WEBVTT - Henry Wang on China's Role in the New Emerging World Order 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:16.400 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.920 Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Laws podcast. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.239 I'm joll Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.320 Tracy, you know, we talk all the time about US 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:32.720 China relations, multiple times a month, games for obvious reasons 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.239 we need. We usually get it from something resembling a 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.320 US perspective, not always, but I think it's a bit skewed. 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.960 Yeah, there is a geographic bias at play, for sure, 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:45.800 a linguistic one, yes, But you're right, there is always 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.159 a lot going on with US China relations, and especially recently. 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.360 Right So we're recording this on September sixteenth, and we 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.040 have Chinese and American officials gathering in I think it's 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.080 Madrid to talk trade, try to hammer out some sort 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.840 of deal on the tear. By the time this episode 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.800 comes out, maybe US China relations will have changed completely. 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:07.160 But somehow I doubt it. 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.560 There's going to be some new era of peace. Everything 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.399 is going to be solved, There's going to be no 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.440 more anxiety about trade, A TikTok deal will have been 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:20.200 made with the perfect algorithm that satisfies everyone everything. No, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.680 probably unlikely. Probably we are going to be talking about 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.560 some version of this for a long time. I don't 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.360 want say, you know, it's not like our perspectives are 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.200 just strictly US. You know, we talked to Cameron Johnson 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.280 who works in China regularly, so it's not none. But 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:35.440 we obviously have to change the mix up. 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.680 I admire your efforts at being on partisan. 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.280 Well cross border. You know, we have to still do 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:46.000 it via zoom obviously. But isn't this a long historic 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.320 trying to try like build build dialogue between multiple sides 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.360 and get multiple perspectives in the hopes of achieving something. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.279 All I'm gonna say is we need to go to Beijing, 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.640 mostly for the food, but also for in her US 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:01.640 China dialogue. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.880 The dream is that in twenty twenty six US Alive. 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.440 It's in Beijing. We're putting it out into the world 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.440 right now, and I hope that we can manifest it 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.400 into existence. Yes, all right, Well, I am really excited 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.320 to say that in these efforts, we really do have 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.440 the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Henry Wong. 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.480 Here's the founder and president for the Center for China 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.880 and Globalization. It's the largest independent think tank in China. 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.000 Someone perfectly placed to talk about all of these topics 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.560 from a Chinese perspective that we don't usually get. So Henry, 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.160 thank you so much for coming on the. 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.720 Podcast, and thank you, yeah that plessure. What is the. 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.600 Center for China and Globalization? Why did you found it? 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.280 What is its goal? And what is this independent think 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:44.399 tank that exists? 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:50.000 Yes, we actually founded since twenty two oh eight. Actually, yeah, 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.760 right after the Beijing Olympic. You know, at that time, 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.359 you know, when we watched the Beijing Olympic, the slogan 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.799 for the Olympics then was one word, one dream. So 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.360 I thought that that's actually it's a globalization and Chinie 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.919 actually embarked on a globalization year because I think Olympic, 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.600 Beijing Olympics in two eight was something that China's started 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.320 to read about globally. And so that's where we start 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.160 to found this think tank. At first, I have to 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.600 take all of the savings. You know, I was doing 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.600 all the business before, but we really want to study. 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.280 But I really have found this thing tank that can't 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:29.040 combine my experience in a government, business and academic and 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.000 also you know, since then, it's seventeen eighteen years now 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.520 and we become one of the top one hundred think 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.800 tank in the world, actually ranked four times in the 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.360 top hundred by the University of Pennsylvania Think Tank and 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.120 the Service Society Program. So, so CCG, you know, abbreviation 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:51.720 for Santa Ma China is a bridge. Is a communication platform, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:56.840 dialogue platform, and also it's a research platform for big issues, 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:02.920 policy issues regarding US and China, gobal governance, golobal economy, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.960 and of course goobal migration. So just to name a few. 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.920 But since then we've been doing Okay, we had about 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.960 over sixty seventy people, and we've been based in Beijing 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.520 and Honju and Guangdo, a few places in China, and 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.440 we've been very active. We're doing one hundred event a year. 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:26.159 We published a dozen books and multiple reports. So thank 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:27.599 you for asking that. 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.800 So you described the center as something of a bridge, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.280 and I was reading an Economist article from a couple 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.719 of years ago where you yourself are described as something 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:42.240 of a go between for technocratic government ministries, Chinese entrepreneurs, 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.960 and foreign embassies in Beijing. So my question is, how 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:47.760 busy have you been lately? 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.800 We are pretty busy. I just give you a few 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.320 examples for example, last week I was in sham and 0:04:54.440 --> 0:05:01.160 attending September eight the twenty five annual China Investment and 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:06.080 Business Forum and Export. There the Vice Premier Relifone, who 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.720 is now in Madrid talking with Scott Basin, was there 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.880 opening up that forum, and so I was speaking at 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.400 the keynote speaker at one of the Bricks Summit conference there. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:22.920 But also just Friday Santava, China hold another conference at 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:28.520 China International Service Export, you know, held in Beijing, where 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.360 there's another one hundred some countries come as well. And 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:38.520 yesterday we had our seventeen's mostly VIP launching, and we 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:44.200 have attend ambassadors from European, from Japan, from Turkey, from 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.680 many other countries, quite a member from European countries, and 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:52.320 just yesterday with fifty people I'm represented in China. We 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.960 have a lot of multinational global media. And also of 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:01.560 course last night I attend relevant riception the US members 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:05.240 a hold the reception were becoming the new Deputy Head 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.560 of the Mission, mister Gregg, and he actually made an 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.960 action speech there. He said, the China and the US 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.120 relation now rather than in the past. I mean, you know, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:16.840 I know that in the past we had a lot 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.719 of a strategic rivalry, but the new head of a 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.120 new deputy head of the US mission here in China 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:27.680 and said, now we should put a strategic stability. He's 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.680 not talking about strategic arriving now, So it's the strategical 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:35.080 stability you maintained a US channel relation and Secretary of 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.520 Rubio also said that in July. So it's very encouraging 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.679 to see the thing going on. But that's also shows 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.640 how busy we are meeting all the peoples and talking 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.240 to all the parties and the business too. 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.920 I get that various people might describe an ambition for stability, 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.320 it does not typically feel like it when I read 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.200 the headlines that this is a stable relationship for various reasons, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.039 particularly the headlines that come out of the Trump administration, 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.560 which strike me as volatile. Setting aside what you hear 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.960 from officials, whether at the embassy or the State Department. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.400 Does it feel like that is the trajectory, because it 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.040 certainly feels, especially over the last ten years, that when 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.640 I was younger, the relationship felt something more like stability, 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:24.160 and at these days it's much more about rivalry and 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.080 anxiety about potential conflict. 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.520 That's right, I agree with you. I think that basically 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:35.200 because of this deterioration since the first Trump administration in 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.720 twenty seventeen and now eight years later, the resion does 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.720 really go down quite a lot already. And because in 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:47.680 the twenty seventeen the National Security Committee of US has 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.360 put a strategic report and according China a strategic rivalry 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.440 number one, I mean before Russia. Actually, so we see that. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.000 Since then we had a trade war and the tire war. 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.040 But this second term, somehow I felt well in China 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.040 a bit more, you know, getting used to this kind 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.920 of tariff trade war. And China is also better prepared 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.520 than the other countries because we already experienced in the 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:18.560 first trum administration. So now I think also china economy 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.040 is second only to the US. The two countries are 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.280 too much independence among each other. And so, you know, 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.840 because geo politically, we are really looking very bad. And 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.760 then I think the consensus on post government is that 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.839 we need to look for some stability because we can't 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.600 change each other. We cannot wepe, you know, delete each other. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:43.480 We have to coexist and peacefully. And that's probably the 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.960 conclusion that we're getting there. And so we have to 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:51.040 seek a common ground and the coexisting even we are 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.760 having a lot of different views and ideas. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.240 So you mentioned just then the idea of the world's 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.960 two biggest economies being more dependent on each other. Perhaps 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.520 less so nowadays, but over I guess the decades of 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.880 the early two thousands, certainly they grew more dependent on 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.720 each other because of globalization. And this is something that 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.480 I wanted to ask you, which is, what exactly is 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:20.679 China's definition or understanding of globalization. And I ask this 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.160 because I think in the West it's sort of generally 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.240 thought of as this process of more countries trading with 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.920 each other and again becoming more economically dependent on each other. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.720 But there's also this sort of social element that's also 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.439 in there, because I think the assumption was always that 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.559 as countries trade more with each other, they're going to 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:46.000 start sharing, you know, values, whether those are political or social. 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:50.040 And I'm curious if globalization is thought of the same 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:50.800 way in China. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.680 Well, I think that in China because it was a 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.840 late commerce you know, for example, you see the globalization 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:05.840 in the nineteenth century, which is, you know, Britain invented 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.880 the steam power that led the industrial revolution, in nineteenth 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:15.800 century and twentieth century. American invented the internet, computers and 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.920 digital and US has led in the twentieth century. I 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.200 think twenty first century Chinese is also you know coming 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.880 up now for example on green power, Chinese leading on evs, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.360 on the solar panels and also the wind power and 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.600 other sea But in the compalization concept in the Chinese 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.760 mind is really more referred to the economic coorgalization because 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.160 because that's the benefit they're getting substantially. For example, eight 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.040 hundred million people has been lifted out of property since 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.640 China embraced opening up, basically embraced the globalization. And then 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.520 you can see China now is the largest trading nation 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.320 or major trading nation with one fifty seven countries around 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:02.520 the world. And also furthermore, China is have since the 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.640 opening up in the last forty seven years, China's about 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.600 almost ten million student study the board, I mean almost 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.880 half of that in the United States. So that means cooplization. 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:14.520 I think there's a. 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:19.320 Flow of people, flow of talent, flow of goods, you know, 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:25.280 in connect connectivities fast you know, stock marketing, exchange listed 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.560 with each other, and also business doing. You know, there 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:33.920 are seventy thousand US company operating in China generating seven 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:35.760 hundred billion revenues here in China. 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:41.720 And also you know Apple will make eighteen ninety percent 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.760 of his iPhone in China, and Tesla make fifty percent 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.240 of its evy cars in China, and one Apprecious about 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.679 sixty percent. That's a surprise from China. So I think 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.960 that's probably the colation in China felt the substantial benefit 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.720 probably for both Chinese and as American consumers. They are 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.679 less ideological, but they're more probably on an economic sense 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.959 that globalizations really bring them a lot of a good 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:12.280 and benefits. Example, since China John A. W Two, twenty eleven, 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.040 Chinese GENIP has gone up thirteen fourteen times. So that 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.760 really I think in the minds of Chinese when they 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:24.680 talk about globalization, they're really talking about joining economic orbalization 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.640 rather than the global securitization. They don't want to see 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.640 the Arcust, they don't want to see the Quad. They 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.240 don't want to see Camp David of Korea, Japan and 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.040 all those security or NATO move into Asia, that kind 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.800 of militarized globalization. They want to see more economic clublizations. 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.560 I'm a huge personal beneficiary of these students, of living 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.760 in the East Village, where there's been an absolute explosion 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.440 of amazing Chinese restaurants in my neighborhood of New York 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.640 City because there's so many students there. So I'm personally 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.360 very invested in this trend continuing. But let's talk a 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.520 little bit more about the security angle. You've actually written 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:21.160 somewhat recently that China could play some role in the eventual, 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.720 hopeful end of Russia's war with Ukraine. But we don't 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:30.120 tend to associate the Chinese government with playing an active 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.000 role in global conflicts not directly near the borders, including 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.440 Israel and Gaza, which we should talk about too. But 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.560 when it comes to something, you know, when it comes 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.959 to the Russia Ukraine war that tends to be focused 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.880 on the Europeans, the role that US will play. Is 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.800 there going to be a point in the near future 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.520 or is there something we're missing where China sees this 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.160 conflict that is far from its direct borders and wants 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.320 to play a more activist role in bringing peace or 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.200 is this something that is only associated with the sort 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.520 of American style, Western led style of globalization. 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.800 Well, I think that's probably now the world is. I 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.920 mean I was at Munich Security Conference kickoff meeting Berlin 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.360 earlier this year with the chairman of the Munich Secure Conference. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.360 The issue the report I was discussing. On that report 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:27.080 they called multipolarity. So we're getting into multipolar war. I mean, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.160 China suddenly become one part of of this multipolar war 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.960 and then you can see what happened in the Russian 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.960 Ukraine War. There it's getting nowhere. We had Alaska sammit. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.160 That's why I published up the Foreign Policy two days 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.760 before the Alaska SAMI. Basically, I suggest that if you 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.040 as a defense secretary, I heard him saying at the 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:53.080 Munich Security Conference that the one peace making troops coming 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.640 from European countries and non European countries. So what'll be 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:00.240 by now European countries? So I think that countries could 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.840 be these brick countries from China, India, Brazil, you know, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.800 South Africa or Turkey, whatever, bricks countries. But basically, again 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.040 you see that when Trump actually after the Alaska talking 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.160 to G seven at White House, put an actor talked 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.400 to President Ship before he's Alaska and talked to Lulah 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.440 talk to Moody and talk to the person of South 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:27.760 Africa after the Alaska So I think that I recently 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.960 seen macomb proposing that let's have twenty six European countries 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.280 troops placed into Ukraine. But that get very strong reaction 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.240 from Russia that Putting is that okay? For that is 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.120 the case that we regard it as a NATO violation 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.160 or something. So we see that the excuse for Putting 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.480 to start the war is because the Natal troops are 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.680 puaching Russian border. I mean, after three and a half years 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.760 fighted me, you have a NATO European troops there again, 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.760 I mean he will not probably ending that war easy. 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.600 So I think a more extra guarantee for this peace 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.840 making in addition to NATO, EU and and also US, 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.160 let's get China, India, Brazil, those the largest buyers of 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.800 Russian energy product and what else is really an extra 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.800 safe keeping for the for the border. And then by 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.760 having Chinese peace keeping force there, it will really you know, 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.440 make you know, make Russia difficult to violate that peace 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.720 border because you know, China has a lot of influence 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.160 on Russia. Same for India, same for Brazil. So so 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.880 I think that we're in there is this, We're stuck 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.160 in this. You know, Trump says, you know, he started 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.200 to sanction again. You're not going anywhere. But I think 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.480 by adding the China bricks element, we probably see a 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.680 more security piece that's going to happen. 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.680 M What does China actually think its role in the 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.440 world should be? And we talked about its role economically 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.760 and the idea of globalization, but setting aside economies when 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:02.280 it comes to geopolitical security, be what exactly does China 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:02.960 want to be? 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.760 Yes, well, thank you, I think. But basically China is 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:12.240 a large country, of course, but it's basically agriculture culture. 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.920 You know, it's basically you have a five thousand years history, 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.719 I interrupt the civilization. It based on agriculture economy. The 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.720 farmers cultivated along the Yan's River and the Yellow River, 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.639 and the confusion said, if your parents alive, don't travel 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.160 far away, and then you can only cultivate the land 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.080 for seasons that they can grow enough vegetables and wheat 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.520 and grain to feed yourself. So it's really that kind 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.959 of a culture cultivated the culture of China, and they 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.159 are not really a nation on horses or like Mongolias. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.600 They're going to expeditions or going to have a connalize 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.840 any places. In the mid Dallas there's a Marshall called 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:58.200 had a big expedition trips beyond almost to Africa. Also, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.320 you know as young country socialization, they never they never 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.440 stayed anywhere, they never occupy any places. They all returned 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.160 seven times. It was even earlier than Columbia. So you see, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.960 that is really the culture China has until now, for 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.280 the last forty years, China hasn't started any wars, stand 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.000 any soul journeywhere, or colonize any place, or invaded any 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.960 other country. So I think geopolitically, we had this big 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.680 parade on September third to commemorate in the Second World War. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.360 But I think China has produced enough deteriories so that 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.120 you know, probably if they are in any hot conflict, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.119 they have enough defenses to deter in that. So if 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:41.200 we cannot have a nuclear or hot war to mutually 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.560 assure destruction, then the only thing remains is peaceful competition 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.960 on the economy, on the soft power, on the culture, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.080 on the people to people exchanges. So I think China 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.840 wants to really see, let's have a level print field 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.600 and let's really compete on the economic China now is 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.320 having seventy percent of Go Go speed, the railway, five 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.720 gen networks of the world, out of the ten largest 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.879 container ports, several of them in China. China also has 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:16.000 thirteen million college graduate every year, and you know, they 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.720 have a lot of the things that they are doing 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.800 on their own and also on energy installation now They're 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.080 electricity consumption is two point five times of US, three 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.280 times of Europe now and in terms of green power, 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.679 China has produced a fifteen to sixteen million EV cars 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.560 total number will be thirty million, and they have a 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.520 sixteen million charges stations in China everywhere, you know, very 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.639 convenient to charge your EV carnal. So I think, you know, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.840 they want to public compete in those area rather than geopolitically. 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.919 So I think maybe if China can play some maintains 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.399 on peace keeping would be great because China is the 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.760 largest the peace keeping budget contributed to the UN. China 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.320 is the largest peace keeping sending force amount the P 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:04.680 five countries, so China can do more peacekeeping and also economically, 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.720 you know, China larned the money initiative about the ROW initiative, 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:14.160 China just did summit in Tangine where they is so Bank. 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:16.840 They have a bricks Bank, New Development Bank, so they're 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.880 doing all this kind of economic stuff. I think that's 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.800 how they view the world should be intertwined the more 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:27.960 economically business wise, rather than we are really divided according 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:33.040 to the ideological divided according to democracy versus autocracy, and 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.080 divided by you know this this east or West. So 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.080 there's many things. I think China is thinking a little differently. 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.520 You mentioned the United Nations, and there's sort of this 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.680 question about the relevant or the vitality of a lot 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:53.680 of these Western developed multilateral organizations wto being among them, 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.000 but you specifically in your vision, maybe China's vision, or 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.840 maybe there's distinct Is it's important to breathe new life 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:06.800 into these organizations or is there a new set of organizations, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.919 including some of the ones that China has set up itself, 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.200 whether it's the be r I, whether we're talking about 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:13.919 the Bricks, whether it talk about some of these others. 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.679 Is the future more okay? If we're going to have 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:20.640 this sort of new style of globalization, we actually genuinely 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:25.960 need new organizations rather than the husks of the organizations 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.520 that were sort of built out of the Western liberal order. 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.720 Absolutely, I think that's that's quite true. I have written 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.680 to Listen to Me, wrote the book about my dialogue 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.720 with grand Allison, the funding thing of Havard Coundedy School, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.600 which have become a very good seller in China now 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.440 also English wise. Basically, we find that in our dialogue 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.760 we talk about US China relations as con John tweens. 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.120 You know, we cannot separate each other. You know, if 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.640 we want to separate each other, we end up damage ourself. 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.199 So that's a given. So we should avoid the so 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:04.199 he hit his trap that Grandma isn't famously defined. But 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:05.919 also on the other hand, we should also avoid the 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:10.280 Kinderberger trap, which means that when new rising power starting 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:14.240 to catching up existing number one power, there's a vacuum 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.960 in the global public goods like when US was taking 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.280 place in UK, there's a lot of a missing linking points. 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.240 You know, we've got big recession in the in the thirties, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.439 nineteen thirties and things like that. So China actually is 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:30.960 US is now put a bit back on its policy. 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:33.639 Now it's become a mega you know, make me first, 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.880 make me great again, and rather than there's no country. Really, 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.120 it's looking at the gob of public goods. So that's 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.760 what China is now. China has not backed on a 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.640 climate change agreement. China strongly support that and China has 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:51.960 developed a very clime friendly environment now and we reach 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:55.040 cobon neutral and combon peak ahead of time. 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:59.600 But just to be clear, these legacy organizations, specifically like 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.800 the U, China feel like these are their bets that 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:06.720 China is intended to make, that these are going to 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:12.240 be important institutions or are they fading like many legacy institutions, 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.320 And that the sort of new more stable order that 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:17.280 you may envision doesn't have to be with a fresh 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.080 set of multilateral international organizations. 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.960 No. I think China is a strong support of existing 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:27.639 UN system, and as president, she just recently proposed the 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.000 Global Governance institu I mean on five point two or 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.280 three point he was emphasized the UN principal view and 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:38.440 chant of UN and also we can't help he has 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:42.560 improved and make it better, but we should not just restart. 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.200 But on the other hand, we see you also getting 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.960 quite a marginalized and there's a be awakening and for example, 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.240 China become a second largest donor to the UN budget 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:56.359 now close to you has almost no difference now and 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.480 also when US putting out of who, China committed the 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:05.280 five hundred million US dollars who and when you know 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.200 W two is marginal, China is working with your Europeans 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:11.320 to do that. But furthermore, I think China is still 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.200 the only public big country, one of the largest economies 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:18.199 still proposing economic corporations like a Belgium ROA initiative. For 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.080 the last twelve thirteen years, Chinese invest over one trillion 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:24.800 US dollars for three thousand projects. And also furthermore, China 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:29.000 has started the China Africa Economic Summit, China and Latin 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:32.439 American Economic SUMMI, China and US CEO Economic Summit, and 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:35.800 China Central Asia and China Arab Economic su So it's 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:40.239 all economy related. And furthermore, and while Persident Trump has 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:43.240