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Speaker 1: Rebels is a production of My Heart Radio. Hey everyone,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Rivals. This is a show about music, ravelries

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Speaker 1: and beefs and feuds in long simmering tensions between pot

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Speaker 1: positions and spite and vile. I'm Steve, I'm Jordan. How

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Speaker 1: are you. I'm great, man. I am excited about the

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Speaker 1: rabble we're gonna talk about in this episode. Um, we

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Speaker 1: have two bands that I think sound a lot alike. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you don't follow contemporary rock music, I think you

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Speaker 1: would actually have a hard time telling these bands apart.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't you think, Oh yeah, I think they're

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Speaker 1: more similar than dissimilar. Yeah, they're kind of like so

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Speaker 1: far around the circle that they're almost next to each other.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those kind of things. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's one of those situations where one of the bands

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Speaker 1: in this scenario, I think would argue that there's a

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Speaker 1: world of difference between these two groups and that has

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Speaker 1: created a lot of bad blood between these acts. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about imagine Dragons in the ninety five. I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: are you a fan of these bands? I am a

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Speaker 1: casual fan of the nineteen seventy five, and I'm embarrassed

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Speaker 1: to say I am very much not a fan of

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Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons. I'm embarrassed because I feel like that is

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Speaker 1: just the commonly held belief with at least most of

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Speaker 1: the people that I know. And I say it in

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Speaker 1: a in a way that's not performative, that's not learned.

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Speaker 1: I actually just violently just like a great many of

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Speaker 1: the songs. And uh, and you know, I have some

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine's eight year old whose favorite song

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Speaker 1: is Thunder, So you know, I can't really knock it

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Speaker 1: if it gets a kid in the music. But I

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Speaker 1: just I not for me. I'm not going to say

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Speaker 1: how I feel quite yet. I will say this that, uh,

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Speaker 1: there is one band that I thought I hated in

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Speaker 1: another band that I thought I loved, And yet after

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Speaker 1: researching this episode, I came to find that the band

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Speaker 1: that I thought I hated, I actually I think I

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Speaker 1: like them a little bit more now, Whereas the band

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Speaker 1: that I thought I loved, I think I like them

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Speaker 1: a little less. So maybe I'm starting to feel the

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Speaker 1: same way about these bands, but I just took different

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Speaker 1: ways to get Therese that's an m Night Shamalan twist

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Speaker 1: right there. No, it is exactly it is. It's very

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Speaker 1: it's very spooky. You know, I'm just sitting the scene there. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's get into this mess. Let's first talk about Imagine Dragons. Now,

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Speaker 1: we all know who Imagined Dragons are. We think we

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Speaker 1: know who they are. They're one of the biggest pop

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Speaker 1: rock bands in the world. They got their start in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve. That's when they first came on

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Speaker 1: the scene. Their band from Las Vegas. Their debut album

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Speaker 1: is called Night Visions, and the song that really sends

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Speaker 1: this album into the stratosphere is called Radioactive. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you think you don't know the song Radioactive, I'll give

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Speaker 1: you a hint that this is the song where the

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Speaker 1: guy says radioactive I think about a million times in

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Speaker 1: the course of four minutes, and I think he says

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Speaker 1: what I think he says, whoa maybe maybe five million also,

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Speaker 1: if that that might narrow it down to so it's

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Speaker 1: woe and radioactive a million times each. You kind of

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Speaker 1: got it. Yeah, But we know that in pop music,

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Speaker 1: repetition sells, and it really sells this song, and this

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Speaker 1: becomes one of those songs that even if you don't

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Speaker 1: follow rock music or pop music, you don't listen to

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Speaker 1: the radio. You're you're living in a cave by yourself.

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Speaker 1: This is still a song that you probably know by

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Speaker 1: heart because it's in movie trailers, it's in gas stations,

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Speaker 1: they played during NBA games. They probably found a way

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Speaker 1: to like pipe it into your brain as you're sleeping.

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Speaker 1: It's just one of those ubiquitous songs that you can't

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Speaker 1: get away from. And it really is like one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest rock songs of the decade of the two

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Speaker 1: thousand tens. I mean, I think that's fair to say, right,

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Speaker 1: oh absolutely, I mean now at this point, it almost

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Speaker 1: like a Pavlavian thing where it's like, Okay, we need

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Speaker 1: someone to feel excited. We're gonna play this song. And

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Speaker 1: like you said, any trailer and he adds, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's there. It's an instant, immediate, you're gonna feel pumped

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Speaker 1: up kind of kind of jam in a in a

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Speaker 1: very socially acceptable kind of way. Now, with the song Radioactive,

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Speaker 1: it really sort of sets the template for the imagined

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Speaker 1: d Reagan sound, and that sounds, you know, it is

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Speaker 1: an important part of of pop music and rock music

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Speaker 1: in the two thousand tens, ends up being very influential

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Speaker 1: because it's not a pure rock sound. It it's integrating

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Speaker 1: elements of pop and hip hop. You don't really hear guitars,

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Speaker 1: so you don't really even hear guitar riffs or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. It's a hybrid of different kinds of music

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Speaker 1: that traditionalists would say isn't rock music at all, and

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Speaker 1: maybe it isn't. I don't know what it is, but

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Speaker 1: it ends up being absurdly popular, and it has a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with them working with this producer named

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Speaker 1: Alex di Kid, who's big hit before Radioactive and all

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Speaker 1: the night Vision hits was a song called Love the

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Speaker 1: Way You Lie, which was a big hit for Eminem

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Speaker 1: and Rihanna. And like that song, you know, Imagine Dragon

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Speaker 1: songs are big, bombastic, melodramatic, somewhat plotting and maybe a

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Speaker 1: little boring, but I guess people seem to love it.

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Speaker 1: So Imagine Dragons becomes this huge band. Skip ahead of seventeen,

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Speaker 1: they put out their third record, Evolve, and it has

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other hits, including the song thunder that

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Speaker 1: you said that what was that your nephew likes? Uh,

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Speaker 1: friend of mine's eight year old son. But it is

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Speaker 1: it is an absolutely massive song. I mean they had

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Speaker 1: a huge year that year. I think that the Billboard

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Speaker 1: year end rock charts had four of their songs, like

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Speaker 1: you know, of every rock artist in the world of

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Speaker 1: the top ten of that year or this one band.

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Speaker 1: It is. It is unreal. And the thing that's kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy to remember is, especially now looking back at

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Speaker 1: seeing all the negative reviews that they've received in the

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Speaker 1: last few years, is that when they first came on

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Speaker 1: the scene, correct me if I'm wrong, they were relatively

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Speaker 1: they were praised, they were lauded for kind of I

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Speaker 1: think that window is fairly short with them, just because

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Speaker 1: radio Active in such a big song right away. And

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Speaker 1: you know, by the end of the decade, Imagine Dragon's

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Speaker 1: was putting up numbers that really, you know, few other

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Speaker 1: rock bands were even approaching. I mean, they had thirty

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Speaker 1: five million singles sold, twenty million albums sold. They were

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Speaker 1: the most stream group on Spotify. Your eight year old

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Speaker 1: friend likes it, And is it okay that we make

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Speaker 1: fun of your eight year old friend for liking Imagine Dragons?

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Speaker 1: Is that socially acceptable or I mean either that or

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Speaker 1: that Imagine Dragon fans are all eight year olds. I

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Speaker 1: mean it goes either way. Either way, you know, the

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Speaker 1: simplicity it works for eight year olds out there. Um,

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Speaker 1: so they're this enormous band, but as you can already tell,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jordan and I are already making fun of

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Speaker 1: Imagine dy Wagons. With this great popularity, with all the

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Speaker 1: hits that they've had, comes a lot of mockery. You know.

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Speaker 1: It seems like there's always one that one band that

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Speaker 1: is an easy target for people to make fun of.

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Speaker 1: Like for years it was Nickelback, but in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years, I think it really became Imagined Dragons,

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Speaker 1: this band that is so ubiquitous, so just being rammed

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Speaker 1: on everyone's throat that as a release, people want to

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Speaker 1: make fun of this band, you know, and maybe make

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Speaker 1: fun of them a chance. Exactly. In a lot of

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Speaker 1: cases like that, overwhelming success just brings so much scrutiny

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Speaker 1: and having people wonder what they're deserving of this, and

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Speaker 1: then that breeds contempt and then finally mockery. But so

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Speaker 1: exactly what you said, a lot of people aren't even

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Speaker 1: giving them a chance. But in this case, I'll make

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Speaker 1: an exception and say that the Mockerys aren't no I am.

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Speaker 1: I'll save that for the end. I have to say

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Speaker 1: that I always resented Imagine Dragons because they have such

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Speaker 1: a cool sounding name. In the music itself seems kind

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Speaker 1: of milk toast. Like I always thought like, if Ronnie

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Speaker 1: James Dio was still alive, that he should have had

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Speaker 1: a band called Imagine Dragons. You know, like Imagined Dragon

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Speaker 1: should have had like, you know, guys with swords on

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Speaker 1: the cover and you know, slitting the throne dragons and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. It should have been something like like

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Speaker 1: sword and sorcery and in like Game of Thrones type stuff.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't have been songs about how you feel radioactive.

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Speaker 1: So there's some resentment there that this should have been

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Speaker 1: like a kick ass metal band, not like a safe

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Speaker 1: mainstream pop group. Oh no, I mean, if if anything,

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Speaker 1: I would have thought maybe like at least a prog

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Speaker 1: rock band or something. But yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: And uh and something I didn't know until very recently

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Speaker 1: that you know how they got their big break now,

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Speaker 1: How's that they Pat Monahan from Train was sick and

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Speaker 1: so Train at the back out of a festival and

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Speaker 1: they got Imagine, very very young, Imagined Dragons. And I

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Speaker 1: think two thousand nine a Las Vegas festival, and that

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Speaker 1: got them some major exposure from I think was Interscope,

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Speaker 1: So that was their big break. They they the the

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Speaker 1: torch from Train, Hey Soul sister Train. The music industry

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Speaker 1: was like, we need a lamer band than Train. Can

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Speaker 1: we find train? Train is sick? We need we need

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Speaker 1: a lamer band than Train. You know, Oh, imagine Dragons

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Speaker 1: is here. Yes, this is exactly what we're looking for. Now. Again,

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Speaker 1: we're making fun of this band. They're just doing their thing,

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Speaker 1: they're not doing anything wrong, and we're taking shots at

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Speaker 1: them because it's such an easy thing to do. We're

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Speaker 1: too lazy music critic type people just taking shots at

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Speaker 1: this band. But you know, that's what they've been established

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Speaker 1: as in the two thousand tons as being the sort

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Speaker 1: of easy target band. So that's imagine Dragons over here.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the nineteen seventy. I think that the

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Speaker 1: thing that that aside people who just actually don't like

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Speaker 1: the sound, I think that there's a certain sense of

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Speaker 1: people think it's almost disingenuous because it is such an

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Speaker 1: amalgamation of all these different genres and you think, oh wow, cool,

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Speaker 1: they're they're really fusing a whole new blend of sounds.

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Speaker 1: That's something really interesting and innovative and new and cool.

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Speaker 1: We should really give us a chance. It feels disingenuous

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Speaker 1: because I feel like a lot of people feel that

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Speaker 1: it's just trying to game the music industry now, getting

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Speaker 1: on a bunch of Spotify genre playlists, which is how

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Speaker 1: artists get a huge amount of streams, which is obviously

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Speaker 1: how they earned well, not a lot of income because

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Speaker 1: nobody's learning and come from music specifically these days. But

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Speaker 1: but that multiple Billboard charts, multiple even multiple Grammys Grammy categories,

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Speaker 1: it feels like sort of an opportunistic way of making music,

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Speaker 1: and that's how it comes across. I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: that's their intent, but that is I think a reaction

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Speaker 1: that people have had. It's funny that you make this

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Speaker 1: argument against the magin Dragons, because for the nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 1: this very thing that you're talking about, this amalgamation of

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Speaker 1: different genres, this mixing and matching, this sort of disregard

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Speaker 1: for how we used to listen to music, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to come buying everything into one pot. It's something

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Speaker 1: that people seem to like about the other band in

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Speaker 1: this equation THET seventy five. So let's talk about them.

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Speaker 1: You know, we we've got the easily marketable band on

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Speaker 1: one side. Let's talk about the nine. This is a

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Speaker 1: band that forms in two thousand two, their British band,

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Speaker 1: and they form when all the band members are teenagers

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Speaker 1: and when they're in school. They started as an emo band,

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Speaker 1: and they're not a very fashionable band. They don't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of fans. Maddie Healy, the band singer, recalled

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Speaker 1: in a Spin interview that they were super nerds back then.

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Speaker 1: But the people who do like this band like them

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Speaker 1: passionately and it sustains them for a while during these

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Speaker 1: lean years, like when they're not really getting anything going

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Speaker 1: uh career wise, get into getting into the two thousand tens.

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Speaker 1: They have enough of a following that they get a

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Speaker 1: record deal and they start putting out a series of EPs,

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Speaker 1: which sets up the release of their self titled debut.

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Speaker 1: And this is a record that actually does end up

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Speaker 1: taking off, especially in England but also here in America

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Speaker 1: and sort of a culti way, and then it begins

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Speaker 1: to build as the decade unfolds. Now again, going back

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Speaker 1: to the timeline with Imagine Dragons. This is around the

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Speaker 1: time that Imagine Dragons get started. And like Imagine Dragons,

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Speaker 1: the ve are this band that looks like a rock band,

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Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily always sound like a rock band.

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Speaker 1: They're they're playing with R and B music, they're playing

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Speaker 1: with electronic music. They're kind of going all over the

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Speaker 1: board there. They don't feel like they have to do

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Speaker 1: it here, just just a strict guitar centric sound. And

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Speaker 1: while this gains them a lot of fans, it also

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Speaker 1: hurts their credibility somewhat. A lot of people look at

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Speaker 1: them as a boy band, you know, this sort of

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Speaker 1: prefabricated group, and a lot of that has to do

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Speaker 1: with also who was talking about them early on. You know,

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift was a fan early on, so were the

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Speaker 1: guys in one direction, and that helped them build a following.

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Speaker 1: But for music critics, sort of self serious arbiters of

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Speaker 1: quality and music, they didn't really take this band seriously again,

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Speaker 1: much in the same way that they don't take Imagine

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Speaker 1: Dragons seriously. The difference, however, is that with it gradually

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Speaker 1: starts to turn in seen. They put out a record

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Speaker 1: which has an absurdly long title. Do you know the

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Speaker 1: title of this record? I do. It's like Fiona Apple

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Speaker 1: level long and winding. It I like it when you Sleep,

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Speaker 1: for you are so beautiful yet so unaware of it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: a title that, depending on your disposition, is either beautiful

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Speaker 1: in its poetics sort of you know, reaching for the skies,

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Speaker 1: reaching for profundity type way, or it's just screamingly pretentious

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Speaker 1: and it instantly sets your teeth on edge, which well,

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Speaker 1: I have to say that for me, that was part

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Speaker 1: of the appeal of this band, like early on, like

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Speaker 1: I was a defender of this band when they didn't

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Speaker 1: have a ton of critical cachet because you know, I

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Speaker 1: remember when that second record came out, they were on

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Speaker 1: SNL and Maddie Healy was like strutting around in leather

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Speaker 1: pants and didn't have a shirt on, Like did you

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Speaker 1: see that performance? It's like I did, I mean, because

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Speaker 1: I know, like a lot of people hated it. They

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Speaker 1: were like, this is the most obnoxious band in the world.

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Speaker 1: Like I was kind of getting off on like how

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Speaker 1: obnoxious it was. Yeah, it felt intentional. I mean, even

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Speaker 1: the title, like you said, I mean, not only just

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Speaker 1: for the length reasons but also, I it's my understanding

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Speaker 1: that he wrote that in a love note to some

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Speaker 1: supermodel he was dating at the time. Maddie Healey, Um,

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Speaker 1: love it is, which kind of just adds a whole

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Speaker 1: another level to it. We're gonna take a quick break

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Speaker 1: to get a word from our sponsor before we get

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Speaker 1: to more rivals. So this record comes out of the

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Speaker 1: second record with the enormously long title based on a

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Speaker 1: love note to a supermodel, and some critics like that,

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Speaker 1: some critics hate it. But there's this ground swell building,

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Speaker 1: and you know, here in America they become more of

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Speaker 1: a mainstream rock band, and among critics they kind of

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Speaker 1: gradually become a critical favorite. So when you get to

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Speaker 1: eighteen and they put out their third record, which is

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Speaker 1: called A Brief Inquiry into Online Relationships, which is another

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Speaker 1: title where you're like, this might be genius, this might

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Speaker 1: be totally obnoxious. I don't know where, like, where do

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Speaker 1: you fall on that album title? Uh, It's like I

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Speaker 1: could go either way, I think, depending on my mood

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Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, I mean, you can't press the crazy

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Speaker 1: album title button too many times and until I start

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Speaker 1: to you know, I mean, all right, you get you

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Speaker 1: get maybe two right, and then even if you Ona

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Speaker 1: Apple on her third record was like extraordinary machine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there you go, two words up Bingo Bengo. But this

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Speaker 1: is the record that really makes them like one of

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Speaker 1: the most critically acclaimed bands around. The song love It

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Speaker 1: If We Made It, which is the big song from

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Speaker 1: that record. It was named the best song ofen by Pitchfork,

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Speaker 1: who called it a generational anthem. Uh you know what

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Speaker 1: song Pitchfork didn't call a generational anthem? Radioactive. That song

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Speaker 1: did not get any love from Pitchfork, I assure you.

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Speaker 1: So we can already see a very interesting contrast here.

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Speaker 1: On one hand, you have a pop friendly rock band

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Speaker 1: named Imagine Dragons that critics either ignore or make fun

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Speaker 1: of just out of habit, And on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: you have a pop friendly rock band named The nineteen

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Speaker 1: that critics used to make fun of and then came

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Speaker 1: to regard as like the second Coming and in the

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Speaker 1: maker of generational anthems. Uh so it seems like total

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Speaker 1: ground for a conflict. To me, it really is confusing

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Speaker 1: to me how that change occurred. I mean, I because

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Speaker 1: listening to like When You Sleep, I mean it to

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Speaker 1: me it sounded like at least most of the songs

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Speaker 1: like an excess produced by Nile Rodgers or something. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seemed in a lot of ways just as I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I liked it. I mean objectively, I like that

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Speaker 1: music better than I did Imagine Dragons. But it in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways it seemed just as I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say derivative, but I'm gonna say derivative as

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Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons. But still, you're absolutely right, uh generational anthem.

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Speaker 1: Pitchford can't argue with that. It seems like the same criticisms,

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Speaker 1: or at least a lot of the same criticisms you

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Speaker 1: could make about Imagine Dragons, you could also make up

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Speaker 1: about the nineteen seventy five, Whereas if you really like

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy five and you think they're great, it

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Speaker 1: seems like a lot of the things that you would

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Speaker 1: love about the seventy five you could also maybe love

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Speaker 1: about Imagine Dragons. And yet there's this all this other

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Speaker 1: stuff around those two groups that somehow makes them seem

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Speaker 1: more like opposites than maybe they really are. And some

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Speaker 1: of that baggage came from the bands themselves, like and

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Speaker 1: when did the trash talking start? Because it definitely came

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Speaker 1: from the nineteen with these two. First, it was a

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Speaker 1: seventeen interview in Q magazine that Mattie Healy gave and

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Speaker 1: he basically accused Imagine Dragons of having songs that were nothingness.

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Speaker 1: He said, songs like Radioactive by Imagine Dragons, it might

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Speaker 1: as well be called Pecachi Banana, which is arguably a

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Speaker 1: better title than I Like It. When you sleep. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's nothingness, he continued. Uh, there's no space for nothingness anymore,

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Speaker 1: and pop music has so much space for it. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying I'm John Lennon or Jarvis Cocker from Pulp,

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Speaker 1: but I will say there's parts of our record, which

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Speaker 1: has been a massive mainstream record, that have resonated with

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Speaker 1: people for the right reasons, and that won't be taken

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Speaker 1: away from me. And this was also the same interview

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Speaker 1: where he said that he basically wanted their upcoming third

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Speaker 1: album to be considered in the same league as Okay

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Speaker 1: Computer and The Smiths. The Queen is Dead. Now we'll

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Speaker 1: get into the bar high bar. We'll get to this

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Speaker 1: a little bit later, but again, you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: very interesting comment to say that people of resonated with

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Speaker 1: our music for the right reasons. I'm just gonna leave

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Speaker 1: that there. We're gonna explore that. I think that kind

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Speaker 1: of statement more a little more in depth later on

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Speaker 1: in this episode, but as a little foreshadowing, I just

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Speaker 1: think that's a very interesting comment to make on the

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Speaker 1: part of Maddie Healy. But anyway, please go ahead, because

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Speaker 1: he drops this bomb on Imagine Dragons and the lead

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Speaker 1: singer Imagined Dragons a guy named Dan Reynolds. He's not

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Speaker 1: gonna take this lying down. No, And you know, my

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Speaker 1: you gotta feel bad for Dan Reynolds. It was in

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Speaker 1: early there was just this massive pig pile on Imagine

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Speaker 1: Dragons from from the artistic community. You had Foster the People,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, glass houses, etcetera. Foster the people.

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Speaker 1: Really sit this one. Foster people are taking shots. They

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Speaker 1: took a pot shot. They said that they sold Imagine

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Speaker 1: Dragons whatever songs weren't good enough for their records. Yeah, no, no,

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Speaker 1: sit down, you know, all due respect. No, I don't

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Speaker 1: act like you're better than Imagine Dragons. No, but but

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's that's a camp you really

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Speaker 1: don't want to be in. When Foster to the people's

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Speaker 1: taking shots at yet. So Marilyn Manson said that he

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Speaker 1: likes to put on a mag and Dragons when someone

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Speaker 1: says something that pisces him off, because he it's a punishment. Um.

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Speaker 1: Gary Holt, the guitarist known for his Time and Exodus

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Speaker 1: and Slayer uh, shared an image on Instagram saying Imagine

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Speaker 1: Dragon sucked giant Harry Monkey balls. Uh. And he went

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Speaker 1: on a lengthy tirade again thumb and then and then

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Speaker 1: Corey Taylor from slip Knot really is kind of the uh,

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Speaker 1: the main instigator here he um. He basically said that

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Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons has taken the the world's most Terrible band

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Speaker 1: baton from nickel Back. He said that nickel Back has

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Speaker 1: passed the baton. Uh, Imagine Dragons are awful. So that's cool.

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Speaker 1: See again with the nickel You know, we talked about

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Speaker 1: Nickelback being the band that was easy for everyone to

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Speaker 1: make fun of, and now the guy from Slipknot is

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Speaker 1: confirming that by taking you know, he's referencing nickel Back

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Speaker 1: and he's taking a shot at Imagine Dragons. So all

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Speaker 1: these people, some of them are are relevant, some of

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Speaker 1: them are not relevant. I mean the Exodus guy, please, Okay, faster,

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Speaker 1: people get out of here. Um. I mean, really, it's

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Speaker 1: the Maddie Healy thing. I think that really matters because

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Speaker 1: he's he's like in a he's in a buzzy band.

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Speaker 1: They're in kind of a similar lane, and it feels

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Speaker 1: like maybe that that's the thing that pushed Reynolds over

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Speaker 1: the top. It's like, okay, now the nineteen guys taking

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Speaker 1: shots at me, right, So he goes on Twitter, he

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Speaker 1: he has that he just Vence's spleen, this very lengthy

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Speaker 1: uh statement, uh saying for decades, I've dealt with critics

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Speaker 1: and other band end saying extremely harsh things about my band.

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Speaker 1: Not what I would call fair criticism, but actual clickbait, horseshit,

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Speaker 1: words filled with vile and hate, meant to feed humanity's

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Speaker 1: need to laugh at each other's imperfections and fails. I

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Speaker 1: think that's his type. On not mind, I've stood silently

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Speaker 1: and taken it for years. It has added to the

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Speaker 1: depression I've dealt with since youth. Oh oh, that's he's

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Speaker 1: playing the depression car. That's sad. I don't say this

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Speaker 1: in search of sympathy, but it's just a fact. It's

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Speaker 1: not the person that causes me the feelings of stress

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Speaker 1: and depression. But what it does to the world we

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Speaker 1: as a band have created. He's saying, I've got over

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Speaker 1: the guys in other bands ninety five faster, the people

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Speaker 1: smashing pumpkins, slipnot, et cetera, feeling a need to talk

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Speaker 1: badly about my band for whatever reason. I don't feel

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Speaker 1: angered towards them. Actually, just more of a sadness that

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Speaker 1: this industry embraces, even celebrates this mentality. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: long stage we get, you get the point where we

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Speaker 1: get the idea he's upset, which you know, on some

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Speaker 1: level I understand because if someone is ripping you and

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Speaker 1: then you have and then you feel like you're being

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Speaker 1: ganged up on, it's not a great Yeah, it's sad,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I and I wonder, you know, did

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Speaker 1: Maddie Healy immediately apologize after this or did he foreseed

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Speaker 1: to take another shot at Dan Reynolds after that? Uh?

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Speaker 1: He He was asked about if the statement came out

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Speaker 1: in like February I think twenty nineteen. It was over

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Speaker 1: the summer. He was asked about an interview with a

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Speaker 1: Chicago radio station, and he basically said you know, you

425
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: can't expect to do what you do and be void

426
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: of criticism. I think that's a direct quote. Yeah, yeah,

427
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 1: I'm what did he say? You're in a millionaire. You're

428
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: a millionaire in a huge band. You don't go, oh,

429
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this and also be void of criticism.

430
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: But he says this point really wasn't whether or not

431
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: the imagined dragons are good. He says he doesn't care,

432
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: but he his main point that he says is that

433
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: if you're that big, you should use your platform to

434
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: say something was substance, to make a difference, to try

435
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: to put forth a change the world, a positive change.

436
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: So he says that was really his point is that

437
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: they were singing radioactive who woa woa whoa whoa, and

438
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: not something that you know, not imagine not or you know,

439
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: not love it if we made it, you know, which

440
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: is basically just like a series of statements that are

441
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: pulled off of social media. You know. The thing from

442
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: that interview that he did with the Chicago radio station

443
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: that is irritating to me, uh is that he talked

444
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: about how and this is gonna be something that we

445
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 1: we talked about later in this episode but like, the

446
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: thing that is irritating about this argument that like you know,

447
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons, their music doesn't mean anything, and when people

448
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: listen to my music in the seventy five that they're

449
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: getting the right message from it. You know, whatever you

450
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: want to say about these bands. You know, if you

451
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: want to listen to Imagine Dragons and say this sucks,

452
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: I don't like this music, you know, that's your right

453
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: to say that. But the thing about Imagine Dragons and

454
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: Dan Reynolds specifically, is that he actually has been involved

455
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: in like tangible activism him in his career. He made

456
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, Imagine Dragons. They come from the Mormon community,

457
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: and Reynolds has been very reflective about how that community

458
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: is treated gays and lesbians, and he made a documentary

459
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: about it called Believer, which was about gay conversion therapy,

460
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: which is like one of the worst things that you

461
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: can do to a young person who is struggling with

462
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: their sexual identity. And he also started the Love Loud Festival,

463
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: which is this music festival that I believe raises money

464
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: for LGBTQ programs UM and this uh, I don't know

465
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: if you heard that interview the Chicago Radio interview that

466
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: Maddie Healy did. But at one point the DJ brings

467
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: this up, uh, and and Healy says, you know, that's

468
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: great that he's using his platform for this, and then

469
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: the DJ says, well, it's probably because of you because

470
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 1: you criticized him for this, and then he really says, oh, yeah,

471
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: well then that's right, which is like total bs. He

472
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: was doing it before that, you know, And it just

473
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: goes to show you just wonder like what like if

474
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: he would have heard that interview, Like how would Dan

475
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: Reynolds have reacted to that, you know, would be like,

476
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: I'm out here, you might think my band sucks, but

477
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: I am trying to use my platform for good and

478
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: yet this dude from is getting credit for this good

479
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: work that I'm trying to do. It like doesn't make

480
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: any sense. Yeah, I mean he I think he did

481
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: later on the interviews say, you know, I saw him

482
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: on the Billboard Music Awards give a speech about talking

483
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: about conversion therapy and how it needs to stop and

484
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: he and he praised him for it. But yeah, I

485
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: mean he was a little smug about it. And yeah,

486
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: but then but then the DJ, but then the DJ

487
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: said like he yeah, heally praises him for it, but

488
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: then the DJ says, um, well, it's probably because of

489
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: you that he did that, and then and he really

490
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: just kind of lets it go. And you know, look,

491
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: he's in he's in a radio interview. He probably doesn't

492
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: know all the contexts. I'm sure that if maybe he did,

493
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: he would have had a different reaction. But that's just

494
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: something that really irritated me when I heard about that,

495
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: and then I saw the interview. You know, I said

496
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: this earlier where I was talking about you know how

497
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: I really loved the Nine and I still love that band.

498
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: I think they make good music, but that was something

499
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: that really kind of like made me like them a

500
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: little less and actually, on the flip side, made me

501
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: appreciate Imagine Dragons a little bit more, even though I

502
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: may not care for their music. It was like, well,

503
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: they're trying to They're actually doing something tangible here. They're

504
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: actually doing something real, not just making a record. They're

505
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: actually trying to help people using their platform. Trying to

506
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: help people using their platform. I mean, and like what

507
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: you said about but Dan Reynolds, coming from the Mormon community,

508
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: did two years of of missionary work, and I believe

509
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: it's in Nebraska. I mean really was out there talking

510
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: to people, and a lot of his music. I mean

511
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: you may not like the music, but I mean it's

512
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: him grappling with his feelings, his feelings of depression, his feelings,

513
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: but you know, he's feelings about the Mormon community in general.

514
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Yeah, I mean there is substance to it.

515
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: You may not like how it comes across, but you're

516
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: right now when we talk about this, this rivalry, you

517
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: know we have you know, Maddie Healy taking shots that

518
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: imagine dragon saying your music doesn't mean anything. Dan Rayel saying, hey, bro,

519
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be good. Everyone's taking shots at me.

520
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: This is hurting my feelings when you dig down deep

521
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: beneath all that trash, talking to me what this is

522
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: really about. It's about credibility, you know, and and how

523
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: credibility ends up getting projected onto certain artists and not

524
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: projected onto other artists. And you know, we've had fun

525
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: with this in this episode, you know, taking shots that

526
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: imagine dragons. But there is a certain safety and making

527
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: fun of a band like Imagined Aragon's, like, you know,

528
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: if you were to make a joke about the Beatles

529
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: and say, you know, the Beatles are lame, the Beatles

530
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: aren't cool. You would have to defend that position. You know,

531
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: there would be a lot of people who if they

532
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: heard you say that, they would get upset. Or if

533
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: you said, I think Beyonce makes terrible music, I don't

534
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: think Beyonce is very beautiful. You know, if I said

535
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: these sorts of things. And by the way, I do

536
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: not want these comments isolated out of context in this podcast.

537
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: I do not. I'm just using that as an example

538
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: of a of an offensive opinion that I don't happen

539
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: to help to change your address. You're just as like

540
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: the bee Hive has already started stalking me. Uh. My

541
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: point is that if you make that kind of statement

542
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: about Beyonce, you're mocking Beyonce, or you're mocking the Beatles

543
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: or any kind of beloved artists like that, that you

544
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: have to be prepared to take a lot of heat.

545
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: You have to be prepared to defend that position. Whereas

546
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: a band like Imagined Dragons, you can take a shot

547
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: at them without even knowing anything about them, anything about

548
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: the care it's anything about like what the lead singer

549
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: does in his background for charity work, and you can

550
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: do that and not be challenged, And uh, there's something

551
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: really unfair about that, especially when you have a situation

552
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: like this where the nineteen seventy five in a way,

553
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: we're that kind of band for a few years, and

554
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: then they made the transition into sort of this you know,

555
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: area of critically acclaimed music or you know, taste maker

556
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: approved music, where they don't have that anymore. They don't

557
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: have that sort of negative patino around them, and it

558
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: allows them then to take a shot at a band

559
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: that does as a way to kind of bolster their

560
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: own reputation. And you know, it almost seems like five

561
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: succeeded despite themselves to be like you said, the SNL performance,

562
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: even you know, they like when You Sleep album title,

563
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: all these things are kind of objectively obnoxious. And also,

564
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: and I say this without and I say this without judgment,

565
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: Maddie Hilly's parents are both relatively success full actors in

566
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: the UK. So he had a I'm not gonna say

567
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: an open door into the industry. Obviously said they tried

568
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: many different incarnations before they were successful, But I mean

569
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: he had maybe a slightly easier route than your average

570
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: British school kid, and that usually I would assume would

571
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: be the kiss of death for any kind of you know,

572
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: rock band looking for credibilities having like I think his

573
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: his mom was on the basically the UK equivalent of

574
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: the view called loose Women. And you know, if you

575
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: really want to view having credibility as a rock and

576
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: roll as have coming from you know, struggle from being

577
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: a trucker from Tupelo or whatever. You know, you couldn't

578
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: get much further away than where he came from. But yeah,

579
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: it seems like despite all that he's well dressed, handsome,

580
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: dating the supermodel whatever, we kind of buy into that.

581
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: It's almost like a fake it till you make it

582
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: thing that he just kind of looked the part. Yeah,

583
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: and it's fascinating here too, because I feel like in

584
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: the past when you had these sort of credibility battles,

585
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: it was because like one band was maybe like the

586
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: slick pop band, you know, it was a bunch of

587
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: handsome guys and like suits or you know, they were

588
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: working with big pop stars and they're having big mainstream hits,

589
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: whereas the other band would be like the more underground,

590
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: gritty loud, kind of more traditional rock band, and that

591
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: would be how the contrast was set up. It's like

592
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: you're not real because you're not wearing blue jeans and

593
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: you know, smoking cigarettes and written songs about, you know,

594
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: smashing cars into brick walls like we are over here

595
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: the real rockers. You don't have that contrast in this revelry.

596
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: They're both big pop groups that freely mixed genres, and

597
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: you could say that they're both kind of operating in

598
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: the same lane. You know. It's not as if the

599
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five is this like gritty band. They're not

600
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: the second coming of the Stooges or anything. You know,

601
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: They're they're they're it's not MC five. No, they have

602
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: a lot. It's a very similar sonic palette to what

603
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons is doing. Maybe the difference here is the

604
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: context that you hear the music in. You know, imagine Dragons,

605
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: um is a football add their football ad there, you know,

606
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: there they're in like you know, you could hear Radioactive.

607
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure that was like in at least one trailer

608
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: for like a Fast and Furious movie, you know, or

609
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: one trailer for a Rambo movie or something, whereas the

610
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: nine seventy five. You know, it's maybe more of like

611
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: a hip, kind of more curated type environment. It's it's

612
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 1: the kind of environment that frankly like people you and

613
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: I are probably more familiar with. You know. It's like,

614
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: I feel like Imagine Dragons is probably way more popular

615
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways than the nineteen seventy five is.

616
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: And yet if you are in like a media world,

617
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: or you're like in maybe an indie rock world, the

618
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five seem like they're a more prominent band,

619
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: and you may not even know about Imagine Dragons exactly.

620
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: I think you actually, I think you might have actually

621
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: said this in I think it's your grant Land piece

622
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: where they exist in two very different spheres. And that's

623
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: just how many five just feels like internet music to me,

624
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: whereas Imagine Dragons feel like radio and and physical copies

625
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: and stuff. And there's not a lot of overlap in

626
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And I don't mean that as

627
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: a euphemism for coastal versus Heartland, or millennials versus boomers

628
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: there anything like that. It just seems like two very

629
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: different audiences. And well, let me ask you a question.

630
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: And I don't know the answer to this is, what

631
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: does it mean to you to be a credible musician?

632
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I feel like the goalposts

633
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: on that have shifted so much. I think that there

634
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: was a time when being a credible musician meant that

635
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: you weren't on a major label, that you weren't making commercially,

636
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: you know, viable music more of like a nineties alternative

637
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: rock type credibility, Whereas now I feel like that's almost flipped,

638
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: where your credibility comes from connecting with an audience and

639
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: it comes from being popular. You know. I'm not defending

640
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: that as like as a rubric for what credibility should be,

641
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: but I mean, I feel like I see more music

642
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: dismiss because it's not popular than I ever did when

643
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: I was younger. I feel like that, like when I

644
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: was a kid, it was like, if this thing isn't popular,

645
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: that actually means that it's good. That anything that is

646
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: popular it has to be bad, you know, to be

647
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: able to reach a big audience that's interesting. You think

648
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: that's flipped. You think that that's now more if it's

649
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: popular means it is good that I guess that's interesting.

650
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: Maybe even because of social media or anything here. It's

651
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: the same thing. If it's easier to criticize somebody like

652
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons, you don't have to back it up. It's

653
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: just as easy to say, oh, I like this band

654
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: because everyone on every website that I like, and I

655
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 1: mean I think I think it's I think it's different

656
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 1: for big rock bands in a way that it isn't

657
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: for pop stars. I think that with a band like

658
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: Imagined Dragons, I don't think they necessarily benefit from being

659
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: a big band in terms of credibility, in the same

660
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: way that you know, someone like Ariana Grande benefits from

661
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: being such a ubiquitous force and culture. There's something kind

662
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: of corny I always about mainstream rock band. So I

663
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: think that's always been true, you know, going back to

664
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: the seventies with Grand Funk Railroad and into the eighties

665
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: with Journey and bon Jovie. You know, like the band

666
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: that's always like the really popular rock band, uh is

667
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: always looked at as being kind of lame. I think

668
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: and Imagine Dragons in that respect is very much sort

669
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: of a classic mainstream rock band. All right, hen we'll

670
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: be right back with more rivals. Okay, So we have

671
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: Imagined Dragons in squaring off here, Let's make the pro

672
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: imagine Dragon's argument first, what would you say, like if

673
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: you were to side with them, Like, what do you

674
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: think makes them come ahead in this rivalry? I mean,

675
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: I think the obvious answer has just got to be

676
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: just sheer commercial success. I mean they have broken records.

677
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: I think that Radioactive broke the record for banning. I

678
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: think it's eighty seven weeks on the Billboard Hot one hundred,

679
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: broke a billion streams on YouTube. H god, I mean

680
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: they I think it's the best selling rock single Nielsen

681
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: sound scan history, at least digital. Uh, it's pretty amazing.

682
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: I mean they were the first act to have three

683
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: songs spend at least a year on the Billboard Hot

684
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: one hundred. Uh yeah. I mean it's just there's a

685
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: million of those stats for them that you could rattle off.

686
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it just goes on and on and on,

687
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: and it's funny. It's just you don't think of them

688
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: as being that huge, but when you actually look at

689
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: the numbers they are, They're enormous, and they're enormous in

690
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: a way that very few rock bands are. That they

691
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: can compete on a level that you know they can

692
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: cosist with any big pop star really for the most

693
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: part in terms of just their sheer numbers. And I

694
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: think also that speaks to the influence that they've had

695
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 1: on music in the last decade or so, that because

696
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: of the way that they've been able to integrate rock

697
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: into other genres and use it as a pathway to

698
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: pop success. I mean, really, pretty much any successful rock band,

699
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, follow Boy or Panic at the

700
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: Disco or twenty one Pilots or whoever the whoever it

701
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: may be, you know, they've followed that same template to success.

702
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: You know, they're not playing straight guitar songs. You know,

703
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: they're they're playing songs that if you didn't know any better,

704
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: you know, they it could sound like a hip hop song,

705
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: or it could sound like a pop song or an

706
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: R and B song. So yeah, I mean, I think

707
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: you're right that just their sheer success is undeniable in

708
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: a way, even if you hate the music. I mean,

709
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 1: you can't deny the the way that they've connected with

710
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: a huge audience. I'm not going to moan about, you know,

711
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: the formula of the formula, because there have been you know,

712
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: people have been talking about the formula in pop music

713
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: since you know, the Beach Boys in the sixties and

714
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: even further back. But there is something I said this

715
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: earlier that feels maybe just maybe this is just me

716
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 1: disingenuous about how it's all blended in there. It seems

717
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: to be such a mishmash almost game the playlist system

718
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: that just to kind of have a lot something for

719
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: everybody so that it's completely I think I read some

720
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: or the lowest common denominator rock, and I know that's

721
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: kind of an easy, lazy term, but it does feel

722
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: so uh so watered down and so just general that

723
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: they're in there. There is no sound that it has.

724
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: It's just a little bit of everything that it does

725
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 1: feel kind of opportunistic, I mean, but the flip side

726
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: of that is they have an identifiable sound. I was

727
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: going to say, hear a song which is rare. Today

728
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: we're defending imagine dragons right now. We gotta we gotta

729
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: make the pro case. You're you're going into the negative

730
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: case here, but I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's like, as

731
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: music critics, we can't say nice things about imagining dragons

732
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: for too long without going into the negative. It's just

733
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: against our nature. I think to be too nice to

734
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: this band, I will say, because I think everything you

735
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: said is right, I would agree with everything you just said,

736
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 1: but since we're still defending them, I would I would

737
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: also say that for me. Another pro case for Imagine

738
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: Dragons is the fact that Dan Reynolds has been genuinely

739
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: active as an activist and that, you know, for Maddie

740
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: Healy to accuse him of, you know, propagating nothingness. Yeah,

741
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him attempt anything on the scale of

742
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: the Love Loud Festival. I haven't seen him make a

743
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: documentary about gay conversion therapy. You know, even if you

744
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: hate the music, you know, they have put their money

745
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: where their mouths is in that regard, and I think

746
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: that is uh to be lauded. Now for the pro

747
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: nine case, I have a feeling that this is gonna

748
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: be much shorter than our probe Imagine Dragon's case, because

749
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, we were making all these concessions about, you know,

750
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: things that we think are admirable or that you can't

751
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: argue against with Imagine Dragons. But you know, again we're

752
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of beating around the bush here that I think

753
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: for both of us, we're not really fans of their music,

754
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: And ultimately the pro case for the nineteen seventy five

755
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: is that I think they make better records. You know,

756
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: there are songs by the nineteen seventy five that I

757
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: think are good. And if you're just gonna make it

758
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: purely about artistic quality, you know, I think nineteen seventy

759
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: five trances Imagine Dragons, even though again I do think

760
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: to go back to what we were saying before, that

761
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: these bands are more similar than they are dissimilar. I think,

762
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: if you're going to trash imagine Dragons for being a

763
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: band that is sort of mixing everything together and trying

764
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 1: to appeal to everyone at once. The nineteen seventy five

765
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: are doing the same thing. You know, they are very

766
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 1: adept at reaching a wide variety of people that might

767
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: not actually listen to all that much rock music. But

768
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: they connect with the nineteen seventy five because they think

769
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: of them more as a pop band. Um. So for me, ultimately,

770
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: it all comes down to execution. You know, even if

771
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: they're working in the same lane, I still like the

772
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: way the nineteen s executes this sort of pop rock

773
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: music more than the Imagine Dragons style, which you know,

774
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: I think the nineteen seventy five to their credit. For

775
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: as bombastic and silly as they can be, there is

776
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: still more nuance And maybe I don't know if kraft

777
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 1: is the right word, but they're not beating you over

778
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: the head as sort of redundantly the way that Imagined

779
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: Dragons does. You know, They're not saying radioactive a million

780
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: times in the course of four minutes. There are other

781
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: lyrics and their songs, and some of their lyrics are

782
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: actually quite clever, and I don't know if you could

783
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: say that about Imagine Dragon songs. So as much as

784
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: I admire Dan Reynolds for his activists work, and you know, again,

785
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: you can't take away their success just on pure tunes,

786
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: I gotta go with the nineteen seventy five. I agree.

787
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because they are equally, as

788
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: you said, stylistically diverse. It's almost like, instead of with

789
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: Imagine Dragons, it's every song there's twelve different genres. The

790
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: m seventy five, it almost feels like every album has

791
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: twelve different genres, and every song is kind of a

792
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: different playing musical dress up in a way, which is

793
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: is interesting. And I know and I know that some

794
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: people have criticized them for that, but something that's interesting,

795
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: and I think Matty Healey actually said something about this too,

796
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: where they're making music the way that people their age

797
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: are consuming it. On Spotify, every kind of genre music

798
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: is available just at their fingertips, and so people who

799
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: are fans can hop around and have a much more

800
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: diverse interest in music and it's not just one genre anymore.

801
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: And they said that they're basically making music in the

802
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: same way that they consume it, which is all over

803
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 1: the place. And that's I thought that was a really

804
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: refreshing take on it, and a really honest take and

805
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: something that I hadn't really consider it until I read that,

806
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: which it made me appreciate their music more, thinking, Okay,

807
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: this isn't just somebody who doesn't know who they are

808
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: and they're trying on stuff to see, you know, what

809
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: looks best and what works. It's actually people who who

810
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: you know, are are fans of music and like music

811
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: and are just going with their gut in any given moment,

812
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I know that sounds trite, but

813
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: it also sounds profound, just like the nineteen seventy five

814
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: I think what you just said, it's a good way

815
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: to kind of bring us into the conclusion of this discussion,

816
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: because at the end of every episode, you know, we

817
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: like there to be a moment of peace. You know,

818
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: we want to bring these groups back together. We want

819
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: to bring these rivals back to the same table, and

820
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: so maybe they can see eye to eye. And yeah,

821
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: I think we've reiterated a couple of times in this

822
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: discussion that with both of these groups, you know, whatever

823
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: they may think about each other's music or whatever you

824
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: might think about about either band, there is a sort

825
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: of shared sensibility in a way of approaching rock music

826
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: and pop music in this era, which is that you

827
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: don't have to stick to one genre. You don't have

828
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: to just make the sort of cookie cutter rock song

829
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: that we associate with like classic rock of the past.

830
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: That rock music can evolve and it can in you

831
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: integrate with other genres, and it can still connect with

832
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: a large number of people, even if it doesn't sound

833
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: maybe like the rock music that your parents listen to,

834
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: it's still something that means a lot to all sorts

835
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: of people. And you know, Mattie Healy, for for his

836
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: audience with the nineteen seventy five he feels that they're

837
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: resonating for the right reasons when they listen in nineteen

838
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: seventy five, I'm sure Dan Reynolds would say the same

839
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: thing about Imagine Dragons that even if they have you know,

840
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say they have millions more

841
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: listeners than the nineteen seventy five do at this point. Um,

842
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: but you know, he he, I'm sure he feels that

843
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: he's putting on something posse of of as well, that

844
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: he wants to make the culture better with with with

845
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: this music. So you know, I think both of these guys,

846
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: both of these bands ultimately have their hearts in the

847
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: right place, and I think in their own ways, they're

848
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: they're progressive musically, you know, whether you like them or not, right,

849
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: I mean, And both artists when they say that, they're

850
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: basically just saying our fans are the best fans, which

851
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Speaker 1: is you know, always, Yeah, I mean that's that's what

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Speaker 1: they're saying. So yeah, I mean, that's that's nice, you know,

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Speaker 1: And exactly they think they're fans the best. They Imagine

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Speaker 1: Dragons think Imagine Dragons fans are the best nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: five things. Nineteen seventy five fans are the best, But

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Speaker 1: the best fans are the fans of Rivals. Rivals fans

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Speaker 1: are the best. Jordan is always a pleasure talking with you.

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00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure talking to our fans out there.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I'm excited to do it again next week.

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Speaker 1: Stephen can't wait. Thank you. Take Care of SHO. Rivals

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Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers

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00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: are Shawn Tyitone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are

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Speaker 1: Taylor Chacogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk and

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00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please

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00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: subscribe to leave us a review. From more podcasts from

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00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, Visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or ever you listen to your favorite shows.