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Speaker 1: Gilbert King, Hello, it's great to see you. I just

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Speaker 1: finished listening to season two, and I did not think

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Speaker 1: it was possible to be better or equal to one.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say better, but it is absolutely fantastic, and

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Speaker 1: I have to say it is the most perfect epilogue

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Speaker 1: to season one. I don't think I would have wanted

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Speaker 1: to hear something different.

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Speaker 2: That's really nice. I don't know what to say to.

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Speaker 1: That, but yeah, well, I know you guys struggled a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Season two's are very difficult to make.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and you're trying to figure out what

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Speaker 2: do people already know and what don't they know? And

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Speaker 2: why is this even worth doing? Is it just seemed

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Speaker 2: like we're tagging on a bunch of bonus episode, right,

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Speaker 2: you know? But thanks for saying that, because you know

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Speaker 2: it didn't come together easily, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I can feel the heart and care for

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Speaker 1: these characters, and I do want to talk about that

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Speaker 1: a bit. But the first thing that is on most

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Speaker 1: people's minds is how is Leo? What is his condition?

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Speaker 1: How is he?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, Leo, we've gotten a really bad

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Speaker 2: motorcycle lax in January, and he was confined to a

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Speaker 2: bed for three months, couldn't get out, couldn't bear weight,

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Speaker 2: and it was pretty bad. He broke a lot of bones,

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Speaker 2: his back, torn bladder and it was horrific injuries. And

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Speaker 2: his daughter was riding on back and she had some

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Speaker 2: pretty severe injuries too. And so I was just down

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Speaker 2: there recently and he's finally out of bed and he

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Speaker 2: can get into a wheelchair.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: He's still got some leg issues that he's trying to

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Speaker 2: deal with, but overall, I would say he's markedly improved.

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Speaker 2: His mood is much better because he can get out.

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Speaker 2: He can actually drive a car now, he's got one

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Speaker 2: good leg and so he's able to do that, and

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Speaker 2: that makes a big difference psychologically, And so he's healing.

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Speaker 2: He didn't think he would play guitar again. His wrists

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Speaker 2: were just completely smashed. He's had six surgeries on his hands,

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Speaker 2: but he was playing guitar. He still got a cast on,

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Speaker 2: he's still got some more surgeries. Picture with the cast

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Speaker 2: and him holding yeah, So he's like that makes a

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Speaker 2: big difference psychologically. So I think he's really made really

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Speaker 2: solid strides to getting back to Noise, even though I

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Speaker 2: doubt he'll ever be fully one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: You didn't really feature his daughter in this season. Was

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Speaker 1: there a reason for that?

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Speaker 2: No, not really. You know, it's just like she just

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Speaker 2: didn't really have a role in this you know, Chrissy

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Speaker 2: was just barely in it too. We sort of just

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Speaker 2: pivoted away from Leo a little bit more into the

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Speaker 2: other side, Jeremy's side, and so it sort of limited

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Speaker 2: the amount of people we could really concentrate on. I

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Speaker 2: would it would be nice to give some more updates

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Speaker 2: on the whole you know, Bone Valley universe, I guess

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Speaker 2: you'd say, And we may do that at some point soon,

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Speaker 2: but but this time we were just trying to be

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Speaker 2: as tightly focused on Jeremy in this part of the story.

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Speaker 1: So listeners also really want to know about Jeremy and

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Speaker 1: Leo's relationship. Now, did they keep one? Have they spoken again?

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Speaker 2: They have not spoken again yet. You know, it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's just a very difficult thing for Leo to do.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I think it really worked well is

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Speaker 2: that he was so spontaneous. Jeremy had called me and

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Speaker 2: I just happened to be standing there with Leo, and

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Speaker 2: I just spontaneously said, do you guys want to talk,

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Speaker 2: and they did, but I'm not sure Leo, would you

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Speaker 2: reach out to Jeremy and want to have further conversations

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Speaker 2: with him. I think he'd be happy to meet with him,

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Speaker 2: but it's just not something with Jeremy in prison. He's

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Speaker 2: back in solitary confinement and Leos still struggling with health

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Speaker 2: a little bit. We haven't even been thinking about that.

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Speaker 2: But at some point, because Leo went through that CTP program,

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Speaker 2: the Transition program, he is able to go into prisons again,

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Speaker 2: and so he can actually visit Jeremy, and he said

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Speaker 2: he wants to do that sometimes. Yeah, he does. And

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Speaker 2: Jeremy specifically said, you know, I hope someday I can

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Speaker 2: sit face to face with Leo and apologize for what

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Speaker 2: I've done. And I think they would both get something

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Speaker 2: out of that experience. I know both of them would,

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Speaker 2: and so I think it will happen at some point,

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Speaker 2: but right now, there's just too much going on between

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Speaker 2: both of them.

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Speaker 1: When we last heard from Jeremy, he was writing with

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Speaker 1: Justin and he was wanting to do better. He was

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Speaker 1: not in the hole at that time. He was out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: can you talk about what happened you know.

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Speaker 2: What it is is he got transferred back to a

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Speaker 2: facility where he'd been several years ago and where he

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Speaker 2: had some incidents, including the stabbing incident. And so he

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Speaker 2: went back there and there were some people there that

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Speaker 2: had grudges and he he didn't feel safe there. I

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Speaker 2: think at one point he'd gotten into a fight with

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Speaker 2: an inmate. Wasn't really much of a fight. Jeremy told

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Speaker 2: me the guy just beat him up, and so he

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Speaker 2: sort of requested that he go back in the solitary.

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Speaker 2: He felt safer there. And you know, Jeremy's not the

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Speaker 2: most how to describe this, but he's not the most

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Speaker 2: thoughtful person when it comes to how do I protect

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Speaker 2: myself and get back in? And so he ended up

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Speaker 2: having a conversation with an authority and they said, well,

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Speaker 2: it's not that easy, and then he just said, well,

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Speaker 2: I'll hurt somebody and get back in. And by saying that,

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Speaker 2: he got back in. So he's back and see him too,

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Speaker 2: and so I don't know, he's not really able to

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Speaker 2: have visitors until he gets another I think, another move

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Speaker 2: up in the stratosphere of CMS. But they are still

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Speaker 2: writing to each other and they do want to meet

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Speaker 2: Jeremy and his son Justin. They do want to meet its.

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Speaker 2: Jeremy makes it a little difficult sometimes with his behavior

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Speaker 2: in the prisons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where is Justin's thought process at at this moment?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think Justin's also got He just moved,

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Speaker 2: he changed jobs, he's got a new family, a new child,

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Speaker 2: and so he's been a little bit like this is

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Speaker 2: my priority right now. But he told me, look, it's

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Speaker 2: going to start clearing up right around now, and I

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Speaker 2: want to start revisiting this again. So I think he

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Speaker 2: will get back into it. And you know, he's been writing,

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Speaker 2: but he hasn't really made an effort to get up

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Speaker 2: there yet. And he needs me for that, and I

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Speaker 2: want to be there for that too.

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Speaker 1: I really love I haven't listened to any other podcasts where,

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Speaker 1: without beating you over the head with it, we're exploring

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Speaker 1: male emotions and these things that men don't often talk about.

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Speaker 1: And hearing you know, Jeremy, this like big tough guy,

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Speaker 1: prisoner murderer talk about these very intimate things. Can you

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Speaker 1: just tell me a bit about your thought process when

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Speaker 1: you guys decided to leave so much of that in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's just these are the kind of

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Speaker 2: conversations I tended to have with him. He didn't really

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Speaker 2: try to pull the tough guy routine at me. He

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Speaker 2: sounded very broken early in the beginning when I started

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Speaker 2: talking to him. He was just always in a really

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Speaker 2: bad place, just bad things were happening to him. And

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Speaker 2: I think the market difference I noticed is when I

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Speaker 2: started sending them books, and he wanted to talk about

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Speaker 2: the books he was reading, and you know, he read

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Speaker 2: a lot of Westerns and some James Patterson, Stephen King

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff. But I would send them, you know,

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Speaker 2: books that my kids were reading back in the day,

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Speaker 2: like Game of Thrones and and Hunger Games and things

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Speaker 2: like that, just because I thought something more modern and

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Speaker 2: I was familiar with these stories, and he talked about

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Speaker 2: them in a way like, you know, he really lamented

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Speaker 2: the way the author was killing off the characters and

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Speaker 2: of Thrones, and how much he liked, you know, the

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Speaker 2: adventure part of Hunger Games. And I just felt like

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Speaker 2: he was talking to me differently than he was in

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Speaker 2: the beginning, and he would get emotional about things and

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Speaker 2: he would show this kind of empathy, and then he

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Speaker 2: started speaking about his remorse and his great you know,

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Speaker 2: regrets in life, you know, disappointing his family, and you know,

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Speaker 2: that's the way I've always talked with Leo. We talked

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Speaker 2: about those kind of things and he just fell right

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Speaker 2: into it. And I didn't feel like I was forcing

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Speaker 2: him to talk about more sensitive things. They were really

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Speaker 2: coming from him, and I really enjoyed hearing that side

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Speaker 2: of him. For some reason. It was just it just

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Speaker 2: made me see a different side of him. There were

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Speaker 2: stories he would tell about his childhood sometimes that it

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Speaker 2: were just like made him laugh, and you know, you

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Speaker 2: would just have these recollections that maybe hadn't thought about

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Speaker 2: in a while, and just to hear somebody in those

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Speaker 2: dire conditions laugh about something a memory really moved me emotionally.

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Speaker 2: And so when he was willing to explore that, I

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Speaker 2: just kept going there. And I don't regret it at all.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's times where I get really emotionally. You

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Speaker 2: can hear me and especially talking to Justin, We're likely

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Speaker 2: you can hear me kind of sniffle in the background,

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Speaker 2: but like that's just the way we roll.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm about to cry and thinking about the

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Speaker 1: at the end where he says he'll claim his body. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know that talking about death in prison is something

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Speaker 1: And this brings me to the next thing I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about. When I was doing the

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Speaker 1: Suave podcast, you know, that was one of the first

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Speaker 1: things Swabi said when you get to prison is they

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Speaker 1: ask you where do you want your body sent? And

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Speaker 1: so then to hear Jeremy talking about something that I

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Speaker 1: knew was something they ask and he's been thinking about that, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's really bad for him because he's

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Speaker 2: lost touch with his family. Yeah, and so for like

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Speaker 2: over a decade, he just hasn't had any corresponds. He

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Speaker 2: didn't know where they were, like, he couldn't get anything

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Speaker 2: from them. So I was giving him updates, and I

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Speaker 2: think by talking about the people in his past, he

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Speaker 2: was thinking about those connections again and the idea of

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Speaker 2: being you know, very In that prison cemetery up there,

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty dismal place. I mean literally, they have,

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Speaker 2: you know, the prison's license plant tag and prints up

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Speaker 2: your name, your date of death, and your prison number

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Speaker 2: and that's it. And they're just out in the field

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Speaker 2: and it's just not really well maintained, and you know,

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Speaker 2: there's no flowers there, and I don't know what.

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Speaker 1: He's seen or heard of potters Field.

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Speaker 2: It is Potter's Field. And I just think the idea

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Speaker 2: of just not being able to get out of that prison,

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Speaker 2: even in death, just really depressed him. And he was

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Speaker 2: talking about it a lot. And you know, so then

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Speaker 2: they hear Justin say I'll claim him. I just that

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Speaker 2: kind of blew me away. I wasn't even expecting that.

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Speaker 1: So how do you navigate that line between your emotional

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Speaker 1: involvement with these people and being able to tell the

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Speaker 1: story objectively? I don't think you do you consider yourself

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Speaker 1: a journalist?

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Speaker 2: Not really. I mean I used journalism sure in it,

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Speaker 2: but I never came up from that background. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was just thinking about this just yesterday because like

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like I Jeremy Books, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know if like if I worked for like a journal,

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Speaker 2: like a newspaper like the New York Times, I'd be

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Speaker 2: allowed to do that.

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Speaker 1: You would not be allowed to do it.

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Speaker 2: That was a groundbreaking thing that enabled me to develop

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Speaker 2: this sort of you know, compassion, but also just this

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Speaker 2: bond with Jeremy over books, and it kind of fit perfectly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a writer, like let's talk about books.

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Speaker 2: And we talked about that, and I just feel like

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Speaker 2: it opened up a great and I would hate to

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Speaker 2: not have that tool in my toolbox to do this

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Speaker 2: kind of things. And so like, I don't I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I feel like as long as I'm sort of being

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Speaker 2: honest with the subject, being honest with myself and trying

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Speaker 2: to respect listeners, you know, you don't want to be like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm also trying to get Jeremy out

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Speaker 2: of prison. That's my goal here. You know, like nobody

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Speaker 2: wants Jeremy out of prison. He can't get out of prison.

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Speaker 2: He's too violent, he has no self control, he's not

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Speaker 2: someone you want out there. But then I just thought, well,

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Speaker 2: what's the best thing you can hope for from Jeremy?

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Speaker 2: And even if I was a prosecutor, I think the

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Speaker 2: same answer would be, you know that he just admits

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Speaker 2: to what he did and maybe tries to ease the

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Speaker 2: suffering of the victims and the families and victims that

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Speaker 2: he's hurt. That's about the best you can hope for him.

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Speaker 2: And that's what he was doing. And so to me,

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Speaker 2: it was like a win win. I've gotten letters from

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Speaker 2: people in the Florida Corrections high level people that you know,

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Speaker 2: have told me that you have no idea how good

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Speaker 2: this is for the entire system, to show that to

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Speaker 2: establish connections with family, it's one of the most important

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Speaker 2: things for prisoners. So we thank you. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: I didn't expect to get.

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Speaker 1: That from these No, that's really interesting. Actually, can you

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Speaker 1: elaborate on that a little bit? So when you were

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Speaker 1: helping Jeremy connect with family, yeah, they said to you,

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Speaker 1: this is good for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Well, they came out to me after they heard the podcast, okay,

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Speaker 2: and one of the guys wrote me a letter, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, he said, you know, I was the one

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Speaker 2: that set up the field mission program in the Florida

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Speaker 2: Department of Corrections, so I knew who Leo was, and

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Speaker 2: I just want to say, like, I listened to your

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Speaker 2: podcast and like that what you're doing by bringing families

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Speaker 2: closer together, it improved behavior of people like Jeremy. And

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Speaker 2: he was like thankful for it. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: ended up talking to Leo about it and Leo says,

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Speaker 2: I know that guy, like it's amazing, Like this guy,

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Speaker 2: I can't believe he wrote you that letter.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So you know, so, I always felt like we were

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Speaker 2: doing this conscientiously. We're not trying to expose the prisons

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Speaker 2: as being, you know, these horrible, violent places. That's part

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Speaker 2: of the story, but we're showing another side to it

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Speaker 2: where you know, someone's trying to get some kind of

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Speaker 2: redemption and turn his life around in a positive way,

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Speaker 2: and that that can never be a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I know a lot of cops and they get asked

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Speaker 3: all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated

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Speaker 3: to a future where the answer will always be no.

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Speaker 3: This is Absolute Season one Taser Incorporated.

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Speaker 2: I get right back there and it's bad.

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Speaker 4: Listen to all episodes of Absolute Season one Taser Incorporated

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Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 4: your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: So people want to know, is the State of Florida

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Speaker 1: ever going to admit it's wrongdoing in this Do you

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Speaker 1: think they're moving?

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Speaker 2: You know, I do believe that they will, as a

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Speaker 2: general state will admit that they got this wrong. I

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Speaker 2: don't think the circuit where this case took place, I

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Speaker 2: don't think they'll ever admit they got it wrong. But

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Speaker 2: I do think that. You know, there's some powerful people

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Speaker 2: in Leo's corner that are pushing for this. And I've

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Speaker 2: gone through this before in Florida. When I wrote DEVI

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Speaker 2: on the grove, I felt the momentum build and I

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Speaker 2: felt politician saying we got to fix this. This is

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Speaker 2: just embarrassing. And I think Leo's case is similar. I mean,

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Speaker 2: anyone who looks into it, you know pretty much that

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Speaker 2: you got the wrong guy and that he should never

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Speaker 2: have been convicted. But he did get convicted, and but

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Speaker 2: that needs to be corrected. And I have high confidence

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Speaker 2: that this is going to happen. I don't know when,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it'll be with the same governor,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how it's going to look. But I

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Speaker 2: have no doubt that this is going to happen. And

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Speaker 2: just because I think Florida understands unlike a lot of

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Speaker 2: other states, Florida understands that the integrity of the criminal

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Speaker 2: justice system is also at play, and it improves the

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Speaker 2: integrity by addressing these past injustices to just say, you

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Speaker 2: know what, that was wrong, we got that wrong. We're

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Speaker 2: not just going to sweep it under rug and not

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Speaker 2: admit we blew it. Let's let's just be honest about this,

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Speaker 2: And I've seen them do it in the past, and

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Speaker 2: so I have confidence that it's going to happen again.

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Speaker 1: This isn't necessary like on record or whatever. But that's

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Speaker 1: interesting about Florida because I feel like we never often

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Speaker 1: cover case innocence cases from there, and that makes me

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Speaker 1: think that they're not really being proactive. Like I don't

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Speaker 1: know too many innocence cases down there that are high

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not that easy. I shouldn't really separate

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Speaker 2: so much, but I just I've seen it. I've seen

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Speaker 2: it happen in the past, exonerations coming out of Florida

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Speaker 2: and admitting they got it wrong. And it's just to me,

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Speaker 2: it's just that's what I'm clinging to, Like I've seen

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Speaker 2: this happen in the past. I've been involved with some

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Speaker 2: of them in the past, you know. But there are

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Speaker 2: some really tricky innocence cases down there. If you talk

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Speaker 2: to Seth Miller, a to the Innocence Project, he could

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Speaker 2: probably tell you how frustrating the state is. But I'm

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Speaker 2: only mostly looking through the lens of the cases I

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Speaker 2: get involved in that I do expect some kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, movement on this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just thinking like when I think of states

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Speaker 1: with like mass exonerations and thinking like Michigan. You see

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Speaker 1: all the guys in Michigan in Chicago. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: Florida was doing so much.

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Speaker 2: No, they're doing individual cases. I think, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the cases I look at in Florida for the most part,

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Speaker 2: and this is a generalization, but I think it's more

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Speaker 2: like one prosecutor's office. It's not like the police. I mean, granted,

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Speaker 2: there are those kind of cases out there, but in

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Speaker 2: the case I've looked at, it seems to be the

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Speaker 2: prosecuted office so really fighting for that conviction and maybe

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Speaker 2: willing to ben some ethical rules to get there. Whereas

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Speaker 2: you know, even in the Leo's case, like, I don't

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Speaker 2: think the police did a really bad job on it.

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Speaker 2: I think they were you know, they didn't have the

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Speaker 2: manpower they needed, and there was a lot of unsolved

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Speaker 2: murders happening, a lot of administrative complications. But I think

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Speaker 2: mostly they did a pretty good job and they couldn't

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Speaker 2: solve the case. And that's when the prosecutor came in

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Speaker 2: and said, I'll fix it. And that's when everything started changing.

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Speaker 2: All the evidence suddenly got beautiful, and you know that

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Speaker 2: the police after sixteen months couldn't put that together. But

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Speaker 2: prosecutor comes in and all of a sudden, case changes. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know what happened there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, we can talk about that when we

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Speaker 1: talk about Graves County.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: But so there was a moment in episode four for

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Speaker 1: me where it clicked and I you know, in my head,

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Speaker 1: I went, wow, this this exact moment. It was when

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Speaker 1: you were realizing how that there were other people Jeremy

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Speaker 1: had murdered. And for me, it was so clear in

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Speaker 1: that moment that this is why we have to get

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Speaker 1: it right right away and convict the right person. Were

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Speaker 1: you intending to show that, because that's what I got

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Speaker 1: was if Jeremy, if Leo was not convicted, if this

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Speaker 1: case stayed open and they pursued the right person, would

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Speaker 1: these other people have died?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't think so. And I honestly like they

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Speaker 2: had Jeremy Scott's fingerprints in Michelle's car, you know, right

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Speaker 2: after the murder, and there was a detective with the

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Speaker 2: Polk County Sheriff's Office who invested Jeremy investigated Jeremy for

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Speaker 2: a prior murder about a year and a half earlier,

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Speaker 2: and he got to quit it on it. So he

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Speaker 2: knew that Jeremy was back on the streets in this

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Speaker 2: part of Lakeland where Michelle disappeared. Right there. Why don't

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Speaker 2: you take those unidentified fingerprints and just manually compare them

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Speaker 2: to known violent suspects in the area. That would have

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Speaker 2: led you right to Jeremy, and that would have been

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Speaker 2: the end of it right there. But unfortunately that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: So he goes on to kill Michelle, doesn't get caught.

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Speaker 2: Six weeks later, he kills a cab driver, doesn't get caught,

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Speaker 2: and a year after that he kills another man in Lakeland.

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Speaker 2: And then through this investigation, I'm meeting the family members

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Speaker 2: of these you know, the victims, and it's just heartbreaking

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Speaker 2: to see the trauma that they carry and just.

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Speaker 1: And none of it needed to happen, if they just

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Speaker 1: if they just arrested the right person.

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Speaker 2: Right and to be honest with the like in the

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Speaker 2: in these cases, like they had forensic evidence that would

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Speaker 2: link Jeremy, and so just it's amazing to me that

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Speaker 2: they couldn't put it together and take him off the streets,

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Speaker 2: and when you just see the ripple effect of like

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Speaker 2: you know, even in Leo's case, like Leo's family, Michelle's family,

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Speaker 2: just like dozens of victims out there that you know,

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Speaker 2: if he'd have been caught and taken off the streets,

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Speaker 2: none of this would have happened. And so like, you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't hear the police ever talking about that, or

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Speaker 2: the prosecutors ever talking about that. You know, by not

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Speaker 2: doing their jobs right.

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Speaker 1: They have blood on their hands literally, really really.

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Speaker 2: And you know some of it. I get it. There's

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Speaker 2: unsolved murders out there. There are tricky, but to me,

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Speaker 2: these weren't tricky. I mean, he left fingerprints at every

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Speaker 2: murder he committed. And so like, well, what's the problem.

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Speaker 1: Here, listeners want to know? Is Judge Cups still involved?

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Speaker 2: You know, Judge cup is still involved. He's very much

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Speaker 2: you know, Leo's attorney. And yes, he's doing a lot.

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Speaker 2: We've we've done some speaking events where we go out

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Speaker 2: together and speak, and he's really itching to get more involved.

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Speaker 2: And like, Judge, you stepped off the bench to help Leo,

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Speaker 2: Like there's not much more you could really do? You really,

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Speaker 2: you led me to this case to begin with, and

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Speaker 2: then you quit your job. You had years left on

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Speaker 2: the bench to be Leo's lawyer. You've done everything you

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Speaker 2: need to do. But he just feels like he cannot

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Speaker 2: rest until Leo is exonerated. And you know, I kind

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Speaker 2: of respect that at him. He's he's got a real

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Speaker 2: bulldog in him.

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Speaker 1: You know, I love that. That's great. So how can

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Speaker 1: we support Leo? And is there anything else you want

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Speaker 1: us to know about Leo or anything going on in

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Speaker 1: the Bone Valley World?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? The only thing you know, Leo does have a

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Speaker 2: GoFundMe page out there. Because of his injuries, he can't

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Speaker 2: work and so he was working as a mechanic in

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Speaker 2: an auto shop and like those days are gone. So

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Speaker 2: he may have an assistant pastor position that's coming his way,

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Speaker 2: which I think he'd be ideal for. He's a great speaker.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I just think stay tuned to the

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Speaker 2: Bone Valley World, will will? You know? The time may

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Speaker 2: come when we need petitions and we need support, and

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Speaker 2: we're just waiting for that day to come.

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Speaker 1: Have Justin and Jamie listened to the podcast. What do

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Speaker 1: they think about it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, and I was really sensitive about this,

434
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 2: because you know, it was one of the things that

435
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: made this story so hard is that once Jamie agreed

436
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 2: to talk to you, to us, what we're going to

437
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: really ask her, and it's about her relationship with Jeremy,

438
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 2: probably the worst two years of her life. Really. You know,

439
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 2: she's how old was she then? She was seventeen and

440
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: eighteen and she gets hooked up with Jeremy, who's the

441
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,560
Speaker 2: same age, and you know, Jeremy's in and out of

442
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 2: jail and you know, just constantly being violent on the streets,

443
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: and and she's kind of this kid who's like, you know,

444
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 2: a good student, she's you know, she's got a house,

445
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 2: she's not homeless like Jeremy. Yet she's kind of interested

446
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 2: in this world of a new boyfriend. And it's Jeremy though,

447
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: you know. And so there's a lot of you know,

448
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 2: abuse that she suffered and a lot of like trauma,

449
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 2: and so that was really the hard thing to talk

450
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 2: to her about and just make her bring that all

451
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 2: out again. And so, you know, I was really concerned

452
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: about how she might take it because you know, some

453
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: of it is just so upsetting. She doesn't talked to

454
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 2: anybody about it, but I did talk to her after

455
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 2: it came and she was she like begrudgingly conceded that

456
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 2: she did feel some empathy for Jeremy after all this,

457
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: and she was she said, I'm really proud of this

458
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: way you handled the story. And she goes, I just think,

459
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 2: like you did a really good job with this, and

460
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: you were very fair, and you didn't you didn't sugarcoat anything,

461
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 2: and you didn't shy away from anything. So she was,

462
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 2: she was very fine with it, and she just really

463
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,959
Speaker 2: wants to meet Leo one day. And that's like what

464
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: everybody tells me. Justin, on the other hand, has listened

465
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: to five episodes and I think he emotionally is so

466
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: moved by it that he told me because I just

467
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: I'm not ready to listen to the last episode. I

468
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: told him, you're gonna have to like find a quiet

469
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 2: place and get away from people and listen to listen

470
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: to it privately because it might be a lot for you,

471
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: because it was a lot for us just working on it.

472
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: And I haven't heard back from on episode six, so

473
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: that was a couple of weeks ago, so you know,

474
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: I think I think he's gonna be fine. He really,

475
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 2: he was just so impressed with like Mary and some

476
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 2: of the other people in the story who were looking

477
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: out for his father, including Oscar who was the you know,

478
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: one of the inmates who was looking out of him.

479
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: Have him and Mary spoken, Yes.

480
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 2: They continue to speak. They have a really sweet relationship.

481
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 2: I mean the letters and you've heard them, but like

482
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: they she's just like this motherly figure to Jeremy and

483
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: he really does allow her to play that role in

484
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: his life. And he also is concerned about her and

485
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 2: asks about her. And it's like that was another side

486
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,479
Speaker 2: of Jeremy that I'd never seen before. Somebody was like,

487
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: you know, talking to Mary and telling make sure she

488
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: takes her medicines, make sure you don't work too hard,

489
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 2: get some rest, you know, falling into these this kind

490
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: of role like a concerned son. But yeah, and Mary

491
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: and I have talked about it, like, you know, I said, look,

492
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 2: you've been doing a lot for this and I don't

493
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: want to. People are writing to me and they want

494
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 2: to talk to Jeremy and they want to give him

495
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: money for his canteen and do you want me to

496
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: just keep forwarding these to you? And She's like, I'm

497
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: in this for life, Like I'm in it. I was like,

498
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: that told me everything I needed to know about Mary

499
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 2: likes she's not going to abandon him, like she's going

500
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 2: to be there for as long as he needs her.

501
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: Amazing.

502
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that was like the beauty of

503
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: the second season was just you know, you're really dealing

504
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: with a really dark story, but on the other hand,

505
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 2: you're seeing the best of people caring about each other.

506
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 2: And you know, it was really Justin's words. He said

507
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 2: people coming together, careing about people, and I really couldn't

508
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: have put it, you know better, And I didn't even

509
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: see that ever coming in this story, but it was

510
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: from Justin and that so that meant a lot to

511
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: me to just hear it from him.

512
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So has you know, you mentioned the people are

513
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: writing a lot of letters they want to talk to Jeremy.

514
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: Has anyone else kind of really stepped in like Mary has.

515
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: They haven't really stepped in to do things, but they

516
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: want to help him. And I was kind of surprised

517
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: because it's been mostly women, but there's been some men

518
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: in there that have been moved enough to say, look,

519
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: I don't I just feel bad for this guy. I

520
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: don't want to see him get out of prison. I

521
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: don't want to be his pen pal like Mary, but

522
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: I just feel bad. This guy's you know, undergone so

523
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: much in his life, and so I just want to

524
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 2: give him something to make his life easier. So yeah,

525
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: and there's been quite a few, you know. Honestly, I

526
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: would say more people have reached out to me about

527
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: Jeremy than Leo, believe it or not. You know, I

528
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: think it's probably because because Leo has a support system

529
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,959
Speaker 2: already and Jeremy doesn't really have much of that, so

530
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: they don't really need to feel the need to step

531
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: in and help Leo, but they support him. But yeah,

532
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: I'm really surprised by it, and I've had like prosecutors

533
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: and cops even comment on it, saying, you know, I

534
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 2: didn't think I could feel bad for this guy, but

535
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: I really do.

536
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: I think it's really groundbreaking. I mean I think, you know,

537
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: there's been other shows and stuff, like one of my

538
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: favorite shows is I Am a Killer. It's on Netflix,

539
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: and I've even written some of those people on that show.

540
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: I just felt so compelled by how tragic their lives were.

541
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: And yes they're a murderer, but yeah, I did the

542
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: same thing. I wrote a guy and said, I just

543
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: saw your story. I just wanted to let you know

544
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: that I give a shit about you.

545
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 2: You're a human being.

546
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's all it takes is to just let someone

547
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: know that someone cares about you.

548
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: And I think it's just those notes. I mean, even

549
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: if they're not going to contribute any money. And I

550
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: understand that's just to say.

551
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: I hear you, because it's you were meant in prison

552
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: to be locked away and forgotten about, right right. So

553
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: to tell them I heard you, I heard your story

554
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: means so much.

555
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: I know it's been a lot to Jeremy too. You know,

556
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: at one point he wrote me a letter and he goes,

557
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just going to tell you everything because

558
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 2: people seem to listen to you, and he felt like

559
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: he just nobody listened to him. You know, they abuse

560
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: him in court, they call him a liar, and you

561
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 2: know everything, and you know he is for the last

562
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: four years sinside him. He's been trying to do the

563
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: right thing. He feels horrible that Leo's in prison for

564
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: a crime that he committed, and he recognizes that the family,

565
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: Michelle's family is like suffering because of his actions, and

566
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: you know, and also he's let his family down, and

567
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: he's just recognizing that if I just tell the truth,

568
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: it's bringing my family back into my life, and it's

569
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: actually helping a guy who shouldn't be in prison. And

570
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: so I think people hear that and recognize that there's

571
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: not much else he can do. But that's one big

572
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: step towards doing the right thing that should be commended.

573
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 2: And I think he feels that, and so I feel

574
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: really good that he feels some kind of you know,

575
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: relief and satisfaction that he's done the right thing. One time,

576
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 2: he asked me to send because he can't listen to

577
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: the podcast, but people were saying things to him about it,

578
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: so he was hearing about his secondhand, and he knew.

579
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: I interviewed him and he asked if I could send

580
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: pages from what he'd said to me, and I sent

581
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 2: them and he said, I don't ever want to see

582
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: those pages again. They're so painful to read, but I

583
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: just wanted to have something that showed I did the

584
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: right thing once in my life. And I'm like, boy,

585
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: you know, how can you really just argue with something

586
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: like that? So it's from his heart, you know, So.

587
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: Do you think there's other things he has not admitted to.

588
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one case that I you know, and I'm

589
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: really slow with this stuff. I've known him for four

590
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: years and I'm really waiting for the right time, kind

591
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 2: of want to do it in person. But he has

592
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: the very first murder that it got charged with, he

593
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: pled not guilty, and they put on a defense that

594
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: it was somebody else who did it, which is not true.

595
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 2: But he hasn't fully fully to me confessed to that

596
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: those details of that. He's confess to other people saying

597
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: that he got away with that one, but to me,

598
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: he hasn't really explored it yet. And I kind of

599
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: stopped at that point because I do want to see

600
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: him in person, and so I have that conversation in person.

601
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to It's a tricky thing

602
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: when you're doing this kind of thing, like let's go

603
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: back to another really awful thing you did. I try

604
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: to temper that with, you know, conversations with about his

605
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: family and the positive things, and mostly with the later

606
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: murders that I was investigating. But I do want to

607
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: go back and revisit that because I think it's really

608
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: important that he talks to me about it in a

609
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: truthful way, but just sort of take accountability for it.

610
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: But he's got a lot of bitterness about the person

611
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: who who he accused of doing this. This person showed

612
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: up at his sentencing and was gloating and was making

613
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: faces at him in the courtroom, and so he's angry

614
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: at that guy, so that we have to get past

615
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: that anger phase to get to the truth. I think.

616
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: Your relationship with Justin it feels like you're this kind

617
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: of father figure in his life and he's learned so

618
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: much about himself. Do you do you think of it

619
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: that way?

620
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think about that until you just

621
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: mentioned that, because I don't know about you, but like

622
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: I just see, everybody's the same age, and so I

623
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: don't realize I'm a lot older than him. I am

624
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: a father figure in a lot of ways, so that

625
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: totally makes sense. But yes, you know, he would sometimes

626
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: look at me and just like can you help me,

627
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: like those kind of eyes, like I can't do this alone.

628
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: I need help. And you know, just even writing to

629
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: his father was difficult, but I got to say, you know,

630
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: I did help him with things, and I try to,

631
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, just respect how difficult this might be. It's

632
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: now I mentioned this like, it's not like like a

633
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: twenty three and Me kind of reunion. This is a

634
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: guy that you know is a murderer and his son

635
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: doesn't know what's true. He's heard all these stories about

636
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: his father killing possibly eleven people, and he wasn't really

637
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: aware of, you know, who his father was. He'd only

638
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: heard rumors. Nobody talked about it. And so part of

639
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: the whole premise of season two was that Jamie was

640
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: found it easier to talk to me and Kelsey about

641
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: this than she did talking to Justin about it, and

642
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: so she said, I'll tell you everything and then he

643
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: could learn it through you. And so there was this

644
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: really weird conduit thing that we used.

645
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: Did you feel on your position in that, Like, I

646
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: guess that goes back to my question about your role

647
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: as a storyteller journalist.

648
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: It felt really awkward because I felt like, you know,

649
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that can go wrong here,

650
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: and I don't want to bring him into a situation

651
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: where it just Jeremy's the chaos of Jeremy's life kind

652
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: of takes over and he's hurt by this. And so

653
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: we've talked a lot about that like trying to prepare him.

654
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: And I think he had a very realistic view of

655
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: who his father was, and that was just really me

656
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: just trying to help him understand that if you want

657
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: to reach out to your father, that's fine, but you

658
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: need to know who he is. And I got to

659
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: tell you all this stuff first and then you can

660
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: decide if you still want to go forward with this. Yeah,

661
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: it's an awkward thing. I don't really I've never been

662
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: in these kind of situations before, so I was really

663
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: just using intuition a lot. How would I want to

664
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: be treated in this situation, what do I think could

665
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: be useful, what's kind of off bounds that I shouldn't

666
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: be getting into, and just making sure everyone felt comfortable

667
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: proceeding in this way, And ultimately we did. We just

668
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: found a way to make it work and in a

669
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: way that I was very comfortable with, you know, ethically,

670
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: getting a little more involved than most journalists would get

671
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: involved in it, but I just felt like this was

672
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: necessary to the story. It felt more like a documentary

673
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: where you're embedded with the people. You know, We're not

674
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: taking sides about like guilt or innocence on this point.

675
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: It's just like, here's a human being who's suffering. He

676
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: is trying to help me with some of the cold

677
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: cases that were unsolved that he he's claimed responsibility for.

678
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: But there was really no issue with that. He was

679
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: very happy to talk about that stuff with me about it,

680
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: and so I didn't feel like I didn't ever feel

681
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: like I was like abusing my position, like Okay, I'm

682
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: sending you those books, so start giving me murders. You know,

683
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: it's never really got that. It was always I felt

684
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: like we were always very honest, and there were times

685
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: you just say, I don't want to talk about this anymore,

686
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: and we'd stop. This is respecting those kind of things

687
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: because it's more important about people's feelings and their mental

688
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: health than I think the story.

689
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: What would you say to people who you know, say

690
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: you're giving a murderer platform. What about victims? We don't

691
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: give a shit about this guy. Why are we hearing

692
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: the whole story about a murderer?

693
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those are questions I asked myself, you know,

694
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: like why are we doing this? What are we going?

695
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: What are we doing? And it wasn't until a long

696
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: time we were into this that we were still thinking

697
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if we have this, it doesn't seem

698
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: to be going in an interesting place. And then a

699
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: few things started to mostly around Justin and Justin's mood

700
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: and willingness to go further. But you know, I feel

701
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: like I'm not really just trying to create sympathy for Jeremy,

702
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: because that's not really what I'm trying to do. You know,

703
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: I am trying to get him charged for murders. Actually,

704
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: you know, and he knows that. He told me I

705
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: can be charged for this, but that's okay, let's keep talking.

706
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: So he knows I'm talking to law enforcement and that

707
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: my ultimate thing is to see him charged for the

708
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: murders he committed. You know, With that said, I don't

709
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: want to see him like suffer hardship because of you know,

710
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: my investigation. You know what. Granted, he's never getting out

711
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: of prison, so I don't think they're going to try him,

712
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, I think he would sign something,

713
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: and but you know, he can get transferred back to

714
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: a county for three months, come off his meds, be

715
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: placed in a psych cell. And you know, last time

716
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: that happened with one of Leo's cases, like the sheriff's

717
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: deputies like beat the hell out of him, and like,

718
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to have that on my conscience, Like, oh,

719
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: all my work investigating and now Jeremy gets put in

720
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: a really bad situation that he needs to harm. So

721
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: I have conflicted feelings about it, but you know, the

722
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: right thing to do is he needs to be held

723
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: accountable for the murders that he's committed, that he's admitted

724
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: to committed to committing, and the people who have been

725
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: you know, tossed under the bus, like dan Odie and

726
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: Leo need to be fully exonerated. And so you know,

727
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 2: that's sort of the position I'm in, but I don't

728
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 2: I never felt like I was giving him a platform

729
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: to speak about because he didn't really have any issues.

730
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: He was just really just talking to me. And I

731
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: don't think he's really trying to get anything out of

732
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: anybody except he wants to meet his family. He wants

733
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: family in his life.

734
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 1: Well, for me, I feel like the importance of this

735
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: season again just shows that. I think it kind of

736
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: shows why it's important to understand Jeremy because then we

737
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: know how we got here, right, We know in some

738
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: cases how this quote monster is made and by understanding

739
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: that we can prevent that perhaps.

740
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's really important, you know, Like

741
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: there was something that the judge said of Jeremy when

742
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: he first got arrested for murder at age fifteen. He

743
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: dealt with Jeremy like a lot in the juvenile system,

744
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: and he just said, I don't think anybody's surprised to

745
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: see Jeremy Scott here in this court charge with murder,

746
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: Like there was nothing anybody could do about that, Like

747
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: he'd been put in juvenile detention facilities.

748
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: Anyone have intervened, Like like, was there a point in

749
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: his life someone could have intervened and we wouldn't be here.

750
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: I think it would have been asking a lot, Like

751
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 2: he literally was homeless at nine. He was out on

752
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: the streets committing crimes at age nine. His first arrest

753
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: was at ten, I think, you know. And also he

754
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: had he had like a traumatic head injury which also

755
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: affected him. So he's got like a low IQ like

756
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: in the seventies, he's got brain damage. You know, he

757
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 2: was abusing drugs and alcohol like before he was a teenager,

758
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 2: and his family really wasn't there for him. So I

759
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: don't know who else would have been there at the

760
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 2: point him, you know, he didn't really do very well

761
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: in school, was in and out of school. I think

762
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: there could have been things like if somebody in a

763
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: juvenile detention center had come across him and maybe taken

764
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: some interest, or maybe a foster family. But it just

765
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: seemed like this inevitable path that he was leading towards

766
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 2: it as he was getting more and more violent, more

767
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: and more desperate on the streets. But yes, could something

768
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: have been done. Yes, the social programs, you know, those

769
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: are things I don't really feel qualified to talk about

770
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: those that part of the system, but I recognize it's

771
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: something that you got to give kids some kind of chance,

772
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: even people like Jeremy, because the damage that they can do.

773
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: Just go and ask the dozens and dozens of victims

774
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: of his violence. Do they think something could have been

775
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: done or should have been done? Though the first thing

776
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: they'll say is yes, that would have been great if

777
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: we could have prevented this, Whether because Justin had grown

778
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: up constantly hearing you know, you're not your father, you're

779
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: not your father. You know, when he when he had

780
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: a temper tantrum or something like that, he worried about

781
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: to am, I carrying the DNA of a map of

782
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: a person who's killed a bunch of people, and so

783
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: he was afraid of that. And you know, at the end,

784
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Jamie sort of acknowledged. She said, you know, Jeremy had

785
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: a charming side, he had a sweet side. He had compassion,

786
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: which you know, if you listen to the podcast, you

787
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: can feel it. He does have it, you can see it.

788
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 2: He's not the monster that you know. He's done evil things,

789
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: but he's not the monster you imagine when you think

790
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: of it.

791
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: Leo even said that too, he wanted a villain, he

792
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: wanted someone he could just like seethe and hate and

793
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: that's not him.

794
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: Right, And the first time he saw Jeremy, he's like,

795
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: it's not that guy. You know, he felt sorry for him,

796
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people do feel sorry

797
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: for him. But Jamie, you know, finally acknowledged that. You know,

798
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 2: he is his father, but he's the good side of Jeremy.

799
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: And you know, having spent a lot of time on

800
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: the phone and talking to Jeremy, I did see that

801
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: good side. There was no doubt, Like, I'm sure there

802
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 2: are people who don't have a good side, but he's

803
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: not one of them. He's remorseful all the all the

804
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: remorse that the state expects Leo to show. Well, Leo's

805
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: got a claim of innocence, He's never shown the remorse.

806
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: Jeremy's showing that remorse all the time. He constantly talks

807
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 2: about the victims and the people he's hurt, and he

808
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 2: gets emotional about it. And and I think, you know,

809
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: Jamie's saying that made Justin sort of acknowledge it and

810
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 2: accept it. And you know, he said, I am my father.

811
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: I look exactly like my father, have the same eyes,

812
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: we have a very similar voice. I was listening to

813
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 2: the tape of Jeremy at this like as a teenager

814
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: confessing the police, and you know, he sounds exactly like Justin.

815
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: It was really weird. And to hear like Jamie talk

816
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 2: about that saying, you know, as he grew up, seeing

817
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: him like wondering, I'm like, Gods, I get chills because

818
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: it looked like I was looking at Jeremy and you

819
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: can imagine somebody like that who's been like, you know,

820
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: thrown into a police car, you know, accused of murder

821
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: and and you know, beaten by Jeremy and all these

822
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 2: things like it would traumatic, but for her to acknowledge,

823
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 2: you know, that Justin carried the good side of Jeremy,

824
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: and I think that's, you know, hopefully, that's Jeremy's greatest

825
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: legacy is that his son went on to be this

826
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: beautiful person. And I really mean this sincerely. I call

827
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: him a kid. Everybody calls him a kid. He's thirty five,

828
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: but he feels like a kid a lot of times

829
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: when you're talking to him, and you know, he just

830
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: says some really profound things about forgiveness and acceptance that

831
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: you know, he's There's a lot of people in this

832
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: story that can make me cry, but he's one of

833
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: them automatically just to be he shows the same kind

834
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: of grace that I think Leo shows in a lot

835
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: of this story. And I'm just really honored to know

836
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 2: him because when I first met him, I thought, who's

837
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: this crazy kid? I'm now it's Jeremy Scott's son who's

838
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 2: going to reach out to me, And he was nothing

839
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 2: like I expected. And I really think so highly of him,

840
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: and I love talking to him and catching up with him,

841
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: and he's a hugger and it's just like such a

842
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 2: sweet thing to see him around.

843
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: He looks like Jeremy. I was I was not expecting

844
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: him to look like Jeremy.

845
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really looks a lot like him.

846
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: I have to see a picture, Gilbert King. You are

847
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: doing the lord's work, so thank you.

848
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: Well, thanks magg It's always pleasure to talking