WEBVTT - Behind the Scenes 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.120 From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.440 I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:10.879 A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.320 a deadly tipping point. In Cells will be added to 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:15.600 the Terrorism Guide. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.560 I see literally zero hope. 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:23.360 This is in Cells a production of KT Studios and 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:30.680 iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode twelve. Behind the scenes. 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.960 With Looks Maxine. It's all about making themselves better for 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:37.640 someone else that is not there. 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.440 You must change. You are not acceptable to society, You're 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.279 not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:45.159 aspirations are. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.879 We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.879 identity that could also be what triggers young people to 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.440 feel like this is the place for them to learn. 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.480 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT's Studios. To step 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.040 back and reflect on what we've learned making the series, 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.240 Stephanie Leideker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.039 for a producer round table. We dug into everything our 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.600 own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.080 challenged us, and now the broader manosphere shaped the stories 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:23.200 we uncovered. Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:25.959 and why now felt like the right time to do it. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.640 In Cells has been one of those projects that's been 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.560 close to my heart as a company. We've heard the 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.360 word in cells for a really long time, and it's 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.800 kind of been one of those things that we hear 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.840 about but don't totally understand fully, and over the course 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.200 of the last few years, it feels like it's one 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.160 of those words that keeps popping up again and again 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:52.280 and again. And suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.360 something that was very fringe in that nobody really heard 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.240 much about. All of a sudden, it was on the 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.880 ticker of most news shows, and maybe for reasons that 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.880 I can't quite explain. Number One Brian Coberger's case. Listen, 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.200 He's not an inceell. He's never been identified as an inceell, 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.400 but it was something that hit the ether when we 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.240 were covering that case, because that word came up so 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:15.200 many times. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.440 Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Coberger, who's serving four life 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:25.359 sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:31.120 Kylie Gonzalvez, Madison, Mogen Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle. Kid 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.080 Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.200 three seasons of the Idaho Masacre podcast. It was a 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:40.800 year's long endeavor. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.480 And again, Courtney, you and I we've been working on 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.440 cases surrounding in cells for a really long time, and 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:50.760 suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.600 that we had to dig deeper into. I mean, look, 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.800 we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.360 and we walk into a lot of dark spaces. That's 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.680 the spirit of what we do every day. This is 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.280 one that I think we all need to know more about, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.640 understand better, and it's really something just to keep us 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.280 all safe. I think the takeaway for me is that 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.919 not every in cell or someone who identifies as an 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:19.240 inceell is dangerous. Not every person who identifies as an 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.120 inceel is going to be violent. 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:21.960 We know that. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.040 However, when looking at a pocket of people on the 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.079 dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.520 that are not really monitored. So without us talking about 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.320 it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.200 or protect those that we love. 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.400 So when you talked about it, sort of preconceived notions, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.480 and my go in was every in cell was sort 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:51.000 of aggressive and hate filled. And the beautiful work that 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.720 Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying in cells, 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.120 the depth of the sadness. 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.200 And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this. I 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.080 will say too. You know, in cells to me always 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.920 had a violent underbelly, and I think now going through 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.520 this journey, it's really showing this is a real story 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.280 about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.040 the norm, which frankly is the norm. Who doesn't feel 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.479 left out, who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes right, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:27.159 So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:29.679 it will get better. As adults, we sort of learned 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.800 this because we've been forced to. But now the target 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.080 audience is young people, and I think now we can 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.479 all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently, 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:44.000 and look what we're researching online and frankly, what is 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:48.240 finding us online? It's big business. We are the commodity. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.960 We are big business. What I really see though, is 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.520 there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.640 and left out, and therefore you want to belong at 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.440 all costs. Something like this is the perfect entry. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.120 Gabriel Cristio, a producer at KT Studios, talks about his 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.839 perception of the topic of in cells at the beginning 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.839 of the series and goes on to explain how that's 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:14.880 evolved over time. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.400 I began on this project early on by reaching out 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.599 to self identifying in cells. Carolyn and I, another producer 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.360 on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.839 were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.640 ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach, 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.960 and that approach made it much easier to connect, and 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.600 it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.280 of the self identified in cells featured on this project. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.039 Going into in cells, did you have any thoughts or 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.640 preconceived notions or expectations. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.240 I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.200 in in cell meant. Once I started hearing people's personal stories, 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.520 everyone I spoke with had a different path into the 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.479 community and a different relation chip to the label. There's 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.080 a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.520 before this project. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:11.160 Whether it's Lewis or mister East or New Cold Squid, 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.880 did anything surprise you? And speaking with them. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.960 I think just how much each one wanted to have 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.640 a conversation to just speak with what they would refer 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.520 to me as enormies, but really someone who wasn't there 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.400 to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.200 and learn from their experiences. Many of them opened up 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:37.080 more than I expected for a first time interaction. One 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:38.440 of them even told me at the end of our 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.400 conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.719 except maybe for once, the void wasn't feeding into their 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:50.279 negative thoughts. It was just someone who wanted to feel heard. Right, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:54.360 So connection, Yes, connection, A lot of these self identifying 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.560 endzels were really just seeking a connection. 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.480 I have to say. That's what I feel like I 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:04.400 learned most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue, 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.120 as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection. It 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:10.920 is loneliness. It is not being heard, it is not 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:16.520 feeling like you're valued, and therefore you don't know where 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.400 to go to it except for too many places that 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:24.000 will echo and underline what you're already feeling, and a. 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.480 Lot of it is the online forums where there's not 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.000 another face behind the camera. A lot of them, I know, 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.480 did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.720 from forming a connection are their looks where looks maxing 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.480 and all that comes into place and they start trying 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.240 to change that to form the connection. And because it's 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.000 judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.480 a barrier for that connection for them to happen. Whereas 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.160 someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.920 even care, you know, which is why a lot of 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.080 these in cell forms continue to grow. 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.080 With your time on the in cell boards, was it 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.560 what you expected or were you you surprised by any 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.720 language content, any takeaways. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.960 I was surprised at how receptive they were into wanting 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.760 to speak, and as soon as I introduced myself as 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:15.240 a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.760 engage a lot of them wanted to address misconceptions, or 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.320 some of them you just wanted to share their story 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.840 and their perspectives about and sell them. I honestly expected 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.760 a lot of hostility, like I was going to be 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.640 mocked or dismissed, but instead, I think approaching with an 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.600 open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.520 of these conversations. I also learned a lot about the 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.400 nuances within these communities, the differences between Black Pill, Red Pill, 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:44.120 Blue Pill. 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.920 Investigative journalist and KAT Studio's producer, Connor Powell weighs in 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.000 on how his personal perspective has changed after working on 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.200 this podcast. He spent a lot of time on INSUL 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.480 forums as well as speaking with self identifying and CELLS 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:02.199 journalists and experts. 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.160 Anytime you sort of see like a young man who 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:12.760 is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:14.920 went along with the idea that, oh he's an inseel. 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:19.400 After researching talking to people who are self described in cells, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.319 I understand now that it's a little bit more of 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.640 a specific term, and I'm not using the word as 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.520 flippantly maybe as I would have in the past. And 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:29.320 I think I've even said to a couple of people 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.520 and like, let's be careful how we use the word intel. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.880 It describes a very specific personality and set of issues 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:37.200 that this person is going through. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.920 In speaking to the en cells, was there anything that 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:41.000 surprised you with that. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.760 I spent a lot of time on the message boards 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.040 as well, trying to sort of get a feel, and 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:51.080 there really is a wide ray of people who are 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.880 in that sort of in cell categories. There's young that 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.120 are sort of angry. There are older that are more 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.200 I don't want to say content, but are more or 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.040 sober about where they are in life. And I wasn't 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.040 really expecting for there to be such a wide array 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.560 of personalities under the banner. 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.720 Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:15.079 insul forums? 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.000 The main in cell forums were way more vile and 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.839 disgusting than I was expecting. And I say that as 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:26.360 somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.000 now is x and sees a lot of things on 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.800 social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic. The in 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.880 cell platforms are, as far as I can tell, the 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.679 worst of the worst. At the same time, I was 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:45.440 surprised that there were other communities of in cells on Facebook, Discord, 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.560 in a couple other places that were way less racist 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.160 and misogynistic than I was expecting. I do think if 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.720 you are somebody who is struggling with either in cell 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.520 culture or insul life or self described in cell. You 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.600 can go sort of down two paths. You can find 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.040 people who collectively want to improve their lot in life, 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.760 or you can go down the other path, which is 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.880 burn it all down and just be angry. But the websites, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.240 they are way more frightening than I was expecting. 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.440 You participated a lot in the episode where we talked 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.880 about the importance of the algorithm. Do you have any 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.679 sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:31.000 how it's been proved over and over? Twelve year old boys, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.000 as an example, can be easily fed this. They don't 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.400 need to go looking for this material, It goes looking 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:38.840 for them. 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:43.240 The algorithms are really frightening across the board because, as 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.640 we know with like it will force content on you 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.319 that is going to get you upset. It never forces 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.120 content on you that will increase their mental sobriety. And 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:54.800 the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.840 couple of weeks after this project was if AI is 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.440 the sort of next version of technology. It's almost like 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.920 you're going to supercharge these algorithms, and so like, what 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.319 are we going to be pushed what types of answers 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.320 to questions do we have If you look at where 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.800 technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.200 for social media, it's hard not to be really scared 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.920 about what AI is going to produce in our lives. 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.600 Because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.920 of what they're producing in the content for social media. 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.800 It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good, 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:37.360 helpful content out of the AI algorithm. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.199 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:12:40.240 --> 0:13:03.520 a moment. Connor raises an important question about the potential 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.080 of AI supercharging the push of the most harmful content 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.480 to the most vulnerable users. Stephanie picks it up from here. 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:14.679 Think about it. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.400 You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:22.160 preteen teenage years. So that's the target audience who has 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:26.640 literally no context, no perspective of the outside world. So 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.160 I got to be honest. Even as an adult who 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.080 works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.440 some of the darkest, scariest things every single day. 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.120 It turns out I didn't know anything. 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.520 I didn't even know the basics, And thankfully, through the 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.880 research here and this podcast, I feel like all of 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.360 us are wiser, are smarter, and more informed. 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.200 Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.079 business model. It changes the way you see the entire 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:01.000 online ecosystem. It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.320 and prevention. What actions do we take, who do we 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.520 turn to? Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.840 How do we work with each other to better understand 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.160 what our kids are doing, whether you have a preschooler 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.440 or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:22.120 too much time online. It's just information is power, and 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.800 I think the spirit of this is to be proactive, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.000 and thankfully we're discussing it. Honestly, we have to go 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.760 to dark corners to really see what the answers are, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:36.200 and it's uncomfortable. Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.200 and little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere, 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.320 and we're all impressionable. 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.840 The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.600 the information laid out in black and white. And then 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:53.040 also what sat with me the most was how, like 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.800 you said, this is all kind of really these groups 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:02.200 are happening everywhere in different forms starting small and coming 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.600 at children. It's an active thing that's really coming at 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.080 the next generation in general. 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.720 The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody. 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.280 We're not looking to regurgitate and blame. But it's really 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.360 powerful stuff. When you listen to a victim's mom and 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:22.320 hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected. 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.000 It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:26.840 and I think that's a spirit of all of this. 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.440 We are looking to be productive. This has been a 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:33.960 very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:38.920 proud of because it's not just one case. This is everywhere, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.320 and it's not just about in cells anymore. 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.760 The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.960 I realized as a woman. In my feed looks nothing 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.400 like what young men are seeing, and I had little 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:57.080 sense of just how popular these voices had become. Here's 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.720 investigative journalist and Katie's Studios producer Conor Powell. 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.800 The manisphere, I think, is to some extent, selling young 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:11.280 men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.440 it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:21.680 manhood is with no exceptions and really no qualifications, that 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:23.920 this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.840 not all of manhood. And it feels to me like 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.920 if they're just selling up that two hour movie escapism, 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.640 but they're selling that this is real life, and how 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.840 confusing that can be for young men and even young 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.520 women I guess as well. I mean they see this 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:40.200 stuff and think, oh, this is what a man is. 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.000 If you go down that path, you are only. 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:44.640 In a dated with that. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.440 You're not being inundated by people who are strong and 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.920 intellectually smart. You're not seeing people who are athletes scholars 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:58.320 as well. You're just onto the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.800 fast cars. Right, that's the path you go down. 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.320 I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.960 the desert to have photo shoots. They rent a Lamborghini 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.520 and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like, 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.760 we're going to take your picture and your life's going 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:13.840 to be great. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.119 It's almost like what you see having worked in like 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.760 TV production. You see music videos where these rappers or 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.800 rock bands are on the set of their music video 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.679 and there's weapons and there's sunglasses, and there's women and 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.120 then they yell cut and all that gets taken away 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.680 and you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician. 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.000 And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.680 music video for three minutes, and this is Andrew Tata 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.880 selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:40.480 way to live. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.480 Stephanie Way's in on what we learned about the manosphere, 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.879 toxic masculinity, and how these forces shape the lives of 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:49.719 young men today. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.359 These are words that get tossed around so commonly, toxic masculinity, 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.040 What does it mean to be a man? What does 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.560 it mean to be masculine? These are things that we 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.359 see in pop culture all of the time, but at 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:04.600 its core, what. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:05.240 Does it mean? 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.320 What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.600 now of young men who don't have a total clear 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.160 vision of what that's supposed to look like. We look 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.679 at some of the influencers in this world and what 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.400 they're tapping into is something very real, which is men 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.000 want to feel masculine, they want to feel accepted, and 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:28.120 the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed, 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.680 and now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.600 which again is becoming sort of this catchphrase, but what 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.280 does that really mean? And I think through this process, 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.439 we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity, 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.359 not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.440 popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough. That could also be 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.159 the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.000 like this is the place for them to learn, it's not. 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.280 The place for them to learn is within the community 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.280 of every life in person. And I think sometimes the 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:07.880 men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.679 to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that, 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.360 and that casheh is costing society a lot. 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.560 Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:44.560 a moment. Stephanie Lai Dugger picks up with her thoughts 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.879 on the self proclaimed king of the Manisphere and why, 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.480 when there's such a lack of positive role models for 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.600 young men, it's not at all surprising that his message 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:55.000 finds a large audience. 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.359 Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one and this 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.240 man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck. 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.400 So is he being charged incorrectly, or is he praying 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.480 on young people who really lack a man in their lives, 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.199 someone who really lacks someone to identify with. Here's this 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.959 guy saying, look at me, I have money, i have influence, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:23.040 I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape. Women love me. 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.800 Listen to me. You can see how intoxicating that might be. 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.720 But we got to remember kindness counts, and true wisdom 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.480 comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.800 the world, and that being online endlessly for hours and 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.320 hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.200 There's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:48.400 transition into the real world when your actual life feels 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.520 like it's within your computer. We've indoctrinated a generation to 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.679 actually live their lives online, we've all had to, but 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.400 imagine being a young person, and now we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no, 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.840 you can't do that. The real world is out there, 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.720 even though it wasn't for so long. So I think 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.159 we need to give grace to this next generation and 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.760 applaud them for navigating as best as possible, and. 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:12.960 Also give them the tools. 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.480 And I think we're all doing that together. Which is 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.320 why I think this particular project has affected us all 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:18.800 so much. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.520 Gabriel Cristio brings a different lens to all of this. 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.280 He's a producer on the series, but also a man 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.040 in his early twenties, so basically he's living inside the 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.040 very ecosystem we've been examining. 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:37.440 Here's Gabriel from my own personal beliefs. I don't agree 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.040 with the whole Andrew Tait persona and stick, but I 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.359 came in thinking that that's what an intel was, those 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.639 type of men. That's exactly what I picture when I 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:53.560 think Intel, and knowing that it's more or so part 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.480 of the red pill community, speaking with a lot of 0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:00.240 self identifying black pillars and them telling me it's a 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.679 lot of red Pill stuff. Andrew Taite is not an inceel, 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.959 I think is kind of what really drew that fine 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:10.200 line in between these overlapping communities. That was a major 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:11.280 learning curve for me. 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.400 Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:16.679 surprised you? 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.720 What really surprised me is how serious this is taken. 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:23.560 I assume people were just trying to improve their health 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.760 or work on themselves, you know, like you see online 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.960 people changing routines or going to the gym after or 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.840 a breakup to feel better. But in the in cell community, 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:36.680 looks Maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all, 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:40.680 you know, It's about presenting a version of themselves for 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.200 someone who may or may not even be there, and 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.560 it's less about personal growth and more about trying to 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.439 fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:53.160 of connection. 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.879 Connor Powell picks up the looks Maxing conversation and is 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.320 followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Leidecker. 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.760 The looks maxine and the Transmaxing where two concepts and 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.280