WEBVTT - Bone Valley Q&A with Gilbert King - Hosted by Maggie Freleng

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<v Speaker 1>Gilbert King, Hello, it's great to see you. I just

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<v Speaker 1>finished listening to season two, and I did not think

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<v Speaker 1>it was possible to be better or equal to one.

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't say better, but it is absolutely fantastic, and

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<v Speaker 1>I have to say it is the most perfect epilogue

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<v Speaker 1>to season one. I don't think I would have wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to hear something different.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really nice. I don't know what to say to.

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<v Speaker 1>That, but yeah, well, I know you guys struggled a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit. Season two's are very difficult to make.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah it is, and you're trying to figure out what

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<v Speaker 2>do people already know and what don't they know? And

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<v Speaker 2>why is this even worth doing? Is it just seemed

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<v Speaker 2>like we're tagging on a bunch of bonus episode, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know? But thanks for saying that, because you know

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't come together easily, that's for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely so. I can feel the heart and care for

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<v Speaker 1>these characters, and I do want to talk about that

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<v Speaker 1>a bit. But the first thing that is on most

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<v Speaker 1>people's minds is how is Leo? What is his condition?

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<v Speaker 1>How is he?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, you know, Leo, we've gotten a really bad

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<v Speaker 2>motorcycle lax in January, and he was confined to a

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<v Speaker 2>bed for three months, couldn't get out, couldn't bear weight,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was pretty bad. He broke a lot of bones,

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<v Speaker 2>his back, torn bladder and it was horrific injuries. And

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<v Speaker 2>his daughter was riding on back and she had some

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<v Speaker 2>pretty severe injuries too. And so I was just down

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<v Speaker 2>there recently and he's finally out of bed and he

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<v Speaker 2>can get into a wheelchair.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>He's still got some leg issues that he's trying to

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<v Speaker 2>deal with, but overall, I would say he's markedly improved.

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<v Speaker 2>His mood is much better because he can get out.

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<v Speaker 2>He can actually drive a car now, he's got one

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<v Speaker 2>good leg and so he's able to do that, and

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<v Speaker 2>that makes a big difference psychologically, And so he's healing.

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<v Speaker 2>He didn't think he would play guitar again. His wrists

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<v Speaker 2>were just completely smashed. He's had six surgeries on his hands,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was playing guitar. He still got a cast on,

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<v Speaker 2>he's still got some more surgeries. Picture with the cast

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<v Speaker 2>and him holding yeah, So he's like that makes a

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<v Speaker 2>big difference psychologically. So I think he's really made really

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<v Speaker 2>solid strides to getting back to Noise, even though I

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<v Speaker 2>doubt he'll ever be fully one hundred percent.

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<v Speaker 1>You didn't really feature his daughter in this season. Was

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<v Speaker 1>there a reason for that?

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<v Speaker 2>No, not really. You know, it's just like she just

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really have a role in this you know, Chrissy

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<v Speaker 2>was just barely in it too. We sort of just

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<v Speaker 2>pivoted away from Leo a little bit more into the

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<v Speaker 2>other side, Jeremy's side, and so it sort of limited

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<v Speaker 2>the amount of people we could really concentrate on. I

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<v Speaker 2>would it would be nice to give some more updates

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<v Speaker 2>on the whole you know, Bone Valley universe, I guess

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<v Speaker 2>you'd say, And we may do that at some point soon,

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<v Speaker 2>but but this time we were just trying to be

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<v Speaker 2>as tightly focused on Jeremy in this part of the story.

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<v Speaker 1>So listeners also really want to know about Jeremy and

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<v Speaker 1>Leo's relationship. Now, did they keep one? Have they spoken again?

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<v Speaker 2>They have not spoken again yet. You know, it's interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just a very difficult thing for Leo to do.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why I think it really worked well is

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<v Speaker 2>that he was so spontaneous. Jeremy had called me and

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<v Speaker 2>I just happened to be standing there with Leo, and

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<v Speaker 2>I just spontaneously said, do you guys want to talk,

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<v Speaker 2>and they did, but I'm not sure Leo, would you

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<v Speaker 2>reach out to Jeremy and want to have further conversations

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<v Speaker 2>with him. I think he'd be happy to meet with him,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's just not something with Jeremy in prison. He's

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<v Speaker 2>back in solitary confinement and Leos still struggling with health

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. We haven't even been thinking about that.

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<v Speaker 2>But at some point, because Leo went through that CTP program,

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<v Speaker 2>the Transition program, he is able to go into prisons again,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he can actually visit Jeremy, and he said

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<v Speaker 2>he wants to do that sometimes. Yeah, he does. And

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<v Speaker 2>Jeremy specifically said, you know, I hope someday I can

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<v Speaker 2>sit face to face with Leo and apologize for what

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<v Speaker 2>I've done. And I think they would both get something

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<v Speaker 2>out of that experience. I know both of them would,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think it will happen at some point,

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<v Speaker 2>but right now, there's just too much going on between

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<v Speaker 2>both of them.

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<v Speaker 1>When we last heard from Jeremy, he was writing with

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<v Speaker 1>Justin and he was wanting to do better. He was

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<v Speaker 1>not in the hole at that time. He was out. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>can you talk about what happened you know.

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<v Speaker 2>What it is is he got transferred back to a

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<v Speaker 2>facility where he'd been several years ago and where he

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<v Speaker 2>had some incidents, including the stabbing incident. And so he

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<v Speaker 2>went back there and there were some people there that

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<v Speaker 2>had grudges and he he didn't feel safe there. I

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<v Speaker 2>think at one point he'd gotten into a fight with

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<v Speaker 2>an inmate. Wasn't really much of a fight. Jeremy told

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<v Speaker 2>me the guy just beat him up, and so he

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<v Speaker 2>sort of requested that he go back in the solitary.

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<v Speaker 2>He felt safer there. And you know, Jeremy's not the

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<v Speaker 2>most how to describe this, but he's not the most

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<v Speaker 2>thoughtful person when it comes to how do I protect

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<v Speaker 2>myself and get back in? And so he ended up

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<v Speaker 2>having a conversation with an authority and they said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not that easy, and then he just said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll hurt somebody and get back in. And by saying that,

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<v Speaker 2>he got back in. So he's back and see him too,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I don't know, he's not really able to

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<v Speaker 2>have visitors until he gets another I think, another move

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<v Speaker 2>up in the stratosphere of CMS. But they are still

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<v Speaker 2>writing to each other and they do want to meet

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<v Speaker 2>Jeremy and his son Justin. They do want to meet its.

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<v Speaker 2>Jeremy makes it a little difficult sometimes with his behavior

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<v Speaker 2>in the prisons.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, where is Justin's thought process at at this moment?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I think Justin's also got He just moved,

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<v Speaker 2>he changed jobs, he's got a new family, a new child,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he's been a little bit like this is

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<v Speaker 2>my priority right now. But he told me, look, it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to start clearing up right around now, and I

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<v Speaker 2>want to start revisiting this again. So I think he

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<v Speaker 2>will get back into it. And you know, he's been writing,

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<v Speaker 2>but he hasn't really made an effort to get up

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<v Speaker 2>there yet. And he needs me for that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be there for that too.

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<v Speaker 1>I really love I haven't listened to any other podcasts where,

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<v Speaker 1>without beating you over the head with it, we're exploring

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<v Speaker 1>male emotions and these things that men don't often talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>And hearing you know, Jeremy, this like big tough guy,

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<v Speaker 1>prisoner murderer talk about these very intimate things. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>just tell me a bit about your thought process when

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<v Speaker 1>you guys decided to leave so much of that in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's just these are the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>conversations I tended to have with him. He didn't really

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<v Speaker 2>try to pull the tough guy routine at me. He

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<v Speaker 2>sounded very broken early in the beginning when I started

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<v Speaker 2>talking to him. He was just always in a really

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<v Speaker 2>bad place, just bad things were happening to him. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think the market difference I noticed is when I

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<v Speaker 2>started sending them books, and he wanted to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the books he was reading, and you know, he read

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of Westerns and some James Patterson, Stephen King

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff. But I would send them, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>books that my kids were reading back in the day,

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<v Speaker 2>like Game of Thrones and and Hunger Games and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that, just because I thought something more modern and

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<v Speaker 2>I was familiar with these stories, and he talked about

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<v Speaker 2>them in a way like, you know, he really lamented

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<v Speaker 2>the way the author was killing off the characters and

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<v Speaker 2>of Thrones, and how much he liked, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>adventure part of Hunger Games. And I just felt like

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<v Speaker 2>he was talking to me differently than he was in

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning, and he would get emotional about things and

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<v Speaker 2>he would show this kind of empathy, and then he

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<v Speaker 2>started speaking about his remorse and his great you know,

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<v Speaker 2>regrets in life, you know, disappointing his family, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the way I've always talked with Leo. We talked

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<v Speaker 2>about those kind of things and he just fell right

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<v Speaker 2>into it. And I didn't feel like I was forcing

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<v Speaker 2>him to talk about more sensitive things. They were really

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<v Speaker 2>coming from him, and I really enjoyed hearing that side

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<v Speaker 2>of him. For some reason. It was just it just

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<v Speaker 2>made me see a different side of him. There were

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<v Speaker 2>stories he would tell about his childhood sometimes that it

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<v Speaker 2>were just like made him laugh, and you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>would just have these recollections that maybe hadn't thought about

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<v Speaker 2>in a while, and just to hear somebody in those

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<v Speaker 2>dire conditions laugh about something a memory really moved me emotionally.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when he was willing to explore that, I

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<v Speaker 2>just kept going there. And I don't regret it at all.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there's times where I get really emotionally. You

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<v Speaker 2>can hear me and especially talking to Justin, We're likely

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<v Speaker 2>you can hear me kind of sniffle in the background,

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<v Speaker 2>but like that's just the way we roll.

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<v Speaker 1>I know I'm about to cry and thinking about the

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<v Speaker 1>at the end where he says he'll claim his body. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you know that talking about death in prison is something

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<v Speaker 1>And this brings me to the next thing I want

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about. When I was doing the

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<v Speaker 1>Suave podcast, you know, that was one of the first

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<v Speaker 1>things Swabi said when you get to prison is they

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<v Speaker 1>ask you where do you want your body sent? And

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<v Speaker 1>so then to hear Jeremy talking about something that I

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<v Speaker 1>knew was something they ask and he's been thinking about that, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it's really bad for him because he's

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<v Speaker 2>lost touch with his family. Yeah, and so for like

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<v Speaker 2>over a decade, he just hasn't had any corresponds. He

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<v Speaker 2>didn't know where they were, like, he couldn't get anything

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<v Speaker 2>from them. So I was giving him updates, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think by talking about the people in his past, he

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<v Speaker 2>was thinking about those connections again and the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>being you know, very In that prison cemetery up there,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a pretty dismal place. I mean literally, they have,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the prison's license plant tag and prints up

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<v Speaker 2>your name, your date of death, and your prison number

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<v Speaker 2>and that's it. And they're just out in the field

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<v Speaker 2>and it's just not really well maintained, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's no flowers there, and I don't know what.

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<v Speaker 1>He's seen or heard of potters Field.

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<v Speaker 2>It is Potter's Field. And I just think the idea

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<v Speaker 2>of just not being able to get out of that prison,

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<v Speaker 2>even in death, just really depressed him. And he was

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<v Speaker 2>talking about it a lot. And you know, so then

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<v Speaker 2>they hear Justin say I'll claim him. I just that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of blew me away. I wasn't even expecting that.

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<v Speaker 1>So how do you navigate that line between your emotional

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<v Speaker 1>involvement with these people and being able to tell the

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<v Speaker 1>story objectively? I don't think you do you consider yourself

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<v Speaker 1>a journalist?

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<v Speaker 2>Not really. I mean I used journalism sure in it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I never came up from that background. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was just thinking about this just yesterday because like

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, like I Jeremy Books, and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if like if I worked for like a journal,

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<v Speaker 2>like a newspaper like the New York Times, I'd be

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>You would not be allowed to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a groundbreaking thing that enabled me to develop

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of you know, compassion, but also just this

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<v Speaker 2>bond with Jeremy over books, and it kind of fit perfectly.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm a writer, like let's talk about books.

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<v Speaker 2>And we talked about that, and I just feel like

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<v Speaker 2>it opened up a great and I would hate to

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<v Speaker 2>not have that tool in my toolbox to do this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of things. And so like, I don't I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like as long as I'm sort of being

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<v Speaker 2>honest with the subject, being honest with myself and trying

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<v Speaker 2>to respect listeners, you know, you don't want to be like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm you know, I'm also trying to get Jeremy out

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<v Speaker 2>of prison. That's my goal here. You know, like nobody

0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.040
<v Speaker 2>wants Jeremy out of prison. He can't get out of prison.

0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.760
<v Speaker 2>He's too violent, he has no self control, he's not

0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.880
<v Speaker 2>someone you want out there. But then I just thought, well,

0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.400
<v Speaker 2>what's the best thing you can hope for from Jeremy?

0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:58.440
<v Speaker 2>And even if I was a prosecutor, I think the

0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.880
<v Speaker 2>same answer would be, you know that he just admits

0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to what he did and maybe tries to ease the

0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.319
<v Speaker 2>suffering of the victims and the families and victims that

0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.600
<v Speaker 2>he's hurt. That's about the best you can hope for him.

0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.400
<v Speaker 2>And that's what he was doing. And so to me,

0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.080
<v Speaker 2>it was like a win win. I've gotten letters from

0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.280
<v Speaker 2>people in the Florida Corrections high level people that you know,

0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.720
<v Speaker 2>have told me that you have no idea how good

0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:24.120
<v Speaker 2>this is for the entire system, to show that to

0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.440
<v Speaker 2>establish connections with family, it's one of the most important

0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.520
<v Speaker 2>things for prisoners. So we thank you. And I was like,

0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I didn't expect to get.

0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 1>That from these No, that's really interesting. Actually, can you

0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:35.360
<v Speaker 1>elaborate on that a little bit? So when you were

0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.480
<v Speaker 1>helping Jeremy connect with family, yeah, they said to you,

0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:39.720
<v Speaker 1>this is good for everyone.

0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, they came out to me after they heard the podcast, okay,

0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.480
<v Speaker 2>and one of the guys wrote me a letter, and

0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.439
<v Speaker 2>in fact, he said, you know, I was the one

0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.600
<v Speaker 2>that set up the field mission program in the Florida

0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Department of Corrections, so I knew who Leo was, and

0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.120
<v Speaker 2>I just want to say, like, I listened to your

0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.280
<v Speaker 2>podcast and like that what you're doing by bringing families

0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:03.440
<v Speaker 2>closer together, it improved behavior of people like Jeremy. And

0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:05.880
<v Speaker 2>he was like thankful for it. And you know, I

0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.520
<v Speaker 2>ended up talking to Leo about it and Leo says,

0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.400
<v Speaker 2>I know that guy, like it's amazing, Like this guy,

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:11.720
<v Speaker 2>I can't believe he wrote you that letter.

0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.559
<v Speaker 2>So you know, so, I always felt like we were

0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.679
<v Speaker 2>doing this conscientiously. We're not trying to expose the prisons

0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.760
<v Speaker 2>as being, you know, these horrible, violent places. That's part

0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.320
<v Speaker 2>of the story, but we're showing another side to it

0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.640
<v Speaker 2>where you know, someone's trying to get some kind of

0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.560
<v Speaker 2>redemption and turn his life around in a positive way,

0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.439
<v Speaker 2>and that that can never be a bad thing.

0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely.

0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.000
<v Speaker 3>I know a lot of cops and they get asked

0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 3>all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.640
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated

0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 3>to a future where the answer will always be no.

0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 3>This is Absolute Season one Taser Incorporated.

0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.800
<v Speaker 2>I get right back there and it's bad.

0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.600
<v Speaker 4>Listen to all episodes of Absolute Season one Taser Incorporated

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.920
<v Speaker 4>on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:13.480
<v Speaker 4>your podcasts.

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.880
<v Speaker 1>So people want to know, is the State of Florida

0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.800
<v Speaker 1>ever going to admit it's wrongdoing in this Do you

0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.160
<v Speaker 1>think they're moving?

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, I do believe that they will, as a

0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 2>general state will admit that they got this wrong. I

0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.240
<v Speaker 2>don't think the circuit where this case took place, I

0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.880
<v Speaker 2>don't think they'll ever admit they got it wrong. But

0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.280
<v Speaker 2>I do think that. You know, there's some powerful people

0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.800
<v Speaker 2>in Leo's corner that are pushing for this. And I've

0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.480
<v Speaker 2>gone through this before in Florida. When I wrote DEVI

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:47.880
<v Speaker 2>on the grove, I felt the momentum build and I

0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.520
<v Speaker 2>felt politician saying we got to fix this. This is

0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 2>just embarrassing. And I think Leo's case is similar. I mean,

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 2>anyone who looks into it, you know pretty much that

0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.920
<v Speaker 2>you got the wrong guy and that he should never

0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.160
<v Speaker 2>have been convicted. But he did get convicted, and but

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:06.360
<v Speaker 2>that needs to be corrected. And I have high confidence

0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.920
<v Speaker 2>that this is going to happen. I don't know when,

0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:10.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if it'll be with the same governor,

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how it's going to look. But I

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.840
<v Speaker 2>have no doubt that this is going to happen. And

0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.960
<v Speaker 2>just because I think Florida understands unlike a lot of

0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.600
<v Speaker 2>other states, Florida understands that the integrity of the criminal

0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>justice system is also at play, and it improves the

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 2>integrity by addressing these past injustices to just say, you

0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:30.640
<v Speaker 2>know what, that was wrong, we got that wrong. We're

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 2>not just going to sweep it under rug and not

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 2>admit we blew it. Let's let's just be honest about this,

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:37.920
<v Speaker 2>And I've seen them do it in the past, and

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:39.960
<v Speaker 2>so I have confidence that it's going to happen again.

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.480
<v Speaker 1>This isn't necessary like on record or whatever. But that's

0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.480
<v Speaker 1>interesting about Florida because I feel like we never often

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 1>cover case innocence cases from there, and that makes me

0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 1>think that they're not really being proactive. Like I don't

0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.160
<v Speaker 1>know too many innocence cases down there that are high

0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's not that easy. I shouldn't really separate

0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.880
<v Speaker 2>so much, but I just I've seen it. I've seen

0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 2>it happen in the past, exonerations coming out of Florida

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and admitting they got it wrong. And it's just to me,

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 2>it's just that's what I'm clinging to, Like I've seen

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.960
<v Speaker 2>this happen in the past. I've been involved with some

0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 2>of them in the past, you know. But there are

0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.800
<v Speaker 2>some really tricky innocence cases down there. If you talk

0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:18.720
<v Speaker 2>to Seth Miller, a to the Innocence Project, he could

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.600
<v Speaker 2>probably tell you how frustrating the state is. But I'm

0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 2>only mostly looking through the lens of the cases I

0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.120
<v Speaker 2>get involved in that I do expect some kind of

0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:28.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, movement on this.

0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm just thinking like when I think of states

0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.440
<v Speaker 1>with like mass exonerations and thinking like Michigan. You see

0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.800
<v Speaker 1>all the guys in Michigan in Chicago. I didn't think

0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:37.600
<v Speaker 1>Florida was doing so much.

0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 2>No, they're doing individual cases. I think, you know, in

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.360
<v Speaker 2>the cases I look at in Florida for the most part,

0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 2>and this is a generalization, but I think it's more

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.880
<v Speaker 2>like one prosecutor's office. It's not like the police. I mean, granted,

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>there are those kind of cases out there, but in

0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 2>the case I've looked at, it seems to be the

0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>prosecuted office so really fighting for that conviction and maybe

0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.800
<v Speaker 2>willing to ben some ethical rules to get there. Whereas

0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:05.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, even in the Leo's case, like, I don't

0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 2>think the police did a really bad job on it.

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I think they were you know, they didn't have the

0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.120
<v Speaker 2>manpower they needed, and there was a lot of unsolved

0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.080
<v Speaker 2>murders happening, a lot of administrative complications. But I think

0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.320
<v Speaker 2>mostly they did a pretty good job and they couldn't

0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 2>solve the case. And that's when the prosecutor came in

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.960
<v Speaker 2>and said, I'll fix it. And that's when everything started changing.

0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.960
<v Speaker 2>All the evidence suddenly got beautiful, and you know that

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 2>the police after sixteen months couldn't put that together. But

0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.240
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor comes in and all of a sudden, case changes. Yeah, yeah,

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:33.080
<v Speaker 2>I know what happened there.

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, No, we can talk about that when we

0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.840
<v Speaker 1>talk about Graves County.

0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>But so there was a moment in episode four for

0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.280
<v Speaker 1>me where it clicked and I you know, in my head,

0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.040
<v Speaker 1>I went, wow, this this exact moment. It was when

0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 1>you were realizing how that there were other people Jeremy

0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 1>had murdered. And for me, it was so clear in

0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 1>that moment that this is why we have to get

0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:05.400
<v Speaker 1>it right right away and convict the right person. Were

0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.160
<v Speaker 1>you intending to show that, because that's what I got

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.919
<v Speaker 1>was if Jeremy, if Leo was not convicted, if this

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 1>case stayed open and they pursued the right person, would

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:19.200
<v Speaker 1>these other people have died?

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I don't think so. And I honestly like they

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 2>had Jeremy Scott's fingerprints in Michelle's car, you know, right

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 2>after the murder, and there was a detective with the

0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Polk County Sheriff's Office who invested Jeremy investigated Jeremy for

0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.240
<v Speaker 2>a prior murder about a year and a half earlier,

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>and he got to quit it on it. So he

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>knew that Jeremy was back on the streets in this

0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.840
<v Speaker 2>part of Lakeland where Michelle disappeared. Right there. Why don't

0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.800
<v Speaker 2>you take those unidentified fingerprints and just manually compare them

0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.320
<v Speaker 2>to known violent suspects in the area. That would have

0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.399
<v Speaker 2>led you right to Jeremy, and that would have been

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the end of it right there. But unfortunately that didn't happen.

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.359
<v Speaker 2>So he goes on to kill Michelle, doesn't get caught.

0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Six weeks later, he kills a cab driver, doesn't get caught,

0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and a year after that he kills another man in Lakeland.

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.439
<v Speaker 2>And then through this investigation, I'm meeting the family members

0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.159
<v Speaker 2>of these you know, the victims, and it's just heartbreaking

0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.160
<v Speaker 2>to see the trauma that they carry and just.

0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:19.879
<v Speaker 1>And none of it needed to happen, if they just

0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.840
<v Speaker 1>if they just arrested the right person.

0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Right and to be honest with the like in the

0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.399
<v Speaker 2>in these cases, like they had forensic evidence that would

0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.560
<v Speaker 2>link Jeremy, and so just it's amazing to me that

0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>they couldn't put it together and take him off the streets,

0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.320
<v Speaker 2>and when you just see the ripple effect of like

0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:43.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, even in Leo's case, like Leo's family, Michelle's family,

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 2>just like dozens of victims out there that you know,

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.760
<v Speaker 2>if he'd have been caught and taken off the streets,

0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.359
<v Speaker 2>none of this would have happened. And so like, you know,

0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.520
<v Speaker 2>you don't hear the police ever talking about that, or

0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.240
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutors ever talking about that. You know, by not

0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:58.640
<v Speaker 2>doing their jobs right.

0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.480
<v Speaker 1>They have blood on their hands literally, really really.

0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.160
<v Speaker 2>And you know some of it. I get it. There's

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.359
<v Speaker 2>unsolved murders out there. There are tricky, but to me,

0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.800
<v Speaker 2>these weren't tricky. I mean, he left fingerprints at every

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.600
<v Speaker 2>murder he committed. And so like, well, what's the problem.

0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.840
<v Speaker 1>Here, listeners want to know? Is Judge Cups still involved?

0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, Judge cup is still involved. He's very much

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, Leo's attorney. And yes, he's doing a lot.

0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.520
<v Speaker 2>We've we've done some speaking events where we go out

0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 2>together and speak, and he's really itching to get more involved.

0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.800
<v Speaker 2>And like, Judge, you stepped off the bench to help Leo,

0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Like there's not much more you could really do? You really,

0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.719
<v Speaker 2>you led me to this case to begin with, and

0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.240
<v Speaker 2>then you quit your job. You had years left on

0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.919
<v Speaker 2>the bench to be Leo's lawyer. You've done everything you

0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.119
<v Speaker 2>need to do. But he just feels like he cannot

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.480
<v Speaker 2>rest until Leo is exonerated. And you know, I kind

0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.160
<v Speaker 2>of respect that at him. He's he's got a real

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:49.120
<v Speaker 2>bulldog in him.

0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:54.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, I love that. That's great. So how can

0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.840
<v Speaker 1>we support Leo? And is there anything else you want

0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.040
<v Speaker 1>us to know about Leo or anything going on in

0:19:59.080 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 1>the Bone Valley World?

0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? The only thing you know, Leo does have a

0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.960
<v Speaker 2>GoFundMe page out there. Because of his injuries, he can't

0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.760
<v Speaker 2>work and so he was working as a mechanic in

0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.720
<v Speaker 2>an auto shop and like those days are gone. So

0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.760
<v Speaker 2>he may have an assistant pastor position that's coming his way,

0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 2>which I think he'd be ideal for. He's a great speaker.

0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:22.359
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I just think stay tuned to the

0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.120
<v Speaker 2>Bone Valley World, will will? You know? The time may

0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.080
<v Speaker 2>come when we need petitions and we need support, and

0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.160
<v Speaker 2>we're just waiting for that day to come.

0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.439
<v Speaker 1>Have Justin and Jamie listened to the podcast. What do

0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:34.199
<v Speaker 1>they think about it?

0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? You know, and I was really sensitive about this,

0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.000
<v Speaker 2>because you know, it was one of the things that

0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.800
<v Speaker 2>made this story so hard is that once Jamie agreed

0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.000
<v Speaker 2>to talk to you, to us, what we're going to

0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.640
<v Speaker 2>really ask her, and it's about her relationship with Jeremy,

0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.679
<v Speaker 2>probably the worst two years of her life. Really. You know,

0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.399
<v Speaker 2>she's how old was she then? She was seventeen and

0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 2>eighteen and she gets hooked up with Jeremy, who's the

0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.560
<v Speaker 2>same age, and you know, Jeremy's in and out of

0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.920
<v Speaker 2>jail and you know, just constantly being violent on the streets,

0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.359
<v Speaker 2>and and she's kind of this kid who's like, you know,

0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.879
<v Speaker 2>a good student, she's you know, she's got a house,

0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.639
<v Speaker 2>she's not homeless like Jeremy. Yet she's kind of interested

0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.520
<v Speaker 2>in this world of a new boyfriend. And it's Jeremy though,

0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.000
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so there's a lot of you know,

0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.920
<v Speaker 2>abuse that she suffered and a lot of like trauma,

0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.120
<v Speaker 2>and so that was really the hard thing to talk

0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to her about and just make her bring that all

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:26.440
<v Speaker 2>out again. And so, you know, I was really concerned

0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.320
<v Speaker 2>about how she might take it because you know, some

0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 2>of it is just so upsetting. She doesn't talked to

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.960
<v Speaker 2>anybody about it, but I did talk to her after

0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.120
<v Speaker 2>it came and she was she like begrudgingly conceded that

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.600
<v Speaker 2>she did feel some empathy for Jeremy after all this,

0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:43.840
<v Speaker 2>and she was she said, I'm really proud of this

0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 2>way you handled the story. And she goes, I just think,

0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.480
<v Speaker 2>like you did a really good job with this, and

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.639
<v Speaker 2>you were very fair, and you didn't you didn't sugarcoat anything,

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.199
<v Speaker 2>and you didn't shy away from anything. So she was,

0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:58.880
<v Speaker 2>she was very fine with it, and she just really

0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:00.959
<v Speaker 2>wants to meet Leo one day. And that's like what

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 2>everybody tells me. Justin, on the other hand, has listened

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:09.639
<v Speaker 2>to five episodes and I think he emotionally is so

0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:11.520
<v Speaker 2>moved by it that he told me because I just

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not ready to listen to the last episode. I

0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:15.960
<v Speaker 2>told him, you're gonna have to like find a quiet

0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.400
<v Speaker 2>place and get away from people and listen to listen

0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:20.720
<v Speaker 2>to it privately because it might be a lot for you,

0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 2>because it was a lot for us just working on it.

0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.439
<v Speaker 2>And I haven't heard back from on episode six, so

0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>that was a couple of weeks ago, so you know,

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I think I think he's gonna be fine. He really,

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:35.199
<v Speaker 2>he was just so impressed with like Mary and some

0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:37.359
<v Speaker 2>of the other people in the story who were looking

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.639
<v Speaker 2>out for his father, including Oscar who was the you know,

0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:42.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the inmates who was looking out of him.

0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Have him and Mary spoken, Yes.

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.640
<v Speaker 2>They continue to speak. They have a really sweet relationship.

0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.439
<v Speaker 2>I mean the letters and you've heard them, but like

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.000
<v Speaker 2>they she's just like this motherly figure to Jeremy and

0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.560
<v Speaker 2>he really does allow her to play that role in

0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.600
<v Speaker 2>his life. And he also is concerned about her and

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.120
<v Speaker 2>asks about her. And it's like that was another side

0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.479
<v Speaker 2>of Jeremy that I'd never seen before. Somebody was like,

0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:11.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, talking to Mary and telling make sure she

0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.000
<v Speaker 2>takes her medicines, make sure you don't work too hard,

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.000
<v Speaker 2>get some rest, you know, falling into these this kind

0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:21.240
<v Speaker 2>of role like a concerned son. But yeah, and Mary

0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.320
<v Speaker 2>and I have talked about it, like, you know, I said, look,

0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:25.880
<v Speaker 2>you've been doing a lot for this and I don't

0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.000
<v Speaker 2>want to. People are writing to me and they want

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.199
<v Speaker 2>to talk to Jeremy and they want to give him

0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:32.399
<v Speaker 2>money for his canteen and do you want me to

0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:34.880
<v Speaker 2>just keep forwarding these to you? And She's like, I'm

0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.040
<v Speaker 2>in this for life, Like I'm in it. I was like,

0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 2>that told me everything I needed to know about Mary

0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:42.000
<v Speaker 2>likes she's not going to abandon him, like she's going

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:43.639
<v Speaker 2>to be there for as long as he needs her.

0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:44.359
<v Speaker 1>Amazing.

0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:46.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think that was like the beauty of

0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:50.119
<v Speaker 2>the second season was just you know, you're really dealing

0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.320
<v Speaker 2>with a really dark story, but on the other hand,

0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:56.360
<v Speaker 2>you're seeing the best of people caring about each other.

0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And you know, it was really Justin's words. He said

0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:02.119
<v Speaker 2>people coming together, careing about people, and I really couldn't

0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:03.960
<v Speaker 2>have put it, you know better, And I didn't even

0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.320
<v Speaker 2>see that ever coming in this story, but it was

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 2>from Justin and that so that meant a lot to

0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:09.600
<v Speaker 2>me to just hear it from him.

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.959
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. So has you know, you mentioned the people are

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 1>writing a lot of letters they want to talk to Jeremy.

0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.399
<v Speaker 1>Has anyone else kind of really stepped in like Mary has.

0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.240
<v Speaker 2>They haven't really stepped in to do things, but they

0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:23.680
<v Speaker 2>want to help him. And I was kind of surprised

0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.240
<v Speaker 2>because it's been mostly women, but there's been some men

0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.720
<v Speaker 2>in there that have been moved enough to say, look,

0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:30.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't I just feel bad for this guy. I

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:32.320
<v Speaker 2>don't want to see him get out of prison. I

0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>don't want to be his pen pal like Mary, but

0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:37.000
<v Speaker 2>I just feel bad. This guy's you know, undergone so

0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 2>much in his life, and so I just want to

0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.120
<v Speaker 2>give him something to make his life easier. So yeah,

0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>and there's been quite a few, you know. Honestly, I

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.560
<v Speaker 2>would say more people have reached out to me about

0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:52.119
<v Speaker 2>Jeremy than Leo, believe it or not. You know, I

0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:54.439
<v Speaker 2>think it's probably because because Leo has a support system

0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:57.959
<v Speaker 2>already and Jeremy doesn't really have much of that, so

0:24:58.000 --> 0:24:59.840
<v Speaker 2>they don't really need to feel the need to step

0:24:59.880 --> 0:25:03.600
<v Speaker 2>in and help Leo, but they support him. But yeah,

0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm really surprised by it, and I've had like prosecutors

0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:10.320
<v Speaker 2>and cops even comment on it, saying, you know, I

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.119
<v Speaker 2>didn't think I could feel bad for this guy, but

0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I really do.

0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:15.439
<v Speaker 1>I think it's really groundbreaking. I mean I think, you know,

0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:17.679
<v Speaker 1>there's been other shows and stuff, like one of my

0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 1>favorite shows is I Am a Killer. It's on Netflix,

0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:22.720
<v Speaker 1>and I've even written some of those people on that show.

0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:26.680
<v Speaker 1>I just felt so compelled by how tragic their lives were.

0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:29.439
<v Speaker 1>And yes they're a murderer, but yeah, I did the

0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:31.840
<v Speaker 1>same thing. I wrote a guy and said, I just

0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:34.199
<v Speaker 1>saw your story. I just wanted to let you know

0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.480
<v Speaker 1>that I give a shit about you.

0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:37.400
<v Speaker 2>You're a human being.

0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:39.879
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes it's all it takes is to just let someone

0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:41.960
<v Speaker 1>know that someone cares about you.

0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:45.040
<v Speaker 2>And I think it's just those notes. I mean, even

0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:46.960
<v Speaker 2>if they're not going to contribute any money. And I

0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 2>understand that's just to say.

0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:52.320
<v Speaker 1>I hear you, because it's you were meant in prison

0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:55.560
<v Speaker 1>to be locked away and forgotten about, right right. So

0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.840
<v Speaker 1>to tell them I heard you, I heard your story

0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:01.359
<v Speaker 1>means so much.

0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:04.080
<v Speaker 2>I know it's been a lot to Jeremy too. You know,

0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:05.679
<v Speaker 2>at one point he wrote me a letter and he goes,

0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:07.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm just going to tell you everything because

0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.679
<v Speaker 2>people seem to listen to you, and he felt like

0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.280
<v Speaker 2>he just nobody listened to him. You know, they abuse

0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:13.960
<v Speaker 2>him in court, they call him a liar, and you

0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.440
<v Speaker 2>know everything, and you know he is for the last

0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:19.119
<v Speaker 2>four years sinside him. He's been trying to do the

0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:22.200
<v Speaker 2>right thing. He feels horrible that Leo's in prison for

0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:26.400
<v Speaker 2>a crime that he committed, and he recognizes that the family,

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Michelle's family is like suffering because of his actions, and

0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:32.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, and also he's let his family down, and

0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 2>he's just recognizing that if I just tell the truth,

0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:39.440
<v Speaker 2>it's bringing my family back into my life, and it's

0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:42.280
<v Speaker 2>actually helping a guy who shouldn't be in prison. And

0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:44.800
<v Speaker 2>so I think people hear that and recognize that there's

0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:46.840
<v Speaker 2>not much else he can do. But that's one big

0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:50.320
<v Speaker 2>step towards doing the right thing that should be commended.

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:53.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think he feels that, and so I feel

0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:56.800
<v Speaker 2>really good that he feels some kind of you know,

0:26:56.880 --> 0:27:00.560
<v Speaker 2>relief and satisfaction that he's done the right thing. One time,

0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 2>he asked me to send because he can't listen to

0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, but people were saying things to him about it,

0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:08.840
<v Speaker 2>so he was hearing about his secondhand, and he knew.

0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:11.040
<v Speaker 2>I interviewed him and he asked if I could send

0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:14.080
<v Speaker 2>pages from what he'd said to me, and I sent

0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:16.400
<v Speaker 2>them and he said, I don't ever want to see

0:27:16.440 --> 0:27:19.040
<v Speaker 2>those pages again. They're so painful to read, but I

0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>just wanted to have something that showed I did the

0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.480
<v Speaker 2>right thing once in my life. And I'm like, boy,

0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:26.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, how can you really just argue with something

0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:29.760
<v Speaker 2>like that? So it's from his heart, you know, So.

0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:33.439
<v Speaker 1>Do you think there's other things he has not admitted to.

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's one case that I you know, and I'm

0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:38.880
<v Speaker 2>really slow with this stuff. I've known him for four

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.520
<v Speaker 2>years and I'm really waiting for the right time, kind

0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:44.120
<v Speaker 2>of want to do it in person. But he has

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.200
<v Speaker 2>the very first murder that it got charged with, he

0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:50.199
<v Speaker 2>pled not guilty, and they put on a defense that

0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:52.760
<v Speaker 2>it was somebody else who did it, which is not true.

0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.880
<v Speaker 2>But he hasn't fully fully to me confessed to that

0:27:57.920 --> 0:28:01.320
<v Speaker 2>those details of that. He's confess to other people saying

0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:03.320
<v Speaker 2>that he got away with that one, but to me,

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:06.280
<v Speaker 2>he hasn't really explored it yet. And I kind of

0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:08.720
<v Speaker 2>stopped at that point because I do want to see

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 2>him in person, and so I have that conversation in person.

0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't want to It's a tricky thing

0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:16.920
<v Speaker 2>when you're doing this kind of thing, like let's go

0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:20.000
<v Speaker 2>back to another really awful thing you did. I try

0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:23.320
<v Speaker 2>to temper that with, you know, conversations with about his

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:27.359
<v Speaker 2>family and the positive things, and mostly with the later

0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.200
<v Speaker 2>murders that I was investigating. But I do want to

0:28:30.240 --> 0:28:32.840
<v Speaker 2>go back and revisit that because I think it's really

0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:36.000
<v Speaker 2>important that he talks to me about it in a

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.480
<v Speaker 2>truthful way, but just sort of take accountability for it.

0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:43.000
<v Speaker 2>But he's got a lot of bitterness about the person

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:47.280
<v Speaker 2>who who he accused of doing this. This person showed

0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:50.120
<v Speaker 2>up at his sentencing and was gloating and was making

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 2>faces at him in the courtroom, and so he's angry

0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:55.120
<v Speaker 2>at that guy, so that we have to get past

0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:58.000
<v Speaker 2>that anger phase to get to the truth. I think.

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:14.240
<v Speaker 1>Your relationship with Justin it feels like you're this kind

0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:17.560
<v Speaker 1>of father figure in his life and he's learned so

0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:20.880
<v Speaker 1>much about himself. Do you do you think of it

0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:21.280
<v Speaker 1>that way?

0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:23.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I didn't think about that until you just

0:29:23.720 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 2>mentioned that, because I don't know about you, but like

0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:28.680
<v Speaker 2>I just see, everybody's the same age, and so I

0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:30.520
<v Speaker 2>don't realize I'm a lot older than him. I am

0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:32.440
<v Speaker 2>a father figure in a lot of ways, so that

0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:36.400
<v Speaker 2>totally makes sense. But yes, you know, he would sometimes

0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:39.440
<v Speaker 2>look at me and just like can you help me,

0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 2>like those kind of eyes, like I can't do this alone.

0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:44.440
<v Speaker 2>I need help. And you know, just even writing to

0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:47.920
<v Speaker 2>his father was difficult, but I got to say, you know,

0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:50.160
<v Speaker 2>I did help him with things, and I try to,

0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:53.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, just respect how difficult this might be. It's

0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:56.400
<v Speaker 2>now I mentioned this like, it's not like like a

0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty three and Me kind of reunion. This is a

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:01.080
<v Speaker 2>guy that you know is a murderer and his son

0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:03.760
<v Speaker 2>doesn't know what's true. He's heard all these stories about

0:30:03.800 --> 0:30:07.920
<v Speaker 2>his father killing possibly eleven people, and he wasn't really

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:10.240
<v Speaker 2>aware of, you know, who his father was. He'd only

0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 2>heard rumors. Nobody talked about it. And so part of

0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:18.000
<v Speaker 2>the whole premise of season two was that Jamie was

0:30:18.240 --> 0:30:20.960
<v Speaker 2>found it easier to talk to me and Kelsey about

0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:24.040
<v Speaker 2>this than she did talking to Justin about it, and

0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 2>so she said, I'll tell you everything and then he

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 2>could learn it through you. And so there was this

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.400
<v Speaker 2>really weird conduit thing that we used.

0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Did you feel on your position in that, Like, I

0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:38.320
<v Speaker 1>guess that goes back to my question about your role

0:30:38.560 --> 0:30:40.680
<v Speaker 1>as a storyteller journalist.

0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:44.880
<v Speaker 2>It felt really awkward because I felt like, you know,

0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:46.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of things that can go wrong here,

0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:49.040
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to bring him into a situation

0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:52.840
<v Speaker 2>where it just Jeremy's the chaos of Jeremy's life kind

0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:56.280
<v Speaker 2>of takes over and he's hurt by this. And so

0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 2>we've talked a lot about that like trying to prepare him.

0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:00.880
<v Speaker 2>And I think he had a very realistic view of

0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:03.640
<v Speaker 2>who his father was, and that was just really me

0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 2>just trying to help him understand that if you want

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 2>to reach out to your father, that's fine, but you

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:09.440
<v Speaker 2>need to know who he is. And I got to

0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:12.040
<v Speaker 2>tell you all this stuff first and then you can

0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 2>decide if you still want to go forward with this. Yeah,

0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:16.960
<v Speaker 2>it's an awkward thing. I don't really I've never been

0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:19.000
<v Speaker 2>in these kind of situations before, so I was really

0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:21.840
<v Speaker 2>just using intuition a lot. How would I want to

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:24.880
<v Speaker 2>be treated in this situation, what do I think could

0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:27.600
<v Speaker 2>be useful, what's kind of off bounds that I shouldn't

0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:30.800
<v Speaker 2>be getting into, and just making sure everyone felt comfortable

0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:34.400
<v Speaker 2>proceeding in this way, And ultimately we did. We just

0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:36.480
<v Speaker 2>found a way to make it work and in a

0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:39.160
<v Speaker 2>way that I was very comfortable with, you know, ethically,

0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:42.960
<v Speaker 2>getting a little more involved than most journalists would get

0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>involved in it, but I just felt like this was

0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:47.480
<v Speaker 2>necessary to the story. It felt more like a documentary

0:31:47.480 --> 0:31:50.440
<v Speaker 2>where you're embedded with the people. You know, We're not

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.480
<v Speaker 2>taking sides about like guilt or innocence on this point.

0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:56.520
<v Speaker 2>It's just like, here's a human being who's suffering. He

0:31:56.680 --> 0:31:58.600
<v Speaker 2>is trying to help me with some of the cold

0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:01.840
<v Speaker 2>cases that were unsolved that he he's claimed responsibility for.

0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:04.600
<v Speaker 2>But there was really no issue with that. He was

0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:08.040
<v Speaker 2>very happy to talk about that stuff with me about it,

0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and so I didn't feel like I didn't ever feel

0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:13.440
<v Speaker 2>like I was like abusing my position, like Okay, I'm

0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:15.920
<v Speaker 2>sending you those books, so start giving me murders. You know,

0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:17.760
<v Speaker 2>it's never really got that. It was always I felt

0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:19.720
<v Speaker 2>like we were always very honest, and there were times

0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:21.480
<v Speaker 2>you just say, I don't want to talk about this anymore,

0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and we'd stop. This is respecting those kind of things

0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:29.120
<v Speaker 2>because it's more important about people's feelings and their mental

0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.160
<v Speaker 2>health than I think the story.

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:35.520
<v Speaker 1>What would you say to people who you know, say

0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:40.360
<v Speaker 1>you're giving a murderer platform. What about victims? We don't

0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:41.920
<v Speaker 1>give a shit about this guy. Why are we hearing

0:32:41.920 --> 0:32:43.280
<v Speaker 1>the whole story about a murderer?

0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean those are questions I asked myself, you know,

0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>like why are we doing this? What are we going?

0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:51.880
<v Speaker 2>What are we doing? And it wasn't until a long

0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:54.480
<v Speaker 2>time we were into this that we were still thinking

0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if we have this, it doesn't seem

0:32:56.920 --> 0:32:59.000
<v Speaker 2>to be going in an interesting place. And then a

0:32:59.040 --> 0:33:03.160
<v Speaker 2>few things started to mostly around Justin and Justin's mood

0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:08.200
<v Speaker 2>and willingness to go further. But you know, I feel

0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:12.240
<v Speaker 2>like I'm not really just trying to create sympathy for Jeremy,

0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:14.640
<v Speaker 2>because that's not really what I'm trying to do. You know,

0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>I am trying to get him charged for murders. Actually,

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:18.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, and he knows that. He told me I

0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:22.120
<v Speaker 2>can be charged for this, but that's okay, let's keep talking.

0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:25.040
<v Speaker 2>So he knows I'm talking to law enforcement and that

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:27.720
<v Speaker 2>my ultimate thing is to see him charged for the

0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:30.840
<v Speaker 2>murders he committed. You know, With that said, I don't

0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:34.600
<v Speaker 2>want to see him like suffer hardship because of you know,

0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:38.320
<v Speaker 2>my investigation. You know what. Granted, he's never getting out

0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:40.600
<v Speaker 2>of prison, so I don't think they're going to try him,

0:33:40.640 --> 0:33:42.800
<v Speaker 2>to be honest with you, I think he would sign something,

0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:45.440
<v Speaker 2>and but you know, he can get transferred back to

0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.320
<v Speaker 2>a county for three months, come off his meds, be

0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:51.040
<v Speaker 2>placed in a psych cell. And you know, last time

0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 2>that happened with one of Leo's cases, like the sheriff's

0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:56.520
<v Speaker 2>deputies like beat the hell out of him, and like,

0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:59.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to have that on my conscience, Like, oh,

0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:02.440
<v Speaker 2>all my work investigating and now Jeremy gets put in

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:05.400
<v Speaker 2>a really bad situation that he needs to harm. So

0:34:05.640 --> 0:34:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I have conflicted feelings about it, but you know, the

0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:11.799
<v Speaker 2>right thing to do is he needs to be held

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:14.880
<v Speaker 2>accountable for the murders that he's committed, that he's admitted

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 2>to committed to committing, and the people who have been

0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:20.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, tossed under the bus, like dan Odie and

0:34:20.440 --> 0:34:25.239
<v Speaker 2>Leo need to be fully exonerated. And so you know,

0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:27.359
<v Speaker 2>that's sort of the position I'm in, but I don't

0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:29.720
<v Speaker 2>I never felt like I was giving him a platform

0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:33.440
<v Speaker 2>to speak about because he didn't really have any issues.

0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:37.200
<v Speaker 2>He was just really just talking to me. And I

0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:38.960
<v Speaker 2>don't think he's really trying to get anything out of

0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:41.279
<v Speaker 2>anybody except he wants to meet his family. He wants

0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:42.360
<v Speaker 2>family in his life.

0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, for me, I feel like the importance of this

0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:50.440
<v Speaker 1>season again just shows that. I think it kind of

0:34:50.480 --> 0:34:54.759
<v Speaker 1>shows why it's important to understand Jeremy because then we

0:34:54.840 --> 0:34:58.520
<v Speaker 1>know how we got here, right, We know in some

0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 1>cases how this quote monster is made and by understanding

0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:06.240
<v Speaker 1>that we can prevent that perhaps.

0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think that's really important, you know, Like

0:35:08.200 --> 0:35:10.400
<v Speaker 2>there was something that the judge said of Jeremy when

0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:13.400
<v Speaker 2>he first got arrested for murder at age fifteen. He

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.160
<v Speaker 2>dealt with Jeremy like a lot in the juvenile system,

0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:18.840
<v Speaker 2>and he just said, I don't think anybody's surprised to

0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:21.160
<v Speaker 2>see Jeremy Scott here in this court charge with murder,

0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.279
<v Speaker 2>Like there was nothing anybody could do about that, Like

0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:27.400
<v Speaker 2>he'd been put in juvenile detention facilities.

0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:29.560
<v Speaker 1>Anyone have intervened, Like like, was there a point in

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:31.960
<v Speaker 1>his life someone could have intervened and we wouldn't be here.

0:35:34.440 --> 0:35:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it would have been asking a lot, Like

0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:38.880
<v Speaker 2>he literally was homeless at nine. He was out on

0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:42.400
<v Speaker 2>the streets committing crimes at age nine. His first arrest

0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 2>was at ten, I think, you know. And also he

0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:48.120
<v Speaker 2>had he had like a traumatic head injury which also

0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:51.239
<v Speaker 2>affected him. So he's got like a low IQ like

0:35:51.280 --> 0:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>in the seventies, he's got brain damage. You know, he

0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:59.800
<v Speaker 2>was abusing drugs and alcohol like before he was a teenager,

0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:04.840
<v Speaker 2>and his family really wasn't there for him. So I

0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:06.600
<v Speaker 2>don't know who else would have been there at the

0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:08.839
<v Speaker 2>point him, you know, he didn't really do very well

0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:11.719
<v Speaker 2>in school, was in and out of school. I think

0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>there could have been things like if somebody in a

0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:17.640
<v Speaker 2>juvenile detention center had come across him and maybe taken

0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:20.600
<v Speaker 2>some interest, or maybe a foster family. But it just

0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:24.000
<v Speaker 2>seemed like this inevitable path that he was leading towards

0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:26.359
<v Speaker 2>it as he was getting more and more violent, more

0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:30.120
<v Speaker 2>and more desperate on the streets. But yes, could something

0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:32.560
<v Speaker 2>have been done. Yes, the social programs, you know, those

0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:36.120
<v Speaker 2>are things I don't really feel qualified to talk about

0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:38.839
<v Speaker 2>those that part of the system, but I recognize it's

0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.840
<v Speaker 2>something that you got to give kids some kind of chance,

0:36:41.920 --> 0:36:45.000
<v Speaker 2>even people like Jeremy, because the damage that they can do.

0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Just go and ask the dozens and dozens of victims

0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:51.319
<v Speaker 2>of his violence. Do they think something could have been

0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:52.880
<v Speaker 2>done or should have been done? Though the first thing

0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:54.799
<v Speaker 2>they'll say is yes, that would have been great if

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:57.719
<v Speaker 2>we could have prevented this, Whether because Justin had grown

0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:00.279
<v Speaker 2>up constantly hearing you know, you're not your father, you're

0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:02.160
<v Speaker 2>not your father. You know, when he when he had

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:04.840
<v Speaker 2>a temper tantrum or something like that, he worried about

0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:07.680
<v Speaker 2>to am, I carrying the DNA of a map of

0:37:07.680 --> 0:37:10.080
<v Speaker 2>a person who's killed a bunch of people, and so

0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 2>he was afraid of that. And you know, at the end,

0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Jamie sort of acknowledged. She said, you know, Jeremy had

0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:19.719
<v Speaker 2>a charming side, he had a sweet side. He had compassion,

0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:21.759
<v Speaker 2>which you know, if you listen to the podcast, you

0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:24.000
<v Speaker 2>can feel it. He does have it, you can see it.

0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:27.879
<v Speaker 2>He's not the monster that you know. He's done evil things,

0:37:27.920 --> 0:37:30.279
<v Speaker 2>but he's not the monster you imagine when you think

0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:30.400
<v Speaker 2>of it.

0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Leo even said that too, he wanted a villain, he

0:37:32.719 --> 0:37:35.160
<v Speaker 1>wanted someone he could just like seethe and hate and

0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:36.360
<v Speaker 1>that's not him.

0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, And the first time he saw Jeremy, he's like,

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:41.040
<v Speaker 2>it's not that guy. You know, he felt sorry for him,

0:37:41.160 --> 0:37:42.759
<v Speaker 2>and I think a lot of people do feel sorry

0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:46.480
<v Speaker 2>for him. But Jamie, you know, finally acknowledged that. You know,

0:37:46.840 --> 0:37:49.240
<v Speaker 2>he is his father, but he's the good side of Jeremy.

0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:53.040
<v Speaker 2>And you know, having spent a lot of time on

0:37:53.080 --> 0:37:56.480
<v Speaker 2>the phone and talking to Jeremy, I did see that

0:37:56.560 --> 0:37:59.040
<v Speaker 2>good side. There was no doubt, Like, I'm sure there

0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:00.879
<v Speaker 2>are people who don't have a good side, but he's

0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:03.920
<v Speaker 2>not one of them. He's remorseful all the all the

0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:07.080
<v Speaker 2>remorse that the state expects Leo to show. Well, Leo's

0:38:07.080 --> 0:38:09.080
<v Speaker 2>got a claim of innocence, He's never shown the remorse.

0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Jeremy's showing that remorse all the time. He constantly talks

0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:16.440
<v Speaker 2>about the victims and the people he's hurt, and he

0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.359
<v Speaker 2>gets emotional about it. And and I think, you know,

0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Jamie's saying that made Justin sort of acknowledge it and

0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:27.359
<v Speaker 2>accept it. And you know, he said, I am my father.

0:38:27.440 --> 0:38:29.680
<v Speaker 2>I look exactly like my father, have the same eyes,

0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:32.600
<v Speaker 2>we have a very similar voice. I was listening to

0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:35.400
<v Speaker 2>the tape of Jeremy at this like as a teenager

0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:39.120
<v Speaker 2>confessing the police, and you know, he sounds exactly like Justin.

0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:42.680
<v Speaker 2>It was really weird. And to hear like Jamie talk

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:45.400
<v Speaker 2>about that saying, you know, as he grew up, seeing

0:38:45.440 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 2>him like wondering, I'm like, Gods, I get chills because

0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:50.440
<v Speaker 2>it looked like I was looking at Jeremy and you

0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:53.080
<v Speaker 2>can imagine somebody like that who's been like, you know,

0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:56.560
<v Speaker 2>thrown into a police car, you know, accused of murder

0:38:56.600 --> 0:38:59.200
<v Speaker 2>and and you know, beaten by Jeremy and all these

0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:02.799
<v Speaker 2>things like it would traumatic, but for her to acknowledge,

0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:06.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, that Justin carried the good side of Jeremy,

0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's, you know, hopefully, that's Jeremy's greatest

0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:12.279
<v Speaker 2>legacy is that his son went on to be this

0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:16.560
<v Speaker 2>beautiful person. And I really mean this sincerely. I call

0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:18.719
<v Speaker 2>him a kid. Everybody calls him a kid. He's thirty five,

0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:20.520
<v Speaker 2>but he feels like a kid a lot of times

0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:24.000
<v Speaker 2>when you're talking to him, and you know, he just

0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:28.680
<v Speaker 2>says some really profound things about forgiveness and acceptance that

0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's There's a lot of people in this

0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:33.440
<v Speaker 2>story that can make me cry, but he's one of

0:39:33.480 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 2>them automatically just to be he shows the same kind

0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:39.200
<v Speaker 2>of grace that I think Leo shows in a lot

0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:41.520
<v Speaker 2>of this story. And I'm just really honored to know

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:43.800
<v Speaker 2>him because when I first met him, I thought, who's

0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:46.520
<v Speaker 2>this crazy kid? I'm now it's Jeremy Scott's son who's

0:39:46.560 --> 0:39:48.760
<v Speaker 2>going to reach out to me, And he was nothing

0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:52.359
<v Speaker 2>like I expected. And I really think so highly of him,

0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and I love talking to him and catching up with him,

0:39:54.920 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 2>and he's a hugger and it's just like such a

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:57.919
<v Speaker 2>sweet thing to see him around.

0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:01.080
<v Speaker 1>He looks like Jeremy. I was I was not expecting

0:40:01.120 --> 0:40:02.120
<v Speaker 1>him to look like Jeremy.

0:40:02.200 --> 0:40:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he really looks a lot like him.

0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:06.080
<v Speaker 1>I have to see a picture, Gilbert King. You are

0:40:06.120 --> 0:40:07.640
<v Speaker 1>doing the lord's work, so thank you.

0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, thanks magg It's always pleasure to talking