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Speaker 1: Today's episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class is

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Speaker 1: history for your free Tracker Bravo with any order. Again,

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Speaker 1: that's the Tracker dot Com promo code history. Are you

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Speaker 1: looking for brand new episodes of a short How Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works podcast that explains the everyday world around us, then

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Speaker 1: check out brain Stuff with me Christian Saker. New episodes

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Speaker 1: hit every Monday and Wednesday on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify,

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Speaker 1: or anywhere else you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class from How Stuff Works dot Com. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm

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Speaker 1: tra Phoebe Wilson. Tracy. I got to do a cool thing.

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Speaker 1: I know you did. I know. I'm so lucky. So

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Speaker 1: recently I was lucky enough to visit NASA's Goddard Space

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Speaker 1: Flight Center to see the completed mirror assembly on the

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Speaker 1: James Webb Space Telescope and how stuff works has been

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Speaker 1: covering the telescope for a while. We were there last

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Speaker 1: year when we first visited Goddard, and at that point

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Speaker 1: they were just starting to install the mirrors, like the

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Speaker 1: first mirror was hanging over and ready to be installed.

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Speaker 1: And as part of the press conference proceedings at this

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Speaker 1: recent visit, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden mentioned that most people

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Speaker 1: don't really know much about James Webb, who is the

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Speaker 1: telescope's namesake. They tend to assume that he was a

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Speaker 1: scientist or an engineer, but that is not the case

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Speaker 1: at all. And in fact, when you said, when you

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Speaker 1: relayed that to me, my response was sort of he

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Speaker 1: wasn't no. Uh. And So because I am a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a space nerd uh, and because it's timely,

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Speaker 1: I thought it might be a good time to talk

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Speaker 1: about James Webb and his really important role in NASA's

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Speaker 1: development as well as achievements for the human race and

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Speaker 1: as a champion for science. But we're also going to

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Speaker 1: hop back to the pre NASA days to really see

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Speaker 1: sort of how the agency formed, So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a parallel story of both James Webb and how NASA developed.

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Speaker 1: James Edwin Webb was born in Tallyho, North Carolina, on

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Speaker 1: October seventh, nineteen o six. For geographical context, Tallyho was

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Speaker 1: a township in Granville County, about thirty three miles north

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Speaker 1: of Raleigh Durham International Airport. His parents were John Frederick

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Speaker 1: and Sarah Gorham Webb, and John was a career educator.

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Speaker 1: He was a school superintendent in Granville County for twenty

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Speaker 1: six years, and James attended the University of North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: He received his degree in education in and After school,

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Speaker 1: he joined the U. S. Marine Corps, and Webb was

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Speaker 1: an active duty pilot from eighteen thirty to nineteen thirty two.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty two, he moved to Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: Congressman Edward W. Pooh of North Carolina and chair of

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Speaker 1: the House Rules Committee, hired Webb to be his secretary,

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Speaker 1: which is a job he held for two years. After

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Speaker 1: his time there, he became assistant to O. Max Gardner

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty four. Gardner was an attorney and the

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Speaker 1: former governor of North Carolina, and in that time Webb

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Speaker 1: worked for him just from four to nineteen thirty six.

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Speaker 1: He was also attending Washington University to study law himself.

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Speaker 1: He passed the bar in nineteen thirty six. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: already you probably get the idea that he's not not

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Speaker 1: the scientist engineer you thought. In fact, he was interested

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Speaker 1: in education and law, became a lawyer, and after he

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Speaker 1: finished law school, Webb moved on to Brooklyn, New York,

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Speaker 1: and a position at Sperry Gyroscopics Company, working initially as

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Speaker 1: their personnel director. Sperry manufactured electronics and equipment, including military

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Speaker 1: aircraft components, and worked with inventor to support their projects

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Speaker 1: and develop new technologies. And while working for Sperry, James

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Speaker 1: Webb got married. He married Patsy Aiken Douglas in ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: and that couple eventually had two children, Sarah Gorman Gorham,

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Speaker 1: who was born on February seven, nineteen and their son,

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Speaker 1: James Edwin Jr. Who was born on March five of

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven. Webb moved up the ranks at Sperry,

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Speaker 1: was promoted to secretary treasurer and then vice president, which

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Speaker 1: is a role he served in until nineteen forty four.

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Speaker 1: At that point he left his corporate positions, who once

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Speaker 1: again joined the Marines and serve in World War Two,

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Speaker 1: and when the war ended, Webb went back to Washington,

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Speaker 1: d c. And back to working for O. Max Gardner.

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Speaker 1: And at that point, Gardner was the Under Secretary of

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Speaker 1: the Treasury and Webb served as his executive assistant, but

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Speaker 1: Webb soon moved on to another position. He was selected

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Speaker 1: to be Director of the Bureau of the Budget in

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Speaker 1: the Executive Office of the President under Harry S. Truman,

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Speaker 1: and he served in that role until nineteen forty nine,

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Speaker 1: when President Truman asked Webb to be Under Secretary of

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Speaker 1: State U S. Department of State. When Truman's presidency ended

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three, Webb moved away from Washington all

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Speaker 1: the way to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, where he worked as

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Speaker 1: a director at Kara McGee Oil Corporation. After about eight

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Speaker 1: years back in corporate work, he once again found himself

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Speaker 1: drawn into a government position. Yes so, while he was

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Speaker 1: actually at an appreciation luncheon for Senator Robert S. Kerr

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma City, he was called away from the table

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Speaker 1: to take an important phone call and the person on

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Speaker 1: the line was Dr Jerome Weisner, who was chairman of

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Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy's Science Advisory Committee, and he was calling

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Speaker 1: on behalf of the President to offer James Webb the

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Speaker 1: position of administrator of NASA. What a way to have

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Speaker 1: your dinner interrupted. I was having lunch, there were speakers.

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Speaker 1: You want to do? What I feel like? This happened

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Speaker 1: on an episode of Grey's Anatomy. So Webb said he

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Speaker 1: would consider the offer and agreed to meet with Vice

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Speaker 1: Resident Lyndon Johnson about it. He flew to Washington that night,

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Speaker 1: and initially he really didn't want the job. He felt

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Speaker 1: like he'd have his hands just tied constantly and that

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Speaker 1: he would be forced to try to administer plans that

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Speaker 1: he did not have any part of setting. When he

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Speaker 1: got to Johnson's office, he first spoke with Dr Hugh

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Speaker 1: Dryden and said, Hugh, I don't believe this job is

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Speaker 1: for me. What do you think? And he said, I

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Speaker 1: agree with you. I don't believe it is either. And

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk a little bit more about Hugh

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Speaker 1: Dryden in a bit, but just know this is a

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Speaker 1: person who knew what this job entailed. Uh and Webb

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Speaker 1: then tried to get another friend in politics to tell

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Speaker 1: Vice President Johnson that he should not take this job,

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Speaker 1: but that didn't go over well. Uh So Webb sort

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Speaker 1: of then spent a lot of time trying to get

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Speaker 1: people to help him not be offered this job anymore.

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Speaker 1: He reached out to some of his Washington contacts in

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Speaker 1: an effort to help get out of it, and he

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Speaker 1: was finally sent to h lawyer and political advisor Clark Clifford,

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Speaker 1: as he was the man that people would say, like,

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Speaker 1: if any he can get you out of this and

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Speaker 1: fix the situation, it's him. In an interview, Webb described

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Speaker 1: this exchange with Clifford. Called up Clifford and said, Clifford,

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Speaker 1: you've got to help me get out of this. And

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Speaker 1: he said, ha ha, I'm the one that recommended you.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to help you get out of it.

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Speaker 1: And in the end, after a lot of back and

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Speaker 1: forth and some cajoling, President Kennedy told James Webb that

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Speaker 1: he wanted him and in Webb's words, quote, I've never

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Speaker 1: said no to any president who has asked me to

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Speaker 1: do things. And on February fourteenth of nineteen sixty one,

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Speaker 1: James Webb became the administrator of NASA via appointment by

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Speaker 1: President John F. Kennedy. Before we continue with Webb's work

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Speaker 1: at NASA, we're going to back up just a little

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Speaker 1: bit and talk about how NASA came to be. We're

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Speaker 1: going to go all the way back to nineteen fifteen,

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Speaker 1: which may surprise you and how early that origin story starts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but before we take that little time travel, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: pause for a word from one of our fantastic sponsors.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit early in the show to do so,

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Speaker 1: but this will mean that we can keep NASA's origins

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Speaker 1: ory all in one segment. So we're gonna have a

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Speaker 1: enter stuff. Nine fifteen was the year that the National

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Speaker 1: Advisory Committee for aeronaut ex formed in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and at that point, manned air flight was just a

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Speaker 1: little more than a decade into development, and while Americans

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Speaker 1: wilbur In orble Wright had gained international acclaim for their

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Speaker 1: work in flight, the United States had not held the

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Speaker 1: line at the bleeding edge of this technology. European efforts

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Speaker 1: were very quickly surpassing American airplane work. So on March

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Speaker 1: third of nineteen fifteen, n a c A was founded

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Speaker 1: by Congress, and this was an independent agency of the government,

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Speaker 1: reporting directly to the President. And at the time, the

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Speaker 1: establishment of this branch of government got almost no attention.

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Speaker 1: It had actually been attached to the nineteen fifteen Naval

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Speaker 1: Appropriation Bill, and this particular part of it had not

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Speaker 1: been spotlighted, so most people didn't even know what happened

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Speaker 1: in that initial inception. Brigadier General George Scribbin headed up

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Speaker 1: the committee with twelve committee members total. Members were not

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Speaker 1: paid for their work and they met every several months.

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Speaker 1: There was, however, one paid employee at n a c A,

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Speaker 1: a man named John F. Victory's. His real name, Victory

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Speaker 1: was a stenographer who served as the committee's clerk, writing

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Speaker 1: letters managing responses as they reached out to university's aeronautics clubs,

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Speaker 1: government contacts, and industrialists. Yeah, they realized pretty quickly that

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Speaker 1: if they wanted to kind of have all of these

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Speaker 1: tendrils out to try to talk to people and get

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Speaker 1: information and row this idea, they couldn't just do that

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Speaker 1: with these dudes that came in once every few months

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Speaker 1: on a volunteer basis. They really needed somebody, and in

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Speaker 1: its early years, the n a c A developed wind

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Speaker 1: tunnels to run flight tests on aircraft, and eventually the

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Speaker 1: agency began recruiting engineers and scientists to continue to advance

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Speaker 1: aviation technology. In n a c AS annual report included

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Speaker 1: a call for a national Aviation policy, something that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people felt was absolutely necessary if the United

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Speaker 1: States was going to keep pace with the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world. One section of it reads, aviation is still

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Speaker 1: in its infancy. Its possibilities while unknown, appeal to the imagination.

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Speaker 1: The forced development during war and some of the experimental

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Speaker 1: developments since have not been based upon scientific research and

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Speaker 1: sound scientific principles that make for substantial progress. Technical training

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Speaker 1: the actual training of a large body of men. Technical

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Speaker 1: training is necessary, including education Haitian in the UH in

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Speaker 1: advanced aeronautical engineering, so is the actual training of a

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Speaker 1: and operation of aircraft. Broadly speaking, scientific research, technical training,

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Speaker 1: a national policy. And by the nineteen thirties, n a

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Speaker 1: the first supersonic flight was made possible in ninety seven.

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Speaker 1: This paved the way for additional experimental work in aircraft technology.

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Speaker 1: In the night teen fifties, missile technology was also explored

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Speaker 1: of rising Cold War tensions, and eventually this stretched into

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Speaker 1: By nineteen fifty seven, n A c A employed eight

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Speaker 1: and the chair of the main committee, by the way,

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Speaker 1: was previous subject previous podcast subject James Doolittle, and a

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Speaker 1: physicist who we mentioned earlier, Dr Hugh L. Dryden, was

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Speaker 1: It circled the Earth for about three months before dropping

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Speaker 1: January fourth, ninety eight. And while Sputnik one's life was

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Speaker 1: to immediately fund the Explorer satellite project. Another project, Vanguard,

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Speaker 1: was already in the works. Explorer launched less than four

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Speaker 1: weeks after Sputnik one's demise on January thirty first, nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty eight. Vanguard, the first solar powered satellite, launched on

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Speaker 1: March seventeenth of that year. Vanguard, by the way, is

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Speaker 1: still in orbit. It's the oldest man man made objects

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Speaker 1: still circling the Earth, although we haven't been able to

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Speaker 1: still up there. Um. But The more important reaction to

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Speaker 1: through the congressional passing of the National Aeronautics and Space Act.

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Speaker 1: Dr Dryden, working with Doolittle and after consulting the younger

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Speaker 1: issued in January nine fifty eight titled quote National Research

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Speaker 1: Program for Space Technology. In this report, dried An outlined

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Speaker 1: they were going to become. Um. The reason that they

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Speaker 1: talked to younger members of management was that they felt

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Speaker 1: driving force for whatever this new possibility could be. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: as a provision of this Space Act, and after this

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Speaker 1: report had gone out, an A c A was turned

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Speaker 1: over to NASA on October one of ninety eight, and

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Speaker 1: so were the Army's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which we still

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Speaker 1: know as JPL and Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville, Alabama, which

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Speaker 1: is now known as Marshall Space Flight Center, and much

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Speaker 1: of n a c S leadership went on to helm

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Speaker 1: this new space agency. NASA's first administrator was Thomas Keith Glennon,

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Speaker 1: who had served in who would serve in that role

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Speaker 1: until nine. As a side note, John Victory, who had

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Speaker 1: started as the clerk for n A c A, was

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Speaker 1: in the picture when NASA was founded. He had been

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Speaker 1: promoted to secretary in ninety one and executive secretary after

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Speaker 1: World War Two. He became a special assistant to NASA's

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Speaker 1: chief administrator when the new agency was formed until his

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Speaker 1: retirement in nineteen sixty and One of NASA's earliest goals

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Speaker 1: was an unmanned mission to the Moon. Once again, the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union was faster. Several attempts were made in late

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight by NASA to fly a craft past

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Speaker 1: the Moon, but all failed at various points in their

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Speaker 1: respective missions. But then on in January of nineteen fifty nine,

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Speaker 1: the USSRS Luna one launched, It passed by the Moon,

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Speaker 1: and then it went on to orbit the Sun. The

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Speaker 1: U S did manage to do the same thing two

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Speaker 1: months later with the Pioneer four on March three, but

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Speaker 1: the fact that NASA was lagging behind Soviet efforts was

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Speaker 1: really problematic four morale both at the agency and in

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Speaker 1: the country as a whole. The space raises just such

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Speaker 1: a time of high drama. Totally yeahs spent nineteen ft

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Speaker 1: nine working hard to prepare a vehicle that would orbit

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Speaker 1: the Moon, but on September four, nine, the Soviet Union

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Speaker 1: crash landed on the surface of the Moon with Luna two.

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Speaker 1: Six days later, the New York Times read the headline quote,

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Speaker 1: Russia's moonshot again demonstrates its lead in space race. The

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Speaker 1: following month, the Soviet Union photographed the backside of the

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Speaker 1: mood with Luna three, widening their lead in that race,

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Speaker 1: and things went from bad to worse. On November nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty nine. That was Thanksgiving Day, and on that day

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Speaker 1: NASA launched a lunar orbiter at one thirty two am,

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Speaker 1: but forty five seconds into the flight, the craft's fiberglass

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Speaker 1: shroud blew off, the rocket broke up, and the lunar

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Speaker 1: orbiter ended up in the Atlantic Ocean. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of time and effort that was now just sitting at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the sea. And it was one more

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Speaker 1: public failure, and it launched a series of pretty brutal

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Speaker 1: reassessments of the U S Space program. While there had

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Speaker 1: been some successes in nineteen fifty nine, there had been

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Speaker 1: a number of satellite launches that offered real learning, it

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Speaker 1: was just a rough time for NASA. Difficulties that played

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Speaker 1: out among the various branches that comprise NASA's structure, in

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Speaker 1: addition to the more visible problems of very hope high

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Speaker 1: profile project failures. As a new agency working in a

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Speaker 1: relatively new field, there were some significant issues with process

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Speaker 1: and hierarchy. A lot of nineteen sixty was spent in

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Speaker 1: reorganizing and establishing clear guidelines and lines of communication within

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Speaker 1: the agency. And now we're gonna pick back up with

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Speaker 1: James Webb's time at NASA. But first we'll take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and talk about one of our sponsors. So

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Speaker 1: one last time nature box dot com slash History. So

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Speaker 1: when we left off with James webb story, it was

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Speaker 1: February of nine one, and he had just started working

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Speaker 1: as NASA's administrator. And the problems that that fledgling organization

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Speaker 1: had during its initial years certainly offer insight into why

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Speaker 1: Webb was reluctant initially to take this position. He had

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Speaker 1: made it very clear from the beginning that he would

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Speaker 1: have his own vision of how things should run. Remember,

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Speaker 1: he had worked in the corporate sector and he was

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Speaker 1: really good at setting up bureaucracy. Uh, And he wanted

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Speaker 1: this to have more to do with long term achievement

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Speaker 1: than the mere goal of being first to the moon.

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Speaker 1: And at one point he said, quote and so far

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Speaker 1: as I'm concerned, I'm not going to run a program

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Speaker 1: that's just a one shot program. If you want me

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Speaker 1: to be the administrator, it's going to be a balanced

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Speaker 1: program that does the job for the country. Kennedy and

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Speaker 1: Johnson had experienced some difficulty in filling the administrator job.

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Speaker 1: More than a dozen people had already turned it down

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Speaker 1: when they offered it to him, so he was in

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Speaker 1: a position to make some demands. And additionally, while Webb

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Speaker 1: knew many people in politics, he was really an unknown

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Speaker 1: to the scientists and the engineers that he would now

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Speaker 1: oversee once he took his job, and there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of trepidation on both sides because of it. There

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Speaker 1: was fear at NASA that James Webb would not be

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Speaker 1: science minded and he would not be strong in terms

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Speaker 1: of valuing and promoting the work that was happening there.

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Speaker 1: Our listeners who are space buffs will recognize the significance

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Speaker 1: of the year that Webb became NASA's administrator, because it

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Speaker 1: was just a few months into his time on the

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Speaker 1: job one when President John F. Kennedy made a bold

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Speaker 1: announcement quote, I believe that this nation should commit itself

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Speaker 1: to achieving the goal before this decade is out of

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Speaker 1: landing a and on the Moon and returning him safely

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Speaker 1: to Earth. No single space project in this period will

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Speaker 1: be more impressive to mankind or more important for the

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Speaker 1: long long range exploration of space, and none will be

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Speaker 1: so difficult or expensive to accomplish. That declaration was catalyzed

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Speaker 1: in part by the fact that the Soviet Union had

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Speaker 1: achieved another milestone, once again ahead of the United States,

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Speaker 1: putting Eurie Garyan in orbit around the Earth in April

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Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty one, and Kennedy set a really high

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Speaker 1: bar for Web and Nassas had spent seven years hustling

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Speaker 1: to make a moon landing happen. Project Apollo became a

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Speaker 1: massive effort of science, politics, and sheer will, all with

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Speaker 1: the goal of landing on the Moon and then returning

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Speaker 1: to Earth before the Soviet Union could do it. It's

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Speaker 1: so funny to me, um It's I mean, it's obviously

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Speaker 1: such a key point in global history as well as

432
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 1: U S history, but I don't know why. It always

433
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: kind of makes me do quizzical puppy tilty head when

434
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: I think about the fact that like one of the

435
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 1: greatest things we ever did was really just done out

436
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: of competition. It's fascinating to me. It's kind of like

437
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen Neil de grass Tyson speak, and

438
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: he says, if you want to go to Mars, somebody

439
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: tell the U. S. Government that another country is working

440
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah. Like, there there were so many other

441
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: political factors going on in the in the relationship between

442
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: the United States and the Soviet Union at this point,

443
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: But there are parts of it where like you would

444
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: as you're reading space race history, you're like, gods, stop

445
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: arguing about whose rockets bigger. We could all get even

446
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: further if we stopped. But that's not how it works. Uh.

447
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: And again, because Webb was exceptionally good at navigating the

448
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: political system. Remember he had worked in Washington, he was

449
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: able able to leverage the fever to beat the us

450
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: SR to secure long term support and funding from the

451
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: President and the Vice President and Congress. Again, he was

452
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: really good at bureaucracy. Uh. He had NASA's long term

453
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: security in mind, and it was really that vision that

454
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: helped lay the groundwork for the organization's establishment as a

455
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: permanent agency because it was still experimental at this point.

456
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: As part of the research and development that went into

457
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: that goal, Webb fostered research programs that took the United

458
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: States and new scientific heights, robotic lunar crafts, probes to

459
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: our neighboring planets, and plans for a space telescope all

460
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: happened on his watch. Yeah, this is where we do

461
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: the caveat where we're like, there are parts of history

462
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: that we just can't go into every single point because

463
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: it will take forever. I mean to talk about all

464
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: of the things that were going on at NASA when

465
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: Webb was the head of it, because he was there

466
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: for a long time and he did have this long

467
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: ranging idea, So we're not like talking about mercury and

468
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: all of these specifics that we're going on with like

469
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: the robotic work, but just know that he was fostering

470
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: this incredible situation. You know, he was letting universities work

471
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: with NASA, He was you know, creating relationships with a

472
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: number of other entities that were just kind of like

473
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: helping to fuel this entire time of research and development.

474
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: And all of these efforts were in part possible due

475
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: to his establishment of a management system that gave workers

476
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: greater access to their higher ups to share ideas, and

477
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: it also made the best use of the knowledge that

478
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: various individuals had. For example, while Webb, recognizing that he

479
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: was not a rocket scientists. He didn't know the science

480
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: as much, even though he was a champion for it.

481
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: He dealt with the political side of things, and then

482
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: Robert Siemens, who had been part of n a c A,

483
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: acted as his deputy administrator, and he was able to

484
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: put his knowledge of rocketry to work there. And Dr

485
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: Hugh Dryden, who you remember was head of the n

486
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: a c A for quite some time, served as an advisor,

487
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: making best use of his considerable experience. So Webb was

488
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: able to see what everybody was good at and capitalize

489
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: on that without having people doing jobs they weren't really

490
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: prepared for. Webb was also really not afraid to push

491
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: back when he was questioned, even when the President of

492
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: the United States was the person doing the questioning. When

493
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: word began to circulate that James Webb was not prioritizing

494
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: the Apollo program over other initiatives, Kennedy questioned him about it.

495
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: Webb reminded the President that he had been given permission

496
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: to run NASA as he saw fit, and that while

497
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: getting to the Moon was a priority, it wasn't the

498
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: only priority. Yeah, there are I had not listened to

499
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: them before this, But there is a recording of a

500
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: conversation with that Charles Bolten had mentioned during that press

501
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: conference reference to the top of the show, he mentioned, oh,

502
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: you know, there's a recording online of James Webb talking

503
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: to the president, and you can tell that he did

504
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: not hold back about having very heated discussions and really

505
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: being quite bold and putting his opinions forth and standing

506
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: his ground. So he wanted there to be a long

507
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: term approach to science, and he was willing to fight

508
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: for program to totality instead of just focusing on that

509
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: one goal in this case going to the Moon that

510
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: would be achieved and then that goal would be done. Like,

511
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: he didn't want there to be one program with a

512
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: beginning in an end. He needed there to be things

513
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: around that that we're going on after it and side

514
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: by side. This was not a universally popular situation. Not

515
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: everyone thought that this was a good plan. For example,

516
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: the head of the Apollo program, Brainard Holmes, was very

517
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: vocal in his belief that Webb was wrong and everything

518
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: that NASA had in terms of its resources should be

519
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: put behind the moon effort, and he lost his job

520
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: for that. Web fired him and Webb had to find

521
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: a new chief to run Apollo, and that was George Mueller.

522
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: And remember this was all going on when the Space

523
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: Race was a very public issue. Uh and Webb took

524
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: a lot of criticism for making such drastic and big

525
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: changes while the Soviets were also plugging along with their program.

526
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: Webb was also willing to make ultimatums. When his engineers

527
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: told him that the lunar or rendezvous method was the

528
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: only viable way to get a lunar module home, he

529
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: trusted them. When the idea met with resistance from detractors,

530
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: James Webb backed his engineering team and told the president

531
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: that if there was any more intrusion into the issue,

532
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: he would resign. Yeah, he was able to be pretty bold.

533
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: And again it's part of the fact that he was

534
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: very good at sort of politics and bureaucracy that he

535
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: knew when to leverage his power and say nope, this

536
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: is how it's gonna go, and it either happens this

537
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: way or not at all. But unfortunately, as as is

538
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: well known, on January nineteen sixty seven, NASA's first disaster unfolded.

539
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: The Apollo Saturn two oh four sat on launch pad

540
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: thirty four at Florida's Kennedy Space Center. Astronauts Us Grissom,

541
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: Edward White, and Roger Chaffee were on board performing simulation tests.

542
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: The booster rocket was not fueled for these tests. The

543
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: spacecraft was operating under its own electrical power. The tests

544
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: ran as normal until it reached the point at ten

545
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: minutes until simulated lift off, and at that point one

546
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: of the astronauts shounded fire and flames were visible through

547
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: Apollo's windows. The heat caused the air pressure in the

548
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: capsule to rise rapidly, and the hall raptured. After just

549
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: seventeen seconds, all three astronauts a board died. This was,

550
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: of course, a devastating blur to the space program, and

551
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: a statement of the press web said, We've always known

552
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: that something like this was going to happen sooner or later,

553
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: but who would have thought the first tragedy would be

554
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: on the ground. This was massive. It was a problem

555
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: aside from the tragedy of it. Immediately everyone was wondering

556
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: why we were spending all of this money on a

557
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: program that ultimately had had failed before whatever got off

558
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: the ground and had caused the deaths of three astronauts

559
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: and Webb made the case that he wanted NASA to

560
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: investigate this accident rather than an outside entity, and he

561
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: had to make assurances that there would be honest accounting

562
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: of what had happened. And at this time, even though

563
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: the Soviets were still working on similar initiatives, the space

564
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: race had kind of lost a little bit of its luster.

565
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: It was not quite as important as it had been

566
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: at the start of the Apollo program, so the US

567
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: government and the US people had a lot of other

568
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: things to worry about forefront, including Vietnam. The examination of

569
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: the evidence indicated that an electrical fire had started in

570
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: the equipment area under Grissa's seat. The pressurized pure oxygen

571
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: atmosphere in the cabin had enabled an instant spreading of

572
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: the flames, and while the astronauts had begun the hatch

573
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: opening procedure, there was just no way they could have

574
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: managed it quickly enough to escape the blaze. Behind the scenes,

575
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: contractors were being blamed for faulty work, and in turn,

576
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: those contractors were blaming NASA's people for making changes to

577
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: specs of the rocket and the launch vehicle mid build.

578
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: But as the findings were revealed outside of NASA, it

579
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: really was largely James Webb who took the flak publicly

580
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: for it. He sat before Congress and answered all manner

581
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: of questions about basically every decision that was made that

582
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,479
Speaker 1: led ultimately to the loss of the rocket, the capsule,

583
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: and the astronauts, and his image was certainly tarnished, but

584
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: he really deflected a lot of that away from NASA

585
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: as an organization. Web wanting to ensure that the Apollo

586
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: program would continue to fruition, took all that heat and stress,

587
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: allowing most of the employees that were part of the

588
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: program to continue their work uninterrupted. He was simultaneously able

589
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: to assure Congress that the Soviets were nearing the completion

590
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: of a lunar landing project, which gave them just enough

591
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: of a scare to allow the Apollo program to keep going.

592
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: So he really had kind of saved it in that

593
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: again once again using his his incredibly um well developed

594
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: skills at navigating the political climate. Uh And in ninety eight,

595
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: as the hearings were wrapping up, James Webb considered the

596
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: state of NASA, and while he had built it into

597
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: a mostly smooth running bureaucracy, it was not void of problems.

598
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: Anything that big is going to have some issues. But

599
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: he also couldn't plan for or sidestep every possible problem,

600
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: as this Apollo tragedy had just very clearly made a

601
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: parent and knowing that the lunar landing was really seen

602
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: as Kennedy's initiative and that the next president would likely

603
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: be Republican and might not want to continue a project

604
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: that the Democratic president had started, the now exhausted Web

605
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: wanted to look toward the future of NASA leadership, recognizing

606
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: that the once hopeful image the agency had was simply

607
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: not quite as rosy after the Apollo tragedy, and he

608
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: didn't want that to be the thing that killed it off.

609
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: He really wanted to find a way to foster its future,

610
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: so he arranged to meet with Lyndon Johnson about the issue.

611
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: But Johnson took this discussion to mean that Webb was

612
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: ready to resign that day, so he suddenly found himself

613
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: out of the picture. So while Tom Paine, his successor,

614
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: got credit for the ultimate successes of the Apollo program,

615
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: it was really Webb who had championed it, worked politically

616
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: to ensure that it had long term backing, endured the

617
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: grilling and the blame for its failures, and rescued it

618
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: from a very near glance with a complete shutdown. And

619
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: in a lecture that was given at Goddard Space Flight

620
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: Center in two thousand seven, biographer Piers the Zony said

621
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: of James Webb quote, there are a lot of people

622
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: who loved him, just as many who hated him, but

623
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: no one was neutral about him. After his retirement from NASSA,

624
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: James Webb served as Regent of the Smithsonian Institution and

625
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: sat on several other advisory boards. He was awarded the

626
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: Presidential Medal of Freedom in nineteen sixty nine, Smithsonian, the

627
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: Langley Gold Medal in nineteen seventy six, and the Sylvanna

628
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: Stayer Award for West Point for dedication to his country

629
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: in one and James Webb died in and he is

630
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: buried at Arlington National Cemetery. And now we have the

631
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: James Webb Space Telescope to carry on his name. This

632
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 1: telescope is historically significant, not just because of the advancements

633
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: that it represents, but also because of the history it

634
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: will show us that will be able to basically see

635
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: back through time and effect as it will use infrared

636
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: wavelengths to peer back and see the first stars and

637
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: galaxies forming. It's like a space historian, and it's slated

638
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: for launch in October of eighteen. Yeah, I am in

639
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: love with that thing. I will just be open about

640
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 1: my bias. Uh When I have seen it, it really

641
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: is so moving. It's beautiful for one thing, Like it's

642
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: just a really striking piece of equipment. If you have

643
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: not seen it, I encourage you to go, uh do

644
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: a search for it. There's some beautiful pictures of it

645
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: out and about, especially um NASA has a lot of them.

646
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: If you go to JWST dot NASA dot gov, you

647
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: will get all of the information on the space Telescope.

648
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: And so while it's interesting because it has there have

649
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: been detractors to the idea of naming it after James

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00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: Webb because he wasn't a scientist or an engineer. But

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00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: to me, it seems so perfect because he really had

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00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: such a sense of both looking back and looking forward

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00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: at the same time that it seems like a perfect

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00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: match to me. Uh. So that is hopefully a little

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00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: bit of insight into who James Webb was and why

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00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: he is worthy of having an amazing new space telescope

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00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: named after him. Do you all have listener mail? I do.

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00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: We'll get past my Space rabies for a moment, because

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00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 1: I really get excited about it. Uh. So we got

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00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: the most amazing partial Tracy. What is it from our

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00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: listener Sarah? And I will read her note and then

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00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: I will tell you about the amazing parcel. Tracy actually

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00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: already is because I freaked out and texted her, she writes, Egads,

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00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: imagine my excitement when I heard your interview with Ann Berne.

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00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: Being a professional and recreational baker, I thoroughly enjoyed learning

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00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: about the history of American cake baking. American cake has

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00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: for sure been added to my very long backlist or booklist.

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00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: I believe it is thank you both for all you do.

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00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: I love the podcast, enjoy the cake baking supplies. Cheers.

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00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: So Sarah apparently works for Bob's Redmill, and she sent

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00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: us everything all the things, every pastry flower, every gluten

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00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: free baking mix, um which I super appreciate, uh, specialty

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00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: sugars like, just an amazing assortment of stuff so we

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00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: can bake. I actually ended up sharing them with people

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00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: in the office that I know do baking. With the

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00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: agreement that they had to bring in baked goods, so

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00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: we'll see how that turns out. Um Our editor Christopher

678
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: is a really amazing baker, so he took a lot

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00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: of stuff and I can't wait to see what he

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00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: comes up with. So thank you, thank you, thank you, Sarah.

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00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: What an incredibly generous gift. That was one of those

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00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: boxes where when our office manager Tomika put it on

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00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: my desk, there was this moment of what is this

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00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: massive shipment of cargo? It was very large, much and

685
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 1: suddenly many people were around my desk as we opened

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00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: it up and pulled everything out and gasped and were

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00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: excited about all of the yummy, delicious, big treats that

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00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: are to come. So thank you, thank you, thank you, Sarah.

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00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: That was so generous and kind. I cannot wait to

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00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: play with all of it. It looks delicious. Uh. If

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00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, you can do

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00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: so at History Podcast at how stuff Works dot com.

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00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: You can also find us across the spectrum of social

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00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: media as missed in History. So we're on Twitter as

695
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: at mist in History, on Instagram at mist in History,

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00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash missed in History, pinterest dot com,

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00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: slash missed in History, Missed in History dot tumbler dot com. Uh,

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00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: if you would like to learn a little bit more

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00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: about what we talked about today, we have you so

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00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 1: covered because we did a whole package of things about

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00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: the James Webspace Telescope at how stuff Works. So you

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00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: can out the house of works. Type in the words

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00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: James Webb or type in jws T You're gonna get

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00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: a lot of cool stuff to look at, uh and

705
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: read and learn more about him and about the telescope.

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00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: It's so mind blowing and inspiring I can't obviously, I'm

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00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: very into it, so so go do that. Visit me

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00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: and Tracy at missed in History dot com, where we

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00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: have a back catalog of all of our episodes ever

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00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: of all time, as well as show notes for any

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00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: of the episodes we have worked on together in the

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00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: occasional other goodies. So please come and visit us at

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00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: how sto works dot com and missed in History dot

714
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: com more on this and thousands of other topics. Is

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00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: it how stuff Works dot com