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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Laws podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm joll Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 2: Tracy, you know, we talk all the time about US

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Speaker 2: China relations, multiple times a month, games for obvious reasons

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Speaker 2: we need. We usually get it from something resembling a

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Speaker 2: US perspective, not always, but I think it's a bit skewed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a geographic bias at play, for sure,

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Speaker 3: a linguistic one, yes, But you're right, there is always

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Speaker 3: a lot going on with US China relations, and especially recently.

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Speaker 3: Right So we're recording this on September sixteenth, and we

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Speaker 3: have Chinese and American officials gathering in I think it's

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Speaker 3: Madrid to talk trade, try to hammer out some sort

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Speaker 3: of deal on the tear. By the time this episode

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Speaker 3: comes out, maybe US China relations will have changed completely.

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Speaker 3: But somehow I doubt it.

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Speaker 2: There's going to be some new era of peace. Everything

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Speaker 2: is going to be solved, There's going to be no

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Speaker 2: more anxiety about trade, A TikTok deal will have been

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Speaker 2: made with the perfect algorithm that satisfies everyone everything. No,

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Speaker 2: probably unlikely. Probably we are going to be talking about

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Speaker 2: some version of this for a long time. I don't

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Speaker 2: want say, you know, it's not like our perspectives are

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Speaker 2: just strictly US. You know, we talked to Cameron Johnson

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Speaker 2: who works in China regularly, so it's not none. But

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Speaker 2: we obviously have to change the mix up.

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Speaker 3: I admire your efforts at being on partisan.

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Speaker 2: Well cross border. You know, we have to still do

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Speaker 2: it via zoom obviously. But isn't this a long historic

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Speaker 2: trying to try like build build dialogue between multiple sides

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Speaker 2: and get multiple perspectives in the hopes of achieving something.

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Speaker 3: All I'm gonna say is we need to go to Beijing,

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Speaker 3: mostly for the food, but also for in her US

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Speaker 3: China dialogue.

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Speaker 2: The dream is that in twenty twenty six US Alive.

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Speaker 2: It's in Beijing. We're putting it out into the world

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Speaker 2: right now, and I hope that we can manifest it

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Speaker 2: into existence. Yes, all right, Well, I am really excited

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Speaker 2: to say that in these efforts, we really do have

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Speaker 2: the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Henry Wong.

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Speaker 2: Here's the founder and president for the Center for China

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Speaker 2: and Globalization. It's the largest independent think tank in China.

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Speaker 2: Someone perfectly placed to talk about all of these topics

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Speaker 2: from a Chinese perspective that we don't usually get. So Henry,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on the.

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Speaker 4: Podcast, and thank you, yeah that plessure. What is the.

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Speaker 2: Center for China and Globalization? Why did you found it?

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Speaker 2: What is its goal? And what is this independent think

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Speaker 2: tank that exists?

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Speaker 4: Yes, we actually founded since twenty two oh eight. Actually, yeah,

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Speaker 4: right after the Beijing Olympic. You know, at that time,

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Speaker 4: you know, when we watched the Beijing Olympic, the slogan

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Speaker 4: for the Olympics then was one word, one dream. So

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Speaker 4: I thought that that's actually it's a globalization and Chinie

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Speaker 4: actually embarked on a globalization year because I think Olympic,

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Speaker 4: Beijing Olympics in two eight was something that China's started

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Speaker 4: to read about globally. And so that's where we start

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Speaker 4: to found this think tank. At first, I have to

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Speaker 4: take all of the savings. You know, I was doing

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Speaker 4: all the business before, but we really want to study.

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Speaker 4: But I really have found this thing tank that can't

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Speaker 4: combine my experience in a government, business and academic and

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Speaker 4: also you know, since then, it's seventeen eighteen years now

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Speaker 4: and we become one of the top one hundred think

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Speaker 4: tank in the world, actually ranked four times in the

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Speaker 4: top hundred by the University of Pennsylvania Think Tank and

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Speaker 4: the Service Society Program. So, so CCG, you know, abbreviation

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Speaker 4: for Santa Ma China is a bridge. Is a communication platform,

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Speaker 4: dialogue platform, and also it's a research platform for big issues,

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Speaker 4: policy issues regarding US and China, gobal governance, golobal economy,

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Speaker 4: and of course goobal migration. So just to name a few.

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Speaker 4: But since then we've been doing Okay, we had about

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Speaker 4: over sixty seventy people, and we've been based in Beijing

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Speaker 4: and Honju and Guangdo, a few places in China, and

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Speaker 4: we've been very active. We're doing one hundred event a year.

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Speaker 4: We published a dozen books and multiple reports. So thank

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Speaker 4: you for asking that.

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Speaker 3: So you described the center as something of a bridge,

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Speaker 3: and I was reading an Economist article from a couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago where you yourself are described as something

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Speaker 3: of a go between for technocratic government ministries, Chinese entrepreneurs,

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Speaker 3: and foreign embassies in Beijing. So my question is, how

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Speaker 3: busy have you been lately?

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Speaker 4: We are pretty busy. I just give you a few

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Speaker 4: examples for example, last week I was in sham and

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Speaker 4: attending September eight the twenty five annual China Investment and

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Speaker 4: Business Forum and Export. There the Vice Premier Relifone, who

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Speaker 4: is now in Madrid talking with Scott Basin, was there

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Speaker 4: opening up that forum, and so I was speaking at

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Speaker 4: the keynote speaker at one of the Bricks Summit conference there.

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Speaker 4: But also just Friday Santava, China hold another conference at

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Speaker 4: China International Service Export, you know, held in Beijing, where

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Speaker 4: there's another one hundred some countries come as well. And

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Speaker 4: yesterday we had our seventeen's mostly VIP launching, and we

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Speaker 4: have attend ambassadors from European, from Japan, from Turkey, from

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Speaker 4: many other countries, quite a member from European countries, and

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Speaker 4: just yesterday with fifty people I'm represented in China. We

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Speaker 4: have a lot of multinational global media. And also of

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Speaker 4: course last night I attend relevant riception the US members

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Speaker 4: a hold the reception were becoming the new Deputy Head

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Speaker 4: of the Mission, mister Gregg, and he actually made an

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Speaker 4: action speech there. He said, the China and the US

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Speaker 4: relation now rather than in the past. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: I know that in the past we had a lot

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Speaker 4: of a strategic rivalry, but the new head of a

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Speaker 4: new deputy head of the US mission here in China

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Speaker 4: and said, now we should put a strategic stability. He's

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Speaker 4: not talking about strategic arriving now, So it's the strategical

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Speaker 4: stability you maintained a US channel relation and Secretary of

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Speaker 4: Rubio also said that in July. So it's very encouraging

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Speaker 4: to see the thing going on. But that's also shows

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Speaker 4: how busy we are meeting all the peoples and talking

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Speaker 4: to all the parties and the business too.

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Speaker 2: I get that various people might describe an ambition for stability,

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Speaker 2: it does not typically feel like it when I read

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Speaker 2: the headlines that this is a stable relationship for various reasons,

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Speaker 2: particularly the headlines that come out of the Trump administration,

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Speaker 2: which strike me as volatile. Setting aside what you hear

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Speaker 2: from officials, whether at the embassy or the State Department.

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Speaker 2: Does it feel like that is the trajectory, because it

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Speaker 2: certainly feels, especially over the last ten years, that when

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Speaker 2: I was younger, the relationship felt something more like stability,

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Speaker 2: and at these days it's much more about rivalry and

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Speaker 2: anxiety about potential conflict.

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Speaker 4: That's right, I agree with you. I think that basically

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Speaker 4: because of this deterioration since the first Trump administration in

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Speaker 4: twenty seventeen and now eight years later, the resion does

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Speaker 4: really go down quite a lot already. And because in

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Speaker 4: the twenty seventeen the National Security Committee of US has

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Speaker 4: put a strategic report and according China a strategic rivalry

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Speaker 4: number one, I mean before Russia. Actually, so we see that.

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Speaker 4: Since then we had a trade war and the tire war.

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Speaker 4: But this second term, somehow I felt well in China

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Speaker 4: a bit more, you know, getting used to this kind

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Speaker 4: of tariff trade war. And China is also better prepared

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Speaker 4: than the other countries because we already experienced in the

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Speaker 4: first trum administration. So now I think also china economy

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Speaker 4: is second only to the US. The two countries are

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Speaker 4: too much independence among each other. And so, you know,

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Speaker 4: because geo politically, we are really looking very bad. And

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Speaker 4: then I think the consensus on post government is that

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Speaker 4: we need to look for some stability because we can't

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Speaker 4: change each other. We cannot wepe, you know, delete each other.

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Speaker 4: We have to coexist and peacefully. And that's probably the

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Speaker 4: conclusion that we're getting there. And so we have to

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Speaker 4: seek a common ground and the coexisting even we are

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Speaker 4: having a lot of different views and ideas.

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Speaker 3: So you mentioned just then the idea of the world's

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Speaker 3: two biggest economies being more dependent on each other. Perhaps

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Speaker 3: less so nowadays, but over I guess the decades of

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Speaker 3: the early two thousands, certainly they grew more dependent on

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Speaker 3: each other because of globalization. And this is something that

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Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you, which is, what exactly is

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Speaker 3: China's definition or understanding of globalization. And I ask this

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Speaker 3: because I think in the West it's sort of generally

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Speaker 3: thought of as this process of more countries trading with

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Speaker 3: each other and again becoming more economically dependent on each other.

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Speaker 3: But there's also this sort of social element that's also

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Speaker 3: in there, because I think the assumption was always that

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Speaker 3: as countries trade more with each other, they're going to

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Speaker 3: start sharing, you know, values, whether those are political or social.

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Speaker 3: And I'm curious if globalization is thought of the same

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Speaker 3: way in China.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that in China because it was a

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Speaker 4: late commerce you know, for example, you see the globalization

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Speaker 4: in the nineteenth century, which is, you know, Britain invented

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Speaker 4: the steam power that led the industrial revolution, in nineteenth

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Speaker 4: century and twentieth century. American invented the internet, computers and

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Speaker 4: digital and US has led in the twentieth century. I

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Speaker 4: think twenty first century Chinese is also you know coming

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Speaker 4: up now for example on green power, Chinese leading on evs,

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Speaker 4: on the solar panels and also the wind power and

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Speaker 4: other sea But in the compalization concept in the Chinese

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Speaker 4: mind is really more referred to the economic coorgalization because

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Speaker 4: because that's the benefit they're getting substantially. For example, eight

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Speaker 4: hundred million people has been lifted out of property since

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Speaker 4: China embraced opening up, basically embraced the globalization. And then

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Speaker 4: you can see China now is the largest trading nation

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Speaker 4: or major trading nation with one fifty seven countries around

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Speaker 4: the world. And also furthermore, China is have since the

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Speaker 4: opening up in the last forty seven years, China's about

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Speaker 4: almost ten million student study the board, I mean almost

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Speaker 4: half of that in the United States. So that means cooplization.

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Speaker 4: I think there's a.

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Speaker 5: Flow of people, flow of talent, flow of goods, you know,

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Speaker 5: in connect connectivities fast you know, stock marketing, exchange listed

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Speaker 5: with each other, and also business doing. You know, there

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Speaker 5: are seventy thousand US company operating in China generating seven

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Speaker 5: hundred billion revenues here in China.

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Speaker 4: And also you know Apple will make eighteen ninety percent

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Speaker 4: of his iPhone in China, and Tesla make fifty percent

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Speaker 4: of its evy cars in China, and one Apprecious about

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Speaker 4: sixty percent. That's a surprise from China. So I think

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Speaker 4: that's probably the colation in China felt the substantial benefit

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Speaker 4: probably for both Chinese and as American consumers. They are

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Speaker 4: less ideological, but they're more probably on an economic sense

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Speaker 4: that globalizations really bring them a lot of a good

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Speaker 4: and benefits. Example, since China John A. W Two, twenty eleven,

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Speaker 4: Chinese GENIP has gone up thirteen fourteen times. So that

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Speaker 4: really I think in the minds of Chinese when they

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Speaker 4: talk about globalization, they're really talking about joining economic orbalization

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Speaker 4: rather than the global securitization. They don't want to see

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Speaker 4: the Arcust, they don't want to see the Quad. They

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Speaker 4: don't want to see Camp David of Korea, Japan and

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Speaker 4: all those security or NATO move into Asia, that kind

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Speaker 4: of militarized globalization. They want to see more economic clublizations.

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Speaker 2: I'm a huge personal beneficiary of these students, of living

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Speaker 2: in the East Village, where there's been an absolute explosion

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Speaker 2: of amazing Chinese restaurants in my neighborhood of New York

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Speaker 2: City because there's so many students there. So I'm personally

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Speaker 2: very invested in this trend continuing. But let's talk a

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Speaker 2: little bit more about the security angle. You've actually written

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Speaker 2: somewhat recently that China could play some role in the eventual,

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Speaker 2: hopeful end of Russia's war with Ukraine. But we don't

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Speaker 2: tend to associate the Chinese government with playing an active

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Speaker 2: role in global conflicts not directly near the borders, including

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Speaker 2: Israel and Gaza, which we should talk about too. But

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Speaker 2: when it comes to something, you know, when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the Russia Ukraine war that tends to be focused

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Speaker 2: on the Europeans, the role that US will play. Is

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Speaker 2: there going to be a point in the near future

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Speaker 2: or is there something we're missing where China sees this

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Speaker 2: conflict that is far from its direct borders and wants

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Speaker 2: to play a more activist role in bringing peace or

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Speaker 2: is this something that is only associated with the sort

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Speaker 2: of American style, Western led style of globalization.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that's probably now the world is. I

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Speaker 4: mean I was at Munich Security Conference kickoff meeting Berlin

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Speaker 4: earlier this year with the chairman of the Munich Secure Conference.

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Speaker 4: The issue the report I was discussing. On that report

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Speaker 4: they called multipolarity. So we're getting into multipolar war. I mean,

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Speaker 4: China suddenly become one part of of this multipolar war

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Speaker 4: and then you can see what happened in the Russian

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Speaker 4: Ukraine War. There it's getting nowhere. We had Alaska sammit.

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Speaker 4: That's why I published up the Foreign Policy two days

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Speaker 4: before the Alaska SAMI. Basically, I suggest that if you

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Speaker 4: as a defense secretary, I heard him saying at the

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Speaker 4: Munich Security Conference that the one peace making troops coming

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Speaker 4: from European countries and non European countries. So what'll be

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Speaker 4: by now European countries? So I think that countries could

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Speaker 4: be these brick countries from China, India, Brazil, you know,

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Speaker 4: South Africa or Turkey, whatever, bricks countries. But basically, again

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Speaker 4: you see that when Trump actually after the Alaska talking

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Speaker 4: to G seven at White House, put an actor talked

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Speaker 4: to President Ship before he's Alaska and talked to Lulah

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Speaker 4: talk to Moody and talk to the person of South

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Speaker 4: Africa after the Alaska So I think that I recently

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Speaker 4: seen macomb proposing that let's have twenty six European countries

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Speaker 4: troops placed into Ukraine. But that get very strong reaction

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Speaker 4: from Russia that Putting is that okay? For that is

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Speaker 4: the case that we regard it as a NATO violation

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Speaker 4: or something. So we see that the excuse for Putting

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Speaker 4: to start the war is because the Natal troops are

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Speaker 4: puaching Russian border. I mean, after three and a half years

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Speaker 4: fighted me, you have a NATO European troops there again,

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Speaker 4: I mean he will not probably ending that war easy.

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Speaker 4: So I think a more extra guarantee for this peace

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Speaker 4: making in addition to NATO, EU and and also US,

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Speaker 4: let's get China, India, Brazil, those the largest buyers of

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Speaker 4: Russian energy product and what else is really an extra

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Speaker 4: safe keeping for the for the border. And then by

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Speaker 4: having Chinese peace keeping force there, it will really you know,

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Speaker 4: make you know, make Russia difficult to violate that peace

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Speaker 4: border because you know, China has a lot of influence

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Speaker 4: on Russia. Same for India, same for Brazil. So so

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Speaker 4: I think that we're in there is this, We're stuck

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Speaker 4: in this. You know, Trump says, you know, he started

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Speaker 4: to sanction again. You're not going anywhere. But I think

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Speaker 4: by adding the China bricks element, we probably see a

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Speaker 4: more security piece that's going to happen.

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Speaker 3: M What does China actually think its role in the

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Speaker 3: world should be? And we talked about its role economically

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Speaker 3: and the idea of globalization, but setting aside economies when

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Speaker 3: it comes to geopolitical security, be what exactly does China

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Speaker 3: want to be?

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Speaker 4: Yes, well, thank you, I think. But basically China is

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Speaker 4: a large country, of course, but it's basically agriculture culture.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's basically you have a five thousand years history,

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Speaker 4: I interrupt the civilization. It based on agriculture economy. The

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Speaker 4: farmers cultivated along the Yan's River and the Yellow River,

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Speaker 4: and the confusion said, if your parents alive, don't travel

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Speaker 4: far away, and then you can only cultivate the land

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Speaker 4: for seasons that they can grow enough vegetables and wheat

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Speaker 4: and grain to feed yourself. So it's really that kind

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Speaker 4: of a culture cultivated the culture of China, and they

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Speaker 4: are not really a nation on horses or like Mongolias.

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Speaker 4: They're going to expeditions or going to have a connalize

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Speaker 4: any places. In the mid Dallas there's a Marshall called

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Speaker 4: had a big expedition trips beyond almost to Africa. Also,

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Speaker 4: you know as young country socialization, they never they never

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Speaker 4: stayed anywhere, they never occupy any places. They all returned

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Speaker 4: seven times. It was even earlier than Columbia. So you see,

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Speaker 4: that is really the culture China has until now, for

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Speaker 4: the last forty years, China hasn't started any wars, stand

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Speaker 4: any soul journeywhere, or colonize any place, or invaded any

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Speaker 4: other country. So I think geopolitically, we had this big

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Speaker 4: parade on September third to commemorate in the Second World War.

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Speaker 4: But I think China has produced enough deteriories so that

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Speaker 4: you know, probably if they are in any hot conflict,

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Speaker 4: they have enough defenses to deter in that. So if

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Speaker 4: we cannot have a nuclear or hot war to mutually

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Speaker 4: assure destruction, then the only thing remains is peaceful competition

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Speaker 4: on the economy, on the soft power, on the culture,

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Speaker 4: on the people to people exchanges. So I think China

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Speaker 4: wants to really see, let's have a level print field

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Speaker 4: and let's really compete on the economic China now is

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Speaker 4: having seventy percent of Go Go speed, the railway, five

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Speaker 4: gen networks of the world, out of the ten largest

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Speaker 4: container ports, several of them in China. China also has

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Speaker 4: thirteen million college graduate every year, and you know, they

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Speaker 4: have a lot of the things that they are doing

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Speaker 4: on their own and also on energy installation now They're

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Speaker 4: electricity consumption is two point five times of US, three

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Speaker 4: times of Europe now and in terms of green power,

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Speaker 4: China has produced a fifteen to sixteen million EV cars

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Speaker 4: total number will be thirty million, and they have a

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Speaker 4: sixteen million charges stations in China everywhere, you know, very

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Speaker 4: convenient to charge your EV carnal. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: they want to public compete in those area rather than geopolitically.

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Speaker 4: So I think maybe if China can play some maintains

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Speaker 4: on peace keeping would be great because China is the

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Speaker 4: largest the peace keeping budget contributed to the UN. China

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Speaker 4: is the largest peace keeping sending force amount the P

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Speaker 4: five countries, so China can do more peacekeeping and also economically,

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Speaker 4: you know, China larned the money initiative about the ROW initiative,

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Speaker 4: China just did summit in Tangine where they is so Bank.

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Speaker 4: They have a bricks Bank, New Development Bank, so they're

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Speaker 4: doing all this kind of economic stuff. I think that's

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Speaker 4: how they view the world should be intertwined the more

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Speaker 4: economically business wise, rather than we are really divided according

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Speaker 4: to the ideological divided according to democracy versus autocracy, and

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Speaker 4: divided by you know this this east or West. So

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Speaker 4: there's many things. I think China is thinking a little differently.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the United Nations, and there's sort of this

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Speaker 2: question about the relevant or the vitality of a lot

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Speaker 2: of these Western developed multilateral organizations wto being among them,

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Speaker 2: but you specifically in your vision, maybe China's vision, or

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Speaker 2: maybe there's distinct Is it's important to breathe new life

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Speaker 2: into these organizations or is there a new set of organizations,

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Speaker 2: including some of the ones that China has set up itself,

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Speaker 2: whether it's the be r I, whether we're talking about

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Speaker 2: the Bricks, whether it talk about some of these others.

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Speaker 2: Is the future more okay? If we're going to have

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Speaker 2: this sort of new style of globalization, we actually genuinely

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Speaker 2: need new organizations rather than the husks of the organizations

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Speaker 2: that were sort of built out of the Western liberal order.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think that's that's quite true. I have written

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Speaker 4: to Listen to Me, wrote the book about my dialogue

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Speaker 4: with grand Allison, the funding thing of Havard Coundedy School,

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Speaker 4: which have become a very good seller in China now

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Speaker 4: also English wise. Basically, we find that in our dialogue

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Speaker 4: we talk about US China relations as con John tweens.

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Speaker 4: You know, we cannot separate each other. You know, if

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Speaker 4: we want to separate each other, we end up damage ourself.

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Speaker 4: So that's a given. So we should avoid the so

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Speaker 4: he hit his trap that Grandma isn't famously defined. But

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Speaker 4: also on the other hand, we should also avoid the

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Speaker 4: Kinderberger trap, which means that when new rising power starting

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Speaker 4: to catching up existing number one power, there's a vacuum

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Speaker 4: in the global public goods like when US was taking

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Speaker 4: place in UK, there's a lot of a missing linking points.

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Speaker 4: You know, we've got big recession in the in the thirties,

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Speaker 4: nineteen thirties and things like that. So China actually is

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Speaker 4: US is now put a bit back on its policy.

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Speaker 4: Now it's become a mega you know, make me first,

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Speaker 4: make me great again, and rather than there's no country. Really,

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Speaker 4: it's looking at the gob of public goods. So that's

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Speaker 4: what China is now. China has not backed on a

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Speaker 4: climate change agreement. China strongly support that and China has

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Speaker 4: developed a very clime friendly environment now and we reach

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Speaker 4: cobon neutral and combon peak ahead of time.

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Speaker 2: But just to be clear, these legacy organizations, specifically like

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Speaker 2: the U, China feel like these are their bets that

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Speaker 2: China is intended to make, that these are going to

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Speaker 2: be important institutions or are they fading like many legacy institutions,

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Speaker 2: And that the sort of new more stable order that

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Speaker 2: you may envision doesn't have to be with a fresh

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Speaker 2: set of multilateral international organizations.

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Speaker 4: No. I think China is a strong support of existing

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Speaker 4: UN system, and as president, she just recently proposed the

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Speaker 4: Global Governance institu I mean on five point two or

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Speaker 4: three point he was emphasized the UN principal view and

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Speaker 4: chant of UN and also we can't help he has

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Speaker 4: improved and make it better, but we should not just restart.

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Speaker 4: But on the other hand, we see you also getting

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Speaker 4: quite a marginalized and there's a be awakening and for example,

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Speaker 4: China become a second largest donor to the UN budget

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Speaker 4: now close to you has almost no difference now and

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Speaker 4: also when US putting out of who, China committed the

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Speaker 4: five hundred million US dollars who and when you know

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Speaker 4: W two is marginal, China is working with your Europeans

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Speaker 4: to do that. But furthermore, I think China is still

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Speaker 4: the only public big country, one of the largest economies

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Speaker 4: still proposing economic corporations like a Belgium ROA initiative. For

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Speaker 4: the last twelve thirteen years, Chinese invest over one trillion

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Speaker 4: US dollars for three thousand projects. And also furthermore, China

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Speaker 4: has started the China Africa Economic Summit, China and Latin

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Speaker 4: American Economic SUMMI, China and US CEO Economic Summit, and

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Speaker 4: China Central Asia and China Arab Economic su So it's

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Speaker 4: all economy related. And furthermore, and while Persident Trump has

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Speaker 4: raised in one hundred some country tariff, China announced they're

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Speaker 4: they're going to reduce the tariff of fifty three least

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Speaker 4: development country tariff zero for coming to China. So you

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Speaker 4: can see the contrast there. So I think China is

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Speaker 4: really providing enough public goods to fill some to vacuum

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Speaker 4: US is backing off on development on the global sal

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Speaker 4: and on the on the US system. You know, Chinese

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Speaker 4: US are putting off the UNICO Chinese that was a

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Speaker 4: big support of UNISICO, UH and so and so forth.

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Speaker 4: So so I think China is doing a lot of

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Speaker 4: that kind of activities now.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to US China relations. You know, you

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Speaker 3: mentioned that your book was selling well in China. I'm

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Speaker 3: really curious what is the biggest misunderstanding or the biggest

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Speaker 3: concern that you hear from Chinese people on the ground

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Speaker 3: when it comes to US policy. And I realized it's

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Speaker 3: a little bit unfair word treating you as a spokesman

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Speaker 3: for an entire country and China. We don't intend to

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Speaker 3: do that, but I'd be curious, like, what sort of

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Speaker 3: questions do you get on a daily basis from the

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Speaker 3: average Chinese person about America and what it's doing well.

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Speaker 4: I think the biggest throwing point basically that the bother

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Speaker 4: of the ordinary Chinese that we see the US you know,

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Speaker 4: navies coming to Chinese Ivan Street or South Channel Sea

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Speaker 4: or quite often we see you know, airplan patrol in

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Speaker 4: this part of the world. We never see Chinese aircraft

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Speaker 4: or Navy go to Hawaii or go to Caribbean. You know,

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Speaker 4: we never see that, but we see the US military

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Speaker 4: persons very strong. We had the forty thousand US a

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Speaker 4: minitary personnality in South Korea. It's just just neighboring China

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Speaker 4: and another I don't know how many, you know, it's

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Speaker 4: quite thirty forty thousand public in Japan and we have

433
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 4: now in Philippine. And then they have also miss cells,

434
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 4: mid range miss sells place there and also they're going

435
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 4: to place new missiles in Japan now and South Korea.

436
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 4: So those of them actually bought because because China felt

437
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 4: you know, Taiwan is part of China, and certainly the

438
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 4: people in the USA, oh, China's or democracy. We have

439
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 4: the defender, but China has a Chinese style democracy. Maritocracy

440
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 4: also works perfect, you know, not perfect, but at least

441
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: to work well for this most populous country in the world.

442
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: So I think, you know, we all have a different

443
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 4: governor style. But just because our governor style is with you,

444
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 4: and then that's why you need to because Taiwan, because

445
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 4: the reason for the protecting Taiwan is Taiwan is the democracy.

446
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 4: Say that we have to protect that but I think

447
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 4: you know, China can also absorbing that. And you know,

448
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 4: China promised to Taiwan, you know, no tax to be

449
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 4: given to federal government, a lot of autonomy, and China

450
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 4: announced that Taiwan Taiwanese will be free to walk in

451
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 4: the mayland. You know, no visa needed, anything needed. We

452
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 4: already two million taiwan Is working to mainland, and there's

453
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 4: half a million husband wife married across the street. And

454
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 4: then before tai when you know formal person of Taiwan,

455
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 4: you know, there's six million mayland flooded the Taiwan with tourism.

456
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 4: Send me the money spending restaurant, hotels. You know, there

457
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 4: was almost integrated already if not for the four interference.

458
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 4: So I think the Chinese said, okay, please maybe just

459
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 4: let us peacefully unified, like like Germany you had the

460
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 4: you know East Germany, West Germany unified, and let's also

461
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 4: hope in North Korea sALS Care unified. So basically they

462
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 4: were really looking for less interference on that. And so

463
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 4: I think that would be greatly improve in the reason

464
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 4: because in the communicate that the established three Communicate China

465
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 4: US have it said very clear US will not maintained.

466
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: You know, we're just named the normal time, no official times.

467
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 4: But then we see US officials, parliament managary Nazi policy

468
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 4: keep visiting Taiwan or Taiwanese leaders coming to the visiting US.

469
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 4: So those in public about a bit of ordinary Chinese.

470
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 4: But of course again win then of course US was

471
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: a world place man for a long time. But now

472
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 4: we see many countries also the governt model is not

473
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 4: working perfectly. We have all the domestic issues, US has it,

474
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 4: European has it, All the countries has that. But China

475
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 4: on the other and seems maintain a pretty good status.

476
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: And that's also keep lifting people out of property. So

477
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: I think they should give China some credit for doing

478
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 4: that rather than okay, is always shown in front of

479
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 4: the China's those steps, and you have a US parade

480
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: of military muscles all the time, So that's a bit

481
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 4: of bothered for the Chinese.

482
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: Basically, when you think about China's relationship with the other

483
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: bricks countries, with African countries, with the global South country

484
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: so to speak, have you seen substantive changes in those relationships,

485
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: specifically since the wake of October twenty twenty three and

486
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: the start of the war on Gaza and countries sort

487
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: of rethinking. You know, has this prompted a concrete rethinking

488
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: about you know, you said the US was the global

489
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: policeman and a lot of people have perceived that in

490
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: the wake of this ongoing war. Has there been a

491
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: substantive change the way countries want to have a relationship

492
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: with China.

493
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 4: Well, absolutely, you can. You know, this show was for

494
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 4: the first time you see China Asian Summit at the

495
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 4: g CC. You know, golf countries all came to CM.

496
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 4: So you had the first China Asian CC Summit. And

497
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 4: now you can see also the bricks countries expanding that.

498
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 4: You had the you know, UAE was there, and there's

499
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: a lot of you know, Middle Eastern countries really coming

500
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 4: to China. You have you also have the s Shaha

501
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 4: Corporation summit. Recently, you had the Turkey, you had the

502
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 4: Iranian president. You have a lot of people from that region.

503
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 4: So I think China's road does play because China, for example,

504
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 4: a few years ago, China clinched do between Saudis and

505
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: Iranians rather than you know, we're seeing the current chaos

506
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 4: going on. China also causing the fourteen different fractions of

507
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 4: Palestinian group had aging Palestinian decoration, and China could publicly

508
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 4: do more in making a peace promoting peace between and Palestinian.

509
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 4: China also maintained good religion in the past with issue.

510
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 4: So I think that sooner or later, probably those countries

511
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 4: we realize that we cannot really let just what happened

512
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 4: that gods are the humanitarian crisis that you know, deaths

513
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 4: of thousands and tens of thousands of people, what happened

514
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 4: you're living on a daily basis, I mean, where is

515
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 4: where is the where is the you know, children are

516
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 4: dying and all these things, so that kind of justice.

517
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 4: Where is the justice? Now? So of course there's there's

518
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 4: there's always problem to start with, but I think we

519
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 4: cannot because a two round doesn't make it right. I

520
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 4: really think that we should continue to have this international

521
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 4: moral power that the United Nations Security Council should really

522
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: exercise rather than you know, being vtled all the time.

523
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 4: So I'm thinking, you know, China public could play more

524
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 4: role in the future. But that's that's let's solve this

525
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 4: Quinn crisis. If the if the breaks country peace making

526
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,239
Speaker 4: can happen. Uh left by China and I'm sure that

527
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 4: model could be applied to other conflicts in other regions.

528
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 4: China also trying to You can see Prime Minister Moodie

529
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 4: and the Prime Minister of Pakistan was at the same

530
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 4: type a few months after fighting in China, and we

531
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 4: said Armenia and Azerbaijab president coming to sing in Tanging

532
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 4: as well. So probably China is its building up its

533
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 4: mediating power and peace keeping power as time goes on.

534
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 3: M just going back to globalization for a second. I

535
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 3: think everyone agrees, and you've already talked about this, that

536
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: China has been a huge beneficiary from globalization over time,

537
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 3: but I get the sense that there is still of

538
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: feeling within China that some aspects of the global economic

539
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: order or trade agreements are unfair to China. How do

540
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: you sort of square that tension and where do you

541
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: think the concern or the worries over unfairness actually comes from.

542
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: And by the way, I could ask this question to

543
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: American officials as well, Like the US is a massive

544
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: beneficiary of the global economic order, and yet the Trump

545
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 3: administration clearly feels very aggrieved about America's place in the world.

546
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: But when it comes to China, like where does the

547
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: sense of unfairness actually come from.

548
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 4: Well, there's quite a few actually. You see. One of

549
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 4: the things that US was treating the pure deficit. That's

550
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: the only reason they started tire for war. I was

551
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 4: giving a talk just the last April to a few

552
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: months ago at the UN Security Council where they called

553
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 4: a specially arena meeting in New York. Eighty countries representably

554
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 4: un participated. Where I gave a speech there. I was

555
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 4: saying that for example, US only looking at the goods deficit,

556
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 4: you know, merchandise compasite, but all of that deficit was

557
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 4: maybe you know, thirty forty fifty percent was produced by

558
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 4: multinational thirty percent by US. For example, out of the

559
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 4: four hundred billion deficit, the Trump is a levy on

560
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 4: China's three hundred some billion deficit. He immediately waived one

561
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 4: hundred billion because a lot of the companies are made

562
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 4: goods in China. Apple has to source their iPhone from India,

563
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 4: but it's not enough, so they have to lift that

564
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: sanctions on those deficits. Anyway, and there's a lot of

565
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 4: inter time. But also US and joined one trillion dollar

566
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 4: trade surplus on the service tree. They're not counting that.

567
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 4: And also the calculation about China's export. For example, every

568
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 4: every phone we made in China, I've iPhone made here,

569
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 4: China probably made the labor costs, you know, eighty percent

570
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 4: was made by multinationals, even cars the same. So why

571
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 4: is just purely looking at the trade deficit numbers. A

572
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 4: lot of money was not made in China, was made

573
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 4: by international multinational companies and they're not sending back to

574
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 4: the country. So that's why I agree with the President

575
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 4: Trump to have more investment back to US because multinational

576
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 4: made a lot of money in China and elsewhere, but

577
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 4: they should really investment back rather than putting the tax heavens.

578
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 4: So that's why the Global minimum taps proposed by OECD

579
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 4: has a great by over one hundreds some countries, but

580
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 4: it's not practiced yet on that now. So that's what aspect.

581
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 4: The other spect I could say is the for example,

582
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 4: US is starting these sanctions on China, for example, forbidden

583
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 4: the use selling the chips to China, so that is

584
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: really and also they called in the Trump administration, you know,

585
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 4: high fance, small yard and all those things. And there's

586
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 4: one thousand and five hundred Chinese companies on the US

587
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 4: anti the least. I mean, maybe China has a dozen

588
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 4: or or two dozen of US companies, but compared with

589
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 4: the magnitude of US, is too much. Too many over

590
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 4: the security, over use of the security raises to really

591
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 4: restrict all the Chinese companies on that. So that really

592
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 4: become a problem. And so that's why China started to say, okay,

593
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 4: if chips can be the do use goods, right, you

594
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 4: can say okay, can be used for security or military.

595
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 4: The same is true for rare earths right, raiers can

596
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 4: be making for airplanes, tanks, everything. So when China started

597
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 4: a little bit on that, that US starting to relax

598
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 4: on the sale of the chips now quite a bit.

599
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,479
Speaker 4: So you can see, you know, morally, it's the same

600
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 4: reason if US doing things in the first term, China

601
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 4: didn't respond like that, but now China starting to respond

602
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 4: like that. So I think that's why we see quite

603
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 4: a few agreement made by between US and Chinese off issues,

604
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 4: because China is much resilient now, much stronger. And also

605
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: US has realized if they really sanctioned so hard on China,

606
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 4: the Christmas shopping sees that we're coming up the shoves

607
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 4: will be empty, and we could you know, American consumer

608
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 4: will suffer and then that going to hurt the Trump space.

609
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 4: That's why we keep extending. They have these seems more

610
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 4: they talk to each other, more friendly than talk to

611
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 4: Indian and Brazil and others. So I think they probably

612
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 4: realized that too. Lott is economy, they can really organize

613
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 4: each other. They have to fund the ready to collabor.

614
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: The Christmas shopping season is my personal super Bowl.

615
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: Yes, earlier this year, actually not that long ago, Bloomberg reported,

616
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: So therefore it's absolutely true. It says quote officials in

617
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: Beijing verbally encouraged regulatory agencies and local governments to curb

618
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: technology transfers and equipment exports to India and Southeast Asia.

619
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: And there were some stories about Fox con engineers, for example,

620
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: who may have been part of some sort of moving

621
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: the supply chain of those Apple iPhones, the men part

622
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: of the final assembly perhaps to India. And this report

623
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: that Chinese officials may have been pushing back against it,

624
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: I get like rhetorically, the existing system where American companies

625
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: do a lot of manufacturing or in China has been

626
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: incredibly beneficial. Is China totally comfortable with the fact that

627
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: as part of this globalization, some of this manufacturing may

628
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: end up leaving or is you know, US seeks to

629
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: diversify its sources. Is China comfortable with this?

630
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 4: China, I think it's pretty comfortable now. And that's why

631
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 4: China is more confident. For example, in twenty nineteen one,

632
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 4: before covid Us is largest trading part of China, and

633
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 4: now US fall into the third place or the first

634
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 4: place now because URCI become the largest place trading part

635
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 4: of China since the Asset Regional Comprehensive Partnership Agreement. And

636
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 4: then that is actually happening because you know, Viennam become

637
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 4: China FAS's largest trading partner now and Indonesia, Malaysia and

638
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 4: now expanded to Latin American, you know, most a lot

639
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 4: of American countries. China is the largest trading partner. And

640
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 4: also with Africa. Now China lifted all the tariff from

641
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 4: African countries products to come to China. You will see

642
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 4: a flot of African products coming to China. So so

643
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 4: I think you know that probably China doesn't mine. There's

644
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 4: low maybe a little bit labor entires because the labor

645
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: average labor workerforce micro workers ages forty three years old.

646
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 4: It's getting old China. So there's a lot of shoemaking

647
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 4: or you know, low low income labor cost jobs went

648
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 4: to Vienna went to China. Really doesn't mine now. The

649
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 4: China now is focused on the high end now. For example,

650
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 4: Chinese focus on the green power transition.

651
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: No curves like there's no curves as far as like

652
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: from your perspective, there's no impulsive the government to curb

653
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 2: moving some of these more advanced things again talk about

654
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 2: iPhones and such to a country like India.

655
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 4: Not really. I think China still encourage the investment for

656
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 4: example Bui d or you know, c ATL and I

657
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 4: know quite a few companies still very bullished investing overseas.

658
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 4: There may be sensitive military or rare stuff that China

659
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 4: may be question a little bit, but on the general

660
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 4: I think things are still quite open.

661
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: Is there an argument to be made that China should

662
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: perhaps open its own economy further if you know, it

663
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: actually desires more economic integration with the rest of the world,

664
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: because we're talking about globalization still. But China still has

665
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 3: capital controls, still has currency controls, still has some restrictions

666
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: on investment and things like that. Should it be more.

667
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 4: Open, absolutely, I agree with you. I think China should

668
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 4: be more open, and that's why we've been that's our

669
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 4: think time role to promote that. For example, we proposed

670
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 4: people promoting the visa. Now China has you should beatly

671
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 4: laterally you should visa for forty some countries in our

672
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 4: European countries, Australia, Japan, South Korea. I urge also you

673
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 4: recommend China to policymakers to open visa for US citizens

674
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 4: for Canadia City this coming to Channel Free. But also

675
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 4: on the trade policy, I think there should be more

676
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 4: libilization continuously. I note that the government is located to

677
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 4: that and fifteen five years plan will probably be even

678
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 4: more open. Of course, there's always rooms to improve. I

679
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 4: totally agree. And they have opened a financial sector quite

680
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 4: a long time ago, and as you said, maybe in

681
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 4: currency they should be more convertible. And also on the

682
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 4: on the investment in the culture, in the in the

683
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 4: in the you know, other areas pharmaceutical and now Channa

684
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 4: also welcome for university come to China to open their

685
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 4: branches and do it. I'm on the board of a

686
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 4: Duke Queensland University in China, which is John Vander between

687
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 4: Duke University and Huhai University. You know, we have so

688
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 4: many international student there and Yu shang Hai is operating

689
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 4: very well, so we hope to have more goloble exchanges.

690
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 4: I agree with you. You know, there's there's still more rooms.

691
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 4: That's why I think this kind of talk between China

692
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 4: and US. Now we see tiktoks almost maybe have a

693
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 4: deal there, and it's great, so we listen, is this

694
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 4: start we should continuously talk and engage and reach agreement

695
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 4: and open up further to acm to each other.

696
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 3: First comes diplomacy through dance videos, Joe, and then comes

697
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 3: an easing of currency restrictions.

698
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 2: Well podcast recordings. Just to be clear, you know, obviously

699
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: we don't expect you to be the representative of the

700
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: entire Chinese perspective, Tracy, and I need to establish that

701
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: we do not represent the entire United States and the

702
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: questions that we have. You mentioned the goods trade deficit,

703
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 2: and of course one of the things is you know,

704
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: obviously China has gotten up much richer thanks to the

705
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: booming industrial sector. The US has benefited from a lot

706
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: of less expensive, more sophisticated goods that AD buys. But

707
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: there is this source of concern, and I say this,

708
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: you know, a couple of weeks after that military prade,

709
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: there is a source of concern that without a robust

710
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: American manufacturing capacity that we can no longer be a

711
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: powerful military country as well. And I know I do

712
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: not believe it is China's role to sort of helped

713
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,919
Speaker 2: the US figure out its industrial capacity questions. Nonetheless, from

714
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: the perspective, does the US concern make sense to you?

715
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: Perhaps there are things that seem unfair, certain technology transfer restrictions,

716
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: seem counter to the spirit of globalization, et cetera. But

717
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: is the US fundamentally wrong to be concerned there is

718
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 2: more and more of the world's share, however you want

719
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: to measure it of manufacturing of advanced goods somehow become

720
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: centered around China, that that long term weakened the national

721
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: security position of the United States.

722
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 4: Well, I think we are now more intertwined. Warnow, there's

723
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 4: quite a bit of the competitive advantage, like Davi Kanto

724
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 4: mentioned in many years ago. So what I think US

725
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 4: is still leading. The US is very good at inventing innovation.

726
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 4: You see Silicon Valley. You CEI. You know, by the

727
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: way Jason Hulk said, the half of the AA talent's

728
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 4: coming from China. You know, US is a big harvest

729
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 4: of Chinese talent too, And that's why we're saying several

730
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 4: million Chinese student went to the United States. I mean

731
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 4: probably half of them return still have a remain that

732
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 4: greatly benefited the US economy. So what I think that

733
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: that is really US is good doing zero to one,

734
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 4: and maybe China is good at one to one hundred.

735
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 4: So of the world one hundred university top fifty is

736
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 4: doing the United States. The reason China did allders of

737
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 4: manufacturing because as I mentioned, China is seventy percent of

738
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 4: the global speed railway sixty, golo go five, gen networks ten,

739
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 4: largest container broad seven. They have the infrastructure to so

740
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 4: this is a value change supply chain for the world,

741
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 4: not for China. So maybe in Chinese is made for

742
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 4: the world. I think US only worried about if they

743
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 4: can make you cannot make big ships or aircraft. Now

744
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 4: they go to South Korea to do that now, so

745
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 4: they still find a way to do that. But I

746
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 4: don't think that you have to depend totally on the manufacturer.

747
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 4: So if if if we're leaving the pre uh you know,

748
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 4: the trade war era, you know where we buy so

749
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: much chips from US China China energy depends on the

750
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 4: import Channa to spend more money buying the chips than

751
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 4: China importing energy. So now US said they're not selling

752
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 4: to China, and then the US company losing a big

753
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 4: profit center and then they are really reduced their antibuddy,

754
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 4: and China is forced to do reinvent well, and there's

755
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 4: a lot of waste there. So we see this separation

756
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 4: is really no good all on security reasons. We should

757
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 4: not overseecurize and we should really display our own each

758
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 4: other's a compartit advantage.

759
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: I want to ask one more question about security philosophy. Obviously,

760
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: when Russia invaded Ukraine, the US opposed all kinds of

761
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: sanctions on Russia and tried to constrain its ability to

762
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: trade it all or make any money. Going back to

763
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: Israel's war in Gaza, and you express the horror that

764
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 2: you see from that and the sort of response to that.

765
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 2: But China still trades with Israel as the US does

766
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 2: in the future in a sort of different global world.

767
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 4: Order.

768
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: Would it ever be part of China's diplomatic arsenal to

769
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: take a more heavy hand in some of these conflicts

770
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: and say, oh, we're not going to trade you, We're

771
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: not going to sell you advanced technology that you need

772
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: to run your economy or run your military, et cetera.

773
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 2: Because so far, despite the sort of concerns or the response,

774
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: there hasn't been any change in the trading relationship. Could

775
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: it ever get to that point where China views its

776
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: sort of diplomatic commercial power that way in conflicts that

777
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 2: it's not directly involved in.

778
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: Well, I think China certainly would like to do more,

779
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 4: you know, like what do you happen on the WHL?

780
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 4: Chinese already fulfilled its objecations too. I think the key

781
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 4: is really we need to restore the U and authority

782
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 4: and principle, particularly US Security Council. Maybe we should also

783
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 4: reform that too. Maybe we should add twenty members are

784
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 4: the sixteen to twenty members as associated permanent member of UN.

785
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 4: And we should really not let the Union Lanto single

786
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 4: veto be abused. For example, since the founding of you

787
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 4: and Russia abused use the veto one hundred sometimes twenty

788
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 4: forty times US, one hundred times China and twenty times.

789
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 4: We need to really control that. So I think we

790
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 4: reform you wan to reflect this multipolar world. And in

791
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 4: the future, if there's any other there's any problem happened,

792
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 4: let's send the UN Peacekeeping Force to do that. And

793
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 4: so if the old Security member have a big majority

794
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 4: and general sample have a big majority, we should make

795
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 4: that happen. So I think reform this multipolar world. We

796
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 4: also need to reform you and to reflect that because

797
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 4: the war is no longer fits. The superstructure does not

798
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 4: fit the relative today.

799
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 2: Now all right, Henry Wong, Founder and President for Center

800
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: for China and Globalization, So fantastic to have you on

801
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: the show. Can we do a live odd Lots in

802
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: Beijing with you at some point?

803
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Pea, welcome back. All right.

804
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: We are gonna as soon as as soon as we

805
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 2: get off this call, we are going to begin the

806
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 2: preparations to figure out how we're going to make this happen.

807
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: So great chatting you with you. Thank you for staying

808
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: up late in your time to talk with us, and

809
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 2: I'll hope to talk to you against him.

810
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you so much, both of you.

811
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Tracy. I really enjoyed that conversation.

812
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: It was interesting thinking about, you know, this idea that

813
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 2: rhetorically there are a lot of people on both sides

814
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: of the aisle who say things like, oh, we need

815
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: to get out of this sort of competition framework, et cetera.

816
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 2: It doesn't really feel like anything is actually happening on

817
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: that front.

818
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 3: Yes, one thing that struck me from the conversation was,

819
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 3: I guess how economic oriented it feels like all of

820
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 3: Chinese policy actually is. And I suppose maybe that gets

821
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 3: back to this idea. This is an old idea now,

822
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 3: but that social contract idea about the CCP, so as

823
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: long as people feel that their lives are getting better

824
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 3: right than, the CCP has strong support. I think the

825
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 3: economic focus really came through in that conversation.

826
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: I think, you know, obviously from the US perspective, there

827
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 2: is this view that you know, Henry is the word

828
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: global policeman. A lot of people would say yes, absolutely,

829
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 2: and that a big role of the US Navy specifically

830
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 2: is enforcing the fact or freeing the world for trade.

831
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 2: Right that part of the reason that the world could

832
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 2: trade freely, that.

833
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 3: That's like a public good provided Bible.

834
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: And Opposer has talked about this, and others have talked

835
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: about this idea that these things go hand in hand.

836
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because so Henry talked about impulse for

837
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: continuation of global trade, including with the US, et cetera.

838
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: They're clearly, to my mind, seems to be less of

839
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: an appetite from China to like, it's not obvious that

840
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: there is a to fill the gap, yeah, or that

841
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: you know, and I guess there's a question like does

842
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 2: the world need such muscle to trade?

843
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 4: Right? Does it?

844
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: Could you have a world of trade where there is

845
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: not one entity that has a truly global military footprint.

846
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: I think these are really interesting questions. Henry of course

847
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: talked about, especially in that last answer, restrengthening the UN,

848
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 2: et cetera, restructure, restructuring the UN exactly. It's not entirely

849
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: obvious to me that these institutions as they're constructed can

850
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: really be revived, even with lots of Chinese money going

851
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: into them. I think that's still kind of TVD well.

852
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 3: I think this is it right, even if you restructure

853
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: the Security Council so that, you know, you wouldn't have

854
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 3: one powerful member vedoing stuff all the time. Even if

855
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 3: people agreed to do things, what is the UN actually

856
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 3: going to do? Right?

857
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 4: Right?

858
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 2: What is the UAD actually going to do? I don't

859
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: we didn't get into it that much, but like the

860
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 2: idea of a sort of war, I don't know, bricks

861
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: composed peace keeping force. I bet there are a lot of

862
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 2: people in the US who would love that. They're like, yeah,

863
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: let's have peace, let's.

864
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 3: Have a sea, someone else take care, let's give a.

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Speaker 2: Ceasefire in Russia and Ukraine. And also let's not have

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Speaker 2: it be particularly dominated by Western peacekeepers shouldering that burden.

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Speaker 2: I bet a lot of people in the US would

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Speaker 2: love that. I would, you know, head more time. I

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00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 2: would love to really explore, like what the constraints on

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00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: that actually happening are there? But I thought that was

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00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: a very useful sort of overview of some of these

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00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: questions from the Chinese perspective.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely don't explore the constraints, Joe, just take credit for

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00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 3: solving us China attentions on the podcast in less than

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Speaker 3: an hour.

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Speaker 6: Shall we leave it there, Let's leave it there.

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Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.

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00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy.

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00:51:58,520 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 4: Alloway and I'm Joe.

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00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 2: You can follow me at the Stalwart, follow our producers

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00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: Krmen Rodriguez at Carman armand dash O Bennett at Dashbot

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Speaker 2: and Kilbrooks at Kilbrooks. For more odd Lots content, go

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Speaker 2: to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. Were have the

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Speaker 2: daily newsletter and all of our episodes, and you can

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Speaker 2: in our discord Discord dot gg slash od Lots.

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Speaker 3: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you want us

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Speaker 6: Thanks for listening. In e