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Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to The

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Speaker 1: Velvet's Edge podcast. So here's the thing about John Rowa.

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Speaker 1: When I say that John Roa is a lifelong entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: a technologist, a philanthropist, a business investor, a writer, Or

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Speaker 1: that he even founded and managed six technology companies since

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Speaker 1: learning to program at age eleven, or that his largest company, Octa,

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Speaker 1: went on to be one of the fastest growing companies

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Speaker 1: in America in both two thousand thirteen and two thousand fourteen,

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Speaker 1: and was then fully acquired by Salesforce in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and fifteen. That all sounds really impressive, but that's actually

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Speaker 1: not the reason I was drawn to talk to John.

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Speaker 1: I heard a clip advertising his podcast, The John Rowa

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Speaker 1: Show that openly discussed the mental breakdown that came as

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Speaker 1: a result of all of that success, and that was

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Speaker 1: what caught my interest. I'm drawn to people who want

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Speaker 1: to get real and tell the truth about life, the

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Speaker 1: truth about their imperfection even in their victory, and the

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Speaker 1: oath that comes even after the breakdown. That is the

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Speaker 1: movement that John Roa is starting with his podcast and

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Speaker 1: other similar minded entrepreneurs, and that is what we talked about. Today.

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Speaker 1: The greatest gift my podcast has given me is introducing

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Speaker 1: and connecting me with people who may have different outward

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Speaker 1: walks of life, but the inward struggles are all the same.

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Speaker 1: That connection is the most beautiful thing on the planet

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Speaker 1: to me, and I'm so grateful I got to experience

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Speaker 1: it in hearing John's story. I hope you do too.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Okay, so here's what I love. It's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily about, you know, hearing about people who accomplish

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Speaker 1: great things, because I think we hear a lot of

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Speaker 1: stories like that, and I mean, obviously, don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: that's super interesting, but I'm even more interested in the

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Speaker 1: reality of what those accomplishments look like. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think as a society, we focus just a lot on

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Speaker 1: the things that hit big or the people, what people

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Speaker 1: are known for, but we leave out all of that

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Speaker 1: messiness that came before or after, and it just makes

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Speaker 1: everyone listening to the great story feel like complete shit

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Speaker 1: about their own abilities and their own life. So that's

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Speaker 1: what honestly, that's what drew me to you. Um we

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Speaker 1: both have podcasts on my heart, So I heard an

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Speaker 1: ad for your new podcast, and we'll talk about that

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Speaker 1: a little bit later. But we started, You've started this

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Speaker 1: conversation of building and selling this wildly successful business, which

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Speaker 1: is what most people dream of, but then also on

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Speaker 1: the other side of that, just having this almost nervous

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Speaker 1: breakdown and all of the stuff that came with that.

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Speaker 1: So I want to know that story. Um, So let's

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Speaker 1: back up a little bit. Let's do a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the back story, because I want people to understand

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Speaker 1: you first. But um, will you just tell people? I know,

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Speaker 1: I read that you started your first business when you

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Speaker 1: were fifteen. Yeah, that's right. Yet, Okay, so if you

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Speaker 1: always just had this entrepreneurial spirit I have, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know there was a term for it, you know,

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Speaker 1: like even pulling myself an entrepreneur. When I was young,

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Speaker 1: all I wanted to do is solve problems. That's that's

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Speaker 1: what how my brain works. So I'd see something that

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Speaker 1: I just wasn't okay with, you know, with with existing,

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Speaker 1: and immediately my brain would just kind of say, right,

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Speaker 1: I gotta fix that. And as you as you get

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Speaker 1: a bit, you know, older, and I did that as

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Speaker 1: a child, right, and so as my teenage years, fixing

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Speaker 1: the problem became like starting businesses to fix problems and

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Speaker 1: so so yeah, I mean it's just how my brain

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Speaker 1: is built. And you know, we we love to romanticize

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurship and we love to um to look at like

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Speaker 1: these tax c eos is kind of almost like the

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Speaker 1: rock stars and celebrities of our day. But it's there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of downsides that come along with the entrepreneurial mind. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily going to make your life that fund.

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Speaker 1: You're not easy when your brain is always on and

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Speaker 1: it's always like what can we change or solve or

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Speaker 1: build or fix or and so you know it. And

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Speaker 1: so I've been kind of cognizant of a lot of

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Speaker 1: those kind of negatives of it because you can't ever

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Speaker 1: just kind of be satiated and be chilled out. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: when I was an early teenager, UM, I started programming,

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Speaker 1: building computers, hacking like a proper tech nerd, kind of

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Speaker 1: before it was like in vogue or today we're we're

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Speaker 1: teaching like, you know, kindergarten students how to program it

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Speaker 1: stuff like the whole different world today. But back then,

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Speaker 1: you know, mid nineties, this was kind of an a

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Speaker 1: typical path and I just I just loved computers. This

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Speaker 1: was obsessed with everything about them and U and then

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Speaker 1: the access that it gave us as your early age

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Speaker 1: of the Internet, exploring stuff, breaking into stuff, hacking, doing

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Speaker 1: wild ship and I was like, this is the coolest

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Speaker 1: thing ever. And then it's spun into us, and then

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Speaker 1: it spun into about thirty five businesses over the next

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Speaker 1: twenty years. Thirty five. That's my best number. I actually

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Speaker 1: don't know how the stuff I well, I was gonna

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Speaker 1: ask you because I mean you always hear out the

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Speaker 1: business that actually puts people on the map. But how

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Speaker 1: many businesses do you think you actually created before you

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Speaker 1: had a super successful one? Was it the thirty five number? Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. It's like it's it's kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to say because to me, creating businesses is like a

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Speaker 1: very fluid thing. So you know, there's probably about six

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Speaker 1: or seven companies that were like properly started, you know,

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Speaker 1: like full startup um, you know, employees and revenue and

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Speaker 1: like existed for years. There's probably another number of dozens that, like,

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Speaker 1: you start and then you're like, wow, this is the

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Speaker 1: dumbest thing ever done. I'm gon show this thing now.

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Speaker 1: And so there's you know a number of fans like

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Speaker 1: quick failures, then there's probably another hundred and fifty that

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Speaker 1: I at least like theorized or put like a plan

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Speaker 1: to and and all of that. So kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to say like which which category you count as like

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Speaker 1: starting a business, but you know, I've been in at

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Speaker 1: least the theorization stage of hundreds probably at this point.

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Speaker 1: So obviously the most successful business you're known for is ACTA.

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Speaker 1: And I mean when you read about this company, it's

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Speaker 1: your largest company. It went on to be one of

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Speaker 1: the fastest growing companies in America in both two thousand

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Speaker 1: thirteen and two thousand fourteen, and then you sold it

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Speaker 1: um So you build it up, you sell it, and

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Speaker 1: then you would think you would just ride off into

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Speaker 1: the sunset and you live your best, most free, most

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Speaker 1: amazing life. But what really happened, well, and this is

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Speaker 1: the funny part is I technically did and ride off

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Speaker 1: into the sunset. Well, what I did when I sold

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Speaker 1: it was I went I've been living on an island

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Speaker 1: in Greece the last four years, so I quite literally

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Speaker 1: did go do that. The reason that I needed to

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Speaker 1: do that is because you know, I started this company

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Speaker 1: at twenty six years old, um, ten years ago. I'm

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Speaker 1: thirty six now, so ten years ago almost exactly start

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Speaker 1: this company. At this point, I have a lot of,

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Speaker 1: um to call it, experience as an entrepreneur. And what

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Speaker 1: I mean is a lot of failures, a lot of

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Speaker 1: hard lessons. But I had no success. And so at

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Speaker 1: twenty six years old, um, I I basically failed out

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Speaker 1: of high school. I barely passed. I got kicked out

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Speaker 1: of a few colleges. So I wasn't exactly an academic superstar.

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Speaker 1: I had really never held a proper job because I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to do my own thing, and so I

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Speaker 1: was a couple of kind of silly jobs, but none

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Speaker 1: of those worked out that well. And I'm from Detroit.

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Speaker 1: My families from my father worked in the auto industry.

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Speaker 1: So when the economy crashed, you know, over ten years

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Speaker 1: ago in Detroit, crashed with it, my whole family was

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Speaker 1: screwed over as well. He lost his job and a

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Speaker 1: lot of his pensions. So but me and the family

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Speaker 1: were not in a great position ten years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I was. I was something like a hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: grand in debt total from private university, from traveling from

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Speaker 1: star busnesses and so that came into forum, like student

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Speaker 1: debt that came in the forum with maxed out credit cards.

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Speaker 1: Like it was a really shitty point in my life.

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Speaker 1: And uh, and it kind of got to this precipice,

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Speaker 1: which is like, I mean, they're gonna figure it out

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Speaker 1: now or probably never figure it out. It's just kind

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Speaker 1: of like it was. It was basically like started tag

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Speaker 1: company at works or go work at like Starbucks. And

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Speaker 1: I don't mean that to be self deprecating. I mean

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Speaker 1: literally like, just do anything to start making some money

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Speaker 1: and just get back on my feet. I started they

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Speaker 1: called doctor, and it was um completely done on a whim.

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Speaker 1: Like it was a design and innovation consultancy. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a designer, haven't started design. I don't know how to design.

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Speaker 1: I just saw an opportunity in the marketplace and kind

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Speaker 1: of stead of like I think this is a service

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Speaker 1: that I can sell, and I think this is a

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Speaker 1: service that people would want to buy and spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of money on. And I'm pretty sure that if

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Speaker 1: I can sell it, there's gonna be people I can

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Speaker 1: then hire to do the work. And that was it.

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Speaker 1: I mean that that was my entire basically yeah. So

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Speaker 1: you know, this was at a point in time, you know,

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Speaker 1: the iPhone release into how and seven and Apple kind

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Speaker 1: of changed the game when it came to the appreciation

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Speaker 1: of design that user experience at the consumer level. We

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Speaker 1: kind of appreciated how much better good design is for

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Speaker 1: for how we use a product, and then all these

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Speaker 1: apps and stuff, and so my theory was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: everyone wants to design better stuff for their companies, for

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Speaker 1: their products, apps, experiences, whatever, but it's very difficult to do, right.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason that Apple is a trillion dollar companies

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Speaker 1: is not an easy just so I I kind of

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Speaker 1: figured that instead of every company trying to hire designers

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Speaker 1: and build design teams, there must be room for a

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Speaker 1: very modern kind of design consultancy where we would be

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Speaker 1: kind of their outsourced design team for for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better way to think about it. And and that

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Speaker 1: was it. And so I kind of went to where

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Speaker 1: the money is, which is in tech is venture capital.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to do the investors. And again,

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Speaker 1: I have no portfolio, no team, no experience. I have

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Speaker 1: nothing to stand on except conviction. And so I go

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Speaker 1: to the venture capital investors who are putting you know,

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars into startups and basically said, if your

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Speaker 1: portfolio companies can't build beautiful products, they're going to fail,

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Speaker 1: and if they fail, you lose your millions of dollars.

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Speaker 1: So I want you to earmark, you know, two grand

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Speaker 1: of the two millions for me and my team. We

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Speaker 1: will come in and make sure that your companies design

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Speaker 1: amazing stuff for their products, and therefore it will make

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Speaker 1: your investment more fruitful, right, and then reduce the chance

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Speaker 1: of your investment failing. And that was my entire pitch

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Speaker 1: and and it worked. And this is in Chicago twenty time.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, so, we had a few venture capital

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Speaker 1: firms and we basically started doing the design for all

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Speaker 1: of their portfolio companies. And I just hired guys that

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Speaker 1: I've worked with in the past and LA and other

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Speaker 1: places around the country. And and you know, again, I'm

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Speaker 1: not the designer, so I could kind of put together

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Speaker 1: what I thought the company wanted, that I'd go hire

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Speaker 1: somebody who can do the work. And that was how

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Speaker 1: it started. And then you know, two years later, it's

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Speaker 1: one of it's the thing. I think it's the single

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Speaker 1: fastest growing agency in the country at the time. And

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Speaker 1: one of the fastest companies of any kind of time.

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Speaker 1: So it's just it just exploded. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: had no investors, no board, I had no partners um,

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Speaker 1: there was never any investors. I bootstrapped company the whole way.

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Speaker 1: I think by next investment pre revenue was eight hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars in the company UM and and so you know

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Speaker 1: which best stuff All sounds cool, right you turned, you know,

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Speaker 1: but one ends up happening to grow a company like that.

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Speaker 1: And this is what I didn't realize out of just

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Speaker 1: frankly ignorant and inexperience, was to you, you need capital

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Speaker 1: with growing company. So it's got to come from somewhere.

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Speaker 1: So I could have gone to investors, but when I

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Speaker 1: wanted them, they didn't give a shit about me. And

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Speaker 1: when they wanted me, I was like, you can go

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Speaker 1: about yourself. You're too late, like you missed. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm now doing this on my own. The problem with

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Speaker 1: that is that it's got to come from somewhere. So

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Speaker 1: I started taking personal guarantees on projects, and like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: like you sign a you know, five year lease for

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Speaker 1: twenty yrandom month or whatever, and someone has to personally

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Speaker 1: guaranteed that like bankruptcy won't cut it. So I'd be

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Speaker 1: signing my name in my life away at all this

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Speaker 1: growth of the company, and you know, a couple of

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Speaker 1: years in I probably have I don't know how many

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars and personal guarantees against me. Well I'm

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Speaker 1: still broke. I take that. I mean it's serious risk,

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Speaker 1: and what that risk does to your psyche is good,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're kind of feeling, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: a loan on an island, right Like, I didn't feel

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Speaker 1: like I had a lot of support. I didn't feel

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Speaker 1: like I could explain this anybody. I kept it all internal. Um.

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell friends or family. I actually I think

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Speaker 1: it was fine the whole time, which is very common

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Speaker 1: amongst entpreneurs. You know, we were we we kind of

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Speaker 1: thing's great. Um. You know, I think I wrote this

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Speaker 1: in a book, but there's yum. You go into a

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Speaker 1: room with like a hundred entreprene of person and and

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Speaker 1: everyone is like, I'm crushing it. And you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: if you are going out of business, so how are

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Speaker 1: you all crushing it? You know, like everyone is so

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Speaker 1: full of ship because we have to front this image

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Speaker 1: that we know we're doing that. We're gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: make it, even though most of us won't. They're playing

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Speaker 1: a loser's game, well, pretending we're winning the whole time.

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Speaker 1: And so for me, it was like, Okay, the company's working,

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Speaker 1: we are making money, we have employees, this is all good.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, I'm like, this could die at

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Speaker 1: any given second, and it's so I'm fucked for life.

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not going to call out of this,

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Speaker 1: maybe until I'm dead, you know. Like, so what that

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Speaker 1: does to you is just really dangerous, right, And I'm

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Speaker 1: you know, I've dealt with mental health is used my

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Speaker 1: whole life, um more like garden variety stuff, and that

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Speaker 1: was some anxiety and some levels of depression. When you

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Speaker 1: get in that environment, everything becomes very real, right, and

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Speaker 1: so it exacerbates all that to a huge degree. And

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Speaker 1: so I started really struggling with my own mind and

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Speaker 1: keeping everything moving forward. And then I started to walk

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Speaker 1: down all of those kind of classic self destructive paths

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Speaker 1: when you get there. And it's the same thing that

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Speaker 1: like I now realized when you read some article about

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Speaker 1: some like like the the Justin Bieber stuff, and like

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Speaker 1: fifteen years ten years ago when he was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting arrested, like stealing monkeys and driving Lamborghinis around and

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Speaker 1: crashing and like you get it. You're like, there's this

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Speaker 1: self destructive pattern you fall into because you're just like

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Speaker 1: fun everything, like you can't handle it. You just want

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Speaker 1: to kind of go out and break stuff. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of where I got to. I was, I was angry,

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Speaker 1: I was like you know, and I was also been

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Speaker 1: at some point kind of making money, which which desperbates

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Speaker 1: the whole thing even more. And so you know, I

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Speaker 1: became a bit self destructive. And so it was a

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Speaker 1: lot of you know, it was like working very hard,

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Speaker 1: you know, suit and tie and crushing business. But then

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Speaker 1: as soon as the kind of lights were off, it

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, lot of partying. It was drugs, women,

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Speaker 1: it was it was all of the vices and in

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Speaker 1: mental health wrapped around all of that mental issues and

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Speaker 1: it got pretty crazy. And then um to what you

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Speaker 1: alluded to earlier, you know, the company is now crushing

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Speaker 1: a huge company, and I had a full on mental breakdown,

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Speaker 1: like not not a not not in the way people

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Speaker 1: kind of say like, oh, I had a terrist breaking

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Speaker 1: Like I had a proper mental breakdown, hospitalized for almost

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Speaker 1: it was almost five days, UM within a few stay

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Speaker 1: disassociate amnesia. It was it was bad. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: the chances had I not been twenty nine or whatever

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Speaker 1: I was at thirty at the time, I probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have survived it if I was like double that age,

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Speaker 1: you know. But because I was young and you can

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Speaker 1: kind of bounce back, I did. But it was it

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Speaker 1: was touch and go. It was really scary. And that's

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Speaker 1: when I kind of realized I had to make some

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Speaker 1: some serious changes and UH and put a planet together

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Speaker 1: to sell the company. And and you know, despite you're

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Speaker 1: worried that the company is like it had died any second,

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Speaker 1: the company is amazing. Thing that we built was a

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Speaker 1: great company. But I just could never kind of fully

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Speaker 1: kind of reconcile that. So we put a plan together

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Speaker 1: and then UM five years ago, almost exactly, UM sold

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Speaker 1: the company to Salesforce, who's the biggest tech company in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, and UM and it was great. You know

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Speaker 1: that everyone was very happy with a deal, and all

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Speaker 1: my employees UM got jobs at Salesforce, and most of

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Speaker 1: them are actually still there, which is crazy. That's not normal. Acquisitions,

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Speaker 1: and and I worked there for a bit as an executive.

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Speaker 1: Didn't love it. It's hard to be a hired or

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Speaker 1: acquired and executive, especially when you're still trying to fix

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Speaker 1: your mind and body. And so I did some work

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Speaker 1: on myself, some some work with a doctor, and then

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Speaker 1: I took off and moved to Miconos, Greece and built

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Speaker 1: a house and I've been living there in the last

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Speaker 1: four years in the summers and then in London and

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Speaker 1: the winters, and and I wrote a book about this.

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Speaker 1: So the whole, the whole reason I'm back and having

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Speaker 1: these discussions is that I really want to tell the

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Speaker 1: real story to to what you said earlier, Like there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of b s out there. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who who are not forthright about the real experiences,

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Speaker 1: and and I wanted to kind of hopefully start a

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Speaker 1: trend amongst entrepreneurs and amongst CEOs and stuff to be

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Speaker 1: more open and honest. So I wrote this memoir. UM.

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Speaker 1: It's called A Practical Way to Get Rich and Guy

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Speaker 1: Trying UM, And it's with Penguin Random House and it

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Speaker 1: comes out Kember eight. So I don't know when this

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Speaker 1: podcast airs, but it might be close to that date.

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Speaker 1: And it's everything I've told you. It is a gnarly

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Speaker 1: wild twisting, sometimes sad, sometimes hilarious look at success um.

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Speaker 1: And then off the back of that, we did the podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there you go. There's everything, and I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about both of those in detail. I have so many

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Speaker 1: questions just hearing this initial story. I mean, I I

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Speaker 1: want to go back a little bit, because how in

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Speaker 1: the world are you running this insanely big, you know,

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Speaker 1: fast growing company and doing all of the partying, all

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Speaker 1: of the like crazy ship that you were doing, Like

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Speaker 1: how were you functioning? You know? Well, there's two sides

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Speaker 1: to it. The first is like I don't know right

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Speaker 1: because I don't reflect the need stories and it is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Like the stuff that we would do right before and

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Speaker 1: right after significantly important business stuff was was so egregious,

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Speaker 1: was so irresponsible. At the same time, I've now met

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Speaker 1: a lot of entrepreneurs that make me look like you know, Pinocchio,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. This is really and it's

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Speaker 1: not just among entrepreneurs, Like think of like the you know,

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Speaker 1: think of like Wall Street as hey Day, everyone's like

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Speaker 1: coke and lunch and like, yeah, you know, hookers in

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Speaker 1: the in the border at after the meetings like so,

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Speaker 1: so the the the kind of connotation in the connection

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Speaker 1: of excess and kind of self destructiveness with success is

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Speaker 1: long run on a new thing. Um. But I think

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Speaker 1: tech entrepreneurship being this like old rush and being so

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Speaker 1: significant in our daily lives and everyone wants the chases

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Speaker 1: this dragon. It's very common. It's very very common. Wow.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I work in the music industry, so

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Speaker 1: I've seen that a lot with new artists too. It's

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Speaker 1: a very similar like the second you start to get

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Speaker 1: big success, it's just I don't know if it's just

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Speaker 1: so overwhelming or if it's a combination of overwhelming and exciting,

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Speaker 1: and so you just kind of go for it. Um.

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Speaker 1: I read somewhere just to interject, because I think this

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Speaker 1: is a really important piece of that. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I've talked to so many people now, not just entrepreneurs,

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Speaker 1: but athletes, musicians, everything else, and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of it comes down to imposter syndrome, because when you

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Speaker 1: start best early, you kind of don't believe you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to write, and then you're kind of like, oh, ship that.

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Speaker 1: I like that I fake it to get here? Am

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Speaker 1: I am? I not supposed to be here? Is someone

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Speaker 1: going to find out that I'm a fraud? Like until

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Speaker 1: you start to you start to really struggle to reconcile

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Speaker 1: if you deserve it, if you've earned it, all those things,

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Speaker 1: and that leads to just mental chaos, and I think

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Speaker 1: that leads to a lot of that break. So that's

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Speaker 1: a lot of what you were feeling when the company

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Speaker 1: was growing. You feel like that just maybe, I mean

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Speaker 1: I relate to that so much. I think everyone who

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Speaker 1: has started to feel some sort of success or like

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Speaker 1: I'm in a creative world and so I always go,

392
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Speaker 1: oh my god, what are the people going to find

393
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Speaker 1: me out? You know, like when are they going to

394
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Speaker 1: just go she's not really as good as she is

395
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Speaker 1: presenting herself, or she's like faked that she knows what

396
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Speaker 1: she's doing, but really she's just figuring it out every day.

397
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Speaker 1: Like were you feeling that as the business was growing

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Speaker 1: every single day? Yeah? And it was like, um, it

399
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Speaker 1: was like a ping pong match in my head. What

400
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Speaker 1: do you mean? Like do you know what Newton's Cradle

401
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 1: is one of those like in business class with those

402
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Speaker 1: five balls, like you pull one to side and drop

403
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Speaker 1: it and hit the fie balls and flies off the

404
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Speaker 1: other side. Yes, that's what I felt like. It was

405
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Speaker 1: going through my head all day. Like on one side,

406
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Speaker 1: I was like I meant to do this. I deserve this.

407
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: You know what I'm doing, right, Um, you know I'm capable,

408
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Speaker 1: I'm smart, And that ball would drop and hit the

409
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Speaker 1: other ones and the one flies off the other side,

410
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Speaker 1: being like, you're a fraud, you faked it to get here,

411
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Speaker 1: You're a liar. You don't deserve this. Um, you know

412
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Speaker 1: this is gonna crumble and then everyone's gonna realize that

413
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: you didn't know what you were doing. And then it

414
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: would and then you would bounce back and you're like

415
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Speaker 1: you're the man, and you just go back and forth

416
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,959
Speaker 1: and back and forth, and like it's it's maddening what

417
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: that does to you. I almost wonder when I hear

418
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Speaker 1: you say that, it feels a little bit like the

419
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: battle between your ego and your critical voice inside of

420
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Speaker 1: your head, you know, like, because your ego will tell

421
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: you these things to pump you up, or like you

422
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Speaker 1: deserve this, and and it's kind of this false sense

423
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: of whatever that is, and then you have that critical

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00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: voice is this complete opposite scales, so really like you're

425
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: probably somewhere in the middle if you can get there,

426
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Speaker 1: like mentally, but the vacillation between the two is so

427
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: extreme it's crazy. And it's this is a and even

428
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 1: amongst people that you're like, that person can't possibly have imposters.

429
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: And and it's usually the people who are most ironically

430
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: who are actually most qualified, have the most impostors in there,

431
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: Like people who are kind of hacked. The actual frauds

432
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: don't seem to have this. I's the ones who were

433
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: actually meant to do it. Their brains have this struggle.

434
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: Like there are quotes from like Maya Angelou and and

435
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: Howard Schultz to see you on foundering Starbucks and Tom

436
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 1: Hanks and these kind of people. I forget what Tom

437
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: Hanks's exact quote was, but it's it's unbelievable. He's like,

438
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: when are they going to figure out that I am

439
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: a complete fraud? And I don't know how to act

440
00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: like you know, and you're like your Tom Hanks. I mean,

441
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: it's it's crazy, but you generally don't hear it from

442
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: people who actually are the kind of fraud Like I'm

443
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: guessing these like C List actors and how they would

444
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: aren't thinking this right, that they think that they're the ship. Yeah,

445
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: it's the people who are really the highest levels of

446
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: the highest function seem to struggle with this more, which

447
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: is strange. Yeah. I mean I was reading. When I

448
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 1: was reading, UM, a lot of your friends who are

449
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: also very successful people wrote reviews of your book, which

450
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: the book is called How to Get Rich and Die Trying.

451
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: It's actually available for pre order now, so I'm gonna

452
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: link it in the bio of this podcast, but it

453
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 1: comes out on September eight. That can't wait to read it.

454
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: But a lot of your friends, UM, did reviews of

455
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: the book and they were shocked that you had all

456
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: of these feelings in meldown. I mean, these are your friends,

457
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: like people who knew you, and they said they were

458
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: picking up the book thinking, oh, I'm just going to

459
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: read about you know, John's success and the great story

460
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,239
Speaker 1: to rise and you know, accomplishing all these things, and

461
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: they were like, what this is what was actually happening

462
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: during this whole thing? I mean, so you kept this

463
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: hidden from everyone everyone, UM, family, friends, because you know,

464
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: part of it with self defense, Yeah, a mechanism because

465
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: if people knew two things would happen. Number One, I'd

466
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: have to explain it, which I didn't want to do.

467
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be in a position to have

468
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: to explain what I was doing and why I was

469
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: doing it. If you didn't have to explain it, you

470
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: could kind of pretend it wasn't real. So that was

471
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: part of it. The other part was that they would

472
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: start to worry. Right naturally, your friends and family would

473
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: help you, and I was like, you're not gonna be

474
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: able to help me, you know it, Even though that's

475
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: completely ridiculous. They probably could have done tremendous things for me.

476
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't believe anyone could help me. So

477
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: I kind of had this mindset of like I'm going

478
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: at this alone, like you guys, stay away and I'll

479
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: let you know when i'm back kind of thing. Um

480
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: And you know, like I was dating um, a wonderful

481
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: woman when I started the company, and we lived together

482
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: and whatever, and I broke up with her, and that

483
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: my justification was I can't do both. I can't be

484
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: a good boyfriend and run this company. And it's one

485
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: of those things I was so convinced that I was, like,

486
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: you can't do both, it's impossible whatever. Ten years later,

487
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: I realized it might have been my greatest mistake not

488
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: having partner and those kind of things, because I have

489
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: a lot of highly successful friends today and the ones

490
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: who were in loving, productive relationships are so much better

491
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: at both life and business. Um, it's but it's these

492
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: things I convinced myself. But I had made this rule

493
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: book in my head for what I had to do,

494
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: and I just refused to kind of you know, adjustice. Um,

495
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: I read that you said we're so scared too, were

496
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: so scared to admit that we aren't superheroes, And that

497
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: was that was so interesting to me to think about because,

498
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: you know, especially right now, I feel like with the

499
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: social media world, everyone is constantly just trying to convince

500
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: other people that we all have our ship together, right,

501
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: Like it's just this constant like here's my best self,

502
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: and none of us are actually doing that, Like it's

503
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: all bullshit. So why do you think we're so scared

504
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: to just admit that we can't do it all? I

505
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: think there's two components, right. I think there's there's a

506
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: natural inclination, especially amongst self starters and leaders, that we

507
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: want people to believe in us, right, Like, if we're

508
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: trying to start a business, you mean people to say

509
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonnattach my wagon to that guy,

510
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, and in that you're

511
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: asking a lot from people, and so they need to

512
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: at least we tend to think that they need to

513
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: think that we are somehow as gift ded or as

514
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: smart or as whatever that as possible. Therefore, the chances

515
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: of them, you know, wanting to associate with us or

516
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: invest in us, or believe in us or work for

517
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: us or whatever it is will be heightened, right because

518
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: it's it's it's twenty six and I'm starting accept if

519
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: i'd gone or out of people being like I don't

520
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: know what I'm doing, right, I am. I am winging it,

521
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: you know, like it's unlikely get my first client R.

522
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: Whereas I go to people and I'm like, I'm starting

523
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: the best design company in the world and They're like, okay,

524
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, Like so I think that part of it

525
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: is it works. And so because we we have a

526
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: tendency to be drawn towards people who do appear to

527
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: be superhuman. And this is why Celebritism exists today as

528
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: it does not just today, it has for decades. You know,

529
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: the reason that we photographed ms walking on the streets

530
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,479
Speaker 1: if they're not just sucking walking on the streets, Like

531
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: it is not that interesting that later DiCaprio is going

532
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: to the coffee, right, But we are obsessed with this

533
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: glamorization of people that are somehow above us in some

534
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: kind of way. Right, So I think that that's that's

535
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: one component um. And the second is I think it

536
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: is getting worse. And this what you allude to, ithis

537
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: like the social media thing is there's just this kind

538
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: of like there's just this constant battle to to be

539
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: to fit into this narrative of whatever it is, beauty, success, whatever.

540
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: And and if you're the one who's standing outside that narrative,

541
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: if you feel like I might get left high, right,

542
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: So like if everyone's having a good time, don't happen

543
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: a good time too, even though it's likely none of

544
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: us are. So I think as soon as that momentum comes,

545
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: we feel somewhat like obligated to participate into it. I

546
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: know I do it right, Like there's yeah, I mean

547
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: even to this day, and I try so hard not

548
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: to you know you're going to post the picture, and

549
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: you're like, you of course have to grab the best

550
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: and most perfect one, right if you have three options,

551
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: if you have like completely like horrible photo of you

552
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: and a good photo of you, have like one that's

553
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: like banging, you're there's no way you're posting on the

554
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: other two, right, And and you're kind of like, Okay, yeah,

555
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: why would I Why would I show my not best self?

556
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: But then you're also like, because I should, that's generally

557
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: who I am if I not best self. But but

558
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: we're kind of, you know, in somewhat this point trained,

559
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: and people would even look at that visible why would

560
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: you post this shitty photo of you? Right? And I

561
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: think when you see people who are truly elevated above

562
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: this and can be self deprecating and whatever, it's pretty amazing.

563
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: But it's hard to do. It's freaking hard to do,

564
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: and it's definitely hard to do consistently. Like I think,

565
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: I like, there's some days do you feel this where

566
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: it's like you know, you're like, you know, I'm gonna

567
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: be wholeheartedly living my best life, but like my real life,

568
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna show people who I really am. And

569
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: I can show up and do that, And then there's

570
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: other days where I'm like fuck that, Like I need

571
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: to look like a bad bit, you know, like post

572
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: like the thing where I look the hottest I've ever

573
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: looked from the best angle. Just I think we need

574
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: both and I can't quite figure out what that is.

575
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: But um, one of the things I've noticed in the

576
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: pandemic is like kind of feel like people are getting

577
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: a little exhausted of the perfect life ship. Like we're

578
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: all kind of just in this collective trauma going yeah,

579
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: it's not so perfect, Like this is hard, and I

580
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: want to be honest about that, Like, have you noticed

581
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: a shift at all? You know what I think it is.

582
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: I think people are like overcorrecting because life is so

583
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: shitty that people are like going in the other direction

584
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: of like maybe even for showing that perfect life, to

585
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: just correct for how fucked up things are. And in

586
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: some ways, in some ways it's it's like if I

587
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: just posted how mundane and shitty life can be, no

588
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: one would really want the other obbligation. Like now that

589
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: we're in this social validation world of likes and shares

590
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: and like whatever retweets, I think there's that as well.

591
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: Is you? Is you kind of build up this mindset

592
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: of like no one wants to see when something bad happens.

593
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: Like I'll be very honest, like yesterday for me, it

594
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: was a fucking awful day. I had a very bad

595
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: day yesterday. Um from a business perspective, like we got

596
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: some kind of news I didn't want and like I

597
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: was in the dumps yesterday. But I'm like, what am

598
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: I What should I then do? Like post a video

599
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: and explain how sad I am? Like it's just you know,

600
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: it's like it's a weird. It's a weird thing, you know,

601
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: because I'm sure some people would appreciate it. But I'm

602
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: also like that, so I just want to like why

603
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: would I just go out and tell the world that

604
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm sad today? You know. So it's a it's a

605
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: strange place to be for sure. It's a fine line. Well,

606
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: speaking of perfect life, I mean you mentioned that you

607
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: have been living in Greece for what four or you

608
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: lived in Greece for four years, and I mean when

609
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: you hear your story, like you're in your thirties, you

610
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: basically sell this company and make enough money to worry,

611
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't have to work another day in your

612
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 1: life and like still live a luxury lifestyle and so

613
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: like you do realize most people listening be like, oh okay,

614
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: poor John. You know, like it's not like it doesn't

615
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: necessarily for a person who gets up every day and

616
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: goes to a nine or five job, like that sounds

617
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: like a dream. So can you tell us that, Like,

618
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: what does it actually feel like, because I mean, from outward,

619
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, the outward appearance, it sounds pretty freaking amazing. Well,

620
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: I mean, and listen, a lot of it is. I'm

621
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: not going to pretend like it's not. I'm not gonna

622
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna try to. I don't want sympathy. I'm

623
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: not I don't want them to feel bad for what

624
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: I experienced. Like the only person responsible to what I

625
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: did to myself was me. And I'm not looking for

626
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: any sympathy. I'm not looking for any you know, any

627
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: of that. Um, you know, my life has been very polarizing.

628
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: There has been some absolutely incredible things and some just

629
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: so up, you know, horrible things, and they've kind of

630
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: come in somewhat equal parts, and so, you know, and

631
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: that's when you get into the book. I think, I

632
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: think you'll see this is I I'm not looking for sympathy.

633
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm not even be looking for like I'm not suhere.

634
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: The word is like there is there is a sense

635
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: of redemption because I have some bad behavior. There's some

636
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: things that I regret. So I have you know, grown

637
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: up and evolved and I'm a better person today than

638
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: I was. And so in some ways like redemption feels

639
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: nice is personally I don't care iverybody else sees it

640
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: that way. But there is absolutely no sense of like,

641
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: oh look how hard it works become a millionaire. That book,

642
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: the book is. The point of the book is like

643
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: I want to be more open and honest about life,

644
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: and I want to start with mine. I can't start

645
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: with yours. I can start with mine. And so I

646
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: want to talk about myself. I want to talk about

647
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: breakdown and burnout and substance abuse and and you know,

648
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: and and also informed ways that we could help each

649
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: other and ways that I could have, you know, swarve

650
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: myself out had I wanted to. So so just to

651
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: kind of baseline it with that is, I'm not looking

652
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: for sympathy. So with that's said, I mean parts of

653
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: that we're looking awesome like, let's be honest, I I

654
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: achieved my lifelong dream, right, I wanted to do my

655
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: own and I and and yeah, I took a pretty

656
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: pushed the bunk up, papping up there, but yes, I

657
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: got there, and like she has, being your dream feels good.

658
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: And then basically I felt this pulling which a lot

659
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: of entrepreneur, especially in tech, do, which is you've made

660
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: your money, now go do it again. And and and it's

661
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: amazing because the moment you tell the company, everyone in

662
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: the world like, what are you doing next? What's next company?

663
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: How much can I investine me? And And I've seen

664
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: so many people do this, so many entrepreneurs go right

665
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: back into the game. And I'm like, fuck that. I'm

666
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: just like feeling anywhere near that again. And my my

667
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: best friend Hamsa and I were in Chicago. I was, well,

668
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: we were actually in l A. I was dating a

669
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: girl in l A. Um, we just started dating. And

670
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: She's kind of like, we should go on vacation. You know,

671
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: I'm just going to meek and out screeze. And so

672
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: we went and I a should brought ham some of

673
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: my best friends with me, which was a really funny trip.

674
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: Get to Greece, and you know, at this point, I'm

675
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: on no employment, I have no restriction, I have no

676
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: I have nothing. I can literally do whatever I want,

677
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: which is a very strange places. You know, yeah, yeah,

678
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: that it is very odd to you have worked as

679
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: hard as I did and then just one day you

680
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: wake up and you're like, no one cares any more.

681
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 1: That's very odd. There's nothing. There's nothing, there's no employees,

682
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: there's no schedules, no less systems, there's nothing. It's very strange.

683
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: So we go to this island and it's a very

684
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: special place and it's I just I don't know, I

685
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: walked off that planet and I just come was like,

686
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: this is where I want to beach for a while.

687
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to get kind of fall back in

688
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: those traps. And the girl friend I did last very long,

689
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: but that's friends state with me. And I built a house.

690
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: I built, you know, kind of this you know, this

691
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: dream house. And and then I met some guys who

692
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: are opening like a beach club and messaging that and

693
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: I just said like I'm gonna I'm gonna try to

694
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: reset and I'm gonna try to just enjoy life for

695
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: for a walk. And that's what happened for you know,

696
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: for summers um and I'm living in London in a

697
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: between around Europe. Uh. But then ultimately, you know, you

698
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: can't do that forever. And yes, like I'm not going

699
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: to pretend that like it was bad. It was. It

700
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: was a great time my life. It was frankly the

701
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: best or years I've ever had in my life period. Um,

702
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: but you can't do that forever. And I want to

703
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: become this island bum who's like sixty years old, still

704
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: running around and and and I also got very passionate

705
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: about telling this story and talking about these issues and

706
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: kind of bringing this to LFE. So that's why I

707
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,479
Speaker 1: wrote the book. I wrote it over the over sold

708
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: it to Random House in nineteen and then we're now

709
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: here in to come out. And that's what brought me

710
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: back to the US. Yeah. Well, and I really like

711
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: that you're actually telling this story because again, what we

712
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: always see and even what you've admitted to presenting while

713
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: your company was growing during the sale, all of that

714
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: stuff is just perfection and knowing what you're doing. And

715
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: I think that it's such an important conversation. Um that

716
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: like the money or the flashy life, and like celebrity

717
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: or whatever it is that you have it, it doesn't

718
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: take away from basic human needs. Right, So, like, no

719
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: matter what your life looks like on the outside, like

720
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: we all are still connected on that level. Like we

721
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: all have these same needs, we all have these these

722
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: same feelings, and we're not superheroes at the end of

723
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: the day, not not even close. And in fact, the

724
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: people that I think we like to believe our superheroes

725
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: are probably the most flawed of anybody. Yeah, you know,

726
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: the people that we that we publicly like look up

727
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: to are usually not not always right, but generally I

728
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: would say in my experience with such people, like they

729
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: have a higher level of of um, you know, kind

730
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: of imbalance in their in their personal lives. And it

731
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: makes sense write a lot of pressure lives, stress and

732
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: also having that brain that kind of keep with some

733
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: new stuff and to become that point zero one per

734
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: center of whatever it is you do to be the

735
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: best at your craft. You're you're not gonna table person,

736
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: You're just not. Yeah, So was it worth it? Like

737
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: if you could go back, would you just get a

738
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: normal life and you know, or get a normal job,

739
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: live a simple life, or do you think you would

740
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: do this again. Well, So to separate the questions, was

741
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: it worth it, Yes, but only because I know the result,

742
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: and so no, I wouldn't do it again. And so

743
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: that's that's a nuance because with with reading the story

744
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: to the end, it's worth it only because it worked, right,

745
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: But there were so many ways it couldn't have worked,

746
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 1: and if it hadn't worked, it would not have been worked.

747
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: So if I had to go back and do again,

748
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: and not knowing that, it would be the exact saying

749
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 1: like if you said, right, we're gonna teleport you back

750
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: ten years, try to do it again, but like variables

751
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: will change, I never would because it had to have

752
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: worked the way it did. Um. People even say like,

753
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: what would you do differently? And it's like, well, there

754
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: are things that fundamentally I would do differently, right, Like

755
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: I would probably have maintained our relationship and not gone

756
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: at this alone. I would have probably engaged for therapists.

757
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: I would have probably not become a degenerate party boy. Right, Like,

758
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: there's a number of things that I would have I

759
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: can say I do differently, But what if those didn't

760
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: lead to a different results? Right? What what if? What

761
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: if trying to be a you know, an an engaged boyfriend,

762
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: and what if um, you know, getting therapy that would

763
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 1: kind of slow you down and kind of eating route

764
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: would have dulled my spear right and and made me

765
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: not as effective at what I did. So I don't

766
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: know if that's true. I'm just saying that my particular story,

767
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: I can't say I would. I would want to do

768
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: differently because it achieved a result, But philosophically, like, yeah,

769
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: I mean I regret a lot of what happened, and

770
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: like I'm still paying some prices for it, right, I

771
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 1: still have ongoing mental issues from the breakdown. My memory

772
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: is shipped and other things happened, so you know, like,

773
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of reflection. But it's a

774
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: very nuance thing to say, Like, but I want the

775
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: normal life. No, I'm just not built that way. I

776
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: you know, I've known that for a very long time.

777
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: Do I want a more normal life now? Yeah? I

778
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: actually live more than life now. I live in Manhattan,

779
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: you know, still enjoy life, but like it is pretty relaxed.

780
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,959
Speaker 1: You know. I do my podcast, and I had my book,

781
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: and I my friends, and like life is not what

782
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: it was, and I never want to go back to it. Yeah. Well,

783
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: we've mentioned your podcast a couple of times and it's

784
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 1: how I found you. It's called the John row Is Show.

785
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: I was actually listening yesterday to the one that you

786
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: did with Kean Harold, who is amazing by the way

787
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: his I mean amazing, um. But at the end, you

788
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: guys were talking about the entrepreneur addiction. So what is

789
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: the entrepreneur addiction? And again I can't speak for anybody.

790
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: And one thing about prepreneurship is there hasn't been enough

791
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: studies done. There hasn't enough you know kind of work

792
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: done to truly understand it. So a lot of this

793
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: is conjectured. But you know, what you do find is that,

794
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, entreprene entrepreneurial mind is something that's biology created

795
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: or born with it, right, and it's kind of like

796
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: the athletic mind and body or the you know whatever,

797
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: Like there's a predisposition for this path. It doesn't mean

798
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: you're going to make it, but you're predisposte attracted to

799
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: the things that entrepreneurs need to be attracted to. So

800
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: you like risk, you like solving problems, and you like

801
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: being in charge, like all of those things. Are kind

802
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: of prey. And what I've observed is you see a

803
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: lot of people who get pretty addicted to it and

804
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: it becomes very much their identity because when they're when

805
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: there the CEO in the driver's seat, you know, you

806
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: do there are times that you just feel a bit

807
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: too cool, right, Like people want, you know, they want

808
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: to do stuff with you, they want to take you out,

809
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: they want to you know, going to interview. You're being

810
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: photographed and people know who you are, and like, I

811
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: got awesome, I can ask for an in for autographed thems.

812
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm like really, like, I'm the CEO of a tech company.

813
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean that was like somebody in Chicago

814
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: who would like seen me in some you know, newspaper.

815
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't like a big thing, but it's it's almost like,

816
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: as dumb as that sounds, you're kind of like, this

817
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: is this is cool, you know, And there are those

818
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: moments you get drawn to that. And then having been

819
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: on the other side where it totally goes away where

820
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: no one gave a shit about it, that I was

821
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: free to tell you that's better and I'm glad that

822
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: what I don't have is an addictive personality. I've I've

823
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: done a lot of things that you know, the you know,

824
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: the kind of the drug sex and rock and roll thing.

825
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: But I was never addicted to any of it. If

826
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: I was, if I truly had that personality, i'd be dead.

827
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: That's probably a long time ago. I did it all

828
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: because it kind of met met that I needed to

829
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 1: do to free my brain and whatever. So the same

830
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,439
Speaker 1: with entrepreneurship. I could totally see the draw going right

831
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: back in and doing it again. I want to be

832
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: important again, I want to be photographed again. I wanted

833
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: to you know, see those that those checks hitting my

834
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: bank account, like all of that was a draw. Thankfully

835
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: I didn't get caught up in it. But a lot

836
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: of people do, and a lot of serial entrepreneurs do.

837
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: And it's they do it forever, you know. They do it,

838
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: you know, far past where there's enjoyment, far past where

839
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: there then they have of value. They can't get richer,

840
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: they can't, you know, and they still need their families

841
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: behind it, the lives behind They still chase it forever.

842
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: And it's like you see it quite a bit. So

843
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: do you think you'll ever just retire? No? I mean,

844
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, I never do nothing. I just enjoy doing

845
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: things too much. But but with that said, like my

846
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: criteria for where my energy goes is far more specific

847
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: and kind of far higher bar. And so, like you know,

848
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: right now, I have you know, the book in the podcast.

849
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: That are two awesome projects. And I'm working on on

850
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: a on a screenplay kind of loosely based around the

851
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: book with some guys in Hollywood, which is really exciting.

852
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: That's another cool, kind of like fun creative project. I

853
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: am fearized start up that I would, you know, i'd

854
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: be in charge of, but like you know, I feel

855
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: one million times more capable to like balance all this

856
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: out and to do it without it becoming destructive. And

857
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 1: it's a startup that is with somebody who's a pretty

858
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: big figure in Hollywood, and it would be something that's

859
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: like not only enjoyable to do, but it's it's like

860
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: a really cool um premise. It would help people, it

861
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: would it would actually enhance the livelihoods, and so stuff

862
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: like that is what draws me to it these days.

863
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: But like, I'll never go back to what I was doing.

864
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: It will letter be all I want anymore. And like,

865
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: you know, I really do want a family, you know,

866
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: I want to meet somebody. I want to you know,

867
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: that's my next phase of my life that I'm really

868
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 1: am ready for, and especially when that happens, the balance

869
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: will all be that direction, Like I will never compromise that,

870
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: Like I've I've seen everything enough to know what that

871
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: takes to do right, and I'll never it caught back

872
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: up in that. So what are that I asked you

873
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: this earlier before we got on the phone, and I said,

874
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: I want to know the top three tips that you

875
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: would give all young entrepreneurs. And it sounds like, you know,

876
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: everyone's story is very different, and you seem to me

877
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: like you've become the person you've become because of your experiences.

878
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: So I would imagine it's a little difficult to tell

879
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: anyone to do any one step specifically. But could you

880
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: narrow it down to maybe some top things that you

881
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: know either you regret or that you know, just tips

882
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: you would give if you could go back, that you

883
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: would just do it differently. Yeah, I mean you just

884
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: hit the nail on the head. Is that I I

885
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: don't often give advice because I never felt like I

886
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: knew what I was doing, and I feel like advice

887
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 1: is one of those things that we do to kind

888
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: of sound and feel smart, you know, like like if

889
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: I'm eight of advice, that must mean I'm like and

890
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: I don't believe I think it's smart in anybody. So

891
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: but with that said, I think there are some things

892
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: like and this is my kind of why arranging advice.

893
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: The first one I would give to anybody who thinks

894
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: they want to do this is don't do it. And

895
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is is you have to

896
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: be so locked in and wanting to do this that

897
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: if someone like me saying don't do it, it's not

898
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: for you to be like, Okay, I guess I shouldn't

899
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: do it. You're not gonna go very far right. I

900
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: wrote this article on medium that got a lot of traction.

901
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: It was called give me thirty minutes and I will

902
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: kill your entrepreneurial dream. And what I wrote is people

903
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: call me all the time. People you know, I love

904
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: talking to people who have ideas or whatever, and I

905
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: don't I don't sit there and like shoot the ideas down.

906
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: I just asked them all the hard questions that no

907
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: one's probably asked, and by the end of that call,

908
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: I would say five percent of the time they're like, Okay, yeah,

909
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this. And the reason I

910
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: enjoyed doing that is because if if this was really

911
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: like you're calling or your dream, no body in the

912
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: world is going to stop you, especially random dude on

913
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: the phone. But if I've talked to you out of

914
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: your quote unquote dream in thirty minutes, it's not a

915
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: dream and you're going to fail anyway. I just save

916
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,959
Speaker 1: you a bunch of time. So so kind of like

917
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: the tough love of like you really got to be

918
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: built for this before you go do it is kind

919
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: of number one um for the people that cross that chasm, right,

920
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: the people who are kind of say I'm gonna go

921
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: do this. You know. This is something that I've talked

922
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: a lot of my friends about who have have gone

923
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 1: down kind of the venture path is like, you can't

924
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: force anything that's the true. You can force it, but

925
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: you shouldn't force it. When it comes to ideas and startups. Um,

926
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: I forced Octa. I I brute forced that thing to work,

927
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 1: and that's what made it so difficult, Like this wasn't

928
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: this nice organically building thing. And I've realized now that

929
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: the best ideas in the world they have a tendency

930
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: to naturally start occurring and you you build this natural

931
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: momentum and you you're doing the right thing, and if

932
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: you have to force it too much, it's kind of

933
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: like the romantic relationship, right, like if you're just kind

934
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: of start working, if it's gonna be tough, absolutely, are

935
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,959
Speaker 1: you gonna have fights, Absolutely, They're gonna be challenges along

936
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: the way, absolutely, But like it's actually at the beginning.

937
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: If you're like kicking and screaming and you're like, you know,

938
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: fighting really and you're trying to force this thing together,

939
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: it's probably not the right relationship for you. And I

940
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: think that startups the exact same thing. Like if you

941
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: get an idea, you start sharing to people and people

942
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: get excited, and you meet this person and this thing

943
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: comes up and like all of a sudden, this you know,

944
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: and on these piece start forming in front of you.

945
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: You've got to know you've got something. So whereas if

946
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: you're just kicking and screaming to make people listening to

947
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 1: you and you're getting no momentum, there's probably a pretty

948
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 1: good reason for that um, which which I think goes

949
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: into number into advice number three, which is you gotta

950
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: be ready to kill ideas very fast, very freaking fast,

951
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: Like the moment that you have those indicators that this

952
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: is not the right thing, shoot that fucker dead and

953
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: move on to the next one. Like, do not get

954
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: caught up in it. Do not think that, you know,

955
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: like people just don't get it, you know, I just

956
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: need to keep working. It's like now people get it,

957
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, Like you know, you should see momentum pretty quickly.

958
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: If you're onto something, not instantly, you gotta put the

959
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: work in. But like, do not get to wed to

960
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: an idea. Ideas are worthless, completely worthless. What's what matters

961
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: is execution and and if and if you're not getting

962
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: that traction, that momentum, you're probably not going on the

963
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: white path. So either change it or kill it. How

964
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: do you not take it personal? Though? You know, I

965
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 1: think that that's something you have to be evolved into,

966
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: because especially in the early days, entrepreneurship is very personal. Right,

967
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: It's your idea, your baby. You hear that all the time.

968
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: This is my baby. And I remember thinking that. I

969
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: remember having certain early six nature as well, like I

970
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: had a familial or even like parental kind of like

971
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 1: attachment to my ideas and I failed every single time

972
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: because you you're not A business is not your baby.

973
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: And I wrote this in the book, The business is

974
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: like a big cold steel ball that you're pushing up

975
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: the hill of the entire time you're doing the business,

976
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: like this thing has no personality. This thing is not

977
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: your baby. And granted you'll of course have some personal

978
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 1: attach and I'm obviously being you know, overtly like dramatic

979
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: to make my point, but the notion is you need

980
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: to do whatever you need to do to make this

981
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: thing work. And if that means, like, if you're super

982
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: attached some idea as something the wrong one, you got

983
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: to kill it and do a new life here. And

984
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: someone tells your ideas like and it's a person that

985
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: you should listen to. You gotta listen to that and

986
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: not be like, oh, they just don't get it, you know,

987
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: like this person doesn't understand me. Like no, you know,

988
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: you need to be able to adapt very very quickly.

989
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: And the more attachment you have can really be destructive

990
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: for startups. Interesting. Well, the book is called How to

991
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: Get Rich and Die Trying. It's available for pre order

992
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: now in the link that I'm gonna put in this

993
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: podcast bio. It's out on September eight. The podcast is

994
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: called The John Rowan Show. Can you give us just

995
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: a couple of details about what kind of things you'll

996
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: be talking about? I know you do mostly interviews, but like,

997
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: what kind of people are you interviewing? Yeah? Yeah, definitely.

998
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: So the guests on the interview are all super successful people, right,

999
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: So these are the point that point with you're a

1000
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: one percent I talked about earlier of whatever their craft is,

1001
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: and so there's going to be athletes and musicians and

1002
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,959
Speaker 1: CEOs and everything else of the sort. And really we're

1003
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: having a discussion like you and I just had. I

1004
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: The only thing I asked with them is hyper honesty.

1005
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: We have no scripted, no questions. I want them to

1006
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: tell how it is. And so I only find guests

1007
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: who are kind of at that point of their life

1008
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: and career, but they can have that discussion, right, So

1009
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: we hit on all topics to tell crazy stories. But

1010
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: it's like this is this is raw, hyper honest discussion.

1011
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: And to me, that's how you learn. Right, if if

1012
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: somebody comes down just gives their fucking press like pr speech,

1013
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 1: there's something to learn there, right, they're just selling they're

1014
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: telling you what they think that you want to Here

1015
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 1: when a person can open up and everyone can't do

1016
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: this right, like, this is why we work very hard.

1017
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: I'm certain kind of guests like me, ten years ago,

1018
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't have done this. I couldn't have told my

1019
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: real ship because I was still acting that role. So

1020
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: I find people that are kind of at that point

1021
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: where they can come in and do this and have

1022
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: this real discussion. And to me, there's so much wisdom

1023
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: and insight to be gleaned from those chats. So so yeah,

1024
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: that's the that's the podcast. It's every Monday morning that

1025
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: comes out, and and yeah, it's been an absolute blast

1026
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: to do and every single discussion. When I finished with

1027
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: my my guest, I feel so empowered and so much

1028
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: more intelligent than I didn't we started the discussion because

1029
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: you're connecting, right, That's that's what we all want ultimately anyway,

1030
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: we want to and we want to learn, right, I

1031
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: always want to learn new thing. And if you if

1032
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: you give me some fucking business leadership book or some

1033
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: motivational speaker, I don't war I'm saying, right, I just

1034
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 1: learned how funderling they are. That's all that's all I learned.

1035
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: Whereas when you hear somebody who's like, you know, someone

1036
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: who's in saying the success will talk like properly raw

1037
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: about whatever their experience in life is, that's when, at

1038
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: least for me, that's when I really learned. I agree

1039
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 1: with that, John Roa, thank you so much for being here,

1040
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: and seriously thank you for your vulnerability and just the

1041
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: willingness to talk about the hard stuff. I really have

1042
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: enjoyed the podcast so far. I can't wait to hear

1043
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: what other conversations do you have? Tell people where else

1044
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: they can find you? Yeah, so um, we keep a

1045
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: social media account running just my name John Rolla j

1046
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,399
Speaker 1: H r o A UM. And then the podcast has

1047
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: its own show, our own handles, the John Rowa Show.

1048
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: The website is Rolla dot com r o a dot

1049
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: com that has all the good stuff and um. And

1050
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: then like you said that, the book A Practical Way

1051
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 1: to Get Rich and Diet Trying is for pre sale

1052
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: now and comes out in September eight, so so hopefully

1053
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: people pick that up. And I love to talk to

1054
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,399
Speaker 1: people out, you know, whatever they experience reading the book

1055
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: or questions they have, so um, I try to respond

1056
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: to like messages and m so like, do you get

1057
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: in touch? It does anything you guys want to speak about? UM,

1058
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: and obviously would love for you guys to listen to

1059
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: the podcast and UM and Kelly, I've been enjoying yours

1060
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 1: and so I appreciate you having on discussion and and yeah,

1061
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: I really do appreciate the opportunity. Well, thank you so

1062
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: much again, you guys, go check out genre the John

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00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: row A show. A Practical Way to Get Rich and

1064
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: die Trying. I think I've been saying how to get rich.

1065
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, but it's a practical way to get

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00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 1: rich and die trying. Definitely pre order that nonimal would

1067
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: you say it's a long title. If it is a

1068
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: long title, But I actually love it because it sucks

1069
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: you in because I was like, oh, a practical way

1070
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: to get rich? Perfect, oh and die trying? Okay, cool,

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00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: all right, John, thank you again, and thank you guys

1072
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 1: for listening.