Speaker 1: Gilbert King, Hello, it's great to see you. I just
Speaker 1: finished listening to season two, and I did not think
Speaker 1: it was possible to be better or equal to one.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say better, but it is absolutely fantastic, and
Speaker 1: I have to say it is the most perfect epilogue
Speaker 1: to season one. I don't think I would have wanted
Speaker 1: to hear something different.
Speaker 2: That's really nice. I don't know what to say to.
Speaker 1: That, but yeah, well, I know you guys struggled a
Speaker 1: little bit. Season two's are very difficult to make.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and you're trying to figure out what
Speaker 2: do people already know and what don't they know? And
Speaker 2: why is this even worth doing? Is it just seemed
Speaker 2: like we're tagging on a bunch of bonus episode, right,
Speaker 2: you know? But thanks for saying that, because you know
Speaker 2: it didn't come together easily, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I can feel the heart and care for
Speaker 1: these characters, and I do want to talk about that
Speaker 1: a bit. But the first thing that is on most
Speaker 1: people's minds is how is Leo? What is his condition?
Speaker 1: How is he?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, Leo, we've gotten a really bad
Speaker 2: motorcycle lax in January, and he was confined to a
Speaker 2: bed for three months, couldn't get out, couldn't bear weight,
Speaker 2: and it was pretty bad. He broke a lot of bones,
Speaker 2: his back, torn bladder and it was horrific injuries. And
Speaker 2: his daughter was riding on back and she had some
Speaker 2: pretty severe injuries too. And so I was just down
Speaker 2: there recently and he's finally out of bed and he
Speaker 2: can get into a wheelchair.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: He's still got some leg issues that he's trying to
Speaker 2: deal with, but overall, I would say he's markedly improved.
Speaker 2: His mood is much better because he can get out.
Speaker 2: He can actually drive a car now, he's got one
Speaker 2: good leg and so he's able to do that, and
Speaker 2: that makes a big difference psychologically, And so he's healing.
Speaker 2: He didn't think he would play guitar again. His wrists
Speaker 2: were just completely smashed. He's had six surgeries on his hands,
Speaker 2: but he was playing guitar. He still got a cast on,
Speaker 2: he's still got some more surgeries. Picture with the cast
Speaker 2: and him holding yeah, So he's like that makes a
Speaker 2: big difference psychologically. So I think he's really made really
Speaker 2: solid strides to getting back to Noise, even though I
Speaker 2: doubt he'll ever be fully one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: You didn't really feature his daughter in this season. Was
Speaker 1: there a reason for that?
Speaker 2: No, not really. You know, it's just like she just
Speaker 2: didn't really have a role in this you know, Chrissy
Speaker 2: was just barely in it too. We sort of just
Speaker 2: pivoted away from Leo a little bit more into the
Speaker 2: other side, Jeremy's side, and so it sort of limited
Speaker 2: the amount of people we could really concentrate on. I
Speaker 2: would it would be nice to give some more updates
Speaker 2: on the whole you know, Bone Valley universe, I guess
Speaker 2: you'd say, And we may do that at some point soon,
Speaker 2: but but this time we were just trying to be
Speaker 2: as tightly focused on Jeremy in this part of the story.
Speaker 1: So listeners also really want to know about Jeremy and
Speaker 1: Leo's relationship. Now, did they keep one? Have they spoken again?
Speaker 2: They have not spoken again yet. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: It's just a very difficult thing for Leo to do.
Speaker 2: And that's why I think it really worked well is
Speaker 2: that he was so spontaneous. Jeremy had called me and
Speaker 2: I just happened to be standing there with Leo, and
Speaker 2: I just spontaneously said, do you guys want to talk,
Speaker 2: and they did, but I'm not sure Leo, would you
Speaker 2: reach out to Jeremy and want to have further conversations
Speaker 2: with him. I think he'd be happy to meet with him,
Speaker 2: but it's just not something with Jeremy in prison. He's
Speaker 2: back in solitary confinement and Leos still struggling with health
Speaker 2: a little bit. We haven't even been thinking about that.
Speaker 2: But at some point, because Leo went through that CTP program,
Speaker 2: the Transition program, he is able to go into prisons again,
Speaker 2: and so he can actually visit Jeremy, and he said
Speaker 2: he wants to do that sometimes. Yeah, he does. And
Speaker 2: Jeremy specifically said, you know, I hope someday I can
Speaker 2: sit face to face with Leo and apologize for what
Speaker 2: I've done. And I think they would both get something
Speaker 2: out of that experience. I know both of them would,
Speaker 2: and so I think it will happen at some point,
Speaker 2: but right now, there's just too much going on between
Speaker 2: both of them.
Speaker 1: When we last heard from Jeremy, he was writing with
Speaker 1: Justin and he was wanting to do better. He was
Speaker 1: not in the hole at that time. He was out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: can you talk about what happened you know.
Speaker 2: What it is is he got transferred back to a
Speaker 2: facility where he'd been several years ago and where he
Speaker 2: had some incidents, including the stabbing incident. And so he
Speaker 2: went back there and there were some people there that
Speaker 2: had grudges and he he didn't feel safe there. I
Speaker 2: think at one point he'd gotten into a fight with
Speaker 2: an inmate. Wasn't really much of a fight. Jeremy told
Speaker 2: me the guy just beat him up, and so he
Speaker 2: sort of requested that he go back in the solitary.
Speaker 2: He felt safer there. And you know, Jeremy's not the
Speaker 2: most how to describe this, but he's not the most
Speaker 2: thoughtful person when it comes to how do I protect
Speaker 2: myself and get back in? And so he ended up
Speaker 2: having a conversation with an authority and they said, well,
Speaker 2: it's not that easy, and then he just said, well,
Speaker 2: I'll hurt somebody and get back in. And by saying that,
Speaker 2: he got back in. So he's back and see him too,
Speaker 2: and so I don't know, he's not really able to
Speaker 2: have visitors until he gets another I think, another move
Speaker 2: up in the stratosphere of CMS. But they are still
Speaker 2: writing to each other and they do want to meet
Speaker 2: Jeremy and his son Justin. They do want to meet its.
Speaker 2: Jeremy makes it a little difficult sometimes with his behavior
Speaker 2: in the prisons.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where is Justin's thought process at at this moment?
Speaker 2: You know, I think Justin's also got He just moved,
Speaker 2: he changed jobs, he's got a new family, a new child,
Speaker 2: and so he's been a little bit like this is
Speaker 2: my priority right now. But he told me, look, it's
Speaker 2: going to start clearing up right around now, and I
Speaker 2: want to start revisiting this again. So I think he
Speaker 2: will get back into it. And you know, he's been writing,
Speaker 2: but he hasn't really made an effort to get up
Speaker 2: there yet. And he needs me for that, and I
Speaker 2: want to be there for that too.
Speaker 1: I really love I haven't listened to any other podcasts where,
Speaker 1: without beating you over the head with it, we're exploring
Speaker 1: male emotions and these things that men don't often talk about.
Speaker 1: And hearing you know, Jeremy, this like big tough guy,
Speaker 1: prisoner murderer talk about these very intimate things. Can you
Speaker 1: just tell me a bit about your thought process when
Speaker 1: you guys decided to leave so much of that in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's just these are the kind of
Speaker 2: conversations I tended to have with him. He didn't really
Speaker 2: try to pull the tough guy routine at me. He
Speaker 2: sounded very broken early in the beginning when I started
Speaker 2: talking to him. He was just always in a really
Speaker 2: bad place, just bad things were happening to him. And
Speaker 2: I think the market difference I noticed is when I
Speaker 2: started sending them books, and he wanted to talk about
Speaker 2: the books he was reading, and you know, he read
Speaker 2: a lot of Westerns and some James Patterson, Stephen King
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. But I would send them, you know,
Speaker 2: books that my kids were reading back in the day,
Speaker 2: like Game of Thrones and and Hunger Games and things
Speaker 2: like that, just because I thought something more modern and
Speaker 2: I was familiar with these stories, and he talked about
Speaker 2: them in a way like, you know, he really lamented
Speaker 2: the way the author was killing off the characters and
Speaker 2: of Thrones, and how much he liked, you know, the
Speaker 2: adventure part of Hunger Games. And I just felt like
Speaker 2: he was talking to me differently than he was in
Speaker 2: the beginning, and he would get emotional about things and
Speaker 2: he would show this kind of empathy, and then he
Speaker 2: started speaking about his remorse and his great you know,
Speaker 2: regrets in life, you know, disappointing his family, and you know,
Speaker 2: that's the way I've always talked with Leo. We talked
Speaker 2: about those kind of things and he just fell right
Speaker 2: into it. And I didn't feel like I was forcing
Speaker 2: him to talk about more sensitive things. They were really
Speaker 2: coming from him, and I really enjoyed hearing that side
Speaker 2: of him. For some reason. It was just it just
Speaker 2: made me see a different side of him. There were
Speaker 2: stories he would tell about his childhood sometimes that it
Speaker 2: were just like made him laugh, and you know, you
Speaker 2: would just have these recollections that maybe hadn't thought about
Speaker 2: in a while, and just to hear somebody in those
Speaker 2: dire conditions laugh about something a memory really moved me emotionally.
Speaker 2: And so when he was willing to explore that, I
Speaker 2: just kept going there. And I don't regret it at all.
Speaker 2: You know, there's times where I get really emotionally. You
Speaker 2: can hear me and especially talking to Justin, We're likely
Speaker 2: you can hear me kind of sniffle in the background,
Speaker 2: but like that's just the way we roll.
Speaker 1: I know I'm about to cry and thinking about the
Speaker 1: at the end where he says he'll claim his body. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that talking about death in prison is something
Speaker 1: And this brings me to the next thing I want
Speaker 1: to talk to you about. When I was doing the
Speaker 1: Suave podcast, you know, that was one of the first
Speaker 1: things Swabi said when you get to prison is they
Speaker 1: ask you where do you want your body sent? And
Speaker 1: so then to hear Jeremy talking about something that I
Speaker 1: knew was something they ask and he's been thinking about that, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think it's really bad for him because he's
Speaker 2: lost touch with his family. Yeah, and so for like
Speaker 2: over a decade, he just hasn't had any corresponds. He
Speaker 2: didn't know where they were, like, he couldn't get anything
Speaker 2: from them. So I was giving him updates, and I
Speaker 2: think by talking about the people in his past, he
Speaker 2: was thinking about those connections again and the idea of
Speaker 2: being you know, very In that prison cemetery up there,
Speaker 2: it's a pretty dismal place. I mean literally, they have,
Speaker 2: you know, the prison's license plant tag and prints up
Speaker 2: your name, your date of death, and your prison number
Speaker 2: and that's it. And they're just out in the field
Speaker 2: and it's just not really well maintained, and you know,
Speaker 2: there's no flowers there, and I don't know what.
Speaker 1: He's seen or heard of potters Field.
Speaker 2: It is Potter's Field. And I just think the idea
Speaker 2: of just not being able to get out of that prison,
Speaker 2: even in death, just really depressed him. And he was
Speaker 2: talking about it a lot. And you know, so then
Speaker 2: they hear Justin say I'll claim him. I just that
Speaker 2: kind of blew me away. I wasn't even expecting that.
Speaker 1: So how do you navigate that line between your emotional
Speaker 1: involvement with these people and being able to tell the
Speaker 1: story objectively? I don't think you do you consider yourself
Speaker 1: a journalist?
Speaker 2: Not really. I mean I used journalism sure in it,
Speaker 2: but I never came up from that background. So, you know,
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about this just yesterday because like
Speaker 2: I don't know, like I Jeremy Books, and I don't
Speaker 2: know if like if I worked for like a journal,
Speaker 2: like a newspaper like the New York Times, I'd be
Speaker 2: allowed to do that.
Speaker 1: You would not be allowed to do it.
Speaker 2: That was a groundbreaking thing that enabled me to develop
Speaker 2: this sort of you know, compassion, but also just this
Speaker 2: bond with Jeremy over books, and it kind of fit perfectly.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a writer, like let's talk about books.
Speaker 2: And we talked about that, and I just feel like
Speaker 2: it opened up a great and I would hate to
Speaker 2: not have that tool in my toolbox to do this
Speaker 2: kind of things. And so like, I don't I don't know.
Speaker 2: I feel like as long as I'm sort of being
Speaker 2: honest with the subject, being honest with myself and trying
Speaker 2: to respect listeners, you know, you don't want to be like, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm also trying to get Jeremy out
Speaker 2: of prison. That's my goal here. You know, like nobody
Speaker 2: wants Jeremy out of prison. He can't get out of prison.
Speaker 2: He's too violent, he has no self control, he's not
Speaker 2: someone you want out there. But then I just thought, well,
Speaker 2: what's the best thing you can hope for from Jeremy?
Speaker 2: And even if I was a prosecutor, I think the
Speaker 2: same answer would be, you know that he just admits
Speaker 2: to what he did and maybe tries to ease the
Speaker 2: suffering of the victims and the families and victims that
Speaker 2: he's hurt. That's about the best you can hope for him.
Speaker 2: And that's what he was doing. And so to me,
Speaker 2: it was like a win win. I've gotten letters from
Speaker 2: people in the Florida Corrections high level people that you know,
Speaker 2: have told me that you have no idea how good
Speaker 2: this is for the entire system, to show that to
Speaker 2: establish connections with family, it's one of the most important
Speaker 2: things for prisoners. So we thank you. And I was like,
Speaker 2: I didn't expect to get.
Speaker 1: That from these No, that's really interesting. Actually, can you
Speaker 1: elaborate on that a little bit? So when you were
Speaker 1: helping Jeremy connect with family, yeah, they said to you,
Speaker 1: this is good for everyone.
Speaker 2: Well, they came out to me after they heard the podcast, okay,
Speaker 2: and one of the guys wrote me a letter, and
Speaker 2: in fact, he said, you know, I was the one
Speaker 2: that set up the field mission program in the Florida
Speaker 2: Department of Corrections, so I knew who Leo was, and
Speaker 2: I just want to say, like, I listened to your
Speaker 2: podcast and like that what you're doing by bringing families
Speaker 2: closer together, it improved behavior of people like Jeremy. And
Speaker 2: he was like thankful for it. And you know, I
Speaker 2: ended up talking to Leo about it and Leo says,
Speaker 2: I know that guy, like it's amazing, Like this guy,
Speaker 2: I can't believe he wrote you that letter.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So you know, so, I always felt like we were
Speaker 2: doing this conscientiously. We're not trying to expose the prisons
Speaker 2: as being, you know, these horrible, violent places. That's part
Speaker 2: of the story, but we're showing another side to it
Speaker 2: where you know, someone's trying to get some kind of
Speaker 2: redemption and turn his life around in a positive way,
Speaker 2: and that that can never be a bad thing.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I know a lot of cops and they get asked
Speaker 3: all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?
Speaker 3: Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated
Speaker 3: to a future where the answer will always be no.
Speaker 3: This is Absolute Season one Taser Incorporated.
Speaker 2: I get right back there and it's bad.
Speaker 4: Listen to all episodes of Absolute Season one Taser Incorporated
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 4: your podcasts.
Speaker 1: So people want to know, is the State of Florida
Speaker 1: ever going to admit it's wrongdoing in this Do you
Speaker 1: think they're moving?
Speaker 2: You know, I do believe that they will, as a
Speaker 2: general state will admit that they got this wrong. I
Speaker 2: don't think the circuit where this case took place, I
Speaker 2: don't think they'll ever admit they got it wrong. But
Speaker 2: I do think that. You know, there's some powerful people
Speaker 2: in Leo's corner that are pushing for this. And I've
Speaker 2: gone through this before in Florida. When I wrote DEVI
Speaker 2: on the grove, I felt the momentum build and I
Speaker 2: felt politician saying we got to fix this. This is
Speaker 2: just embarrassing. And I think Leo's case is similar. I mean,
Speaker 2: anyone who looks into it, you know pretty much that
Speaker 2: you got the wrong guy and that he should never
Speaker 2: have been convicted. But he did get convicted, and but
Speaker 2: that needs to be corrected. And I have high confidence
Speaker 2: that this is going to happen. I don't know when,
Speaker 2: I don't know if it'll be with the same governor,
Speaker 2: I don't know how it's going to look. But I
Speaker 2: have no doubt that this is going to happen. And
Speaker 2: just because I think Florida understands unlike a lot of
Speaker 2: other states, Florida understands that the integrity of the criminal
Speaker 2: justice system is also at play, and it improves the
Speaker 2: integrity by addressing these past injustices to just say, you
Speaker 2: know what, that was wrong, we got that wrong. We're
Speaker 2: not just going to sweep it under rug and not
Speaker 2: admit we blew it. Let's let's just be honest about this,
Speaker 2: And I've seen them do it in the past, and
Speaker 2: so I have confidence that it's going to happen again.
Speaker 1: This isn't necessary like on record or whatever. But that's
Speaker 1: interesting about Florida because I feel like we never often
Speaker 1: cover case innocence cases from there, and that makes me
Speaker 1: think that they're not really being proactive. Like I don't
Speaker 1: know too many innocence cases down there that are high
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not that easy. I shouldn't really separate
Speaker 2: so much, but I just I've seen it. I've seen
Speaker 2: it happen in the past, exonerations coming out of Florida
Speaker 2: and admitting they got it wrong. And it's just to me,
Speaker 2: it's just that's what I'm clinging to, Like I've seen
Speaker 2: this happen in the past. I've been involved with some
Speaker 2: of them in the past, you know. But there are
Speaker 2: some really tricky innocence cases down there. If you talk
Speaker 2: to Seth Miller, a to the Innocence Project, he could
Speaker 2: probably tell you how frustrating the state is. But I'm
Speaker 2: only mostly looking through the lens of the cases I
Speaker 2: get involved in that I do expect some kind of
Speaker 2: you know, movement on this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just thinking like when I think of states
Speaker 1: with like mass exonerations and thinking like Michigan. You see
Speaker 1: all the guys in Michigan in Chicago. I didn't think
Speaker 1: Florida was doing so much.
Speaker 2: No, they're doing individual cases. I think, you know, in
Speaker 2: the cases I look at in Florida for the most part,
Speaker 2: and this is a generalization, but I think it's more
Speaker 2: like one prosecutor's office. It's not like the police. I mean, granted,
Speaker 2: there are those kind of cases out there, but in
Speaker 2: the case I've looked at, it seems to be the
Speaker 2: prosecuted office so really fighting for that conviction and maybe
Speaker 2: willing to ben some ethical rules to get there. Whereas
Speaker 2: you know, even in the Leo's case, like, I don't
Speaker 2: think the police did a really bad job on it.
Speaker 2: I think they were you know, they didn't have the
Speaker 2: manpower they needed, and there was a lot of unsolved
Speaker 2: murders happening, a lot of administrative complications. But I think
Speaker 2: mostly they did a pretty good job and they couldn't
Speaker 2: solve the case. And that's when the prosecutor came in
Speaker 2: and said, I'll fix it. And that's when everything started changing.
Speaker 2: All the evidence suddenly got beautiful, and you know that
Speaker 2: the police after sixteen months couldn't put that together. But
Speaker 2: prosecutor comes in and all of a sudden, case changes. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know what happened there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, we can talk about that when we
Speaker 1: talk about Graves County.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: But so there was a moment in episode four for
Speaker 1: me where it clicked and I you know, in my head,
Speaker 1: I went, wow, this this exact moment. It was when
Speaker 1: you were realizing how that there were other people Jeremy
Speaker 1: had murdered. And for me, it was so clear in
Speaker 1: that moment that this is why we have to get
Speaker 1: it right right away and convict the right person. Were
Speaker 1: you intending to show that, because that's what I got
Speaker 1: was if Jeremy, if Leo was not convicted, if this
Speaker 1: case stayed open and they pursued the right person, would
Speaker 1: these other people have died?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't think so. And I honestly like they
Speaker 2: had Jeremy Scott's fingerprints in Michelle's car, you know, right
Speaker 2: after the murder, and there was a detective with the
Speaker 2: Polk County Sheriff's Office who invested Jeremy investigated Jeremy for
Speaker 2: a prior murder about a year and a half earlier,
Speaker 2: and he got to quit it on it. So he
Speaker 2: knew that Jeremy was back on the streets in this
Speaker 2: part of Lakeland where Michelle disappeared. Right there. Why don't
Speaker 2: you take those unidentified fingerprints and just manually compare them
Speaker 2: to known violent suspects in the area. That would have
Speaker 2: led you right to Jeremy, and that would have been
Speaker 2: the end of it right there. But unfortunately that didn't happen.
Speaker 2: So he goes on to kill Michelle, doesn't get caught.
Speaker 2: Six weeks later, he kills a cab driver, doesn't get caught,
Speaker 2: and a year after that he kills another man in Lakeland.
Speaker 2: And then through this investigation, I'm meeting the family members
Speaker 2: of these you know, the victims, and it's just heartbreaking
Speaker 2: to see the trauma that they carry and just.
Speaker 1: And none of it needed to happen, if they just
Speaker 1: if they just arrested the right person.
Speaker 2: Right and to be honest with the like in the
Speaker 2: in these cases, like they had forensic evidence that would
Speaker 2: link Jeremy, and so just it's amazing to me that
Speaker 2: they couldn't put it together and take him off the streets,
Speaker 2: and when you just see the ripple effect of like
Speaker 2: you know, even in Leo's case, like Leo's family, Michelle's family,
Speaker 2: just like dozens of victims out there that you know,
Speaker 2: if he'd have been caught and taken off the streets,
Speaker 2: none of this would have happened. And so like, you know,
Speaker 2: you don't hear the police ever talking about that, or
Speaker 2: the prosecutors ever talking about that. You know, by not
Speaker 2: doing their jobs right.
Speaker 1: They have blood on their hands literally, really really.
Speaker 2: And you know some of it. I get it. There's
Speaker 2: unsolved murders out there. There are tricky, but to me,
Speaker 2: these weren't tricky. I mean, he left fingerprints at every
Speaker 2: murder he committed. And so like, well, what's the problem.
Speaker 1: Here, listeners want to know? Is Judge Cups still involved?
Speaker 2: You know, Judge cup is still involved. He's very much
Speaker 2: you know, Leo's attorney. And yes, he's doing a lot.
Speaker 2: We've we've done some speaking events where we go out
Speaker 2: together and speak, and he's really itching to get more involved.
Speaker 2: And like, Judge, you stepped off the bench to help Leo,
Speaker 2: Like there's not much more you could really do? You really,
Speaker 2: you led me to this case to begin with, and
Speaker 2: then you quit your job. You had years left on
Speaker 2: the bench to be Leo's lawyer. You've done everything you
Speaker 2: need to do. But he just feels like he cannot
Speaker 2: rest until Leo is exonerated. And you know, I kind
Speaker 2: of respect that at him. He's he's got a real
Speaker 2: bulldog in him.
Speaker 1: You know, I love that. That's great. So how can
Speaker 1: we support Leo? And is there anything else you want
Speaker 1: us to know about Leo or anything going on in
Speaker 1: the Bone Valley World?
Speaker 2: Yeah? The only thing you know, Leo does have a
Speaker 2: GoFundMe page out there. Because of his injuries, he can't
Speaker 2: work and so he was working as a mechanic in
Speaker 2: an auto shop and like those days are gone. So
Speaker 2: he may have an assistant pastor position that's coming his way,
Speaker 2: which I think he'd be ideal for. He's a great speaker.
Speaker 2: But you know, I just think stay tuned to the
Speaker 2: Bone Valley World, will will? You know? The time may
Speaker 2: come when we need petitions and we need support, and
Speaker 2: we're just waiting for that day to come.
Speaker 1: Have Justin and Jamie listened to the podcast. What do
Speaker 1: they think about it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, and I was really sensitive about this,
Speaker 2: because you know, it was one of the things that
Speaker 2: made this story so hard is that once Jamie agreed
Speaker 2: to talk to you, to us, what we're going to
Speaker 2: really ask her, and it's about her relationship with Jeremy,
Speaker 2: probably the worst two years of her life. Really. You know,
Speaker 2: she's how old was she then? She was seventeen and
Speaker 2: eighteen and she gets hooked up with Jeremy, who's the
Speaker 2: same age, and you know, Jeremy's in and out of
Speaker 2: jail and you know, just constantly being violent on the streets,
Speaker 2: and and she's kind of this kid who's like, you know,
Speaker 2: a good student, she's you know, she's got a house,
Speaker 2: she's not homeless like Jeremy. Yet she's kind of interested
Speaker 2: in this world of a new boyfriend. And it's Jeremy though,
Speaker 2: you know. And so there's a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: abuse that she suffered and a lot of like trauma,
Speaker 2: and so that was really the hard thing to talk
Speaker 2: to her about and just make her bring that all
Speaker 2: out again. And so, you know, I was really concerned
Speaker 2: about how she might take it because you know, some
Speaker 2: of it is just so upsetting. She doesn't talked to
Speaker 2: anybody about it, but I did talk to her after
Speaker 2: it came and she was she like begrudgingly conceded that
Speaker 2: she did feel some empathy for Jeremy after all this,
Speaker 2: and she was she said, I'm really proud of this
Speaker 2: way you handled the story. And she goes, I just think,
Speaker 2: like you did a really good job with this, and
Speaker 2: you were very fair, and you didn't you didn't sugarcoat anything,
Speaker 2: and you didn't shy away from anything. So she was,
Speaker 2: she was very fine with it, and she just really
Speaker 2: wants to meet Leo one day. And that's like what
Speaker 2: everybody tells me. Justin, on the other hand, has listened
Speaker 2: to five episodes and I think he emotionally is so
Speaker 2: moved by it that he told me because I just
Speaker 2: I'm not ready to listen to the last episode. I
Speaker 2: told him, you're gonna have to like find a quiet
Speaker 2: place and get away from people and listen to listen
Speaker 2: to it privately because it might be a lot for you,
Speaker 2: because it was a lot for us just working on it.
Speaker 2: And I haven't heard back from on episode six, so
Speaker 2: that was a couple of weeks ago, so you know,
Speaker 2: I think I think he's gonna be fine. He really,
Speaker 2: he was just so impressed with like Mary and some
Speaker 2: of the other people in the story who were looking
Speaker 2: out for his father, including Oscar who was the you know,
Speaker 2: one of the inmates who was looking out of him.
Speaker 1: Have him and Mary spoken, Yes.
Speaker 2: They continue to speak. They have a really sweet relationship.
Speaker 2: I mean the letters and you've heard them, but like
Speaker 2: they she's just like this motherly figure to Jeremy and
Speaker 2: he really does allow her to play that role in
Speaker 2: his life. And he also is concerned about her and
Speaker 2: asks about her. And it's like that was another side
Speaker 2: of Jeremy that I'd never seen before. Somebody was like,
Speaker 2: you know, talking to Mary and telling make sure she
Speaker 2: takes her medicines, make sure you don't work too hard,
Speaker 2: get some rest, you know, falling into these this kind
Speaker 2: of role like a concerned son. But yeah, and Mary
Speaker 2: and I have talked about it, like, you know, I said, look,
Speaker 2: you've been doing a lot for this and I don't
Speaker 2: want to. People are writing to me and they want
Speaker 2: to talk to Jeremy and they want to give him
Speaker 2: money for his canteen and do you want me to
Speaker 2: just keep forwarding these to you? And She's like, I'm
Speaker 2: in this for life, Like I'm in it. I was like,
Speaker 2: that told me everything I needed to know about Mary
Speaker 2: likes she's not going to abandon him, like she's going
Speaker 2: to be there for as long as he needs her.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that was like the beauty of
Speaker 2: the second season was just you know, you're really dealing
Speaker 2: with a really dark story, but on the other hand,
Speaker 2: you're seeing the best of people caring about each other.
Speaker 2: And you know, it was really Justin's words. He said
Speaker 2: people coming together, careing about people, and I really couldn't
Speaker 2: have put it, you know better, And I didn't even
Speaker 2: see that ever coming in this story, but it was
Speaker 2: from Justin and that so that meant a lot to
Speaker 2: me to just hear it from him.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So has you know, you mentioned the people are
Speaker 1: writing a lot of letters they want to talk to Jeremy.
Speaker 1: Has anyone else kind of really stepped in like Mary has.
Speaker 2: They haven't really stepped in to do things, but they
Speaker 2: want to help him. And I was kind of surprised
Speaker 2: because it's been mostly women, but there's been some men
Speaker 2: in there that have been moved enough to say, look,
Speaker 2: I don't I just feel bad for this guy. I
Speaker 2: don't want to see him get out of prison. I
Speaker 2: don't want to be his pen pal like Mary, but
Speaker 2: I just feel bad. This guy's you know, undergone so
Speaker 2: much in his life, and so I just want to
Speaker 2: give him something to make his life easier. So yeah,
Speaker 2: and there's been quite a few, you know. Honestly, I
Speaker 2: would say more people have reached out to me about
Speaker 2: Jeremy than Leo, believe it or not. You know, I
Speaker 2: think it's probably because because Leo has a support system
Speaker 2: already and Jeremy doesn't really have much of that, so
Speaker 2: they don't really need to feel the need to step
Speaker 2: in and help Leo, but they support him. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm really surprised by it, and I've had like prosecutors
Speaker 2: and cops even comment on it, saying, you know, I
Speaker 2: didn't think I could feel bad for this guy, but
Speaker 2: I really do.
Speaker 1: I think it's really groundbreaking. I mean I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there's been other shows and stuff, like one of my
Speaker 1: favorite shows is I Am a Killer. It's on Netflix,
Speaker 1: and I've even written some of those people on that show.
Speaker 1: I just felt so compelled by how tragic their lives were.
Speaker 1: And yes they're a murderer, but yeah, I did the
Speaker 1: same thing. I wrote a guy and said, I just
Speaker 1: saw your story. I just wanted to let you know
Speaker 1: that I give a shit about you.
Speaker 2: You're a human being.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's all it takes is to just let someone
Speaker 1: know that someone cares about you.
Speaker 2: And I think it's just those notes. I mean, even
Speaker 2: if they're not going to contribute any money. And I
Speaker 2: understand that's just to say.
Speaker 1: I hear you, because it's you were meant in prison
Speaker 1: to be locked away and forgotten about, right right. So
Speaker 1: to tell them I heard you, I heard your story
Speaker 1: means so much.
Speaker 2: I know it's been a lot to Jeremy too. You know,
Speaker 2: at one point he wrote me a letter and he goes,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just going to tell you everything because
Speaker 2: people seem to listen to you, and he felt like
Speaker 2: he just nobody listened to him. You know, they abuse
Speaker 2: him in court, they call him a liar, and you
Speaker 2: know everything, and you know he is for the last
Speaker 2: four years sinside him. He's been trying to do the
Speaker 2: right thing. He feels horrible that Leo's in prison for
Speaker 2: a crime that he committed, and he recognizes that the family,
Speaker 2: Michelle's family is like suffering because of his actions, and
Speaker 2: you know, and also he's let his family down, and
Speaker 2: he's just recognizing that if I just tell the truth,
Speaker 2: it's bringing my family back into my life, and it's
Speaker 2: actually helping a guy who shouldn't be in prison. And
Speaker 2: so I think people hear that and recognize that there's
Speaker 2: not much else he can do. But that's one big
Speaker 2: step towards doing the right thing that should be commended.
Speaker 2: And I think he feels that, and so I feel
Speaker 2: really good that he feels some kind of you know,
Speaker 2: relief and satisfaction that he's done the right thing. One time,
Speaker 2: he asked me to send because he can't listen to
Speaker 2: the podcast, but people were saying things to him about it,
Speaker 2: so he was hearing about his secondhand, and he knew.
Speaker 2: I interviewed him and he asked if I could send
Speaker 2: pages from what he'd said to me, and I sent
Speaker 2: them and he said, I don't ever want to see
Speaker 2: those pages again. They're so painful to read, but I
Speaker 2: just wanted to have something that showed I did the
Speaker 2: right thing once in my life. And I'm like, boy,
Speaker 2: you know, how can you really just argue with something
Speaker 2: like that? So it's from his heart, you know, So.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's other things he has not admitted to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one case that I you know, and I'm
Speaker 2: really slow with this stuff. I've known him for four
Speaker 2: years and I'm really waiting for the right time, kind
Speaker 2: of want to do it in person. But he has
Speaker 2: the very first murder that it got charged with, he
Speaker 2: pled not guilty, and they put on a defense that
Speaker 2: it was somebody else who did it, which is not true.
Speaker 2: But he hasn't fully fully to me confessed to that
Speaker 2: those details of that. He's confess to other people saying
Speaker 2: that he got away with that one, but to me,
Speaker 2: he hasn't really explored it yet. And I kind of
Speaker 2: stopped at that point because I do want to see
Speaker 2: him in person, and so I have that conversation in person.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to It's a tricky thing
Speaker 2: when you're doing this kind of thing, like let's go
Speaker 2: back to another really awful thing you did. I try
Speaker 2: to temper that with, you know, conversations with about his
Speaker 2: family and the positive things, and mostly with the later
Speaker 2: murders that I was investigating. But I do want to
Speaker 2: go back and revisit that because I think it's really
Speaker 2: important that he talks to me about it in a
Speaker 2: truthful way, but just sort of take accountability for it.
Speaker 2: But he's got a lot of bitterness about the person
Speaker 2: who who he accused of doing this. This person showed
Speaker 2: up at his sentencing and was gloating and was making
Speaker 2: faces at him in the courtroom, and so he's angry
Speaker 2: at that guy, so that we have to get past
Speaker 2: that anger phase to get to the truth. I think.
Speaker 1: Your relationship with Justin it feels like you're this kind
Speaker 1: of father figure in his life and he's learned so
Speaker 1: much about himself. Do you do you think of it
Speaker 1: that way?
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think about that until you just
Speaker 2: mentioned that, because I don't know about you, but like
Speaker 2: I just see, everybody's the same age, and so I
Speaker 2: don't realize I'm a lot older than him. I am
Speaker 2: a father figure in a lot of ways, so that
Speaker 2: totally makes sense. But yes, you know, he would sometimes
Speaker 2: look at me and just like can you help me,
Speaker 2: like those kind of eyes, like I can't do this alone.
Speaker 2: I need help. And you know, just even writing to
Speaker 2: his father was difficult, but I got to say, you know,
Speaker 2: I did help him with things, and I try to,
Speaker 2: you know, just respect how difficult this might be. It's
Speaker 2: now I mentioned this like, it's not like like a
Speaker 2: twenty three and Me kind of reunion. This is a
Speaker 2: guy that you know is a murderer and his son
Speaker 2: doesn't know what's true. He's heard all these stories about
Speaker 2: his father killing possibly eleven people, and he wasn't really
Speaker 2: aware of, you know, who his father was. He'd only
Speaker 2: heard rumors. Nobody talked about it. And so part of
Speaker 2: the whole premise of season two was that Jamie was
Speaker 2: found it easier to talk to me and Kelsey about
Speaker 2: this than she did talking to Justin about it, and
Speaker 2: so she said, I'll tell you everything and then he
Speaker 2: could learn it through you. And so there was this
Speaker 2: really weird conduit thing that we used.
Speaker 1: Did you feel on your position in that, Like, I
Speaker 1: guess that goes back to my question about your role
Speaker 1: as a storyteller journalist.
Speaker 2: It felt really awkward because I felt like, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that can go wrong here,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to bring him into a situation
Speaker 2: where it just Jeremy's the chaos of Jeremy's life kind
Speaker 2: of takes over and he's hurt by this. And so
Speaker 2: we've talked a lot about that like trying to prepare him.
Speaker 2: And I think he had a very realistic view of
Speaker 2: who his father was, and that was just really me
Speaker 2: just trying to help him understand that if you want
Speaker 2: to reach out to your father, that's fine, but you
Speaker 2: need to know who he is. And I got to
Speaker 2: tell you all this stuff first and then you can
Speaker 2: decide if you still want to go forward with this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's an awkward thing. I don't really I've never been
Speaker 2: in these kind of situations before, so I was really
Speaker 2: just using intuition a lot. How would I want to
Speaker 2: be treated in this situation, what do I think could
Speaker 2: be useful, what's kind of off bounds that I shouldn't
Speaker 2: be getting into, and just making sure everyone felt comfortable
Speaker 2: proceeding in this way, And ultimately we did. We just
Speaker 2: found a way to make it work and in a
Speaker 2: way that I was very comfortable with, you know, ethically,
Speaker 2: getting a little more involved than most journalists would get
Speaker 2: involved in it, but I just felt like this was
Speaker 2: necessary to the story. It felt more like a documentary
Speaker 2: where you're embedded with the people. You know, We're not
Speaker 2: taking sides about like guilt or innocence on this point.
Speaker 2: It's just like, here's a human being who's suffering. He
Speaker 2: is trying to help me with some of the cold
Speaker 2: cases that were unsolved that he he's claimed responsibility for.
Speaker 2: But there was really no issue with that. He was
Speaker 2: very happy to talk about that stuff with me about it,
Speaker 2: and so I didn't feel like I didn't ever feel
Speaker 2: like I was like abusing my position, like Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: sending you those books, so start giving me murders. You know,
Speaker 2: it's never really got that. It was always I felt
Speaker 2: like we were always very honest, and there were times
Speaker 2: you just say, I don't want to talk about this anymore,
Speaker 2: and we'd stop. This is respecting those kind of things
Speaker 2: because it's more important about people's feelings and their mental
Speaker 2: health than I think the story.
Speaker 1: What would you say to people who you know, say
Speaker 1: you're giving a murderer platform. What about victims? We don't
Speaker 1: give a shit about this guy. Why are we hearing
Speaker 1: the whole story about a murderer?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those are questions I asked myself, you know,
Speaker 2: like why are we doing this? What are we going?
Speaker 2: What are we doing? And it wasn't until a long
Speaker 2: time we were into this that we were still thinking
Speaker 2: I don't know if we have this, it doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to be going in an interesting place. And then a
Speaker 2: few things started to mostly around Justin and Justin's mood
Speaker 2: and willingness to go further. But you know, I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm not really just trying to create sympathy for Jeremy,
Speaker 2: because that's not really what I'm trying to do. You know,
Speaker 2: I am trying to get him charged for murders. Actually,
Speaker 2: you know, and he knows that. He told me I
Speaker 2: can be charged for this, but that's okay, let's keep talking.
Speaker 2: So he knows I'm talking to law enforcement and that
Speaker 2: my ultimate thing is to see him charged for the
Speaker 2: murders he committed. You know, With that said, I don't
Speaker 2: want to see him like suffer hardship because of you know,
Speaker 2: my investigation. You know what. Granted, he's never getting out
Speaker 2: of prison, so I don't think they're going to try him,
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, I think he would sign something,
Speaker 2: and but you know, he can get transferred back to
Speaker 2: a county for three months, come off his meds, be
Speaker 2: placed in a psych cell. And you know, last time
Speaker 2: that happened with one of Leo's cases, like the sheriff's
Speaker 2: deputies like beat the hell out of him, and like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to have that on my conscience, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: all my work investigating and now Jeremy gets put in
Speaker 2: a really bad situation that he needs to harm. So
Speaker 2: I have conflicted feelings about it, but you know, the
Speaker 2: right thing to do is he needs to be held
Speaker 2: accountable for the murders that he's committed, that he's admitted
Speaker 2: to committed to committing, and the people who have been
Speaker 2: you know, tossed under the bus, like dan Odie and
Speaker 2: Leo need to be fully exonerated. And so you know,
Speaker 2: that's sort of the position I'm in, but I don't
Speaker 2: I never felt like I was giving him a platform
Speaker 2: to speak about because he didn't really have any issues.
Speaker 2: He was just really just talking to me. And I
Speaker 2: don't think he's really trying to get anything out of
Speaker 2: anybody except he wants to meet his family. He wants
Speaker 2: family in his life.
Speaker 1: Well, for me, I feel like the importance of this
Speaker 1: season again just shows that. I think it kind of
Speaker 1: shows why it's important to understand Jeremy because then we
Speaker 1: know how we got here, right, We know in some
Speaker 1: cases how this quote monster is made and by understanding
Speaker 1: that we can prevent that perhaps.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's really important, you know, Like
Speaker 2: there was something that the judge said of Jeremy when
Speaker 2: he first got arrested for murder at age fifteen. He
Speaker 2: dealt with Jeremy like a lot in the juvenile system,
Speaker 2: and he just said, I don't think anybody's surprised to
Speaker 2: see Jeremy Scott here in this court charge with murder,
Speaker 2: Like there was nothing anybody could do about that, Like
Speaker 2: he'd been put in juvenile detention facilities.
Speaker 1: Anyone have intervened, Like like, was there a point in
Speaker 1: his life someone could have intervened and we wouldn't be here.
Speaker 2: I think it would have been asking a lot, Like
Speaker 2: he literally was homeless at nine. He was out on
Speaker 2: the streets committing crimes at age nine. His first arrest
Speaker 2: was at ten, I think, you know. And also he
Speaker 2: had he had like a traumatic head injury which also
Speaker 2: affected him. So he's got like a low IQ like
Speaker 2: in the seventies, he's got brain damage. You know, he
Speaker 2: was abusing drugs and alcohol like before he was a teenager,
Speaker 2: and his family really wasn't there for him. So I
Speaker 2: don't know who else would have been there at the
Speaker 2: point him, you know, he didn't really do very well
Speaker 2: in school, was in and out of school. I think
Speaker 2: there could have been things like if somebody in a
Speaker 2: juvenile detention center had come across him and maybe taken
Speaker 2: some interest, or maybe a foster family. But it just
Speaker 2: seemed like this inevitable path that he was leading towards
Speaker 2: it as he was getting more and more violent, more
Speaker 2: and more desperate on the streets. But yes, could something
Speaker 2: have been done. Yes, the social programs, you know, those
Speaker 2: are things I don't really feel qualified to talk about
Speaker 2: those that part of the system, but I recognize it's
Speaker 2: something that you got to give kids some kind of chance,
Speaker 2: even people like Jeremy, because the damage that they can do.
Speaker 2: Just go and ask the dozens and dozens of victims
Speaker 2: of his violence. Do they think something could have been
Speaker 2: done or should have been done? Though the first thing
Speaker 2: they'll say is yes, that would have been great if
Speaker 2: we could have prevented this, Whether because Justin had grown
Speaker 2: up constantly hearing you know, you're not your father, you're
Speaker 2: not your father. You know, when he when he had
Speaker 2: a temper tantrum or something like that, he worried about
Speaker 2: to am, I carrying the DNA of a map of
Speaker 2: a person who's killed a bunch of people, and so
Speaker 2: he was afraid of that. And you know, at the end,
Speaker 2: Jamie sort of acknowledged. She said, you know, Jeremy had
Speaker 2: a charming side, he had a sweet side. He had compassion,
Speaker 2: which you know, if you listen to the podcast, you
Speaker 2: can feel it. He does have it, you can see it.
Speaker 2: He's not the monster that you know. He's done evil things,
Speaker 2: but he's not the monster you imagine when you think
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Leo even said that too, he wanted a villain, he
Speaker 1: wanted someone he could just like seethe and hate and
Speaker 1: that's not him.
Speaker 2: Right, And the first time he saw Jeremy, he's like,
Speaker 2: it's not that guy. You know, he felt sorry for him,
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people do feel sorry
Speaker 2: for him. But Jamie, you know, finally acknowledged that. You know,
Speaker 2: he is his father, but he's the good side of Jeremy.
Speaker 2: And you know, having spent a lot of time on
Speaker 2: the phone and talking to Jeremy, I did see that
Speaker 2: good side. There was no doubt, Like, I'm sure there
Speaker 2: are people who don't have a good side, but he's
Speaker 2: not one of them. He's remorseful all the all the
Speaker 2: remorse that the state expects Leo to show. Well, Leo's
Speaker 2: got a claim of innocence, He's never shown the remorse.
Speaker 2: Jeremy's showing that remorse all the time. He constantly talks
Speaker 2: about the victims and the people he's hurt, and he
Speaker 2: gets emotional about it. And and I think, you know,
Speaker 2: Jamie's saying that made Justin sort of acknowledge it and
Speaker 2: accept it. And you know, he said, I am my father.
Speaker 2: I look exactly like my father, have the same eyes,
Speaker 2: we have a very similar voice. I was listening to
Speaker 2: the tape of Jeremy at this like as a teenager
Speaker 2: confessing the police, and you know, he sounds exactly like Justin.
Speaker 2: It was really weird. And to hear like Jamie talk
Speaker 2: about that saying, you know, as he grew up, seeing
Speaker 2: him like wondering, I'm like, Gods, I get chills because
Speaker 2: it looked like I was looking at Jeremy and you
Speaker 2: can imagine somebody like that who's been like, you know,
Speaker 2: thrown into a police car, you know, accused of murder
Speaker 2: and and you know, beaten by Jeremy and all these
Speaker 2: things like it would traumatic, but for her to acknowledge,
Speaker 2: you know, that Justin carried the good side of Jeremy,
Speaker 2: and I think that's, you know, hopefully, that's Jeremy's greatest
Speaker 2: legacy is that his son went on to be this
Speaker 2: beautiful person. And I really mean this sincerely. I call
Speaker 2: him a kid. Everybody calls him a kid. He's thirty five,
Speaker 2: but he feels like a kid a lot of times
Speaker 2: when you're talking to him, and you know, he just
Speaker 2: says some really profound things about forgiveness and acceptance that
Speaker 2: you know, he's There's a lot of people in this
Speaker 2: story that can make me cry, but he's one of
Speaker 2: them automatically just to be he shows the same kind
Speaker 2: of grace that I think Leo shows in a lot
Speaker 2: of this story. And I'm just really honored to know
Speaker 2: him because when I first met him, I thought, who's
Speaker 2: this crazy kid? I'm now it's Jeremy Scott's son who's
Speaker 2: going to reach out to me, And he was nothing
Speaker 2: like I expected. And I really think so highly of him,
Speaker 2: and I love talking to him and catching up with him,
Speaker 2: and he's a hugger and it's just like such a
Speaker 2: sweet thing to see him around.
Speaker 1: He looks like Jeremy. I was I was not expecting
Speaker 1: him to look like Jeremy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really looks a lot like him.
Speaker 1: I have to see a picture, Gilbert King. You are
Speaker 1: doing the lord's work, so thank you.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks magg It's always pleasure to talking