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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 1: my name is known. They called me Ben, and you're

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Speaker 1: you the most important part of this show, which is,

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Speaker 1: of course stuff they don't want you to know. Ladies

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Speaker 1: and gentlemen, if this is your first time listening, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for dropping by. We we hope that

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Speaker 1: you come by later to then I have to clear

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Speaker 1: the air here. You did all of your intro with

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Speaker 1: your eyes covered but forcefully, sort of a pained expression

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Speaker 1: on your face. What was that about? I'm I'm good.

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Speaker 1: Are my eyes back to regular? Almost? Okay? Oh? Do

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Speaker 1: they do that flippy things where they yeah, yeah, Are

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Speaker 1: you doing the reptilian stuff in the studio? I asked

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Speaker 1: you not to do that, But we got pretty deep

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Speaker 1: into that Reptilian episode. We got a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of really interesting listener mail. Well, it came to

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Speaker 1: a point where we were all just thinking with a

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Speaker 1: hive mind. M and I wonder if we should if

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Speaker 1: we were on the fence about whether we should have

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Speaker 1: cut the part where for like seventeen minutes we spoke

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Speaker 1: in unison. Yeah, I wonder if did you notice that?

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Speaker 1: I just didn't know what language it was. But today

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Speaker 1: we are not talking about lizard people. Today we were

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Speaker 1: talking about uh something something completely different as they used

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Speaker 1: to see, perhaps a monty python. We are talking about

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Speaker 1: what is popularly known in the US as the Vietnam War. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you are someone who is Matt or nol or

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Speaker 1: Eye's age, then you likely have relatives, if you're in

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Speaker 1: the u US, who have been involved in that conflict.

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Speaker 1: And if not, then even at least seen Platoon right, yes,

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Speaker 1: or any of the pieces of popular media that have

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Speaker 1: come out since the nineteen seventies, Sure, Rambo, First Blood,

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Speaker 1: Apocalypse Now which is my personal favorite, Forrest Gump, even

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Speaker 1: Forrest Gump even yes, and this. Um. So the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: what what the U S usually refers to it as

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Speaker 1: is the American incursion with the idea of preventing the

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Speaker 1: rise of communism in Southeast Asia. That was the official

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Speaker 1: advertisement on the tin when it was sold to the

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Speaker 1: American public. Uh this later Uh this this later expanded

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Speaker 1: past Vietnam into Cambodia and Lao. This this war has

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Speaker 1: had a lastening and um a lasting and profound effect

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Speaker 1: both on the people of the US and the people

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Speaker 1: of Vietnam, as well as arguably the people of Russia

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Speaker 1: or the Soviet Union at the time, because it ended

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Speaker 1: up being a giant proxy war, right, Yeah, exactly. And

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam Wars we consider it began in nineteen fifty five.

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Speaker 1: Direct US involvement officially ended with the signing of a

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Speaker 1: treaty called the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring

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Speaker 1: Peace in Vietnam. A little on the nose in them, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a little undernose. I guess they had to

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Speaker 1: spell it out, you know. Uh. And that was on

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Speaker 1: January nine, seventy three. This document is most often known

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Speaker 1: as the Paris Peace Accords. The war itself didn't end

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Speaker 1: until seventy five with the fall of Saigon. But what

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Speaker 1: what did this agreement do? Well? The agreement itself actually

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Speaker 1: resulted in the release of five hundred ninety one American

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Speaker 1: prisoners of war, of whom five sixty six were military

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Speaker 1: and twenty five were civilians. Um. In addition to that,

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Speaker 1: it established a framework for cooperation and resolving the po

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Speaker 1: w M I A related question, so prisoners of war

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Speaker 1: and missing in action, and there were there were quite

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Speaker 1: a few questions about that. So yeah, And because of this,

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Speaker 1: from February nineteen seventy three to April nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam conducted what was called Operation Homecoming, and this

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Speaker 1: returned prisoners of war to the United States. It rescued

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Speaker 1: five hundred and ninety one in total. So as of

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, around one thousand, six twenty one Americans are

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Speaker 1: still officially considered missing or unaccounted for for some reason

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Speaker 1: or another during this Vietnam conflict, the Vietnam War, or

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Speaker 1: whatever else it was called at the time. And this

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Speaker 1: may be a point where many many of us are

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Speaker 1: listening in the audience may be saying, wait, you guys

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Speaker 1: just sort of glossed over the Vietnam War all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, It's did this is not exactly about the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War or the conflict in Southeast Asia. Because the

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Speaker 1: US has identified two hundred and nineties six individuals as

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Speaker 1: last known alive cases in all of Southeast Asia and

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Speaker 1: following full investigations, by March of the Defense Department confirmed

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Speaker 1: the wartime death of two hundred and forty five of

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Speaker 1: these individuals too there um to their official standards, because this,

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Speaker 1: friends is the official narrative. However, in the decades since

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Speaker 1: the withdrawal of US troops, numerous former military officials, government officials,

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Speaker 1: and members of the public believe that this country, the

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Speaker 1: United States of America, left service members behind in Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: in Cambodia, and in Laos and Cambodia and Laoser's particularly

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Speaker 1: sticky subjects, as in many many cases, the US was

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Speaker 1: not supposed to be up there, and they were officially, um,

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Speaker 1: we're not there. And a lot of these people don't

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Speaker 1: just believe that they were left behind, you know, as in,

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Speaker 1: oh oops, we left a bunch of our servicemen behind. No,

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Speaker 1: they think it was done on purpose, and that the

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Speaker 1: US government has not only not been looking for these

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Speaker 1: missing soldiers, but actively obstructing any searches and covering up

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Speaker 1: the entire affair for the last forty odd years, right

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Speaker 1: almost half a century. Double yikes, double y Why would

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Speaker 1: why would people think that this is an extraordinarily common

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Speaker 1: belief here in the US And and we don't know

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Speaker 1: this is a very US specific topic. Right, So we're

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Speaker 1: not sure you know how Australian listeners feel about this,

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Speaker 1: European listeners or listeners in UH, China or Vietnam and

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Speaker 1: specific uh around the world. So do right in and

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Speaker 1: let us know if you have her heard of this before,

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Speaker 1: which is considered a miscarriage of justice by some and

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Speaker 1: an out and out conspiracy theory by others. So why

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Speaker 1: on earth would the government do something like that. Let's

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Speaker 1: look at sort of the evolution of this. Suspicions about

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Speaker 1: remaining servicemen start almost immediately after the signing of the

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Speaker 1: Paris Piece Accords with we we're just going to call

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Speaker 1: him that because, as you pointed out, that name is

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Speaker 1: a it's a mouthful. Yeah. No, I like the Paris

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Speaker 1: Piece of cords. That's got a nice ring to it.

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Speaker 1: The other one is just like, who's d LDR? Who

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Speaker 1: are we going to save some money on paper? Guys

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Speaker 1: like So this is okay, right, you're right, that's fair.

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Speaker 1: Things were very tacky back then. Yeah, well there were

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Speaker 1: longer names, is what I'm saying for things. Um, yes,

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Speaker 1: all it is. It is true. This is a related

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Speaker 1: point for anybody who is not alive in nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 1: All names were actually longer, every single one. The United

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Speaker 1: States of America was actually the United States of Cooperative

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Speaker 1: Municipalities with the intention to act in concert of America.

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Speaker 1: COMMA named after Amerigo Vespucci the movie Yes, the Ride

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Speaker 1: dot com. Yeah, yeah, that's actually where the internet comes from?

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Speaker 1: Is that that name? Facts? Ladies and gentlemen, these are facts,

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Speaker 1: alternative facts. Perhaps we're perhaps if this sounds crazier, this

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Speaker 1: is the first time you're hearing it, we invite you

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Speaker 1: to check out our earlier podcast on the Mandela Effect.

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Speaker 1: So President Nixon at the end of this he states

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Speaker 1: that all the POW's have been returned, and now at

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Speaker 1: the time, the US listed two thousand six d forty

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Speaker 1: six Americans as unaccounted for, including about d and fifty

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Speaker 1: prisoners of war or missing an action and roughly reported

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Speaker 1: killed in action but the body not recovered, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, in all seriousness, a a profound tragedy, you know,

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Speaker 1: because what happens to the closure for those families, I

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Speaker 1: would think not incredibly uncommon, though maybe that's a high number,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you're in a war situation where bodies

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Speaker 1: can be completely obliterated by you know, explosions where you're

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Speaker 1: not going to have any remains, but it's too difficult

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Speaker 1: to retrieve them without any commanding officer even knowing a

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Speaker 1: general location absolutely or you know, a general fate. That's

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Speaker 1: that's uncommon. I mean, war is one of the most

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Speaker 1: brutal inventions of our society. And you know, okay, arguably

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Speaker 1: humans didn't invent it, because it has been documented that

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Speaker 1: other primates have large scale uh conflicts or at least

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Speaker 1: tribal level conflicts. But humans have taken it to an

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Speaker 1: insidious art form. And you're you're absolutely right. It's it's

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Speaker 1: odd to have such precise numbers for people who are

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Speaker 1: not familiar with this. The Vietnam War from the us

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Speaker 1: I had some of the best documentation for war of

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Speaker 1: its kind, so we are able to know more of

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Speaker 1: these numbers than we would know, for instance, in World

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Speaker 1: War two. Right, But Nolan is absolutely right. People disappear

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Speaker 1: in war, you know, and that's the that's the question.

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Speaker 1: So there's this there's this one thing that that is

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Speaker 1: kind of a a spark point. It's the turn back

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Speaker 1: now or you know, delve into the murky stuff that

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Speaker 1: occurs when there's a very low number of POWs returned

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Speaker 1: from LAOS, and this causes immediate concern because the pen

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Speaker 1: gone in secret meetings, right, not really revealed to the public.

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Speaker 1: I thought there would be as many as forty or

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Speaker 1: forty one prisoners held there, um only if you have

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Speaker 1: been known to be captured for certain And a tiny,

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Speaker 1: like a negligible amount of people came back, like three

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Speaker 1: or something, and the responsibility for finding these missing soldiers

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Speaker 1: fell to you're gonna You're gonna like this one fell

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Speaker 1: to the Defense Prisoner of War SLASH Missing Personnel Office

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Speaker 1: and the Joint po w M I A accounting commands.

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Speaker 1: Can we at least make it a sexy acronym? I know,

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Speaker 1: right well you will be happy to know. No. All

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Speaker 1: that in the National Defense Authorization Act combined those two

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Speaker 1: agencies into one, so thank god, and along with one

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Speaker 1: other thing. But yeah, just tack it onto the end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh the ride the movie dot com. So then in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties, the the relatives, the family

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Speaker 1: and friends of all of these missing personnel started getting

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Speaker 1: agitated because as you do, uh, they started becoming politically active,

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Speaker 1: and they start requesting that the United States reveal what

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Speaker 1: steps they were taking, what steps they took and are

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Speaker 1: continue to take to follow up on their missing relatives

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Speaker 1: and their loved ones, Like what kind of intelligence do

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Speaker 1: you have with regards to these missing and action soldiers? Right,

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Speaker 1: they started demanding accountability, And regardless of what you personally

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Speaker 1: believe in terms of politics or the role of governments

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Speaker 1: and state versus federal, local, what have you, Uh, accountability

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Speaker 1: should be key in any of these things. And accountability

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Speaker 1: goes both ways, you know what I mean, to the

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Speaker 1: citizen as well as to the institutions. So this, this

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Speaker 1: is a good move, and this is this move is

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Speaker 1: saying initially saying, just well, tell us what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, shed some light on this

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Speaker 1: process because these people could very well be alive. In

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Speaker 1: some cases, they just know when they were last seen

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Speaker 1: alive and it was years ago, right, where was months ago?

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Speaker 1: So this is almost a black box for these relatives

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Speaker 1: and these loved ones. So initial inquiries revealed that important

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Speaker 1: information had not been pursued, and so many families and

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Speaker 1: their supporters asked for the public release of these records

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Speaker 1: and called for full investigation. So when we say important

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Speaker 1: information and not been pursued. We're saying stuff like UM

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Speaker 1: an intelligence agency intercepts a radio transmission from Thailand that

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Speaker 1: details they the details they've cited. UM A work camp

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Speaker 1: you know, with like eleven people who are clearly not Vietnamese,

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Speaker 1: Cambodian or Ovation, and that they're being held after the

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Speaker 1: war is something. But then the intelligence agency on the

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Speaker 1: U S I would say, well, that's Thailand, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, We're gonna trust this foreign intercept or whatever.

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Speaker 1: We just sit on it because it's not it doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem like it's pertinent to any major investigation you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Right then right? And then also, you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: fair question like how do you discern the belogne from

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Speaker 1: the what's a better meat than Bologne? Thereso tereso, you know,

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Speaker 1: a good generous salami? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. How

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Speaker 1: do you separate the belogny from the thereso and good

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Speaker 1: genoa salami? It's tough. It's tough in the intelligence community. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you can't send people out to investigate every single one.

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Speaker 1: It's just not possible. I mean you can, you can

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Speaker 1: try your hardest, but it is a part of my

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Speaker 1: French here it is. It can sometimes be a no

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Speaker 1: win situation. Well, it's like you get bogged down in

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Speaker 1: the the idea that bureaucracy is inherently inefficient and massive

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Speaker 1: and you know, and a pain, and then you realized

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Speaker 1: that the only reason it exists is to manage the

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Speaker 1: massive and inefficient and painful, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: So it's like you can't really fault it every time

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Speaker 1: for not being able to be everything to everybody, right,

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Speaker 1: and and on that perspective too, it might be a

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Speaker 1: damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, because like,

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Speaker 1: think about it, So if okay, everybody listening, let's say

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Speaker 1: all of us are the CIA in the seventies and eighties. Congratulations,

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Speaker 1: were sorry. I had to find out this way. So

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Speaker 1: one of us gets one of us or one group

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Speaker 1: of us gets a report that says, all right, foreign

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Speaker 1: radio intercept has said that has identified you know, a

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Speaker 1: dozen people in a remote area being working in forced agriculture.

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Speaker 1: Then the question becomes as as we, already, being a

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Speaker 1: large organization, say like, okay, well, if we don't investigate this,

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Speaker 1: then there is a risk that we will have we

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Speaker 1: will have screwed. But if we do investigate this and

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Speaker 1: we don't find anything, then we will be roasted over

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Speaker 1: the coals for you know, frivolous government spending or something.

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Speaker 1: Or since you know, listeners, you and Matt, Noel and

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Speaker 1: I are now part of this fictional CIA or Another

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Speaker 1: thing is if we delve into this, is it going

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Speaker 1: to interfere with other active operations that we have in

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Speaker 1: the area. Yeah. Well, and here's here's the craziest part.

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Speaker 1: This idea that the government isn't doing everything it can

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Speaker 1: do to get the loved ones of these people back.

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Speaker 1: That is a polarizing concept, and that if you latch

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Speaker 1: onto that, let's say, as a politician in the public sector,

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Speaker 1: then you're you're going to some votes from a good

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Speaker 1: number of people if you're championing this idea that the

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Speaker 1: government is not doing everything it can do, or even

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Speaker 1: like a faction of the government because of certain leanings,

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Speaker 1: maybe even you can kind of characterize it as a

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Speaker 1: political issue rather than just a matter of unmanageable situations.

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Speaker 1: You know. Well, and it doesn't even matter if you, uh,

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Speaker 1: the person running truly believes there, right, Yeah, Unfortunately, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's the rule with a lot of political stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know and and this is this is an issue

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Speaker 1: that UM. This is an issue that politicians have investigated

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Speaker 1: or advocated on any political strike. Ross Perrow was very

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Speaker 1: big into UM trying to discover the truth behind this

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Speaker 1: and did believe that there were people left behind and abandoned. Uh.

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Speaker 1: John Kerry, John McCain, George H. W. Bush like it.

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Speaker 1: It goes across the spectrum. And George W. Bush was

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Speaker 1: c I A at least for a time. Yes, is

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Speaker 1: anybody do you ever become not CIA? We've had this

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Speaker 1: discussion before. I think you're right. You are always like

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Speaker 1: at least in the club. I feel like you have

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Speaker 1: to be. You've got information if you've been in the

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Speaker 1: CIA that we we can't let you into the wrong hands.

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Speaker 1: It's like being the president maybe when the president and

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Speaker 1: you're referred to as they don't really call you the

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Speaker 1: former president. Do they call you the president? Mr? Presidents

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Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, people don't call you Jimmy anymore. People

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Speaker 1: don't happens to you. You you become someone else entirely

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Speaker 1: in your mind, is not your own. It's true. Man.

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Speaker 1: And have you've seen those before and after pictures of

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Speaker 1: every president since the invention of photography. It's it will

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Speaker 1: wear you down. Actually, the black and white ones where

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Speaker 1: the bags under the eyes are so incredibly just like pools.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. Man. Well, um, while we're on this subject,

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Speaker 1: we do have to examine this because this didn't just

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Speaker 1: stop in the in the seventies. This didn't just stop,

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Speaker 1: um like with a hard stop and a couple of investigations.

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Speaker 1: This we're on and on and on, and they're tantalizing

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Speaker 1: hints two different parts of this story, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to give you a few after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: Let's begin looking at a few examples here. The first

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Speaker 1: one comes from nineteen seventy nine. The gentleman whose name

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Speaker 1: is Bobby Garwood, Private Bobby Garwood. He returned to the

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Speaker 1: United States and seventy nine after fourteen years living as

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Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. Now he says, he he says,

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Speaker 1: claims that he was one of many soldiers still being

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Speaker 1: held in Vietnam and several other countries in the Jason area,

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Speaker 1: like you said, Ben Laos, several others um so. The

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Speaker 1: United States denied these allegations, and furthermore, they claimed that

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Speaker 1: Garwood was actually a collaborator. He was in on the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. He wasn't a prisoner that he went over

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Speaker 1: the hill and turned coat. Right. He was reportedly released

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three with some other American POWs, but

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Speaker 1: he did not return to the United States until March

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Speaker 1: twenty second, nineteen seventy nine. During that time, he was

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Speaker 1: listed as either having volunteered or been forced into a

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Speaker 1: work group repairing a generator at a re education camp.

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Speaker 1: Other reports described him as working an island fortress or

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Speaker 1: being a driver and vehicle mechanic whoa When he gets

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Speaker 1: back in seventy nine, over a period of eleven months,

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Speaker 1: he faces a general court martial at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: because other Marines testified like other not just Marines, but

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Speaker 1: other service members testified seeing him in action with VC

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Speaker 1: with Vietcong UH. So he UH. He was found not

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Speaker 1: guilty of desertion or solicitation of U. S troops in

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Speaker 1: the field to defect or maltreatment. UH. He was convicted

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Speaker 1: in Night one of communicating with the enemy and the

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Speaker 1: assault of an American pow at a camp and that

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Speaker 1: violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He was The

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Speaker 1: court martial sentenced him the reduction to a private forfeiture

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Speaker 1: of all pay and allowance is dishonorable discharge, but he

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Speaker 1: was not confined. He appealed, his conviction was upheld. Robert

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Speaker 1: Garwood says that he saw other American POWs after nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three, and he insists that he himself had been

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Speaker 1: prisoner for fourteen years. Um many of the POWs who

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Speaker 1: claimed have seen him collaborated with the enemy also feel

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Speaker 1: he should not have been court martial because that's the thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, is if he is, if he was imprisoned,

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Speaker 1: and which is a story that the American public will

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Speaker 1: probably never know him full if it was in prison,

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Speaker 1: was he forced to cooperate or did he choose to

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Speaker 1: you know, it gets it gets sticky, sou so according

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Speaker 1: to this guy, and according to the people who believe

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Speaker 1: that there were purposefully abandoned POWs or service members uh

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Speaker 1: in in country after seventy three, this guy has been

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Speaker 1: silenced because he's telling the truth. But to other people

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Speaker 1: two critics of that belief, he is trying to cover

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Speaker 1: his own you know, cover his own high courts, which

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Speaker 1: at this point you can you can easily go down

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Speaker 1: a rabbit hole of who said what and what happened where,

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Speaker 1: But the facts remain he was not convicted of collaborating

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Speaker 1: with the enemy. Then we have an investigation led by

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Speaker 1: John Kerry in Senator Carry Um was the head of

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Speaker 1: a select committee investigation into the intelligence services process UM

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Speaker 1: searching for remaining POWs in Vietnam. There were two former

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Speaker 1: Defense secretaries, Melvin Laird and James Schlessinger, who said the

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Speaker 1: Nixon administration most definitely knew that there were still POWs

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Speaker 1: in Vietnam after the close of Operation Homecoming. The investigation

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Speaker 1: also revealed that thousands of files from the n s

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Speaker 1: A on missing soldiers which were written during the war,

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Speaker 1: were completely ignored by intelligence services after the war. Um

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Speaker 1: and then after two years, the Kerry Committee came to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that there was no compelling evidence that any

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Speaker 1: American soldiers were still being held. Um not just in Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: but in any Southeast Asian countries felt that this was

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Speaker 1: definitively the case. Um and then a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist,

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Speaker 1: Sydney Schauenberg, accused the committee of assisting in a government

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Speaker 1: cover up. And I mean, if you kind of have

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Speaker 1: a government cover up, what better smoke screen for than

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Speaker 1: a you know, tireless investigation that supposedly puts all of

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Speaker 1: these concerns too bad. Just like JFK assassination, just like

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Speaker 1: the nine eleven Commission, we got a way of something

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Speaker 1: around for the public to latch onto and say, oh no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's fine. See see see look at all this paper.

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Speaker 1: These are very long names. Yes, and I know that

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Speaker 1: sounds flippants, but for people who were opponents of that

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Speaker 1: investigation or thought it was a cover up, this was.

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Speaker 1: It was exactly the same kind of tactic, right, And

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Speaker 1: it's very important to say that what we're doing is

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Speaker 1: exploring the differing views of this side. We're not casting

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Speaker 1: aspersion on any service member or any government official. We're

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Speaker 1: just telling you where these people stand on what they say,

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Speaker 1: and where they disagree. And the people who head like

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Speaker 1: that this was a cover up, these were not fringe

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Speaker 1: members of society, you know, as an all said Politzer

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Speaker 1: Prize winning journalists, this became an increasingly common belief. It

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Speaker 1: was a very unpopular war. People were at people were

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Speaker 1: at odds on all sorts of levels, and distrust of

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Speaker 1: the government was very high. So of course it seems

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Speaker 1: like something that would happen, you know, and that one

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Speaker 1: of the big questions would be, well, what is the motivation?

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Speaker 1: And so when the official narrative came came down, and

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Speaker 1: you know, veterans like John Kerry veteran, right, John McCain, veterans,

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Speaker 1: these these um former military members who were serving in

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Speaker 1: federal government came back and said, you know, we gave

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Speaker 1: it our best shot, and we tried to figure out

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Speaker 1: what was going on, and this is what we found.

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Speaker 1: Even then, people wouldn't believe the old story. They felt

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Speaker 1: like this was all spoken mirrors. And this got another um,

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Speaker 1: I guess, another dose of high octane conspiratorial fuel just

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Speaker 1: uh like during the during the investigation in the belief

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Speaker 1: that they were abandoned soldiers or remaining POW's got a

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Speaker 1: new burst of high octane conspiratorial fuel. At a summit June,

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Speaker 1: Boris Yeltson was talking to NBC News and this was

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Speaker 1: reported by the New York Times, and apparently he said

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Speaker 1: that some Americans captured during the Vietnam War were apparently

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Speaker 1: transferred from Hannoi to labor camps in the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: and he added that some of them may still be alive.

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Speaker 1: At that time, possibly in psychiatric hospitals. Ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: we have a clip from that conversation. Yes, Nant, Yes,

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Speaker 1: Mr Yeltson. For years that have been rooms in the

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Speaker 1: unit United States that American POWs from the Vietnam War

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Speaker 1: would transferred from Vietnam to the Soviet Union. Do you

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Speaker 1: know that to be true? Now archives have shown that

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Speaker 1: it is true. Some of them were transferred to the

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Speaker 1: territory of the former USSRUH, some were kept in labor games. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we don't have a complete data and we can only

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Speaker 1: surmise that some may still be alive. That is a

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Speaker 1: bomb drop right in the in the American public, in

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Speaker 1: the heart of the American consciousness, which that anatomy metaphor

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Speaker 1: doesn't check out. So don't think about it too much.

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Speaker 1: But we do want to say to have to have

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Speaker 1: a diplomat like there are at the time as the

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister at the high level for an official to

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Speaker 1: have have to say this was during glass Amost, so

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Speaker 1: kind of a peace offering to um. I do want

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Speaker 1: to win everybody out there listening to know that we

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Speaker 1: had a very in depth conversation about who should do

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Speaker 1: the exit. That's why I was trying not to crack up.

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Speaker 1: But um, you you guys would make great re enactors,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, maybe maybe we should get into

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Speaker 1: re enactments. Oh man strick at the end, Johnny dangerous strick. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: who would these soldiers have been? This is a strange thing.

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Speaker 1: And I followed up offline with some military sources to

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Speaker 1: ask about this, and it's people who would asked not

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Speaker 1: to be identified on the show. So the people I

429
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: spoke with believe that the US probably did leave some

430
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: people behind, but not not on purpose, like not as

431
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: a institutional thing. Like you don't get elected president and

432
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: then someone gives you an envelope and says, never ask

433
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: about these missing six people or something. What they said

434
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: happened is that anybody taken to the U S s R.

435
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: Who was captured would have to be a high value

436
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: intelligence agent of some sort. So maybe a company man

437
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: from the CIA, maybe military naval intelligence, because otherwise what

438
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: what would be the use of that expensive and dangerous transport,

439
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: you know, And they would probably take them by boat

440
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: instead of by plane, because if a boat goes down,

441
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot less evidence than if a plane goes down.

442
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: I can imagine it being a an implanted agent, maybe

443
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: even so specifically was captured to be taken there if possible.

444
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: I know that sounds insane, It sounds like something even

445
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: that would never happen, But I can imagine it being

446
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: like something that happens a set up, turn coat of

447
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: some way, or you know what I mean, like a

448
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: double agent. Yeah, and it's it's tough to know. It's

449
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: tough to know where someone's real allegiances lie or if

450
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: they have real allegiances, had a double double cross. Many

451
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: crosses are being doubled there. Yeah, is the quadruple across,

452
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: triple across, the quadruple across. I guess it just depends

453
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: on when you want to stop or when they stopped

454
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: believing theoretically go on crossing indefinitely and just be like

455
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: the most this the most untrustworthy person it can I think.

456
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: I think eventually they're just getting get tired of it, um,

457
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: which would be very dangerous. But and you know, a

458
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: lot of times these people, if so, we know it's

459
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: probably a small percentage of the missing people, but of

460
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: that small percentage went there, um, their lives very well

461
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: could have been a living hell, you know what I mean?

462
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Especially if they possess secrets that exist only in their

463
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: in their minds, the private secrets of one of the

464
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: world's great superpowers. That's a very dangerous collection of thoughts

465
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: to have ownership over. And because of questions like this,

466
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: right because Boris Yelson admits that there were people spirited away,

467
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: because they're continual or there they're numerous radio intercepts saying oh,

468
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: we've seen people living, or there are people in country

469
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: who say, oh, I've seen this guy is not Vietnamese.

470
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: Why is he living in this cave, you know, with

471
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: these ripped up clothes, And also to a degree in

472
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: cultural consciousness because of you know, the stories of World

473
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: War Two survivors, especially in the Japanese army, who were

474
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: living as though the war had never ended, and in

475
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: some cases didn't know it had. Because of all these cases,

476
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: it seems not impossible that there could have been people

477
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: left behind, whether purposely or accidentally, or whether it's bonds

478
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: anyone's control. But several of the privately funded expeditions by

479
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: veterans loved one survivors um several of those expeditions got

480
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: dogged by accusations of fraud. People would say, well, the

481
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: government being this big, inefficient bureaucracy is not going to

482
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: be able to effectively do this, or they don't care

483
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: because what is one human life and the great abattoir

484
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: of geopolitics. So with the best of intentions, people got

485
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: together and said, we're going to go find this, and

486
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: we're going to search either for following up on evidence

487
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: of living people or following up on evidence of remains.

488
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: And not in all cases, but in many cases you

489
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: would see stories of someone accepting a bunch of money

490
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: buying a boat and the boat never left the dock

491
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: in Thailand, and they were beguiling people. They were conning

492
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: them with the worst thing. It reminds me of our

493
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: conversation we had had before about people who claimed to

494
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: contact the dead on behalf of the living. You know,

495
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: are they are they just exploiting people sometimes or do

496
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: they really believe it? No, this is not to say,

497
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, that these missions were not genuine. Many were,

498
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: and there are people who claimed that they that they

499
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: found evidence of recent survivors. But just for perspective, let's

500
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: talk about a fairly recent hoax. That's right, the John

501
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: Hartley hoax. Um in a documentary portrayed a man claiming

502
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: to be the missing assumed dead soldier by the name

503
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: of John Hartley robertson Um And in the film, this

504
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: person met with surviving family members and convinced them he

505
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: was their relative. Later DNA test revealed that this was

506
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: not the case. And so this points to an issue

507
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: that potentially could have come from a lot of these

508
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: things that we're talking about is folks bilking relatives supposed

509
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: long lost relatives, whether out of money or support in

510
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: some way. UH. And nowadays, with you know, crowdsourcing, crowdfunding,

511
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: that's a lot easier to do than it used to be,

512
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: and it's also a lot easier to find potential marks

513
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: for this type of activity. If you want to know

514
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: more about that, documentaries specifically about John Hartley. UH. It

515
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: is called Unclaimed. It's pretty great. I remember seeing trailer

516
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: for it not long ago and getting interested in it.

517
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: It's I think when I saw it um when it

518
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: came out, I would recommend it. It's a fascinating, intriguing

519
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: story that looks at what happens when family members are

520
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: given this chance to reconnect with someone who they think

521
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: is a long lost loved one, but then it turns

522
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: out to be a nightmare. And it's one of those

523
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: things too, where put yourself in the position of a

524
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: family member like that, where someone who is for all

525
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: intents and purpose has been dead to you for years,

526
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: you're given what you see as a second chance. I mean,

527
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: who among us wouldn't maybe be a little blindsided by

528
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: that to to to to a point where maybe you

529
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: might not have your wits about you. It's a pretty

530
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: horrible thing to take advantage of someone's vulnerability like that. Well, guys,

531
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: I think one thing that plays in just about all

532
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: of this discussion is the myriad ways that in a

533
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: war zone situation people can and will be ultimately left behind.

534
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: There's a lot of conditions, a lot of variables at play.

535
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: It's some scary stuff, um, and I think we should

536
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: talk about some of that stuff. But first let's take

537
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. So, yes, you know what you're right.

538
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: One thing is for sure, a lot of people ended

539
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: up missing. A lot of American soldiers ended up missing

540
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: during the Vietnam conflict, during the war um and for

541
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: very variety of reasons, a whole bunch of reasons. So

542
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: let's look at the most likely possibilities. One is that

543
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: some men were killed, they're killed in action, and then

544
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,959
Speaker 1: their bodies are either burned or disposed of somehow by

545
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: the enemy by in this case of Viet Cong, and

546
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: they will never be found ever, probably unless you know,

547
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: a big excavation occurs, uh in the jungle somewhere buried

548
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: in unmarked graves, right ye, buried, burned, I mean, they're

549
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: all kinds of reasons. Grilla forces often wouldn't have the

550
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: capability to transport a hostage or the desire, and this

551
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: this is why death is killed in action or KIA

552
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: is the most prominent possibility. Unfortunately, and even more unfortunately,

553
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: we can't know how many of these people still missing

554
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: are in fact, you know, expired or died in this way.

555
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: Another possibility is that they deserted. And there are very

556
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: strange stories here. Um Some return to the United States

557
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: under false pretenses or false identities. So the Matt Frederick

558
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: who shipped off for comes back with the new identity,

559
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: which is what would your fake ID? I d b

560
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: oh Enrique Iglesias Jr. I like is a subtle I

561
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: would just be Esteban, Esteban. It's nice with the with

562
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: the accent mark over it. No, oh, there's a story

563
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: to Esteban No within question mark sure, and I of

564
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: course would be Max Powers, Comma asked her. Not with

565
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: the secret that's you know, blends in. But some others

566
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: escaped to nearby countries like Australia, right, or a different

567
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: neighboring country, or went to Canada, and some indeed found

568
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: homes inside Vietnam. This means that there is a possibility,

569
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: of very small possibility, that some former soldiers living in

570
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: Southeast Asia simply don't want to be found. And we

571
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: have to consider how much time has passed now, right,

572
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: So these people would be on the older end of

573
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: the human spectrum. There's one example of how things kind

574
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: of go off the rails and this and that's a

575
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: Vietnam era legend that we learned about in the course

576
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: of our research. It's a place called Soul City. This rumor,

577
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: this was rumored to be a district in suburban Saigon

578
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: that was the domain of many US deserters, mainly African American,

579
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: and that they became a drug a drug empire essentially

580
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: running heroin, racketeering, weapons, prostitution, and it was an enclave. Officially,

581
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: this has not been confirmed, so we we can't speak

582
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know about you guys, but I

583
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: was not in Vietnam, so we can't speak to the

584
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: veracity of that. If anyone listening has firsthand experience or

585
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: can confirm it, we would like to hear about not

586
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: just that, but other enclaves, if they were around. Yes, yes,

587
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: and there's and and also to what degree this stuff

588
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: was true, was it actually how big? Was it actually

589
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: if it existed? Or was it just a couple of

590
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: people who were entrepreneurs. And there's another. A lot of

591
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: the reality here is unfortunate. When Saigon fell on April

592
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, North Vietnamese forces swept through the country

593
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: and through other cities like wildfire, and they did not

594
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: take prisoners. Did they find deserters probably most likely. Were

595
00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: they friendly to those deserters, probably not us. So this

596
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: would have ended some of those some of those um communities,

597
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: those you know, even more secret communities. And this leads

598
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: us to our conclusion. The current US position is that

599
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: there were no purposely abandoned soldiers, and efforts to locate

600
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: the remains of those who died in country continue with

601
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: full international support today, so support from the Laoisian, Cambodian

602
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: and Vietnam and Vietnamese government. Now there's something to consider here, guys.

603
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 1: We haven't we kind of touched on but not really.

604
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: What about the missions that only what how many people

605
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: would know at the top of the CIA if it

606
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: was a secret mission like compartmentalized intelligence. Yeah, I mean

607
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: a handful of human beings would know if there are

608
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: secret missions going on. And you can almost guarantee that

609
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: this was occurring during wartime. There the CIA is going

610
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: to be having special operations that nobody knows about, the

611
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: black black bag, black black ops. And this doesn't have

612
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: to just be um, this doesn't just have to be

613
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: the CIA's involvement. This could also be naval and military

614
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: intelligence right deep cover stuff or deep incursions. And also,

615
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: let's consider how many other popular conspiracy theories this is

616
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: touching on, which would be what if some of those

617
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: missions involved drug trafficking to finance something illegal that needed

618
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: plausible deniability. So we were also talking off air. Um Noah,

619
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: a marine who now works in I T didn't have

620
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: experience in Vietnam, but brought up a very interesting point

621
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: that I had not considered there. When I asked this

622
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: marine about the likelihood, I wanted to hear what service

623
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: members thought of the likelihood of purposefully abandoned POW s

624
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 1: m a's, and this marine said that they totally believe

625
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: it could happen, and that we should also look into

626
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: the current assets of the U. S military around the world,

627
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: estimated as to be in one D and thirty five

628
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: countries in some capacity, who are all sort of unnamed assets,

629
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: you know, uh, functioning and in g O or in

630
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: a consular position. Who if the if their cover gets blown,

631
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: have to provide their own exit strategy and they do

632
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: not know they do not exist? Um, yeah, and would

633
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: they Would those people be counted in those numbers? Right?

634
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: That's that's a crucial question. And then there's there's another

635
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: question that we kind of talked about, uh off air,

636
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: which is sort of motivation. Right. Well, I mean, I

637
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: don't know. In all this, I've been wondering what you

638
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: guys think would be the most compelling reason that the

639
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: US government would a purposefully leave their own troops behind

640
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: and then be try to cover up. I guess to

641
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: cover up is inherent in doing the bad thing. So

642
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: maybe we can skip to but why, what's to what end?

643
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: But we're talking six separate presidential administrations, right, and that's

644
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: the very definition of a of a conspiracy, or it

645
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: could just be deep state cover up. But why, Matt, Yeah,

646
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: what's the motivation? That's I could I could imagine a

647
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: couple of things. So in the short term, in the

648
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: short game, if there's a desire for political leverage and

649
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: post war negotiations, then that could have occurred. But the

650
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: Paris Peace Accords had explicitly contained a framework for resolving

651
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: POW situations for the U. S side, then it's quite

652
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: possible that and there were things that would put that

653
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: would make Uncle Sam's hands too dirty. And then they

654
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: war crimes and that they cut they cut these people loose,

655
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: or they just didn't look into it very deeply. And

656
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: you know, we're talking a lot about We're talking a

657
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: lot about very murky, very questionable things on both sides.

658
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: Especially if there are people who are alive, who are

659
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: who were held and rendered invisible to history. That's a

660
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: very dangerous thing and it can happen wrisily than people think.

661
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: It's not just something that happened under the reign of Stalin.

662
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: It can happen today two people, uh and two and

663
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: and honestly for not just the black bag operative types

664
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: uh in in the U. S. Army, but for anyone

665
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: UM whom have died or been captured or disappeared from

666
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: the official narrative history to these unnamed heroic women and

667
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: men across the planet in every nation. We do hope

668
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: you and your loved ones find peace, because often these

669
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: people are used as pollens, and I think that could

670
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: be a motivation. Are you guys familiar with the my

671
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: LII massacre? Unfortunately? Yeah, I mean so there was actually

672
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: a uh task force I guess you could say, established

673
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group in the wake of

674
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: photographic evidence of what was thought to be a massacre

675
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 1: of women and children. Uh. It's the kind of thing

676
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: you see depicted in some of these films we're talking about,

677
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: like in Platoon, there's a sequence where some of this

678
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: goes down, and also in UM uh Apocalypse now UM

679
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 1: specifically Implatune though, but anyhow, uh, you know, and the

680
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: purpose of this group was to investigate emerging claims of

681
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: war crimes by US military during Vietnam. And you know,

682
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: if there was a reason to perhaps let some people

683
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: stay lost. Maybe some folks saw some things and could

684
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: have corroborated some things and had some attacks of conscience

685
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: that would have maybe made Uncle Sam, as you said,

686
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: Ben have a little bit more blood on their hands

687
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: than they wanted. And politically, you know, that could have

688
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: been bad. It was a very unpopular war. We were

689
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: there for a very very long time, far longer than

690
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: we intended to be, and we lost a lot of people,

691
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: and you know, it was just a very unpopular place

692
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: to be and you know, there was a lot of

693
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: clean up that had to be done in order to

694
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: kind of wash our hands of some of that. And

695
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, this kind of stuff, these kind of stories

696
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: not exactly helping with the pr narrative, right right, well said,

697
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: And to Matt's point, you know, this doesn't have to

698
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: be an entire government. This could be compartmentalized intelligence deep state.

699
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's distressing, but at certain levels, at

700
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: certain institutions, it only takes a few people to keep

701
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: powerful secrets. So so it's more again of a black box.

702
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: And we could be in a situation where hundreds of

703
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: thousands of people are doing their level best, like the

704
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: army has special branches that go out into that part

705
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: of the world every year with full cooperation to find remains,

706
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: and they find them. That's the thing. They're They're still

707
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: finding bodies. But the question is that somebody else obstructed

708
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: and so do our presidents aware of it? Because UM

709
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 1: the Barack Obama administration also pressed for further cooperation investigating

710
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 1: into these am i A cases h during a during

711
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: another summit, So within recent years and at present, it

712
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: seems some probably did die in combat, some probably did dessert,

713
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: and some are probably living or have lived under assumed identity,

714
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: under assumed identities in somewhere in the world. Many of

715
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: those in that third group may have already died of

716
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: natural causes, living an entirely different life from the one

717
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: they left behind in the jungle. As for the prisoners,

718
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: no matter how much we go back and forth, we

719
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: may never know for sure. You can go and find

720
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 1: a wealth of live sightings and a wealth of people

721
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: insisting they've done this. But Bobby Garwood was a controversial

722
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: returning figure. And UH the case that we mentioned earlier,

723
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 1: the Hartley hoax, it did turn out to be a hoax.

724
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: The DNA didn't match. UM have added fuel to both camps,

725
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: the people who believe that they were abandoned POWs and

726
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: the people who believe that there were not. And so

727
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: we close our episode today. We want to hear from you.

728
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: What is what in your experience is plausible here? Is it?

729
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: Is it possible that the US cut operation cut servicemen

730
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: and operator operators loose to preserve what was seen as

731
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: greater stability at the time. Is this conspiracy theory that

732
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: people are milking for political gain? Um? And yes, we

733
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: have not touched on any of the other Vietnam related conspiracies.

734
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 1: The legends of real life Colonel Kurtz is allah heart

735
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: of Darkness, Apocalypse now the effects of Agent Orange and

736
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: more so right to us and let us know what

737
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: we should cover. If you do want to write to us,

738
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: you can find us on Facebook where we are Conspiracy Stuff,

739
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: or on Twitter also conspiracy Stuff. You can find us

740
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: on Instagram Conspiracy Stuff Show. And if you don't like

741
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: that stuff, you can always send us an email. Uh,

742
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 1: but we'll we'll tell you how to do that later. Yes. Yes,

743
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: First it's time for shut at Corners. Our first shout

744
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: out comes from Carlton. Carlton says in your recent episode

745
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: you mentioned g and I have a quick and dirty

746
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: way for pretty much anyone to feel it. You say, yeah,

747
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: so dirty, thank you, Carlton. Uh. Carlton says, First, you

748
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: should sit upright or stand Okay, I'm gonna do this

749
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: as I say it, all right, with both feet pointed

750
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: straight out forward at your shoulders length. Okay. Second, you

751
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: need to reach out your hands and palms facing towards

752
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: each other, so palms face seeing each other, hands out.

753
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: The elbow should be bent at about forty five degrees,

754
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: so there's ninety let's do now. Your fingers should form

755
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: a claw pointed to each other. Then you close your eyes,

756
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: calm your breath, and slowly close the space in between

757
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: your hands, as if you're holding an imaginary apple sized sphere. Now,

758
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: if you're calm enough, you will feel that your fingertips

759
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 1: already felt pressure, but not because of direct contact. If

760
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: you reach this step, then you can move the entire

761
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: palm back and forth to experience an odd feeling similar

762
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: to the repellent force of two magnets. It almost sounds

763
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: like you're starting a Kamya maya or you know, a

764
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: fireball can style. Yeah, how do you can style. That's

765
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: really cool. It's interesting because it ties into the one

766
00:51:55,120 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: of the largely unacknowledged senses of the human body, propri reception. Yes, right,

767
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: the sense of where your limbs are in space when

768
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: you're not looking at them. And I got up and

769
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: tried it. I think I'm gonna have to do it

770
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: when I'm not shotgunning so much coffee. Yeah, and you

771
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: know we're recording a podcast, but thank you, Carlton. We

772
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: have that now. Now you have that, you the listener

773
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: of this voice, and uh, let's all try it together

774
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: sometime or at least separately, and then come back and yeah,

775
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: let's try and right to us and let us know. Everybody,

776
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: give everybody, give Carlton's technique a shot, and let us

777
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: know how it works out for you. I'm going to

778
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: try it some more later when we're off air. Our

779
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: second shout out today comes from Andrew. Andrew says, Hi, guys,

780
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: I think that the I think the conspiracy that the

781
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: Russian version of nine eleven Russian apartment bombings was really

782
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: a false flag operation orchestrated by and for Putin. That's

783
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin to rise to power, and that would make

784
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 1: for a really great podcast and a timely when given

785
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: all the talk about Russia and Putin these days. Anyhow,

786
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: keep up the good work. That is crazy. By the way,

787
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about this until Andrew wrote to us,

788
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: and I just did some quick searching on the subject

789
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: to see what it was all about. I'd never heard

790
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 1: of it. It's I think three separate cities. They got bombed,

791
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 1: like four apartment complexes or more, all around the same time,

792
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: and it was all blamed on certain groups and it

793
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: started groups. Yeah, and it started the church another Chechen conflict.

794
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: And apparently it really it really did help uh rise

795
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: Putin too power or at least somewhat. Yeah, we'll have

796
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: to look into that. Finally, we have a shout out

797
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: from Philippa Philippa Um either either one of those not

798
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: either one of the two, probably, but I'm throwing them

799
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: both out there just to cover my basis. UM. My

800
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: husband isn't what you'd call psychic, but as gut feelings

801
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: are correct, well that's what I would call psychic. But

802
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. Uh. He also has an annoying habit

803
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 1: of knowing what I'm going to say before I say it,

804
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: even if it's totally off topic, and he can predict

805
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: who he'll see that day. He works in a record shop,

806
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: and if he hasn't seen a regular customer for a while,

807
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: he'll usually know before he starts work that they will

808
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: come by that day. He also has a ghost who

809
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: follows him around. Yeah, that's what it says here, a

810
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,959
Speaker 1: ghost who follows him around, And numerous people have seen

811
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: weird stuff happen when they've been with him. Well, here's

812
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: to keeping it, keeping it interesting, keeping it fresh and

813
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: weird in your relationship. Uh. It sounds like an interesting guy.

814
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: And I would love to hear more if anyone has

815
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: clairvoyant partners out there. Um, much more than just finishing

816
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: each other's sandwiches. Uh. We want to hear about that

817
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, because I I don't know anyone like that.

818
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: I often, Um, I think I know what my girlfriend's

819
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: about to say, and uh, and and stumble into trying

820
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 1: to to say it for her, and she usually just

821
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: shoots me a dirty look because I'm wrong and it's rude. Yeah,

822
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: it turns into you trying to man splain something exactly

823
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: her own thoughts. I'm also interested to know Philippa Philippa Philippa.

824
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: I think I'm also interested to know if your husband

825
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: predicted that this listener mail would be read out loud. Oh,

826
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: I can imagine it. Right now he wakes up, honey,

827
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: turned on the podcast box conspiracy talking about right now

828
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: this moment. That is not what Philippe Philippa's husband sounds like.

829
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: She also but she says she's from rural southwest to England,

830
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: by the way, and she says there was a wart

831
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: charmer in her neighborhood, in her town, wart charmer who

832
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: could charm the worts off you. Is that the same

833
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: as charming the pants off you? Exact same thing. That's

834
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 1: a pants charmer, I believe, not to split hairs or

835
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: or pats words. Well, this concludes our gosh, and this

836
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: concludes our episode today, but not hopefully knock on wood,

837
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: our show itself. We will be back next week. What

838
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: are we covering next week? Do we have a little

839
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: bit of a teaser we could give people? Well, next

840
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: week we're covering delicious, delicious yet deadly deadly sugar. M Yes,

841
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: you're like, well, now at first it's so it's like, yes,

842
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: it's sickly sweet, and there is a conspiracy afoot, not

843
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: a theory. If you would like to know more, please

844
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: tune in, and in the meantime go easy on the sodas,

845
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: just in case you don't want anyone to be listening

846
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: to a spittal. That was a dark way to end it,

847
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: all right, so right to us. We are conspiracy at

848
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. M h.