1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week one question, two 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: elements and nine hundred million dollars, let's talk about the 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: problem with renewable energy. Don't worry, this is not our 4 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: climate denial episode. It's just that renewables are not always available. 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: The sun goes away, the wind dies down, but our 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: demand for energy never stops, and that mismatch is what 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: keeps our powagrid tied to coal and natural gas. And 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: so one solution is to fill batteries with wind and 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: solar power, but it's so expensive. Today's episode is about 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: a company trying to change that. Farm Energy started with 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: the goal of making a really cheap battery, one that 12 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: could replace a coal plant for a battery obsessive, it's 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: an exciting question forms only limitations or the laws of 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: science and money, and the startup seems to have found 15 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: a battery that can be that cheap. I saw it, 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: and the battery doesn't look like much. Matteo Haremio, the CEO, 17 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: and one of the five co founders, showed us different 18 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: prototypes and as we went down the line, the battery's 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: got cheaper and cheaper. Looking at that, well, I mean 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: when we're working on something that needs to be as 21 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: low cost as this battery needs to be. You can 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: put it to the eye test. Right, does it look expensive? Right? 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: Does it look expensive to produce the parts? Does it 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: look expensive to deploy? We are passing the eye test. 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: This does not look expensive and it works. I should 26 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: not have laughed, but it was shocking. While lithium ion 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: battery facilities, which is the battery that goes into smartphones 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: and electric cars, requires you to wear a hairnet and 29 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: a clean suit, this form battery was out in the 30 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: open and it just looked like bubbling in a plastic 31 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: milk pottery. From the side, you'll see oxygen bubbles fizzing 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: up from the bottom and accumulating, and then they're eventually 33 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: sort of just removed from the sound. That's Billy Woodford, 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: the chief technology officer, describing the iron air battery. What 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: I was seeing was rusting inaction form energies big innovation. 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: Rusting is a sign of iron slowly aging. It's iron 37 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: combining with oxygen and becoming iron oxide. It's not a 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: desirable reaction and it happens passively, but the chemical reaction 39 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: is actually releasing energy. Vary slowly. Form Energy has found 40 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: a way to speed up the reaction in a controlled 41 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: way and draw out the energy as electrons. When I 42 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: visited FORM, I went on a tour with two of 43 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: the co founders, Matteo, who you heard defending the battery's appearance, 44 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: and Billy Woodford, who's the chief technology officer. Then we 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: sat down to talk about the scale of the problem 46 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: that Form Energy is trying to solve, challenges of new 47 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: battery chemistry, and what goes into starting a company that 48 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: has attracted nearly nine hundred million dollars in investments. Matteo, 49 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. Thanks at great to be here. And 50 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: so Matteo, this is not your first battery company, what 51 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: is your story coming here? This is my third battery company. 52 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: And I've been in batteries almost twenty years now, and 53 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: I saw the impact that batteries could have and I 54 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: hoped one day would have when I first started working 55 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: on them in two thousand and four. So I can't 56 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: really explain it other than they've just captured my imagination 57 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: and I seem to have a wealth of curiosity about 58 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: batteries that I don't have for much else. But just 59 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: before FORM I was at Tessa for a number of 60 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: years and I started what became the Tessa Energy Effort there, 61 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: so the grid storage component of that business. And I left, 62 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: I started thinking about what does come next for energy 63 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: storage on the grid. The energy transition was very much 64 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: upon us then, and I felt like I could see 65 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: the direction that things were going to be going, and 66 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: it was clear that there was a whole an opportunity, 67 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: frankly in the broader space for the multi day type storage, 68 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: because that's what you need to be able to in 69 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: the end replace and retire all of the thermal generation 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: on the grid that coal in natural gas. And from 71 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: the beginning the goal was what kind of battery lets 72 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: you replace a coal plant. That's as simple as we 73 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: could sort of state the mission. What Matteo say is 74 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: about multi day storage is really about money. In principle, 75 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: you can use any battery to store any amount of 76 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: electricity you want, but it is currently uneconomical to use 77 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: lithiumine batteries to store any more than a few hours 78 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: worth of electricity. Form Energy's battery uses iron and air, 79 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: and that means it can be one seventh the price 80 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: of today's lithiumine batteries that would make it cheap enough 81 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: to build a huge trees for storing multiple days worth 82 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: of solar and wind power, which could eliminate the use 83 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: of most fossil fuel power plots. We did not start 84 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: with iron air as the chemistry. We were looking at 85 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: other options simultaneously to that one. It was one of 86 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: the earliest contenders that we could think of, but we 87 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: really started with that problem statement, not with the technology 88 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: in hand that we were sure would We were sort 89 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: of force fit into the market. And the other major 90 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: bet that we made was that this would become relevant 91 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: in a timeframe that was near enough. Right, So, what 92 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: was the timeframe that you had in mind? You, given 93 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: you've worked in a couple of battery companies before this, 94 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: you know when it came to form, how long did 95 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: you think it's going to take to build this iron 96 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: air battery? Well, my assumption was ten years. That's how 97 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: long any hardware takes to really make an impact at scale. 98 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: And we are doing this because of impact, not because 99 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: we want to be able to show you prove that 100 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,239 Speaker 1: the chemistry works. That's quite trivial. In fact, an impacts 101 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: of course that we manufacture at scale and that we 102 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: deploy at scale, So that was a time scale that 103 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: we approached. I will say, however, that the market moved 104 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: faster than I think any of us anticipated. We thought 105 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: it would be relevant in a ten year time scale, 106 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: but looking at just how fast it's moved over the 107 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: first five years of our existence has been validating and 108 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: it's only accelerating. And how are you doing on a 109 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: ten year timeline of making the battery a commercial product? 110 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: We are on schedule. In fact, if anything, we're a 111 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: bit ahead of schedule. We have been lucky. There's always 112 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: a certain amount of luck anytime you're trying something brand new, 113 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: and we have been fortunate to turn over a couple 114 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: of cards that have come up the way that we 115 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: hoped that it would. On the other hand, you make 116 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: your own luck and doesn't happen by accident that you 117 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: make a lot of linear progress. But the other reason 118 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: that we're able to do that is on the market 119 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: side of things, we understood what success looked like. We 120 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: didn't wonder if a certain combination of specifications would succeed 121 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: in the market, and that's because of the investment that 122 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: we made very early on in the analytics, and this 123 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: is thanks to our co founder Marco Ferrara. The functionality 124 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: that he built in the models allowed us to really 125 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: understand those trade offs and be very precise about how 126 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: to make them, so that when billion team are in 127 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: the lab working with the chemistry, they know how one 128 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: dollar of capex trades off and the curve on which 129 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: it lies with one point of round trip efficiency. That's 130 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: a lot of jargon. What Mattheo is saying is that 131 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: whether a battery succeeds commercially or not depends on its 132 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: upfront cost, also known as capital expenditure or capex. It's 133 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: why Marco puts so much care into spreadsheets that model 134 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: how changes that form makes to its battery affect its price. 135 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: Another factor that plays a role in the battery's success 136 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: is so called round trip efficiency, which is simply how 137 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: much electricity you get back from the battery for every 138 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: unit of energy you put in. You may think that 139 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: you should get all of it back one hundred percent 140 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: round trip efficiency, but the laws of physics and chemistry 141 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: do not allow that. There will always be some losses. 142 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: If the losses are like twenty five percent, then the 143 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: cost of running the battery increases quite a lot. If 144 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: the losses are less than ten percent, then it's a 145 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: much more manageable situation. Okay, So let's look at the 146 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: Form battery, which is a weird battery because of what 147 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: we know of batteries as these highly specialized chemicals doing 148 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: very specific things like hurdling an electric car at one 149 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: hundred miles per hour. The form battery cannot do that. 150 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: To be clear, it could, it would be a very 151 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: poor choice. All batteries have trade offs, and the trick 152 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: is to pick for a given chemistry the right application 153 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't care about the things that it's not good at, right, 154 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: and so iron air batteries are not particularly suited. In fact, 155 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: they're not at all suited for motive applications moving things around, 156 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: but they are very well suited to this multi day 157 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: intermittency problem on the grid that we're solving. All right, 158 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: So describe this battery. So Form is commercializing an iron 159 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: air battery, and it is very much what it sounds like. 160 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: We are rusting and unrusting iron in a battery. Humans 161 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: are very familiar with the fact that iron rusts. Right. 162 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: We had a whole age named after a period where 163 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: humans were working with iron about three thousand years ago, 164 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: and so we've learned a lot about how iron rusts, 165 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: and that is the whole world of corrosion science, right, 166 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: how do we prevent iron from rusting? How do we 167 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: make sure that those bridges stay up for a long time, 168 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: And what we are commercializing is that reaction and then 169 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: also in reverse, So how do we control that reaction 170 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: and how do we get it to perform in a 171 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: battery to the highest possible level of performance at the 172 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: lowest possible cost. So that's really the task that we 173 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: have been working on for the last five years. A 174 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: reversible rust battery. I'd assume you have a pressure piece 175 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: of fine you leave it out in the open, It's 176 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: going to take months before it becomes rust, or at 177 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: least gets a layer of rust outside which stops the 178 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: rest of the iron underneath it from becoming rust. Your 179 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: battery will do that much much faster. That's correct, And 180 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: the idea of the rusting happening on the surface is 181 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things that we have figured out 182 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: how to deal with. It does take a long time 183 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: if you just let it happen on its own as 184 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: a reaction. It's a very actively driven reaction that we 185 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: have within the cell, so we know how to drive 186 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: that reaction under the conditions that we are providing to 187 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: get the speed of this reaction both on charge and discharge, 188 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: so that it's suitable for this multi day application. We 189 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: do not have months to wait for that oxidization to 190 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: just sort of happen naturally, so it's very much a 191 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: controlled reaction that we're driving. When people think of iron rusting, 192 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: they don't really think about energy. So where is energy 193 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: coming into all of this. Yeah, so when we talk 194 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: about energy, we are talking about electrons. Right, this is 195 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: a battery. After all, people know something about batteries. They 196 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: probably have heard of lithium ion batteries, and indeed that 197 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: is the name because there is an ion of lithium 198 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: that in fact is going back and forth from the 199 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: anode to the cathode, and that is what provides that charge. 200 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: Right when electron is either given up or it's given back, 201 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: the lithium ion is the one that is conveying that 202 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: charge for us. There's no iron ion that's going back 203 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: and forth. It's a hydroxide. So this is a combination 204 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: between hydrogen and oxygen, and that is the molecule that 205 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: is doing the work of either accepting or giving up 206 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: the electron. So you're right, iron in the wild gives 207 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: up it's electron for free. Essentially it goes somewhere else, right, 208 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: And the trick is that we capture that electron in 209 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: this liquid environment where this hydroxide ion can do the 210 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: work that we needed to do. So it's sort of 211 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: what just happened, is Matteo, after finishing the explanation, looked 212 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: Billy to confirm that he got it right. But of 213 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: course I always check with Billy. So, Billy, you're the 214 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: chief technology officer here at form Energy, there's a different 215 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: way to explain this specific reaction. What is your best explanation? Sure? 216 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: So the analogy here is the rusting reaction, and that 217 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: reaction is actually practiced intentionally in handwarmers. So these small 218 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: pocket held devices that you use when it's very cold 219 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: outside you want to keep your blood circulating into your fingertips, 220 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: and those are actually full of fine iron powder that 221 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: is rusting and it's rusting very slowly and that's generating heat. 222 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: And so the energy of the rusting reaction in that 223 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: case is going into heat in our battery because we 224 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: separate that and drive it electrochemically rather than just chemically. 225 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: We can capture that energy has electricity. And I know 226 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: that because in the very early days of form some 227 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: of the very first iron powders that we tested I 228 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: sourced by buying a bunch of handwarmers and cutting them open. 229 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: That's I mean, that's how you build a billion dollar 230 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: battery company. It starts with a single step. As an 231 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: example of that, when they were first figuring out how 232 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: to move around direct reduced iron, which is what's used 233 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: for electric arc for and steel production, and they didn't 234 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: realize just how quickly this would oxize. There was a 235 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: ship that had four hundred thousand tons roughly of DRI 236 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: and then started to heat up because it's a giant handwarmer. 237 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: And once that started to heat up, there was no 238 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: stopping it and they had to sink the ship. The 239 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: reaction is exacerbated by saltwater. So you know that if 240 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: you have salty roads, that causes a cart to rust 241 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: more rapidly. The same thing is true, so the salt 242 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: in ocean water caused the rusting reaction to be accelerated. 243 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: This took place in two thousand and three in the 244 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: Indian Ocean, just east of Madagascar. The ship heated up 245 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: to three hundred degrees celsius, and understandably, the structures began 246 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: to fail. Everyone who was on the ship was evacuated 247 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: and got off. Okay, Billy, how did you get to 248 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: be doing this? I know the handwarmers were involved, but 249 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: I assume there's more that you had to put in 250 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: to get this job. So I grew up in northern Pennsylvania. 251 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: I studied material science at Penn State. As an undergraduate, 252 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: I had an opportunity to do an internship where I 253 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: worked on the development of a battery component, and that 254 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,359 Speaker 1: was really where I first got excited and interested in batteries. 255 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: I came for the science and I stayed for the mission. 256 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: So I got interested in batteries because of the technical 257 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: problems inside of them, and then through my PhD, I 258 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: really came to realize how impactful batteries could be on 259 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: climate and on energy. What are the technical challenges that 260 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: have kept you going? Yeah, so it's a simple reaction 261 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: in principle, but of course the devil is always in 262 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: the details. Many of the challenges relate to controlling that reaction, 263 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: so making it be mechanically stable, you know, if you 264 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: of a car rust that can mechanically detach. That has 265 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: been one of the challenges and one of the puzzles 266 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: that we've had to sort through. How do you design 267 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: that to be robust and durable and reproducible. Others are 268 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: the efficiency of the cell, So how do you have 269 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: a good high fraction of the energy that you put 270 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: into the battery come back out when you discharge it? 271 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: And it's one thing to make an iron air battery 272 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: that cycles, and it's another one entirely to design the 273 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: cell that is a scalable and low cost and that 274 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: is a critical and essential piece of the challenge. It 275 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: is fairly easy to make a terrible iron air battery. 276 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: It is very hard to make that chemistry perform at 277 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: its highest possible level at the lowest possible cost. And 278 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: you can only do it when you have people the 279 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: caliber of Billy and the team that we built here. 280 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: After the break, how the Inflation Reduction Act helps form 281 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: and when you might be able to drive by some 282 00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: form batteries yourself. What specifically does the Inflation Reduction Act 283 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: do for you as a company. Well, it's a seven 284 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: hundred page document, so it's hard to say that there's 285 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: one thing that it does. However, from a broad perspective, 286 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: the best thing that it probably does for us as 287 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: an individual company is it it very clearly identifies the 288 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: role that energy storage can, and to take a normative stance, 289 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: should have in this broader energy transition to a decarbonized system, 290 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: and in particular a decarbonized electric grid. And so there 291 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: are for example, take the investment tax credit for standalone storage. 292 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: This is something that the industry has been working on 293 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: for years to try and get past. This was a 294 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: benefit that was already there for solar and and the 295 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: storage industry wanted a storage to qualify for that same credit, 296 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: and so very unambiguously it's in the bill there. And 297 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: so that's a very clear signal that that storage is 298 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: intended to be very much alongside these other large scale 299 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: infrastructure type technologies being deployed in large volumes on the grid. 300 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: If it's possible, can you walk through how a tax 301 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: credit meant for storage would apply for a commercial project 302 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: that you will be building. Sure, So, the baseline of 303 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: the investment tax credit is a thirty percent tax credit 304 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: on the capex value of a project, and there are 305 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: certain adders on top of that ten percent adders that 306 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: come in for domestic content or for the location of 307 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: that asset if it's in a disadvantage community or economic 308 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: development community for example. There's also adders for the owners 309 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: in the case that they are a nonprofit for example. 310 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: So it takes the effective cost to the buyer down 311 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: by as much as two thirds potentially. That's amazing. Yeah, 312 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: it is industrial policy written into the tax code for sure. 313 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: When will you build your first commercial project? Our first 314 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: commercial projects will start to be deployed with our partners 315 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: towards the end of twenty twenty four. And that's also 316 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: the pace at which this industry moves. You can't turn 317 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: large volumes of infrastructure on overnight. In December, FORM announced 318 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: that it will build a seven hundred and sixty million 319 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: dollar factory in West Virginia to make its batteries. That 320 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: site will start manufacturing the batteries in twenty twenty four. 321 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: This is a critical step informs ten year timeline of 322 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: making the battery affordable for its customers. Power companies looking 323 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: to eliminate the use of coal and gas. So our 324 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: relationships with utilities go back to even before we've formally 325 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: founded the company, when we were just talking about ideas 326 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: and talking about that kind of storage it could replace 327 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: a coal plant, and really working on on what that 328 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: could mean with the utilities so that this is not 329 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: something new to them, that we understood, the value, that 330 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: we understood the key drivers for their participation in the 331 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: energy transition and storage within that. Now, let's talk about 332 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: the battery and its application on the grid. What would 333 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: it look like when you do put one of these 334 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: on the grid, Like, somebody's driving past one of the 335 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: farm energy battery application, what is it going to look 336 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: like to them? It will look like shipping containers sitting 337 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: in a field. That's really what it will look like. 338 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: Not exactly. Sort of a charismatic megafauna power project, if 339 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: you will, But in order to get to the cost 340 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: targets that we're going after, it sort of can't afford 341 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: to look like much. Now most people know of Tesla 342 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: as an electric car company. Why did you move away 343 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: from company that does that to something that is working 344 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: to help the grid? Well, I was never a car 345 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: guy in the beginning. I'm not somebody who turns wrenches 346 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: underhoods in my off time. In fact, I think we 347 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: should try and do with fewer cars in the world, 348 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: if I'm allowed to say that out loud. Now, Tesla 349 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: is a wonderful place and I really enjoyed my time there, 350 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: But the car was not why I went there. The 351 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: power train was why I went to Tesla. That was 352 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: what was compelling to me. Tesla at the time was 353 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: the only company that I could find that had all 354 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: the pieces that were necessary to succeed putting lithium ion 355 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: on the grid. And I had already been working in 356 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,479 Speaker 1: the grid entergy storage business for about five years at 357 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: that point, and very clearly the next wave would be 358 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: lithium I and this was two thousand and nine. That 359 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: was as clear as day to me. But to be successful, 360 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: you can't just buy a lithium ion cell and slap 361 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: it on the grid. That simply not how it works. 362 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: You do need to make a safe, controllable, robust system, 363 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: and Tesla, because of the cars, of course, had already 364 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: designed one. Now it happened to be in a mobile application, 365 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: but it wasn't hard for me, and it wasn't hard 366 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: for JB. Stravel, one of the co founders my boss 367 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: CTO at Tesla at the time, to see that same thing. 368 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: And that was essentially my night job for the first 369 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 1: four years that I was at the company. For five 370 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: years I was at the company, but it was in 371 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: many ways my passion. That's that's why I was there 372 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: at Tesla. You had a pretty good job, you left 373 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: that and came to Form. Probably have a better job now, 374 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: But it's more complicated than that, right, Yeah, Actually you 375 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: sound a little bit like my parents. I left a 376 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: perfectly good job. Why would I do that. I was 377 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: fortunate that I was able to leave that job. For me, 378 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: that was long enough, seven and a half years of Tesla. 379 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: I was ready for a new challenge. The company changed 380 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: a lot while I was there, so did I. Of course. 381 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: We went from three hundred people to about thirty thousand 382 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: people over that time period, and that's just a very 383 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: different place. And I really like working on the earlier 384 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: stage stuff, and so that was sort of the main 385 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: reason why why for me, it was it was a 386 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: good time to leave Kendallly. There are people who were 387 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: going to be better at the job that I was 388 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: going to have to do going forward that I was too, 389 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: but going through the moment of transition the place that 390 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: I did that was a very fertile place. And that 391 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: was or now it's called Activate, it used to be 392 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: called Sycotron Road. My good friend Alan Ger was the 393 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: founder executive director there, and he basically invited me to 394 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: sort of hang out at Cyclajohn Road up there at 395 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: Lawrence Berkeley National Lad. I think officially I was an 396 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: entrepreneur in residence there. You be a part of that 397 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: community there. There's just a lot of great innovative thinking 398 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: that's happening there, and so it was sort of an 399 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: easy community to tap into and just give me sort 400 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: of a place to do that. And my pathway to 401 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: becoming part of the founding team at Forms started as 402 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: a thought experiment where I thought I would end up 403 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: discarding the notion that you could replace a coal plant 404 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: with a battery. I thought I was going to disprove 405 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: a thought rather than improve one. But somewhat to my 406 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: surprise and I guess happy outcome, that turned not not 407 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: to be the case. It's very rare that you hire 408 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: a chief executive officer of a startup who wants to 409 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: prove that the startups idea is not going to work. Well, 410 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a good way to go about it. Frankly, 411 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: you might as well try and prove that it's a 412 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: terrible idea first, rather than finding it out later on. 413 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: And I think that's part of the reason why the 414 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: founding team is To me it was so compelling, is 415 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: we all had that same mindset. None of us wanted 416 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: to work on something that we thought would not scale 417 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: for some fundamental reason, and we really kicked the ideas 418 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: around as hard as we possibly could. And you know, 419 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: that's how good science has done frankly right, You're trying 420 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: disprove the hypothesis. That's the scientific method. And so we 421 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: took that same approach. Since Mateo has been at three 422 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: different battery companies of very different sizes, I wanted to 423 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: know did he have any entrepreneurial advice? Do I have 424 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: an entrepreneurial advice? Be a part of a great founding team. 425 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: It's all about the people, it really is. And the 426 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: other is make sure that you are working on a 427 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: problem that matters. And one thing that we talk about 428 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: here at FORM is that we have built a great 429 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: team of problem solvers. But before we solve problems, we 430 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: have to be great problem finders. And I would say 431 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: that at Form we have found a great problem to 432 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: work on to solve, and that unlocks a lot of 433 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: things beyond it. And what I mean by that in part, 434 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: if you find the right problem to solve, it attracts 435 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: the right people and solving multi day storage. Coming up 436 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: with that battery that does allow you to replace our 437 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: coal plant is a big enough, hard enough compelling enough 438 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: problem that you get the best people who want to 439 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: work on that. That was a fascinating conversation. Thanks for 440 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: giving us the tour. Thanks very much, Thank you, Thanks 441 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: for coming in today. It's great to meet you. If 442 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about form energy and especially 443 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: the story of those handwarmers, you can check out a 444 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: link in the show notes to a feature story I wrote. 445 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Zero. If you 446 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and 447 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, Share it with 448 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: a friend or someone who has very cold hands. If 449 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: you've got a comment or question, send us an email 450 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: at Zeropod at Bloomberg dot net. You can also tweet 451 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: at me I am at Akshatrati. Zero's producer is Oscar 452 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: Boyd and senior producer is Christine Risco. Art music is 453 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: composed by Wonderley Special thanks to Ki up in the room. 454 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm Akshatrati back next week.