Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset.
Speaker 2: I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.
Speaker 1: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
Speaker 1: a deadly tipping point. In Cells will be added to
Speaker 1: the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 3: I see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1: This is in Cells a production of KT Studios and
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode twelve. Behind the scenes.
Speaker 3: With Looks Maxine. It's all about making themselves better for
Speaker 3: someone else that is not there.
Speaker 4: You must change. You are not acceptable to society, You're
Speaker 4: not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your
Speaker 4: aspirations are.
Speaker 2: We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an
Speaker 2: identity that could also be what triggers young people to
Speaker 2: feel like this is the place for them to learn.
Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT's Studios. To step
Speaker 1: back and reflect on what we've learned making the series,
Speaker 1: Stephanie Leideker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down
Speaker 1: for a producer round table. We dug into everything our
Speaker 1: own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that
Speaker 1: challenged us, and now the broader manosphere shaped the stories
Speaker 1: we uncovered. Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series
Speaker 1: and why now felt like the right time to do it.
Speaker 2: In Cells has been one of those projects that's been
Speaker 2: close to my heart as a company. We've heard the
Speaker 2: word in cells for a really long time, and it's
Speaker 2: kind of been one of those things that we hear
Speaker 2: about but don't totally understand fully, and over the course
Speaker 2: of the last few years, it feels like it's one
Speaker 2: of those words that keeps popping up again and again
Speaker 2: and again. And suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like
Speaker 2: something that was very fringe in that nobody really heard
Speaker 2: much about. All of a sudden, it was on the
Speaker 2: ticker of most news shows, and maybe for reasons that
Speaker 2: I can't quite explain. Number One Brian Coberger's case. Listen,
Speaker 2: He's not an inceell. He's never been identified as an inceell,
Speaker 2: but it was something that hit the ether when we
Speaker 2: were covering that case, because that word came up so
Speaker 2: many times.
Speaker 1: Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Coberger, who's serving four life
Speaker 1: sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students.
Speaker 1: Kylie Gonzalvez, Madison, Mogen Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle. Kid
Speaker 1: Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and
Speaker 1: three seasons of the Idaho Masacre podcast. It was a
Speaker 1: year's long endeavor.
Speaker 2: And again, Courtney, you and I we've been working on
Speaker 2: cases surrounding in cells for a really long time, and
Speaker 2: suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things
Speaker 2: that we had to dig deeper into. I mean, look,
Speaker 2: we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries
Speaker 2: and we walk into a lot of dark spaces. That's
Speaker 2: the spirit of what we do every day. This is
Speaker 2: one that I think we all need to know more about,
Speaker 2: understand better, and it's really something just to keep us
Speaker 2: all safe. I think the takeaway for me is that
Speaker 2: not every in cell or someone who identifies as an
Speaker 2: inceell is dangerous. Not every person who identifies as an
Speaker 2: inceel is going to be violent.
Speaker 1: We know that.
Speaker 2: However, when looking at a pocket of people on the
Speaker 2: dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places
Speaker 2: that are not really monitored. So without us talking about
Speaker 2: it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves
Speaker 2: or protect those that we love.
Speaker 1: So when you talked about it, sort of preconceived notions,
Speaker 1: and my go in was every in cell was sort
Speaker 1: of aggressive and hate filled. And the beautiful work that
Speaker 1: Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying in cells,
Speaker 1: the depth of the sadness.
Speaker 2: And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this. I
Speaker 2: will say too. You know, in cells to me always
Speaker 2: had a violent underbelly, and I think now going through
Speaker 2: this journey, it's really showing this is a real story
Speaker 2: about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of
Speaker 2: the norm, which frankly is the norm. Who doesn't feel
Speaker 2: left out, who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes right,
Speaker 2: So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that
Speaker 2: it will get better. As adults, we sort of learned
Speaker 2: this because we've been forced to. But now the target
Speaker 2: audience is young people, and I think now we can
Speaker 2: all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently,
Speaker 2: and look what we're researching online and frankly, what is
Speaker 2: finding us online? It's big business. We are the commodity.
Speaker 2: We are big business. What I really see though, is
Speaker 2: there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised
Speaker 2: and left out, and therefore you want to belong at
Speaker 2: all costs. Something like this is the perfect entry.
Speaker 1: Gabriel Cristio, a producer at KT Studios, talks about his
Speaker 1: perception of the topic of in cells at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the series and goes on to explain how that's
Speaker 1: evolved over time.
Speaker 3: I began on this project early on by reaching out
Speaker 3: to self identifying in cells. Carolyn and I, another producer
Speaker 3: on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them
Speaker 3: were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I
Speaker 3: ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach,
Speaker 3: and that approach made it much easier to connect, and
Speaker 3: it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most
Speaker 3: of the self identified in cells featured on this project.
Speaker 1: Going into in cells, did you have any thoughts or
Speaker 1: preconceived notions or expectations.
Speaker 3: I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what
Speaker 3: in in cell meant. Once I started hearing people's personal stories,
Speaker 3: everyone I spoke with had a different path into the
Speaker 3: community and a different relation chip to the label. There's
Speaker 3: a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand
Speaker 3: before this project.
Speaker 1: Whether it's Lewis or mister East or New Cold Squid,
Speaker 1: did anything surprise you? And speaking with them.
Speaker 3: I think just how much each one wanted to have
Speaker 3: a conversation to just speak with what they would refer
Speaker 3: to me as enormies, but really someone who wasn't there
Speaker 3: to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know,
Speaker 3: and learn from their experiences. Many of them opened up
Speaker 3: more than I expected for a first time interaction. One
Speaker 3: of them even told me at the end of our
Speaker 3: conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void,
Speaker 3: except maybe for once, the void wasn't feeding into their
Speaker 3: negative thoughts. It was just someone who wanted to feel heard. Right,
Speaker 3: So connection, Yes, connection, A lot of these self identifying
Speaker 3: endzels were really just seeking a connection.
Speaker 1: I have to say. That's what I feel like I
Speaker 1: learned most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue,
Speaker 1: as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection. It
Speaker 1: is loneliness. It is not being heard, it is not
Speaker 1: feeling like you're valued, and therefore you don't know where
Speaker 1: to go to it except for too many places that
Speaker 1: will echo and underline what you're already feeling, and a.
Speaker 3: Lot of it is the online forums where there's not
Speaker 3: another face behind the camera. A lot of them, I know,
Speaker 3: did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them
Speaker 3: from forming a connection are their looks where looks maxing
Speaker 3: and all that comes into place and they start trying
Speaker 3: to change that to form the connection. And because it's
Speaker 3: judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates
Speaker 3: a barrier for that connection for them to happen. Whereas
Speaker 3: someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not
Speaker 3: even care, you know, which is why a lot of
Speaker 3: these in cell forms continue to grow.
Speaker 1: With your time on the in cell boards, was it
Speaker 1: what you expected or were you you surprised by any
Speaker 1: language content, any takeaways.
Speaker 3: I was surprised at how receptive they were into wanting
Speaker 3: to speak, and as soon as I introduced myself as
Speaker 3: a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to
Speaker 3: engage a lot of them wanted to address misconceptions, or
Speaker 3: some of them you just wanted to share their story
Speaker 3: and their perspectives about and sell them. I honestly expected
Speaker 3: a lot of hostility, like I was going to be
Speaker 3: mocked or dismissed, but instead, I think approaching with an
Speaker 3: open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot
Speaker 3: of these conversations. I also learned a lot about the
Speaker 3: nuances within these communities, the differences between Black Pill, Red Pill,
Speaker 3: Blue Pill.
Speaker 1: Investigative journalist and KAT Studio's producer, Connor Powell weighs in
Speaker 1: on how his personal perspective has changed after working on
Speaker 1: this podcast. He spent a lot of time on INSUL
Speaker 1: forums as well as speaking with self identifying and CELLS
Speaker 1: journalists and experts.
Speaker 4: Anytime you sort of see like a young man who
Speaker 4: is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of
Speaker 4: went along with the idea that, oh he's an inseel.
Speaker 4: After researching talking to people who are self described in cells,
Speaker 4: I understand now that it's a little bit more of
Speaker 4: a specific term, and I'm not using the word as
Speaker 4: flippantly maybe as I would have in the past. And
Speaker 4: I think I've even said to a couple of people
Speaker 4: and like, let's be careful how we use the word intel.
Speaker 4: It describes a very specific personality and set of issues
Speaker 4: that this person is going through.
Speaker 1: In speaking to the en cells, was there anything that
Speaker 1: surprised you with that.
Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time on the message boards
Speaker 4: as well, trying to sort of get a feel, and
Speaker 4: there really is a wide ray of people who are
Speaker 4: in that sort of in cell categories. There's young that
Speaker 4: are sort of angry. There are older that are more
Speaker 4: I don't want to say content, but are more or
Speaker 4: sober about where they are in life. And I wasn't
Speaker 4: really expecting for there to be such a wide array
Speaker 4: of personalities under the banner.
Speaker 1: Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on
Speaker 1: insul forums?
Speaker 4: The main in cell forums were way more vile and
Speaker 4: disgusting than I was expecting. And I say that as
Speaker 4: somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and
Speaker 4: now is x and sees a lot of things on
Speaker 4: social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic. The in
Speaker 4: cell platforms are, as far as I can tell, the
Speaker 4: worst of the worst. At the same time, I was
Speaker 4: surprised that there were other communities of in cells on Facebook, Discord,
Speaker 4: in a couple other places that were way less racist
Speaker 4: and misogynistic than I was expecting. I do think if
Speaker 4: you are somebody who is struggling with either in cell
Speaker 4: culture or insul life or self described in cell. You
Speaker 4: can go sort of down two paths. You can find
Speaker 4: people who collectively want to improve their lot in life,
Speaker 4: or you can go down the other path, which is
Speaker 4: burn it all down and just be angry. But the websites,
Speaker 4: they are way more frightening than I was expecting.
Speaker 1: You participated a lot in the episode where we talked
Speaker 1: about the importance of the algorithm. Do you have any
Speaker 1: sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly
Speaker 1: how it's been proved over and over? Twelve year old boys,
Speaker 1: as an example, can be easily fed this. They don't
Speaker 1: need to go looking for this material, It goes looking
Speaker 1: for them.
Speaker 4: The algorithms are really frightening across the board because, as
Speaker 4: we know with like it will force content on you
Speaker 4: that is going to get you upset. It never forces
Speaker 4: content on you that will increase their mental sobriety. And
Speaker 4: the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last
Speaker 4: couple of weeks after this project was if AI is
Speaker 4: the sort of next version of technology. It's almost like
Speaker 4: you're going to supercharge these algorithms, and so like, what
Speaker 4: are we going to be pushed what types of answers
Speaker 4: to questions do we have If you look at where
Speaker 4: technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms
Speaker 4: for social media, it's hard not to be really scared
Speaker 4: about what AI is going to produce in our lives.
Speaker 4: Because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms
Speaker 4: of what they're producing in the content for social media.
Speaker 4: It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good,
Speaker 4: helpful content out of the AI algorithm.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 1: a moment. Connor raises an important question about the potential
Speaker 1: of AI supercharging the push of the most harmful content
Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable users. Stephanie picks it up from here.
Speaker 1: Think about it.
Speaker 2: You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable
Speaker 2: preteen teenage years. So that's the target audience who has
Speaker 2: literally no context, no perspective of the outside world. So
Speaker 2: I got to be honest. Even as an adult who
Speaker 2: works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear
Speaker 2: some of the darkest, scariest things every single day.
Speaker 1: It turns out I didn't know anything.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know the basics, And thankfully, through the
Speaker 2: research here and this podcast, I feel like all of
Speaker 2: us are wiser, are smarter, and more informed.
Speaker 1: Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the
Speaker 1: business model. It changes the way you see the entire
Speaker 1: online ecosystem. It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility
Speaker 1: and prevention. What actions do we take, who do we
Speaker 1: turn to? Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward.
Speaker 2: How do we work with each other to better understand
Speaker 2: what our kids are doing, whether you have a preschooler
Speaker 2: or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending
Speaker 2: too much time online. It's just information is power, and
Speaker 2: I think the spirit of this is to be proactive,
Speaker 2: and thankfully we're discussing it. Honestly, we have to go
Speaker 2: to dark corners to really see what the answers are,
Speaker 2: and it's uncomfortable. Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor,
Speaker 2: and little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere,
Speaker 2: and we're all impressionable.
Speaker 1: The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having
Speaker 1: the information laid out in black and white. And then
Speaker 1: also what sat with me the most was how, like
Speaker 1: you said, this is all kind of really these groups
Speaker 1: are happening everywhere in different forms starting small and coming
Speaker 1: at children. It's an active thing that's really coming at
Speaker 1: the next generation in general.
Speaker 2: The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody.
Speaker 2: We're not looking to regurgitate and blame. But it's really
Speaker 2: powerful stuff. When you listen to a victim's mom and
Speaker 2: hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected.
Speaker 2: It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids,
Speaker 2: and I think that's a spirit of all of this.
Speaker 2: We are looking to be productive. This has been a
Speaker 2: very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly
Speaker 2: proud of because it's not just one case. This is everywhere,
Speaker 2: and it's not just about in cells anymore.
Speaker 1: The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than
Speaker 1: I realized as a woman. In my feed looks nothing
Speaker 1: like what young men are seeing, and I had little
Speaker 1: sense of just how popular these voices had become. Here's
Speaker 1: investigative journalist and Katie's Studios producer Conor Powell.
Speaker 4: The manisphere, I think, is to some extent, selling young
Speaker 4: men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo,
Speaker 4: it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what
Speaker 4: manhood is with no exceptions and really no qualifications, that
Speaker 4: this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe
Speaker 4: not all of manhood. And it feels to me like
Speaker 4: if they're just selling up that two hour movie escapism,
Speaker 4: but they're selling that this is real life, and how
Speaker 4: confusing that can be for young men and even young
Speaker 4: women I guess as well. I mean they see this
Speaker 4: stuff and think, oh, this is what a man is.
Speaker 4: If you go down that path, you are only.
Speaker 3: In a dated with that.
Speaker 4: You're not being inundated by people who are strong and
Speaker 4: intellectually smart. You're not seeing people who are athletes scholars
Speaker 4: as well. You're just onto the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma,
Speaker 4: fast cars. Right, that's the path you go down.
Speaker 1: I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to
Speaker 1: the desert to have photo shoots. They rent a Lamborghini
Speaker 1: and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like,
Speaker 1: we're going to take your picture and your life's going
Speaker 1: to be great.
Speaker 4: It's almost like what you see having worked in like
Speaker 4: TV production. You see music videos where these rappers or
Speaker 4: rock bands are on the set of their music video
Speaker 4: and there's weapons and there's sunglasses, and there's women and
Speaker 4: then they yell cut and all that gets taken away
Speaker 4: and you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician.
Speaker 4: And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a
Speaker 4: music video for three minutes, and this is Andrew Tata
Speaker 4: selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only
Speaker 4: way to live.
Speaker 1: Stephanie Way's in on what we learned about the manosphere,
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, and how these forces shape the lives of
Speaker 1: young men today.
Speaker 2: These are words that get tossed around so commonly, toxic masculinity,
Speaker 2: What does it mean to be a man? What does
Speaker 2: it mean to be masculine? These are things that we
Speaker 2: see in pop culture all of the time, but at
Speaker 2: its core, what.
Speaker 1: Does it mean?
Speaker 2: What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right
Speaker 2: now of young men who don't have a total clear
Speaker 2: vision of what that's supposed to look like. We look
Speaker 2: at some of the influencers in this world and what
Speaker 2: they're tapping into is something very real, which is men
Speaker 2: want to feel masculine, they want to feel accepted, and
Speaker 2: the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed,
Speaker 2: and now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity,
Speaker 2: which again is becoming sort of this catchphrase, but what
Speaker 2: does that really mean? And I think through this process,
Speaker 2: we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity,
Speaker 2: not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling
Speaker 2: popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough. That could also be
Speaker 2: the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel
Speaker 2: like this is the place for them to learn, it's not.
Speaker 2: The place for them to learn is within the community
Speaker 2: of every life in person. And I think sometimes the
Speaker 2: men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how
Speaker 2: to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that,
Speaker 2: and that casheh is costing society a lot.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
Speaker 1: a moment. Stephanie Lai Dugger picks up with her thoughts
Speaker 1: on the self proclaimed king of the Manisphere and why,
Speaker 1: when there's such a lack of positive role models for
Speaker 1: young men, it's not at all surprising that his message
Speaker 1: finds a large audience.
Speaker 2: Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one and this
Speaker 2: man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck.
Speaker 2: So is he being charged incorrectly, or is he praying
Speaker 2: on young people who really lack a man in their lives,
Speaker 2: someone who really lacks someone to identify with. Here's this
Speaker 2: guy saying, look at me, I have money, i have influence,
Speaker 2: I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape. Women love me.
Speaker 2: Listen to me. You can see how intoxicating that might be.
Speaker 2: But we got to remember kindness counts, and true wisdom
Speaker 2: comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in
Speaker 2: the world, and that being online endlessly for hours and
Speaker 2: hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been.
Speaker 2: There's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard
Speaker 2: transition into the real world when your actual life feels
Speaker 2: like it's within your computer. We've indoctrinated a generation to
Speaker 2: actually live their lives online, we've all had to, but
Speaker 2: imagine being a young person, and now we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you can't do that. The real world is out there,
Speaker 2: even though it wasn't for so long. So I think
Speaker 2: we need to give grace to this next generation and
Speaker 2: applaud them for navigating as best as possible, and.
Speaker 1: Also give them the tools.
Speaker 2: And I think we're all doing that together. Which is
Speaker 2: why I think this particular project has affected us all
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 1: Gabriel Cristio brings a different lens to all of this.
Speaker 1: He's a producer on the series, but also a man
Speaker 1: in his early twenties, so basically he's living inside the
Speaker 1: very ecosystem we've been examining.
Speaker 3: Here's Gabriel from my own personal beliefs. I don't agree
Speaker 3: with the whole Andrew Tait persona and stick, but I
Speaker 3: came in thinking that that's what an intel was, those
Speaker 3: type of men. That's exactly what I picture when I
Speaker 3: think Intel, and knowing that it's more or so part
Speaker 3: of the red pill community, speaking with a lot of
Speaker 3: self identifying black pillars and them telling me it's a
Speaker 3: lot of red Pill stuff. Andrew Taite is not an inceel,
Speaker 3: I think is kind of what really drew that fine
Speaker 3: line in between these overlapping communities. That was a major
Speaker 3: learning curve for me.
Speaker 1: Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that
Speaker 1: surprised you?
Speaker 3: What really surprised me is how serious this is taken.
Speaker 3: I assume people were just trying to improve their health
Speaker 3: or work on themselves, you know, like you see online
Speaker 3: people changing routines or going to the gym after or
Speaker 3: a breakup to feel better. But in the in cell community,
Speaker 3: looks Maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all,
Speaker 3: you know, It's about presenting a version of themselves for
Speaker 3: someone who may or may not even be there, and
Speaker 3: it's less about personal growth and more about trying to
Speaker 3: fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense
Speaker 3: of connection.
Speaker 1: Connor Powell picks up the looks Maxing conversation and is
Speaker 1: followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Leidecker.
Speaker 4: The looks maxine and the Transmaxing where two concepts and
Speaker 4: ideas that I just hadn't really stumbled across. And I
Speaker 4: also just think it's sort of another data point of
Speaker 4: how disconnected people are in these communities, and young people
Speaker 4: in particular, and how all of these concepts from social
Speaker 4: media are just really destructive for relationships, really destructive for
Speaker 4: connection between human beings, and sometimes like part of life
Speaker 4: is talking to people, talking to your friends or family,
Speaker 4: and if your life is spent trying to achieve some
Speaker 4: sort of physical look so that it looks better on
Speaker 4: social media or tracks people, you can just see how
Speaker 4: that is really self destructive.
Speaker 1: What I was struck by is the journalist the Portughu
Speaker 1: painted was you get sucked in a little bit in
Speaker 1: looks maxing because you're already a little bit insecure, and
Speaker 1: then you are just hammered by the world of the
Speaker 1: internet telling you your ugly. It can make things so
Speaker 1: much worse.
Speaker 4: It was sad, not just that you're ugly, but then
Speaker 4: you're sort of also not manly enough. It's like you
Speaker 4: need to improve your looks, but you also need to
Speaker 4: tough enough because women only want an attractive, tough guy.
Speaker 4: It's not just attacking the way you look, it's also
Speaker 4: attacking the way you act, the way you might feel
Speaker 4: about yourself. For these people who are looking for some
Speaker 4: health and beauty tips, you know on the male side,
Speaker 4: they're almost immediately getting pounded with mental health crisis and
Speaker 4: image crisis. This is unacceptable. You must change. You are
Speaker 4: not acceptable to society, You're not acceptable to women, You're
Speaker 4: not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.
Speaker 1: Just so sad how the Internet at large. You go
Speaker 1: there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself
Speaker 1: and look, and then two clicks in, you're having the
Speaker 1: Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's such a bad mirror. It's such
Speaker 1: an unrealistic mirror too.
Speaker 2: So I don't know that I would have survived this
Speaker 2: time as a young person. It was hard enough before
Speaker 2: we had computers. You know, you lack identity. You want
Speaker 2: to fit in, you want to be beautiful, you want
Speaker 2: to be handsome, you want to be accepted, you want
Speaker 2: the cool clothes, you want to be in shape, you
Speaker 2: want to have the cash.
Speaker 1: Some of that's not completely realistic.
Speaker 2: And I think acceptance of where we are as humans
Speaker 2: and sort of digging in a little deeper than how
Speaker 2: great our hair is is an important factor. And listen,
Speaker 2: we used to say this even as young girls. Oh
Speaker 2: all the magazines, Oh the Cosmo magazines, And now the
Speaker 2: Internet it's making us all feel so small, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's hard to live up to that. And I think
Speaker 2: what we're seeing now is that men who maybe young boys,
Speaker 2: who maybe weren't under that same pressure, are really under
Speaker 2: that same pressure.
Speaker 1: And I don't know that I appreciated that quite as much.
Speaker 1: I definitely did not realize how that had increased.
Speaker 2: You talk about looks maxing, just the word alone, looks
Speaker 2: like you don't actually fit in the world unless your
Speaker 2: looks are maxed. Think about that and like, the truth
Speaker 2: is that's inaccurate. Suddenly it seems like it's not just
Speaker 2: a thing that's affecting young girls. I think it is
Speaker 2: now even Stephen, and that is not something we want
Speaker 2: to be even Stephen about. The level of equality that
Speaker 2: everyone's talking about is actually the complete opposite of what
Speaker 2: this is. There is so much space in the world
Speaker 2: for goodness and kindness and bravery and courage and hard
Speaker 2: work and consistency and determination.
Speaker 1: Those are the qualities that make for an extraordinary man.
Speaker 2: We're relying on this generation of young men to lead
Speaker 2: us into this better day.
Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is
Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Laideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Speaker 1: Jeff Tooi music by Vanicore Studios. In Cells is a
Speaker 1: production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.