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Speaker 1: No motive, no murder, weapon, no suspect. What are we

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Speaker 1: talking about this this hour? We are tracking breaking news.

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Speaker 1: Just a moment ago, Moscow police confirmed four people were

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Speaker 1: found dead in a home just steps away from the

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Speaker 1: University of Idaho campus. Right now, we're continuing to work

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Speaker 1: to get more details tonight. We know that students were

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Speaker 1: ordered to shelter in place for a time this afternoon

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Speaker 1: because of the scenes proximity to campus. Breaking news out

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Speaker 1: of Moscow, Idaho, the bodies of four University of Idaho

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Speaker 1: students discovered in a house just steps away from campus.

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Speaker 1: Those students were discovered just yesterday afternoon in a neighborhood

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Speaker 1: near Greek Row on campus. Earlier today, the university released

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Speaker 1: the identities of the victims found in that house, twenty

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Speaker 1: year old Ethan Shapin from Conway, Washington, twenty one year

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Speaker 1: old Madison Mogan from Courtlane, twenty year old Zanna Zernodle

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Speaker 1: from Post Falls, and twenty one year old Kaylee Gonzalez

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Speaker 1: from Wrath from Idaho. You were just hearing our friends

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Speaker 1: at k r E M at this hour the mystery

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Speaker 1: surrounding the knife murders of four young students at University,

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Speaker 1: Idaho still unsolved. As a matter of fact, in the

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Speaker 1: last hours, we are learning new information about the quadruple

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Speaker 1: murder of these young students. According to Steve Gonzalvis, the

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Speaker 1: father of Kiley, he says, quote, the murders were fast,

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Speaker 1: no one suffered or felt pain. He shares how his

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Speaker 1: daughter came home in an earn listen. Steve Gonzalve is

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Speaker 1: the father of one of the victims, twenty one year

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Speaker 1: old Kayley, now shedding new light on what happened that

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Speaker 1: night in his first sit down in review. It was fast,

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Speaker 1: and nobody suffered and nobody felt like that kind of pain.

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Speaker 1: Officials maintain the murders happened between three and four am,

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Speaker 1: and that the first nine one one call was made

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Speaker 1: around noon. Just hours later, Steve was informed of his

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Speaker 1: daughter's death, not by police, but by family members on campus.

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Speaker 1: Let's call Maddie and then you realize Maddie's gone to Madison.

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Speaker 1: Mogen was Kaylee's lifelong best friend. You can't imagine sending

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Speaker 1: your girl to college and then they come back in

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Speaker 1: you know, and you earned. And now the families of

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Speaker 1: the victims, growing frustrated by the lack of answers. I

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Speaker 1: haven't earned the ability to to grieve the way that

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Speaker 1: I want to grieve. I want to be able to

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Speaker 1: have justice first, that from our friends Aunt GMA. As

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Speaker 1: pressure is mounting and fears swirling, the university community still

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Speaker 1: have no line on a suspect. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Series X one eleven. We do know, However,

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Speaker 1: certain individuals have been ruled out. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: Captain Roger Lanaire. We do not believe the following individuals

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Speaker 1: are involved in this crime. The two surviving roommates, a

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Speaker 1: mail scene at the Grub Truck food vendor downtown, specifically

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Speaker 1: wearing a white hoodie, a private party who provided rides

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Speaker 1: home to Kaylee and Madison in the early morning hour

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Speaker 1: of November thirteenth. Additionally, the identity of the nine one

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Speaker 1: one caller and the nine one one call have not

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Speaker 1: been released, so any information out there's speculation about that.

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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star to make sense of what

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Speaker 1: we know right now. We do know the nine one

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Speaker 1: one call has not yet been released, and in the

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Speaker 1: last hours, Chief James Fry from the Moscow Police tries

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Speaker 1: to answer that question. Listen, Gotti Schwartz, NBC New is

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Speaker 1: just following up on the nine one one call. You

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Speaker 1: said that you don't believe that's the killer. Can you

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Speaker 1: conclusively rule out the person that called nine one one

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Speaker 1: from inside the home as a suspect in this case?

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Speaker 1: Can you, gad Of, just ask that one more time? Please? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the person that was inside the home that called nine

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Speaker 1: one one, that was not one of the roommates, can

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Speaker 1: you conclusively rule that person out as a suspect at

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Speaker 1: this point, I don't think I said that it wasn't

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Speaker 1: one of the roommates. I said that it was used

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Speaker 1: with the roommates phone. I believe somebody asked if that

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Speaker 1: was the killer and you said no, No, that's correct.

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Speaker 1: Bottom line, the nine one one call has not yet

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Speaker 1: been released, So what do we know? First of all,

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Speaker 1: to Nicholas Bogel Burrows, national reporter in New York Times,

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Speaker 1: joining he is there on the scene in Moscow. Nicholas,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What is the latest? Seemingly,

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Speaker 1: all the news we're getting out of Idaho is that

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Speaker 1: we don't have any news. Yeah, I mean, it's this

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Speaker 1: investigation is now in the third week, students are coming

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Speaker 1: back to campus in Moscow. A lot of them told

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Speaker 1: me yesterday they're they're really scared. They you know, are

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Speaker 1: taking all kinds of extra precautions. But like you're saying,

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Speaker 1: the police have really given no solid information about, you know,

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Speaker 1: who might have done this or why at this point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to go straight out to a special guest

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Speaker 1: joining us Kathleen Canning, mellow former FBI unit chief thirty

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Speaker 1: one years ten of those with the Behavioral Analysis Unit

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Speaker 1: currently in Structure University, North Carolina, Wilmington. Kathleen, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for being with us. I know you just

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Speaker 1: heard our friends from the New York Times joining us

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Speaker 1: from Moscow. He's saying, we don't know who the suspect

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Speaker 1: could be. Now compared to you, we're all amateurs. But

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Speaker 1: I think we can go out on a limb and

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Speaker 1: say it is a white male because typically killers kill

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Speaker 1: within their own race, and because women typically statistically do

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Speaker 1: not commit mass murder with a knife, which narrows it

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Speaker 1: down to a white male within the orbit of at

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Speaker 1: least one of these four victims. You're the expert. I

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Speaker 1: want to hear your analysis to me. All of the

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Speaker 1: information thus far points to a math killing event. So

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Speaker 1: what do we know about math killing? Math killing the

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Speaker 1: killing the three or more people during an event with

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Speaker 1: no cooling off period, right, And what is the motive

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Speaker 1: for math killing? Typically it's the revenge motive, which is

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Speaker 1: I think why the police came out early. Things a

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Speaker 1: targeted attack and oftentimes the initial stimulus for this uncontained

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Speaker 1: rage of probably, like you're saying, Nancy, a white male,

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Speaker 1: is a perception of some real or imagine shame producing

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Speaker 1: injury or insult or disappointment that possibly one of the

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Speaker 1: victims had had made whether it was a side comment

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Speaker 1: to this individual, They may have known this individual or

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Speaker 1: may not have. It could have been a stranger that

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Speaker 1: they had made a comment to. And what we know

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Speaker 1: about mass killers is they are often injustice collectors. Right,

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Speaker 1: So this was just one more insult on top of

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Speaker 1: many insults this person has experienced, and that person feels

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Speaker 1: like vengeance is their own contribution. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: some there are some things that we can say that

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Speaker 1: I think the public can help. Right. Well, we know

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Speaker 1: about mass killers is oftentimes big week. Right. What do

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Speaker 1: we mean by week means they give information about their

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Speaker 1: intended plans, whether that be via social media postings or

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Speaker 1: via poetry or writings or drawings that other people may

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Speaker 1: observe or may have observed before the attack occurred. And

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Speaker 1: we do know that mass killers usually plan their activities,

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Speaker 1: so I think there's some information that we can try

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Speaker 1: to get from the public. We can talk about post

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Speaker 1: offense behavior as well that other people may have observed

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Speaker 1: and maybe they unknowingly didn't you know, connect either. So

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Speaker 1: that's that's sort of my initial standing on this case. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's why Jencie from the fire hydrate right there. That

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Speaker 1: was a lot of information, too much, too fast. I

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Speaker 1: tried to take in everything you were saying. I say,

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Speaker 1: one issue, and I'm sure you can explain this. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go to doctor Jerry craw and joining US psychologist

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Speaker 1: Professor Saint Leo University and author doctor Jorry. I hear

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Speaker 1: what Kathleen Canning, mellow former FBI behavioral analysts, said that

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Speaker 1: this activity could have been planned, okay, which means brought

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Speaker 1: the knife and planned to lash out at one target.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, how does that jive with the

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Speaker 1: theory that this was a rage killing, Because when you're

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Speaker 1: in a rage, you're not really planning anything. Well, you

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Speaker 1: have to understand rage. Okay, anger is different than rage.

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Speaker 1: What brings about rage is what's called a paranoia shift.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you know, crossing and canning mellow.

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Speaker 1: I can't take the notes as quickly as you're talking. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm back in law school. Okay, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, did you say what shifting? A paranoid shifting?

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Speaker 1: Paranoid shifting shifting? Okay, everybody start taking notes because I

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Speaker 1: cannot keep up with these two go go go go.

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Speaker 1: Which she was also describing was the like, say, a

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Speaker 1: narcissistic personality, they have a wounded ego. They will carry

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Speaker 1: that and that festers. And that's where you know, if

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Speaker 1: they get a target, and it can be somebody as

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Speaker 1: simple as a looking across the bar and somebody just

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Speaker 1: given you a bad look. If you're a narcissistic, you know, individual,

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Speaker 1: that could wound your ego and you could become very violent.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've had bar fights and murders on that

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Speaker 1: type of behavior and that response. You know. I want

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Speaker 1: to also clarify the difference between an in cell, which

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Kenny Mello mentioned involuntary celibate. That theory has come

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Speaker 1: up several times. That is the killer, an involuntary celibate

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Speaker 1: who basically sees the war world through the lens of misogyny,

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Speaker 1: hating women. And you know it's really odd. My son

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Speaker 1: and daughter, they're twins, were fifteen, and my son came

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Speaker 1: home the other day and was talking about one of

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Speaker 1: his friends who seems perfectly wonderful, and the friends said,

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Speaker 1: all women are liars, they're all deceivers, because he basically

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Speaker 1: got turned down a couple of times for Hoko translation homecoming,

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Speaker 1: all right, So he's just a kid already thinking women

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Speaker 1: are deceivers. And I've been researching in cells and they

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Speaker 1: have names, stereotypical names, like someone is a Stacy, certain guys,

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Speaker 1: jocks have their name, and it's just fueled with hatred.

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Speaker 1: I'm not so sure this is an in cell since

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Speaker 1: they're few and far between that actually commit murder or

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Speaker 1: someone that, as doctor Jerry Crossen and Kathleen Kenny Melloe

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Speaker 1: were pointing out, were and I'm using quoties, insulted, probably

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Speaker 1: not really insulted, but in their minds they were insulted

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Speaker 1: or rejected. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Jess goot Morgan

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Speaker 1: joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit

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Speaker 1: series Bodybags, with Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, you heard

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Speaker 1: Kathleen and doctor Jory speaking. How does their analysis jibe

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Speaker 1: with what we know about the scene. Well, from my perspective,

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Speaker 1: what I'm taking away from this is that I believe

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Speaker 1: that the individual showed up purposed they had this knife,

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Speaker 1: because they're given a very specific description of this weapon.

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Speaker 1: I think that they showed up with this weapon in

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Speaker 1: hand in order to essentially commit a slaughter in here.

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Speaker 1: So you think they showed up meaning to kill more

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Speaker 1: than one person or meaning to kill the target. I

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Speaker 1: think probably killing the target. And I think perhaps that

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Speaker 1: everybody else was peripheral. But while they were there, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if someone alerted to the presence. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, hold on, I need your analysis. But

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Speaker 1: to Nicholas Bogel Burrows joining me, National reporter, New York Times,

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Speaker 1: they're on the scene, Nicholas, I want to analyze what

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott just said. I don't see how the others

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Speaker 1: could be alerted because, based on what the coroner said,

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Speaker 1: some of them were asleep, some of them fought back,

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Speaker 1: some of them obviously we're in bed at the time,

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Speaker 1: so they had been alerted, they would have still been

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Speaker 1: in bed, would they. I mean, are you getting any information?

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Speaker 1: What can you tell us or refresh our recollection regarding

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Speaker 1: where the victims were right? So this home in Moscow,

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Speaker 1: it's just off campus. It's a three story home. There

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Speaker 1: are two bedrooms on each floor, and what we've heard

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Speaker 1: from the authorities is that all four victims were found

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Speaker 1: on the second and third floors. We don't know exactly

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Speaker 1: which bedrooms, and we know that the coroner has said

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Speaker 1: that she believed that they were likely all sleeping at

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Speaker 1: the time of the attack. She has also said that

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Speaker 1: at least one of them appeared to have fought back.

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Speaker 1: So what that means to me is that you know,

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Speaker 1: they were all asleep when this attack occurred, but maybe

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Speaker 1: one of them woke up during the attack and tried

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Speaker 1: to defend themselves. But we know that there were the

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Speaker 1: two surviving roommates elsewhere in the home, and that I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've talked about it a lot. They did not

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Speaker 1: realize that this had happened until hours later. And so

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Speaker 1: based on what Nicholas Bogglet Burrows is stating, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they were alerted because they were still

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Speaker 1: in their beds. And plus you have to think about

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Speaker 1: the structure of the split level. Nancy, that's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: If we could get our control room to show. There's

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Speaker 1: one particular picture, Jackie, if you could send that again

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Speaker 1: right now, and it's really good, Joe Scott. It shows

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Speaker 1: you can look at this house. And David Leroy joining me,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Boise, Idaho, former Idaho Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: former lieutenant governor, former prosecutor. You can find him at

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Speaker 1: de leroy dot com. David, you're very familiar with this house.

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Speaker 1: You've been in the house, and I noticed that, David,

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Speaker 1: if you look at it from one angle, coming in

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Speaker 1: on the floor where there's a sliding glass door, you

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Speaker 1: don't really even see the bottom floor. If you come

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Speaker 1: in from the first level, there's two ways to get

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Speaker 1: to it. The first level you see the I guess

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Speaker 1: call it the front door with the code you have

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Speaker 1: to use to get in. I believe the killer came

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Speaker 1: in through the second level, which was also ground level.

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Speaker 1: I like that picture Halley where it shows level one,

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Speaker 1: two and three. I mean the sliding glass door of

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Speaker 1: the second level was actually at ground level, as was

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Speaker 1: the first front door. But you commence a split level home,

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Speaker 1: you come in from two vantage points, from two entrances,

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Speaker 1: and I believe the killer never went downstairs to the

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Speaker 1: I guess I would say basement level where the other

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Speaker 1: two roommates were asleep. David Leroy, usually I'm coming to

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Speaker 1: you for legal and analysis, but you've actually been here

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Speaker 1: at this time. Could you describe any better? When I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to say no, Nancy, your deduction is very logical.

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Speaker 1: What is not always apparent in the photographs, but is

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Speaker 1: likely in the one you're showing, is that this house

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Speaker 1: is set against a hill, so it has with a

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Speaker 1: rather steep incline, a front part structure rectangular in nature,

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Speaker 1: and then a back part. It's almost two structures built together,

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Speaker 1: and there are two ground level entries. It's just that

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Speaker 1: there are on different levels. The second third level, the

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Speaker 1: sliding goor you're talking about, being perhaps eight or ten

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Speaker 1: feet higher than that. The lower level with the path

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Speaker 1: that you call the front door. It is a split

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Speaker 1: level residence, but almost two residences in the way it's constructed.

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Speaker 1: I think as much to a lot of confusion. Nicholas

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Speaker 1: Boggle brows with us. There are on the scene from

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Speaker 1: New York Times. He is a national reporter for them. Nicholas,

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Speaker 1: you really have to look at it from both angles

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Speaker 1: to see what we're talking about. But I kept, you know,

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Speaker 1: turning this around like a Rubio's cube until I saw

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Speaker 1: the correct angle, because I guarantee you, Nicholas, this guy

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Speaker 1: and it is a male enter through that sliding glass door.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe he had the code. And I think

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Speaker 1: he says this is a rage killing, very likely was

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Speaker 1: ungloved and left fingerprints and that it doesn't match up.

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Speaker 1: The prints don't match up to anybody or DNA in

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Speaker 1: codas or aphis because he's not a convict. He's never

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Speaker 1: been convicted of anything. Could you describe the structure of

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Speaker 1: the home. Nicholas, Yeah, absolutely, I was there yesterday. It

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Speaker 1: is very much on a fee hill. I think that

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Speaker 1: is important. So you have the front door and the

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Speaker 1: dry way um and that goes into the first floor.

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Speaker 1: But then if you go up the another roadway to

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Speaker 1: a kind of parking lot for an apartment complex nearby.

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Speaker 1: You can see that there's this sliding glass door to

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Speaker 1: the second floor, and also a kind of patio area

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Speaker 1: where they seem to have a few a couch and

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Speaker 1: a chair and seem to be a nice spot to

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Speaker 1: hang out outside that second second floor sliding door. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I think you know, the police have not said

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Speaker 1: anything about where the killer might have entered. Um, but

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Speaker 1: obviously those are those are two obvious places where that

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Speaker 1: could have happened. Um. And you know, all of this

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Speaker 1: is happening just in this in this very tight knit

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Speaker 1: college town area. Right under you know, a water tower

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Speaker 1: with the University of Idaho logo. Um, It's it's all

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Speaker 1: just right in this kind of central area next to campus. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it does tell me something about the killer

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Speaker 1: just got Morgan. Everybody, Again, this is not High Tea

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Speaker 1: at windsor Castle Jump in, Joe Scott. It is telling

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Speaker 1: me something because if the perp did not know the

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Speaker 1: code to the front door and came in through the

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Speaker 1: sliding glass door, that tells me he was tangentially involved

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Speaker 1: into victims lives. If we accept that the killer is

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Speaker 1: in one of their spheres, likely since we've got three

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Speaker 1: dead females and one dead male, likely in one of

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Speaker 1: the three female victims' lives, but he wasn't close enough

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Speaker 1: to know the code jump in. David, you need to

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Speaker 1: recall the intimate setting in this small college town, and

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Speaker 1: if the profilers are correct, if Kathleen's predictions and the

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Speaker 1: other speculations from various sources are correct, it should be

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Speaker 1: possible in a town of twenty five thousand people, in

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Speaker 1: a campus of eleven thousand, five hundred, all geographically very contiguous,

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Speaker 1: to see somebody of that profile who suddenly is left town,

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Speaker 1: who suddenly has changed their routine. I'm very hopeful if

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Speaker 1: these profiles are correct, that though we may not have

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Speaker 1: analyzed this scene evidence to some particular person, some of

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Speaker 1: these tangential things or some of these leaks that hopefully

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Speaker 1: will be developed, can perhaps very swiftly lead to a

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Speaker 1: suspect meeting those profiles. And another thing that I think

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Speaker 1: is news is there's an incredible amount of resource. There's

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Speaker 1: an unprecedented amount of resources being applied by law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: by Idaho standards to this case. The Moscow PG has

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Speaker 1: twenty four officers and they're all working on it. Four detectives.

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Speaker 1: The Idaho State Police Department, out of voice, has detailed

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Speaker 1: their mobile forensic unit up there and has twenty investigators available,

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Speaker 1: And significantly, the FBI, out of three or four field

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Speaker 1: offices and a laborage or in Virginia, has forty four

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Speaker 1: agents available to work on this case as well. So

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Speaker 1: if the profilers are correct, somebody will pop up and

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Speaker 1: perhaps we can marry up the scene evidence to that

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Speaker 1: person in the near future. Everybody, I want you to

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Speaker 1: take a listen to a theory I've developed so far,

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Speaker 1: and please jump in. I believe this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a white male local, just as in Delphi. Now

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Speaker 1: we know that day there was a huge football game,

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Speaker 1: and in that stadium, which holds sixteen thousand people, the

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Speaker 1: seats were packed. But if we go with the premises

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Speaker 1: was targeted, that large group of people would be irrelevant

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Speaker 1: to who this killer is. In other words, it's not

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Speaker 1: increasing the suspect pool. If we believe that this was

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Speaker 1: targeted by someone within one of the girl's spheres, local

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Speaker 1: white male, likely with cuts, bruises, and scratches that cannot

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Speaker 1: account for that time of the killing, someone that one

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Speaker 1: of the girls knew at school, or work, someone that

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Speaker 1: did not show up for school or work following it.

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Speaker 1: Someone connected to them but not convicted, someone that would

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Speaker 1: own a camping, military hiking type knife, someone on foot,

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Speaker 1: not a peeping tom, because this goes beyond the violence

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Speaker 1: we would normally get from a peeping tom that graduates

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Speaker 1: to a greater crime. With no evidence so far of

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Speaker 1: a stalker. Okay, we would have gotten that from emails

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Speaker 1: or texts or phone calls. We don't have that. That's

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Speaker 1: who I think the killer is going to be. And

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Speaker 1: isn't it true? Nicholas Bogel Burrows joining us in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times. Police have ruled out any connection between

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Speaker 1: the skinning of a dog a couple of miles away

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Speaker 1: prior to the murders, and three other stab victims from

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Speaker 1: two stabbing incidents. All those have been ruled not connected.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct, Nicholas right. There's been so much speculation

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Speaker 1: around this case, of course, that the police has spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of the time in their public statements trying

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Speaker 1: to dispel these rumors. So, like you said, there's been

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Speaker 1: m cases elsewhere, I believe one in Oregon that the

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Speaker 1: police have had to come out and say we don't

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Speaker 1: see anything that leads us to believe there's a connection.

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Speaker 1: And they've also spent a lot of time, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: with the death of a dog elsewhere. They believe that

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Speaker 1: that was caused by, you know, another animal. They've also

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time talking about suspects that they

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Speaker 1: have apparently ruled out. So there was a man in

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Speaker 1: a hoodie at a food truck that two of the victims,

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Speaker 1: Mattie and Kayley, went to on the night of the attacks.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the kind of internet sleuth community of

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Speaker 1: course has has has tried to pin down, you know,

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Speaker 1: who could have done this, But in doing so, they've

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Speaker 1: they've kind of put out a lot of names that

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Speaker 1: that the police has ended up saying, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't we don't think that person is connected to this.

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Speaker 1: And so that that person was among them of the

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Speaker 1: person who gave two of the victims a ride home, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, to the to surviving roommates. And and there's

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Speaker 1: about five more people that the police have come out

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Speaker 1: and said we don't believe they have a connection to this. Guys,

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Speaker 1: a piece of the puzzle that may become critical. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our cut sixty five Kana Whitworth. In

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Speaker 1: a case like this, though, where the victims and the

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Speaker 1: survivors were all so active on social media, is that

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Speaker 1: helpful to the investigation to learn about them and their

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Speaker 1: friends and their and their lives. Well, I think it's

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Speaker 1: both helpful and it also just enlarges the investigation overall.

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Speaker 1: It just has more people for us to try and

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Speaker 1: contact and try and get information. On the evening in question,

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Speaker 1: then just be able to do a full analysis in

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Speaker 1: review of the case straight out to special guests joining us.

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Kenning Mello, a former FBI unit chief for thirty

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Speaker 1: one years, ten of those assigned to the FBI Behavioral

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Speaker 1: Analysis Unit now and strike to North Carolina. Kathleen, what

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Speaker 1: can we learn from social media about these victims and

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Speaker 1: the potential perpet writer. Absolutely, the police and FBI investigators

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Speaker 1: are going through all of their social media with a

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Speaker 1: fine tooth comb, and I would go back weeks or

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Speaker 1: even months trying to examine identify the people within their network,

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Speaker 1: try to identify their patterns over the last couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: and people that they have encountered. And you would imagine

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Speaker 1: this is such a data driven sort of investigation. As

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Speaker 1: well in terms of cell phone data and other ring

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Speaker 1: camera videos CCTV. This is why it's taking a while

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Speaker 1: to go through all that digital evidence because it requires expertise, right,

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Speaker 1: we need computer forensic examiners to go through a lot

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Speaker 1: of this data to recover missing data from a lot

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Speaker 1: of the devices. It takes time and it takes expertise.

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Speaker 1: So I understand the frustrations, but it certainly is necessary

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Speaker 1: for the investigators to go through all of their social

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Speaker 1: media contacts and all of their phones or all of

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Speaker 1: their photographs in order to try the piece together and

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Speaker 1: maybe identify this person. Right, I mean, I'm curious as

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Speaker 1: to what they will be looking for time story he's

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Jessica Morgan. I would look to see

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Speaker 1: whoever had friended them, who was on their snapchat map,

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Speaker 1: who was snapping with them. There's so many things to

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Speaker 1: look at, who had liked or disliked something, or unfriended them.

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Speaker 1: There's so many levels of seeming intimacy online that's not real.

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Speaker 1: And I guarantee you if this was somebody in their sphere,

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Speaker 1: they're looking at their Insta, they're looking at their story

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Speaker 1: as it's called. I believe that may hold a key.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it could, but you know, we got to consider

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Speaker 1: one other thing. This is unlike any other kind of

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Speaker 1: community that this could have happened in. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a university community. These kids that populate the student body,

429
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: they're already looking towards Thanksgiving break, okay, and then you

430
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: have this horrific event that occurs. And even by the

431
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: admission of the president of the university, he said that

432
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: some kids might not come back. Well, one of the

433
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: problems this poses for the local police is the fact

434
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: that these kids have left Nancy. And you know better

435
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: than anybody there is something that you get one of

436
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: the eye eye interview with the individuals where you're sitting

437
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: across the table from them, and you can cue them.

438
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: You can get illicit information from them that there's a

439
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: potential they're going to miss something here, because even those

440
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: individuals that didn't have direct contact with these poor victims,

441
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: they might see something or they might have heard something

442
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: that now has lost all contexts. We're now two weeks

443
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: down range from this. These kids have gone home, some

444
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: of them have not come back. They've offered for them

445
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: to take online classes. That's no fault of the university.

446
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: That's just the reality, and this is what this is

447
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 1: a big obstacle. I think that the police are facing

448
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: in this case, guys, that would explain if the killer

449
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: left immediately after the killing, you could all be chalked

450
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: up to leaving out of fear lost in the shuffle,

451
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: maybe never returning. This is a very transient community. People

452
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: come in and out, depending on do they graduate, do

453
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: they lay out a quarter, are they leaving for work?

454
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: Are they going to come back? Are they picking up

455
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: summer classes. That entirely compounds the difficulty of trying to

456
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: locate the killer as of right now, no motive, no

457
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: murder weapon, no suspect. On top of it all, we

458
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: are learning that the families are rankling the families of

459
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 1: the victims because of lack of information. Taking listen our

460
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: cut sixty three, our friend Jonathan Vigliotti. Police are keeping

461
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: details they do have under lock and key, including audio

462
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: of the nine one one call, the names of the

463
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: surviving roommates, and the names of those at the house

464
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: who spoke to dispatchers during the call. Citing case integrity,

465
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: The lack of information is a pain point for Kaylee.

466
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: Consolves is already grieving family. We all want to play

467
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: a part in helping, and we can't play a part

468
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: if we don't have any real financial information to work from.

469
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: Detectives did dispel rumors that the victims were tied up

470
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: and address claims that consolves how does stalker? So far

471
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: we have not been able to corroborate it, but we're

472
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: not done looking into that piece of information. Oh well,

473
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: the roommates have been named, isn't it Dylan Mortenson and

474
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: Bethany Funk? Aren't there? Aren't those the names Nicholas, Those

475
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: names are out there. I'm not sure that that's come

476
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: from the police, but I know that the victims had

477
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: posted on social media with those two students. I would

478
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: be curious. Doctor Jory Crawls and joining me psychologist faculty

479
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: Saint Leo University and author of Operation Soos. Doctor Jory,

480
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: do you believe the killer acted as a thoughtical serial

481
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: killer such as BTK. I mean, there's a big difference

482
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: and a mass killer or spree killer and a serial killer.

483
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: Do you think he would have thought to take a

484
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,479
Speaker 1: trophy with him or was he hastily leaving the scene

485
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: of the slaughter. I think he was hastily leaving as

486
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: a mass killer, not a serial killer. I would even

487
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: venture to say that he's left the area, and I

488
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: would say that he probably left right after that, got

489
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: out of the area. Okay, we know there was no theft,

490
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: we know there was no sex assault. We know now

491
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: that the victims were not bound or gagged in any way.

492
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: I want to follow up on the fact that the

493
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: families are upset they're not getting enough information. Nicholas Boggle

494
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: burros with me, National reporter of New York Times. It's

495
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: not the police duty or law enforcement to spoon feed

496
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: us the media information. But regarding the victims families, that's

497
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: a whole another cana. Worms. You have to stay in

498
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: touch with the victims families. What are we learning about

499
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: police refusal to release info to victims families? Right, Well,

500
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: all indications have been that they have received, uh, not

501
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: much more information than has been provided publicly. UM. Kayley's

502
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: family has has spoken about UM. You know, I think

503
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 1: her her older sister, Olivia Gonsalves, has really kind of

504
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: turned into an investigator herself. She was going through, you know,

505
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: her sister's phone account and looking at who she had

506
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: called UM. She was looking at these these this live

507
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: stream from the food truck before just about anyone. UM,

508
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: and you know she's she's really gone into investigator mode

509
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: and is intent on solving the murder of her own sister. UM.

510
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: And I think the their father, UM, Stephen Gonzala Gonsalves

511
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: has said recently, UM that you know, they are really

512
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: not getting much more informed than the public and are

513
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: expecting fewer updates as this dragged on to David Leroy,

514
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Idaho, who is intimately familiar

515
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: with this home, who has been in the home and

516
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: knows the area very well. David, we also are told

517
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: by police they're convinced that this was a targeted attack.

518
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: This was a burglary gone wrong or a rape attempt

519
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: gone wrong, but targeted. So that leads me to the question,

520
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: how do they know it's a targeted attack? They're not

521
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: releasing that information, but think about it was one targeted,

522
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: two all four most likely one? Why would they say

523
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: one person was targeted? Were their wounds different? Was their

524
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: body treated differently than the others? Did they have more

525
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: wounds than the others for instance? Was their body staged?

526
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is was a blanket

527
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: or a sheet pulled up over their face. Any movement

528
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: of the same post boredom is staging. Why do you think,

529
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: David Leroy, You've handled plenty of Marber cases that police

530
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 1: are insisting this was targeted against one of these victims.

531
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: The word targeted became initially associated with this homicide that

532
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: they're now calling the King Road homicides very very early.

533
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: In fact, it was perhaps within almost minutes of when

534
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: the first dialogue began that this began to be called

535
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: the targeted killing. I think they have stayed with that

536
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: partially because the original focus on just one household and

537
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: four people and utterly shocking events in a small community

538
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: appeared to be unlikely to repeat itself to the general

539
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: public in any near term future, And perhaps it is

540
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: entirely consistent now as they continue to use that with

541
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: the profiling that we're discussing on the program today. I

542
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: don't think they know yet, or at least they haven't

543
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: indicated yet that it was targeted to any one person,

544
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: or that it was any more targeted than we have

545
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: already learned. On the other hand, it remains something that

546
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: is utterly unlikely to pose a general threat to the

547
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: community of Moscow, as we have discussion until the killer's call,

548
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: I think that there is a threat to Kathleen Kenny mellow.

549
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: Why do you believe police have insisted this is targeting?

550
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: I mean, David Leroy seems to suggest that they labeled

551
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: it as targeted at the get go, so now they're

552
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: stuck with their own words. I disagree. Yeah, I think

553
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: it goes back to the motivation, right, and we're considering

554
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: the motivation, but as we've discussed today as a revenge motive,

555
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: so that seems to me it directly into some kind

556
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 1: of a target, right. The offender wants to revenge against

557
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: one or more persons. We don't know at this point

558
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: whether it was one or more victims that were the

559
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: targets of this attack, but that it seems logical to

560
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: me that this revenge was demoted and one or more

561
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: of those victims was the target of the attack. Just

562
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: Scott Morgant, doesn't make sense to me that all four

563
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: are the target. It would make more sense that one

564
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: is a target. And if so, let's just follow this

565
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: through to its logical conclusion. How would they determine this

566
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: was targeted? What could be different about one of the bodies,

567
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: the level of violence involved specifically, you know, and a

568
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: lot has been made of this, you know, because the

569
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: term multiple has been used, multiple staff wounds. I think

570
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: the coroner let that slip out. To be quite honest

571
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: with you, I was, I was too, Joe Scott, I

572
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: was stunned. Is that what you're gonna say that? The

573
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: coroner and the lab. Now, let me remind everybody this

574
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: corner is not a medical doctor. She is not a

575
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: medical examiner. She has a four year degree And what

576
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: did I tell you? It was? Joe Scott was in

577
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: English and then a jd. She has a lawyer's degree.

578
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: She's a registered nurse, also a history as a registered nurse.

579
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: That said, take a listen to our cut forty six.

580
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: This is a county coroner, Kathy Mabbot. Most of them

581
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: had just like one that was the lethal stab wound? Yes,

582
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: can you describe what that one might have been? Fatal

583
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: ones were to the chest area or the upper body area?

584
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: Were there? And I only ask this because it sometimes

585
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: determines what kind of a crime this was a crime

586
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: of passion, a random crime, a fight, a struggle. Was

587
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: there were any of them slashed? Were any of their

588
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: next cut or were these all puncture ones. Well, it's

589
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: a pretty large night, so it's really hard to call

590
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: them puncture wounds. And they were definitely stabbings. And I

591
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: mean it has to be somebody that's pretty angry in

592
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: order to stab for people to death. As a county

593
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: coroner speaking to our friends are writtenw's nations Joe Scott,

594
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: I like you was very taken aback that the coroner

595
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: issued the statement, gave an interview during an ongoing investigation.

596
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: But did you hear her words? Most of them had

597
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: her words, just like one that was a lethal stab wound.

598
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: Most of them, not all of them, had one lethal

599
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: stab wound. Decipher Joe Scott. Well, yeah, and then you

600
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: factor in this idea of defensive ones, because you know,

601
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: defensive wounds can come in any number. I was one

602
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: body treated differently than the other bodies. Why do we

603
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: think this was targeted? Yeah? Well, for me personally, if

604
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: you're asking me, if I could examine the bodies, would

605
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: take a look and see who had sustained the most trauma,

606
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: because you know, going to what doctor Jory said, this

607
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: is an indication of rage, perhaps, you know, And I'm

608
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: I'm not a psychotherapist, but you know when you see

609
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: somebody that attempts to really destroy somebody with a knife,

610
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication of purpose. Nicholas Buggle Brus,

611
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: They're on the same national reporter in New York Times.

612
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: What is the mood on campus right now as some

613
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: students return. So yesterday was the first day back for

614
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: students after this had all happened. Many of them had

615
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: left early for Thanksgiving break following this tragedy. And so

616
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: I spoke with a lot of students yesterday, and many

617
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: of them are afraid. They're texting their roommates and you know,

618
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: making sure that they're coming back if they are, so

619
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: that they're not alone. They're staying inside at night, they're

620
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: walking in pairs. One woman told me she even was

621
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: planning to get pepper spray for Christmas this year as

622
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: a gift. So, you know, a lot of them were

623
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: grateful for the police around campus. Multiple people pointed that

624
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: out to me. But they are all just getting flooded

625
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: with colds from their parents, from friends checking in on

626
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: them at all times. Sure tip line two zero eight

627
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: eight eight three seven zero five four repeat two zero

628
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: eight eight eight three seven zero five four Goodbye friend,