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Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset.

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Speaker 2: I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.

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Speaker 1: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at

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Speaker 1: a deadly tipping point. In Cells will be added to

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Speaker 1: the Terrorism Guide.

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Speaker 3: I see literally zero hope.

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Speaker 1: This is in Cells a production of KT Studios and

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Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode twelve. Behind the scenes.

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Speaker 3: With Looks Maxine. It's all about making themselves better for

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Speaker 3: someone else that is not there.

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Speaker 4: You must change. You are not acceptable to society, You're

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Speaker 4: not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your

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Speaker 4: aspirations are.

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Speaker 2: We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an

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Speaker 2: identity that could also be what triggers young people to

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Speaker 2: feel like this is the place for them to learn.

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Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT's Studios. To step

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Speaker 1: back and reflect on what we've learned making the series,

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Leideker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down

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Speaker 1: for a producer round table. We dug into everything our

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Speaker 1: own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that

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Speaker 1: challenged us, and now the broader manosphere shaped the stories

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Speaker 1: we uncovered. Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series

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Speaker 1: and why now felt like the right time to do it.

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Speaker 2: In Cells has been one of those projects that's been

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Speaker 2: close to my heart as a company. We've heard the

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Speaker 2: word in cells for a really long time, and it's

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Speaker 2: kind of been one of those things that we hear

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Speaker 2: about but don't totally understand fully, and over the course

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Speaker 2: of the last few years, it feels like it's one

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Speaker 2: of those words that keeps popping up again and again

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Speaker 2: and again. And suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like

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Speaker 2: something that was very fringe in that nobody really heard

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Speaker 2: much about. All of a sudden, it was on the

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Speaker 2: ticker of most news shows, and maybe for reasons that

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Speaker 2: I can't quite explain. Number One Brian Coberger's case. Listen,

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Speaker 2: He's not an inceell. He's never been identified as an inceell,

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Speaker 2: but it was something that hit the ether when we

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Speaker 2: were covering that case, because that word came up so

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Speaker 2: many times.

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Speaker 1: Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Coberger, who's serving four life

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Speaker 1: sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students.

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Speaker 1: Kylie Gonzalvez, Madison, Mogen Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle. Kid

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Speaker 1: Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and

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Speaker 1: three seasons of the Idaho Masacre podcast. It was a

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Speaker 1: year's long endeavor.

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Speaker 2: And again, Courtney, you and I we've been working on

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Speaker 2: cases surrounding in cells for a really long time, and

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Speaker 2: suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things

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Speaker 2: that we had to dig deeper into. I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries

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Speaker 2: and we walk into a lot of dark spaces. That's

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Speaker 2: the spirit of what we do every day. This is

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Speaker 2: one that I think we all need to know more about,

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Speaker 2: understand better, and it's really something just to keep us

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Speaker 2: all safe. I think the takeaway for me is that

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Speaker 2: not every in cell or someone who identifies as an

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Speaker 2: inceell is dangerous. Not every person who identifies as an

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Speaker 2: inceel is going to be violent.

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Speaker 1: We know that.

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Speaker 2: However, when looking at a pocket of people on the

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Speaker 2: dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places

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Speaker 2: that are not really monitored. So without us talking about

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Speaker 2: it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves

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Speaker 2: or protect those that we love.

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Speaker 1: So when you talked about it, sort of preconceived notions,

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Speaker 1: and my go in was every in cell was sort

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Speaker 1: of aggressive and hate filled. And the beautiful work that

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Speaker 1: Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying in cells,

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Speaker 1: the depth of the sadness.

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Speaker 2: And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this. I

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Speaker 2: will say too. You know, in cells to me always

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Speaker 2: had a violent underbelly, and I think now going through

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Speaker 2: this journey, it's really showing this is a real story

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Speaker 2: about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of

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Speaker 2: the norm, which frankly is the norm. Who doesn't feel

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Speaker 2: left out, who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes right,

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Speaker 2: So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that

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Speaker 2: it will get better. As adults, we sort of learned

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Speaker 2: this because we've been forced to. But now the target

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Speaker 2: audience is young people, and I think now we can

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Speaker 2: all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently,

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Speaker 2: and look what we're researching online and frankly, what is

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Speaker 2: finding us online? It's big business. We are the commodity.

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Speaker 2: We are big business. What I really see though, is

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Speaker 2: there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised

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Speaker 2: and left out, and therefore you want to belong at

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Speaker 2: all costs. Something like this is the perfect entry.

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Speaker 1: Gabriel Cristio, a producer at KT Studios, talks about his

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Speaker 1: perception of the topic of in cells at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the series and goes on to explain how that's

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Speaker 1: evolved over time.

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Speaker 3: I began on this project early on by reaching out

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Speaker 3: to self identifying in cells. Carolyn and I, another producer

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Speaker 3: on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them

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Speaker 3: were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I

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Speaker 3: ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach,

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Speaker 3: and that approach made it much easier to connect, and

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Speaker 3: it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most

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Speaker 3: of the self identified in cells featured on this project.

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Speaker 1: Going into in cells, did you have any thoughts or

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Speaker 1: preconceived notions or expectations.

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Speaker 3: I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what

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Speaker 3: in in cell meant. Once I started hearing people's personal stories,

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Speaker 3: everyone I spoke with had a different path into the

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Speaker 3: community and a different relation chip to the label. There's

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Speaker 3: a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand

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Speaker 3: before this project.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's Lewis or mister East or New Cold Squid,

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Speaker 1: did anything surprise you? And speaking with them.

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Speaker 3: I think just how much each one wanted to have

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Speaker 3: a conversation to just speak with what they would refer

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Speaker 3: to me as enormies, but really someone who wasn't there

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Speaker 3: to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know,

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Speaker 3: and learn from their experiences. Many of them opened up

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Speaker 3: more than I expected for a first time interaction. One

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Speaker 3: of them even told me at the end of our

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Speaker 3: conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void,

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Speaker 3: except maybe for once, the void wasn't feeding into their

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Speaker 3: negative thoughts. It was just someone who wanted to feel heard. Right,

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Speaker 3: So connection, Yes, connection, A lot of these self identifying

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Speaker 3: endzels were really just seeking a connection.

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Speaker 1: I have to say. That's what I feel like I

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Speaker 1: learned most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue,

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Speaker 1: as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection. It

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Speaker 1: is loneliness. It is not being heard, it is not

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Speaker 1: feeling like you're valued, and therefore you don't know where

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Speaker 1: to go to it except for too many places that

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Speaker 1: will echo and underline what you're already feeling, and a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of it is the online forums where there's not

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Speaker 3: another face behind the camera. A lot of them, I know,

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Speaker 3: did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them

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Speaker 3: from forming a connection are their looks where looks maxing

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Speaker 3: and all that comes into place and they start trying

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Speaker 3: to change that to form the connection. And because it's

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Speaker 3: judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates

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Speaker 3: a barrier for that connection for them to happen. Whereas

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Speaker 3: someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not

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Speaker 3: even care, you know, which is why a lot of

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Speaker 3: these in cell forms continue to grow.

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Speaker 1: With your time on the in cell boards, was it

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Speaker 1: what you expected or were you you surprised by any

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Speaker 1: language content, any takeaways.

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Speaker 3: I was surprised at how receptive they were into wanting

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Speaker 3: to speak, and as soon as I introduced myself as

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Speaker 3: a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to

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Speaker 3: engage a lot of them wanted to address misconceptions, or

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Speaker 3: some of them you just wanted to share their story

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Speaker 3: and their perspectives about and sell them. I honestly expected

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Speaker 3: a lot of hostility, like I was going to be

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Speaker 3: mocked or dismissed, but instead, I think approaching with an

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Speaker 3: open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot

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Speaker 3: of these conversations. I also learned a lot about the

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Speaker 3: nuances within these communities, the differences between Black Pill, Red Pill,

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Speaker 3: Blue Pill.

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Speaker 1: Investigative journalist and KAT Studio's producer, Connor Powell weighs in

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Speaker 1: on how his personal perspective has changed after working on

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Speaker 1: this podcast. He spent a lot of time on INSUL

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Speaker 1: forums as well as speaking with self identifying and CELLS

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Speaker 1: journalists and experts.

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Speaker 4: Anytime you sort of see like a young man who

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Speaker 4: is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of

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Speaker 4: went along with the idea that, oh he's an inseel.

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Speaker 4: After researching talking to people who are self described in cells,

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Speaker 4: I understand now that it's a little bit more of

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Speaker 4: a specific term, and I'm not using the word as

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Speaker 4: flippantly maybe as I would have in the past. And

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Speaker 4: I think I've even said to a couple of people

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Speaker 4: and like, let's be careful how we use the word intel.

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Speaker 4: It describes a very specific personality and set of issues

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Speaker 4: that this person is going through.

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Speaker 1: In speaking to the en cells, was there anything that

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Speaker 1: surprised you with that.

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Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time on the message boards

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Speaker 4: as well, trying to sort of get a feel, and

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Speaker 4: there really is a wide ray of people who are

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Speaker 4: in that sort of in cell categories. There's young that

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Speaker 4: are sort of angry. There are older that are more

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Speaker 4: I don't want to say content, but are more or

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Speaker 4: sober about where they are in life. And I wasn't

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Speaker 4: really expecting for there to be such a wide array

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Speaker 4: of personalities under the banner.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on

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Speaker 1: insul forums?

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Speaker 4: The main in cell forums were way more vile and

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Speaker 4: disgusting than I was expecting. And I say that as

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Speaker 4: somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and

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Speaker 4: now is x and sees a lot of things on

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Speaker 4: social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic. The in

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Speaker 4: cell platforms are, as far as I can tell, the

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Speaker 4: worst of the worst. At the same time, I was

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Speaker 4: surprised that there were other communities of in cells on Facebook, Discord,

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Speaker 4: in a couple other places that were way less racist

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Speaker 4: and misogynistic than I was expecting. I do think if

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Speaker 4: you are somebody who is struggling with either in cell

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Speaker 4: culture or insul life or self described in cell. You

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Speaker 4: can go sort of down two paths. You can find

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Speaker 4: people who collectively want to improve their lot in life,

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Speaker 4: or you can go down the other path, which is

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Speaker 4: burn it all down and just be angry. But the websites,

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Speaker 4: they are way more frightening than I was expecting.

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Speaker 1: You participated a lot in the episode where we talked

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Speaker 1: about the importance of the algorithm. Do you have any

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Speaker 1: sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly

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Speaker 1: how it's been proved over and over? Twelve year old boys,

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Speaker 1: as an example, can be easily fed this. They don't

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Speaker 1: need to go looking for this material, It goes looking

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Speaker 1: for them.

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Speaker 4: The algorithms are really frightening across the board because, as

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Speaker 4: we know with like it will force content on you

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Speaker 4: that is going to get you upset. It never forces

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Speaker 4: content on you that will increase their mental sobriety. And

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Speaker 4: the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last

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Speaker 4: couple of weeks after this project was if AI is

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Speaker 4: the sort of next version of technology. It's almost like

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Speaker 4: you're going to supercharge these algorithms, and so like, what

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Speaker 4: are we going to be pushed what types of answers

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Speaker 4: to questions do we have If you look at where

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Speaker 4: technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms

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Speaker 4: for social media, it's hard not to be really scared

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Speaker 4: about what AI is going to produce in our lives.

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Speaker 4: Because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms

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Speaker 4: of what they're producing in the content for social media.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good,

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Speaker 4: helpful content out of the AI algorithm.

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Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in

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Speaker 1: a moment. Connor raises an important question about the potential

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Speaker 1: of AI supercharging the push of the most harmful content

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Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable users. Stephanie picks it up from here.

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Speaker 1: Think about it.

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Speaker 2: You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable

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Speaker 2: preteen teenage years. So that's the target audience who has

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Speaker 2: literally no context, no perspective of the outside world. So

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Speaker 2: I got to be honest. Even as an adult who

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Speaker 2: works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear

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Speaker 2: some of the darkest, scariest things every single day.

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Speaker 1: It turns out I didn't know anything.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even know the basics, And thankfully, through the

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Speaker 2: research here and this podcast, I feel like all of

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Speaker 2: us are wiser, are smarter, and more informed.

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Speaker 1: Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the

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Speaker 1: business model. It changes the way you see the entire

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Speaker 1: online ecosystem. It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility

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Speaker 1: and prevention. What actions do we take, who do we

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Speaker 1: turn to? Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward.

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Speaker 2: How do we work with each other to better understand

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Speaker 2: what our kids are doing, whether you have a preschooler

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Speaker 2: or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending

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Speaker 2: too much time online. It's just information is power, and

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Speaker 2: I think the spirit of this is to be proactive,

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Speaker 2: and thankfully we're discussing it. Honestly, we have to go

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Speaker 2: to dark corners to really see what the answers are,

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Speaker 2: and it's uncomfortable. Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor,

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Speaker 2: and little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and we're all impressionable.

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Speaker 1: The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having

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Speaker 1: the information laid out in black and white. And then

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Speaker 1: also what sat with me the most was how, like

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Speaker 1: you said, this is all kind of really these groups

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Speaker 1: are happening everywhere in different forms starting small and coming

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Speaker 1: at children. It's an active thing that's really coming at

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Speaker 1: the next generation in general.

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Speaker 2: The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody.

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Speaker 2: We're not looking to regurgitate and blame. But it's really

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Speaker 2: powerful stuff. When you listen to a victim's mom and

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Speaker 2: hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected.

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Speaker 2: It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's a spirit of all of this.

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Speaker 2: We are looking to be productive. This has been a

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Speaker 2: very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly

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Speaker 2: proud of because it's not just one case. This is everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and it's not just about in cells anymore.

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Speaker 1: The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than

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Speaker 1: I realized as a woman. In my feed looks nothing

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Speaker 1: like what young men are seeing, and I had little

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Speaker 1: sense of just how popular these voices had become. Here's

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Speaker 1: investigative journalist and Katie's Studios producer Conor Powell.

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Speaker 4: The manisphere, I think, is to some extent, selling young

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Speaker 4: men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo,

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Speaker 4: it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what

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Speaker 4: manhood is with no exceptions and really no qualifications, that

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Speaker 4: this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe

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Speaker 4: not all of manhood. And it feels to me like

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Speaker 4: if they're just selling up that two hour movie escapism,

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Speaker 4: but they're selling that this is real life, and how

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Speaker 4: confusing that can be for young men and even young

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Speaker 4: women I guess as well. I mean they see this

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Speaker 4: stuff and think, oh, this is what a man is.

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Speaker 4: If you go down that path, you are only.

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Speaker 3: In a dated with that.

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Speaker 4: You're not being inundated by people who are strong and

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Speaker 4: intellectually smart. You're not seeing people who are athletes scholars

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Speaker 4: as well. You're just onto the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma,

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Speaker 4: fast cars. Right, that's the path you go down.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to

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Speaker 1: the desert to have photo shoots. They rent a Lamborghini

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Speaker 1: and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take your picture and your life's going

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Speaker 1: to be great.

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Speaker 4: It's almost like what you see having worked in like

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Speaker 4: TV production. You see music videos where these rappers or

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Speaker 4: rock bands are on the set of their music video

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Speaker 4: and there's weapons and there's sunglasses, and there's women and

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Speaker 4: then they yell cut and all that gets taken away

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Speaker 4: and you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician.

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Speaker 4: And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a

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Speaker 4: music video for three minutes, and this is Andrew Tata

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Speaker 4: selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only

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Speaker 4: way to live.

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Way's in on what we learned about the manosphere,

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Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, and how these forces shape the lives of

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Speaker 1: young men today.

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Speaker 2: These are words that get tossed around so commonly, toxic masculinity,

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Speaker 2: What does it mean to be a man? What does

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Speaker 2: it mean to be masculine? These are things that we

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Speaker 2: see in pop culture all of the time, but at

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Speaker 2: its core, what.

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Speaker 1: Does it mean?

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Speaker 2: What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right

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Speaker 2: now of young men who don't have a total clear

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Speaker 2: vision of what that's supposed to look like. We look

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Speaker 2: at some of the influencers in this world and what

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Speaker 2: they're tapping into is something very real, which is men

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Speaker 2: want to feel masculine, they want to feel accepted, and

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Speaker 2: the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed,

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Speaker 2: and now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity,

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Speaker 2: which again is becoming sort of this catchphrase, but what

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Speaker 2: does that really mean? And I think through this process,

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Speaker 2: we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity,

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Speaker 2: not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling

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Speaker 2: popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough. That could also be

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Speaker 2: the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel

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Speaker 2: like this is the place for them to learn, it's not.

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Speaker 2: The place for them to learn is within the community

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Speaker 2: of every life in person. And I think sometimes the

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Speaker 2: men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how

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Speaker 2: to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that,

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Speaker 2: and that casheh is costing society a lot.

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Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in

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Speaker 1: a moment. Stephanie Lai Dugger picks up with her thoughts

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Speaker 1: on the self proclaimed king of the Manisphere and why,

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Speaker 1: when there's such a lack of positive role models for

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Speaker 1: young men, it's not at all surprising that his message

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Speaker 1: finds a large audience.

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Speaker 2: Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one and this

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Speaker 2: man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck.

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Speaker 2: So is he being charged incorrectly, or is he praying

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Speaker 2: on young people who really lack a man in their lives,

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Speaker 2: someone who really lacks someone to identify with. Here's this

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Speaker 2: guy saying, look at me, I have money, i have influence,

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Speaker 2: I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape. Women love me.

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Speaker 2: Listen to me. You can see how intoxicating that might be.

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Speaker 2: But we got to remember kindness counts, and true wisdom

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Speaker 2: comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in

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Speaker 2: the world, and that being online endlessly for hours and

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Speaker 2: hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been.

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Speaker 2: There's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard

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Speaker 2: transition into the real world when your actual life feels

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Speaker 2: like it's within your computer. We've indoctrinated a generation to

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Speaker 2: actually live their lives online, we've all had to, but

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Speaker 2: imagine being a young person, and now we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: you can't do that. The real world is out there,

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Speaker 2: even though it wasn't for so long. So I think

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Speaker 2: we need to give grace to this next generation and

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Speaker 2: applaud them for navigating as best as possible, and.

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Speaker 1: Also give them the tools.

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Speaker 2: And I think we're all doing that together. Which is

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Speaker 2: why I think this particular project has affected us all

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Speaker 2: so much.

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Speaker 1: Gabriel Cristio brings a different lens to all of this.

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Speaker 1: He's a producer on the series, but also a man

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Speaker 1: in his early twenties, so basically he's living inside the

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Speaker 1: very ecosystem we've been examining.

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Speaker 3: Here's Gabriel from my own personal beliefs. I don't agree

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Speaker 3: with the whole Andrew Tait persona and stick, but I

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Speaker 3: came in thinking that that's what an intel was, those

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Speaker 3: type of men. That's exactly what I picture when I

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Speaker 3: think Intel, and knowing that it's more or so part

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Speaker 3: of the red pill community, speaking with a lot of

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Speaker 3: self identifying black pillars and them telling me it's a

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Speaker 3: lot of red Pill stuff. Andrew Taite is not an inceel,

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Speaker 3: I think is kind of what really drew that fine

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Speaker 3: line in between these overlapping communities. That was a major

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Speaker 3: learning curve for me.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that

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Speaker 1: surprised you?

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Speaker 3: What really surprised me is how serious this is taken.

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Speaker 3: I assume people were just trying to improve their health

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Speaker 3: or work on themselves, you know, like you see online

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Speaker 3: people changing routines or going to the gym after or

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Speaker 3: a breakup to feel better. But in the in cell community,

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Speaker 3: looks Maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all,

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Speaker 3: you know, It's about presenting a version of themselves for

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Speaker 3: someone who may or may not even be there, and

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Speaker 3: it's less about personal growth and more about trying to

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Speaker 3: fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense

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Speaker 3: of connection.

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Speaker 1: Connor Powell picks up the looks Maxing conversation and is

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Speaker 1: followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Leidecker.

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Speaker 4: The looks maxine and the Transmaxing where two concepts and

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Speaker 4: ideas that I just hadn't really stumbled across. And I

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Speaker 4: also just think it's sort of another data point of

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Speaker 4: how disconnected people are in these communities, and young people

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Speaker 4: in particular, and how all of these concepts from social

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Speaker 4: media are just really destructive for relationships, really destructive for

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Speaker 4: connection between human beings, and sometimes like part of life

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Speaker 4: is talking to people, talking to your friends or family,

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Speaker 4: and if your life is spent trying to achieve some

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Speaker 4: sort of physical look so that it looks better on

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Speaker 4: social media or tracks people, you can just see how

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Speaker 4: that is really self destructive.

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Speaker 1: What I was struck by is the journalist the Portughu

413
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Speaker 1: painted was you get sucked in a little bit in

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Speaker 1: looks maxing because you're already a little bit insecure, and

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Speaker 1: then you are just hammered by the world of the

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Speaker 1: internet telling you your ugly. It can make things so

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Speaker 1: much worse.

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Speaker 4: It was sad, not just that you're ugly, but then

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Speaker 4: you're sort of also not manly enough. It's like you

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Speaker 4: need to improve your looks, but you also need to

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Speaker 4: tough enough because women only want an attractive, tough guy.

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Speaker 4: It's not just attacking the way you look, it's also

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Speaker 4: attacking the way you act, the way you might feel

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Speaker 4: about yourself. For these people who are looking for some

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Speaker 4: health and beauty tips, you know on the male side,

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Speaker 4: they're almost immediately getting pounded with mental health crisis and

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Speaker 4: image crisis. This is unacceptable. You must change. You are

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Speaker 4: not acceptable to society, You're not acceptable to women, You're

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Speaker 4: not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.

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Speaker 1: Just so sad how the Internet at large. You go

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Speaker 1: there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself

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Speaker 1: and look, and then two clicks in, you're having the

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Speaker 1: Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous,

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Speaker 1: and it's just it's such a bad mirror. It's such

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Speaker 1: an unrealistic mirror too.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know that I would have survived this

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Speaker 2: time as a young person. It was hard enough before

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Speaker 2: we had computers. You know, you lack identity. You want

439
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: to fit in, you want to be beautiful, you want

440
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 2: to be handsome, you want to be accepted, you want

441
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: the cool clothes, you want to be in shape, you

442
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: want to have the cash.

443
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: Some of that's not completely realistic.

444
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: And I think acceptance of where we are as humans

445
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: and sort of digging in a little deeper than how

446
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: great our hair is is an important factor. And listen,

447
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: we used to say this even as young girls. Oh

448
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: all the magazines, Oh the Cosmo magazines, And now the

449
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: Internet it's making us all feel so small, and yeah,

450
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: it's hard to live up to that. And I think

451
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: what we're seeing now is that men who maybe young boys,

452
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: who maybe weren't under that same pressure, are really under

453
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: that same pressure.

454
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: And I don't know that I appreciated that quite as much.

455
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: I definitely did not realize how that had increased.

456
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,719
Speaker 2: You talk about looks maxing, just the word alone, looks

457
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: like you don't actually fit in the world unless your

458
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: looks are maxed. Think about that and like, the truth

459
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: is that's inaccurate. Suddenly it seems like it's not just

460
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: a thing that's affecting young girls. I think it is

461
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: now even Stephen, and that is not something we want

462
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 2: to be even Stephen about. The level of equality that

463
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: everyone's talking about is actually the complete opposite of what

464
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: this is. There is so much space in the world

465
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: for goodness and kindness and bravery and courage and hard

466
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: work and consistency and determination.

467
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: Those are the qualities that make for an extraordinary man.

468
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: We're relying on this generation of young men to lead

469
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: us into this better day.

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00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow

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00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is

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00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Laideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.

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00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by

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00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: Jeff Tooi music by Vanicore Studios. In Cells is a

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00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts

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00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.