: a cheat code that's going to get you beloved by women,

481
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: sexual prowess, social like, social power. You can just gamify it,

482
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: and if you have that figured it out, you just

483
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: don't have the right cheat code. Like, I think that

484
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: it's all kind of wrapped up in that.

485
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: I really like that term cheat code. That's not something

486
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: I've used in this, but I think that, you know,

487
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: the whole idea of the red pill, so being like

488
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: women are the root of all evil, you know, understanding

489
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: that women are the reason I'm not financially stable, women

490
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: are the reason I'm not dating the women are the

491
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: reason of so and so and so and so for

492
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: whatever you know, poor man's problems he has. I think

493
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: that that is also sort of a mental cheek code

494
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: to be like, these are the reasons I'm not happy,

495
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: you know, it's because of women. And I think that

496
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: that's just kind of another way to sort of understand

497
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: the framing when it comes to just like the mentality

498
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: of it.

499
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I think back to when I

500
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 2: was a young person going through my first breakup. I

501
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: just like all most young people do. I had like

502
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: one bad breakup that sort of defined part of my life,

503
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: and what I turned to was like the Cure records

504
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: and really bad poetry. What makes me sad now is

505
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,239
Speaker 2: that there is this entire, well oiled digital machine that

506
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: will when they find a vulnerable young person who was

507
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: in that moment of like, oh, you're heartbroken, they will

508
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: find that young person and be like, oh, the reason

509
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: why you feel this way, think about how bad you feel,

510
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: It's because of women, right like, And you can build

511
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: an entire identity and ethos around the fact that women

512
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 2: are the source for your pain, for why you're not

513
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 2: feeling good, while you're not succeeding, while you don't have money, whatever,

514
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: whatever the thing is. And you know, I don't think

515
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: I don't think this kind of content is new. But

516
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: what I think is new is that young people all

517
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: have a device in their hands that connect it to

518
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: them so instantly, and that content is not just there,

519
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 2: it's also amplified by social media. Platforms who are getting

520
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: rich off of it. It's algorithmically, you know, surfaced for them,

521
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: and it kind of makes me feel like they don't

522
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: necessarily have a lot of tools when they're young to

523
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: steer away from that content because it's such a pull.

524
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: I bet, yeah, I really think that. Like if you're

525
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, giving the example that you gave your heartbroken

526
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: and you're a man and you just went through a

527
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: devastating heartbreak and pops up on your TikTok feeds sneak

528
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: O or Fresh and Fit talking about like why women

529
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: break men's hearts, and it's like the next five tiktoks

530
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: that are coming up, you're on the manosphere tag or

531
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: whatever you're looking at. You know, that is really going

532
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: to draw people in. And I think that is constant stimulus,

533
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: and people are being assured over and over again that

534
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: women are the problem, I think is what it is.

535
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: Especially if you're looking for that kind of content, or

536
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: like your algorithm has picked up that you're interested in

537
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: that kind of content, You're just going to get the

538
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: same talking points and the same misogyny over and over again,

539
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: and it's just going to draw you further into it.

540
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: And I just I mean, what responsibility do you think

541
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: that social media platforms have to keep that from happening,

542
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: especially to young people.

543
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: I think they need to have more terms of service

544
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: when it comes to extreme mistogyny. Honestly, I feel like

545
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: a lot of times they are pretty lax. Places like

546
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: TikTok or obviously Twitter or you know, any sort of

547
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: social media. They just don't have the kind of specificity

548
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: that they really need to have to keep women safe

549
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: on the Internet.

550
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: Do you feel it's getting worse.

551
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: On some platforms. Yeah, I mean I feel like maybe,

552
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: well maybe it's not getting worse, but the bad actors

553
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: are getting better at it. I'll say that I feel

554
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: like sometimes they're able to really talk around things. I

555
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: think that some of the bad actors are able to,

556
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, know what gets viral to sort of draw

557
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: people in. And I think that the social media platforms,

558
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, they still want to make money and they

559
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: don't want to see some of their biggest actors taken off.

560
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's an unfortunate reality, is that,

561
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, if you have someone that's bringing in a

562
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: lot of attention to a lot of clicks, they don't

563
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: want to ba them.

564
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: And if you're Elon Musk, maybe you'll give them twenty

565
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: thousand dollars and thus incentivize the next misogynistic hate manger

566
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: to get big on the platform and say, hey, I

567
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: could do that. I can say misogynistic things into a

568
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: microphone money please exactly.

569
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: If it's getting clicks, then there you go.

570
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: So you talked about how some of these bad actors

571
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: are pretty good about like coding things so that they

572
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: stay on the right side of these terms of service.

573
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: I saw something in a social media It was Nick

574
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: Flint has on the Freshian Fit podcast and they were

575
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: talking about JQ. And I was like, what the fuck

576
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: is JAQ? Then I read your piece. I was like

577
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: the Jewish question. Then I saw the host of Fresh

578
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: and Fit saying he basically bragged, saying that you know,

579
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: we're the biggest platform that's talking about the JQ. No

580
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: one else will do it. Is what's going on here?

581
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: Like what is that?

582
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: This is straight up Nazi shit. And I am being

583
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: dead serious. When you bring Nick Flintis into it, you

584
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: know he is a neo Nazi. He's a white supremacist

585
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: and a Holocaust denier. They have been talking Nick quentas

586
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: and The Freshian Fit four months about getting together and

587
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: doing this collaboration. So this was kind of the precipice

588
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: of them making of working together to make sure that

589
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: they can do this like hours an hour's long stream.

590
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: There was even a video that was going around of

591
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: Nick doing a Nazi pile in the Fresh and Fit

592
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: studio and they're talking about the Jewish Question. This is,

593
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: you know, the same thing that Adolf Hitler was talking

594
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: about when he was like, what do we do about

595
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: the Jews? And like you said, the hosts were saying,

596
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: we're the only podcast that's talking about the Jewish Question.

597
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: It's extremely extremely scary stuff to see and something that

598
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: you know is extremely well codd You know, a clip

599
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: like that where they're just talking about the JQ, something

600
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: like that could probably go on to TikTok because their

601
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: algorithms might not pick it up. Maybe they would pick

602
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: up if someone did like a hashtag Nick quentas or

603
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: something like that, but it'll just direct people. They'll direct

604
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: people back to Rumble, which is where you can see

605
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: these hour long streams.

606
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: I'm glad that you put it that way. Back when

607
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: Kanye West and Nick Quintes went to visit Trump. I

608
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: did an interview with Robert Evans, who makes the podcast

609
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: Behind the Masters, who's all about all of these shith heads,

610
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: And that was the point that he made too, which

611
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: is that Nick Fuentz is a Nazi. Like some of

612
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: these other characters, they kind of dance around it. They

613
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: you know, you could sort of be like, oh, they're

614
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: trolling maybe, but he's not in that camp. And so

615
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: that like, when you are platforming him, you're doing a

616
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: very different thing and you're sending a very different clear

617
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: signal about what you're about.

618
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I think that when you make the

619
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: decision to platform Nick quentis you are drawing a line

620
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: in the sand. You are saying, I am willing to

621
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: put a Nazi onto my show, and I'm listening and

622
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: I will hear him out. So someone like Pearl just

623
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: pearly things. As we talked about a couple of months ago,

624
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: she had him on her show.

625
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: Nick quent has actually inspired Pearl so much that she

626
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: made an entire anti Semitic song about it. When Pierce

627
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: Morgan confronted Pearl about it on his television show, here's

628
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: how she responded.

629
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 3: I mean, the point was more about cancel culture and

630
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: people getting kicked off of social media if you finished

631
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: the song. It was more about like, you can't talk

632
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: about this topic without being canceled by the left and

633
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: the right. I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

634
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: And she obviously got a lot of backlash. She took

635
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: the videos down, she put the videos back up, she

636
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: defended him, she went back and forth, but she ended

637
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: the place she ended up. She ended up being like,

638
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: I believe in free speech, so I would host him

639
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: again something like that. It's just ridiculous, and I think

640
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: that it is so so dangerous the manosphere in general,

641
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: But then to bring Nazism and neo Nazianism into it,

642
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it is just like two very scary, dangerous

643
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: world climbing.

644
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: What are some of the real world impacts of this,

645
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: because I'm certainly sure somebody listening is like, it's just

646
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: young people saying naughty words on the Internet. It doesn't

647
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: really mean anything. What is the real world impact?

648
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: Well, you know, the manosphere in general does not live

649
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: in a vacuum, so major misogyny and extreme misogyny has

650
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: led to real world violence. People like Elliott Rodgers, who

651
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: is an in cell mouth shooter. Obviously many attacks against women.

652
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: Gamer Gate twenty fifteen, when members when female members of

653
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: the video game community were attacked, sent death threats and

654
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: rape threats. These are all just examples of ways that

655
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: the manosphere has, you know, come into the real world

656
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: and has become a serious danger to people and has

657
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: affected real people's lives.

658
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, just this week, I was reading on

659
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: Twitter about a man who had posted a picture of

660
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 2: him and his wife and said, I think it was

661
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: a tweet that was like, oh, I went to Columbia

662
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: and I married, I came back with a wife. And

663
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: that person is now being accused of murdering his wife.

664
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: And you go to his tip Twitter page and it's

665
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 2: all Andrew Tait stuff. And I'm not saying that there's

666
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: nothing that like there's a deep like a deep connection,

667
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: because we don't know. It's still something that they're investigating.

668
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: But I have to imagine that somebody who is absorbing

669
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 2: content from an influencer who is saying all of these

670
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: things about how women haven't deserve rights, how if a

671
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: woman is raped she bears some responsibility, like all this stuff,

672
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how that is not creating a less

673
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: safe world for everybody, women especially, but also for the

674
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 2: men who absorb this content.

675
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think that it is making men think that,

676
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: you know, violence is sometimes an answer. When Nick was

677
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: on Pearl's show, he downplayed domestic abuse. You know, so

678
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: if you're someone who is easily influenced by like bad

679
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: actors or figures or the kind of content you're taking in,

680
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, these are people who are quick to violence

681
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: and quick to like, you know, call up arms. You know,

682
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: these are very scary people who are associated with people

683
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: that have you know, been convicted of violent acts pretty much,

684
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: people that are groipers that have followed followed Nick Fuentas,

685
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: there have been like multiple instances of these people being

686
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: charged for you know, dangerous and violent acts.

687
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

688
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: Tate and people like him make content specifically and explicitly

689
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: targeting kids. Before it was deleted from the app stores,

690
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: Tate's app The Real World said it was appropriate for

691
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: ages four and up. He even boasts about having a

692
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: six year old subscriber. Similarly, in a viral video of

693
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: sneak O meeting a handful of his fans who are

694
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: boys maybe age eight, or nine. One of them gleefully

695
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: tell sneak o fuck all women, while another says all

696
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: gay should die. What is content like this doing to

697
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: a generation of young men. It's really scary. And I

698
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: read about how Andrew Tate's content. I read a piece

699
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: about how teachers and schools, like people who work with

700
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: young people his content specifically is causing, is leading to

701
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 2: disruptions where you know, young men will who like Andrew Tate,

702
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: will start bringing his content into the classroom and it

703
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: just creates a very unsafe, chaotic environment, especially for like

704
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: the young, like like young kids, elementary school kids.

705
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: So Insider had a report, it was a couple of

706
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: months back now, and it said that there was an

707
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: eleven year old who was repeating Andrew tait content and

708
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: who was pretty much saying that he like idolized him.

709
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, when people are looking

710
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: up to these these like people like Andrew Tat or

711
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: even Nick Fuentas, I think you're going to see it

712
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: in schools, You'll see it with young young people. And

713
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: you know Nick Flintis, I've watched plenty of his streams.

714
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes he speaks directly to the high schoolers that are

715
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: listening to his show, so to kind of give you

716
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: an idea of like how young this is going. These influencers,

717
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: they and bad actors that they know who's listening, and

718
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: it's it's young kids, and it's very impressionable, susceptible young people.

719
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: M and I have this theory and I would love

720
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: to know your thoughts that, even if you are not

721
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: somebody who likes the Andrew Tate whatever, subscribe to a

722
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 2: fresh and fit whatever, be watching Nick Fuentez. The way

723
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: that these clips have taken of these people speaking have

724
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: taken over social media, whether or not you follow them,

725
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: like I see them and I obviously don't like these people.

726
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: I think that that is trickling down into wider society.

727
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: So even people who don't think of themselves as like

728
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: men's rights types, they might be absorbing, casually absorbing some

729
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: of these attitudes without even really realizing it because they

730
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: are so ubiquitous on our platforms. What do you think

731
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: about that?

732
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see I can definitely see that. I

733
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: think that if it's showing up in your TikTok feed enough,

734
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's just getting into your subconscious I mean

735
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: maybe that sounds a little conspiracy theory of me. But

736
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: I do feel like it's it's coming into you know,

737
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: the Overton window for what we think is like misogyny

738
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: feels to be shifting a little bit. You know, it's

739
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: just something that you feel in the air. Obviously, it's

740
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: not something that I can like point to exactly, but

741
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: it's sometimes you just you just feel it. And I

742
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: think that's kind of what you were describing as well.

743
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: It's just something that you know, you can just tell

744
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: in the way that people talk. Yes, sometimes in the

745
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: last like couple of years, and it's it's kind of

746
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: what got me interested in the manosphere too. I mean,

747
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: it was just like it's something I felt in my

748
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: own life and it's something that I was seeing online.

749
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: And I think as a gay man, I see it

750
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: in my community a lot, a lot of misogyny, and

751
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: it's like, honestly, within the last year or two, it's

752
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: like it's what some gay man might think is funny, honestly,

753
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: honestly just ends up being like hurtful to women or

754
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: like could end up just being dangerous. And I just

755
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: think that's part of it as well.

756
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: How did you get into caring about and researching and

757
00:40:58,719 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: following this kind of content.

758
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: So first I was just doing extremism, so I was

759
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: really mostly just following obviously normal right wing media. I

760
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: was following Steve Bannon when I first started at Media Matters,

761
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: and then I got particularly interested in a Quintus And

762
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: then I think that as my TikTok algorithm started to

763
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: change and shift a little bit, I started to get

764
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: Manosphere content, and I think I just kind of fell

765
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: into it too. I was like, who are these people

766
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: and how do they why do they keep showing up

767
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: on my feed and why do they have so many

768
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: likes and follows? And I feel like that's kind of

769
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: what first, like initially kind of threw me into it.

770
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: And I also started to follow Aiden Ross as I

771
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: was talking about the streamer and him and Andrew Tate

772
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: have like this serious, very strange romance, and that's honestly

773
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 1: what brought me over to kind of like the hate

774
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: speech world of it all as well.

775
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so what is it like following this, Because I mean,

776
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 2: I have a separate TikTok account that I use for

777
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: like following nonsense just so that my personal TikTok account

778
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: will not be all nonsense. But I'm just trying to

779
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: watch TikTok's What has it been like for you personally

780
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: to have to like be mired in all this all

781
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 2: the time?

782
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, it can be really hard some days. I

783
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: feel like for me, after working at Media Matters for

784
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: nearly three years, I've like really found a good way

785
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: to pace myself kind of taking in this content. I

786
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: think that, honestly, as a gay Jewish man, seeing a

787
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: lot of the anti Semitism and a lot of the

788
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: homophobia and anti Pride month stuff has really been the

789
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 1: hardest for me. I do think that it's really about

790
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: pacing yourself when it comes to how I can kind

791
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,959
Speaker 1: of handle all of it. I also just think that

792
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: the manisphere in particular, I feel like is very reactionary

793
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: to the moment, which means it's just like very fast paced.

794
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: There's always something new happening. The world of kind of

795
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: extremism feels a little bit slower, So I feel like

796
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: also just making sure that you know, I have people

797
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: on my team that if I can't handle something or

798
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: things are just happening too quickly, there are other like

799
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: colleagues of mine that I feel like I can really

800
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: hand it off to. And I can really trust them

801
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: with the content and the research as well.

802
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: I'm glad you feel like you have that support. I'm interested.

803
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: Do you see all of this stuff that's kind of connected,

804
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: like the anti Pride stuff, is that sort of connected

805
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 2: to the manosphere stuff, Like is this all linked in

806
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: some way in your mind?

807
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I really think that, especially in this last year,

808
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: the manosphere like they dove head first into the anti

809
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: lgbt Q rhetoric and the anti trans rhetoric. There was

810
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: a day in June where Andrew Tate thought it would

811
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: be so hilarious to be like, I'm a trans woman

812
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: and then just started tweeting constantly all day about being trans.

813
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: It was really disgusting and something that I think you

814
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: would really only find on El Mosk's Twitter. And another

815
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: horrible example Sninko, who we were talking about before, he

816
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: wrote the words Pride month on a shooting target and

817
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: then went outside with automatic rifles and they were shooting

818
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: at it him and a couple of his buddies. So

819
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: it is just it is just really extreme, the anti

820
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: LGBTQ rhetoric, and it is it is honestly from the manosphere.

821
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: Some of the some of the more scary stuff that

822
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: I've seen. It is it is really hard to see.

823
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 2: Shit is so fucked up. And you know, I don't

824
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: know how you feel about this. The way that I

825
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 2: have what I've been sort of saying is that even

826
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: for people who have a problem with trans people or

827
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: queer people, most people aren't doing this like this, Like

828
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: this is such a different thing. Taking the time out

829
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 2: of your day to write Pride month on a target

830
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: and then go film yourself shooting at it or film

831
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: yourself demol wishing a target Pride section. That is not normal.

832
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: And I think that the thing that worries me is

833
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: that it's signaling to people that, oh, this is normal behavior,

834
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: Like if you have a problem with queer people or

835
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,479
Speaker 2: trans people, this is an appropriate way to to deal

836
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: with that. And I think that there are plenty of

837
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: people who probably do have problems with trans people and

838
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: queer people, but this is such a different thing, Like

839
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: I feel like they're telling these people that this is

840
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: an appropriate way to express whatever bigotries that you have,

841
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: And that's what really scares me.

842
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: I do think that people like Sneako, when they do

843
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: like a stunt like that, it is to get clicks.

844
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: But I also think it's normalizing it as well. I

845
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: think it's exactly what you described. I think that they

846
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: are thinking like, oh, if this is funny and Sneako

847
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: can do it, then like it's cool if I do

848
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: it as well, or if someone wants to, you know,

849
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: pretend to be a trans person online just to mock

850
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: them then and if your het is getting a bunch

851
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: of clicks, then like yeah, sure, why I can do

852
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: that as well. And also Pearl just pearly things as well,

853
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: has been she plays or semi professional volleyball. I think

854
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 1: over in England that I think that's her like full

855
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: time job outside of being a commentator, and she's been

856
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: like fighting with them about her anti trans rhetoric and

857
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: it has really only made her anti LGBT rhetoric like

858
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: so much worse. I think that people like her they

859
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: are just like so so angry. She has so much anger,

860
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: and people like Andrew Tay they are they have so

861
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: much anger, and like you just wonder where it comes from.

862
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: And like sometimes it's just so obvious that it's not

863
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: actually towards the LGBT community, but that's where they're putting it,

864
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: and it's it's ridiculous and it's dangerous and scary. As

865
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: I've said a couple of times.

866
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's I've noticed the same thing is like,

867
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: there are plenty of things that I don't like in society.

868
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 2: I don't dedicate my time to like obsessed it in

869
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: this way. And also like some of the Andrew t

870
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: Hat and Fresh and Fit, Like there's two clips that

871
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: stick in my mind of them, like ranting, like Andrew

872
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: Tate ranting about how like he doesn't eat breakfast because

873
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: he starts his day with caffeine and and nicotine and

874
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 2: hate running through his veins, and like there's this clip

875
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: of I think it's I'm blaking the host's name, but

876
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: like screaming into the microphone about how when he was

877
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: playing too many, too many video games, women didn't give

878
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: him the time of day and how that was so horrible.

879
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 2: It's like they have such deep, clear reservoirs of hate

880
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: and anger. And also they're telling people, don't you want

881
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: to be like me? Not really like I want to

882
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: wake up and have a nice breakfast. I don't want

883
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 2: to start my day with hate and pain and caffeine

884
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: and nicotine. I actually would love to have a nice

885
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: breakfast that actually sounds nice. Do I want to be

886
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: foaming into a microphone spewing hate and anger about all

887
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 2: the women who've done me wrong? Not really, That actually

888
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: doesn't seem appealing. And so it's it's very interesting how

889
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 2: so much of their ethos, like you said, is based

890
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: around be like me, but they don't actually seem very

891
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: happy and facts quite the opposite.

892
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, aren't you guys exhausted? Like watching you guys,

893
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted, like being that angry all the time, and like,

894
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what it's getting for

895
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: you guys, but like it's just it shocks me, It really.

896
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: Does, and I just think it it's shocking, and it presents,

897
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: like for young men, like they can have a different

898
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: kind of life, they can have different kinds of relationships,

899
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: they can have meaningful, fulfilling relationships based on communication, trust, honesty, openness,

900
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 2: respect and all of that, Like that is possible for everybody,

901
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 2: and I just think it presents such an empty worldview

902
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 2: that in the end traps them as well. We talk

903
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: a lot rightly about the ways that this kind of

904
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: content is a danger for women, which it is, but

905
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: it's also such a danger to these men who are

906
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: being sold a lie that this is all they can have,

907
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: when in reality they can have so much more. The

908
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 2: world is so much more open and available to them

909
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 2: having a different kind of experience. But this content and

910
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: this dynamic just keeps them trapped, probably miserable and ultimately

911
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: lacking an agency.

912
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: And I just think poor, Yeah, it is draining their

913
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: bank accounts as well. They think that they're getting so

914
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: much out of it that they really just an't.

915
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god, if, like I wrote a piece for

916
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: the Nation about fresh and fits like online school, if

917
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 2: you're sending these grifters six hundred dollars a month, please

918
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: do like that money would be so much better spent elsewhere.

919
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I mean, when when the example that

920
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: you're trying to follow is Andrew Tate, who was like

921
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: literally running in MLM, you know, you'd think that people

922
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 1: would know better, but you know they don't.

923
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: Why does so much of this content take off in

924
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 2: the podcast space? Like why do all these people have podcasts?

925
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: Even if their podcast is like them with six people

926
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 2: in a room and they're just videotaping it and they're

927
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 2: calling it a podcast, it's a peeve of mine. What

928
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 2: is it about the podcast space that draws these charlatans in.

929
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: I think that if you can put a microphone in

930
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: front of someone, that means that they are allowed to

931
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: speak their mind any which way that they want. And

932
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that's actually reality, but I think that

933
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: with that setup, it lends itself to that kind of

934
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: rhetoric and that kind of critique and that kind of

935
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: discussion and discourse something like Fresh and Fit where there's

936
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 1: like twelve microphones on the table, Like this really isn't

937
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: how a podcast is working. Like I assume most people

938
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: that are watching it are watching it for like the

939
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: video form. So I just think that the podcast of

940
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: it all, I'll say, the podcast format out of it

941
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: all really just like it's lending itself to, you know,

942
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 1: a format which lends itself to a specific specific type

943
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: of discourse.

944
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I could talk all this is like

945
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: such a thing with me. Where the look of a podcast, yeah,

946
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 2: where there's like twelve microphones. First of all, that is

947
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: too many fucking people to be on a podcast. It's

948
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 2: so like already just to tell you something's going on.

949
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: But the thing on TikTok that really gets a lot

950
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: of traction. Is yeah, headphones and microphone that might not

951
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 2: even be plugged in, like the aesthetic of I'm having

952
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: serious discourse or like I'm going to tell you how

953
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: I really think in an intimate way. I think that

954
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: a lot of these influencers are able to rely on

955
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 2: the aesthetic of podcasts and what that brings to push

956
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: their horrible messages out in a way that kind of

957
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 2: shields them from criticism, I believe, because if it was

958
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 2: just somebody in their car making this video, you'd be like,

959
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: who is this nobody next? But like, oh, he's got

960
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 2: a microphone and headphones. Let's listen to what he's got

961
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: to say.

962
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: Rights if he has a microphone in front of him,

963
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 1: then I should maybe be taking him seriously. I think

964
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: is the thought that these people have, Like if I

965
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: if I have a big, fancy y any mic or

966
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: whatever I have, and I got my big, expensive over

967
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: the head earphones on, then like this person might mean something.

968
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: This person has the ability to put a podcast out,

969
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: and maybe that would also carries some weight to it.

970
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes when I'm watching these smaller like

971
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 1: right wing media figures that are doing podcasts for my job.

972
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: I'm like, is there are they uploading this anywhere? Or

973
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: they just like click start on photo booth and like

974
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: sit in front of their microphone and just kind of

975
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: like run with it. I actually don't know. I would

976
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: love to sometimes, I would love to see people set up.

977
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 3: No.

978
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: I have definitely one hundred percent seen TikTok clips where

979
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 2: it's like that I know that that mic is not on.

980
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: I know it's not on. That is just a prop

981
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: to make us, to make us feel some kind of

982
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: way about what you're saying. Absolutely, so just an let's

983
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: say that somebody listening has somebody in their life kind

984
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: of asking for selfish reasons, because I apparently do have

985
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: somebody in my life who is watching this kind of

986
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: content and you're worried about them. Do you have any

987
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: tips for how we might approach that.

988
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 1: I think that finding good content to replace the bad

989
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: content is a great place to start when it comes

990
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: like talking about masculinity. I also think that being able

991
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: to show people the worst parts of these influencers is

992
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: a really important aspect. So kind of like your family

993
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: member where they're like, oh, well, I see the grindset

994
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: of it all. I see him like smoking his cigars.

995
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, but do you do you see him

996
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, hitting women or talking bad about

997
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community. I think that what is important is

998
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: kind of talking to the values of the people that

999
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: are watching these influencers that maybe you can hit on

1000
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 1: in a different way. So if your family member cares

1001
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: about lgbt TQ rights, if your family member cares about

1002
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, violence against women, it's you know, directing the

1003
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: attention towards different aspects of these influencers that maybe they

1004
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: don't see on TikTok or they don't see directly online,

1005
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: but are definitely there if you sit and listen and

1006
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: do a little bit of research.

1007
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,959
Speaker 2: That's really good advice. And I think the point about

1008
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: like replacing the content that they're currently consuming with something else,

1009
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 2: it's such a good one. And I think it really

1010
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 2: speaks to how like that bad actors and their ability

1011
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 2: to seize gaps in information and content. Because you know,

1012
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: I'm probably like you, I'm part of like coalitions and

1013
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: panels about about like how we speak to different groups,

1014
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: And one that comes up time and time again is

1015
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 2: like this entire generation of disaffected young people a lot

1016
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 2: of whom are men that were just not speaking to right,

1017
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 2: Like nobody is actually in a meaningful way seeing them

1018
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: speaking to their issues at least they don't feel that way.

1019
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 2: And the people who are getting their ears and eyes

1020
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 2: are these charlatans with a dangerous message. And so I

1021
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 2: do think part of it is being all of us

1022
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: who make content being a little bit better about making content.

1023
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 2: That helps so that these bad actors are not able

1024
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 2: to seize these massive gaps where there is no content

1025
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: filling that gap.

1026
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: I really like that idea. It really comes down to,

1027
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: like the messaging, like who is the messaging for? And

1028
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of that when it comes

1029
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: to like political messaging, is like we're really aiming towards

1030
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: this one demographic, whether that be young people or like

1031
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: older voters or someone like that. But I feel like

1032
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, when we're creating content

1033
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: and we're being you know, influencers, these influencers, I don't

1034
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: think that there are a lot of people out there

1035
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: that their initial thought is I want to do I

1036
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: want to do good things for young men. I don't

1037
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: think that people really I don't think that's something that

1038
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: people really think of right off the bat, and maybe

1039
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: that just needs to be you know, looked at from

1040
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: a different lens. I don't I'm not totally sure how

1041
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: to get people to how to get people there. I

1042
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: guess I don't know how to get the message across

1043
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: and get the message out. It feels it feels like

1044
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: an important fight in something we can talk about in

1045
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: circles and circles, But I'm not sure what the next

1046
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: step would always be to get people to create better

1047
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: content that can replace the bad content.

1048
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: When you think about the future of where we are

1049
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 2: with this kind of content and our discourse more generally online,

1050
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 2: are you hopeful? Are you where are you at?

1051
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: Not hopeful? I think that these bad actors are getting

1052
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: better and better at what they do, and I see

1053
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: I see people like you and me who are you know,

1054
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: doing the work to point out and talk about it.

1055
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 1: But I think that there needs to be more people

1056
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: like us, especially men like me, who are willing to

1057
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 1: call it out. I think that I think it would

1058
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: be great if there were more, you know, people in

1059
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: the queer community, people that are men that are willing

1060
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: to you know, speak up. I feel like I'm not

1061
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: seeing it. If I'm being honest, then that makes me sad.

1062
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1063
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 2: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

1064
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

1065
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: for today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No

1066
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad.

1067
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland

1068
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: is our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and

1069
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1070
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 2: bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate

1071
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1072
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 2: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1073
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.

1074
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 3: All the wells, well and well listen