WEBVTT - John Neffinger 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.759 Today's quote is for Monica Hess from The Washington Post, 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:06.600 writing in November of twenty nineteen. It's about the general 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:11.080 reaction to Marie Ivanovitch testifying during the the Old impeachment trial. 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.360 This quote is part of the inspiration for the final 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.880 segment of this podcast, when I asked my guests to 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.480 bring in a voice they admire. Here's the quote. We're 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.759 in the early stages of building a listening library of 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:28.320 powerful female voices. We still can't ask. As Senator Klobascher 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.120 pointed out in a presidential debate quote, who is your 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.200 favorite woman? President? End quote. During the height of Hillary 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.320 Clinton's sixteen campaign, she was so besieged with charges of 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:43.080 shrillness that the Atlantic magazine interviewed experts to figure out 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.479 what made her voice so allegedly irritating. They found that 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.479 her so called shrill voice was actually quote average in 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.760 pitch and loudness for her age and gender end quote. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.360 The issue wasn't how she sounded, It was how she 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:03.000 sounded to us, a listening public without the oral reference 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:16.679 library to assess female authority, trustworthiness, and power. Our voice 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.760 is a reflection of our life experience, where we've been 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.960 and who we've listened to, but we can also own 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.399 it and even change it if we want. This is 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.600 the podcast that's all about the voice, but it's also 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.200 all about power, Who has it, how we get it, 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.560 and how we sound when we have it. I'm Samarve. 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.679 I'm a dialect coach for actors in Hollywood on projects 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.000 like the upcoming Wonder Woman's sequel, and I'm also a 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:46.720 speech coach for entrepreneurs, politicians, creatives and women everywhere who 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.240 need to use their voice to get what they want. 0:01:49.800 --> 0:02:00.880 Welcome to permission to speak. Let's do this. Today's guest 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:07.360 is John Neffinger. He's a man. He talks about trigger warning, um, 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:12.440 the the guy who's our president, and nonetheless I wanted 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.400 to have him on because he's a world class communication 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.280 coach whose book Compelling People is taught at top business 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.079 schools around the country because it synthesizes a massive amount 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.000 of the most recent studies on how we're perceived and 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.040 makes it super clear. We can argue the fairness and 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.480 whether we have to follow the rules just because they're 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.400 the rules, and I do, but we can't argue with 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.359 the data. It's depressing and it's enlightening. He was also 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.040 the calms director for the Democratic National Committee and coach 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.320 Hillary Clinton leading up to the election, which we talk 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.040 about here, as well as his thoughts on Elizabeth Warren 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.359 suspending her campaign. We had a lovely chat geeking out 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.600 about coaching people, since we both do so, and it's 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.560 full of practical advice that I hope is useful. This 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:12.639 is John, So your book Compelling People or Compelling People. Yeah, 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:19.520 I know there's a double um focuses largely on two 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.880 different metrics, strength and form. Yes, it is metrics. It 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:29.280 is one framework. It is there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.640 it's a really nifty framework and it's one that comes 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.880 in handy in a lot of the kinds of conversations 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.360 that you have where you're thinking, you're you're trying to 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.280 make sense of all of this soft and smushy whether 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.680 it's vocal tone or posture, body language, or the stuff 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.080 that makes us react to each other the way that 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.480 we do. But it's very hard to see which parts 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.760 are doing what thinks right. And so this is a 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:57.400 framework that helps organized redibly simplifying. It's really simplifying. We're 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.560 talking about strength, we're talking about as you say in 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.720 the book, the root of respect, and we're talking about warmth, 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.440 we're talking about the root of affection. Correct, how much 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:11.400 someone likes And you can map these on top of 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.680 everything from you know, the sort of energy somebody walks 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.360 into a room with, and their look and their gender 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.120 and their race and their age and their height. But 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.400 you can also even map it on like sounds that 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.160 we make that's on soft versus hard, And you can 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.240 map it on how we apologize. If you say you 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.240 realize you hurt someone, that's warmth. If you say you 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.920 commit to not doing it again, that strength, and it's 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.320 not a good apology if it doesn't have both. Actually, 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.960 you know, right, you can and then obviously also on leadership, 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:52.240 and that's where correct correct, Yes, So where do you 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.960 want to start? Well, my first question is, just to 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.279 back up for a second, is how do you describe 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.520 what you do because obviously can be so wildly learned. 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:06.360 I don't know, you got have to. I just do 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.320 lots of different stuff I do. I know, right, I 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.360 am very very fortunate because I do a lot of 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.760 things for a lot of folks. Over the course of 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.440 the year, interesting things come up, and mostly it adds 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.440 up to enough money to pay my rent at the 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.039 at the or my mortgage at this point at the 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:28.400 end of the year. So so I you said how 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:29.920 you said that with a lot of strength, and then 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:34.000 you warmed it up at the end. There it's the thing. 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.280 It's the thing. You gotta do the thing right. You 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.560 got to watch the talk. So so look on paper, 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.880 you are a speaking coach. That's right on paper. I 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.719 describe myself much the same way you do write um 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.440 that I help politicians and others, be the organizational leaders 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:53.080 or other folks in the media, or advocates or school kids. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.720 I work like I'll work with anybody to express themselves effectively, 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.239 and so I like to work with people who agree 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.760 with who I want people to hear um. But other 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.400 than that, it's people from all walks of life. And 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.400 then there's also a whole strategy side. There's a whole 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.560 strategy side. And I do a lot of other comps, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:11.880 Like I've been the COMPS director for the Democratic National 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.159 Committee Party at some point. So there's a bunch of 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:20.560 other associated communication. How quote unquote we present ourselves and 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.440 what we're presenting ourselves with. We don't just tell people 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.640 to fill your voice to the edge of the room. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:28.880 There are more things than that. Yes, there is a 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:30.520 much I don't know if you've talked about this before 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.360 in this but there is a much misquoted study from 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.240 the early seventies Morabian. Do you know about Merabian? He's 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.000 like a local boy, right, he was at u C. 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.039 L A. And you don't know everybody in l A 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.760 is not from l A. Okay, that's fair. He was 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.200 transplants fair enough, fair enough like DC. But he was 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.600 doing these studies where he was trying to figure out 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.000 how do you decode the emotion or what's the most 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.520 important channel through which we interpret the emotion of somebody 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.680 who's talking to us. And so we got three We 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.680 got their words, and we've got what we're seeing, and 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.239 we've got what we're hearing. Obviously you're hearing their words, 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.520 but the music in the time of the tone in 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:15.720 the voice. And so the punchline is that the way 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.120 it's mostly told is the words are only seven percent 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:23.800 of the communication and some vast majority like more body language, 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:28.200 and then between and is tone of voice. And that 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.800 leaves less than ten for us to very depressingly, uh 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.320 reflect the content of what we're trying to very nice, 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.120 he said, But what he was actually asking is where 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.200 does the emotion come through? And what he was doing 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.520 to come up with these suspiciously precise numbers was to 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.360 hit them against one another. So we've all been in 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.400 a room where somebody stands up at the front of 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.800 the room to talk to us and says, I'm happy 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:56.040 to be here today because and you're like, really are 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:01.239 you now? Clearly not? Or if the bodyline, which is yeah, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.640 like he wants to our confidence that we're saying confidence 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:09.200 sounding things that I don't belong here, then we we 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.440 believe our eyes and our ears over the right, over 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.240 the content, over the words themselves. So it's a very 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.480 clever way to figure out what matters in terms of 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:19.520 the emotion just by pitting the channels against you another. 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.800 But what it gets reduced to is seven percent of 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.680 your communication. Only seven percent of your communication is what 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.160 you say, so what right? So like read from the 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.280 dictionary but just have really gleaming white teeth and stand 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.960 up straight and no no. But the emotional content is 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:41.160 why anybody is going to take time out of their 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.360 schedule to go and visit with somebody and be in 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.320 the same room as opposed to sending an email. Like 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.360 we have lots of ways to send words around these days, 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.760 but we take that time not just because of you know, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.439 conversation back and forth. We can do that electronically too, 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.120 but we want to be in the same space because 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.160 there is an emotional thing that happens when two all 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.839 are together and seeing each other and being in each 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.560 other's presence, and that's an important thing. That's what's what means, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.679 what gives meaningful and important matter. And so just for listeners, 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.320 the sort of button of this misunderstanding of these three 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.959 different statistics is that it's not that what we're saying 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.719 doesn't matter. It's that if our body language and our 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.880 tone of voice were not in alignment with what we're saying, 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.920 we will not believe you. Yes, I use lots of 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.560 political examples because that's where I hail from. And you know, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.760 Sarah Palin strode on the national stage and everyone went wow, 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.520 who she And then she said down for an interview 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.760 and couldn't string together enough thoughts and yeah, and it 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.600 blew up. So you gotta you gotta know your content. 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.000 But just knowing your content isn't enough to make it 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.000 matter to anybody necessarily well, and also for those of 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:53.839 us thinking about how to apply this in our lives 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:58.080 to really trust that how we think about walking onto 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.840 that stage and trusting ourselves and believe thing ourselves and 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.199 the strength side of it maybe is actually going to 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.040 have an impact. You know, we can't actually just know 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.680 our material. We have to also trust that our body 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.679 is going to reveal whether or not we feel like 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.360 we deserve to be up there. That's right. So what 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:15.960 is that mental work that we can do ahead of time? 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:17.679 Which actually leads me to my real question, which is, 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.560 how do you work with people? What? What is that? 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:26.160 What is an hour long experience with me? Yeah, I mean, obviously, 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.199 let's say a new client, Let's say maybe somebody running 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.760 for office. Let's say maybe a woman. I am working 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:36.960 with a lot of just overachieving people who have a 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.760 lot of smart thoughts because that's their job, and they've 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.200 trained and you know, spent god knows how many years 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.200 in school, and then I had all this experience, and 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.720 so there's a lot of content rattling around in their 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.800 heads upstairs. But often times the reason I get called 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.680 in is because it's not doesn't seem to be coming 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.920 out right, or doesn't seem to be having the intended 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.000 effects and the desired effective, which we might say, literally 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.920 everybody needs that. Everybody, all these perspective things were rattling 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.640 around in our heads. Definitely, definitely, So when I get 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.079 called in for essentially, you know, kind of remedial stuff, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.520 but it's not always remedial. Sometimes it's just like, look, 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.480 we need to step this up, and we need to 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.320 compete on a way bigger stage, and we've been used 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.720 to and so let's let's talk about what's going on here. Um, 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.840 Oftentimes I'm dealing with people who are very comfortable in 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.840 an analytical space where they're thinking about stuff and there's 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.600 logic and stuff makes sense, and they're much less comfortable 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:38.559 in a sort of touchy feely intuitive space. And part 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.320 of what's tricky about this for them is they feel 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.120 like they're being thrust into a space where the rules 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.000 of the game are not clear to them and they 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.800 have no way to take control back. And when the 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.040 game do you mean, like literally, when we're communicating with 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.760 people to try to get them to do something for us, right, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:04.120 to have people respond positively to them and their message, right, 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.920 And so part of the reasons to take the time 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.120 to write a book about this and to you know, 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.600 work with all these academics and think about this theory 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.360 and structure. Is that part of what I will often 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.199 do at the beginning of my session is to introduce 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:24.960 that as a way for people to now have a 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.320 way to think about what's working and what's not, what 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.360 they're doing, and what levers they could you know, pull 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:34.200 to change the outcome, because before it was just like, 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.360 you know, you need better energy or more confidence or 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.080 all things which are totally true and worth saying and 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:46.000 worth identifying, but not super actionable for somebody who who 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.920 is not comfortable operating in that space. I mean, you 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:50.679 spend a lot more time on set than I have, 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.480 and maybe on set that makes all this like oh yes, 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.280 of course more energy, right, But my people, a lot 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.439 of my people that's like, you know, you might as well, 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.400 you know, grow another head perfect. I mean two things. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.679 One is, yes, when you're working with people who are 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.599 professional performers and who have spent their lives trying to 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.920 figure out sort of the mind body connections that they 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:12.719 actually know how to sort of work the instrument that 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.559 is themselves that's instantly easier than anybody I've worked with 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.240 who's from the business or political sectors, because there is 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.280 a disconnect. I mean, it just happens societally, like we 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.360 get put in boxes and we get our heads cut 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.880 off from our bodies, and you know, we forget how 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.320 to like access joy and I'm really like, what was that? Seven? 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:35.679 What was that? What's in the box? Um? And the 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.079 other part of it is there's such an immediacy when 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.760 you're about to go on camera and your scene partners 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.439 right there and you're acting opposite them or on stage 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.280 or something like that. But I imagine that sort of 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.360 the further way the audience is, whether it's through a 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.840 lens or you're on a big stage and the lights 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.240 are blinding you. Part of this is like, how do 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.480 we bring the version of ourselves that we're that we like, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.199 that we're used to when we're talking one on one 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.880 with somebody and scale that up to these really like 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:05.559 artificial feeling exactly exactly exactly. And for folks who are 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:10.920 communicating not in character most of the time, oh yeah, 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.720 that most of the time, what we're going for is 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.040 some version of how they are with their friends or 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.600 wherever it is. That they're relaxed and comfortable expressing themselves. 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.680 Not always some people that's not ideal and we need 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.280 to about that. But a place where they are communicating 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.040 authentically how they feel on the inside. That is what 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.400 makes us first of all, that's what makes us trust people. 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:37.560 Donald Trump communicates authentically the stuff he's either fooled himself 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.760 about or the stuff he's trying to will into being, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.080 but he's definitely speaking from a place that he has 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.200 some honest feeling around. It's the facts are all wrong, 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:51.240 but he's saying what he feels in a way that 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.960 for poor Hillary Clinton, right, who knew if she said 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.120 one thing that was a little bit tinily factually questionable, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.240 she would get triple checked and wrung up for it 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.400 by the media. So she when she's speaking, was constantly 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.360 editing and monitoring what she was saying in a way 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.600 that you could see the gears grinding as she spoken, 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.960 so it looked calculated, even when it was her absolute 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.800 best effort to be honest when it comes to the facts. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.000 So it's the speaking with feeling in politics. There's been 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.240 an interesting move and I think this is true in 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.280 the business world too. I don't know if it's everywhere. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.520 But basically we talked about going from oration to conversation. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.920 So oration is this sort of formal thing which, if 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.600 you think about it, just from a technological standpoint, right, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.360 go back a few hundreds of years when they used 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.560 to teach rhetoric in schools like that was the main 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.760 topic of conversation. Is how you do this in locos 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.080 and path ups and all this stuff. And if you 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.240 think about it, you've got no mike. We don't have 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.280 one of these things here. And so you are if 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.880 you're standing in front of a crowd, you have to 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.040 project to the back of the room kind of thing 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:57.400 for people to hear you. And if you want to 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.440 be covered in the media, you have to write this 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.120 speech down so you can give it to the newspaperman, 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.680 which means that if you're gonna tell them that you 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.440 gave the speech, then you have to give the speech. 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.080 You have to write the speech down first and then 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.880 stick to what's on the page. Right. And the amount 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.040 of ways that this has changed. Right now, every one 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.360 of us has a like enormous TV the size of 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:23.000 a like seven year old in your living room, right, 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:24.960 and you and it's h D and you can see 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.560 every poor well no, there's people thankfully for that, but 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.840 but you can see every twitch of every facial muscle, 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.240 and we want to because that's how we know that 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.920 you're getting a straight dope from that person. Right, Very 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.840 different totally. It's that real authentic feeling. And if even 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.479 feels like they're reciting lines, this is a thing that's 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.560 you can bridge this, and you know more about how 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.360 to bridge this than most people do. But forget the 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.400 act of reading, right. We all know we can see 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.240 somebody looking at the page and they're looking down and 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.120 then they're looking up a US, Okay, fine, their reading. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:04.040 The act of citing something that someone has memorized. Unless 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.840 you're a pro at this, that is a different mental 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.880 activity than just what you and I are doing now talking, right, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.000 And what that means is it has this different set 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.240 of nonverbal behaviors around it. So when you and I 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.200 are talking, we can see each other, we know that 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.200 we're just speaking what we're thinking and feeling in the moment. 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.480 That's the real deal. If I'm reciting something, all my 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.879 non verbals are going to be different. My vocal tone 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.119 will probably be different, my my visual will definitely be 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.720 different unless I'm really really good at this, right, But 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:42.199 so so the other major factor when you're reciting is 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.159 that you can't pivot. You're not listening. Yes, exactly exactly, 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.280 it's not going to fit My answers aren't going to 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.120 fit what you're saying at all, right, yeah, and so 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:55.160 if you're doing that, people know. And then in my world, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.840 in the political world, the question is immediately okay that 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.000 it's not you. Yeah, you agreed to say it, but 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.040 I have no idea what team of you know, consultants 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.919 and polsters and gods who else wrote that crap for you? 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.359 And so I get that you've signed off on it, 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.840 but I still don't know who you are, except that 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.640 you're someone who signs off on whatever somebody else tells 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.520 me to say. That's not where we're going. You gotta 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.399 bring it. You gotta be real for people to be like, 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.280 that's who I want in charge. So it feels like 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.960 a authentic equals good. But be what if your authentic 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:38.960 self isn't doesn't huge to what not even but doesn't 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.280 he to what society says is what we're used to 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:45.359 seeing a powerful person looking and sounding like and you know, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.359 working with a type a straight white man where the 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.440 problem is like, let's bring out some warmth. Great, yeah, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:54.040 we know about that. I mean, you know this sort 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:55.840 of idea of where he used to being analytical but 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.880 of we got to tell some stories in here because 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.600 I hear stories or what what tick right? I mean? 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.080 But inevitably there is some element of that. But I mean, 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.320 there's this great line from Rebecca Trayster's book Good and 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.640 Mad where she's talking about your work and she says 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.280 that for men, a little bit of warmth goes a 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.480 long way, and for women a little bit of strength 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.720 goes way too far. Yes, what do you do when 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:20.040 somebody's authentic self quote unquote isn't as palatable to like 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.840 the old Guard of listeners? Yeah, So there are different 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.919 ways to think about this. So if I want to 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:30.040 explain this within the strength and warmth framework, the old 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.320 Guard has the power, doesn't want to give it up 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.400 any more than anybody else with power does, and they're 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.200 looking for some things. There's some stuff that they're looking 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:45.400 for that registers to them frosty as they are as 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.879 warmth from that audience's point of view, something that's familiar, 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:55.240 something that validates how they are in the world, right, 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.320 and so how do you appeal to those people? Some 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.320 of it is ask kissing. We all know that, right. 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.120 It feels like what we're also talking about is short 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.199 term versus long term, because in the short term, for 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.240 somebody who say hires you, we're saying, how does that 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.800 person who hires you succeed in the narrowly defined success 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:16.760 that they're going for in the next pitch or the 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.760 next cycle or the next whatever. And in that case, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.600 success means playing by these rules and dialing up the 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.240 thing that they're missing. And then there's the much longer 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.720 term idea of where we're going with all this and 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:35.040 what responsibility or opportunity we each individually have in saying 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.479 just because this is how it's been done. Absolutely, if 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.280 you look at change or persuasion as something that we're 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:48.000 trying to do in this communication space, right you almost always, yes, 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.760 you need somebody's attention, and that's a preliminary thing, and 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.080 you may need to break some china to get there, 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.240 But for the most part, you're meeting your audience where 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.399 they are at now. First. Then once you've established to 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.600 your audience that you are worth listening to, now you 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.120 can introduce new thoughts. Now you can introduce new ways 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.680 of thinking and new approaches that might include having their 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.000 ears more open to a different kind of approach the 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.800 next time within the system. To you gotta win the 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:18.320 game before you can change. All right, we're gonna take 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:28.200 a break if you right back. Hi, We're back with John. 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.080 We were talking on the break about how important it 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:33.480 is to remember that we have a body in all 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.720 this work. And John, you mentioned that you do warm 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:40.040 ups with people sometimes if the environment seems to allow 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.840 for it, kind of whenever it can be gotten away with, 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.040 which is its own issue. But yeah, well when can 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:46.879 it not be gotten away with? Because I'm interested in 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.879 corporate culture and culture, what sort of work culture? Uh, 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:56.600 you know how how it loosens over time? Well, it 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.800 can be a little bit abrupt, and these things like 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:02.280 a lot goes into that judgment, a lot like are 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.720 you right after lunch and everybody's half comatose? Or first 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.800 thing the morning? Is actually sometimes these are actually good 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.879 excuses to do this. The move that I'm talking about 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.680 is getting everybody up out of their seats, moving around 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.760 for just a minute. And there's there's a whole scientific 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:21.720 piece about why that's a good thing, and it's an 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.600 opportunity to explain that that why that matters. You have 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.280